/lit/ - Literature

>>17869266
regrettably yes

I feel like every time i check the catalog there's a new low-effort thread about marx basically saying "marx is a poophead", OP has probably made hundreds of those in his lifetime

>>17869266
>It’s another Marx thread where OP hasn’t even read a single page of Marx
It’s all so tiresome.

>>17869297
The more I read Marx the more I despised him

Stirner and Marx, two snakeoil salesmen.

>never any arguments
>never any quotes and hermeneutics
>never any reasons
every time

>>17869266
In my humble opinion, the importance of Marx is greatly exaggerated by both his proponents and detractors.

>>17869297
honest question, can you cite the specific part of marxs writings where he describes in detail how to install communism while avoiding the fate of virtually every single communist revolution we have seen where it turns into centralized state capitalist tyranny?

>>17869399
He doesn’t. Utopianism is retarded.

>>17869266
You’re an idiot OP.

>>17869413
why?

>>17869266
Every philosophy/theorem/intellectual has flaws, Marx is an intellectual giant but people play 150 IQ Twister around his fatally flawed normative theories instead of building and cross pollinating with his useful and relevant positive theories.

>>17869451
>Marx is an intellectual giant
why? as far as I can tell his criticisms of how working class people are treated are just about the only actual contribution he has made and its not exactly a unique take

>>17869266
No.

Go read a book, you disgusting American midwit.

>>17869266
Isn't he just an economist? Economists aren't philosophers

>>17869471
He's not an economist.

>>17869475
At that time you were an economist when you thought about economics.

>>17869422
In the history of men trying to understand how this system we’ve constructed works, it makes about as much sense for OP to have posted Adam Smith of Hayek. Economics is a social science, and therefore rather subjective. So many aspects aren’t even properly understood, and are often skewed for personal reasons.
But all this thread is predicated on is cold war fears. Typical boomer age propaganda regurgitated out of sheer ignorance.

The compulsion right-wing people have for making threads and statements like this is a huge sign of their emotional and intellectual immaturity.

Notice that at no point in /lit/'s history we'd had have five threads every day wih a picture of a prominent conservative thinker + some petty insult. It's something leftists would see no point in doing because we're not mentally 8 years old.

>>17869413
It's nice to see you being more vocal on here.

>>17869497
Preach. Capital is a Capitalist construct used to justify the bargaining of the workers' rights.

>>17869501
There are actually a lot of threads like that, especially about Evola for some reason, who as far as I can tell most right wing people don't even care or know about

>>17869497
dude how is economy even real like just manifest capital lol

>>17869501
mate the only reason this board got this bad is because you cant have a normal discussion regarding anything resembling "right wing" without people like butterfly flooding in with quips and meaningless platitudes. people of course who have not the slightest clue what they are talking about regarding the topic (sound familiar?)

>>17869373
anon has never read a single book in his life

>>17869532
How is money still a thing? We don’t need it.

>>17869568
what exactly are you suggesting? bartering? do you actually think a country with no economy beyond bartering can enforce its sovereignty among nations that have modern economies?

>>17869568
I want to make paper machete with money, not have to use it to participate in misery.

>>17869588
There won't be a need to barter if there's no expectation of acquiring Capital by force.

>>17869594
so how do you get things you dont have but need?

>>17869588
No. I think a non accumulative currency can act as nice training wheels for a free economy. “Sovereignty among nations” is also something we can do without. Actually it’s what we need to do in order to survive. State-capitalism is literally killing us.

>>17869590
HAH

>>17869600
>>17869600
Grow food.
Build a house.
Read books.
Return to Monke.

>>17869471
He was anti economics

>>17869600
Through Direct Democracy

>>17869613
All your shilling has convinced me to read this

>>17869613
I really would like for you to offer your thoughts on parametric determinism.

Marx is actually great, people only hate him because their minds are poisoned by decades old anti-soviet propaganda.

>>17869617
Hope you like it.
It’s very direct and simple

>>17869605
can you explain how exactly this this is a viable undertaking that can be implemented in real life and not just a theoretical fantasy that sounds nice and functional when you consider it in the context of a vacuum?

>>17869609
what if you dont have land to grow food or materials to build a house?

*refutes Marx forever*

>>17869631
I love you.

>>17869637
No he didn’t only midwits think so

>>17869266
that is true, but aren't you something of a charlatan yourself?

>>17869645
what did he get wrong?

>>17869632
What? Grass grows out of the ground.

>>17869657
that does not in any way address my questions

>>17869649
I don't agree with him.

>>17869649
Completely misunderstood Marx and thought he was an economist

>>17869667
Grass to grow a tree to make wood to build a house to make a campfire to cook fish to cook leather to cook meat etc..

>>17869670
>Creates an economic theory of history and society
>not an economist
OK sweetie, how about we let the big boys continue this discussion.

>>17869621
Sounds like compatibalism. I was interested in reading this for a while, but haven’t even gotten around to DLing it. I have a lot of backlog.
What do you think of it?

>>17869632
Programming an app to pay us coupons for the work we do and getting it stamped out upon payment? It’s fantasy now because no one is taking it. Almost like bitcoin. Some people are taking it

>>17869670
He never misunderstood anything about Capitalism. He exposed an ugly flaw in our collective unconscious and our insistence on generating Capital.

>>17869672
grass doesn't give you any of those things and even if it does you still need land to grow it...

>>17869613
Democracy is idiotic and that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Luckily, it won't survive the next 100 years.

>>17869676
I will check that out. I'll be very happy to let you know when I finish it!

>>17869676
hmmm I believe there is a word for innocuous items that represent value that can be distributed in exchange for labour....what is it called again?

>>17869699
Capital. But why do you need it at any point in that material exchange?

>>17869689
Tbh I’m fine with local democracy(assuming a relatively homogeneous population)it’s just nationwide democracy that’s shit.

>>17869699
Money. An accumulative currency. Take out this property of accumulation and you take away it’s power to corrupt. The labor voucher has been an idea for a long time, but not till computers has it been realizable.

>>17869718
Small-scale democracy was an invention of the Nordic Aryans (centered around gatherings called Things), but it was never pure or allowed to override the veto of the jarl or king. Also, the Nordics acknowledged that it only works when society is homogenous and all oriented in the same direction. It can't work if the society is divided (ie, between rival clans or groups with different ideological or ethnic interests).

>>17869726
And there's no such thing as ethical Capitalism. If even given enough time, Capitalism will become tyrannical

>>17869709
the word you are looking for is currency, and well for starters, it is insanely useful for society on an individual and collective level for a multitude of reasons. for starters, it can be broken down into smaller more manageable units of value which makes the exchange of goods significantly easier and more efficient for all involved
>>17869726
>Take out this property of accumulation
by doing what exactly?

>>17869754
It's all the same. Capitalism is just pre-planned Marxist dialectic thought but with Capital slapped on it. It's pointless.

>>17869676
>getting it stamped out upon payment?
Do you mean something like the money gets destroyed as soon as it's spent?

GIBS ME DAT FOR FREE

>>17869788
why would anyone exchange goods for a currency that effectively has no value because it is destroyed the moment it is used? this is literally the "gibs me dat for free" meme with extra steps

>>17869266
>salesman
Projecting much porky? Under a communist society snake oil would be freely distributed among the masses. Only a capitalist pig would seek to turn philosophy into a commodity. Oink oink!

>>17869792
GIB ME LIBERTE, ÉGALITÉ, FRATERNITÉ

>>17869727
Yep. I have no clue why anarchists like butters think you can have open borders and socialism + democracy which are two concepts that rely on high social trust & a homogeneous population to work.

>>17869754
Using labor vouchers instead. What do you mean exactly?

>>17869788
Yes.
>>17869804
It has a limited value. The person stamping it for your coffee or shoes or whatever, is earning his or her own vouchers

>>17869568
You need liquid assets, anon. Bartering is inefficient and there isn't a better way to keep the market democratic.

>>17869829
I trust the white supremacists will huddle together and try to establish a fascist state instead of a democratic one that can cooperate with their neighbors. But they will be outnumbered and drawn and quartered if need be.

>>17869399
>he describes in detail how to install communism while avoiding the fate of virtually every single communist revolution we have seen where it turns into centralized state capitalist tyranny
Do you mean install the "dictatorship of the proletariat"? He only briefly mentions that and does not discuss the installation of communism, which is different. If you read lenin he pretty accurately describes creating the ussr at that time, for better or worse. Marx simply believed in the revolutionary spirit in history that would eventually lead to something else, but most of his writings have nothing to do with this argument that you people love to cry about over and over. If you actually read some of his basic writings, however, you might start to think differently about your boss and workplace
>muh 1000 billion dead
yea obviously he couldnt predict the future retard

>>17869829
its bizzare, butters literally admitted to me that her entire belief system hinges on virtually every human being cooperating perfectly, and when you ask her how exactly she plans on making these millions of billions of variables to fall into place perfectly in real life she is silent, then the next day she is back making the exact same claims as if nothing happened. it reminds me of what hitler wrote about jews in mein kampf lmao, something like "in the event that you corner them and prove them wrong in front of an audience, the next day they would act like they dont know what you are talking about as if nothing happened and continue to make the same claims"

>>17869861
I’m not a white supremacist. I’m just asking how democracy and socialism will work if the population is so divided and don’t trust each other.

>>17869839
>Bartering
Not bartering! Barter was practiced by people who used money for generations and it was all taken away. The economies of old were shared economies.

>>17869870
it's what happens when a person's development ends in high school. elliot rodger was the same way.

>>17869285
They're still coping. Still relevant.

>>17869413
>>17869497
>>17869568
>>17869605
>>17869613
>>17869631
>>17869676
>>17869726
>>17869813
>>17869861

A retard suggesting books he’s never read about a topic he knows nothing about.

>>17869834
Why do we need labor vouchers? Cryptos are good enough.

>>17869403
Ironically marx and engels spent thousands of pages critiquing utopianism in favor of science so all the marxists who have taken on a utopian character should be ashamed

>>17869829
>>17869870
Just filter it. Butters spends 95% of "her" day in Hasan Piker's twitch chat so she's even dumber than the average braindead socialist.

>>17869834
what is a labour voucher? how is it distributed?
>It has a limited value
what limits its value though? what gives it value?
>The person stamping it for your coffee or shoes or whatever, is earning his or her own vouchers
are you saying you get one voucher for every voucher you stamp? doesn't that defeat the purpose?

>>17869813
>*let's you're minorities devour civilization*

>>17869898
You dumb.

>>17869883
Your point? The economies of old were royal shit.

>>17869861
ahahahahah look everybody, look at the ego on this one. he thinks he will be in charge of the revolution.

>>17869501
That's because there aren't any conservative thinkers

>>17869870
tripfags are fags and anarchism is for losers but don't out yourself as a mein kampf reader lol that's probably the only thing more cringe than all this shit

>>17869870
Haha lies.
I can’t dictate what anyone will do. But given this sweet relief, the masses will go after it. The details to work out will be theirs.

>>17869876
Didn’t mean to imply. Why is there distrust? Restore economic stability and with closer knit communities, eliminating poverty and the security state, and a host of other pernicious social ills... I believe we’d grow more trust with each other. At least with the surrounding neighborhoods.
It’s a challenge, certainly. I describe a time when most everything is in place and working. How to get there, if at all possible, is a chore.
But we are many.

>>17869923
This.

>>17869923
I really dont care if you think im cringe m8, im here to discuss objective truths not get people fawning over how cool anonymous post #1786999 is

>>17869935
Sometimes I believe this trip is just an elaborate troll, I refuse to believe that anyone can willfully be this dense.

>>17869870
Yeah I remember what quote you’re talking about. I think I’ve seen it ascribed to E Michael Jones too. She just spams the same half dozen books over snd posts vague statements.
Tbf she is probably 50 years old so I understand if her brain isn’t working like it used to.

>>17869399
>install communism
There's your problem. Marx never advocated for jumping the gun unlike all the heterodox opportunists who incited insurrections in his name. Capitallism is supposed to naturally give way to communist without any intervention or interference; there was not even a way mapped out by which it could be "accelerated" artificially. Marxist revolutionaries are not orthodox Marxists, because they are supposed to wait, and settle on organizing and preparing for class warfare, whereas instead they try to force revolutions---which is why they fail, according to dialectical materialism.

The problem is that Marx's theory was wrong anyway because Capitalism ended up evolving into something tolerable enough that the working classes could buy into, which means that that natural evolution into communism would never happen without commies intentionally agitating for it.

>>17869867
>yea obviously he couldnt predict the future retard
Dialectical Materialism is predicated precisely upon the assumption/notion that he could predict the future though. And he ended up not being able to, which therefore undermines the philosophy's credibility.

>>17869890
Good enough to help us end banking, I hope. But it’s still accumulative and I don’t trust it.

>>17869896
Who? Not an argument.

>>17869897
Read the Cockshott book.

>>17869898
>Green supremacist
Cringy bitch

>>17869903
Before money, life was free. Ever read Ovid?

>>17869870
>>17869588
After filtering the tripfag my /lit/ experience improved tremendously, I highly recommend it. Maybe i'll filter that one schizo tripfag that types in all caps next.

>>17869923
cringe xD

>>17869965
>faggot butterfly denies objective reality

>>17869935
not lies, its literally the point where you are unable to come up with a retort and leave the thread, but hey if im wrong feel free to prove it by finally explaining this part of your master plan, just try to remember that "it just works lol" is not an answer!

>>17869970
>Randroid
*click*

>>17869973
I just answered it again. What’s your medication dose?

>>17869965
what exactly am i going to gain from cockshot if you read it and are incapable of answering at least one or two of these basic questions here >>17869897 ???? if you can answer these basic questions i might actually be curious to read further, right now it really seems like a waste of time

Check

>>17869988
you didn't answer it, "it just works" is not an answer regarding how it will work

>>17869965
>Before money, life was free
You forget the natural chains that bound us were much tighter. You were fucked if you nicked yourself in the garden and got tetanus. Agriculture was much less proficient and it was much harder to keep everyone fed in times of crisis. As we tore apart the chains of nature, we bound ourselves with the chains of society. If we return to our old ways, we won't be able to support our current population sizes and the resulting brutality and desperation would result in a radioactive wasteland.

>>17869935
>Restore economic stability and with closer knit communities, eliminating poverty and the security state, and a host of other pernicious social ills... I believe we’d grow more trust with each other.
Why are women even permitted to learn how to read

>>17869839
>face-posting tripfag
>"anon"

>>17870020
I find it better to not even acknowledge their attention whoring.

>>17869964
>Dialectical Materialism
He never used this term you are thinking of historical materialism which, yes, tried and failed to predict the future from his time; I said he couldn't so we agree
>And he ended up not being able to, which therefore undermines the philosophy's credibility.
Show me a philosophy from the 1850s which made a magic prediction that came true. At least marx was right that we're all still alienated as shit. Read hegel (philosophy always comes to the scene too late)

>>17870030
You shouldn’t acknowledge them at all.

>>17869935
>Restore economic stability and with closer knit communities, eliminating poverty and the security state, and a host of other pernicious social ills... I believe we’d grow more trust with each other.

This reads like a fucking Hallmark card. Absolutely pathetic.

>>17869988
Save some for me!!

>>17869965
>Before money, life was free
currency literally made people more free because it made the exchange of goods significantly easier, especially for average people with little means.. that was literally the point. it was also especially good for people with little capital who were selling their labor since currency comes with a large degree of freedom regarding how its physically held and maintained as well as what you can do with it, and as i said, how easy it is to do stuff with it...

>>17870043
Cope;
Seethe;
Dilate.

>>17870043
This is how you realize that he doesn’t even read what he posts.

americans are dumb and the world would be better off without them

>>17869997
He’s the professor that came up with it all. I’m not an economist and will not be able to answer most your questions with any great authority, but fine, I’ll try.
A voucher can be either printed out or left on a smart phone. The app just counts your hours worked. What the price of everything is is calculated by the main program. What gives any money the power to be of any value? The real value should be seen in what each of us does for one another.
From what I remember from the book, the amount of voucher paid for the product is based on how long the product took to make.

>>17870008
You’re a dense troll

>>17870020
Doesn’t bother me. “Butterfly” is an anonymous invention. This thing in the name field wasn’t supposed to mean anything

>>17870084
I honestly hop america implodes just so europe is thrown back into the real world and can no longer coast off of americas dime and western civilization as a whole can get the swift kick in the ass it desperately needs right now

>>17870034
>Show me a philosophy from the 1850s which made a magic prediction that came true.
The thing is there wasn't much philosophizing going on in the 1850s though.
>At least marx was right that we're all still alienated as shit.
Are you saying everyone is a loser like you? You realize there are zoomers with 6 figure salaries and networths out there who got rich off computing and finance right?

>>17870099
>doesn't know the difference between a name and a trip

>>17870099
im not a dense troll, you literally answered the question of " how will you get all these millions of people to act precisely as you need them to" and you said " they just will"

>>17870051
>currency literally made people more free because putting the citizens and slaves indebted to the sovereign was super cool

>>17870084
It’s not a race or geographic thing, anon. It’s systemic

>>17870126
No matter how many times you type that out, it’s plainly not the truth.

>>17870034
>Show me a philosophy from the 1850s which made a magic prediction that came true
not quite what you are looking for but people like stirner and dostoyevsky were able to predict with relatively extreme accuracy how marxs ideas would play out irl so why couldn't he?

>>17870127
...debt existed before currency

>>17870147
the comment is literally there for everyone to see, once again, if i am lying, explain it without saying " people will just do it lol"

>>17869870
>making these millions of billions of variables to fall into place perfectly in real life
This is the fatal flaw of socialism. They can theory craft all they want. Write hundreds of intelligent journals and, articles, and books every year, but when it comes down to actually running society they just don't know what they're doing. Because their designs require radically altering society, and because they don't know what they're doing they'll kill us all.

>>17870160
ironically that's what that book argues but she doesn't read which is probably why she's stuck in a dead end job and seethes every night

>>17870108
I hope the same

>>17870111
>The thing is there wasn't much philosophizing going on in the 1850s though.
You don't read do you
>Are you saying everyone is a loser like you?
No I'm saying workers are still alienated from their product albeit in much different ways. Critique of political economy still stands even with all this abstract finance shit. By the way, I bet my job is better than yours but I'm not going to assume anything like you just did so I'll just say im more than happy with my job
>>17870149
Dosto yes, stirner was just being a baby that denounced everything. Marx had too much faith in the proletariat as a force of history but that doesn't mean there weren't dozens of other worthwhile things he wrote, like his critique of stirner for example

>>17870164
>>17869935
>I [CANNOT] dictate what anyone will do. But given this sweet relief, the masses will go after it. The details to work out will be theirs.
You need a defeatist caveat? If they don’t like to take charge of their own lives, if they don’t like clean food, clean water, if they miss the poverty and the crime, and all the lawyers and judges and police, and wish for more prisons and lying politicians, the people will co e back to the old elites and beg them to bring back the old order.
Hey there’s some self proclaimed monarchists on / lit/ so anything could happen, right?

>>17870160
>>17870169
You don’t get what Im saying. Just leave.

>>17870160
Wat

>>17870202
>stirner was just being a baby that denounced everything

>>17870167
yea, leftist ideologies are like a wonderful machine dreamed up that doesn't consider the laws of physics, and the moment you try to actually implement the design is obviously does not work. i cringe whenever i see "thats not real communism" or " thats not a real revolution" or whatever. yes, that is real leftism, it is not "fake leftism" just because it did not have the outcome you expected based on its functionality within a vacuum

>>17870220
obviously i dont, you said currency is responsible for debt slavery but debt predates currency. are you trying to say the way debt slavery orchestrated through usury is bad? you can have currency without usury

>>17870202
>You don't read do you
Name three landmark philosophical texts released in the 1850s. If you can, then apparently not.

>>17870243
Share something from the book

>>17870211
>bro people are robots and will just react to everything the same way
you are literally retarded. that is not how people work. yes, there there are people who are monarchists, there are people who are fascists, there are people or are liberals. THAT is how people work, there are extreme quantities of people who want nothing to do with your retarded hippie commune no matter how you sell it, the overwhelmingly vast majority of them to be precise

also good lord, how in gods name can you exist in a democracy with liberal cultural attitudes for years, possibly decades, and still believe everyone will just fall in line with whats best for them? are you completely disconnected from reality? holy shit

>>17870273
>people are robots and will just react to everything the same way
The exact opposite of what I say. Done.
Enough trolling.

>>17869285
>>17869297
>Y-y-YOU JUST DIDNT READ HIM!!
Dont know if OP did
But I have
He was infact "the snake oil salesman" of philosophy
Litterally made arguments that by his own admission were false.

>>17870282
I'm sorry, what?
>But given this sweet relief, the masses will go after it
"the masses will react to the stimuli of anarchism the same way, precisely as i say they will"

>>17869501
>Notice that at no point in /lit/'s history we'd had have five threads every day wih a picture of a prominent conservative thinker + some petty insult.
Who the fuck you think this nigga be anon??
<<<

Why should we care about emancipating people from suffering

>>17869501
>Blue team good, red team bad!

twitterbrain zoomer

>>17870300
>Litterally made arguments that by his own admission were false.
elaborate, and point them

>>17870306
I cant wait for butters to be unable to respond to this post but come back peddling the same refuted ideas tomorrow or the day after just like this post >>17869870 said

can we just take a moment to appreciate how nutty it is how politics, especially utopian leftist politics, has supplanted religion with some people as a sort of unshakable faith-based belief that drives them

>>17869523
Evola threads are started by other traditionalists afaic

>>17870361
Just off the top of my head??
The argument that people are individual pleasure seeking egos unmoored from all "essoteric" purpose in their base form and as such are logically called towards class consiousnes while also claiming Capitalism is
>"Undermining the family structure"
And this is somehow a negative against it (when by his own argument the family structure would be a product of the hierachy along with all other socio-moral structures of pre-socialist society)
There are more but i dont feel like debating so i'll just leave it with the one their should be the least amount of "Marxists" (who didnt read Marx) claiming he "never said"

>>17870395
jesus christ, i knew there was something retarded coming

and nice image faggot

>>17870018
Women are children. Children shouldnt think about politics and all the big boy topics.

>>17870406
whats wrong with what he said? whats wrong with the image? t. dont know much about marx

>>17870411
Manchild.

>>17870406
>>>0arguments.jpeg
And you wonder why no one takes the Marxist Left seriously lol
Believe what you want to believe dude,
But Don't think you are going to convince people who have read Marx he said something other then he did by calling it "retarded"
The ONLY people you will convince are people similarly illiterate such as yourself WHO HAVEN'T read the mother fucker
And you will get laughed and shit on for it as it is funny.

>>17870411
“Big boys” have been a disaster for the human race

>>17870372
I cant wait for her to continue randomly shitting up religion related threads with unprompted quips about how religion is retarded like an edgy kid who discovered r/atheism, while hypocritically practicing a religion of her own

>>17870449
Nietzsche's Ubermensch confirms her theory.

>>17870469
how so?

>>17870479

>>17870536
see
>>17870372
>>17870306

Communism will win.

Imagine being a bootlicker, I just dont get it..

>>17870599
National socialism will win. Communism is utopian internationalist propaganda, an excuse for capitalism with a smiley face to import scab labor to dilute worker solidarity until every country is an interchangeable capitalist slum.

>>17870610
Poor insect.

>>17869266
That would be Nietzsche with his self help books

>>17870623
Okay Jeff.

How about another 50 years of being the trendiest thing in the ivory tower? It's made worker solidarity and labour organising plummet to all-time lows since the industrial revolution, but another 50 years will surely be a win for communism, right? Especially with Bezos and the Koch brothers backing you up on the whole "workers of the world, unite in crossing every border and working in the gig economy!" platform, right?

Remember to listen to some tankie songs on Youtube tonight, useful idiot.

>>17870646

>>17870660

>>17870676
>he believes in nation states
Yikes!

>>17870686
Yeah, Marx totally wanted you to cooperate with capitalists to achieve a global nationless workers' utopia NOW, at all costs, even if it means destroying labour organisation and worker self-consciousness in every single country in the interim!! We're almost there comrade!!!

>The demand for free love is not a proletarian demand but a bourgeois one
Lenin

>>17870676
<<<
>from his literal campaign website

>>17870686
Praxis any day now comrade... With all these "sex workers" on our side commodifying their bodies and calling it Marxism, the revolution can't fail. We may have the lowest support in two centuries among the actual working class (which has been dying under the boot of the rich people who send their kids to college to learn about Marxism), but we have the highest support among polyamorous Portland tranvestites. That's gotta mean something!

>>17870712
Well yeah, it's also on his campaign website that Clinton can fuck him with a strapon whenever she likes. Obviously they got to him as soon as he became an actual threat. Point is, back when Bernie was actually representing some form of (admittedly soft) socialism, he knew that socialism = closed borders. No socialist, ever, has wanted open borders. That is a capitalist platform. I don't give a fuck about Bernie aside from making that point.

Guess when socialism became obsessed with internationalism? When it got flooded with Eastern European radical Jews in successive waves in the '30s and '60s. Before the Jewish influx, socialism was NEVER internationalist, it was an unspoken assumption that socialism meant workers' rights within the country in question. International cooperation with other workers was great, but nobody engaged in it thought it meant opening the borders. Let alone to scabs from third world countries who will obviously work for peanuts.

>>17870313
A dipshit with nothing of value to say beyond "clean your room, ape."

>>17870738
Okay
and fair enough
But dont pretend the left is "above" talking shit on random right-wing intellectuales who wrote book.

>>17870676
>>17870712
This poignantly delineates the shift from 2000s leftist narrative (A New Woke) to 2010s leftist narrative (Cultural Marxism Strikes Back).
It is indeed true that prior to 2013 thereabouts Leftists regularly pointed to exploited Mexican labor by unscrupulous businesses, particularly farming of course, as a reason why rightists would advocate for open borders or resist immigration reform. However, as a consequence of the post-Trayvon Martin & Gamergate turn in Leftism, the class and labor critiques were abandoned completely (see the subversion of Occupy Wallstreet and the death of all such movements afterward) and the racial element refocused and emphasized. Now, it was the rightist position to advocate against open borders and push for immigration reform because they are racist and trying to establish white supremacy in America.

>>17870729
>Guess when socialism became obsessed with internationalism?
The 1860s.

>>17870729
>>17870765
Not a bad take for a lefty
If more people on the economic left were this non-cucked it probably would get alot more traction with the actual working class.

>>17870769
New Left revisionist trash. You would have been shot in the '20s. Have a nice threesome with Marcuse and Reich in hell when you get there. Not sure if the CIA will just watch or require some kind of hazing ritual of you.

>>17869266
COPE
O
P
E

>>17870781
Admit the biological reality of race and accept the Jewish Question? So Jews are on top because they are the biological ubermenschen?

>>17870798
Pop quiz retard: within which organization would you find both Karl Marx and Mikhail Bakunin participating in?

>>17870847
"
>>/lit/thread/17867865#p17868084
Anonymous Thu Mar 25 17:03:09 2021 No.17868084

>>17868049
So whites have been ruled by Jews for 2,000 years through Christianity? Kind pathetic. Whites don’t deserve any sympathy but only mockery for this. That means they deserve to be destroyed for being weak. "

>>17870859
I'd say read posts before replying but you haven't read Marx or Bakunin so you're a lost cause. Enjoy watching Ocasio-Cortez and the DSA continue to fuck the working class. Go participate in some corporate-sponsored riots while you're at it.

>>17870868
lmao, what? This is incoherent. Modern Jews reject the NT, that's why they are Jews and not Christians. Are you implying that Jews have publicly rejected the NT but are secretly coordinating to encourage it among goyim because it lets them dominate the goyim somehow even though, as aforementioned, it's not their actual religion? And that having others follow a religion in which your people (the Jews) can be interpreted as responsible for killing the prophet and thus be eternally hostile to you, is somehow advantageous?

>>17869935
> Why is there distrust?
I don’t know maybe because>>17869876: > But they will be outnumbered and drawn and quartered if need be.

I’m a blue collar worker, I’m a mechanic who works on transmissions (pic related), and I can tell you people like me who Marxist claim to represent don’t trust an ideology that is so fervently ready to upset the status-quo and willing to resort to violence to make it happen.

>>17870940
On the one hand, you seem to know enough to be able to take just a few more steps forward and reach the proper conclusions. But on the other hand, you are evidently not bright enough at all to be able to do so.

>>17870961
im sorry sweetie, you WILL fall in line, butters says so, and that why anarchism is viable

>>17870961
Since the new millennium you and your lot (skilled manual laborers) are no longer the modern Marxist's "proletarian"; you are the opposite side of the coin of the urban professional white collar worker. The new proletarian is the lumpenproletarian red collar workers who are stuck in shitty service jobs cashiering and flipping burgers---those are the people who actually wake up and go to sleep with homicidal urges and thoughts everyday that are fantasizing about a violent end to their and their lot's suffering.

Do people actually talk to butthurtfly? I didn't even know she was posting until now. Filter her and breathe easier.

>>17870981
deconstructing her world view when she posts comically stupid shit while trying to garner attention is more fun

>>17870962
Clearly you are in a much better state. Resourceful enough to be linking 4chan posts from one thread to another, and on the other hand, not creative enough to come up with anything but a shitty ad hominem.

>>17869266
>hated blacks
>pro guns
This kills the modern lefty

>>17870961
lumpenprole sputtering on even as his kind die out around him

>>17871005
lmao I looked up the DSA on gun control
https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/the_second_amendment_is_a_threat_to_us_all/

>>17870978
I really do sympathize with service industry workers, I work 7 years doing retail for minimum wage it’s fucking tough, but that’s what ultimately motivated me to get my associates and start working my way up to better paying jobs. I know it’s fucked and I don’t think anyone going to deny that, but becoming radicalized by some fringe ideology because you hate the system and want to tear it down is irrational, your going to do more harm than good, and I think history has shown that time and time again: the French revolution, the Russian revolution, the rise of nazi Germany, Haiti, Cuba, Brazil, China, Libya, Angola, Zimbabwe, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey (from the Ottoman Empire), Nicaragua, Mexico, Etc.

>>17869399
Stop being so generous. The liberal revolutions had very similar problems in Europe. Communism's attempt at a revolution and its failures are the failures of all revolutions.

>>17871060
It's funny how all those examples of failure supporting your theory pale in contrast to the greatest success story rebutting it, of The United States.

>>17871084
>theory
*thesis

>>17871013
>We are for the working class!
>The working class is too stupid, they need to be told what to do!
You know what, go fuck yourself commie. I’m working full time at a job I don’t hate for the first time in my life and I just bought first house I’ve ever owned. Can you say the same? I don’t have some fancy 500,000$ Collage degree in academia, I’ve got a 30,000$ degree in automotive from a local technical school, that I’m paying for myself. But I’m sure that expensive degree and the fact you read Marx makes you the expert on what I mere simple laborers like me huh? Because, not just anyone can read marxs and interpret it correctly, no only you, the proletariat can understand it because the lumpenprole are simple minded people who can only be led. Let’s hope those delicate hands of yours don’t ever half to be dirtied working on your eco-friendly car (pic related) because such unskilled and simple work is beneath you.

>>17871201
every time I interact with commies, Dostoyevsky's "Demons" rings true. they truly are despicable people, ugly right to the core

>>17871039
Liberals suffer from a severe and convenient case of cognitive dissonance, it’s the same reason why they refuse to acknowledge pic related

>>17869399
>>17871062
>>17869964
>install communism
>dialectical materialism
You're hopelessly retarded. Read Marx.

>>17871201
Muttanalysis. The best Marx can do is trigger the entire spectrum of classes, ey?

>>17871300
You retard the idea of the quote in the pic you posted is more or less precisely what I was alluding to.

>>17871325
WRONG.

>>17871300
why would I read marx after reading your post? you just informed me he was definitely without a doubt incorrect even more thoroughly than i previously believed

>>17871285
This was actually marx defending the jews against Bauer. It's not an anti-Semitic piece of lit like you /pol/tards believe. Maybe read something for once?

Camus was right about commies having 'faith' in Marx

>>17871398
You have read neither so don't flatter yourself pseud

>>17869266
Aren't all of them snake oil salesmen? There is a point beyond which its all words with no grounding in reality.

>>17871317
Is Marx the ultrasound shitposter?

>>17871403
Cope

>>17871420
Pretty much, there is no right or wrong, just convincing enough dumb people to buy your own brand of bullshit.

>>17870395
Holy fuck that image is retarded. Way to completely misunderstand the LTV

>>17871649
Not a single modern economist takes LTV seriously

>>17871649
Modern art proves that labor theory of value is bullshit

>>17870708
Based & accurate

>>17871660
>economics
>>>/x/
but really, economists are just establishment lackeys, no shit they don't validate an anti-establishment theory

>>17871677
art is not a commodity.

>>17869957
You could argue that capitalism is only still surviving because of increasing social welfare and social democracies being the new norm. Perhaps a very slow and gradual shift.

>>17870313
I think thats a bigger problem though, I mean if right wingers were reading Adam Smith or something, it would be pretty cool or John Locke. However you're comparing Karl Marx to Jordan Peterson.. Say what you want about Marx, but he has a massive backlog of philosophical and political writing and were one of the most influential political writers and philosophers of all time. Some would say in good ways, others would say in bad ways. People dont discuss that though, they just shitpost the usual pic of Marx and then "haha he was so stupid am I right?" 5 times a day.
Compare that to Jordan Peterson who is most known for a youtube channel and 2 self help books.. I mean jesus christ, if that's the basis for modern right wing thought then no wonder it's in trouble, when that's a supposed "right wing intellectual".
There's not much to discuss about Jordan Peterson, its clear he is a great psychiatrist, but not relevant when discussing bigger political ideas then "muh sjw and neomarxists bad".

>>17871805
>in communism people will voluntarily work together toward the greater good
Strawman. To each according to his ability and sho on.

>>17871385
They will never read, /pol/tards just misinterpret statistics all day and jerk off to their own narratives.

>>17871805
>People are selfish
They aren't though? I hate this myth, humans would never have gotten as far as we are not if everyone was a selfish psychopath, the very foundation of our progress lies in banding together and cooperating to achieve great feats. What do you think society or an economy is all about? Its social relations dummy.

>>17871827
Communism only works in utopian society with no scarcity

>>17871858
And leftists just play word games by redefining words to fit their own narrative and dodging questions

>>17871660
>Not a single modern economist takes LTV seriously

That's because the job of an economist today is simply to defend capitalism, not to produce ideas that could lead to a better economic system.

>>17869891
Except Marx is still utopian at his core. The idea that "communism will find itself out" is perhaps far more utopian than all those thinkers who meticulously planned out what communism would look like.

>>17871876
>better economic system
You mean the one where everyone starves to death because they keep demanding free money

>>17871887
No I mean a system that incorporates all the "good" parts of capitalism, like its technological capacity and productivity, without the massive inequality, waste and environmental degradation.

This is what's actually called dialectical materialism.

>>17871869
Do you have anything more compelling to offer than muh utopian? Not only is marxism explicitly anti-utopian, think about how many times a day or week a communist hears this. It's literally one of the only thing you tards say in addition to
>DUDE COMMUNISM NO FOOD LMAO.
Do you think you will be the one to change their mind on the million and firth recital?
>scarcity
born yesterday? we're well past post scarcity

>>17869670
>Dude im not an economist im actually criticizing economics, even though i have ideas on how goods and services should be distributed
Thats like saying that youre not practising philosophy when youre criticizing philosophy.

>>17871921
What else are we supposed to say when your retarded system hasn't worked out once and you are never ever able to take responsibility and admit mistakes? The whole idea of equality is cancer because equality is the antithesis of freedom.
>we're well past post scarcity
Bullshit

>>17871879
Not utopian, that's dialectical and his main point is that it won't happen "peacefully" by reforms.

>>17871945
Marx explicitly advocates against utopian ideas of equality.
Read more dumb faggot.

>>17871913
What's wrong with inequality? Hierarchy and competition drivs a society forward. Only jealous losers demand equality.

>>17871952
"Competion" is a capitalist myth, a street urchin with deadbeat parents cannot compete with Bill Gates. Your hierarchy is artificial and purely luck based.

>>17871947
>All problems will disappear after this period of religious purific- i mean "revolution", and we will finally have a utopi- i mean communism.
>How do i know this? Dude just trust me, im a scientist.

>>17871955
He has never said all problems will disappear? He says the internal antagonisms of capitalism will in the end play themself out to the point where it's unable to reproduce itself, and then it will unravel and socialism and then communism will be reinstated instead. So far this has been very true, seeing how the welfare state is becoming the primary system among first world countries, and given more time it will slide towards more and more leftist modes of society.

>>17871952
>What's wrong with inequality?

Nothing? Only retards who haven't read Marx think that abolishing capitalism will abolish inequality. Some inequality is good, such as using more resources on people who have cancer than someone with a broken arm, but that doesn't mean capitalist inequality is good, because capitalist inequality is based on exploitation.

>>17871945
>What else are we supposed to say
How about nothing until you've read a book you tard

>>17871985
>read a book
That's all you retards say
I care abot practice not theory

>>17871998
Yes we're literally telling you to educate yourself and you apparently take exception to that.

>>17872048
>educate yourself
>reads books disproving marxism
>no not like that

>>17872064
reddit tier response aside, that would be a vast improvement on your current capacity.

>>17872070
Do you think it's a coincidence that almost every prominent Marxist who is supposed to be pro working class was a privileged rich cunt who never worked in their life?

>>17871985
>>17872048
The most effective way to become an anti communist is to live through it

>>17872111
I don't think that's a coincidence anymore than its a coincidence that every boat salesman is a Republican.

>>17872111
How does them being rich detract from them supporting the working class? They could have taken the easy road and played capitalist on easy mode, but instead they choose to break the cycle. In this respect, it strengthens their position as they can't be labelled as "just another jealous poor person." Funny how marxists are often labelled as privileged rich people but simultaneously as also jealous poor people.
>>17872133
Where did you live through it? My father lived through it. Still a commie.

Does anyone have that pic of Marx and another guy stacking cans and the other guy points out how his law of surplus value contradicts his own laws and Marx starts crying and the cans fall down

Marxists are the new religious fanatics but instead of Jesus they worship an old bearded guy and the state

>>17871966
>exploitation
what's this marxist justification for resorting to this moralistic spook

>>17872157
I never understood the "old people or people in general think it was better" liberal style argument. There's a majority of people in my own country that think it's just a fine place to be in and will continue to be so. Same goes for many other euro countries. Do I give a damn about their ignorance and conformity? No. Most people generally don't know what they truly want.

>>17871879
Communism won't "find itself out". It's development is the real movement of forces that are in place right now.

>>17872609
Thats just a vacuous statement to hide that Marx had no idea what would happen. The "real movement of forces" could just as easily lead to complete stagnation, famine, and war.

>>17872635
Determinists are all psychics

>>17870961
>maybe because>>
Yeah, already answered that.
>drawn and quartered
So you think authoritarians will want to join a direct democracy and take power and when they can’t that’s somehow a failure of democracy?

That is what you’re making a case for. We have long histories of authoritarians running things, and they’ll continue to coral people into their differing forms of government, but we shouldn’t expect anything different. Places that have traditions of calling themselves democratic need to try actual democracy.

Seems like his cultists were set off by OP

>>17872609
Interesting how the development of those forces led to social democracy, fascism, and neo liberalism

People like >>17872713 get off on making an ass out of themselves in public. Don’t indulge them.

>>17872977
>not anonymous?!
You’re the ass

>All the neckbeards ackhkchhhshullying to cope with the fact this guys ideas were as bankrupt as he was when he died in a gutter

Soft times create weak people indeed.

>>17870406
>>17871649
>>17871778
>>17871876
>economists don't like the LTV because they're in on an anti-marxist conspiracy!
holy cope

>>17871869
That's exactly why Marx saw it as the next economic stage after capitalism.

>>17869266
Click on any thread that uses the face of this chump, and you'll experience a level of discourse way, way lower than the average, from both sides of the argument mind you, a most thought provoking ocurrance.

>>17872329
>moralistic spook

It's not a "moralism", it's literally a function of the system.

A worker works to make a capitalist rich, just like a slave worked to make the aristocrat rich, not even people who hate communism can deny this fact of the economy, and the question is why the fuck he should when it's not in his own interest.

>>17873033
ltv is some ricardo bullshit, the fact that the ltv is even attributed to marx is stupid to begin with

>>17871805
Marx doesn't say any of those. People are full of desires and drives (sadism, sympathy, love etc.) that are shaped by material conditions, power relations and life activity. In socialism there is actually supposed to be reward for work. "To each according to his contribution". This gets left behind only after a long time, when communism is reached and free association to the means of subsistence and production become more prominent.

>>17871866
It's not a myth if you ask me. We aren't all "selfish psychopaths" (which doesn't exactly make sense, psychopath is used to describe someone who can't feel.) but do you really think people aren't motivated by self interest? We come together because we believe it will help us or enrich our own lives. Cooperate great feats to add to my name, my wealth.. Social relations are just necessary for that end. We only truly care about ourselves and our packs or families.

>>17873545
Everything you just said is far away fro contradicting with marxism

>>17873637
Well that is also my first post in this thread not necessarily trying to.