/lit/ - Literature

>>18421011
Why is France there?

>>18421011
low quality bait

I can already feel the anglo seethe

>>18421011
Literally one book none of you actually read. Literally one fucking seven hundred year old book.

>>18421201
Did you?

>>18421014
After the Italians, they were seen as the kings of /lit/ until after the Enlightenment era.

>>18421026
t. self-loathing anglo francophile

>>18421011
Your map of Greece looks a bit weird.

I honestly don't like much of it, maybe I'm a pleb.
I am a monolingual pleb but what exactly are the classics of literature from those regions versus literature from germany or russian literature or english (USA/UK) literature?

i literally cant think of 1 good italian book

>>18423118
uh, the bible? vatican is italian

>>18423128
the bible is written by a jew in the middle east/. seriously, besided Divine Comedy and The Prince, whats a good italian book?

>>18421011
jewish literuture existed in its prime when europeans were still throwing shit at each other( of course it has lots of cannanite and other infulences so it has to be said its not all completely original)

>>18423138
Probably something by Tarquato Tasso.

>>18421014
Why is Italy there? At least France has Dumas and Hugo. Italy has literally one (1) great work.

>>18423118
Considering the OP said, "for Two thousand years", I would guess that most of what they're considering dominant is Golden Age Latin literature like Ovid, Virgil, etc.

>>18423179
This joker

>>18423138
Most of our important novelists wrote in the 20th century: my personal favourites from this period are (I know some compatriots who would disagree) are Calvino, Eco, Pirandello, Buzzati, Pasolini, Gadda (the final boss of italian literature), Levi and Morselli (this one a lil bit obscure but imho he's one of our best writers). As for philosophy you have Vico and the entirety of renaissance philosophy/humanism which is obviously fundamental for the history of western civilization, Gramsci, Gentile, Croce for communism, liberalism and fascism respectively. There's also a dozen or so of lyrical top tier poets besides Dante and Petrarch, who are the most famous: Leopardi, Ungaretti, Montale, Zanzotto, Pascoli, Ariosto, Tasso, D'Annunzio, Saba, Sereni and others. There's also the darling of our national literature proper, Manzoni, but I'm not very fond of him. Sorry if this reads a bit rambly, but I'm writing so I can stay awake and reset my sleep schedule.

>italy
>literature

Italy is far too patrician for low brow mass media like literature.

>>18421011
I, for one, rejoice about the Franco-Italian reunion. The two most based countries to ever grace Earth with their arts.

>>18423246
Based

*record scratch*
*anthem starts playing quietly*
*ear rape*
VELIKAYA RUS
*refuses to elaborate*
*leaves*

>>18423246
Seriously is the rest of the world even trying?
I guess the low Germans are fine too. We should restore the old French empire desu. No Pr*ssian allowed of course.

>>18423569
If by "old French empire" you mean Napoleon's France, as that included parts of today's low Germany, I'd say you are being silly. That was an entirely artificial construct that did not last for more than a handful of years for very obvious reasons: the inhabitants did not really want it.
In any case, disregard Germany (in its entirety) means disregarding Goethe, and I cannot stand to see a history of western literature that disregards its most logical conclusion.

>>18423602
That's not the old empire at all, which is the 9th century one.

>>18423614
That was the Frankish empire, not the French empire.

>>18423618
>Frankish, French
The two words are the same within slight variations of pronunciation over the centuries. All people of that kingdom were described as "Franks" through most of the middle ages, and in some language there is no distinction.
How some people can still fail to understand the ethnogenesis of France (or Italy and Greece at the same time for that matter) is beyond me.

>>18423118
Because you're illiterate.

>>18423693
Because the Franks are more than the French. It's like saying the Germans are the same as the Germanics, or the English are the same as the Celts. To say they are the same would be willfully reductive and historically illiterate.

>>18423246
Let's restore it

>>18423693
There were separate law codes for franks and more heavily romanized populations along roughly a north-south axis, with a unified code only after the revolution. There's Brittany resisting the centralization and establishment of a French state for hundreds of years. Why do you think ethnogenesis is an instant, magical thing?

>>18423771
Well, let the EU do its thing. The center of Europe uniting into one state is a phenomenal idea. Just it can't work through conquest, as history has shown. It has to happen through diplomacy, through culture. Cut through the red tape at the top, reform it to be a a greater nation by its peoples. I think a unified France-Germany-Italy is a historic necessity.

>>18423847
Germany is culturally too far from France and Italy imo. That being said I agree that the first UE was kino. Let's do a union between France-Italy-Wallonia and Flanders-Germany-Netherlands.

>>18423861
You are conflating culture and language a bit too much.
Central Europe _generally_ has a rather coherent culture even if it obviously differs a lot from here to there. I don't think German and French culture differ more from one another than, say, Bavarian and Frisian culture (yet Bavaria and Frisia are both part of the same nation). The German Rhineland has a lot of France in it that Berlin does not, for obvious reason. Geography shapes culture, as does history, but that does not mean a greater culture cannot supercede those differences - not by eradicating the locality, but rather by making the people able to see both their own uniqueness, and their greater holistic culture aswell.
Maybe the thought makes more sense to me as a German, because Germany for the majority of its existence has been a patchwork of different states with somewhat different cultures, which still very much shines through today's Germany, compared to France's relatively constant existence as a centralized monolith. But then again, Italy's history is comparable to that of Germany in that regard, so what do I know.

What the EU truely lacks, though, more than anything else, is a unifying mythos. It is attempting to become a state through mere functional means, when few modern states have found their origin in such an endeavour. Counterproductively to that, we live in a time where transfiguration of history is mostly frowned down upon. So it is kinda hard to come up with a new mythos, especially since everyone is well aware that the history of Europe is a history of war more than it is a history of unity.
Dunno. It's a conundrum. I'd be all for a greater central European nation, but I do not believe it is possible to achieve. We missed the timeframe of romantic nationalism that was prevalent in the 19th century (and lead to the desasters of the early 20th century). The spirit of these sentiments was useful for forging feelings of nationality, but it could never forge a feeling of European-ness. Not back then, because the continent was full of war, and not today, because the spirit is gone. I'm rambling at this point.

>>18421011
Germany conquers all.

>>18423847
>through diplomacy, through culture
Indeed, the problem is that it's happening through finance.

>>18421011
Yeah and in 200 years America wrote better books than either did in those 2000 years.

>>18424248
The only great book the USA has ever produced is Moby-Dick. Almost everything else is only great within the USA itself.

>>18423201
You could add to that writers of novelle, though a lighter genre: the boss, Boccacio then Bandello, Straparola, Cinzio, etc and one of my favourite, il grasso legnauolo.
Don't know much about italian theater but I've read bits of Alfieri that were really good, I should dig it.

>>18424336
You realize saying shit like this is a dead giveaway you don’t read, right?

>>18424410
Just like this >>18424248 post, is so what? Am I supposed to answer sincerely to an obvious joke?

>no spain
>no greece

>>18424248
>Good ol' Jack came to the farm on his horse. He looked at his house he made with his hands. He said: "Damn! 'Tis such a tough world". And the horse neighed, and good ol' Jack patted its head. 'Cause twas a good beast, and Jack a good man.
*repeat a trillion times*

Here it is, American literature.

>>18424248
You do know that you were supposed to keep reading after hs, right?

>>18423847
>>18424027
Great posts, I haven't much to add to what you say.
Just that the EU is more or less a pos- war pro-American creation that was intended to manage peace while NATO ie the US manage war. As such it wasn't meant to assume a collective destiny. The great leap would be a break from NATO, which would render the EU actually meaningful on more than the socio economic level.

>>18424586
Yeah, I do think if any pan-European identity ever springs up, it will be as a reaction to both America in the west and China in the East. But as such Europe has to emancipate itself from the USA, which is currently not really in the EU's nor the USA's best interest, politically speaking.

>>18424027
Good post, I don't have much to say to you kek. My commentary on the difference between the cultures comes from my experience: as a Frenchman I have lived both in Germany and Italy. I agree with your analysis, but I cannot help but feel like there is a greater divide between Germany as a whole and France than between Italy as a whole and France.

>>18423693
Because it's fucking wrong. The Franks at the time of the Carolingians separated themselves by law and language from the Latin speakers in the west and south. Ethnically, southern Dutch speakers are probably closest to the original Franks. Fr*gs don't get to have a monopoly on claiming the heritage of Charlemagne just because they kept the same name.

>>18425275
>The Franks at the time of the Carolingians separated themselves by law and language from the Latin speakers in the west and south.
That's wrong, law ceased to be personal ie ethnical by the 6th - 7th century. Carolingian law was territorial and lots of it derived from roman law, especially on the conceptual level(while barbarian customs were just that).

>>18425275
>Ethnically, southern Dutch speakers are probably closest to the original Franks.
If you'd ask in Germany, you'd find a location in northern Bavaria calling themsevlves the true Franks. Shit's wacky.

>>18423118
Retard

>>18426771
>Bilderatlas Mnemosyne
Pretty cool stuff. Saw an exhibition about that recently.

>>18424336
wait till my burgerpunk diary is published

>>18421011
Those guys wrote things?

>>18426790
Cool, anon. Did you take some pictures to show us?

>>18426806
No, sorry. I only had my phone with me and I am not the kind of guy anyway to take pictures in a museum. But if you happen to come through Bonn, Germany in the next few days I think it should still be open.

>>18426818
But what was the exhibition about? Did it show Warburg's collages?

>>18421011
France didn't have that strong of a literary scene between the times of Caesar and Justinian.

>>18427033
It was the entire work, adequately annotated, from beginning to end on one long wall as one collage. Mostly originals, some facsimiles among them.

>>18427187
So cool. I've read Mnemosyne but seeing it on a bigger scale at an exhibition must be such an improved experience.

>>18427206
Yeah, it was great. Oh, and so you don't get me wrong, by "originals" I meant originals of Warburg's photographs as he arranged them, not of the actual paintings. It was still very well done, but I imagine how great it would be to actually have all the paintings in one place. Sadly I can't see all of those works to ever come together in one place for one exhibition. Still, just imagining it is nice.

>>18421011
Fritterly isn't real

>>18421011
I never knew there are this many cities in Paris.

>wine
>cheese
>surrendering
france and italy are pretty much the same country in terms of stereotypes. we dont need both and should get rid of one, france probably.

>>18428784
Nah. I keep both.

>>18426771
>still translated
Wow those must be masterpieces

>>18423138

Jesus man Petrarch (Canzionere), Boccaccio (Decameron), Tasso (Jerusalem Delivered), Ariosto (Orlando Furioso), Ludovico (Orlando Inamorato), Manzoni (The Betrothed) just to start with.

Petrarch = the model for all European lyric poetry (including Shakespeare, Pushkin, Goethe etc.) until very recently.

Bocaccio = The foundation of the prosaic narrative as a sophisticated form which would give rise to the picaresque and later the novel.

Ariosto, Tasso, Ludovico = The paradigm and template for the modern European epic (Spenser and Milton for example both openly drew from them and modelled their epics upon theirs)

Manzoni = Not so important as far as innovation is concerned, but is regarded all over Europe (besides the English speaking world for some reason) as one of the premiere novelists and writers of his century in general.

And before you ask; no, I'm not Italian. This is extremely cursory information about European literature, which everyone should know.