/lit/ - Literature

i have a copy of trotsky's biography right here that i bought in a long gone used bookstore in nyc like 15 years ago, i will read it one day

>>17660388
I read around half of it back in college. Haven’t read anything mildly trotskyist since I found grover furr (pbuh)

>>17660388
I haven't. What's it about?

>>17660428
Trotsky coping with the BIG BVLL STALIN's masculine collectivization strategy

>>17660428
it's about how stalin betrayed marxist principles and ruined any chance of global communism as marx predicted by turning fascist (which was true, as opposed to what Stalinists will tell you

>>17660593
If it wasn't for Stalin, USSR would've been completely annexed by Germans. Stalin saved the world from biological racist hegemony. Communism dies either way.

>>17660388
He betrayed the revolution. But I suppose this is about Stalin’s further degradation
>>17660593
Ah, there ya go. Bakunin knew.

>>17660616
The Russian people beat back the Nazis.

>>17660635
The snow beat them back.

>>17660635
Would've been virtually impossible if Stalin hadn't built up Russia's industrial base through collectivization, along with industrial (lend-lease) support from America. The only reason, for example, the Germans weren't able to totally steamroll Russia is because of the T-34 tank (as well as heavier tanks built in smaller numbers like KV-1), which were mass-produced thanks to Stalin's industrial programmes.
>>17660649
This is also wrong. The snow and mud didn't help, but if it weren't for the Russian's collectivized manpower and industrial equipment, it wouldn't have saved them. Despite all of this, the Germans came to the outskirts of Moscow and Leningrad. They only just barely lost.

>>17660388
"Not I" said the duck

>>17660660
So you’re saying Trotsky in control after Lenin’s death wouldn’t have done the same?

>>17660593
Interesting because top trotskyists in the soviet union and abroad were caught working with nazis and imperial japan to oust stalin, who was the democratically elected leader of the Soviet Union at the time.

>>17660616
>biological racist hegemony
that's not what nazism is, and the anthropological autism was minor and on its way out by the latter half. not everyone agreed with it to begin with because it impedes the natural tolerance europeans had developed culturally. america, the world hegemony, was and is much more of biological racists. much better to be a black man in nazi germany than amerikkka. america had a lapse for a couple decades and then brought it back in full force. they just can't help themselves.

>>17660635
> The Russian people beat back the Nazis
The purging of nazis from the red army and the rapid industrialization of society, both orchestrated by Stalin and the central committee , didn’t hurt either.

>>17660683
Trotsky was in favor of social democracy and decentralization (world revolution). Without aggressively expanding the USSR's industry (centralization/collectivization), which was in an absolutely shocking state after Lenin's death, they would've been in a much less advantageous position to resist German fascism. There's little good about Stalin, but he did recognize the need for Russia to defend itself against its neighbors (mainly Germany) lest it is wiped off the map.

Even if you're not interested in military history at all, I can't recommend reading about the interplay of Germany and Russia enough prior to and after the beginning of Barbarossa, mainly with respect to industry and resources, which were the deciding factors of the war. It's true, millions of Russians had to die, but those lives would've all been wasted if they didn't have adequate machinery, equipment and weapons to fight, just like in WW1 where Russians went into battle with one rifle between three people (in that case they were just lucky Germany did not have panzer divisions, and Germany was fighting on two fronts).

>>17660771
This is a total misrepresentation of Trotskyite politics which are thoroughly marxist and leninist and thus pro-centralization and state monopoly, but you are still correct in that Trotsky was a worthless shitter who would have destroyed the democratic centralism of the Soviet system.

kek leftists are beyond delusional
>the revolution was betrayed! that's totally it! it totally has nothing to do with the fact that the entire concept of the leftist revolution was inherently self defeating pipe dream due to its complete reliance on centralized power structures! also literally every other leftist revolution ended the same way because they all just happened to be betrayed in the exact same manor lol
pure unadulterated cope

>>17660809
>also literally every other leftist revolution ended the same way
that feel when china is taking over the world economy and you have to cope by saying all leftist revolutions fail

>>17660831
Maoism is another form of Stalinism, ie failed Leninism.

>>17660831
im pretty sure the fact that it ended with a totalitarian class based capitalist society where the upper class controls the means of production and workers are thrown into sweat shops means it was a failure, yes

>>17660851
>Maoism is another form of Stalinism, ie failed Leninism.
You’re literally illiterate. Stalinism and Leninism are just Marxism-Leninism. Mao and China are just Marxist-Leninists. That also isn’t the clever retort you think it is. China is still getting closer to being the world hegemon every day, they’ve already displaced the US as the sole world power.

>>17660886
Ending absolute poverty and having the world’s best infrastructure is dumb sick, don’t care what you say ultra. That’s socialism done right, cautiously.

>>17660891
China has far more in common with Mussolini fascism than Leninism or Stalinism. The fact that the most populous country in the world with massive deposit of natural resources is still number 2 is an indictment of their system. If China were to go full bore American style capitalism and representative democracy, they'd be world number 1 with no near equal.

>>17660902
Someone has never been to a tier three Chinese city. Lol.

>>17660902
aah yes successful socialism is when the working class are stripped of their rights and worked to death in abhorrent conditions while the elites live it up in life of luxury using the profits of that exploitation

why the fuck do you people still try to LARP as "socialists" anyway, it would be less weird and embarrassing for you if you just embraced your actual beliefs. you like authoritarianism and capitalism, not socialism, china is dominating the world because it is a ruthless capitalist state not because its "socialist"

the only "success" socialism is that it automatically fails and creates a ruthless authoritarian capitalist state in its wake

>>17660935
They started their industrialization a century after the United States and were only allowed entrance to the world economy in the mid 70s. You cannot compare the two in such a way as you are doing.
>>17660940
You ever been to Detroit? Or San Francisco? Or LA? Or NYC? Or Portland? Or Seattle? Or Baltimore? Or New Orleans? Or fucking Washington DC? All the major cities of the strongest nation on Earth are shitholes filled with rotting infrastructure and homelessness, they are worse than any “third tier” Chinese city.

>>17660962
One cannot build socialism while the imperialist capitalist powers hold a world monopoly. The hegemony must be broken first. This is what China is doing. Remember, the capitalist will sell us the rope which we will use to hang them, just as the US sold China all the factories and influence that China will use to hang the US.

>>17660891
>Stalinism and Leninism are just Marxism-Leninism.
Trotsky would disagree with you. I'd disagree with you.

>Stalinism is the means of governing and policies which were implemented in the Soviet Union from 1927 to 1953 by Joseph Stalin. It included the creation of a one-party totalitarian police state; rapid industrialization; the theory of socialism in one country; collectivization of agriculture; intensification of the class struggle under socialism; a cult of personality;
How does this not sound more like Maoism than Leninism to you? Mao himself even has a cult of personality, unlike Lenin.

>>17660977
Nice whataboutism. You claimed that they eliminated poverty which is laughable.

South Korea managed to do it in even less time thus proving my point. China should be number 1 and no contest. They are holding themselves back.

>>17660996
>xi will turn over control the means of production any day now, just trust me bro
like I said, delusional

>>17660997
>Trotsky would disagree with you. I'd disagree with you.
Marxism-Leninism was literally coined by the so-called “Stalinist” section of the Soviet Union. There is no stalinism, only marxism-leninism.
> How does this not sound more like Maoism than Leninism to you?
You’re a mega retard jfc. Mao was a marxist-leninist just like Stalin, just like Deng, Xi, Hoxha, Kruschev. He was not a maoist. You have no historical or theoretical knowledge of marxism. You’re a retard like all other trotskyites

>>17661014
https://apnews.com/article/china-celebrates-end-extreme-poverty-1449b5dc8a48483af847f4c38f64c326

LOL, go back to your shtihole country america LOL

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>>17660593
communism is inherently fascistic, like any atheism, since it deifies the public servants.

>>17661118
retard

>>17661413
State centralized government is inherently authoritarian is what you mean to say.

Communism is something you’ve never actually understood

>>17660626
stalin was trying to prevent PNAC and would have succeeded if he'd been more thorough purging trotskyists

>>17661443
imagine being so dumb you still cant grasp the relationship between theoretical outcomes of communism with communism in practice. you really do have pretty lackluster cognitive abilities
>but it didn't turn out how I thought it would so its not REAL communism
you people are genuinely an embarrassment to the human race

>>17660388
Some jew communist seething that he was usurped in an internal power struggle and claiming that his opponents don't represent the eternal truth and message of holy scripture. Yep very interesting.

>>17661483
You have no idea of what you’re talking about.
I suspect you pride yourself on this ignorance and aren’t even interested to know, really know, what’s been going on for the past two hundred years

>>17661514
Just learned he died fairly recently. Was he an alcoholic?

>>17661514
your an anarchist and act smug about it butters, you telling anyone they have pride in their ignorance is the most blatantly obvious case of projection in human history, that's literally your entire personality

>>17660418
>grover furr
back to /leftypol/

>>17660902
>Being in contact with reality makes you an ultra
Wow. What a burn.

>>17661541
No, he was just in Venice.
I suspect foul play.

>>17661546
>your
Here’s a freeby. The Americans had a war of independence only. The French, the European spring and the Russians all failed in their attempted revolutions. Coups are a changing of the guard and back to business as usual governance. An actual revolution has to be social, economic and not just political. You wanna swallow that idiot pride of yours and read a comfy utopian to explain things.
Read this

>>17660388
I didn't read it!

>>17661583
lol mate basing your beliefs on "comfy utopian" fantasies is exactly why you are retarded subhuman trash who deserve to be persecuted to the fullest extent. people like you destroy civilizations while your too busy jerking yourself off over the lowest hanging theoretical fruits like you're some sort of genius instead of actually finding real solutions. the funny thing is the fact that you people lean entirely on utopian fantasy instead of reality is also the reason literally every leftist movement was so easily subverted by capitalists with barely any effort, utopian ideas allow you to be manipulated systematically into dividing the working class

>>17661583
You just take revolution to be automatically good and then when things turn out to your dislike you deny it was a revolution all together. .

>>17661631
>basing your beliefs on "comf
I’m not. Just recommending a book for a pea-brain.
Don’t respond to me again till you read it.

>>17661583
>it wasn't a REAL revolution, it will be different this time! its not like the entire premise of the leftist revolution is self defeating in nature, its just a coincidence that basically every revolution just happened to not be a real revolution and had the same outcomes lol

>>17661641
If it doesn’t turn around it isn’t a revolution. Simple.

>>17661641
Yes but what you said is trivially true. Of course people like things until they show qualities the person doesn't like. That's a tautology.

>>17661664
Nope it's a flaw of thinking that can be avoided. We can ask the question does B result from A, and upon observing A leading to B and being displeased with it we can convince ourselves that what we observed wasn't A at all.

>>17661648
ive seen you debate butters, your entire belief system is held together by the power of friendship and magic and cannot actually be backed up in any tangible way. your entire belief system IS based on "comfy utopian" fantasy, thats why you believe in it, its comforting and ideal, and you literally lack the will and/or the cognitive abilities to see the holes in retarded utopian fantasies like that

>>17661660
>its not a revolution unless i say it is, its not like real life can get significantly more complicated than my utopian fantasies and things can turn out not as I anticipated

so THIS is the power of leftist intellectualism, laid bare for all to see

Read it a few months ago, it was pretty interesting. From what I gathered Trotsky predicted that either the USSR would have another revolution or become more and more capitalistic, which is exactly what happened.

Speaking of Trotsky, anyone read his book on the Russian revolution? people say its a good non-fiction account of what happened but I'm afraid it'll be too opinionated or partial or whatever

>>17660762
Literally cite your sources

>>17661583
America only won their war because they grifted the french. They never paid their debts because "god said they didn't have to", this trying the french revolution, allowing the Jacobins to fail, and leaving france and europe to Nepoleon. America has been a parasite since it's inception

>>17662793
I have similar concers

>>17660616
Yeah I'm sure all those purges and being totally oblivious to the Nazi buildup at the borders helped a lot. Commies won in spite of Stalin.

>>17662793
Let's say he's a way less opinionated than your average /lit/ or /his/ poster.

Just read it for the narrative alone, Trotsky is a brilliant publicist. If you want it a different account, you can read Denikin afterwards.

>>17662990
>being totally oblivious to the Nazi buildup
This is the exact opposite of what actually happened. Stalin was planning on invading Germany himself (after invading Romania), he was merely hoping/expecting that Germany would not invade before his plans were ready (Stalin actually had his main military buildup along the Romanian border for this reason; Hitler knew about this and wanted to strike Russia through northern Europe before he invaded Romania).
>purges
This is really the only strike against Stalin militarily, and it's still not as bad as it's generally made out to be because he had famous generals like Zhukov (who was the main savior of the Red Army), Timoshenko and Vasilevsky winning the war for him on the ground.

>>17660388

>>17660616
>saved the world
>biological racist hegemony
Wew, lad, the word you are looking for is "deprived"

>>17660770
> The purging of nazis from the red army

Wow, I can't believe there are people who still legitimately believe that Tukhachevsky was a Nazi.

Isn't the standard Stalinist line to say that the Purges were excessive but blame it all on Yezhov?

>>17662793
Sukhanov is better if you can find a copy of his work.

>>17662958
Kinda paid back on the beaches of Normandy