/lit/ - Literature

why don't you just kill yourself then?

>>17926557
Too late, the tragedy is having existed.

>>17926581
how is "having existed" somehow worse than existing?
and how is "having existed" different from not existing after you die?
>implying you're atheist

All the antinatalists and child free people I know are not fit to have children, and if it was up to me, they would be forbidden from having them. Their mind is polluted by consumerism and extreme selfishness.
Antinatalism is god's way of preventing those people from spreading their genes.
Which is why I support antinatalism, people who are beneficial to society won't adhere to the ideology anyways.

>>17926551
being born with looks like that just imagine the pure bliss life would be if you looked like that

>>17926605
shut up incel

>>17926610
>shut up incel
did he lie?

>>17926551
the r/childfree subreddit

>>17926594
It's not worse, but it also isn't necessarily better. Suicide solves the problem of continued existence, but it won't help with the problem of having existed. Antinatalism helps with both (for your potential children at least).

>>17926599
>All the antinatalists and child free people I know are not fit to have children, and if it was up to me, they would be forbidden from having them.
That'll show 'em!

>>17926551
>But muh suffering-
What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, are merely information before the senses. Data fed into the computer of the mind.

>>17926551
Life isn't supposed to be free of worries or suffering. There is no way to differentiate between suffering and joy without there being a whole range of possible emotions and states. Suffering can spring forth self development, growth, and achievement. Wanting a life free of suffering is something that a reddit bugboy who daydreams about the singularity would want. Those who cannot survive will perish.
The universe is absurd and you better come to grips with it.

>>17926599
In my view, you have it completely backwards. Being anti-natalist is about noting the terrible things like rampant consumerism + relative poverty in the West, mixed with absolute poverty elsewhere, because of the very selfishness and solipsistic view of many people and by extension, systems in the world.
I don't want my children to a) suffer in this world and b) make anyone else suffer. And this is increasingly unlikely in the globalised hellhole we have found ourselves in.
And yes, I will kill myself. I'm waiting for my parents to die first, thank you.

>>17926628
>That'll show 'em!
That's not the point, sometimes they can accidentally have children

>>17926551
Doesn't matter. An anti-Natalist's genes will not survive, and isn't that the only thing that matters?

>>17926599
it's usually people who are slightly above average in intelligence and moral sentiment who end up like this
meanwhile braindead retards breed like rabbits
so much so for gods ways

>>17926599
Antinatalism is out of control individualism caused by an insane concentration of wealth in a small part of the population (relative to globally). It's a short-term strategy that ends as soon as you die and have no kids.

>>17926551
im an antinatalist but im bored so im gonna argue for the natalist side this time

the worst of the worst is definitely not good, but if there is a chance (stable family, 1st world country, the right balance of parenting, guaranteed future, healthy genes, free time, a good life in comparison...) to live a bareable life, one can find fullfilment in aesthetic pursuits. occasional beauty is the one thing this world has going for it. something like music straight up has inherent meaning to it.

while even the most adventureous life is repetitive af and the patterns are obvious and inescapable, occasionally something interesting will happen.

while everything good about life will end (and usually fleets pretty fast or turns out to be fake and leaves you even more hollow), some things will always have been good in the moment. wether thats worth it is you calculation.

of course those things only matter if youre born. but most people who have kids arent even natalists. they have kids because they dont wanna die alone and they fear to lose a relationship or they have this intense biological desire for it. wether any of that is justified is your calculation.

those are the best arguments i could come up with. but natalists are always either retarded and naive, evil, or lost in their own cope

>>17926672
It's western sentimentalism and secularized Christianity.
>look at how tolerant, loving, and caring I am
>I will even ensure the destruction of my genes to prove it!
>I am, therefore, morally superior.
It's the same type of people who encourage and support the mass migration of non-Europeans into Europe. Ultimately, they are simply nihilists, which makes their position untenable anyway. Why would a nihilist care about alleviating suffering?

>>17926684
>1st world country
This shows how naive you are.
Do you really think little Umbookwo born in a remote Congo village is depressed and sad because he is seen as poor and destitute by someone like you? Little Umbookwo doesn't even realize or think he is poor and living a horrible life. He loves the life he lives and enjoys it. Dumb shit head antinatalist. Suffering is relative. It is not objective.

>>17926551
"I wish your parents would have thought the same."

>>17926628
>it will not help with the problem of having existed
How is that even a problem once you're dead
How can dead people have problems you sperg

>>17926772
Uh, yes? I unironically wish my parents would have thought the same.

>>17926772
"I agree."

>>17926827
Nothing is stopping you from killing yourself if it's so bad, incel.

>>17926831
see
>>17926581

(Also not an incel. No idea where that came from.)

>>17926855
How is it a tragedy?
Why do you care?

>>17926772
"Me too you stupid faggot."

>>17926855
The tragedy is that you won't follow your position to its logical conclusion and instead choose to stay around and be an annoying little homosexual.

>>17926551
> arguing against something obviously stupid and wrong
That's one tactic (((they))) use to make you lose: they're, effectively, shitposting and you're trying to argue with shitposts rationally.

>>17926869
> incel
> annoying little homosexual

why are you so angry?

>>17926886
This is 4chan, we are rude to each other no good reason. Get used to it, kiddo.
Reddit is down the hall and to the left.

>>17926551
I really don't care if you don't want to have kids, as long as you don't care about other people having them. I really can't stop you from being a sorry sack of shit that thinks life is worse than having never existed, but I think life is pretty neat and I'm glad to be alive. Experience is subjective, my life experience has been a net positive so far, and I choose to believe that my child will enjoy life on a similar order of magnitude as me.

>>17926692
>Why would a nihilist care about alleviating suffering?
i don't think that you need to believe in metaphysical stuff or in absolute moral standards to feel compassion and act on it.
That being said i agree that they are secularized christians who should either go full nietzsche or back to christianity

>>17926551
Impregnating a woman

>>17926599
>>17926672
>>17926692
How the fuck did Westerners even manage to 'think' themselves to ultimately suicide like this? Have any other cultures in history done this?

reminder that all countries except two or three still wipe their asses with paper. if you dont see why thats bad, youre spirit is kneedeep in stocholm syndrome

>>17926599
They are victims of that ideology. Better they had been raised with wholesome doctrine and not been broken.

>>17926551
there is a antinatalism argument for children tho

>>17926914
There have been periods within civilizations (there we cults around the time of Jesus who preached antinatalism because living was suffering). Similar stuff among the Greeks. But at the scale of an entire civilization. I don't think so.

>>17926639
Why not kill yourself now? Or are you admitting that your existence brings greater joy to others than your nonexistence?

>>17926927
Christ, how do I cope with this? Anyone have advice for surviving the suicide of a civilization?

>>17926941
I think the only thing you can do is create your own pocket dimension outside of the culture, where you can live with your own values. There are many hardcore religious groups around, if that's your persuasion.

>>17926914
hmm i think cathars and gnositc christians in general had views that would have lead them to a collective demographic suicide (we will never know because catholics genocided them)

Do not argue with them. I'm yet meet one of these people that isn't a hardcore open borders leftist. Let them die off.

>>17926941
Civilizations fall, and new ones emerge from the ashes. Form one of the nuclei from which that will happen.

>>17926957
Very short-sighted. Conservatives reproduce genetically, liberals memetically. You can't just ignore the problem.

>>17926978
>liberals memetically
only on susceptible phenotypes

>>17926991
Unironically most good looking antifa mugshot I've been, but that's not saying much.

why is suffering even supposed to be bad

>>17926929
> Or are you admitting that your existence brings greater joy to others than your nonexistence?
One can freely admit that without damage to arguments in favor of antinatalism.

If anything, this is an excellent argument why antinatalists shouldn't outright kill themselves: if their existence brings joy to others, killing themselves could be considered selfish, as would having children purely for you own enjoyment.

>>17926991
Many of those would look very different under another set of political grooming standards.

>>17926672
>it's usually people who are slightly above average in intelligence and moral sentiment who end up like this
Slightly above average IQ yes, but mentally ill and not 'moral' rather a hysterical moralizer, so in general not a great loss for music

>>17927011
I think its intuitively bad. Its satisfying to overcome suffering, but suffering with no payoff is just suffering. Assuming heaven doesn't exist, if life is all suffering with no payoff why bother?
I'm not an antinatalist.

I'm really only antinatalist with regards for two things:

1. Perpetual population growth. Stupid idealism.
2. People unfit for procreation. Genetic abnormalities that are passed on; abusive persons that will pass it on to the child(ren); etc.

>>17926599
>people who are beneficial to society won't adhere to the ideology anyways.
Uhhh anon

>>17927026
Where in a person's lifetime does the curve of suffering become negative or positive? Clearly right now you're providing positive value.

>>17927036
>intuitively bad
aka muh feefees

>>17926973
>>17926978
>>17927007
> There are only conservatives and liberals
> Any position on any topic puts you in one of those two groups
> Antifa = liberal
Why are mutts like this?

Antinatalism is simply sour grapes. Remember back in high school when you would come in a Monday and find out people you though were your friends did something fun over the weekend? Remember that? And remember how you would say to yourself, "Well I wouldn't have gone if they asked me anyways!" or "Well that didn't sound that fun at all! My weekend was much more fun!" Yeah, that's antinatalism but their sour grapes are about procreation. "No woman wants to bear my child, well, I'll just come up with a whole philosophy which proves having children is morally wrong!"

Plus anytime you push an antinatalist on any of their positions they inevitably contradict themselves. Some antinatalists have alread used the tired argument of third world countries existing. First off, people in third world countries think they're living great lives. They really aren't that aware of how much better their lives could be. To them their lives are normal and they enjoy them. Every time you see video footage of some remote African or Indian village all the people are happy even though to someone living in the first world they appear destitute and poor. But secondly and most importantly, when antinatalists use the "third world" position they are actually contradicting themselves. Antinatalists are mostly against living and life because of the knowledge of death. Every antinatalist fears death and can't cope with having to die. That's their main issue with life, the knowledge of death. So antinatalists are against procreation but if you were to ask them to take a similar position to animal life which is non-human or plant life, they would not argue that dog's should stop procreating, that cows should stop procreating, that plants should stop sowing seeds, etc. The reason they will give is because these forms of life don't have a knowledge of death and what it "truly" brings. But this line of argumentation contradicts their "third world" positions. Because again people in the third world don't really understand that they are living awful, poor, and destitute lives. This viewpoint only comes from someone living in the first world.

Lastly antinatalism is retarded because it's only men who are subscribing to this idiotic notion. Guess what retards! pulling yourself from the gene pool (thank God for that) only works if you can get women to do it too. Otherwise people will still procreate and you pulling yourself out from the gene pool has achieved nothing. Chances are if you're an antinatalist (again sour grapes here) you had no chances of procreating anyways. Now if women started subscribing to antinatalism, it might be an ideological position worthy of attention to BTFO. But since it's only men, who cares. Women are still going to have sex and have children. It takes 1 man to impregnate 100 hundred women, but if there are 100 men and 1 female, only 1 man will pass on his genes.

>>17927053
Never mentioned liberals, I'm not American, and was just commenting on a mugshot. Why do you people keep bringing up americans?, do you spend all day thinking about them, with seething hatred or something?

>>17927047
By my definition of bad (something to be avoided), and my definitions of suffering (something that causes pain), and that my argument is supposed to apply to most humans in most situations, yes suffering is bad because humans tend to avoid painful things in most situations. This should be intuitive. As to if people SHOULD avoid suffering, in my post I answered this by claiming that suffering is good if it is overcome.

>>17927079
Suffering is relative. Extremely rich people think the middle class suffers they can't take a vacation to Majorca every spring, summer, fall and winter. First worlders thinkg third worlders are suffering because they don't have running water, paved streets, movie theaters, etc. It's all relative and your view of suffering does not hold for the majority of the human race. Get over yourself. The problem with anitnatalists is they can't conceptualize other people having different viewpoints than them.

>>17927077
Sorry, misclicked. I meant the post above yours.

>>17927053
Because that is reality, you either support proglib regime or you don't, antifa are their bitches

>>17927062
From personal experience I can confidently say that almost everything in this post is wrong, which is kind of impressing, considering its length.

>>17927092
>Suffering is relative.
I agree
>The problem with anitnatalists is they can't conceptualize other people having different viewpoints than them.
I agree
>Get over yourself
ok? All I said was that suffering is intuitively bad and that overcoming it is a good thing. I definitely am not saying that emotion is non-relative lmao. I'm also not an anti-natalist.

>>17927053
because functionally that's how people divide themselves
you might think that antifa is fundamentally different than liberals but they end up helping each other and work for the same masters so it doesn't matter

>>17927062
From personal experience I can confidently say that almost everything in this post is wrong, which is kind of impressive, considering its length.

>>17927139
>I can say
Then why don't you.

>>17927148
Well from my experience I can say you're wrong so tough luck pal

>>17927148
Notice how this poster claims something which he never plans to produce the proof of. If he could destroy the argument in this post >>17927062 why didn't he just do it?

>>17927171
too much effort for too small a reward

>>17927062
If sad people remove themselves from the genepool that means more people with a happier disposition get to stay. As long as antinatalists don't enforce their beliefs on others, its kinda based.

>>17927183
>too much effort for too small a reward
That's because you can't think up a lie good enough to masquerade as personal experience to try to dismantle anything that was said.
>>17927190
This is my position. Please antinatalists, keep on being antinatalists, but just know that deep down your position is based on sour grapes.

Only subhumans procreate

Empedocles - no kids, an hero
Heraclitus - no kids
Silenus - no kids
Parmenides - no kids
Plato - gay nigga
Epicurus - no kids
Epictetus - no kids
Bodhidharma - no kids
Zhuang - no kids
Abhinavagupta - no kids
Shankaracharya - no kids
Mani - no kids
Al-Kindi - no kids
Al-Farabi - no kids
Averroes - no kids
Avicenna - no kids
Aquinas - no kids
Spinoza - no kids
Kant - no kids
Leibniz - no kids
Hume - no kids
Kierkegaard - no kids
Fourier - no kids
Schopenhauer - no kids
Stirner - no kids
Mainländer - no kids, an hero
Nietzsche - no kids
Weininger - no kids, an hero
Michelstaedter - no kids, an hero
Spengler - no kids
Wittgenstein - gay nigga
Zapffe - no kids
Weil - no kids
Evola - no kids
Arendt - no kids
Beauvoir - no kids
Sartre - no kids
Debord - no kids, an hero
Caraco - no kids, an hero
Cioran - no kids
Althusser - no kids
Foucault - gay nigga
Kaczynski - no kids
John Gray - no kids

>B-but pessimism is modern bugman invention
Pessimism is an ancient Greek philosophy. Pessimists are way more trad and closer to ancient folk than any esoteric trad larper.

>"You, most blessed and happiest among humans, may well consider those blessed and happiest who have departed this life before you, and thus you may consider it unlawful, indeed blasphemous, to speak anything ill or false of them, since they now have been transformed into a better and more refined nature. This thought is indeed so old that the one who first uttered it is no longer known; it has been passed down to us from eternity, and hence doubtless it is true. Moreover, you know what is so often said and passes for a trite expression. What is that, he asked? He answered: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing among humankind. At first he could offer no response, and was obstinately silent. At length, when Midas would not stop plaguing him, he erupted with these words, though very unwillingly: 'you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can.' It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living."

– Aristotle, Eudemus (354 BCE)

>>17927062
>>17927162
>it's only men who are subscribing to this idiotic notion
In my experience it is mostly women with university degrees. It is tragic but somewhat comedic having to hear female students/careerists/academics parrot all exact same antinatalist talking points as demonstrated in the intro to the video bellow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBycbqNN388

>>17926551
meaning of life is to breed, and if you don't know this deep in your belly, you're a fucking retard who shouldn't breed.

>>17927171
>>17927154
Alright.

I don't want children, and I ended a relationship over that, so the argument ("sour grapes") in the first paragraph is wrong.

The second paragraph presents two views, each of which is (allegedly) held by some antinatalists. The posters argument is that those are contradicting, but nowhere does it say that there are antinatalists that hold both of those views at the same time. I don't particularly care about the third world, so it surely doesn't apply to me.

I know antinatalist women, so the third paragraphs is wrong as well.

Happy now?

>>17927203
>lists a bunch of societal outcasts and thinks this proves his point
The intelligence of the average antinatalist is shockingly low.

natalism is proof for the matriarchy

>>17927217
>I don't want children, and I ended a relationship over that, so the argument ("sour grapes") in the first paragraph is wrong.
Telling yourself it's not sour grapes doesn't mean it's not sour grapes
>The second paragraph presents two views, each of which is (allegedly) held by some antinatalists. The posters argument is that those are contradicting, but nowhere does it say that there are antinatalists that hold both of those views at the same time. I don't particularly care about the third world, so it surely doesn't apply to me.
Categorically wrong. Every antinatalist fears death. Otherwise they would commit suicide and cease living. Many antinatalists in this thread have used the third world argument, the suffering argument etc., and many more will use it to justify their position.
>I know antinatalist women, so the third paragraphs is wrong as well.
There are female to male trannies but that still doesn't change the fact that trannydom is mostly men. Same thing with antinatalism.

>>17927220
>societal outcasts
You're on a philosophy board, dumb retard.

>>17926551
Licenses should be required for reproduction

>>17927199
Whoever posted
>too much effort for too small a reward
wasn't me, but I also didn't think anyone would take a claim that there are no antinatalist women seriously.

See
>>17927217

>>17927238
Search for antinatalists on YouTube, most of them are women.

>>17927239
No you dumb retard you're on a literature board. Philosophy isn't literature. If you want a fucking philosophy board go to >>>/his/ or beg the moderation to create one. Know your place outcast.

>>17927263
>on YouTube
>most are Women
Want to BTFO my telling me all rocks are red on Mars when I say most rocks are grey?

>>17927217
Are you antinatalist (everyone should not have kids) or just childfree (I dont want kids)?

>>17927238
>that still doesn't change the fact that trannydom is mostly men
As I understand it, this is no longer correct.

>>17927062
>Monday and find out people you though were your friends did something fun over the weekend?
or maybe you aren't the type who enjoys such social interactions, but of course preferences aren't real in your mind
>"No woman wants to bear my child, well
Have you ever been outside? Have you seen the kinds of people who manage to reproduce? Don't make me laugh.
>tired argument of third world countries existing
yeah that's not really an argument used by anti-natalist outside of wine aunts who aren't really idiologically on the anti-natalist side
>Every antinatalist fears death and can't cope with having to die. That's their main issue with life, the knowledge of death
Generally they just accept it, instead of using religious coping.
>imilar position to animal life which is non-human or plant life, they would not argue that dog's should stop procreating, that cows should stop procreating, that plants should stop sowing seeds
Diffirences in cognitive faculties lead animals to feel less pain and to not being capable of perceiving emotional pain.
>it's only men who are subscribing to this idiotic notion
there is a hell of a lot of women in anti-natalist subs, but i'm not sure of the exact sex proportion
>It takes 1 man to impregnate 100 hundred women
yes we all love inbreeding anon

But most of all you don't understand the general position due to your limited capabilities.
Not even wrong, you just don't know what you are talking about.

>>17927238
> sour grapes
Ah yes, the famous fable where the fox was able to reach the grapes, but didn't eat them because they're FUCKING SOUR.

>>17927266
Go fuck yourself faggot. This is also a philosophy board. But you have inspired me to make list of child free poets and authors so thank you.

>>17927275
Then go ask every person this question personally. Till then we can say nothing.

>>17927190
>>17927199
>This is my position. Please antinatalists, keep on being antinatalists
No it isn't, you wouldn't be so emotionally invested in this if it was true. You are trying to do reverse psychology (see that you can't have it but others can please start wanting it) but you are bad at it.

>>17927283
Are you sure that the word antinatalism implies that strong of a statement? My understanding is that it's just something that encompasses a spectrum from "childfree" to what I'd call extreme antinatalism (everyone should not have kids).

>>17927294
Being this retarded.
>>17927307
>nnooooooo you can't just say you're happy that I'm not procreating why would you argue against my position then
Classic antinatalist who can't conceive of positions other than his own. I'm trying to save susceptible people from falling prey to your malicious ideology.

>>17927351
>I'm trying to save susceptible people from falling prey to your malicious ideology.
If they are, aren't they inferior for being susceptible to it?
Aren't you a Chad social darwinist?

>>17926551
all babies deserve to get borned

>>17927307
If you want to believe that you sure can. Yeah my post is partially tongue-in-cheek but I would genuinely like to live in a happier society.

>>17927345
I think a lot of people assume that antinatalism means extreme antinatalism yes. I like your definition, but be wary that a lot of people will assume you want all of humanity to be eradicated.

>>17927380
>Yeah my post is partially tongue-in-cheek
I hope so, otherwise i'd be talking with an absolute retard who thinks that depressed people don't reproduce

>>17927414
I don't want depressed people to reproduce; I know that depressed people reproduce. Hence, if depressed people don't reproduce thats based.

>>17927426
>I don't want depressed people to reproduce
Nice way to filter most of the high iq people.

>>17927433

>>17927426
yeah your error is in thinking that anti-natalism == depression, next error is not understand that depression is an evolutionary mechanism ( a cry for help) which usually facilitates survival and reproduction rather than having negative effects, another error is in thinking that you can weed out a genetic trait that manifests in specific conditions as an evolutionary adaptation to environmental conditions
but brainlets are gonna be brainlets

>>17927351
> Being this retarded.
kek, such eloquence. just admit that the sour grapes shit is stupid. heck, you can trivially sire a child by going to a sperm clinic, no need to even clear to low bar of wooing someone.

Could antinatalism be considered some cope for the fear of death? Is that a root cause?

>>17927484
Could natalism be considered some cope for the fear of death? Is that a root cause?

>>17927484
The subject will cease to exist so how it will be "cope" from death when fear will cease to exist?

>>17927448
>yeah your error is in thinking that anti-natalism == depression
Ok sure maybe, you should be able to not have kids even if your a happy person and not be judged for it. I would wager that antinatalists are disproportionately depressed, although I have no evidence for this.
>next error is not understand that depression is an evolutionary mechanism ( a cry for help) which usually facilitates survival and reproduction rather than having negative effects
Thats sadness, when I say depression I mean the disorder.

>>17926599
why dont you support abortion then?
christcucks BTFO once again

>>17927502
>I would wager that antinatalists are disproportionately depressed
based on personal opinion i'm guessing
>Thats sadness, when I say depression I mean the disorder.
no i mean both sadness and the disorder, read the literature on the potential explenations of depression as an evolutionary strategy among animals

>>17927506
>doesn't mention Christianity, and make an argument about why Antinatalists shouldn't reproduce
>CHRISTKEKS BTFO ONCE AGAIN!!!!11111 XXXDDDD
literally rent free

>>17927506
because the jeez in my balls or on my pants is just jeez but once it enters in a vagina it's a sacred baby

>>17927493
It's an honest question I'm trying to understand this better
>>17927499
Who is the subject? Antinatalists aren't specifically advocating for suicide from what I understand. Even that is part of what I'm imagining as a coping mechanism.
If you assign a negative value to birth/life which is what Antinatalism is from what I understand, a core cause of that could be the fact that death would then be a positive gain. There's obviously a natural fear of death in people so maybe it's a way to deal with it.
Ideally you'd never exist so you'd never even have to ponder about nonexistence.

>>17927533
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23261774/
Pretty neat, nice read.

Still don't like depressed pieces of shit though and I wish they would go away.

>>17927540
>christcuck gets butthurt for being called out
rekt

You are mistaking blood relation for the automatic reception and transmission of a culture (this is what you refer to as civilization). Having made the choice to remain childless (or made the choice to let your childlessness become contingent on fate, either way) doesn't necessarily mean an abandonment of one's responsibilities. You are still resonating with with the cosmos, responding to it. The argument 'against' anti-natalism isn't to stop the anti-, it's to point out that such a position demands exponentially greater responsibility. Just as the fellow in the crow's nest or the captain at the helm have a privileged position because of a superior vantage point, so to does the one who traditionally removes themselves from society, even if only by a few degrees, has a distinct, but hardly less, integral role in the society, like it or not. As a consequence, only a very small portion of the population can really afford to live up to the expectations society places on: Shamans, Priests, Bards/Poets, Explorers, so many flowering, expendable forms of humanity that only fulfill themselves in rebellion against, or creative conscious of, the society they're 'shaking off'. Ultimately though, anti-natalism as an honest to goodness 'political position' rather than just a personal choice is a desperate bid for control by people who shouldn't have it. They need spirituality and so they're castrating themselves, a traditional short-cut. They need to sit down and breathe; this cosmos doesn't need you to fix it or to 'stop hurting it'. At the same time, you can't hurt it by trying to fix it or by holding yourself back, but you can cage and torment yourself like some obsessive mom lashing her child through her mental gymnastics training. Forgive yourself, let down the whip, and dance. Let it be what it will be, do your best and you will see, fight or flee, bird or be, slave or free, grass or tree and lock or key... all exist and resonate in thee. Hold on.

>>17927584
This is a illness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5akv36ecnQ

>>17927587
This was really nice, thanks anon

>>17927587
>we antinatalists are superior beings
C O P E

Probably some vision of a different and better kind of future, but the modern world doesn’t provide that

>>17927190
>As long as antinatalists don't enforce their beliefs on others
My main issue with them is as far as I can see, they do proselytize their views, first in philosophy and eventually from there into public policy. I have a very hard time not seeing them as a suicide cult in the making, even if they are not very organized.

>>17926551
Antinatalism is one of the most unnatural ways of thinking that goes against every instinct we have or logical thought, yet it still can have its purpose if used in the right ways. What I hate about most antinatalists is that this way of thinking is not something that they've reached with good examples and logic, it's something forced upon by trivial inconveniences caused by kids(crying in public, acting bratty, destroying stuff around the house) or the amount of money it takes to raise one. They glance at the downsides and think it must be hell to live with them but they can't control their unconscious urge to have them and end up getting pets that they start treating like children(dressing them up, buying expensive toys and food, etc.) so they end up in the same position but without a child, a person of their own blood and beliefs. They will never experience raising and molding a person in the right way, someone who might achieve something great or who is skilled or smart, therefore satiating the psychological urges to have and maintain a child, maintaining their marriage and having someone to rely upon at old age.

Of course not every child can or will achieve something great or be smart and that is perfectly ok. Another thing that may fan the flames to antinatalism is sexual desires, being able to have sex whenever or how many with times with anyone they want without fear of pregnancy(vasectomy, birthcontrol) just leads to sexual degeneracy or STD's.

The only good application for antinatalism is to threaten governments.

>>17928040
>Antinatalism is one of the most unnatural ways
Retard, human consciousness is also "unnatural" and thus every "creation" of human beings beyond basic survival is "unnatural".

>>17926551
life is pointless then

>>17926599
the problem is when it becomes a fashion, trend and then societal pressure. child free can be more exploited in terms of wage slaving, thus raising expectations and competition and causing less and less kids for others to stay competitive.
Europe native population is dying out for the reason.

>>17927818
Using cope is a cope, anon. I'll be here when you wanna deal with the reality.

>>17928147
You absolute lobotomite, there are philosophies that entertain and validate the natural ways a human mind thinks(instinct and subconscious) and there are some that go completely against them, forcing man to be what he hasn't evolved to. I don't care what your definition of "natural" is or how you use it.

Animals can build or use tools to some extent too, is that also unnatural?

>>17928215
>there are some that go completely against them, forcing man to be what he hasn't evolved to.
Stop acting like you know the end goal of evolution. Whatever a man do, is the direct result of evolution.

>Animals can build or use tools to some extent too, is that also unnatural?
No retard, I don't care what is natural or unnatural I am only using your logic. For me everything is "natural" because everything emerged from evolution.

>>17928256
Damn, you backpedalled real fast, careful not to break your legs.

>For me everything is "natural" because everything emerged from evolution.
Human consciousness did too.

>Stop acting like you know the end goal of evolution. Whatever a man do, is the direct result of evolution.
Wrong, one ideology isn't evolution and won't change the way humans evolved until now especially when it provides fewer chances for it to.

Go back to your cave, natural man.

>>17928147
>>17928256
What the fuck
Are these posts even made by the same person?

>>17928306
>Human consciousness did too.
Oh you massive faggot. I was applying YOUR logic. I don't care about "natural" or "unnatural".

>Wrong, one ideology isn't evolution
So pessimism exists outside of evolution? Holy fucking based. Pessimists are transcendental chads who mog'd the petty bullshit of billions of years.

>>17928350
>I was applying YOUR logic.
No, you just applied what you thought was a smart and witty comment.

>So pessimism exists outside of evolution?
What? Your ego must be hurting so much that you're starting to talk nonsense.

>>17928419
Okay faggit

>>17926551
the argument for natalism is that life has the potential to be beautiful and meaningful. the argument for anti-natalism is that the vast majority of life isn't and has no potential to be.

>>17927062
>Every antinatalist fears death and can't cope with having to die
Holy shit I think you might be retarded

>>17927433
>>17927448
>existence is ugly and full of suffering and I don't want to have kids because life would suck for them too
>Im not depressed though why do you ask?
>Even if I was depressed, depression is actually a good thing
hahahahahahahahaha

>>17926639
Life, Earth, the west, even California, is amazing. You are just depressed. As this is 4chan(nel) and around here we know the solution to that is working out. >>>/fit/

It's sad to see people regurgitating the same old arguments in every /lit/ anti-natalist thread. I'm sympathetic to anti-natalism primarily due to Schopenhauer's argument that suffering is a positive force of the world, and that its finite pleasures are negative insofar as they briefly relieve us sentient beings from the default state of lack. However, as a Christian I think it should be specified that suffering, as a positive force, is exclusively inherent to the material world where we are detached from God. For you fedoras out there, this is an Irenaean theodical account of evil as opposed to the common Augustinian one which depicts humans as good, and evil as the absense of goodness (instead, God created a world with suffering, as the best of all possible worlds, because it allows for the greatest amount of human growth). To elaborate on this, our human nature is sinful as the corrupted Will gravites towards the fufillment of desires that are placed above the status of God, and it is precisely because those things (like the love of a companion, love of a tv series, love of food) are finite that they cause suffering. Schopenhauer said "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills." Not everyone has been bestowed the grace needed to live a modest life. It is inevitable that all humans suffer and fall into sin. The rampant nihilism of our times that sees the deeply meaningful as meaningless is incredibly dangerous as we will reap what we sow in the afterlife. It is through grace that one's Will is directed to God. It is otherwise difficult and improbable to expect most to live properly. Giving birth to a human being is indeed a frightening prospect. It is a roll of the dice that they will turn out genetically lucky, even more so that they deny the temptations of Will to avoid condemnation upon death. If you're set on having children, do adequately raise them with love and educate them philosophically.

>>17929750
Stop quoting Schopenhauer you christcuck. The Will is blind, dumb, irrational and has no goal.
Schopenhauer showed the evil nature of this world and the vast amount of suffering which plagues every living being. And there is no place for such evil deity(even if it exists) in his system.

>>17929836
Schopenhauer recognized life-denial as the only way forward, much like those religions that he so vehemently denied. The striving Will continuously engages with the world, and such engagement is at the root of suffering. So, turning one's efforts outside of it naturally follows. Do you honestly think a Schopenhaurian system is completely opposed to a theistic one?

>>17929836
t. fedora faggot
>>17929836
*Schopenhauerian

>>17929850
>. Do you honestly think a Schopenhaurian system is completely opposed to a theistic one?
How it isn't? He was ethically close to Hindus, Buddhists and Christians but that's it. If he believed in the Christian transcendental absolute then his whole ethical system would be totally useless.
If you want to praise the blind and dumb Will as a deity then sure go ahead.

>>17929907
I'm not claiming that by itself, his metaphysics was theistic. However, monistic/theistic interpretations of his system do work well and effectively add to it, just as Aristotle added to Platonism with his specific variations (like Aristotelian Hylomorphism).

>>17926551
there isn't much argument against it unless people enforce it as a way to shame a lower class, in that case, it's privilege
the economical route is valid, but can be turned around on criticizing a greater system

>>17929917
How does it work? The Will is a fucking sinister cunt.

>>17926599
Yeah because low IQ people never have children. Oh wait...
You are just coping, anon

>>17929929
I'd recommend looking into Bernardo Kastrup's reading of Schopenhauer. He and I share a similar ontology/metaphysical system. His understanding is also (in all likelihood) more complete than yours (he has two PhD's and has written a book on Schopenhauer).

>>17929929
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/10/introducing-decoding-schopenhauers.html
https://youtu.be/W_e17mfbX2s

>>17926637
>suffering so bad its good
Why is it always this "argument".

>>17926594
It's more about the inherent desire of the suicidal person. Cioran wrote a bit about this.

The suicidal person is trapped in a paradoxical situation, since what they really desire is to have never been born. And since this is impossible as you cannot un-experience things, suicide then becomes an aesthetically poor choice.

>>17926941
Why worry about the suicide of a civilization when you regularly use a website that is in no way compatible with what made that civilization compelling to begin with. How much of your life is recognizably part of that civilization that you picture in your head?

>>17926634
Finally a really quotable author

>>17929938
I don't care about secondary sources, friend. Schopenhauer's philosophy has no space for a deity. And if you're forcing a deity into it than have fun with worshiping an evil deity.

>>17926581
Wanna know a quick way of getting to a state that is practically identical to not having existed? Suicide.

Not religious nor am I a parent but antinatalism is really repellent for a lot of reasons to me not the least of which is that it radiates outwardly across the internet from Reddit.

But I can refute antinatalism just using simple freshmen year formal logic statement.

>Life is more joyful than miserable
>If life were more miserable than joyful an individual would rationally choose to commit suicide at their first chance
>Therefore the proliferation of life spreads joy rather than misery

But yeah, redditors and New Atheist plebs would be horrible parents so it’s better that they don’t procreate. They’d abuse and or neglect their kids because they’re infantilised immature adult-children themselves. Parenthood is one of the most noble, beautiful, admirable and whitepilling stations one can occupy in life so it makes sense that the worst people currently on the planet despise it.

>>17929995
>redditors and New Atheist plebs would be horrible parents
>a faggot said that on a mongolian basket weaving forum

>>17927203
Based post

>>17926551
Literally any teleology

>>17930053
What do I read to learn more about teleology?

>>17929995
>If life were more miserable than joyful an individual would rationally choose to commit suicide at their first chance
Midwit logic. Even if that was the case it would only be so if people were completely logical

>>17927203
You've provided an impressive list of defective subhumans.

>>17930098
If it’s so bad then off yourself. Anything else is LARP. Any word that comes out of your mouth that isn’t asking the guy behind the desk at a gun store for a gun is LARP. You know it is superior to be in a state of existence and than to not exist otherwise you wouldn’t be here.

>>17927203
Once again Plato proves superior to Aristotle.

1. Unpleasant people have bad opinions
2. Antinatalists are whiny and lack commitment to their own ideas
3. Thus antinatalism is bad

>>17930309
Now this is logic I can get behind

>>17926557
To do so would be to let natalists when, propagating suffering further. The correct move for the anti-natalist is to cling to life and bitch as loud as possible.

>>17927046
You have to decide if the joy you might bring others is worth more than the suffering you experience is continuing to live. Moreover, you have to decide if the damage your death would cause these people is worth less than that you'd free yourself from.

The only real argument against suicide for a miserable person is that they should suffer to make others happy, would is basically just being spooked into self-imposed slavery.

>>17926599
>>17926648
This sort of apathetic attitude is probably why antinatalism is so popular now. No sense of togetherness or community.

Anti-natalists are wrong, life is worth continuing, but they do have a level of insight: reproduction should not be a "right." It should be a privilege afforded to those who have the means and disposition to raise children who will not be a net negative for the project of humanity's continued existence and psychological development. This, in combination with broader eugenics projects, would not only vastly improve the collective human welfare, but better assure human society will not become that of the last man and that humanity will go on to be a project which uses technology to shape itself instead of a declining thing shaped and torn apart by its technological advancement - as is currently the case.

>>17926551
The future belongs to those who show up.

>>17926551
I'm childfree.
I find arguments for both natalism and antinatalism poor.
How can you argue one ought to have kids or not without bringing in dubious metaphysics like the Gnostics?
I'm child free because I dislike humanity as a whole. Whether people have kids or not doesn't matter to me anymore. It's not my problem if the kids suffer or not. It only becomes my problem if I get involved, which I won't.
I would have preferred being a happy bird, beaver, wolf, or some other animal.
I like all animals, but I admit, there are some I would prefer being over others (e.g., I would rather be a crow or raven over a hog even though I respect the hog). Crows and ravens are pretty smart.
Also, I am not a furry or whatever. I am still a human being and attracted to women. I would support executing all furries.
I just don't like humanity because I dislike it when people have fundamentally different values from me.
One thing I like with the modern age is the sense of growing alienation. Almost everyone I become friends with I get into arguments regarding some philosophical or ethical topic, and then our friendship ruptures. The problem with mankind is there is no sense of cohesion with systems of value.
There is nothing more cucked than being friends with someone who shares fundamentally different and irreconcilable values with you. Secular values are no values, an empty container that allows for conflicting contradictions to fester and devour itself.

>>17927203
>Stirner
>Nietzsche
>Weil
>Beauvoir
>Sartre
Absolute trash thinkers. The rest are okay. May have missed one or two dumbasses.

>>17930558
>How can you argue one ought to have kids or not without bringing in dubious metaphysics
This exactly.

>>17930636
You missed John Gray.

>>17930558
>Almost everyone I become friends with I get into arguments regarding some philosophical or ethical topic, and then our friendship ruptures.
>There is nothing more cucked than being friends with someone who shares fundamentally different and irreconcilable values with you
No wonder you have no friends. How the fuck did you get past middle school without learning how to cope with the fact that people are fundamentally different than you lmaoooooo

>>17929962
>The suicidal person is trapped in a paradoxical situation, since what they really desire is to have never been born. And since this is impossible as you cannot un-experience things, suicide then becomes an aesthetically poor choice.

This is bullshit. I'm suicidal because I've already experienced the best and it will never be as good, I know this ABSOLUTELY TRUE. Regardless, I'm very happy to have experienced the past 27 years. I guess I also somehow want my time on this earth to remain untainted by the (inevitably) shit future, in which I will knowingly (inevitably) languish into all manner of sin and debauchery.

>>17930747
I do cope with it, but I don't accept it especially in the way it manifests with humanity, hence why I won't have kids. I don't have to make normative claims to feel better about myself either. It's a win-win situation for everyone.

>>17926599

>>17929981

>>17926551

Don’t breed if you can’t raise an above average human being.

>>17930558
>I'm childfree.
>I find arguments for both natalism and antinatalism poor.
Same.

Nothing is convincing or coherent, just your own knowledge of what you want.
Same way you can make up pseud shit about how chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream and that people ought to and must and it's in their nature to eat one or the other or some shit.

People who don't have children because they want to make a good impact on environment are as incomprehensible to me as people who think it's your responsibility to keep the chain going.
It's just ice creams. I'll eat the one I like the most and any discussion beyond that is pointless.

>>17927062
This is literally the dumbest post I've ever read on this board, holy fuck you're stupid

Well I'm antinatalist and the only "argument" that I can't refute is when people say something to the effect of "I dont care if my children suffer". I have no response.

Anyway I stopped preaching nor frankly caring about the suffering of other people's (potentjal) children long ago. Rationally I know it's wrong to procreate, and I got a vasectomy so I could never do it, but at a certain point I just stopped giving a fuck. The world isn't my responsibility to fix. Other people's suffering has nothing to with me.

>>17926599
>Idiocracy is a 2006 American science fiction comedy film directed by Mike Judge and co-written by Judge and Etan Cohen. Starring Luke Wilson, Maya Rudolph, and Dax Shepard, it follows an American soldier who takes part in a classified hibernation experiment, only to be accidentally frozen for too long and awaken 500 years later in a dystopian[2] world where dysgenics and commercialism have run rampant, mankind has embraced anti-intellectualism, and society is devoid of such traits as intellectual curiosity, social responsibility, justice, and human rights. The film was not screened for critics, and the distributor, 20th Century Fox, was accused of abandoning it. Despite its lack of a major theatrical release, which resulted in a mere $495,000 gross at the box office, the film received positive reviews from critics and has become a cult film.[3]

>>17931768
do they really

>>17926551
Hilarious after eons of struggle humanity is now in a easier time than ever before and these beta male simps complain about the endless struggle and suffering, lol. People in Africa wake up in poop huts covered in flys and complain less than these redditors.

>>17930558
Realize most people have not thought through their beliefs (including you and I) and that most disagreements are misunderstandings of some sort. Ascend or accept your sheephood friend

>>17926869
that's not the logical conclusion though lol

>>17931855
You have it backwards. This is the first era where we can start complaining about trivial things because our lives are simplified.

Here's a poor summary of one argument I've seen for antinatalism.

Say you have a revolver with 6 chambers. 5 bullets have happy happy bullets and 1 bullet is a sad sad bullet. You are standing over someone who is sleeping and, without their consent, you shoot them. If a happy happy bullet hits them the person sleeping will lead a generally happy life. If the sad sad bullet lands the person sleeping will lead a generally sad life. For some people, this is not a chance they're willing to take. It's a gamble one is taking on another's life without their consent to do so.

>>17931966
This argument isn't helpful because it's still reasoning in terms of the sleeping person actually existing. The strength of the antinatalist argument is that you can't harm a hypothetical being that will never become real.

I hate my mother and father for giving birth to me. I didn't ask for this lmao.

>>17927293
>Diffirences in cognitive faculties lead animals to feel less pain and to not being capable of perceiving emotional pain.
What the fuck are you talking about
I mean you have a point somewhere in there but that latter part makes no fucking sense

>>17932224
kys then

>>17931966
- "sad" or "happy" bullets implies a determinism to life from the beginning, which is a massive whopper you'd need to prove in the first place
- consent is meaningless when applied to nonexistent beings.

>>17927203
>intelligence is heritable
>but it's okay and rational for smart people to breed
>nothing wrong with stupid people outnumbering the smart ones

>>17932915
*smart people not to breed

>>17927203
Stirner tried to have kids and was married, you fucking retard. If his wife and child hadn’t died in childbirth, it’s likely he would have had several kids.

>>17926929

antinatalism ≠ pro-suicide-ism

>>17926551
Preggo bellies are hot.

>>17931933
Incomplete take.
This is the first era where we can start complaining about trivial things because the things that we spent 80% of the time doing are not necessary anymore. We're a washing machine with no laundry.

>>17926551
>life good
>kids are a treasure

spawning more things like you gives your particular set of skills more reign over the world
thus they all propagate and begin to create a world that suits you more
as its always been

>>17934010
I have literally only ever heard IRL the phrase "kids are a treasure" and its variations when the parents discussed some frustrating shit they constantly have to put up with. Usually in form of the addendum of "...but kids are a treasure" to the former. Never in conjunction with something actually pleasant, and I have heard the phrase a lot.

I'm a master of succumbing to copium and I recognize it when I see it.

>>17926551
Just do it

>>17933822
We got brought to the easiest time of humanity and anti-Natalists want to give up b/c life is so hard :(. If they weren’t low t they would realize humanity as a whole is improving, and barring some extinction event, will continue to improve quality of life for everyone. Antinatalism now would rob billions and billions of people the best life humans can offer.

Any anti natalists out there, I hate you, I hate your loser attitude. Talk about privilege! I’d love to break your jaw. Please kys to affirm your dogshit philosophy.

>>17933180
Why not? Most of the arguments center around nonexistence being preferable to existence. Suicide (and murder?) are also ways to make that happen.

>>17934532
Because he’s coping. Classic cognitive dissonance

>>17932140
It's just an analogous hypothetical dude. Choosing to "well akshually" this detail is deliberately missing the point.

The point is that this anti-natalist doesn't believe the probability for this person (the baby) to be happy is high enough to shoot that bullet (have the baby) in the first place and so they don't.

>>17934892
Then don’t argue in hypotheticals that don’t make sense/ aren’t analogous bitch

>>17926551
No senpai means negroes will be yr caregivers for the last years of yr life. They have been taught to hate you and regard anything done to hurt you as justified...

>>17934452
>they would realize humanity as a whole is improving
[citation needed]

being attractive is dysgenic
t. someone who grew up attractive

>>17926815
exactly, lol.

>>17927301
the board is called Literature, you dumb faggot.

>>17928645
this guy destroyed your faggot ass lmao

>>17935075
What doesn't make sense?