/lit/ - Literature

>>18531376
The fact that the Quran is meant to correct what is said in those books implies that the previous scriptures were corrupted. When the Quran claims that Jesus wasn’t killed or that he’s not God, it’s implied that the previous scriptures are wrong and corrupted.

Revelation (emanation) only works one way. It can't contradict itself and doesn't.

>>18531376
the thing I find funniest about Islam is that it basically accepts all Judaic premises and effectively the entirety of the Old Testament is the anticipation of the Messiah, the man who will crush the serpent's head in Genesis, a proto-Messiah in Exodus, Kings, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Obadiah, Zechariah, Malachi and so on, so then Jesus comes, and Christians see him as the fulfillment of that promise, and he who brings salvation to all of the world and he who sits at the right hand of God in heaven
Islam meanwhile accepts that Jesus is this anticipated messiah (without knowing really anything about the significance of the word), but then this Messiah, the man who's coming was anticipated for some 4000 years, has now been overshadowed by a merchant in Arabia who wasn't foretold in the OT in any form whatsoever, the Messianic King becomes a secondary character to a merchant turned militaristic leader

>>18531376
>qur'an is a poorly written and terrible mimic of the other abrahamic religions
>copes with this by saying other people "corrupted the scripture"
lmao. no wonder why the only thing muslims even do is try to brainlessly recruit people.

What is it with the incessant Muslim propaganda on /lit/ lately?

>>18531488
The entire religion of Islam centers solely around trying to convert people. There's a couple of Muslim autists who keep trying to do this and several anons trolling them for a little over a month now.

>>18531491
Why on 4chan? I'm surprised they can even operate a computer.

>>18531479
>qur'an is a poorly written
You haven't read it

>>18531495
They have pretty extensive networks, at least where Islam autism is concerned. Muslims in general are pretty cringeworthy for most people outside of the religion and Middle Eastern culture (holding hands, bizarre greetings, emoji spamming etc) but the Mossad runs a lot of the fronts for the "Jihadist" groups and recruits a lot of young moron Muslims into car bombing a Christmas market etc. probably what OP is after.

>>18531468
True.
Why would i be a Muslim when Muhammad wasn't the messiah. Makes no sense.

>>18531468
>basically accepts all Judaic premises
Wrong. Islam only posits the phantom of the Judaic religion because the Jews messed with scripture so much the original Jewish religion is unrecognizable. One thing about you Christians that I don’t understand is that you know the Jews were killing Prophets yet you think changing some words is too much for them?

>>18531650
If God didn't send Muhammad (saw), and you found out on the Day of Judgment that the Gospel writers corrupted the message of Jesus and that the early Christians bastardized his religion and his entire mission and went to extremes with the trinity and the incarnation, you'd ask God why He didn't send anybody to tell you.

>>18531468
did you just BTFO'D all muslims and shitlam?

>>18531701
You speak of the Day of Judgment like is some physical meeting above the clouds lmao. Salafi detected.

>>18531794
It's definitely going to be a physical meeting considering that Allah says time and time again in the Quran that our bodies are going to be resurrected. I wouldn't make any assumptions about how we and Allah are going to communicate though. The Day of Judgment could be an experience separate in both the flesh and the soul.

>>18531405
>he’s not God, it’s implied that the previous scriptures are wrong and corrupted
Here's the thing though, nowhere in the Scriptures can we find Jesus saying 'the Trinity'. If Christians were evil enough to corrupt the words of the Messiah, why wouldn't they put those words in their Books and avoid 3 centuries of disputes on the nature of the Messiah?
More funnily, why would they corrupt their own Books and leave the OT untouched? Catholics say that the Jews are their witnesses, since they kept their Torah so we can just compare jewish and Christian Scriptures. Who is such a Witness for the holy Quran? It was compiled in its current form after the death of their Prophet, just like the written Gospels were never read and approved by Jesus. Muslims are too quick to assume whatever suits their propaganda, negative for everyone and positive for them. What if we were to find Syriac texts from which the holy Quran took inspiration? (This promising hypothesis is currently being researched btw)

>>18531866
Wrong again.
>if Christians were evil enough to corrupt the words of the Messiah, why wouldn't they put those words in their books?
not an argument. this is an either/or fallacy because you are disregarding the third option (that the trinity was simply an articulation of the confusing heresies given by John)
>why would they corrupt their own books and leave the OT untouched?
The OT was not untouched. We know this because even the New Testament had additions and subtractions done to it in its scribal history. Less than a hundred years passed and the ending of Mark was added. Now imagine what the Jews could do over the span of a thousand years.
>Who is such a witness for the Holy Quran
your witness is your own scriptures because the essence of monotheism and prophetic succession is still contained within it. yet you turn away because of man-god doctrine.
>It was compiled in its current form after the death of their Prophet,
The Prophet personally oversaw the ordering of the chapters. The thing with the Gospels and the Quran is that the Quran was sent down and passed around orally while four shmucks from out of nowhere sat down, wrote your bible, and couldn't even be fucked to title their writings.
>Syriac texts
LMAO

>>18531468
Actually Islam argues that Jesus only came for Jews. He himself said that in the Bible, when he met a non-Jewish woman at the well.

Muhammad came for everyone.

>>18532314
Read Daniel, Jonah, and Matthew 12 the sign of jomah

>>18532370
I have

now what?

>>18532374
you are now wrong

>>18532381
No, YOU are wrong.

>>18532389
(Psalm 22, the psalm that Jesus referenced before his death on the cross)
The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the LORD!
All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the LORD;
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before him.
For dominion belongs to the LORD,
and he rules over the nations. (Psalm 22:26-29)

>34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

> You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

>s. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment and condemn the people living today,[c] because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. But look—something greater than Jonah is here! 42

>>18532424
Jesus went from there to the area of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that area came out and began shouting, “Lord, Son of David, please help me! My daughter has a demon inside her, and she is suffering very much.”

23 But Jesus did not answer her. So the followers came to him and said, “Tell her to go away. She keeps crying out and will not leave us alone.”

24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people[a] of Israel.”

>>18532440
oh wow I like that one anon let me continue you it for you

25 Then the woman came over to Jesus and bowed before him. She said, “Lord, help me!”

26 He answered her with this saying: “It is not right to take the children’s bread and give it to the dogs.”

27 The woman said, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the pieces of food that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! You will get what you asked for.” And right then the woman’s daughter was healed.

>>18532453
Isa's (as) main focus was the jews. Muhammad's (saw) main focus was mankind.

“Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6)

"The Prophet said: Every prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind" (Sahih Muslim V.1 B.7 NO. 331)

>wikiislam

>>18532518
unanswered as expected

>>18532589
lol you can't just disregard the fact that Jesus was concerned primarily with the Jews and not mankind as a whole like your dogma states because of implicit allusions in a book with questionable authenticity. If Muslims were do to the same you'd call them out for being wishy-washy yet you participate in these shadow-game charades with Isa and the Pentateuch.

Islam a cult leader prank gone way out of hand.

Muhammad gets revelations saying he needs to fuck certain women, like his adopted son's wife.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW0CO2F-q60&t=9s

>>18532727
they were divorced

Why are muslims so easily offended? I swear they are the touchiest and quickest to anger of any religion.

If you blaspheme Christians, they'll generally patiently try to explain things to you. If you blaspheme Jews, they'll laugh along with you. If you blaspheme Buddhism, they'll just keep peacefully meditating. If you blaspheme Islam, the muzzies pull out their scimitars and AK-47's and start screaming about muh respect, muh prophet, blah blah blah.

Is it just low-IQ ayrab genetics or what? I swear muslims are by far the most butthurt, sensitive, easily trolled religion on the planet.

>>18532775
centuries of inbreeding + low iq religion

>>18532626
Your understanding is what happens when somebody only learns about the New Testament from people doing daw'ah and deliberately or ignorantly misrepresenting its message.

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

"And [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

"esus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

"And [Jesus] told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, BEGINNING in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:44-48)

"He says: “It is not enough for You to be My Servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the protected ones of Israel. I will also make You a light for the nations, to bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)

>>18532626
Your lack of understanding is what happens when somebody only learns about the New Testament from people doing daw'ah, deliberately or ignorantly misrepresenting its message.

>"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

>"And [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

>"Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And [Jesus] told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, BEGINNING in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:44-48)

>"He says: “It is not enough for You to be My Servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the protected ones of Israel. I will also make You a light for the nations, to bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)

>>18532775
muslim fragility...the same way they need to constantly remind themselves and beg God that muhammad is in heaven (pbuh)

and they only say it for other prophets to reaffirm that muhammad is indeed on their level...violent knee-jerk responses reveal a deep seated insecurity and doubt

>>18531915
>We know this because even the New Testament had additions and subtractions done to it in its scribal history.
Where the proof at ahmed

>>18532842
fabrications! lies! distortions! God sent Jesus to the Jews only. Anything that has to do with the Holy Spirit or the universal scapegoatism of the crucifixion you can chalk up to later fan-fiction by raving extremists who never knew Jesus, anything that coaligns with the narrative in the Quran must be, by essence, true because the spirit of the lost religion of Jesus can only be fulfilled through Prophetic idealist monotheism in a middle path between polytheism and corporealism.

>>18532907
top kek

>>18532907
dubs and this poster blows up

*spends 15 minutes thinking they're really smart by establishing some meme philosophical definitions before presenting an absolute garbage argument*

>>18532907
>idealist
I take this back as idealism is mostly unattainable and is unsatiated aesthetic desire while you can accomplish tawhid through singling Allah out amongst all the false gods, doctrines and authorities. The trinity is pseudo-monotheism because although by theory it is affirming the One, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are singled out separately in the psyche so the connection between meditation and divine unity is disconnected.

>>18532950
I wonder if the muslims here watched this guy and thought "wow btfoing the kafir on the internet is easy". Or maybe it's a general muslim thing to be like that. Deliberately ignoring what an opponent actually says seems to be a typical tactic of theirs.

>>18532985
>wow btfoing the kafir on the internet is easy
it really is. and most of the people debating hijab and dawah resort to ad hominem attacks against the prophet which can be ignored through socratic elenchi

>>18532985
Yeah, and then when it's apparent they're losing they just act disrespectful or make threats.

Here is a good example of what I'm talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5tAqroRftw

>>18532950
These two would beat you up both physically and mentally.

>>18532907
the state of islamic apologetics is so sad that i can't even tell if this is supposed to be a serious argument, or some guy pretending to be a typical muslim

>>18533066
>muh quick and butthurt resort to violence and bullying
every single time

>islam is akshually: the religion
oh boy

>>18533077
It is a serious argument bud. If there was just a drop of poison in a well, would you drink it? We know there was corruption in the New Testament. Come to the bountiful well for monotheists called Islam. The yoke is light, and you will be returned to Allah who is pleased with you because you didn't compartmentalize His essence into distinct divine units or liken Him to His creation or believe in divinization.

>>18533141
Good with a few alterations > bad with no alterations

>>18533163
any change given to God's words is immediately poison. thus the well must be abandoned and another one must be sought. come over here, searcher of truth, and you will find the Absolute

>>18533141
>We know there was corruption in the New Testament.
citation needed
>you didn't compartmentalize His essence into distinct divine units
not how the trinity works
>liken Him to His creation
not present anywhere in the New Testament or apostolic theology
>believe in divinization
you don't understand what theosis or divinization means
>>18533246
>any change given to God's words is immediately poison
there are multiple variations of the qur'an - i guess we should throw it out. "holes in the standard narrative" lol

>>18533246
>any change given to God's words is immediately poison
good, throw away the quran then because there are different recitations

>>18533330
cope

>>18533340
the amount of cognitive dissonance you must have is astounding. it's okay to have a bit of holes in your standard narrative, nobody will judge you until you start judging others ;) just don't think too hard about it habibi

>>18533308
the fact that you are asking for a citation for changes in the New Testament is hilarious. also i've already said that trinity is mono in theory but in practice it is polytheism because meditation is divided upon the divine.
>there are multiple variations of the quran
the qira'at are not changes but are separate recitations that Allah sent to Muhammad (saw). this is multitudes different than the situation with the gospels, where there is no original manuscript to reference, and there is certainty of the scribal influence on the gospels.

Abu Juhaym reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The Quran is recited in seven ways. Do not argue over the Quran, for arguing over the Quran is an act of unbelief.”

Source: Musnad Aḥmad 17199

>>18533354
>Do not argue over the Quran, for arguing over the Quran is an act of unbelief
>shut it down

>>18533358
>but in practice it is polytheism because meditation is divided upon the divine
cool opinion
>the qira'at are not changes but are separate recitations
what a cope lol, the meaning of passages with variants are often completely and irreconcilably changed

once again, holes in the standard narrative is fine - as long as you don't think too hard about it, habibi

>"O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you." (S. 33:53)
alhamdulillah, wallahi this verse about muhammad being beta was written in the eternal qur'an in the sky before the world was created, inshallah

>>18533416
>often completely and irreconcilably changed
The differences between the authentic seven Ahruf are valid because they have been given a divine stamp of approval since they are all correct. Also your pic related is of the Sana’a manuscripts which are not based on the original Uthmanic text that we have today of which we can trace back to the Prophet. Can’t say the same for you guys LOL
also
>God being involved in the personal life of His link with Mankind is bad because…..it’s bad ok!

>>18533504
>The differences between the authentic seven Ahruf are valid because they have been given a divine stamp of approval since they are all correct
>>18533246
any change given to God's words is immediately poison

>>18531866
John 14:8-10
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Also John 10:30
The Father and I are one.”

>>18532775
IS BECAUSE SALAFISM, I SAID THIS 1000 TIMES ON THIS BOARD, SOME MUSLIMS FROM HERE DEFENDED SALAFISM SO IS NOT JUST AN INSULT.

EVERYTIME YOU SEE MUSLIMS WHO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING FROM THE QURAN IS LITERAL, OR THAT THEY VIOLENTLY ATTACK OTHER RELIGIONS WITH RETARDED ARGUMENTS, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT THEY ARE SALAFIS.

ISIS AND OTHER RETARDED GROUPS LIKE THAT WERE INSPIRED BY SALAFISM.

HIDE SALAFI THREADS.

IGNORE SALAFI POSTS.

DO NOT REPLY TO SALAFI POSTERS.

>>18531376
Muslim niggas be like
>the christians and jews changed their scriptures even though they resemble their earliest manuscripts and there has never been any discovery of “incorrupt” scriptures
While also being like
>yeah the quran is the unchanged literal word of god even though there are several different yet valid versions that contain enough differences in vocabulary and grammar to potentially affect islamic doctrine, but we’ll just all use the cairo version and pretend the others don’t exist

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%CA%BCat

>>18532314
>He himself said that in the Bible, when he met a non-Jewish woman at the well
That’s where he revealed that he didn’t just come for the Jews lmao

>>18533750
Based. Why are they everywhere? They are like sjws of Islam.

>>18533504
>God being involved in the personal life of His link with Mankind is bad because…..it’s bad ok!
I just want to level with you, friend. Do you honestly read Sura 33:53 and think "yeah, God Himself wrote this verse in heaven before the world was created"? It doesn't stick out to you at all as if it were a random Arabian guy using supposed "divine revelations" to manage interpersonal relationships because he was too shy to say it himself? Like, you can say with a straight face that in God's supposed final revelation to mankind, He included a verse about leaving Muhammad's house after eating?
It just makes no sense to me. It seems so obvious that it is a false religion looking at it from the outside - there has to be some severe cognitive dissonance for you to honestly say that, yes, before the universe had been created, God had written on divine celestial tablets "leave Muhammad's house after eating, because he's too shy to say it himself".

islam gives you resting bitch face

>>18533750
amerishit "muslim" spotted

>>18533847
This. Only hardcore terrorist ISIS Islam is real Islam. If you're not burning lukewarm Muslims alive in cages, then you don't believe in the Quran and Sunnah.

>>18533820
>Why are they everywhere?
They are the result of british colonialism, their interpretations are very similar to the Protestant ones.

>>18533825
Not the anon you were replying to. I got curious looked up the Study Qur'an's commentary and this is what it says:
>The first part of this verse, known as the “Veiling Verse,” was reportedly revealed to clarify proper conduct with the Prophet. Anas ibn Mālik said, “When the Messenger of God married Zaynab bint Jaḥsh, he invited people to a wedding ceremony. People ate and then remained in their seats talking to each other. The Prophet acted as if he was preparing himself to leave, but people did not take the hint. He then left the room and people left with him, except for three people who remained sitting. When the Prophet returned and found them still sitting, he went out again. When they saw this, the three men left. I went and informed the Messenger of God that they had left. He returned and entered his room. I wanted to enter with him, but he drew the curtain between us. Then God revealed [this verse]” (IK, Q, Sy, Ṭ, W). If you are invited, enter is also understood as a general injunction to accept invitations from other Muslims, as in a saying attributed to the Prophet, “When one of you invites his brother, be it for a wedding or something else, he should respond” (IK). In the immediate context, God shrinks not from the truth refers to God’s telling others to respect the Prophet’s privacy (JJ). More broadly, it means that God does not prevent truth from being manifested and clarified (Q).
>That men must ask the Prophet’s wives from behind a veil indicates that, just as it is forbidden for a man to be alone in an intimate manner with a woman to whom he is not related, so too it is forbidden for a man to look upon the wives of the Prophet. This injunction may be a clarification, lest anyone think that the Prophet’s wives’ status as “mothers of the believers” would allow for the same familiarity that a man would have with his biological mother. The prohibition against marrying the Prophet’s wives is linked by some to the prohibition against marrying one’s mother (4:23) and against marrying those women whom your fathers married (4:22), since the Prophet is closer to the believers than they are to themselves, and his wives are their mothers (33:6). This may also be because the Prophet’s wives are believed to continue to be his wives in the Hereafter (IK, Q).
This seems reasonable and avoids literalistic interpretation. If you are still curious (and not just intending to make pedantic objections like a sophist) I could later look up to see if any Shia Imam has said anything significant about this verse.

>>18533879
actually, there's a hadith against setting people on fire

>>18533902
This is true, and the funny thing is that they hate the West. Is just hilarious.

>>18533903
>avoids literalistic interpretation
That's my point - if you take it at face value (which is how it is presented), you would have to already be completely brainwashed to not see that it is a fake "revelation" from an Arabian man who was too shy to tell his guests to leave, and so he had to pretend that God said it. You find things like this all throughout the Qur'an - this is just one example.

>I could later look up to see if any Shia Imam has said anything significant about this verse.
Why would I care about what a Shi'ite imam would have to say about anything Islam-related, when most Muslims in the world consider them heretics who should be persecuted? It's like asking if I would like to hear what a Seventh-Day Adventist says about a verse in the New Testament.

The main issue persists with both Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims - the Qur'an. It is a book riddled with holes, inconsistencies, and obvious human-made insertions. At the end of the day, it is a pseudo-Abrahamic fanfiction based upon a mixture of apocryphal Christian writings, and the hidden desires of a warlord who found a smart way to get people to follow him.

>>18533962
if anything christcuckoldry is "pseudo-abrahamic", christcuck

>>18533970
>can't answer arguments, starts seething about Jesus Christ
This is the coping and cognitive dissonance I was waiting for.

>>18533981
christcuckoldry is cognitive dissonance the religion

>>18533962
Shias believe there is an outward meaning to the Qur'an, - called the Silent Qur'an,- which is basically the literal presentation; and there is the inward meaning, - the Speaking Qur'an, - which is the esoteric meaning that only the Imam can present. That is why Imams' sayings about the verses of the Qur'an are of highest importance to the Shia. If you restrict yourself to the Silent Qur'an, you are missing out on the depth of Islamic spirituality.
>Why would I care
Something being accepted by the majority doesn't make it right. You are basically looking only at the simplistic religion of the masses and acting surprised when you see it is simplistic. Why don't you seek out the best of Islam instead?

>>18533996
>has no argument, just restates what I've said and says "no, u"
Is this the pinnacle of Islamic daw'ah? Impressive...

>>18534010
n-nani! he name dropped the arabic word... masaka...

>>18534002
So you're saying that of the people who believe in God's supposed final revelation to humanity, ~90% of them have it completely wrong, and the remaining 10% don't agree with each other, leading to Akhbaris, Usuli, Shaykhi, Alawites, Alevites, Bektashites, Alians, Hurufis, Zaydi, Tayyibites, Alavites, Dawoodites, Sulaymanites, Hafizites, Khoja, and Satpanths? Shi'ites are basically the protestants of Islam.

>>18534061
>of them have it completely wrong
Not completely, but partially. They reject the Imamate, which is a pillar of Islam, but they don't reject other doctrines, so they are still believing Muslims.
>leading to...
>Shi'ites are basically the protestants of Islam.
There is a difference between the Shia and the sects you namedropped (and repeated a few with slightly different spellings). The Shia existed before the Prophet's death (after the Ghadir sermon), and the split mainly occurred after his death. They are literally one of the two oldest currents of Islam, while the other sects you mentioned are from diversions that occurred centuries after the Prophet. Protestantism is a relatively modern invention and completely unrelated to the discussion.

I don't care about convincing you though. Those who will be guided do not need my convincing.

>>18534114
>Not completely, but partially.
They say they same about whatever sect you're in. If God really intended Islam to be the religion of the world, the Sunni are a far more likely candidate, considering they are the vast majority of Muslims in the world.
>(and repeated a few with slightly different spellings)
The Alawites, Alevites and the Alavites are three different sects.
>I don't care about convincing you though
I can definitely see that - you're definitely not making a case as to why I should follow the teachings of a pedophile warlord with 10+ wives from Arabia, much less whatever small sect you belong to.

Reject the false prophets, and come to Muhammad's lord and judge, Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

>>18533902
Now that you say it it makes perfect sense. Never thought of it this way.

>>18533529
any change made by man, dingus

>>18533825
Surah 33:53 actually has more layers than you give it credit for. It speaks to the humility of the Prophet, who wasn't afraid to tell the murderous masses that everything they knew was a lie. He was as shy as a virgin when it came to his brothers and sisters in faith. "Allah is not shy to bring a fly as a sign". Also I don't see the big deal considering Muhammad (saw) is the most beloved human being to Allah. You think if someone were the most beloved human being to God, God Himself wouldn't personally oversee their affairs out of His great love for that person?

>>18534198
mediocre and banal platitudes

>>18534174
>moves le goalposts
>akshually these changes are made by god haha convenient innit?

>>18534198
>I don't see the big deal considering Muhammad (saw) is the most beloved human being to Allah
source: Muhammad
>You think if someone were the most beloved human being to God, God Himself wouldn't personally oversee their affairs out of His great love for that person?
Ignoring the fact that God personally oversees the affairs of every human being, the problem is that Muslims claim this verse about Muhammad being too shy to tell his followers to leave his house was written by God Himself before the creation of the universe. That is the ridiculous claim here - that in the infinite and boundless wisdom of God, He had predestined for all eternity that in His final revelation to all of humankind, there would be a verse saying "please leave Muhammads house after you eat, hes too shy to tell you do so himself".

>>18533802
>never been any discovery of incorrupt scriptures
except the Quran. You can tell the Quran is authentic once you look into the science of hadith, which orientalists have praised as the most sophisticated and extensive analytic science regarding oral transmissions.
>several different yet valid versions
the differences were sent down by Allah. Do I have to put it into all caps for you to understand that? The seven ahruf were sent down by Allah. Muhammad (saw) recited the seven ahruf himself. Meanwhile, did Jesus tell the scribes who handled Mark's Gospel to add in a better ending because the original ending was sus?

>>18534167
Shi'ism, originally, was the spiritual order of the adept that only a minority were initiated in. The members were even required not to proselytize to those who don't have the required capacity. It was a minority by design. Anyway, I was offering to see if there is an esoteric interpretation, since you were complaining about the literal meaning. I won't engage with meaningless, sophistic objections.

>>18534233
>your scriptures are corrupt!
>oh, my scriptures are corrupt? it's because God Himself corrupted them! alhamdulillah!

>>18534224
How is that a ridiculous claim lol?????? Allah wrote down everything before the creation of the universe, even you responding to that post. The problem is you consider it weird that God personally informed people to watch themselves when around His messenger yet you think its perfectly fine for people to spit on and mutilate God. subhanallah. thank God for Islam!

>>18534247
Why would he write down people insulting him lel

>>18534218
>convenient
its not my fault you didn't know that before you spoke on it. its not a convenient argument you were just ignorant of that fact since you get all your information from christcuck polemicists on the internet

>>18534255
please study theology please study theology please study theology please study theology

>>18534235
We get it, you fell for Guenon's nonsense, now please stop spreading your anti-Christ pedophile's teachings as if they were more than the inconsistent ramblings of an illiterate warlord

>>18534247
This is what I mean. Anybody actually looking at that verse objectively would realize it makes way more sense that Muhammad, being too shy to dismiss his guests, said that God told them to leave.
> that God personally informed people to watch themselves when around His messenger
That's not what Muhammad said that Gabriel said that God said. He said that God wrote down, "please leave muhammad's house after eating, he is too shy to dismiss you". LOL

>even you responding to that post
Double predestination is just one of the many retardations of Islam. Why would God create some people just to doom them to Hell for all eternity, knowing that they had absolutely no choice in the matter, and that no matter what they did, God Himself was the one who would make them disbelieve? Utterly retarded nonsense.

>>18534271
Is he a masochist or a sadist or just a silly goose
>in this next bit I will create people who call me a retard, why not

>>18534292
You are just clueless. Guenon didn't even know about the Shia. Read a book before arrogantly rejecting other people's religions.

>>18534260
>more goalpost changing

you really need to leave this board if all you're going to do is shamelessly shill your religion.

>any change
>no no, not ANY!

>>18534308
>Guenon didn't even know about the Shia
I'm talking about his romanticism of Islamic spirituality.
>Read a book
Might I suggest that you read the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew? You might find some interesting parallels with the "divine revelations" of Muhammad, the plagiarist "prophet".

>>18534340
What I talked about has no bearings on orientalist work. There is no "romanticism", it is written in primary works if you bother to read a book.
>Gospel of Thomas
Sure, I have Nag Hammadi on my reading list. Gnosticism and mainstream Christianity are both corrupted traditions, but the former seems closer to Christ's original teachings.

>>18534308
Guenon didn't like the Shi'a and thought they produced all the heresies and had no 'metaphysics.'

>>18534376
Citation needed.

>>18534340
>Guenon didn't even know about the Shia
He was a sufi so he didn't need to. Anything Shia do with their esoteric Islam sufi do it 100 times better

>>18534360
Gospel of Thomas =/= Infancy Gospel of Thomas. Muhammad stole some of the stories in the latter and used it to pad out his fanfiction of Jesus in the Qur'an.
>the former seems closer to Christ's original teachings
On what do you base that statement? It's interesting that the apostles and their successors thought the exact opposite. Who would know better about what Christ taught than them?

>>18534389
If we have Infancy Gospels, do we also have an Infancy Bible as well? Now that would be a cool read, although pic related also looks cool too.

>>18534421
The apocryphal "gospels" were rejected by the apostles and their successors. I guess Muhammad didn't get the memo when he plagiarized them.

>>18534449
Gospel is valid in Islam.
Not gospel = Pauline corruption.

>>18534449
Did he also get the wrong edition? Teen Girls' Bible, perhaps? Also, considering the state of Christianity today, when are we going to have LGBTQ+ Bibles? Your priests seem pretty much on board already.

>>18534379
it's in his letters, how's your franch?

basically he doesn't think there's a big difference between sunni and shia but the shia tend towards mysticism (which he doesn't like) while the sunni are purely intellectual and metaphysical (which he likes)

>>18534479

>>18534462
>Gospel is valid in Islam.
If that Gospel is valid in Islam, you should have no problem when it says "Jesus said, "Are you so amazed? Then you should believe more of what I said to you. I really also know when you and your parents were born and I will tell you this remarkable fact: even when the world was created, I and the one who sent me to you existed."
So you believe that Jesus existed by the time the world was created? I'm glad to hear that you're on your way to becoming Christian.

>>18534476
Out of arguments, and resorting to slander? Good thing there are no gay Muslims who go against the teachings of your religion.

>>18534479
That is just not true though. In Shi'ism we have hadiths were the imams put forth explicitly intellectual arguments. We have mystical Hadiths, too. Both ascetic mysticism and rational argumentation are valid ways to understand God, according to the Shia.

>>18534496

>>18534507
Since when did Guenon ever do solid research and not skim-read and base his arguments on stuff he heard from freemasons? Basically, you're not wrong to say that Guenon didn't really know anything about the Shia. He didn't even know Ibn Arabi, and his Sufi teacher embarrasingly misattributed a text he translated by Balyani to Ibn Arabi.

Ibn Arabi explicitly refutes perennialism and the annihilationist type of mysticism (or as he calls it 'pure metaphysics') that Guenon endorsed.

>>18534497
>he fears being killed
Yes, we do not tolerate deviants. He shouldn't fear us, the Muslims, though. He should fear the wrath of his God.
>slander
Is that how you cope with seeing such pictures?

>>18534529
should we commit terrorist acts like you people do when someone draws a picture?

>>18534529
>has to post fake pictures to defend his pedophile "prophet"s ideology
done wasting my time with you, and sorry that you got brainwashed by the fanfiction momo plagiarized - hope you find the truth someday

>>18534573
after vatty deuce u don't need the church for salvation tho so why bother being catholic?

>>18534497
>So you believe that Jesus existed by the time the world was created? I'm glad to hear that you're on your way to becoming Christian.

Another misinterpretation by crosscucks

>>18534548
No, you should rather organize hot secret gay clubs in Vatican with your priests.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/18/world/europe/vatican-gay-francesco-lepore-latin.html

>PALERMO, Italy — Years after he lost his dream job in the Vatican’s Latin department, left the priesthood, came out as gay, went public with sensational accounts of rampant sex among clergy in Rome and reinvented himself as a gay rights activist and journalist with a column in Latin, Francesco Lepore returned to the Vatican to discuss a new gig.

>He pursued relationships with priests and bishops, some of whom addressed one another with female terms of endearment, he said, like “bella.” Others nicknamed one cardinal Platinette, after a famous Italian drag queen. Mr. Lepore became known, he said, as “the star of Hollywood” because he wore a Borsalino hat, cuff links and pocket watch.

NOT MY PRIESTERINO! NOT MY HECKIN VATICANERINO!!

Lmao.

>>18534578
>doesn't understand the principle of invincible ignorance
This is like talking with a toddler. Why don't you learn what you're arguing against before attempting to debate it?

>>18534588
>"Jesus said [...] when the world was created, I and the one who sent me to you existed"
>implying this doesn't obviously testify to the pre-existence of Jesus in the Gospel you claimed was "valid"
This is honestly too easy.

>>18534573
>done wasting my time with you
Are you now going to waste your time committing sodomy with your local priest?

>>18534590

>>18534590
just like muslims do from morocco to afghanistan

>>18534599
Corrupted and probably a mistranslation from Greek.

>>18534590
post the hadith about muhammad french kissing a boy

>>18534601
>has to slander and bear false witness with ad hominem attacks to defend his pedophile prophet, because he ran out of intellectual arguments
I'll pray for you.

>>18534608
>>18534590
Pedophiles and homosexuals are attracted to positions of power in any institution. That's why there's also rampant pedophilia and child rape in Islamic schools.

>>18534610
If a Muslim does that, he loses his status as a "Muslim" and is killed on the spot.

>>18534616
>The gospel with Jesus breathing life is valid!!!
>Except for the parts I don't like!!!
>It must be corrupted (no evidence presented)
>It must be a mistranslation (no evidence presented)
Great argument.

>>18534622
It's on this belief that Muslim scholars reject the canonical Gospels which they assume not to be the original teachings of Jesus and which they claim has been corrupted over time. Some scholars have suggested that the original Gospel may be the Gospel of Barnabas.

>>18534590
Hadith Number 16245, Volume Title: “The Sayings of the Syrians,” Chapter Title: “Hadith of Mu’awiya Ibn Abu Sufyan”:

“I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the
prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire)

He (the Prophet) lift up his (al Hassan’s) shirt and kissed his (little) penis..”
روى أنه صلى الله عليه و سلم قبل زبيبة الحسن أو الحسين
He (the prophet) kissed the (little) penis of al Hassan or al Husein
رأيت النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
He (the prophet) put Husein’s legs apart and kissed his (little) penis

Another Hadith. Majma al-Zawa’id, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami, 299/9 مجمع الزوائد لعلي بن أبى بكر الهيثمي

رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
رواه الطبراني و إسناده حسن
translated into English: “I saw the Messenger of Allah pbuh putting Husein’s legs apart and kissing his (little) penis.”

Related by Al-Tabarani and it’s authentication is fully validated by Islamic scholars.

>>18531794
Even Christians accept a position of this sort, since God is supposed to resurrect our bodies too according to the Bible

>>18534620
That is just a school, not an "Islamic school". I'm sure our Muslim brethren took care of the incident though.

Now I will warn you. If on the off hand chance you happen to be wrong about Islam, and Muhammad, peace be upon him and his progeny, happens to be the Prophet of God, you WILL burn in Fires for eternity. Religion is not to be taken lightly - such a stupid blunder will cost you your soul, for ever. Have you never made a mistake that you are so confident on your judgment?

>>18534628
They posit this claim with no evidence, because they realize that if Muslims actually do what the Qur'an commands them to do (check the Gospels), they would stop being Muslims:
"So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters." (S. 10:94)
Now, I wonder what the followers of Jesus were reading in the 7th century...?

>>18534632
Wretched soul! Do you not know who Mu'awiya and Abu Sufyan are? They were enemies of Islam and are frequently cursed. And now you want to share their burden in Hell. If only you knew what a mistake you just made.

>>18534637
You must be illiterate. The article is specifically talking about widespread sexual abuse and pedophilia in Islamic schools.
>If on the off hand chance you happen to be wrong about Islam [...] you WILL burn in Fires for eternity
If I do happen to be wrong, it was all Allah's fault anyway, because He predestined me to be an unbeliever who laughs at your illiterate pedophile false prophet. According to your religion, He created me specifically so that I would burn in Hell for all eternity! Alhamdulillah.

I accept the words and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope you find the truth one day, and break off the shackles of your brainwashing. Maybe you should give an honest read to the New Testament, and see how it makes you feel? After all, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

>>18534646
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Whenever Allah’s Apostle went to answer the call of nature, I along with another boy used to accompany him with a tumbler full of water. (Hisham commented, “So that he might wash his private parts with it.”) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 152; see also Numbers 153-154)

Narrated ‘Aisha:
I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 229)

>>18534646
Is that the reason they left Islam?

>>18534659
>If I do happen to be wrong, it was all Allah's fault anyway, because He predestined me to be an unbeliever
That is not what the Shia believe. You do have free will, but you are choosing to waste it.

>>18534646
>>18534632

>>18534673
I have weighed and judged the truth claims of various religions, including various forms of Buddhism, various forms of Hinduism, syncretic "perennial philosophy" religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity - and I came to the conclusion, using the best of my logical and rational faculties, that Christianity has the strongest claim to absolute truth out of all religions. I'm sorry that you think I'm "wasting" my free will, but having weighed the truth claims of your religion objectively and dispassionately, I have come to the conclusion that every sect while holds the belief that Muhammad was a prophet (including the Bah'ai), are incorrect. I do still love you, but I must make that clear - and I pray that as you continue on in your spiritual practices, that God may reveal the same to you, my brother.

>>18534673
I have weighed and judged the truth claims of various religions, including various forms of Buddhism, various forms of Hinduism, syncretic "perennial philosophy" religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity - and I came to the conclusion, using the best of my logical and rational faculties, that Christianity has the strongest claim to absolute truth out of all religions. I'm sorry that you think I'm "wasting" my free will, but having weighed the truth claims of your religion objectively and dispassionately, I have come to the conclusion that every sect which holds the belief that Muhammad was a prophet (including the Bah'ai), are incorrect. I do still love you, but I must make that clear - and I pray that as you continue on in your spiritual practices, that God may reveal the same to you, my brother.

>>18534702
>I have weighed and judged the truth claims of various religions, including various forms of Buddhism, various forms of Hinduism, syncretic "perennial philosophy" religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity
That is respectable. I also had a similar journey. In fact, reading the Hindu Gita first awakened the religious drive in me, but I ended up with Islam, and I consider this to be the best thing happened to me, thanking God everyday after prayers for guiding me toward his path and filling my heart with His light. If I may ask, why is it hard for you to accept Muhammad (may peace be upon him and his family) as a Prophet? What do you think are the conditions for being a Prophet that you think he does he not satisfy?

>>18531376
This makes more sebse than aby crap I heard all my life.

>>18534707
I appreciate your respectful response. My journey of coming to the understanding of Christianity being true are so numerous as to not fit in one post - but I will share two main reasons which led to my inability to recognize Muhammad as a prophet. The first is that through my research, I came to the conclusion that the teachings of the Tanakh with regards to the prerogatives of the Messiah, lined up perfectly with the actions and deeds recorded in the New Testament gospels. I was particularly struck by the depiction of the Messiah as being the "suffering servant" in Isaiah 52 & 53; this section of Isaiah's book seemed to almost impossibly line up with the life of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and with what His followers said regarding Him in the earliest recorded teachings. However, I found a complete inversion of this teaching in the Qur'anic narrative, which explains that Isa was not crucified, but only that a deception from Allah was cast upon everybody present, (evidently including the disciples, as they preached the crucifixion). Thus, in the Qur'anic narrative, there is no Messianic sacrifice and atonement, which seemed to me to be a huge inconsistency between the Tanakh & the Qur'an.

The second reason, which led me to accept the gospels as being true, was the arguments for the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. I found that, despite me trying my hardest, I could not come up with a logical explanation for the events surrounding Jesus' death (w/r/t His apostles proclaiming His physical resurrection and appearance, and refusing to recant on pain of torture and death). I analyzed all of the scholarly hypotheses, like the swoon hypothesis, vision hypothesis, stolen body, etc. - but I found that none of them could accurately explain the circumstances as well as the resurrection hypothesis (and trust me, to this day I'm still asking people for their explanations, and trying to find an equally suitable hypothesis). Of course, this then led to the thought that the Gospels, as the sole documents which posit this hypothesis, might be correct - and with that, a reading of the Gospels (combined with related "religious experiences"), showed that if Jesus had really promised to His disciples the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth, these documents were not just reliable firsthand (John, Matthew) or secondhand (Mark [from Peter], Luke [a combination of eyewitness reports, as he states in Luke 1:1-3]) documents, but were actually inspired by this Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would send to guide the hand of these apostles. Thus, now believing that what was contained within the gospels was true, I realized that because they diametrically opposed what is taught in the much later Qur'anic narrative (which also contains stories from various apocryphal gospels, proving it was not solely based on divine inspiration as was said by Muhammad), that the earlier testimonies from the apostles were the accurate ones.

>>18534707
>What do you think are the conditions for being a Prophet that you think he does he not satisfy?

Not him but it's obvious to me that Muhammad used the religion to justify his whims. A genuine prophet wouldn't do that, and all the copes Muslims provide don't help, and at best can only paint him as a well-meaning but mediocre man.

Good praying style though, and some of the theology and poetry are based indeed.

>>18534830
I was hoping you would make a criticism of Islam from within, since I'm admittedly not very acquainted with Christian and Jewish texts. But reading this, two things just came to my mind. Why would God want his Prophet to be sacrificed and atone for the sins of others? Assuming the Qur'anic view of Prophethood is true, then the purpose of a Prophet is to transfer the message of God, to warn them of the consequences of committing sins, and to encourage them to do good deeds. Why would he "redeem" the sins of others, then? Also, couldn't it have been that those "apocryphal" gospels were the actually true gospels, thereby showing an agreement of the historical Jesus with the Prophet of Islam? Why would you take them to be apocryphal?

>>18534874
If you are referring to his marriage with Zaynab (which came up on the thread yesterday), please read this, as there are a lot of falsehoods and misconceptions surrounding that marriage.
https://www.al-islam.org/the-message-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/chapter-36-events-fifth-year-migration
If you are referring to other "whims", then tell me so that we could discuss it.

>>18534002
>14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” 15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them.
Matthew 15

>>18534707
>What do you think are the conditions for being a Prophet that you think he does he not satisfy?
For me its the pedophilia, banditry and war mongering. I imagine God doesn't want bloodshed. Turn the other cheek is, for me, an undeniably more holy sounding doctrine than eye for an eye.

>I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.
John 16:33
>For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:4-5

>>18531468
I’m an exmuslim and not religious anymore, but even in my muslim days I used to think Jesus was a much holier and divine figure than Mohammed. I vividly remember telling my father that and he immediately yelled at me because I was being heretical. Mind you, I was 11 or something. I’m not talking about christianity, but I believe Jesus as a figure is much better than Mohammed