/lit/ - Literature

To do harm to another is to do harm to yourself, karma is a reflection of this

Karma means "actions". It's cause and effect. Your actions affect the birth of some later being. There is a stream of continuity between you and that later being. There is no "why" to it, it's just an intrinsic part of the universe. At a higher level, karma "being" at all is actually just a facet of a certain kind of existence.

>Why is killing and stealing"bad"
Because it results in a later rebirth that is worse off. You could be reborn as a person who suffers a lot, or a toad, or in hell. This could result in you entering a "rebirth spiral" where you just rebirth progressively shittier until, finally, after 6,000 births you get back to human again. This is the very blunt answer, there's obviously stuff like >>18155665 and enlightenment and blah blah blah.

>>18155386
Atman is brahman.

>>18155731
Based supreme self appreciator

>>18155386

The answer to your second question is that killing and stealing are acts which tend to disrupt one's pursuit of the holy life, distracting one from cultivation of fundamental insight (vipassana).

Your first question is far beyond me. I suspect even the Buddha would have passed over it in silence or labeled it an unhelpful distraction. Google "Parable of the Poisoned Arrow" for the Buddha's attitude toward metaphysics.

Actions are divided into good and bad based on the qualities they leave in the mind of the person who does them. Like how donating money gives you a sense of self-esteem and stealing makes you ashamed and anxious.
As far as why it exists, that's just how the mind and the universe work. Having positive mental qualities leads to happiness in the present life as well as a good rebirth. The opposite is true with bad qualities.

>>18155814
What if stealing makes me feel good?

>>18155872
Not vedana (feeling), but root of the action: greed, aversion and delusion are unwholesome, and non-greed, non-aversion and non-delusion

>>18155386
>Why does "karma" exist?
not relevant in buddhism since you don't need this knowledge to kill karma

>>18155386
>Why is killing and stealing"bad" according to Buddha?
because they lead to hell instead of heaven or nirvana

Is there any evidence that karma and rebirth actually exist?

>>18156545
No. Buddhism is the gayest religion of all time. At least hinduism has epic marvel superheros despite being retarded. Inb4 some pajeet replies pretending they don't all go apeshit over superhero movies for this exact reason

>>18155386
It doesn’t. Buddhism is a meme.

>>18156560
yeah retards want entertainment, so their NPC gurus give them just that in order to gt a gullible audience supporting them

Sabbasava Sutta: All the Fermentations
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by dispelling, and those to be abandoned by developing.

>>18156785
"[1] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — does not discern what ideas are fit for attention or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention.

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

>>18156545
yes

>>18156788
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.

>>18156796
"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

>>18156800
"[2] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by restraining? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, dwells restrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were to dwell unrestrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty do not arise for him when he dwells restrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty.

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the ear-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the nose-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the tongue-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the body-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the intellect-faculty. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were to dwell unrestrained with the restraint of the intellect-faculty do not arise for him when he dwells restrained with the restraint of the intellect-faculty. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by restraining.

>>18156807
"[3] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by using? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, uses the robe simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for the purpose of covering the parts of the body that cause shame.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses almsfood, not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification; but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, thinking, 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.'

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses lodging simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for protection from the inclemencies of weather and for the enjoyment of seclusion.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses medicinal requisites that are used for curing the sick simply to counteract any pains of illness that have arisen and for maximum freedom from disease.

"The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to use these things [in this way] do not arise for him when he uses them [in this way]. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by using.

>>18156813
"[4] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating.

>>18156817
"[5] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, avoids a wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer. Reflecting appropriately, he avoids sitting in the sorts of unsuitable seats, wandering to the sorts of unsuitable habitats, and associating with the sorts of bad friends that would make his knowledgeable friends in the holy life suspect him of evil conduct. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to avoid these things do not arise for him when he avoids them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding.

>>18155731
>Atman
do people really

>>18156826
"[6] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence.

Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will...

Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of cruelty...

Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. The effluents, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to dispel these things do not arise for him when he dispels them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by dispelling.

>>18156829
"[7] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing.

"When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing have been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned by restraining have been abandoned by restraining, his fermentations that should be abandoned by using have been abandoned by using, his fermentations that should be abandoned by tolerating have been abandoned by tolerating, his fermentations that should be abandoned by avoiding have been abandoned by avoiding, his fermentations that should be abandoned by dispelling have been abandoned by dispelling, his fermentations that should be abandoned by developing have been abandoned by developing, then he is called a monk who dwells restrained with the restraint of all the fermentations. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering & stress."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.

If even a good man can attain rebirth in the Pure Land, how much more so an evil man.

>>18156848

He who once lived in negligence
And then is negligent no more,
He's the one who brightens this world
— Like the moon released from a cloud.

Who follows up with wholesome deeds
Unwholesome deeds he may have done,
He's the one who brightens this world
— Like the moon released from a cloud.

Indeed that youthful bhikkhu who
Pours himself into the Buddha's teaching,
He's the one who brightens this world
— Like the moon released from a cloud.

Poem written by Angulimala translated by Andrew Olendzki

>>18156560
Seethe

it doesn't exist. otherwise, the very rich and evil men of the world continue to grow richer and eviler

>>18155690
>Because it results in a later rebirth that is worse off.
This is not univocally true. It's essentially a matter of psychology rather than a brute "physical" fact. If an act is done impiously, with feelings that cause karmic formations (which are only one level above ignorance in the hierarchy of dependent origination) to intensify and solidify, then those karmic formations create a new consciousness which reflect its karmic origin at the end of the present consciousness. This is why Buddhists, non-Arahants but close to that stage, can kill themselves without achieving worse rebirths. It's not a matter of suicide out of despair or contempt, it's active suicide done with special psychological preparation and concentration. The same can be said of all acts done by those with or nearing Enlightenment, including the act of killing and all other typically immoral acts. The only question would be: Why would they do such a thing? And obviously, for normal people who are not nearing Enlightenment, murder and suicide would 99.9% of the time be an act of ignorance which intensifies karmic formations, therefore the Buddha saw fit to advise against it.

>>18156885
wouldnt*

>>18156885
>the very rich and evil men of the world continue to grow richer and eviler
Isn't that what's happening, though?

>>18156900
you're right. i post too fast for my own good.

>>18156785
i read all of these, thank you for posting them

>>18155386
It was an easy way to get people to consider the effects of their actions.

>>18156918
It's worth reading the Middle Length Discourses. The Suttas are relatively short and interesting (if you just skip over the bits where it's occasionally repetitive). It'll give you a different view of Buddhism to that which is typically given (especially when you see Gotama threatening to explode a brahmin's head for his insolence).

>>18156960
>especially when you see Gotama threatening to explode a brahmin's head for his insolence
can... can he do that? is that allowed?

>>18156971
Technically in the passage he was threatening to summon Indra to do the deed for him. He didn't actually go through with it, so it may have been an empty threat. The brahmin fell in line.

>>18155665
>To do harm to another is to do harm to yourself, karma is a reflection of this

But self doesn't exist in Buddhism.

If there was some, I don't know, religion that developed the concept of karma alongside its concept of the self and how it relates to ultimate reality then I would understand the strictures against killing, but Buddhism, being a self-denying system of ancient nihilism using the concept just doesn't make sense.

>>18156971
>Ambhatta remained silent [...] "Answer me now, Ambhatta, this is not the time for silence. Whoever, Ambhatta, does not answer a fundamental question put to him by a Tathagata by the third asking has his head split into seven pieces." And at that moment, Indra, holding a huge iron club, flaming, ablaze and glowing, up in the sky just above Ambhatta, was thinking: "If this young man Ambhatta does not answer a proper question put to him by the Blessed Lord by the third time of asking, I'll split his head into 7 pieces!" The Lord saw Indra, and so did Ambhatta. And at this sight, Ambhatta was terrified and unnerved.
Ambhatta Sutta 1.20-1.21

>>18156993
Buddhism is not nihilism. In fact, the Buddha himself goes into this in multiple suttas, how it is wrong view to believe that nothing matters and there are no consequences to the actions of living beings. I think it is oversimplification to say the self does not exist in Buddhism. It does and does not, neither is a foundational, stable truth, both being empty.

>>18157047
>>18156993
I am not qualified really to speak on this complex topic, in truth, but you may find your answer in this sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html

>>18157075
It's actually quite simple. Buddhism denies self because it is actually still a kind of vulgar clinging to Samsaric impurities in most people, even among the higher born who are still not quite close enough to Enlightenment. Affirming the self would only be catering to these vulgar tendencies and reinforcing them.

Femme fatale as a secret agent

To undermine a ruling oligarchy, make chiefs of the [enemy's] ruling council infatuated with women possessed of great beauty and youth. When passion is roused in them, they should start quarrels by creating belief (about their love) in one and by going to another.

— Arthashastra 11.1[105][106]

>>18157091
This is reasonably accurate. The people who are beyond the psychological need (clinging/tanha) for the acknowledgement of a self or soul, like many other monists, are thus naturally attracted to Buddhism and can go beyond that lower stage of spirituality which is obsessed with vulgar Ego.

>>18157091
If only you could have posted this in the guenon threads, life would be so much easier

>>18157159
>soul or self
>vulgar Ego.
pick one you nihilist brainlet, they aren’t the same thing

>>18157337
I never said they were. But most people have a habit of not being able to distinguish between them, which is why Buddhism simply rejects them. It's not interested in compromises or trying to make people understand before they're capable or ready of understanding. If I tell you that you possess a soul or self, you're more likely to simply accept that and not progress any further on your path to Enlightenment. And not only that, but you'll probably confuse your vulgar Ego for the self, because you lack real Enlightenment.

>>18155386
>Why is killing and stealing"bad" according to Buddha?
Because to the Buddha all is Atman. The Vedas knew that all is Brahman.
>karma
Your understanding of karma is probably the pop culture version. "Real" karma is entirely distinct and as a concept entirely out of scope here. Read the Gita; Easwaran's translation. It's got a lot of really great essays which help contextualize what will be a deluge of alien concepts.

>>18157368
Give us dem essays man

>>18157356
>but most people have a habit of not being able to distinguish between them, which is why Buddhism simply rejects them
talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, all you have to do is explain how to distinguish them which is not hard

>>18155386
Violence is entropic, like masturbation

>>18157408
It's not something that can BE merely explained. That is why Buddha calls it the Demon of Dialectics, because it tricks you into false belief.

>>18157440
Entropic to what? Buddhists can't answer this. They talk about effects but the minute you ask them what is being effected they clam up.

>>18157467
vedana is affected duh

>>18157463
>It's not something that can BE merely explained.
>le supernatural master says its too contradictory so I have to let myself get cucked out of acknowledging that my soul exists
Yes it can quite easily be explained - the self or soul is the self-revealing awareness in which everything else appears. It is different from the waking, dream and deep sleep states as the continuous presence in which they comes and go, those not being changes to consciousness or self as such but are only different configurations of the images appearing within the span of its luminous presence

>That is why Buddha calls it the Demon of Dialectics, because it tricks you into false belief.
No, this is just one of the beliefs that buddhists have to adopt in order for their worldview to remain more consistent, it’s just a dogma like any other though

>>18157710
If you really need to believe in a soul, then so be it. Buddhism might not be for you.

>>18157710
>get cucked out of acknowledging that my soul exists
why are tourists like this
stop ruining the only board that isn't flodded with your shitty culture

>>18155386
imo
karma is a way to get the individual to be cognizant of the need for balance of give and take, which equates to personal transmutation
reality also acts as a mirror. you get what you give

killing and stealing is bad according to buddha because buddha was representing a certain degree of what he knew
he knew more than he expressed
i believe enlightenment to be based on the person entering it
you become aware of knowledge outside of you, as emptiness
but what you take and propagate tends to have to do with you personally
like how "the tao that can be spoken is not the eternal tao". ANY. ANY rhetoric about enlightenment is subject to forms (words, rules, laws), and subject to time. both of these are what i call masculine principles as they are form first, and the feminine being the existential and force-oriented nature

in life there is only a wheel
meaning we can go in any sort of direction. it depends on what the mass of energy is feeling and valuing that guides direction. hence you have all these warring ideologies trying to yank us in certain directions.

buddhas direction was that killing was bad, but killing just -is-. it is only a way. nature truly is a heterarchy, and those whom CAN, with regards, reflection, and respect to the mass of energy, be it reflection of how they're naturally feeling based on their physical environment, or coaxed in by influencing their mind, end up determining direction, hierarchy, and time.

nature as a heterarchy means all is truly equal.
christiandom talks about "falling from heaven". this just means acting in a way which pulls you from the state (existential "experience") of enlightenment.
however, there are things the enlightened cannot do in regards to the human drama. i dont believe you can be in that state and act in certain ways that may be "needed" or at least people are interested in engaging in.
this is the idea of eve eating the apple, and pulling us from the state of enlightenment.
but enlightenment is a state just like any other state. it's not a "fall" because it is truly equal.
however it tends to be more rare and sought after, because as we currently know it, it's much more challenging for us to achieve it relative to what we are accustomed to.

the reason i say this, is that all things come at a cost. killing, be it humans, animals (same thing?), or anything that exhibits stress responses and pain by the act thus begins to reflect reality. some mushrooms will have stress responses for example, while plants wish to be eaten by humans.

the animal kingdom probably has its balance sorted out for these things
i dont know if its collective consciousness, meaning if all of us were in the state of enlightenment, and one of us broke from it, it would affect us all, or if its entirely individual.

anyway, eating meat and killing will pull you from this state. it will put you into a different state. something more preditorial, which also has its uses
cont.

>>18158150
Karmic action and result is just karmic action and result, without meaning until you assign it. It's good to learn from it, but hindering to be deluded beyond that.

>>18158150
buddha could not represent buddha if he was not buddha
men who enter enlightenment tend to bring back more rigid systems that are empirical
this is why many of the "enlightened women" figures you see are more like form and shape shifting, because they bounce in and out of different shapes, states, forms, for different needs as they feel is needed

times change, and thus so do i believe the "rules" on these things change.
nature is not static and different things will mean different things at different times.
meaning if you find yourself in a very preditory and war-torn world, then killing might be the "right" thing. i imagine there is a sort of "dark path" to enlightenment in this fashion, but this is treating that stuff dualistically and "bad"
what matters, imo, is the times
and i dont entirely believe in things like kali yuga and stuff. i think in cognizance of these things, we have the opportunity to change course at any point, even if there is still some degree of a thread of time. maybe we choose whether we lean more into it or away from it. im not sure

im sort of convinced that it time is space, and that where we are in space, alongside the placement of the celestial bodies, affect a lot of how we're feeling and where we are going. so then it becomes about knowing what they're saying at any given time so you can adequately reflect what the space and time calls for. these bodies and our placement in space in general has us receiving frequencies constantly that alter how we act
there is a good post on reddit here https://www.reddit.com/r/OfficialIndiaReddit/comments/jh2zrx/devi_mahatmyam_an_ancient_hindu_text_encoding/
that talks about the effects of frequencies on our brain and body, into our cells.
i also think how we feel and how we act will also alter the direction of the planet to some degree, and thus the solar system, etc. relatively small but still. at least this is just my belief

OT a bit but w/e

>>18158177
theres no meaning, sure
but these things still have certain effects
potentially based on how they've been "programmed", and there is potential for change about what means what
we are projecting this "meaning" onto reality, and thus so it reflects

>>18158198
i want to say there is no intrinsic meaning or no set meaning
but it is like Maya
we make meaning and that meaning actually -does- something. it's not nothing, despite the fact that we have the ability to change it and thus change reality
but the projection of meaning is creative in reality
its just that there is no intrinsic meaning, allowing generation after generation to shape this place

>>18158202
>>18158202
meaning is not relevant in buddhism

>>18158218
Meaning is highly relevant because meaning can obstruct entry to enlightenment. Of course it can all go out the window if you stumble upon the sudden entry and keep it to yourself, but it's important if you want to teach it.

Keeping it to yourself is as unnatural as not telling your friends about a good movie you saw

>>18158232
yeah
it itself would say that it is a state just like any other
but the rarity of it in our lives makes for a very potent, blissful, and unique experience with certain wisdom and feeling we are dissociated from in our time.
the problem with getting hung up on it is that you can miss out on living, so it would say "just act", i think

it also says help others reach enlightenment, so obviously there is "value" and thus meaning, purpose, or reason for doing so

>>18158218
also i went outside buddhism a fair amount with my comment, hence why i referenced Maya

my original comment was saying that yeah these are just different things that happen cause and effect type stuff
here's my take on why karma exists
maintaining balance and offering you the opportunity to transmute energy in reality

>>18158260
Much so.