/lit/ - Literature

>>18163343
do enough acid and you'll definitely change your world view on spirituality.

Sorry, you either have a soul, or you don’t. Have fun!

I used to be a materialist atheist. I became "spiritual" after being deeply impacted by Jesus' exhortations in the Gospels, went on a solo trip in another country, and came back deciding to join a religious order.

>>18163453
what about them impacted you?

>>18163343
When I was a teenager I was a somewhat cringy atheist. Not the worst of the worst but definitely an atheist who would occasionally spout off about it. Very hedonistic and lacked any sort of self discipline

Years later (early 20's) I realized that this self centered thinking had gotten me nowhere in life and I was miserable, suicidal. I decided that instead of suicide I would start living to try to benefit other people, even if it was just in small ways. This was more of a logical thing for me than it was my heart wanting to do it. It was like "may as well squeeze what value there is in my life out for other people at least, since I was considering throwing it away anyways and living the way I have been hasn't benefited me"

While this change was logical at first, I started to feel a change in me in the coming months, and felt like I was almost starting to believe in God and Jesus Christ, which was a shock to me since I had been so adamantly against all that when I was younger. I resisted for a while, trying not to believe lol. Then one day when I had a really shitty day and didn't know what to do or where to turn I cried out to Jesus and asked Him to help me. And from that moment since I've believed in God and His Son Jesus Christ and I love Him so much. God is good

>>18163887
BLESSED

>>18163887
>I'm starting to become spiritual
>time to believe in Christianity
You don't think that you've missed some steps? For example, what makes Christianity the one true faith? You could've just as easily cried out to Allah and the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and produce the same effect.

>>18163954
How about I worry about my spiritual life, and you worry about yours

Yeah. Dostoevsky, the Bhagavad Gita, and ruminating on the hard problem of consciousness did it for me.

> I've been fearing that one day I'll experience something that has no discernable explanation and my whole worldview will shatter.

Experience itself has no discernable explanation. This was the big thing that broke me, in conjunction with the Gita.

The brothers karamazov moved me spiritually. I might even believe in god now. Fuck I don't know exactly what that book did to me but it changed how I view religion.

>>18163965
Let's pretend you didn't just say something incredibly pathetic and cope-pilled. What makes Christianity the one true faith, when you could've just as easily cried out to Allah and the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) and produce the same effect? What does that say about your spirituality if you cannot answer this much?

>>18163343
psychedelics changed me. DMT makes things comfy spiritually

>>18164007
Yeah you're right bro, Christcucks blown the fuck out. You got me, congrats

I took a minor in History/Philosophy of Science at university. I found my way to religion by realizing the plethora of worldviews that were continuously overturned and that religious texts still held meaning after thousands of years. (Religion and theology are modes of understanding the world; it's arrogant to assert my STEM knowledge has omnipotence over that).

>>18163343
Man I started believing God and Jesus after reading Dosto books and Tolstoy's confession and Kingdom of God is Within You. Brothers K. did really moved me from atheism to new belief. Demons made me realize the madness of atheism to man (kirilov's suicide) and such from The Idiot to Crime and Punishment. Tolstoy Anna Karenina - I see myself to Levin from his doubt,

>>18164039
It gets even better. The Communists also cried out to Dialectical Materialism and the Chairman with similar results. So as it turns out, you are about as spiritual as the most hardcore atheist.

>>18164081
Yeah definitely, makes perfect sense

>>18164039
>Yeah you're right bro, Christcucks blown the fuck out. You got me, congrats
I don't know why you are taking that anon's very reasonable question so negatively. Being an ex-atheist as you claim you should be able to clearly see why someone would question why Christianity was the spiritual path you went towards instead of the countless others.

>>18163343
LSD trip in a cabin in the woods. Basically felt an overwhelming connectivity with everything. I was able to look past my ego and realize there is an infinite amount of synergy in what we perceive. I wouldnt say I now adhere to a specific religion, but it definitely opened my mind up. Even just being able to see that regardless of my beliefs, faith is the cornerstone of human evolution and "natural law".

>>18163343
Unironically read Sam Harris

>>18164101
Not op but former agnostic turned christian. I turned to Christianity because the archetypical ideas are presented in a way that is pleasing to my religious sense. When I was lowest and suffering I didn't turn to a Hindu deity, Buddha or any other god because they are stained with another culture, language and blood that's not familiar to me. I reconcile this fact with the perrenial idea that all religions in essential points are representing the same ineffable ideas from the viewpoints of different cultures. Christianity was the one most convenient to me and it's the one that resonates with me the most.

>>18163887
This post is far more cringey than the worst atheist fedora tipper

>>18164101
For one, that's not the question he asked. Two, he started with the assumption based on nothing that calling out to Muhammad would have the same effects on my spirituality, when he knows nothing about how I came to that point and what occurred in that moment. You're both being incredibly dishonest, and his cringe "oh you CAN'T answer" reply because I choose not to, deserves no response. You can both continue to be intellectually dishonest and seethe at my posts though, that's fine. Meanwhile many other people ITT are also talking about their faith, or growing faith in Christ and that's pretty cool

>>18163995
TBK is so overrated. The entire premise of the novel is flawed and Dosto uses tons of forced metaphors and contrivances in such a hamfisted way. How on earth did that tripe actually impact you spiritually?

>>18164148
Which part. Loving God? I love God

>>18164051
Uhh, did you study the DIFFERENT religious texts? They kind of contradict each other, anon

>>18164160
...and?

>>18164147
It's sad to see someone give in to self delusion. You openly state you adopt that worldview because it appeals to your feefees and it's familiar culturally. I cannot think of a more pathetic reason to adopt a worldview.

>>18163343
i was a scientific materialist secular humanist and one day i googled 'best spiritual books of all time' and picked up 'the power of now' and read it and that turned me on to meditation and ever since I have been studying that and it's branched into psychedelics and such, I am now a Buddhist but I also believe in Magick and Occult just don't know enough yet but looking into it. I meditate every day and practice for my sake. if you like >muh evidence then Buddhism shows the way to enlightenment only through your own working & trial & error, there are other valid paths I just found this to be the best for me.
there are many religious traditions with mystical/more spiritual paths involved i.e. sufism kabbalah etc. it's basically take your pick. but then actually do the mental practices
just find something that makes you happy in life you dont NEED to turn to religion but it helps a lot. a lot of religious things could also be considered psychological/emotional so it varies

>>18164173
What shapes your worldview and spiritual beliefs?

>>18164149
>seeth and cope
So tell me then, why is the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) and Chairman Mao less of a spiritual authority than Jesus Christ? Which factors give Jesus Christ greater credibility.

>>18164180
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the others are not

>>18163343
I went from agnostic, then catholic, then agnostic again
>>18163965
>be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you
1 Peter 3:15

>>18164154
I was about to read it for the first time. You have 30 seconds to reccomend a better book, bucko.

>>18164190
Do you have a source for that statement? In the Quran, for example, Jesus was only a divinely inspired man, not the son of God. And obviously, Science denies that that sort of conceptuon is even possible.

>>18164213
bro don't you know that jesus died and came back to life? what's that? you NEED a source? EXCUSE ME? nobody saw him come back to life but that doesn't matter because it happened you cracker

>>18164197
The guy I was replying to has no genuine interest in learning about Christ, or the hope I have because of Him. Don't cast pearls before swine, shake the dust off of your feet on the porch of those who reject you. These are also instructions in the Bible. Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal and had hundreds of them killed when Yahweh showed He is the true God

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the anon replying to me isn't going to get any concrete proof me that isn't already recorded in the gospels and that he isn't already familiar with. It's a matter of faith, if he wants spiritual truth he will seek it and find it

>>18164147
>didn't turn to a Hindu deity, Buddha or any other god because they are stained with another culture
That's pretty understandable. Is their a specific branch of christianity you follow or is it moreso taking aspects that personally resonate with you and your interpretations (or rather your personal understanding of the teachings)?
>>18164149
Again, it appears to me that you can only respond negatively to a rather simple question which you can clarify the basis/assumptions the anon made as being disgenious or misunderstood whilst still providing an overall answer to the general idea of it.

>>18164173
I'm sorry you feel that way.
>>18164179
I also am curious.

>>18164232
>It's a matter of faith, if he wants spiritual truth he will seek it and find it
Which spiritual truth? The one that calls the Earth flat or the one that maintains God is 3=1?

>>18164239
And I have no desire to explain in detail how I specifically came to believe in Christ beyond the three paragraph post I already typed to do so. Thanks for your concern though

>>18163638
For the first time, I realized that I was weak, selfish, and controlled by my passions. When I read Jesus say things like "Sell what you have and give to the poor, and then follow me", "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me", and "I was hungry and you did not feed me", I understood that I was just another cog in a materialist machine, afraid of pain and numbing myself with dopaminergic vices like fornication and marijuana.

It's a strange feeling, being confronted with what you know is the objective Truth of how to live your life, spoken by the most perfect man to ever live, and realizing you are doing the exact opposite of everything you should.

"In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

i was an atheist untill i learned about gnosticism and it clicked with me a lot. just the sheer autism, mediocrity and evil of reality almost points to it. nothing has changed in my life. i honestly dont care about the divine or whatevers responsible for all this. if it all turns out to be a dream, i wouldnt be surprised

>>18164232
Hmm I think you put people off the faith when you talk like that anon. Not that you have an obligation or anything to provide foolproof rational and empirical arguments for your beliefs, but you did enter into the conversation willingly. When you say "it's a matter of faith" are you implying you are a fideist?

>>18164239
>moreso taking aspects that personally resonate with you and your interpretations (or rather your personal understanding of the teachings)?

This somewhat. I am opposed to the Catholic dogmatism personally but I understand it's usefulness in penetrating the unconscious. I favor a more transcendental personal relationship with God and I feel that's most important.

>>18164259
>And I have no desire to explain in detail how I specifically came to believe in Christ beyond the three paragraph post I already typed to do so.
Kinda defeats the purpose of a discussion if you aren't willing to discuss, but you do you I suppose. I'll leave this courtesy of Googlefu
>"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, but with gentleness and respect" Peter 3:15

Jesus Christ loves you all and died for you so that you may be saved and have eternal life

Yes I was a hardcore athiest then used Buddhism to cope before converting to Orthodoxy (which my father did as a child)

>>18163343
Psychedelics first sparked my interest in the spiritual world, lots of solo travel around the world cultivated it further. I've had some rather deep conversations with religious people on my journeys as well, which made me reflect on my own spiritual nature more and more as well. I grew up in a very non-religious family where money seems to have taken the place of God. I love my family but I've always been made to believe that material wealth is the greatest thing achievable. It gave me outer comfort, but no inner comfort at all whatsoever. When your peers are always working and school only teaches you that you need to learn how to make money, it's hard to develop a genuine inner sense of worth. I just couldn't manage to properly love myself until I began to turn inward and travel the world on my own as a young adult. If I had remained an atheist, I don't think I ever would've been able to escape the constant misery and existential dread.

>>18164313
does that mean all the people that died before jesus was alive went to hell because they did nothing about their sins?

I wouldn't say that I am spiritual, yet, but after reading ancient Greeks I now found it fascinating how they, by praying Gods, find strength to pursue their means. By trusting your faith in something greater. It doesn't matter that it don't exist. It will only be less reasoning for you to do, and more strength to be used towards pursuing your own meaning.

>>18164336
would you say that all religious people are, at the end of the day, merely coping with what they can't understand?
Not that I think that coping is inherently bad. I've been doing some introspection lately about how I need to believe in the positive side of things, no matter how unlikely, because if I don't then I just shut down. I wallow in misery. So maybe religion is just that on a much bigger scale.

Yes, but I didn’t find it in monotheism, but instead in polytheism. I was surprised about the immense amount of deep wisdom that can be found in the religious teachings of Mesopotamia, Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Greece and Rome, to the point where monotheism feels like a complete de-evolution to me

>>18164330
No, not if they were justified by their faith in God the Father. Because, de facto, their faith in the true God was sufficient because they would trust God and His plan for salvation through Christ. The prophecies of the Old Testament that point to Jesus show their faith in Christ before Christ was on earth. However, after Christ's earthly ministry if you reject Christ, you reject God

>>18164362
and the people that were around before the old testament? before the bronze age?
do they get a pass?

>>18164362
And the Muslims say the exact same things about the teachings of Muhammed, so who am I supposed to believe?

>>18164376
>No sweaty, every other religion in the world is a fraud and a grift. Only Christianity is the one true faith.

>>18164376
>>18164385
Believe whoever you want. Free will is a beautiful thing

>>18163343
No, absolutely not. I tried to understand religion, so I read the bible. Bought dozens of commentaries, books on theology, books on biblical archaeology, church history, and so on. Reading the bible has only solidified my atheism. Truly, I am horrified that people worship the mad beast that is yahweh in the bible. He is horrific, a genocidal maniac with no morals, a narcissist, and a psychopath. Read the book yourself and you'll see.

>>18164376
>dude the world is such a contradictory place, may as well just believe in nothing
Retard.

>>18164391
Again, the same thing applies to you. You can worship the cross instead of Allah, but he’ll know, and is keeping score

Only aggressively proselytizing religions and denominations like S*nnis or Cucktolicks care about religious universalism, while others work on mutual acceptances and friendship.

kys s*nni zionist freak and catholick pedo

>>18164385
>>18164398
>No sweaty, every other religion in the world is a fraud and a grift. Only Islam is the one true faith.

>>18164397
That’s not what I implied at all. Christianity and Islam give us two of roughly the same teachings (the word of God), and both insist that theirs is the only correct one, and even give us the same punishment of eternal hellfire for anything that deviates from their beliefs. So, again, which one is the correct one?

>>18164346
Not all, definitely. Some truly believe in God, based on the culture they have grown up with. They probably just take it as a unquestionable fact, and have been told to never question their beliefs.
About the looking things from positive point of view, I believe coping with religion might help as Dostoevsky suggests. The other route is filled with misery, since at the darkest hour there is nothing for you to grab on. But at the end of the day you might have done something greater or more beautiful than a religious man can even imagine. But in the latter, you have to have something to pursue, the meaning of you.

>>18164391
No such thing as Free Will

The universe exists. Matter does not create itself, it's against the laws of thermodynamics. The existence of anything is an unexplained miracle beyond our understanding. Throughout human history, the mysterious source responsible for the genesis of everything is often referred to as a "god" in one form or another. It is logical that there is a god of some sort

>>18164419
>It is logical that there is a god of some sort
No.

It "God" is not a Jin to fullfill my hedonistic and material desires, and on top of that resurrect people I WANT and summon me a gf, then that is not God, but universe or something else.

Checkmate.

>>18164408
It is what you implied, you're just not wise enough to see it. Atheism also provides us with an equally conflicting and mutually exclusive account of existence, as does Hinduism, post-structuralism, Platonism, and, for that matter, every hypothesis of a similar resolution. On a formal level, each is as arbitrary as the next; each predicated on some (by definition ungrounded) faith in some object that they deem to be the truth. Does this mean however that we're obliged not to pick one; to cease hypothesizing altogether, paralyzed in the superposition between decisions? Fundamentally, this is what nihilism is: the fear of decision, out of fear of the violence it may cause to that which it excludes.

>>18164419
Yes there IS God, but a spiritual one? Probably not. But that's why it's so controversial and there are so many different religions. You cannot prove it, yet can only believe. But as I stated >>18164336 it probably is not a bad thing.

>>18164438
>Does this mean however that we're obliged not to pick one; to cease hypothesizing altogether, paralyzed in the superposition between decisions? Fundamentally, this is what nihilism is: the fear of decision, out of fear of the violence it may cause to that which it excludes.
Start with the sceptics.

"On this question, the pronouncements of highly learned men are so varied and so much at odds with each other that inevitably they strongly suggest that the explanation is human ignorance, and that the Academics have been wise to withhold assent on matters of such uncertainty; for what can be more degrading than rash judgement, and what can be so rash and unworthy of the serious and sustained attention of a philosopher, as either to hold a false opinion or to defend without hesitation propositions inadequately examined and grasped?"
—Cicero, The Nature of the Gods

>>18164213
Because there are documented eyewitness accounts and those of outsiders like Tacitus who attest to the miracles and resurrection of Christ. Now, will you shut up, or continue to be an obtuse dickhead going on about "muh sources"?

>>18164449
One still chooses to be a skeptic. It is a position, predicated on faith and arbitrary, just like any other.

>>18164475
Did Tacitus "attest" to the miracles or just describe that people attributed miracles to Christ? Besides anon in those Roman histories they are constantly attributing miracles and omens to people like fucking Caligula. it doesn't count for much

>>18164487
That's true, anon. Not that anon you're replying too btw. Personally I think the anon is just replying to the muslim perspective and not the atheist perspective by bringing up outside sources.

>>18164395
>Truly, I am horrified that people worship the mad beast that is yahweh in the bible. He is horrific, a genocidal maniac with no morals, a narcissist, and a psychopath. Read the book yourself and you'll see.
Ask me how I know you're bullshitting and haven't even read the New Testament?

>>18163343

No, never, and I am very glad about it. t. 37

>>18164475
>Bro, they saw it with their own eyes!
I suppose we must also accept the existence of UFOs, Bigfoot, and gold-digging ants.

>>18164376
Both are fine. Muslims say righteous Christians also go to heaven, and there is an argument in Islam that perennialism is true because Allah has sent prophets to all the peoples on the Earth.
>>18164425
I know this is bait, but the lesser cannot comprehend the greater. The pot cannot ask the potter why it was made. God is on an entirely different ontological level than you.

So what makes Muhammad the ultimate authority on spiritual matters

>>18164514
>Muslims say righteous Christians also go to heaven
They absolutely don’t. This is mentioned specifically in the Quran. Unless you believe that Jesus was a prophet. Was he?

>>18164516
He wrote a book a few centuries after the events of Christ happened.

>>18163343
Psychedelics. Realised I was just living as a bundle of psychological defences and rationalisations that were constructed to block out deep intuitive capacity; this capacity shines a light on our life that brings emotional baggage to the surface and reveals all the ways we degrade ourselves with ugly behaviour and thoughts.

This sense of beauty and ugliness to human activities is the basic spiritual framework I hold. With God being the highest expression of beauty, to behave in an ugly fashion is to move away from God towards darkness and isolation.

Beauty is not exactly the right word, since violence and death could be in alignment with divine order but wouldn't be considered beautiful at all in the normal sense of the word. I just use the word beauty as the feeling of being "in alignment" is similar to that which is evoked witnessing a sight of profound beauty. And the feeling of being out of alignment is a kind of repulsion like seeing a person shovelling junk food into their face with absolute gluttony

>>18164154
You'll understand when you grow up a little.

What am I supposed to do if I don't have the energy to believe? I barely have the energy to do day to day tasks or read a few pages of a book

>>18164904
>>18164329
what psychedelics, anons?

>>18163343
I did lots of psychedelics, I can’t say any specific trip gave me spiritual insight or anything like that, but the cumulative effect was a sense of connection to the world. I also listened to beautiful music and looked at beautiful art and the atheistic worldview just stopped making sense. I read St. Augustine, and he felt so human, and his struggles with conversion felt so similar to my own that I eventually just accepted that I believe in God. I can’t say I’m fully committed to Christianity over any other form of spirituality, it just feels the most culturally relevant to me so I’ve explored Christian literature the most, but I don’t go to church.

I used to be the usual edgy atheist in my teen, now I lean toward deism after reading some aristotle

>>18163954
cuz Mohamed (piss be upon him) just repeated stuff from the Bible and added whatever fitted his intentions.
he was at worst a crazy man and at best a man tricked by demons
May he have repented in his deathbed anyway

>>18164329
>>18164904
>>18165848
I can understand being liberated from your previous prejudices, but don't you ever apply critical thought to your "new reality"? Or think about the epistemological problems involved in substituting yet one more set of intuitions for another? As far as I know organised religions tend to discourage relying on sensual experiences like visions and so on (at least without the guidance of a spiritual counsellor) because they can be deceptive.

>>18165811

First one was Hawaiian baby Woodrose. Bunch of terrible tasting seeds that give nausea for a while but then very hardcore journey. Further on I tried mushrooms and acid maybe 15 times in total. More than necessary but that's my personality. Intention and setting are more important than the substance in my experience.

I don't seek it out anymore, I got the message, continual use would just be indulgence which I'm no stranger to. I found some mushrooms when I went camping a year ago and they are still in the freezer.

I think fasting could be comparable in terms of spiritual impact if executed well. I've had some interesting experience with breath practice but needs to be done every day.

Kundalini Yoga exercises are very good for transformative potential but I don't like the new age religious aspects associated with it.

>>18163343
psychedelics first showed me my spirit
going to church and praying made me have faith and be beside myself

>>18165890
I wouldn’t call my psychedelic experiences, even at their most intense, “visions.” Although the visual aspects of psychedelics can be extreme, they come with a shift in cognition that can only be experienced, I have never seen it accurately described. Of course I apply critical thought to my epistemology, but ultimately all belief is intuition, and to believe that either theism or atheism can be logically, absolutely, inferred seems, to me, arrogant.

>>18163343
>How did it happen?
If it happens, it happens by the grace of God alone.
"Allah guides whom He wills and lets astray whom He wills" Al-Quran 14:4

>>18164213
>In the Quran, for example, Jesus was only a divinely inspired man, not the son of God
In the Quran Jesus is the Word of Allah who is cast into Mary, and then he returns to Allah. Tell me how can Allah be separated from his Word?

>>18164350
>deep wisdom that can be found in the religious teachings
Such as

>>18165945
>Tell me how can Allah be separated from his Word?
Why can God be seperate from his creation but not from his word?

>>18165940
>to believe that either theism or atheism can be logically, absolutely, inferred seems, to me, arrogant.
How are we supposed to choose between belief systems then? It seems that scepticism is the best position.

>>18165969
His word must necessarily come from him

>>18164350
The Celts are interesting too.

>>18165980
I think I basically agree, and I still struggle with my own belief, as did many of the Christian doctors, and I’m sure many of the saints of other faiths. But what I cannot argue against is the sense of relief and calm I feel when I stop wrestling with the angels and jump wholeheartedly into belief.

>>18165918
My second trip with the Woodrose seeds, (first was a trial run), I took a lot. The nausea was very bad such that I regretted it, but then things got better eventually. Felt very stoned and euphoric.

After a while I started spontaneously going into yoga like positions, never having done yoga. It felt like I was releasing physical and emotional blocks. I got sick again and had the distinct awareness that part of my psyche was resisting the release of blockages because there was a level of identification with those blockages. It's continued existence was contingent on them remaining.

It was a kind of back and forth process and eventually part of me died and I felt myself totally dissolved into an oceanic feeling where the sense of me as a person no longer existed but I still could recognise my individual awareness.

It was very warm, tranquil and connected. It gave me a sense that I don't need to fear anymore.

That was quite a few years ago. Wouldn't necessarily recommend it because it was a lot to integrate. Arguably it's still going. It was a formative moment in my life but maybe too much too soon for someone else.

>>18165996
So...it is created?

>>18166045
The substance of God includes existence. The substance of nothing else includes existence.

>>18165996
all things come from him. are they not seperate?

>>18165811
I have done salvia, shrooms and LSD. Don’t do salvia. Shrooms and LSD are best when you go into the trip in a great, excited mood, nervous but not apprehensive. Do not do them if you expect you’ll be worried. Just do them for fun, the trip will take you all sorts of places, the worst feeling is when you’re expecting something specific from a trip and you don’t get it.

>>18163343
Do you find that existence itself has a discernible explanation? I certainly don’t.

>>18165890
Well I think deep down most of us know what's right and wrong in personal terms and regarding our own actions.

Yet we don't seem to live in accord with that knowing, no matter how sophisticated our conceptualisations are. In fact I've observed that we often dull that sense of knowing through endless distractions and indulgences.

If we can't face basic truths within, what good is all the highfalutin analysis? How much can we trust our own process? It's all to easy to deceive ourselves. And, dangerously, intelligent people seem to be the most cunning self-deceivers.

So my conceptualisations could all be wrong, but they are only descriptive. What matters most to me is constantly rooting out self deception. The fundamental belief here is inherent ability in all (most) of us to orient towards more integrated, coherent and truthful states of being.

>>18163343
It all emanates from my strange wonderful mind. I still like the word “spirit”, but it’s more mine than any hokey religious traditions. The old questions about who we are, am I not my mind the same way I am not my hand or liver? I am a jumble of connections in a body, differing from day to day as it takes me through time. Experiential baggage persist in memory as a defense mechanism, but I am always just Now

How would you actually neutrally assess all the major religions/belief systems to come to the conclusion that one is right? Seems impossible desu. The best way forward would be to choose one that resonates with you and stick to it until it is proven to be incoherent. Or this is where faith comes in?

>>18166850
What do you think of the argument that the most common religion is more likely to be the real one, because a god wouldn't allow for another religion to take over?

>>18166504
>women have minds

>>18163954
because of his cultural upbringing

plenty of people have the same thing happen to them who grew up in a muslim culture and they suddenly 'realize' allah is the true god and muhammad is his messenger

>>18166998
But the most common religion keeps changing all the time

>>18166998
I guess that kinda makes sense, although many religions believe that in the end times there will be a loss of faith in their respective religions.

>>18167049
It’s been Christianity for the past 1000 years at least.

>>18167059
Humans have been around almost 250,000!!!!! and literate civilisation for about 4,000

>>18167072
I mean you could subscribe to a form of perennialism like Islam, which asserts that Adam (the first man) was a prophet, so retroactively every person before Islam who believed in one God was Muslim. Other than that just become a Traditionalist and pick any religion and get initiated into some sort of spiritual esoteric order, ‘cause it’s all one primordial truth anyway right?

>>18167009
And males don’t

>>18167136
List of things invented by men
>infinite scroll
>everything since God is a man
List of things invented by women
>tiny bullet list fits on a single Wikipedia page

>>18163343
I just read philosophy books till everything clicked. I figured out the meaning of life, saw god, etc

>>18164179
>>18164240
My worldview is shaped by a desire to believe what is verifiably true and avoid believing false things. A major factor regarding this is the human tendency for self deception. There are a billion Hindus, a billion Christians, and a billion Muslims. These systems of belief are mutually exclusive. If one is true, the others are false. This categorically means that most religious people are wrong, and thus that the pursuit of religion is demonstrably a path to believing false things. You can take this a further step that most sects within those major religions also disagree and are mutually exclusive, meaning at bare minimum that overwhelming vast majority of religious people are wrong. You may feel comfortable mocking things like skepticism and reason because you feel threatened by it or because you've seen representatives of these things who were cringey, but you cannot deny what I've stated here.

>>18164362
>Believe a story thousands of years old that is kept alive by entirely self-interested parties who derive power by people's belief in it or be punished forever by a God who is only ever spoken for by said people.
Does anyone who thinks about this for more than a minute actually be convinced by it?

>>18164203
If you haven't read War and Peace, you should. Tolstoy is an absolute master of exploring ideas through characters who are authentic and interesting. If you're interested in a book more specifically centered on spiritual things, Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse is great as well. Or The Plague by Albert Camus or a thousands other novels vastly superior to TBK

>>18164227
Don't forget to tithe bro. If you want to be real safe make sure to buy some indulgences, wouldn't want to make God mad by not giving all your money to the church.

>>18163343
Yes, until about 23, I began to read Spinoza... his ethics was a good start to allowing some form of God to exist for me. Then I started to practice the virtues laid down in Plato.. then I read psychology etc....

>>18167825
What is the meaning of life?

>>18167212
>List of things from men
-This contemporary world’s arrangement and miseries.
>List of things from women
-Everyone

Interesting how anons have ruptured their esophagus defending this Muslim in here, while seething at Christianity

>>18168087
In my posts I have made it very clear I think Muslims and Christians are equally wrong

>>18168087
All Abrahamics are poisonous.

>>18168098
What is uniquely poisonous about them as belief systems?

>>18168049
>contemporary world’s arrangement and miseries
OK, I'll somewhat grant (You) that one, but a lot of that comes from men having to cope with women being such psychotics. That second one is shit though because you're useless without the coom. Literally if it wasn't for vaginas you would have been genocided no later than the book of Genesis.

>>18163343
Grew up surrounded by a lot of Christians, and they always put me off with their belief so naturally I became a "debate me, bro" atheist quite soon. I received a copy of the new testament when I was finishing high school, and I read it and liked it and stopped being a fedora tipper. I was no believer but I no longer look down sacred texts, so I read other sacred texts as well over the next few years, the quran, the old testament, some zen Buddhist scriptures, etc. That didn't make me a believer, though, I still regarded humans as biological computers, we were only particles bouncing around and so on.
I had a revelation, god appeared to me in my sleep. It was not a dream, it felt like god was injecting his message in my mind. I didn't see anything, nor did I hear anything, I was receiving the word of god directly, not through some sense. I remember panicking, trying to make sense of what I was experiencing, trying to wake up, trying to tell if I am already awake. But it was neither dreaming nor awake, it was a revelation.
I've been praying the lord's prayer daily ever since, and following god as well as I can. I don't go to church, the religious institutions are very detached from god, they are corrupted to the bone.

>inb4 schizo
Well maybe, I don't know. I went to a psychiatrist to check my mental health, they said I didn't suffer from a disorder, although I do have "overinclusive thinking". But that isn't a disorder in itself, it's a component of some disorders.

It wasn't anything rational, it was a religious experience. When I was an atheist I used to think those people who had a religious experience were schizos or took psychedelics or something similar. So I understand that some of you will call me a loon, but so be it.

>>18168642
BLESSED SHARE
Very much appreciated.

>>18164051
>Religion and theology are modes of understanding the world;

Perceiving the world? Sure. But not understanding the world, anon.

>>18164848
The Quran was not written by Muhammad

It started last February when I randomly found a medal of St. Jude on the floor of my house. It was extremely strange. The next day COVID hit the news that is was spreading internationally so it spooked me out regarding Jude's symbolism. From there on I felt I have been led down a path, towards psychedelics which I did for the first time in my life that May.
Ever since then I've known there is something greater and I have been following a path ever since through countless synchronicites and certain paranormal occurrences, and still am. I was even led across the world to a virgin trad Christian girl who I will marry next year. I feel more distant than before though, not sure if that's because of the state of the world or it has been so long since I did psychedelics. But I will still continue, I just need to live a purely virtuous life to maximise this effect.

>>18168775
>muh dictation

yes. it started last summer when i had a lot of free time with nothing to do but walk around by myself in the woods. like another anon upthread i was ruminating on the hard problem of consciousness & increasingly became convinced of idealism and realized the paucity of the materialism and scientism to which i’d previously subscribed. shortly thereafter i read some about st catherine of siena & st teresa of avila and started feeling this intense yearning in my heart to receive the eucharist and experience the real presence of Christ. started going to mass recently & will probably join RCIA soon. i was baptized catholic but wasn’t raised in the church. i’m really attracted to the concepts of free will, compassion, truth, goodness, beauty, the rational human spirit, & the intelligibility and purpose of the universe.

>>18164160
I actually took a religion credit (survey course) but dropped it (the class wasn't as useful as the textbooks; see next sentence). In university, there were mostly people reinforcing their identities one way or another (be it their racial identity or religious one). Anyway, I settled down and married a Shinto/Buddhist and my best friend is a Muslim so I've been exposed to different religious perspectives just by osmosis (aside from reading basic stuff like Huston Smith and the textbook I had).

Aside, most of the girls I dated in university were Atheist or or some type of Christian. I can't buy into the supernatural elements of religion but I'm also not in the state where I'd mock people for accepting them.

>>18168709
Only midwits choose to argue semantics over content. Take what I said however you want.

>>18168997
You’re missing the point. If you started having a pain in your chest you wouldn’t seek advice from God or the clergy to explain this new reality. You would go to a cardiologist. Yes, the latter does take precedence. For a student of philosophy you seem severely confused.

Also your point about “religious texts still hold meaning”. That meaning has vastly changed overtime. I’m guessing you don’t think the workers at a library deserve to be stoned to death for working on a Sunday.

>>18168775
Huh?

Learning about the fact that consciousness is not just the product of the brain along with meditation will set you straight. Reading texts should only be supplementary. Practice is everything

>>18169175
No, your point was superficial because you swapped the semantical context of "meaning" with "perceiving" (i.e. you missed the point). By your original comment it was easy to predict your line of reasoning as nitpicking the difference between the two, toward the effect that you'd posit one set of content as being more meaningful because you perceive it to be more actionable (e.g. chest pain).

My point was that different systems of belief, be they actionable or otherwise, are continuously overturned and replaced. The conceptualizations change but that doesn't mean what came before was entirely different or without meaning. You couldn't talk to a Newtonian about spacetime but you still use Newton to build a bridge; even if you argue that his description of the universe is wanting compared to GRE. Basically, two-hundred years from now the same line of argument would posit that scientists in 2021 weren't actually scientists because the concepts that guide their work aren't commensurate with the (future) modern conceptualization. Religion is a different system that also isn't (fully) independent of a given socio-cultural context (why should it be)? It's a living system just as scientific endeavors are in a historical context. Alongside that, you have the fact that Religious scholarship has endured longer than written language; I'd say that's reason enough to give it a level of respect that sublimates intellectual fads and ideologies that happen to be popular at a given point in time.

Basically, I didn't want to seed an argument that perception and meaning are distinct because it's feed for sneeds. The fact that it's its own branch of philosophy means that things can be well argued in either direction. It's pseud heaven. I wanted to make a simple point for OP to follow. If you want to flex materialism/atheism, feel free to do so.

>>18163343
nerd

>>18168326
Absolutist death cults aren’t nice

HAHAHAHA Nice spooks nerds

When people tell me that they are spirituality I just assume that the person had a untreated psychosis and that's the way they cope with it

>>18169175
>>18169679
Besides, everything comes down to the fact that over 7% of all humans who have ever lived are currently alive right now. We're a pretty young species so who knows how primative/scientifically minded we are.

>>18169700
Complicated way to admit you are a bugman

>Imagine spending many years of your life cultivating your mind by removing every irrational, illogical, and unflsifiable belief along with everything "unscientific", that your thinking becomes cold, sterile, mechanistic, and uninspired that you need to take psychedilics to break that mindset just to consider the possibility of God's existence.
Do atheists really?

>>18169727
Go watch some spiritual people talk about their "awakening" which is awfully similar to a mental break down
Or Christian acting like skitzoes
Or the fact that people with skitzo personality type is the shaman of all primitive society

You can't tell me that spiritual is not proven and heavily linked to mental disorder

>>18169738
Yes. There are many paths.

>>18169738
>that your thinking becomes cold, sterile, mechanistic, and uninspired
> Do atheists really?
No. This is just a fantasy in your head to amuse you.
Take a psychotropic instead. More fun.

>>18169727
>>18169768 (((me)))
I have met die hard Christians
I have lived in a hippie commune
And I have friends that started talking about telepathy that shortly after went to the psyke ward for 4 month

I know
>please stay safe and keep an eye on your mental health

>>18169679
>I'd say that's reason enough to give it a level of respect that sublimates intellectual fads and ideologies that happen to be popular at a given point in time.

Religious texts are central to the canon and there are passages in the NT that can bring me to tears....but there's no reason to thwart yourself with religious crap and hand yourself over to mental servitude. It sounds like you want to distance yourself from atheists in a knee-jerk way (that seems to be the fad these days) but you also seem to afraid to declaim any faith which is what this thread is supposed to be about...

>>18163343
I went from atheist to spiritual. Rational arguments brought me half-way there, from atheism to agnosticism, but the final leap to spirituality as not produced by any particular argument, nor by the combined force of many arguments. It was more like those rare eureka moments where your brain makes connections between dozens of seemingly unrelated strands of information. I saw the subterranean system of roots unifying the trees of the surface world.

Time is an illusion. The past, present, and future all exist contemporaneously as a single moment. Death, the apparent obliteration of the present by the future, is also a mirage. So is the apparent separation of the conscious mind from all else that exists: all minds are the dreaming of a singular world. This is the sacred ohm.

>>18169832
>rare eureka moments
Could you expand on this
I'm kinda Interested

>>18169768
Tell a Mormon businessman that. He'll probably just smile, tell you it's your perogative, and invite you to come share a dinner at his mansion with his loving family.

>>18169695
Yeah that does sound bad, what isn't an absolutist death cult these days though, amirite?

>>18169870
His believe is built on story's drawn out of a hat
biblical story even have a skitzo angle you see moses found a burning bush that talked to him

If anybody told you that as if it happened to them you would think that there something with them mentally

Some people just live in a culture built on mental illness that doesn't make him ill
But a person seeking it out in most cases are

Children raised nonreligious turns out nonreligious

Das rite

>>18169930
>His believe is built on story's drawn out of a hat
biblical story even have a skitzo angle you see moses found a burning bush that talked to him
>If anybody told you that as if it happened to them you would think that there something with them mentally
Perhaps, but you also have to consider miracles many people have witnessed, like Moses turning his staff into a snake, the plagues of Egypt, and the parting of the Red Sea.

>>18163343
Materialists tend to think that materialism is the norm. It isn't, it never was. It's a recent reaction to religion. So why do you base your worldview on a reaction to something you don't even try to understand? It's a question worth asking.

t. Former materialist.

>>18170011
But did they?
The only prove is written hundreds of years after and conflict with history
>just listen and believe

You know that its all build on mental disorders and its hurts only because you know that is at least 1% truth in that statement and you would never be able to deny

I would recommend soren Kierkegaard he talks about some stuff that you are thinking atm not related to anything above

>>18169832
>It was more like those rare eureka moments where your brain makes connections between dozens of seemingly unrelated strands of information. I saw the subterranean system of roots unifying the trees of the surface world.
I too, enjoy psychotropic drugs.

>>18169822
I don't have to distance myself from atheism any more than I have to distance myself from an ex; it's probably a healthy choice to make though. Besides, my propensity to disparage people who concentrate on low-hanging fruit and use shallow historical arguments to favor their ideological bent automatically differentiates my worldview from that of New Atheism.

As far as "mental servitude" goes, I'll tell you to check your own ideological inclinations before casting that particular stone. If you equate following a religious doctrine as a black/white example of that sort of thing, you're probably not being honest with your own beliefs (i.e. why it's important that you proselytize materialism/atheism on the internet to complete and total strangers). Odds are you aren't having ideas but letting them have you instead.

>>18170053
Its been then norm since the 19th century at least

>>18169768
What exactly defines a “mental disorder” in the first place? How can one be assured that a schizophrenic’s brain states are less reliable than a “normal” persons brain states? In fact how can one be sure that their brain is developed enough to accurately know of objective truth and reality at all? Your critique means nothing.

>>18170093
Here's a paper written on the subject
>https://www.openculture.com/2014/12/robert-sapolsky-explains-the-biological-basis-of-religiosity.html

>>18170093
based foucault poster

>>18169930
I chose Mormonism exactly because it's an absurd doctrine founded by a charlatan. I was steelmaning your argument.

The point is, someone who follows that doctrine is overrepresented when it comes to business acumen and a rewarding family life (i.e. hardly the picture of wonton mental illness that you attribute to anyone who follows religious doctrine). You need to brush up on your Dawkins if you want to make a stronger "mind virus"/"ideological meme" argument. I suggest you put down the New Atheism though; it's intellectual junkfood and you aren't very good at forming your own ideas (i.e. you'll just become even more annoying to people who actually think for themselves).

>>18170093
Educate yourself
mental disorder are well understood
People with schizophrenia has a measurable higher amount of dopamine in the brain but 13 other neurotransmitters have also been link to it

Then you can put them in a brain scanner and you would see abnormally brain activities that's not presented in healthy people

Or are you asking me to explain the symptom?
Autism have a lot of symptoms in common with it too

>>18170182
Okay, so wheres the brain scans of these christians and people that have experienced an 'awakening'?
Trannies are quite clearly mentally ill, more so than a schizophrenic, but the medical and scientific community says they are mentally healthy... So shove that up your pipe and smoke it.

>>18169768
You're just describing a confirmation bias.

Take a look at peak states described by Maslow and you'll see that "spiritual" experiences are common across the population and in many types of activities.

Of course you could argue semantics, in which case I'd say you probably don't care about increasing your depth of understanding and instead are just interested in convincing yourself of your own assumptions.

>>18170164
Are what you are looking not family value and stoicism you can have that without a believe in the supernatural

>steelmaning
Yes I have noticed that you never address anything that would matter deflecting and changing the subject to something
But I didn't expect anything less from a smooth brain larper as you I see right through your jew tricks

>>18170207
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2748718 here's a paper on that to

>>18170250
https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005268
Heres a paper showing why neuroscience is a joke.

>>18163343

I developed spiritual intuitions once sciences and philosophies didn't provide satisfying answers to my questions. I see a few other anons here talk about psychedelics. They may help your spark flash, but don't recommend jumping into drugs hoping for a glimpse at enlightenment.

>>18170228
I directly addressed the idea that mental derangement and following a religious doctrine are mutually exclusive (i.e. you're a retard if you equate the fruits of either as being broadly the same). You, however, went on some rant about Jews instead of addressing that point or even refining my own.

Conclusion: you're probably mentally ill.

>>18169738
We live in a technological society where rational manipulation of objects to improve economic efficiency is the foundational framing. We are indoctrinated into this model as children. It can take a lot to break that spell and open up new horizons, including psychedelics. In hindsight I would recommend fasting, meditation and bioenergetic exercises instead as it's much less likely to lead to a psychotic break due to the more gradual nature.

>>18170221
Here's the paper writing about it >>18170129

>Take a look at peak states described by Maslow and you'll see that "spiritual" experiences are common across the population and in many types of activities.


And you would get the same thing from mediation
Do you want me to link that too

And also this applies here as well
>You know that its all build on mental disorders and its hurts only because you know that is at least 1% truth in that statement and you would never be able to deny

>>18170262
You could also just read my source I posted before but that would hurt you feelings >>18170129

I could explain it to you but I'm lazy
It proves my point all based in science and you would not be able to refute any of it

It gives the biological basis for mental illness and how it could propagate through evolution with no visible positive treats other the its connection to religion

>>18164148
Your post is much more pathetic. Please end yourself

>>18169784
>>18170266
I'm not denigrating them for for using drugs to find God. I just think it's a pity that today people have to resort to using psychedelics to find something that points toward the Transcendent.

>>18163377
zomg teh rei!!!11

>>18164007
Nothing. There is no "one true faith". Faith inheres in the individuals belief. Hence the mass retardation of organised religion and the superiority of ancient forms of worship. Theres nothing wrong with voluntary association but coercive beliefs like "one true faith" dogmas are divisive cancers ravaging humanity.
Yes i understand that ancient spirituality cant be superior if they've been decimated by current dogmatic ones, thing is, things get worse not better.

>>18170334
People have been doing this since time immemorial. Look into the Eleusinian Mysteries. Greeks very likely tripped on a form of proto acid whilst watching some sort of play.
Its all a rich tapestry.

>>18170405
That's true, but those who weren't inducted in any mystery cults still had an orientation toward the Transcendent. I've took acid a few times, but the epiphanies I had while sober were far more profound than the ones I had while tripping. Drugs aren't strictly necessary to know the truth, but I guess it depends on an individual basis.

>>18168988
You know for a fact most if not all are basing their identity on false beliefs. They all absolutely deserve mockery, whether you want to administer it or not may understandably vary.

>>18170309
I refuted the idea that religion is a mental illness by contrasting the outcome of the two. You haven't presented any argument to justify your blanket statement or any reason that the negative social outcomes that are at the heart of defining something as a "mental illness" are applicable. Quite the contrary, I posted an example of someone who has bought into an absurd religious doctrine living a healthy and fulfilling life.

You're an idiot. I can trace the propensity to like chocolate cake to a biological basis and go further and trace it to the propensity to become obese. That doesn't mean people who like cake are mentally ill.

You should probably get yourself checked though (I'm sure you can find a non-Jewish doctor if you're worried about paranoia being a barrier to your health).

You're a retard.

>>18170511
>You know for a fact most if not all are basing their identity on false beliefs.
To each their own. Mutual respect is usually a better path to positive social outcomes.
>They all absolutely deserve mockery
So do a lot of atheist midwits. But, again, to each their own. Politeness is usually a better path to positive social outcomes.

>>18170487
Humanity points towards the Transcendent by its very nature. Thats why we're different from apes.

>>18163343
http://forallmankind.neocities.org/

>>18170575
I gave you a sinecenific paper on the biology evolutionary and behaviorally reason for mental illness where the conclusion is religion

>>18170262
And I did but you still refuse to answer how family value and stoicism is not the thing that you are looking and then you went quit because you had to think and that's totally fine
You wouldn't be mad at the idea of the link between mental illness and religion if you knew it was all false but you deflect trying to change subject and use rhetorical sissy tactic and that just tells me that I have hit a sore spot

I first stared to call you names when I knew you couldn't argue with out very basic bad fate rhetoric even if its instinctual

I would still tell you to read søren kirkegård or any author writing about stoicism I would give you the same answer that you are seeking from god/gods

But this is just a low effort larp and I get it

>>18170575
And I have all ready answer this here>>18169930

>Some people just live in a culture built on mental illness that doesn't make him ill
But a person seeking it out in most cases are

>Children raised nonreligious turns out nonreligious
Its the same as religious upbringing

>>18170859
>You wouldn't be mad at the idea of the link between mental illness and religion
What link. There is just as great a link between mental illness and social issues/politics.
Are you trying to say that religion arouse out of individuals with a mental illness? You dont have much of an argument to make desu.

>>18170914
For the 8 million time >>18169930 (You)
but its okay at this time I only feel sadness on your behalf
You believe that some belief that you some how are unable to believe would solve some problem or give some kinda meaning

Again søren kirkegård can tell you why you are feeling the way about religion

And stoicism is the philosophy that Christianity is build on

I thought giving you the tools to answer your own question would do you good but no
Doing anything else then what you use to do would take effort and I can't blame you
No one buys any idea that would require any kind of effort instead they pick "five easy steps to becoming X" path in life just know that it doesn't lead you to anything meaningful

>>18171006
That post is meant to be proof that religion=schizophrenia?

>>18170914
Blame your parent for not raising you religious that's your problem unless you could convince you that Santa or the Easter bunny was real but you can't and you will never feel the joy of knowing santa exist
it has be rob from you and what ever you do can't change that unless you take what søren kirkegård called the leap of faith

>>18171015
This is part of the reason why I find modern atheism to be disingenuous. They say all religious people are insane, but the fact is, the vast majority of people on Earth are religious. Given the current paradigm of psychology on whatever the majority's psychological state is classified as "normal" (whatever the fuck that means), it is atheists who are insane since they are in the minority.

>>18171036
You sound schizo.

>>18171015
I'm not gonna keep agureing with you
if you read it you would know but its not my problem that it would be to much effort for retard like you to read anything you might disagree with religion seems like a good fit for your personality
And the only book you are ever gonna pretend to read is the holy bible

>>18171061
Exactly, and it's this statement by atheists that truly shows how delusional and out of touch they are

>>18170082
Amon scientists, probably. Among people in general, especially internationally? No, and if you think it is you live in a very tiny bubble.

>>18171065
As said before I struck a nerve
And that why you choose to act out like a child
Its very telling that you never brought stoicism or
søren kirkegård up
I have place the tools that could give you the understanding you are seeking in your lap and I sources a real sinecenific paper that prove my point I couldn't have hand you any better evidence its the "highs standard" any proving anything yet you want my to read it out loud for you like a child
Again I know this is just a larp for you and it makes its very clear that you are not even trying

>You sound schizo.
Yet early I this thread you asked to define it
So if you don't understand what its is how can you be the judge over what is schizo that's the problem with argument from ignorance too anybody with the just some basic understanding of rhetoric would see through it and understand that you are "acting stupid" but in the end it just make you look stupid

repeatedly pretending to be stupid just make you look stupid
>muh poor mind can't comprehend that's mean what you say is false

Miss me with that sissy shit

I'm gonna stay til this 404 and claim explain why you are a retard and you have to live with that

Men of lesser will would have left long before this

>>18170859
You're a retard.

>>18171186
>call anon a schizo
>he proceeds to schizo post
Lel

>>18171189
Who has de-evolve into pure name caling?
Either you can't defend yourself or you are incapable of doing so

But again you have no beliefs to defend in the first place

>>18171195
That still doesn't address any of the point made now we have hit the argument ad hominem phase of a brainlet with no ground stand debate tactics shortly after this OP will go to pol to be called very gay by arguing for monarchy and when his feelings gets hurt he will return with a thread equal stupid

>screen cap or OP is selfposting to back himself up

pretty sad

This will be the last post in this thread and OP is gay and he's not coming back
The proxy white knight from OP to defender m'lady OP honor where properly the most homosexual thing in this thread
why would you fold over like garden furniture to suck your own dick that pathetic

>>18171271
sober up before shitting up good threads with your delusions faggot

>>18171195
i don't read posts that aren't schizoposts

Contemplation. Finding time alone, and thinking. This changed me from Christian to atheist at age 12, then into something else entirely.

I also had a few mystical experiences that changed my perspective. By that, I mean there were odd occurrences both within me and without that changed my thinking. Some of these were induced by hallucinogenic drugs, some weren't.

Science can't explain consciousness, or what happens to it when a body dies. The most common belief is nonbeing, but that never sat well with me, because you were in a state of nonbeing before you were born, and then you were born. I think reincarnation is most likely. I also think there are lower and higher tiers of existence. And if time is truly spatial, then everything you do is preserved behind you like a footstep in mud, so a post-life judgement by a higher life form isn't unthinkable to me.

>>18171291
Seems like something op would say
Did OP really summon OP to help Defend m'lady OP
> Screen cap or (you) , (you) and (you) Are sucking ( yourself's) dick like a good autosexual cuck would do

>>18171210
You are a retard.

>>18171328
heroin is What you need in your life because you either OD and meet god or you get sober by starting to believe in god

Any thing wrong with this argument OP

>>18163343
>I've been fearing that one day I'll experience something that has no discernable explanation and my whole worldview will shatter

Man this is the definition of a psychosis or mental break down
Pretty funny if you think about

Why did I even bother when OP stated that he would be afraid of by the clinical definition is a psychosis even before I made my first post

Op left again

>>18171359
You: retard.

>>18171387
The go on to claim that its "spirituality"
And get assblasted over the idea that It could have anything to do with mental illness

>>18171402
Are you just gonna stay here and take it?
You ran out of any thing to say long ago

Its like its only the reptile part of your still left on trying faintly defend it self

>>18171402
Do you have some kind of a humiliation fetish ?
If so I might want stop stroking it
are you getting off by being called a little sissy
If not what's you gonna do hit me with your weak sissy

>>18171434
Retard = you.

>>18164173
>I cannot think of a more pathetic reason to adopt a worldview.
I can think of many more pathetic reasons than that
>I adopted XYZ to get laid
>I adopted XYZ as an excuse to abuse others
>I adopted XYZ to get a promotion from my boss
>I adopted XYZ out of fear of mockery
list goes on

>>18163343
I'm a Buddhist now and no

>>18171456
Its all good
it soon gonna be over
And you can finally be with your god/gods
Just breath slowly it would over soon
Don't worry its just the last vital part of your brain that are shutting down its okay just relax OP the old man is waiting for you do you see him just pass through the light and you would be there soon you don't have to be afraid

This dude changed my views regarding spirituality

>>18171232
Just so you're aware, one of the defining symptoms of schizophrenia is disorder of thought. Your posts exemplify that perfectly, what with every sentence being a run-on and seemingly unable to actually finish a sentence without line breaks to interrupt the thought. Half the posts on /x/ are written in the exact same manner.

ironically this thread devolved into a schizophrenic atheist pointing fingers at theists, calling them mentally ill lol

Sad to see that this thread shat itself

>>18163343
>legitimately spiritual
Meaning religion lite? Something that is agreeable to your particular sensibilities without requiring overt and strong beliefs? Kinda like a vibe?

>>18164007
Because
A) The Bible makes a point of proving Jesus' divinity through the miracles. Considering we know for certain Jesus existed historically without even touching any biblical texts this is huge.
B) The Passion of Christ. I'll put it in layman's terms since this might be hard to get. Christ died being mocked and painfully. In other words he died a loser. He did not go on to amass great wealth or political power. By mankind's basic measurements he was not successful.
Contrast all this with say Muhammad, who went up in a cave and came down saying a bunch of oftentimes contradicting things to convince people to follow him so he could raise an army and conquer shit and have sex with 9 year olds.

>>18171548
>Considering we know for certain Jesus existed historically without even touching any biblical texts this is huge.
No, because that doesn’t prove those miracles

>Christ died being mocked and painfully. In other words he died a loser. He did not go on to amass great wealth or political power.
>who were emperors Constantine and Theodosius

Whatever man this shit is boring who cares

>>18171561
>No, because that doesn’t prove those miracles
Oops, youtube video history doesnt go back that far so it must not have happened xD

>>18163343
People have religious experiences all the time, if just an experience is enough for you, you should already believe. But obviously religious experiences lead people to all sorts of different views so they're clearly not reliable guides to what's true.

>>18171548
Blessed again, the community here is very fortunate to feature your angles/insights.

>>18171569
You claim this to be literally true, not me. I don’t need to prove shit, you do. Also, the fact that none of this stuff is corroborated by any outside sources and the fact that the stories get more extraordinary as time goes by is very telling

>>18171561
>Constantine and Theodosius
What do they have to do these two have to do with the correct assertion that Christ died while mocked and shamed, with nothing to his name?

>>18171595
>He did not go on to amass great wealth or political power.
See this? This is something that Constantine and Theodosius did. In fact, without them forcing Christianity down everyone’s throats, it probably would’ve remained a minority faith

>>18171530
Dang OP do you only post on /lit/ because it doesn't have poster id and
That's not really what clinical psychologist would use to diagnose it by you could maybe argue that I might suffer from schizotypal personality disorder
But the basis is lacking I have been checked out as an adult at a psyke but the only thing I got diagnose with is ADHD and I would believe they kinda know
would you care to elaborate

I have read my fair share of skitzo Babel from actual clinical diagnose schizophrenic bad spelling and formatting is not caused by schizophrenia

>>18171605
You do realise that by that point, Christianity had grown to the point where a Roman emperor could make it his state religion and see little to no resistance.

Once again too, how does Constantine and his ilk refute the anons statement on the difference between Jesus and Muhammad?

>>18171605
They weren't really followers of Christ and instituted Christianity for political control. It's fallacious to conflate the Church to the faith and Christ's teachings, and it's pathetic when atheists do this.

>>18171526
Weeeak

>>18163994
>hard problem of consciousness
Yep, majoring in philosophy and having to read the absolute incoherent cope that every materialist philosopher of mind spouts off made me realise that they have no answer, and never will

>>18171532
I will leave this here its the argument by the author

The no you argument also get stale quick and the only reason this thread is still around would be because I have bumped it by calling OP a faggot

Sapolsky issues a disclaimer about what he’s “not saying”: “I’m not saying ‘you gotta be crazy to be religious.’ That would be nonsense. Nor am I saying, even, that most people who are, are psychiatrically suspect.” What he is saying, he continues, is that “the same exact traits which in a secular context are life-destroying” and “separate you from the community” are, “at the core of what is protected, what is sanctioned, what is rewarded, what is valued in religious settings.” What fascinates Sapolsky is the “underlying biology” of these traits. Sapolsky even confesses that he “most regrets” his own break with the Orthodox religion of his upbringing, but that his atheism is something he “appears to be unable to change.” The questions Sapolsky asks broadly cover the physical determinism of gaining faith, and of losing it, which he says, is “just as biological.” What we are to make of all this is a question he leaves open.

>>18171605
Christianity had been growing rapidly before the 4th century.

>>18171652
>"the same exact traits which in a secular context are life-destroying” and “separate you from the community” are, “at the core of what is protected, what is sanctioned, what is rewarded, what is valued in religious settings.”
This only applies to society in the 21st century. None of those traits would have been considered life destroying at any other time in history other than right-fucking-now.
I also refer you to the fact that transgenderism is perfectly welcomed and accepted within that same 21st century secular context, whereas in any other time it would have been actually life-destroying.

>>18171652
your whole warrant is one provocational popsci article about how religious people are kooky? What if I find two provocational popsci articles about how atheists are gay? Do I win?

>>18171496
You're a retard.
Otherwise, you're a troll.
Unfortunately, I'm bored so I've written back.
Regurgitating the same poor argument; it's all you do.
Everyone knows it to.

A child could understand how dumb you are.

Really, you think you've made a point?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The thing is, you just ignored arguments.
As if they didn't disprove what you wrote.
Reasonably speaking, you're a waste of time.
Detrimental to proper cognitive exercise.

>>18171664
He have been studying primitive society too
Yeah and he kinda have a PhD Neuroendocrinolog and teach Neurobiology physiology biological and anthropology but feel free to attack his agurement you properly know better

>>18171561
>that doesn't prove those miracles
It proves the accuracy of the New Testament, which is itself a collection of writings by people around Jesus, not the man himself. There are also disputed instances of Jesus being mentioned as a sorcerer and magical deceiver in the Talmud, though these are admittedly disputed and I won't speak authoritatively on them.
Again, to reiterate, the New Testament was not written by one person. It is a collection of writings written from about 50-110 CE about a common figure. Thus when you ask for "outside proof" you need to elaborate. Everything that's regarded as the "best proof" was adopted as Christian canon and thus no longer "outside" by your standards. Thus asking for "outside proof" is something of a Catch-22.
There were centuries worth of debates of what should be and what shouldn't be considered canon. What proof is "good enough" and isn't "good enough" is ironically still not agreed on between the branches of Christianity.

>>18171573
And thank you, that means a lot

I´ve read Mavrodi and realized god is real

>>18171689
Man if you're just going to do a credentialism and barely speak English while doing so then why bother

>>18171684
Its really funny that I told OP not (you) exactly the same because he didn't want to read by himself dr Robert Sapolsky work on the matter but okay
I could try to explain it but I think there's a YouTube video with he's lecture I could link you also

Its really rich to do the no you argument
The person I talked with only wanted to play a game of dialectic because it would be impossible to disprove mister Robert Sapolsky work its not my opinion

>>18169738
It's so sad that it's not even funny.

>>18170182
>Educate yourself
>Just believe the State Mandated Authorities uncritically
>It isn't like they have a history of lying or anything

>>18171711
If you can't address the real argument why bother
credentialism is not what I'm avocation you could go read about yourself I'm not gonna try to explain a subject that takes at least an hour to explain for grade students by a person that have done it for years in one post with my poor understanding of English and gramma

>>18171713
I'll give it to you straight. You write like a moron--it's super cringey. On top of that, you ignore honest rebuttals of your points; I'm not sure if it's because you're stupid or you're just a troll.

Basically, it isn't that people don't understand your argument and can't rebutt it...it's that you're an idiot. Them giving up doesn't mean you've won anything--it just means they've realized you're a moron and not worth addressing OR they've become frustrated by your stupidity. Either way, people eventually realise you're a waste of time and move on.

You're a retard.

>>18170182
If, as you say, everyone in history except some few modern enlightened redditors has been a "schizophrenic", maybe schizophrenia is the natural state of mankind and you're the ones with mental illness.

>>18171728
If English is your second language I apologize, I am used to this board being occasionally trolled by native-English idiots.
But yeah I'm not even a part of that debate man, I was just passing through and saw someone just citing how smart and educated some dude is without saying anything else.
What exactly is the real argument? The other guy seems to address everything you were actually saying.

>>18168642
Interesting experience anon. Reminds me of Aquinas and Pascal's experiences. Even if it's genuinely supernatural though how do you know not it's not a demon or something?

>>18171752
The guy is just an idiot. Either he's intentionally trolling or he's too ideological to have a discussion with (i.e. you can criticise his points but it will just go over his head). It's like that saying about playing chess with a Pidgeon; you can try but eventually it's going to knock over the pieces, take a shit on the board, and strut around like it won.

>>18171752
No I'm not a native speaker and no I have not engaged any kinda of writing have since school because I obviously suck at it
If you are interested this is the first 2 post that started the sissy fight
>>18169816
>>18169700

>>18171778
Go away retard. Read a book or something.

>>18171787
Don't worry my reading skills are fine and I would have finnish the two treant of government by locke and after that I have picked out the world as will and idea as the next one

I just can't be bothered spell check and proof read for gramma on 4chan

>>18171728
The argument was addressed. You hand waved it with "but he studied primitive societies and has lots of degrees".

>>18171801
Am I supposed to be impressed by what you're reading? My advice is you jump back to YA novels because that's about the level of reading comprehension you've demonstrated on this board.

You're a retard.

>>18171833
So yeah you are kinda late too this go read the whole catch up

Oh and here's the a few the argument OP straight up ignored
>>18171387
>>18171006

And op came with some good arguments like
>but a moron man doesn't act skitzo how come
>is schizophrenia even real
>can you disprove miracles that moses did mhh
>and lets not forget schizophrenia is only in the 21th century before that if you where skitzo you where a okay and able to reproduce

>>18163377
Ewww, its a Gnostic. Why are you guys still around again, with virtually every major religion and its flock having rejected your nonsense doctrine ages ago?

Go to /x/ and pls never come back.

>>18171837
Its funny how you believe somehow writing and reading is the same skill

An it seems like I has right about this too

That still doesn't address any of the point made now we have hit the argument ad hominem phase of a brainlet with no ground stand debate tactics

I Should feel bad for bumping this long dead thread
But with the our combined effort have turned it to shit long ago

And its kinda funny people say shut like
>that's a logical fallacies that you are guilty of both before and after using the exact fallacies them self
>murr intellectual integrity

>>18171870
You are making a far leap to claim religion is 'schizophrenic' when the article you tout as your Bible doesnt even make that claim.

>>18171914
In regards to >>18171652 I'd like you to expand further on what traits are considered life-destroying in a secular context.

>>18171919
I pretty sure I claimed
>religion is connect to mental illness not that its mental its here btw >>18169930 op strengthen goes on to say this
>>18170011

>>18171936
I'm typing this Shit on a phone letting Jesus's take wheel without looking back

>>18171936
Those events are only considered schizo in the modern day, when all traces of spirituality in everyday life has been removed.
Were medicine men not the most well respected men in their tribes?

>>18171923
High suicide rate, a tendency self harm being ostracized from society, Delusions and Hallucinations do not help either ,communication can be impaired and reduced or lack of ability to function normally. For example, the person may neglect personal hygiene or appear to lack emotion

socially withdraw or lack the ability to experience pleasure

I think it where most of it
But people with schizotypal personality disorder can some what maintain a normal life and those are the ones that turns out to be good shamans or priest in primitive society

How does they function? if that where the counter claim

>>18171914
>Its funny how you believe somehow writing and reading is the same skill

I actually said your reading comprehension was shit (nothing to do with your writing...thanks for evidencing my point).

>That still doesn't address any of the point made
I did already: Mormon example and chocolate cake example. Your reading comprehension is shit and you lack the ability to interpret how they demonstrate your argument is false. Instead, YOU fail to address MY point and just restate the argument you initially made.

So, instead of repeating something you're obviously too stupid to understand, I chose to ignore you stating the same thing over and over and just point out you're a fucking idiot.

You retard.

>>18172006
Yes and no
Robert Sapolsky had an anecdote about a primitive tribe in Africa that would hear voice as a part of their ritual but the had a woman with schizophrenia and she was psychotic the tribe wanted nothing to do with her and Robert Sapolsky ask the tribes what where off about the answer he got where she hears voice at the wrong time

Its genetic so their are all ways 1% of people with it that's why it make sense to put it in a evolutionary context and why time, culture and drugs have no effect on it

>>18171833
>>18171914

See, multiple people on the thread are pointing out that you ignore the retorts and just write the same shit over and over. You're too stupid to understand why their arguments undermine your own so you just repeat the same thing as if it's another argument.

You're a complete idiot. It's not that they don't understand what you're trying to say (even if you say it poorly), it's that you are basically a live example of the Dunning Krueger Effect.

>>18172034

And how is this not good enough for the
enough mormon
>Some people just live in a culture built on mental illness that doesn't make him ill

And I can't find you your chocolate cake example
Post >>

A total of 0 people in this thread have ever talked to a spirit, and if they have, they must be correctly put on medication.
Your "turn into spirituality" is just as childish as your first turn into atheism was. People who think they found a new fundamental truth every 2 years deeply disgust me.

>>18170575
I'm not the person you're talking to there, just joined the thread, but I'd like to point out that while religion itself is not a mental disease, many so called religious experiences are entirely congruent with mental diseases.
Stuff like hearing voices, speaking in tongues, self flaggelation and etc could all be considered mental diseases if not for the culturally dominant aspect of particular religions in particular areas. If the world ever became dominated by china for instance I can guarantee you "spirit hearing" Christians would be treated just like gay people are treated by christians.

>>18172081
That's called "begging the question." I noticed someone already called out your tendancy to commit logical fallacies; did they point out that one to you yet? Fuck you're retarded.

I also pointed out the social implications that literally underpin the definition of what makes something a mental illness (i.e. the core of the label is negative social outcomes for an INDIVIDUAL; they are at a poverty when it comes to their daily functioning). By that argument, the label you're trying to use doesn't even fit (hence why I called you out for trying to make the "mind virus"/"ideological meme" argument; you're not even doing that right).

The cake example addressed your argument that the article proved religion is a mental illness because it drew a biological link to a propensity toward religion. It pointed out the unjustified jump you made (i.e. I can make a biological argument for why someone likes to eat chocolate cake, I can then move to an argument about how eating cake may lead to obesity, but I can't argue everyone who eats cake is ill).

So, you're a complete moron who can't understand why he's wrong. You're a fucking retard. You aren't worth having a discussion with because you offer NOTHING. You just make the same mistakes over and over. You're the Pidgeon I mentioned above (i.e. you can try to play chess with a pidgeon...but it will eventually just knock over the pieces, take a shit on the board, and strut around like it won. That's you...but I'd guess the pidgeon is probably smarter.)

You retard.

>>18172060
What standard of proof do you want then?
And the argument >>18171833 who would be fit to tell if a specialist in the field is not trustworthy
If you believe that then you would also have to believe that you can't trust a doctor to fix you up after a car crash if you are passed out and can't be explained the logical mechanical function of what he's doing

What have to be proven for an specialist to have any place in a argument by your standard
It can't be former work or academic achievement by your standard

Or do I need to make logical argument based in metaphors ?

>>18172082
>A total of 0 people in this thread have ever talked to a spirit

This is a straw man position

There may be people in this thread who claim to have spoken to "spirits"

But, broadly speaking spirit refers to the _animating principle_ behind things.

In any endeavour, if you study things deeply enough you will break through the floor and get to a more fundamental principle.

Spirituality, in my view, is about seeking a more fundamental level of _being_ or _existence_

Plenty of people get lost along the way, but that doesn't prove it's a dead end. The only way to determine that is to make the journey yourself.

>>18172128
Need to think a bit longer on this ?

>>18172018
>>18172048
Your are keeping me hanging

>>18172103
Yeah, and that's a fair point and I could discuss it with you. The other guy just posted an article and claimed it proves religion is a mental illness. You can't discuss that with him because he's too dumb to actively engage in critical thinking.

As far as your point about religious experience and mental illness symptoms; it's worthwhile to note that different mental illnesses are expressed, symptomatically, in ways that vary culturally. It underscores the subjective nature of psychology. (It doesn't mean all religious experiences are the result of undiagnosed symptoms of mental illness...taking psychoactive substances is part of a number of religious traditions throughout history and across the globe; mind alteration doesn't demonstrate illness or invalidate religious practise).

>>18163343
Sam Harris

>>18172103
A vision brought on by fasting and prayer is not in any sense a 'mental disease'.
And speaking in tongues has its history in China.

>>18172137

>specialist in the field is not trustworthy
Appeal to authority (another fallacy). Besides, I didn't call your source into question (i.e. you're too stupid to get the point yet again). I showed you, by example, how your reasoning isn't necessitated by its content.

Are you seriously this stupid or are you just trolling? Because if you're just trolling, it's kind of pathetic that you've kept going for this long.

I kind of feel bad for arguing with the Lithuanian guy. Who knows how well he understands english.

>>18172128
I still never claim that religious people as a wider term where mentally ill only that some people use "spirituality" as a coping mechanism for a psychosis when you hear or see thing that are not their is straight up symptoms plus the variant Jesus complex kinda prove my point plus the guy>>18172103


I have claimed that's there a link which I believe you agreed thatt skitzo had a place medicine man

>>18172190
You would know mister clever man
That referring to fallacy is in it self a fallacy
If you have read some dialectics you would know
An true conclusion can come from a false premise but never the other way around

>>18172204
>I still never claim that religious people as a wider term where mentally ill only that some people
Shifting the goalposts (another fallacy).

Can you write just one message without a glaring logical fallacy? You realize this is why you don't have friends and no one respects you on an intellectual level, right?

>>18163343
I was an atheist for many years and believed like most do that materialism is somehow a default position that is devoid of axioms and assumptions. All the exposure I'd had to non-materialist thought consisted either of New Age woo that was absolutely meaningless, or Creationist rejection of obvious and easily verifiable facts.
Then I met someone who introduced me to the Problem of Universals, and from there I began to seriously analyse my own beliefs and discovered that they were founded on a massive pile of unfounded and irrational assumptions and circular reasoning, just as ridiculous as those I'd been mocking. Now I'm a Platonist, leaning to the Iamblichean-Proclean side.

>>18172237
what u think of christian nominalists in middle ages anon

>>18172237
Porphyry is right about the soul where Iamblichus is wrong.

>>18172223
Fuck you're dumb. I'm not saying your initial argument was wrong because of logical fallacy, I'm pointing out the fact you can't generate a retort to counterexamples without using fallacious reasoning.


> Pointing out muh fallacies is a fallacy!
Only when they detract from addressing the content of your argument (i.e. if I said you made an appeal to authority, therefore the arguments based on the article are wrong THAT WOULD BE A FALLACY. I didn't do that).

Fuck, you really are stupid.

>>18172254
Nominalism amounts ultimately to a refusal to acknowledge the problem itself. It's the philosophical equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going 'NEH NEH NEH!'

>>18172255
Proclus reconciled the two positions in a way that accounts for the problems and advantages of both the descent and microcosmic models. See Shaw; Theurgy and the Soul and Chlup; Proclus: An Introduction.

how do spiritual people know they are spiritual?

>>18172272
>Nominalism amounts ultimately to a refusal to acknowledge the problem itself. It's the philosophical equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going 'NEH NEH NEH!'
Seething.

>>18172235
For a guy that talks a lot about fallacy sure uses them a lot
Picking cherries while still not getting around
To
>>18172018
>>18172048
Nor half of this
>>18172137


>>18172235
Where did i it move from ? Then quote the post

>>18172256
But then it would be easy for you to but in simple terms and dismiss it
And I did explain it in the post you chose to ignore

>>18172274
Our poops are glowing.

>>18172300
Lol. I didn't cherry pick you fucking retard. I pointed out multiple fallacies you made after telling you why you aren't worth discussing anything with. Do you even know what cherry picking is? Fuck, you're SO stupid. I actually just laughed.

>But then it would be easy for you to but in simple terms and dismiss it
That doesn't even make sense. MY GOD you're fucking dumb. Hahahaha

>And I did explain it in the post you chose to ignore
I didn't ignore anything. Also, I don't believe you've ignored anything. I believe you're just too stupid to realize why your argument was bad even after its been explained to you by multiple people in various ways!

You're such a fucking midwit. Seriously, you're honestly the dumbest person I've seen on 4chan. I mean that. Seriously.

Bless the anons that are still discussing and trying to bring some sense to the terrible writings of the "stupid anon". Hopefully he will see the light. Let's just be nice and drop the you are retarded, dumb and stupid. If he argues in bad faith, he will receive a similar reward.

>>18172364
I asked you for one thing to answer this
Why do you ignore this?
Is it deflection or what is the Greek word for taking a small part of the greater argument disproved that then claiming you won some how
>>18172018 (You)
>>18172048 (You)

anybody that actual read or practise dialectics would be able to dismiss the argument that even the dump people would clearly understand it
dialectic where used in public forums but you wouldn't know
you have even made argument that go counter to Plato's republic which either tell me that you have not read it or that you disagree on some of the first argument made to build that the republic

>>18172399
I think he's just a troll. I wouldn't be surprised if you're actually him and this has been a pathetic ruse.

>>18172414 (me)
you also claimed I moved goal post but can't tell me from where

You did also agree on the primitive society used skitzo as "medicine men" also called shaman which mean you agree that religion is linked To skitzos and I would say that the shamans would be the the origin of religion

>>18172418
Lol I hope you are not saying that because I might have written my post stupidly...

>>18172274

>how do spiritual people know they are spiritual?

Quick spirituality test: do you think a human being's seat of consciousness is somewhere in the skull and can be identified by the sum of a few electrical impulses?

If no - hi - you're spiritual.

>>18171754
Matthew 12:22-30
>12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
>12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
>12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: >12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
>12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
>12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
>12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

It wouldn't make sense for the devil to tell me to believe in god and live according to Jesus' teachings, it goes against what he wants.

There's always doubt, of course. I've read about hallucinations happening to sane people, so called "anomalous experiences", which are explained as not being supernatural but just an unusual happening in the brain; and I'm sure that happens to some, it is backed up by scientific findings. But I experienced what I experienced, and I don't want to try to convince other people to believe in god ("I swear I saw him, guys, you gotta believe me!"), because I was an atheist before and I know how different people think; it's natural, and good, to be skeptical to a degree.

>>18163343
Really simple. You either don't think about it or think about it in the wrong way. Death will consume us in the end however and it's good to be prepared.

>>18172461
I never said fuck all about medicine men. Get the conversations straight retard.

>>18163343
Gravity's Rainbow