/lit/ - Literature

>>17605542
transformation mastery

What answers are you looking for?

>>17605542
Yes. Much of "spirituality" and "esotericism" in the west is just watered down platonism. I have read much of both and can tell you, most literature you read on it is bullshit and a dead end. Just focus on the actual philosophical writing, let the field of history of religion where it is - you will get nothing out of vaguely argued cultural studies, and they are all extremely redundant. If you what you seek are "answers", by which I hope you mean complex perspectives on life and not the actual explanation of everything in the universe, start from pic related if you haven't already. Read Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus.

Read UG Krishnamurti and then go lift.

>>17605571
To expand - "esotericism", "spirituality" and the "occult" are almost always associated on this board as if they were the same thing, which they are not. People have very vague understanding of all of these and have no reading experience whatsoever beside Guenon and Evola, most of the times, which they don't understand at all. So focus on just philosophy, drop the history of religion, weird esoteric and occult stuff, and start think by yourself.

>>17605542
You were not shown the right path (for you).

First and foremost, you must recognise the existence of eternal values and truths for man. You will try to run from this fact when searching for it, but you will find it is true. Read Heidegger and watch these introductions to him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_os-ysZJM_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FvtrBSG8tk

The second one isn't as good as the first but it's still very useful.

>>17605569
What this is, why we're here and where we're headed. I'm aware I'll never know this but I wanted to at least come upon convincing information.
I read various takes, but everyone ends up contradicting each other. There's nothing to hang on to, all religions have a different way of seeing things and if you don't follow their particular model you're fucked. It's all so complicated, stressful even.

>>17605571
Plotinus comes a level below Plato and Aristotle, considering (and I say this as a lover of Plotinus) he completely misunderstood Plato's most important dialogue.

>>17605581
Nahh, I'd definitely recommend him read the Bible and meditate on its meaning, as well as look into any other religions. The Grecian obviously already because he is reading the Greeks.

>>17605571
What makes Platonism more likely to be closest to the truth than other conflicting models?

>>17605586
>you must recognise the existence of eternal values and truths for man
I'll watch the videos, but why?

>>17605590
>What this is, why we're here and where we're headed. I'm aware I'll never know this but I wanted to at least come upon convincing information.
You will know this anon, but the answer(s) to life is always beyond some exact object-oriented answer, like "such and such is the absolute purpose of life," no matter how much our words can approach the meaning to life, like in traditional society "to follow God."

Read this article on Goethe's conception of the Prime-Phenomenon:

https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/urphaenomen.htm

The first part of it is a bit autistic because of Hegel but once you get past that, continue to read it and you will unironically find at least one of the strongest answers yes as to the meaning of life. Please anon, just read all of it.

>>17605607
Well those words were a bit of an exaggeration, but the point was that you're denying life its intrinsic meaning. The question of the existence and eternality of values and truths, comes from the temporal life, not a literal-causal numbering.

I know I'm just currently making what sound like generalities, but first I must know, what did you read in the past 5 years searching for meaning?

>>17605601
Well for one fate has allowed it to last this long.

>>17605590
Esotericism is not abstract speculation. You perform ritual theurgy like Eliphas Levi. You experience ontological transformation directly. Your states of consciousness change like a physical fact. That is the operative point. Anything else is, as you said, inconsequential; armchair occultism.

>>17605616
>You will know this anon
So far I'm getting discouraged. It's not like I expect a specific kind of answer, just something to guide me towards understanding.
>Read this article
I'm reading it.
>>17605628
>what did you read in the past 5 years searching for meaning?
I've only been at it for two years. Mostly books on Gnosticism and Christianity, eastern religions, traditionalism and some Jung.
>>17605631
Many philosophies have lasted a long time as well. Is that really an appropriate criterion?
>>17605634
It's true that I disregarded practical experience because I wanted to get a full view of the big picture first.

>>17605681
>It's true that I disregarded practical experience because I wanted to get a full view of the big picture first.
That's where you fucked up. It's the other way around.

i got deep into it and all i got was: absolute reality is beyond our comprehension, either unknowable or only knowable to a certain degree, "all is one", etc. i tossed it all aside just a few months ago and feel better for it.

>>17605542
Books wont do that if they haven't already. Consider going normie for a year. Go out, meet people, play sports, post on instagram, etc. This might work.

>>17605690
if you go for practical experience first you probably end fucking it up way worst than OP. dont give shitty airy remarks that go nowhere.

>>17605542
All philosophy/spirituality/ideology including science is the useless pursuit of knowledge IF you are using it to transform your life. Nothing can make you transcend.

>>17605690
This
>>17605681
You wont get to see the big picture without actually taking action. Jung didn't just read a bunch of books; he practiced the operations. His work would be worthless otherwise, and most obviously, even to the layman.

>>17605719
You're actually not wrong, but it's what I did and I learned two very important things firsthand.

1. It's real
2. I need to learn how to do it properly.

I'd have never gotten that critical understanding had I just been content with mumbling over theory for years and years. But I get it, not everyone is willing to just dive in headfirst and see where they land.

>>17605743
>>17605739
I'm still unsure as to what kind of action I should take. All these people seemed to know what they were supposed to do in order to break through rationality into the realm of pure experience, I still have no idea.

>>17605749
Just meditate for now until you find a particular tradition that resonates with you. The basis of any magical action is inner silence, and meditation is the key factor there.

>>17605719
>>17605743
Experience isn't just mystical experiences, or rather that makes up a less important and common element. What is most important in the experience first off, is the actual belief and living.

>>17605743
what exactly did you do and what is a good starting point?

You will not find truth in others.
You must look within.

>>17605753
You can't just swap and change different religions, and as both Jung and Heidegger noted, a Westerner should never wholly take on an Eastern religion, but they can be enormously helpful so it doesn't hurt to try a Hindu mantra as well as a Christian prayer sometimes. But don't just do it willy nilly.

>>17605753
I've been meditating for some time. Aside from some shallow improvements in my everyday life (being more relaxed, less physically tense, able to control my emotions better) nothing has happened.
>>17605757
That carries the risk of becoming delusional.

This is the worst thread ever do not listen to anyone in this thread. Absolutely no good post.

>>17605763
>Aside from some shallow improvements in my everyday life (being more relaxed, less physically tense, able to control my emotions better) nothing has happened.
Just keep going in that line, those are essential factors you can't underestimate.

>>17605761
You're not wrong but I'm not gonna be the guy to shill my own particular practice. He needs to follow his own intuition and see where that leads him, along side checking his own intentions and motivations.

>>17605761
Is it necessary to choose a religion?
Eastern beliefs had some interesting concepts but I don't see myself actually becoming a hindu or buddhist, there are too many things I dislike about them both philosophically and aesthetically. At the same time I don't feel a particular pull towards abrahamic religions either.

>>17605730
Incorrect. You CAN transcend if you are one of the elect and you engage in the practices of systems like: Advaita Vedanta, Buddhism, operative Taoism and chi gung, Sufism, Neoplatonism, hermeticism, Gnosticism, Western magick, and some of shamanism sometimes.
G.I Gurdjieff, Aleister Crowley, Julius Evola, Carl Jung, and Eliphas Levi are all good authors on this who actually practiced what they preached, with very minimal larping. (Except for Crowley, larper extraordinaire)

>>17605774
Agreed, intuition is very important for all of this, but that does not always stop people from spending pointless years on a completely false "spirituality".

>>17605777
>Is it necessary to choose a religion?
Yes, but not exactly a specific religion. A man will always have a religion of some kind. A religious feeling to something.

I suggest looking more into the New Testament anon, there's a reason it has inspired our civilisation for so long as the literal word of God. And whether you like it or not, you are part of this civilisation, and should be intimately familiar with its spirituality.

>>17605787
It's not even possible to become initiated into any of these western traditions aside from sufism

>>17605787
>Aleister Crowley
>(Except for Crowley, larper extraordinaire)
Just because he practiced what he preached, in this case singing songs to satan and having gay sex, does not make him in the slightest a good author on the subject, or rather haha, a very bad author on the subject in respect to his actions.

I'm gonna say it, Crowley was a degenerate and is going to hell.

>>17605542
Just accept that spirituality is bullshit, read Nietzsche and become a secular mystic.

>>17605791
>not exactly a specific religion
By religion I meant an institutional religion. I have some vague beliefs already.
>looking more into the New Testament
I was going to do that after finishing the books I'm currently reading, but Christianity doesn't ring true to me. I have a strong eastern orthodox heritage from my family but I couldn't genuinely believe in it unless you were to remove most of what makes Christianity what it is, at which point it'd just be turned into some kind of Platonism.

>>17605808
based

>>17605793
When it comes to Western material, you can join a Golden Dawn group or a Thelemic group, and that's probably as good as it gets in terms of joining an order as a regular guy.
Some people can eventually make connections to actual secret societies, but it's very, very obscure and I don't know anything about it beyond that they do in fact exist and that you have to already know someone to get in or learn about them.
As a side note, some would say that you don't really need to join an organization and you can at least attempt a "self-initation" through practicing rituals from books. Some believe that can work, others don't.

>>17605824
>By religion I meant an institutional religion
They don't exist in this Age. The closest you'll find are the ones mentioned like Sufism, and Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism (however you seem to have already noticed the corruptions present in these institutions). There is no institution or obvious system we can lean back on in this Age due to the historical regression that has occurred, it's a matter of individual strength and creation. Have you read Evola yet? He can at least provide you with reference points and a common ground. You might be actually one of the few people I recommend Ride the Tiger to first rather than his other books. Hermeticism, Doctrine of Awakening, Mystery of the Grail, Intro. to Magic are all good too. He discusses Nietzsche in Ride the Tiger, but reading Nietzsche can be useful too if done with intellectual discretion.

>>17605833
Why are these secret/occult groups needed?

>>17605824
i like you OP. you remind me to my younger self ( i dont know your age and i dont mean to be condescendent,)
and no, i dont find any solution or religion or practice that fit yet. almost all religious people are people who really want to be part of something, they dont get there with critical thinking or observant character.
basically you (and i) are fucked.

>>17605850
Christianity never liked Esotericism or magic and so shut it down once they came to power. So magic was driven underground, or practiced as ostensibly something else, like alchemy. If you read freemasonic sources they claim that all of Western Esotericism has been part of their order but that's bullshit (like nearly everything they claim). They claim to be the Knights Templar and the Rosicrucians. Those were two different movement/orders that have nothing to do with Freemasonry. They were just esoteric secret groups of their time.
After the lingering effects of Christianity, the other enemy of Esotericism is Age of Enlightenment Rationalism. Imagine if you openly lived as a "magician" in our society; people will think you're an idiot, crazy, a charlatan, and it doesn't help that anyone who does do that really is these things.
So naturally, people meet in secret.

>>17605846
People usually recommend starting with his book on the Grail or with Revolt Against the Modern World, why do you recommend Ride the Tiger?

>>17605864
>people who really want to be part of something
I have the opposite sentiment, I don't really want to be part of anything unless it becomes necessary at some point in order to go farther.
Why do you say we're fucked?

>>17605878
Do these groups provide genuine guidance to those who are looking for answers? Are there things you find in these groups that you couldn't find on your own?

>>17605542
I feel you brother. But wretched freaks of this planet like us will never find it.
These words of Borges is the truth and it's horrible:

>If life’s meaning were explained to us, we probably wouldn’t understand it. To think that a man can find it is absurd. We can live without understanding what the world is or who we are. The important things are the ethical instinct and the intellectual instinct, are they not? The intellectual instinct is the one that makes us search while knowing that we are never going to find the answer.

>I think Lessing said that if God were to declare that in His right hand He had the truth and in his left hand He had the investigation of the truth, Lessing would ask God to open His left hand - he would want God to give him the investigation of the truth, not the truth itself. Of course he would want that, because the investigation permits infinite hypotheses, and the truth is only one, and that does not suit the intellect, because the intellect needs curiosity. In the past, I tried to believe in a personal God, but I do not think I try anymore. I remember in that respect an admirable expression of Bernard Shaw: ”God is in the making.”
____

>In the ”Zohar” (”The Book of Splendor”), which Gershom Scholem considers the most important literary work of the kabbala, there are many speculations about life after death. Swedenborg describes in detail hells and paradises. Dante’s poem is also about hell, purgatory, paradise. Where does this tendency of man come from, to try to imagine and describe something that he cannot possibly know?

>In spite of oneself, one thinks. I am almost sure to be blotted out by death, but sometimes I think it is not impossible that I may continue to live in some other manner after my physical death. I feel every suicide has that doubt: Is what I am going to do worthwhile? Will I be blotted out, or will I continue to live on another world? Or as Hamlet wonders, what dreams will come when we leave this body? It could be a nightmare. And then we would be in hell. Christians believe that one continues after death to be who he has been and that he is punished or rewarded forever, according to what he has done in this brief time that was given to him. I would prefer to continue living after death if I have to, but to forget the life I lived.

https://southerncrossreview.org/48/borges-barili.htm

>>17605542
Read this anon. I've never met someone who has read it and didn't like it.

>>17605946
He's probably right when he says the meaning is not something we could understand if it were to be brutally revealed to us. But we can work towards it, or attempt to gain some kind of partial intuition of it at the very least.
Maybe we are obliterated at death, but maybe something else happens, and you'd want to be ready in the latter case, right? Or maybe not, if all religions are wrong it wouldn't make much difference.

>>17605542
the real redpill on feeling better (the secret aim of all mysticism and search for transcendent experience) is living a normal life.

In sterquilinus invenitor

>>17605926
In secret societies and magical orders, people do undergo training under a guru, basically. What you get by joining is practicing with experienced people who will teach you. You can learn what they teach you on your own as a solitary practitioner by way of your own operations, magical diary (a record of your findings) and your guiding texts (ex. Introduction to Magic by Julius Evola or Liber ABA by Aleister Crowley).
There are books specifically for self-initation such as Kabbalah, Magick, and the Great Work of Self Transformation by Lyam Thomas Christopher. That book is a self imitation into Golden Dawn magic.
In some ways there is hardly a difference between learning solo or as part of a group because your guru and/or the books you follow will definitely be wrong about some things and you will have to correct them in your own conceptions and your undertakings and Christophers book is no exception; be prepared to reject some things outright. And you have to pay literal dues to be in most magical orders, so consider that.

There comes a point when the books need to be put down and the search inside begins.
Unironically prayer and contemplation lol

>>17605899
Because it gives you a practical orientation without any reliance on (the sometimes) vague mysticism, faith or institutional reliance. It's more instructive than both of those other two (which I, contrary to you, found to be recommended after Tiger).
>s living a normal life.
Been there, done that (that was my upbringing and early 20s). I don't want to "feel better", for which normal lives are indeed fine for. I'm discontent with that type of life and merely "feeling good." Anyone who understands will go the same way as me. Anyone who is interested in "feeling good" and feels existentially anxious will resort to desperate faith-based religions rather than the pursuit of higher knowledge and understanding.

>>17605971
Are you willing to make a bet on some religion?
My head feels like a fucking pressure cooker after thinking about all of these matter. This contemplation of "what if" and death is the real trial and torture. I wish I was never born.

>>17606005
second part meant for >>17605984

>>17605992
If only because I don't have much money to spare, self-initiation seems better, but out of curiosity, is there a hierarchy to these occult groups in terms of legitimacy and purity of the teachings?
For self-initiation, you mentioned one book (specifically about the Golden Dawn), do you know of any other trustworthy ones from other groups or traditions?

>>17605542
Take the materialism-pill and stop coping.

>>17606013
>I wish I was never born
But shit posting on 4chan is fun tho right

>>17606020
How do you cope with fear of death?

>>17606024
Read Epicurus. There's literally no reason to fear death.

>>17606024
Materialists get the heaven of permanent non-existence after death, even though this type of heaven is just as logically inconceivable as the Christian heaven.

>>17605998
I meditate already. I'm waiting to see genuine results.
>>17606013
>Are you willing to make a bet on some religion?
I'm familiar with the beliefs of most great religions and I would answer no for every one of them. I feel that they lack a certain something I can't express coherently but that drives me away from institutional religion.

>>17606029
Epicurus just gives consolations to the unwashed, fearful masses. Not really a legitimate philosopher desu.

>>17605542
It's mostly a game of language. (Think 1984, Alan Moore shit)

Our minds were formed as more words were created, and concepts discovered.

You need to avoid all social media except to talk to well mannered people, and to focus on yourself

>>17606023
I post on 4chan because I feel accepted and I have nothing better to do with my time. I think shitposting is unnecessary just like everything. Contemplation is like a termite attack on the brain.

>>17606035
>I meditate already. I'm waiting to see genuine results.
I have a bad news for you anon
https://youtu.be/WwGjkuFW0cY

>>17606060
Why do I care what some westernized street shitter has to say? Contemplation has been the staple of Christian mysticism since the coptic monks right up to the renaissance.

>>17606016
None of the groups you can join off the street have any legitimacy in terms of lineage (no matter what they tell you) but some have legitimacy in terms of there being more good than bad in their instruction. Many, if not most, are outright fraudulent and are just scams. It can still be worth it depending on the aspirant and their expectations. If you were to ever become interested in joining one, feel them out hardcore. Become as sure as you can that they mean business and if they don't, walk. And you can walk at any time. If you are tricked into joining a shitty cult, just leave. No big deal, lesson learned.
For self initiation, there is Self-Initiation Into the Golden Dawn Tradition: A Complete Curriculum of Study for Both the Solitary Magician and the Working Magical Group by a guy that runs a Golden Dawn Order, so it will not be much different from the other book I mentioned.
I will mention again Crowley's Liber ABA, a very extensive work that can be used for self-initation. And again Evola's Introduction to Magic series. Another classic is The Doctrine and Ritual of High Magic by Eliphas Levi. These particular works are transcendental in nature. Most of occultism is NOT and a distinction must be made and an instinct must be sharpened. Evola write a lot about this. You must emphatically reject and discard anything that has to do with what he calls vulgar occultism. This includes Freemasonry, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Wicca, Satanism, Neo-Paganism, African Traditional Religions, Shamanism/Neo-Shamanism, Neo-Tantra, Chaos Magick, traditional witchcraft, voodoo, hypnosis, psychic mediums and anything else that resembles these. I would not even recommend Thelema, Crowley's system, as an actual religion or to fully practice it. Take what is good and useful from his works and leave everything else.

>>17606060
>meditation is evil
At least it's been marginally improving my daily life. I know UG was against spirituality in general but I disagree with him on the alleged uselessness of spiritual pursuits.

>>17606097
Thank you for showing your Christian kindness.

>>17606103
I think UG is against the meditation which is done for the purpose of gaining Enlightenment.

>>17606102
>None of the groups you can join off the street
Do you eventually get recruited into the real deal if you're lucky and talented, is that how it works?
How come no mainstream western occult groups are truly legitimate but you can apparently still join some legitimate eastern equivalents? Is it just a consequence of Christianity suppressing esotericism?
>These particular works are transcendental in nature
What does that mean specifically, taking several teachings for the purpose of transcendence and not for the sake of the teachings themselves? And thanks.
Since you're describing a kind of pick and choose approach where teachings that are useless or strike you as wrong/misleading are to be discarded, is the essence of occultism to use the teachings as building blocks towards a deeply idiosyncratic model? In that sense, is all initiation a self-initiation?

>>17605542
Spirituality
Philosophy
Theology

None one these can be understood through reading alone. You have to live OP.

>>17606137
Western Esotericism is a misnomer; it is highly syncretic and eclectic. There are elements from many cultures that have been appropriated by it and it has been like that since ancient Greece. Every Western author or teacher on the subject has given their own interpretation of things as a means to the end. "I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's. I will not reason and compare: my business is to create." - William Blake. Thelema was Crowley's personal system that in its whole is only meaningful for him. But that does not mean that there are objective elements in it that can be used.
On the topic of transcendence, I must recommend Evola; read his essay "On The Concept of Initiation". Evolas work is most elucidating generally. But what I will tell you is that something like Chaos Magick is full of people who are legitimately insane, possessed by demons, depraved, malevolent and other negative things. Their goal is not even transcendence; it does not even occur to them or they even outright deny it's existence. Their only goal is to get laid or get money, or just alter their perception into surrealist nonsense, akin to a self induced schizophrenia. It is an antihuman practice that steals souls. It perfectly exemplifies vulgar occultism that must be rejected wholesale. Reading Evola aids in cultivating a strong orientation against or without these influences.
And what I mean by transcendence in the works I mentioned are that their aim is a lifting of your consciousness above ordinary human base consciousness and to awaken into a superconsciousness. Without worldly concern, diametrically opposed to vulgar occultism, whose only goal is the worldly and rejects the transcendental.

>>17606214
Good post. If the transcendent isn't your only goal you are better off never getting into occultism imo.

>>17605542
>want to drop everything but I can't.
of course you can

>>17606214
>There are elements from many cultures that have been appropriated by it
Does this mean that elements from schools of thought that are essentially dead (like Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, the Eleusinian mysteries) can still be included in a personal search for transcendence, because of the syncretic aspect of occultism?
>alter their perception into surrealist nonsense, akin to a self induced schizophrenia
Isn't this a recurring theme, or rather, a necessary step in the realization of higher consciousness? I think it's in Thelema for example that you'll find allusions to crossing the abyss (Da'at in Kabbalah?), or even in psychoanalysis with Jung's confrontation and integration of the Shadow. It's also a principle in alchemy although I don't know a lot about that.
Basically, "deconstructing" yourself entirely, and rising again from the chaos.
>awaken into a superconsciousness.
Is the "superconscious" individual outside of the world entirely, or in it but not of it?

>>17606137
Forgot to address these:
>Do you eventually get recruited into the real deal if you're lucky and talented, is that how it works?
That's what I've heard, but don't count on it. I don't think that it's an outright lie based what I've seen from some reputable figures but still don't get your hopes up.
>How come no mainstream western occult groups are truly legitimate
It has to do with the nebulous nature of secret societies, lack of documentation, and hoaxes. If you do deep research you will find that many of the famous groups did have a strange damaged, bastard lineage from earlier groups and this does go back hundreds of years. This enables complete fakes to enter the scene. The OTO is a perfect example, and the Golden Dawn actually started with a hoax.

>>17606260
>Isn't this a recurring theme, or rather, a necessary step in the realization of higher consciousness?
There's a very big difference between accessing altered states for the sake of clarity and insight, and accessing them for completely arbitrary reasons which have nothing to do with anything beyond one's ego. One builds you up toward a higher level of existence, the other warps and traps you in so many ways it is obscene.

>>17606292
Are the people who seek these states for curiosity ("astral projection", lucid dreaming and similar practices) trapping themselves unknowingly?

>>17606301
No, not necessarily. There are other, more explicit practices, which put them in touch with adverse forces which drive them into insanity and depravity, or else cosmic forces they simply aren't able to contend with, so long as they cling to their basic selves. In the latter case it's not unlike putting hot lava into a plastic cup, the container is simply too weak to bear it.

>>17606260
>Does this mean that elements from schools of thought that are dead can still be included in a personal search for transcendence
That's exactly right, and that's what has been done for as long as extant Western history.
>Isn't this a recurring theme, or rather, a necessary step in the realization of higher consciousness?
The difference is that the disorientation is not a step on the path to enlightenment but the goal in and of itself to those people. They have no conception of something higher than that and they therefore release themselves but the only way is down. They do not rise again. They just fall into a downward self transcendence and mistake it for freedom, which it is arguably from the human state, they become less than human and destroy themselves.
>Is the "superconscious" individual outside of the world entirely, or in it but not of it?
Once attained, you are fully identified with the unconditioned state while still alive "entering into not heaven while alive" like Elijah. But you still experience the phenomenal world while being firmly grounded in the noumenal realm, and you pivot from inside it as you move through life. Slightly similar to a deja vu. Not the same thing, but it is the closest thing I can think of that is experienced in day to day life. An assurance of immateriality while still in the world. This analogy does not do it proper justice but it will have to suffice.

>>17606311
lmao I meant "entering into heaven while alive"*
I'm phone posting and I'm too tired to catch all the auto corrects.

>>17606310
>There are other, more explicit practices
You mean ritualism?
What are the necessary steps to reinforce the container as to not be shattered by those experiences?

>>17606321
>What are the necessary steps to reinforce the container as to not be shattered by those experiences?
The steps are what any legitimate esoteric tradition will tell you. Purify your thoughts and emotions, go beyond your ego, strive to see with nothing but absolute clarity, and then you'll be ready to handle higher levels of reality without being destroyed.

>>17606311
>fully identified with the unconditioned state
Are there degrees to this?
All religions refer to it in their own terms but the descriptions and symbolic associations are rarely identical. So there must be false realizations, or false paths even.
>similar to a deja vu
Have you experienced that?

>>17606005
You've been a little uncharitable with my post. What you'll find in Freedom is Suffering, this is inevitable because you are not as big as the universe. Upbringing and early 20's is not a sufficient taster for 'normal life', it is merely the prelude to normality, normality is not something you can go back from because you haven't sampled it until you have real responsibilities, people counting on you to not fuck up. Living for others is what makes life bearable and it has nothing to do with "feeling good" and everything to do with construing the chaos of the universe in terms that are inherently meaningful - inherently, rather than intellectually, because meaning is something you are hardwired for.

>>17605542
Do mushrooms.

>>17606350
>Are there degrees to this?
Yeah. The 8 Limbs of Raja Yoga among other metaphysical and practical systems. I'm not sure that there as false paths when it comes to those so much as there a differences in terminology and I have found that sometimes the supposed differences are just semantics. Other times, it absolutely does indicate a difference in orientation. As long as you continuosly, as a habit to the point of effortlessness, aim toward the highest object of attainment, you will detect this.
"Traditions" like Wicca or Chaos Magick that have no transcendental basis naturally do not even have a system of terms or symbols and metaphysics for that, and an "initiation" to them is just joining the cult and learning their rituals and practices.
If there is an orientation at all toward an awakening then that's a good sign, but you are right and one should proceed skeptically and critically. Many new age gurus claim their goal is enlightenment and obviously are full of shit. Scientology has a rigorous hierarchical system and metaphysics and we know them to be a predatory cult. And Eckhart Tolle and Adiyashanti are actually good. It's just not straight up or down a lot of the time. You have to have your wits about you constantly as this subject is the most labyrinthine of them all.
>Have you experienced that?
I have not attained the grand liberation, no. That would make me a Buddha.
But I have attained suprapersonal, transcendental, and benevolent metaphysical states. They are real.

>>17606119
>Thank you for showing your Christian kindness.
I'm still an anon.

>>17606252
Facts

>>17606393
>That would make me a Buddha.
Are you using the term symbolically or are you a Buddhist?
Do you mind sharing which system you personally follow?

>>17606393
>I have attained suprapersonal, transcendental, and benevolent metaphysical states
What's your take on near-death experiences? Just delusions, or a genuine source of insight on what's to come?

>>17606444
I mean symbolically. I just mean that I am not a fully enlightened or initiated, in the Evolian sense, man. I am not a Buddhist, but I have used things from Buddhism.
I do not follow any system and do not think it's a good idea or possible in complete earnestness in the modern world. What I do is search for the elements of ultimate transcendence wherever I can find them, because it is my interest, but it also strengthens the orientation toward it. The Ur Group used authentic magical text from around the world that had an upward transcendental orientation and put them to use. Crowley synthesized his system through things he picked up from all over the world and texts and rare texts, too. Gurdjieff was initiated in the Middle East into Sufism and then continued to practice things that he discovered himself that benefited the path. These men are a good example of what is possible today.
The superior states that I have experienced were induced through my intention above all, together with magical practice, meditation, mushrooms, Chi gung and energy work, sexual activity, and other peak experiences. For example, I believe that Ernst Junger had a transcendental experience in the war, as war is a peak experience. He steeled himself internally and overcame death with his mind and action. He lived to 102, almost 103. Albert Hoffman, the inventor of LSD, lived as long and incidentally did LSD with Junger. I think that the awakening of subtle forces in these men, as an example, potentially increased their lifespans. Taoist sexual practices have that as a specific goal and it seems to work.
So as you can see, I do not personally believe in using a system, like joining a readymade religion or ideology; that's just larping, especially in today's world of inescapable nihilism. One must find whatever way to Ride the Tiger that they have available to them.

>>17606503
>LSD
Then the use of psychoactives is not always counter-productive or leading to a false sense of realization, it depends on intent? I've become cautious of the new age take on psychedelics according to which they can "enlighten" you.

>>17606532
Anything can happen. It can harm you, it can heal you. Don't trust anyone that says that something is just safe. Nothing is just safe. Everything we do is a risk. Drugs are just a tool. They don't solve your problems, and many people have been ruined by them.

>>17605542
Yes, spirituality is just obscurantism of practical wisdom and observed principles of reality. We participate in some form of reality, there could be much beyond, but if you cannot fully demonstrate and connect it to our world, then it is worthless speculation that distracts us.

>>17605542
>>none of them satisfy me, nor do they seem to provide the answers I'm looking for
What are those?
Many people dive into esoteric ideas expecting them to be exoteric. Basically looking for formulas and detached intellectualisation of spirituality, which is the exact opposite of what spirituality is. You can look at things that are beneath you rationally - details, particles, cause and effect... but as you look higher and higher, the less capable you are of applying analytical thought and at some point seeking for rational answers is futile.
Hope that answer is at least in the general direction of your struggle.

>>17606589
>if you cannot fully demonstrate and connect it to our world, then it is worthless speculation
What do you mean "our world"? We live in reality first and foremost, whatever piece of insight you may have about it is priceless regardless of how it fits into your established worldview.

>>17606035
They lack idleness. All religions require you to do and say and act, and no religion requires you to not do or say or act. Or rather, by not acting, religions say you're part of the problem. It's the whole politics or world problems thing all over again. It's a micro cosm. If you say you don't want to be bothered with say starving children in Africa, bless them, everyone will say you're exactly why the problem persists. By not acting against the problem, you are part of the problem.
And that is what every religion does to your psyche.

That is why the truest way is the Dao

>>17606625
Institutions are rarely built for the purpose of "nothing". Besides, even if there ever was a religion that said you don't need to do anything, then it implicitly suggests things are perfect already and your spirituality is like it needs to be, which obviously doesn't satisfy any inquiry.

>>17606633
Read Dao de jing

>>17606659
I will. But I just want to make it clear that you just asked me to act.

I can sympathize with what you’ve said here, OP. I can second reading Ride the Tiger. I will also say that while I’m not one, at least not yet, closest thing I’ve found to an organizational, institutional path which is satiating has been in Eastern Orthodoxy.

>>17606668
A better wording should have been "I suggest you read Dao de jing" then, and leave it at that. I'm not telling you to act, I'm offering an alternative since acting doesn't seem to vibrate well with your current state. Maybe not acting is the way.
Just so it's out there, the best way to not act is to not do. The best way to not say anything is to keep silent. In this regard, I could have lurked in this thread instead of posting. Or better yet, I could have continued doing what I did before opening this thread, which was laying in bed.
But I think knowledge is something worth pursuing, if you are to pursue anything at all. You as a human can't not act. Even waking up is already acting. Even going to take a poss is acting. Otherwise you can lay down in your own piss and shit and die after a while. Simple as.
Not acting is only possible once you remove all other forms of acting. Your last act should be not acting.
Or rather, if we want to talk about Buddhism, everything is desire. Desire precedes all life and thus all suffering, which is life itself. You can't remove all desire unless you lay down on the ground right in this instant and not move or think or act, not even to hold in your piss and shit. But is that really possible, skillful or virtuous? You start by removing desires. Eventually you will be left with the desire to remove desires. And the desire to remove desires is the last one to go.
It's like slowing down and stopping. To stop before you slow down enough is to crash. Try to stop a speeding car.
The skillful way to stop is to slow down so much that stopping is the only outcome left. Once you stopped, you have achieved enlightenment.

>>17606695
But desire is good. It's what makes us strive to reach the truth.

>>17606719
Never said they aren't good or bad. Even suffering isn't good or bad.
I'll probably say something along the lines of "the desire for truth and knowledge led me to the desire to remove all desires. And once I removed all desires I remove the desire to remove all desires."

Anyway I was talking about action, idleness and used desire just as a point of comparison.

>>17606739
>And once I removed all desires I remove the desire to remove all desires
Yeah, I know. It's one method among many, though. Even the Hindus don't think like this as far as I know

>>17605761
>and as both Jung and Heidegger noted, a Westerner should never wholly take on an Eastern religion,
Neither men were real authorities on anything eastern

>>17607223
And yet they were right

>>17607226
they were wrong

some westerners dont have what it takes to practice an eastern path, and other westerners do and succeed in doing so

>>17607266
Ok "western buddhist"

>>17607266
>what it takes
Eastern religion isn't some kind of superior teaching for the spiritual elite. There's no reason for a westerner to seek spirituality in the east considering everything can already be found in the west regarding philosophy and mysticism.
Most of the time the people who turn to eastern religion are just orientalists who like the aesthetic and who've never even bothered really looking into the western philosophical and theological traditions.
And Jung was right, by the way. Eastern religions aren't for westerners, or more precisely, a westerner cannot just "convert" to an eastern tradition, it's not made for him. Jung said the best thing to do would be to import those traditions and modify them to fit the west, which nobody ever bothered to do since westerners want to feel special with the exotic eastern aesthetic.

>>17607270
No, I’m not. I think Buddhism is largely nonsense and that their metaphysics are all wrong outside of a few schools that are just crypto-Shaivism or crypto-Daoism. And if that weren’t bad enough they infuse everything with some gay progressive moralism.

Westerners have joined other eastern religions like Islam and Hinduism and succeeded.

Bodhinatha Veylanswami (pic related) was born in California in 1942, he is now the current head of a centuries-old traditional Shaivite Nath order, after having that position passed to him by its Indian head. He is a living example that Evola was wrong, among various other figures.

>>17607331
Fuck off guenonigger, go shit up a buddhist thread

>>17607331
>He is a living example that Evola was wrong
Wrong about what?

>>17607321
>Eastern religion isn't some kind of superior teaching for the spiritual elite.
The domain of the (genuine) esoteric is usually for a spiritual elite, wherever it is found
>There's no reason for a westerner to seek spirituality in the east considering everything can already be found in the west regarding philosophy and mysticism.
That’s wrong because eastern metaphysics is neither philosophy which is profane and non-esoteric, nor is it mysticism which is a passive experience which does not involve the grasping of subtle and complex doctrines and studying them under a teacher. It’s totally false that equivalents to all eastern teachings can be found in western thought, and even when they are found, there is often no surviving tradition through which one can be initiated into them
>Most of the time the people who turn to eastern religion are just orientalists who like the aesthetic and who've never even bothered really looking into the western philosophical and theological traditions.
I don’t think this is true, but you want it to be true to validate your beliefs
>And Jung was right, by the way. Eastern religions aren't for westerners, or more precisely, a westerner cannot just "convert" to an eastern tradition, it's not made for him.
Saying that it’s ‘just not made for him’ doesn’t refute the many instances of westerners successfully doing so, by doing so they have refuted the claim that it couldn’t be done.
>Jung said the best thing to do would be to import those traditions and modify them to fit the west, which nobody ever bothered to do since westerners want to feel special with the exotic eastern aesthetic.
Only the people and authorities who belong to the tradition in question are really qualified to judge what kinds of modifications to fit circumstance are permissible and which are not not, anyone else is unqualified to do so.

>>17607377
Okay.

>>17607336
Too late, I’m here to combat your sophistry and nihilism
>>17607341
That finding a genuine initiation was too hard in the modern world because muh Kali Yuga (nevermind that this is what is supposed to make Tantric Shaivism and Shaktism *more* efficient according to them).

>>17607407
>I’m here to combat your sophistry and nihilism
I'm not a buddhist and I think buddhism is retarded but this isn't the thread to have a debate about it
Fuck off

>>17606503
>I do not follow any system
How can you be sure that you're not setting yourself up for failure, or that you're going the right way if you have nobody to tell you what to do and no tradition to fall back on for specific instructions? Why do you think it's a bad idea to join a tradition, couldn't you just discard the things you strongly disagree with?

>>17607414
I was just kidding when I said that, but all the other points I made were totally valid. If the best response you have is “fuck off” then I think it’s clear which of us has the correct position

>>17607520
bump

>>17605542
strongest realization i've had at 31yrs of age is deep depression that hit me in my early/mid 20s and felt like "a veil being lifted off my face"

the only people who seem to understand or accept this when i talk about it(rare now), are those who have also been depressed or in a long (years) state of despair. others just deny what are blatant facts as if they shouldn't matter (because the veil is worn, and necessary - i believe its deliberate blocking out of certain information, like when people turn automatically away from horrifying/scary things. a survival mechanism)

but then again theres no denying that even this, is highlighting certain aspects of life, and backlogging others. there is no way to conceive of anything, except this, so there is no ANSWER, just subjective information picking. basically life is too complex for humans, and we function off limited information, your answer depends on which info is chosen for focus and which is denied.

and no i dont believe we choose those things, i dont think we have much control if any

>>17608024
in my rambling i forgot books.
cioran, ligotti, or any edgelord who spouts obvious depressing things, i would mostly say is truth, and its very obvious truth that most people (in western world) want to deny

basically life is meaningless suffering that ends in death. pretty simple. you'll keep looking for more answers though, endlessly, because you don't want to be depressed

>>17605542
Yes. You’re just impressing yourself with obscurity. You’ve gained no tangible knowledge or skills, just the ability to regurgitate meaningless abstractions. Learn a language or an instrument, read history or fiction, study an art or a science. Name one benefit mysticism gives you in concrete terms that doesn’t amount to “mindset” or “vibe” or some other bullshit nothing

>>17608042
> learn a language or play music
why? nothing is worthwhile. it all decays
"bullshit nothing" is life. yes im an edgelord, and you don't like it. so what, im not here to make the world better, or my life better, im just here and i didnt choose this. if theres a god / simulation creator who made this, to my knowledge hes a maniacal cunt

>>17608024
I had the same thing when i was 20. All my life i sort of "knew" that the world was shit and was going to get shittier, but at that moment it truly hit me. It hit me how i couldnt avoid it, how i couldnt say "oh well" and go along with it. Suddenly it felt like everything was pointless, hopeless and irredeemably tainted.
I have tried many things to get some optimism back, but none of it has worked. I prayed to God, tried several religions, tried mindfullness, but i just feel like im in a sterile counterfeit prison and i cannot escape.

>>17608036
>cioran, ligotti, or any edgelord who spouts obvious depressing things, i would mostly say is truth, and its very obvious truth that most people (in western world) want to deny
You realize you're biased towards them because of your depression right
Read about psychology, neuroscience, cognitive biases etc instead of wasting time with edgelords, their is stuff is not "true" in the slightest

>>17608048
Really? There’s no qualitative difference between living a life full of friends and family, pursuing your goals and honing tangible skills vs living a life devoid of reality and muttering obscure phrases in your bedroom?

This is the problem with mysticism. It’s a painkiller for weak people but it only aggravates the problem. Mystics squeeze out every part of life that makes it valuable. In five years in pursuit of mysticism you’ll have nothing to show for it but a chip on your shoulder. Spend five years studying or practicing anything else and you’ll have mastered it, made friends who share your interest, gained a qualitative betterment of your life.

Did it ever occur to you that without pain, there couldn’t be pleasure? Go ahead, withdraw from the world you whiner, but don’t convince others to too.

>>17608042
>mindset
>some other bullshit nothing
mindset is literally the definition of your subjective reality

>>17608222
I tried the gateway tapes, got zero results.

>>17608119
Not him but I can say looking for the meaning of life and life is full of pain without being depressed. I don’t see the point in studying psychology when so many of them say shit like depression is genetic. No point in worrying about all those things as that is the true path to depression.

>>17608144
Not OP but the difference in those two examples comes from what you VALUE more. A girlfriend will matter to you if you want it to, and it won’t matter if you don’t desire it. We are animals. Our values are arbitrary. You can link studies that show having sex makes you happy or whatever but you would just be confirming people’s cultural beliefs and expectations. So there is no problem with living life as a recluse if you truly desire it, and since our desires are byproducts of culture it would be quite unusual if you came to that conclusion when the dominant culture advocates the family, friends, marriage route. These beliefs are about strength in numbers, sorry but it’s true. Don’t even think about this stuff though, it’s not worth stressing about.

>>17608144
Not him but in 5 years of pursuing physical fitness, agility, strength and mobility I've gained zero friends and zero qualitative betterments of my life. I am today no more happier than I was 5 years ago as a fat guy eating cake and playing warcraft. In fact I am way more "depressed". I hate that word because it reduces the struggle, suffering, dissatisfaction, dukkha to a mere feeling of bads. But the point is, once you've removed the illusion off your senses, no matter what you do short of total mind obliteration, won't get you into a happy or "better" state of self. You get to realize that only your mind is truly real, only your soul is truly aligned, only your body is truly your own (for the unfortunate, not even that). You can't put the cover back on yourself through shallow hobbies and shallower human interactions. If anything, they will only deepen your state of dissatisfaction and suffering by degrees.

>>17608144
This is true that there is no pleasure without pain, because they come from the same source. That is why we are doomed to pain, because we chase pleasure. Not even animals do that. Animals aren’t obsessed with sex. Only humans chase pleasure because we can’t simply just enjoy pleasure when it comes to us, we always want more and more which is what makes life painful and why addictions exist. Pain is nothing to make a virtue out of. It’s all theatre. It’s abuse of our senses for the sake of this story we keep telling ourselves. Why even argue about this though, are you trying to convince OP or convince yourself?

>>17608707
This is just further proof to me that spirituality makes you more depressed. You have been doing this Western buddhist shit for 5+ years and it sounds like it gave you nothing. You worked out because you wanted to change your shape. Since you changed your shape you are done with that goal. Go eat your cake and play WoW. If you look at life in terms of everything being shallow and meaningless, of course you are going to hate it. Accept this is all there is, there’s no depth but you only believe there is depth somewhere else because you can’t accept this is how life is. The fairy tale version of life in your head doesn’t exist. Buddhism has no answers, but go ahead and dull your mind by pretending not to think for six hours

>>17608949
Not him but I think exactly the way you do except I think there's something after death
So I'm stuck in a weird place where religious people think I'm a retarded hedonist for thinking this life is meaningless and atheists/nihilists think I'm delusional for believing this is not all there is to existence

>>17608961
>and atheists/nihilists think I'm delusional for believing this is not all there is to existence
Maybe reddit-tier atheists. Thinking we know it all is pure human arrogance. I'm agnostic and in STEM but even then I believe there's probably something more. Just not manmade christcuck/muslim/buddhist bs.

>>17608750
I assure you that depriving yourself of every possible sensation will not gain you a net happiness. My point is you might lose at a game but do you stop playing? Why are mystics such whiners?

>>17609006
>Just not manmade christcuck/muslim/buddhist bs.
Do you have any particular beliefs, or pure agnosticism?
I've been looking into things like NDEs, which are quite interesting but ultimately unreliable.

>>17608707
>stronger
>fitter
>more agile
>more mobile
This are all qualitative improvements. Why do you feel like you need to obliterate yourself? Why not build yourself up into a person you can respect instead?

>>17609030
Not really, just materialism because its the most practical. I've dabbled in spirituality, magick, idealism, and all that stuff before and found it all to be just bs. I just like pondering about why anything exists at all but I just don't think we as humans are even close to knowing why (which is why I don't trust anything that doesn't have empirical evidence to back it up). NDEs are certainly interesting but it could be just weird brain stuff we don't know about yet.

>>17609089
Fair enough. You never had any interesting experiences with spirituality then?

>>17609021
>>17609089
Try Spinoza and this is coming from someone who dislikes him

>>17605542
>dead end
If you're looking for a destination you were never on the right path to begin with.

>>17605542
Spirituality loses its spark after a while, but for me it's still not as boring as the alternative, so I'm stuck with it. And esotericism is appealing because I don't have to pretend to believe in the dogma of the mainstream religions.

>>17609127
Esotericism still belongs to mainstream religions though. What do you believe in?

>>17609095
Not really (probably that's why I'm so skeptical. The most I've done is creating synchronicity but it might as well be just confirmation bias, when you get too specific (like idk, white triangles with red spots everywhere) instead of something like owls or cats w/e you realize you're just noticing otherwise very common things you wouldn't notice otherwise. (I'm sure there's an experiment related to this on that RAW book but about finding pennies)
>>17609108
Yeah I've read Spinoza and I like him a lot actually. If anything his metaphysics are the ones that make the most sense to me.

>>17607520
You're asking questions to a tattooed pseudointellectual moron. The best thing to do is get daily solitude within natural scenery and read good poetry. Also, one of the few sane paths in Ch'an/Zen when you study it deeply. Doing Shikantaza, preferably while walking in relative solitude in nature, is also good. Don't get obsessed with stuff regarding "proper Lotus posture". It's just stuff dumb autists, that tatooed fag you're debating, push for.

>>17609133
I don't even know. Just polytheism without believing Jesus was the Son of God or Muhammad was the final prophet or whatever. I don't understand how someone like Guenon was able to convert to Islam and pretend the Quran was more special than anything else

>>17609199
>The best thing to do is get daily solitude within natural scenery and read good poetry.
How is that going to help spiritual realization?

>>17609223
It opens the mind to infinity by letting understanding breakdown and let itself reform. Poetry that is borne from solitude resembles an explosions of meaning, which can help glimpse infinity.

>>17609208
I guess you can go the schizo way and say stuff like Christ himself being a metaphor for the divine spark or whatever, so it allows you to rationalize scripture without believing in it literally
Still seems unnecessary though

>>17607331
>islam
>eastern

>>17609021
I never said depraving yourself will get you anywhere special but neither will indulging. So do whatever you want. Telling people there is A path and if you don’t follow THAT path you will be miserable is nonsense. Everyone is different and wants something different. What worked for you won’t work for him

>>17605542
stop trying to be "satisfied" by it

>>17605590
>I'm aware I'll never know this

Seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

>>17609054
I am the person that I respect. I am the only person that I respect. I fact I am the only person that I know and I can't hate that person. I can only respect that person and empathize with his suffering. But ultimately, being:
>stronger
>fitter
>more agile
>more mobile
as opposed to:
>not strong
>not fit
>not agile
>not mobile
leads to nothing. As per usual. The body is temporary. The body is material prison made flesh. The body is as broken as the entire universe is. Limited and made OF suffering, not for suffering. For the body eat, the body must starve. You OWN the body and the body moves as much as the chain attached to your leg would allow. No more. Total obliteration is the only way to escape. And no action and no desire is the only way to exist until total obliteration occurs.
Ok, leaving all the doomer gobledygook aside (I can't express myself except in vague gobledygook), the reason for keeping and maintaining a healthy body is because it is a duty. You are given this body and this body only. Nothing else. The body is like a 3-dimensional shadow of your higher dimensional self, such as when you would cast a 2-dimensional shadow of your 3-dimensional body. To keep your body in health does not lead to happiness or a better life, but it does lead to a more skillful approach towards the ultimate goal of inaction. Less dependency, not more, always be mindful of that. You ought to be free moving and free of restrictions, free of conditions and free of impairments.
That's what let me follow the path of physical betterment, even if I did not know it when I started.

>>17610074
Have you died yet? No?
Then you don't know what comes after death.

>>17605542
no, spirituality is the only escape

>>17606310
Are new age practices like "astral projection" potentially dangerous? I've read accounts of people getting demon-raped before lol

>>17610958
>I've read accounts of people getting demon-raped before lol
source?

>>17610958
Yes, they are dangerous. Just do mindfulness meditations. If you want to go further, then there's other posts itt for that.