/lit/ - Literature

>>17542714
Euripides’ tragedies were inferior to those of Aeschylus and Sophocles due to the influence of Socrates on him

>>17542714
What a cringelord.

>>17542911
Actually he meant Socrates influenced Euripides because Euripides was an inferior tragedian to the others (which is wrong: Euripides was a superior tragedian to Sophocles)

>>17542714
Nietzsche digs the tragic age of Greeks that was before Athenians. Ionian enlightenment, homeric and shit. For him the post-platonic greece the lack vehrnichtslust that made early greek culture superior

>>17543016
That's not before Athenians

why the fuck does he write like a woman? feel like im reading some carol ann duffy tier shit here

>if only i had spent more time resenting socrates

>>17543016
>vehrnichtslust
wha?

>>17542714
I love how he calls socrates a nigger every chance he gets lmao

>>17543810
You know he was a seething virgin.

>>17543761
Kaufmann translation is very nice, but I heard his German prose was beautiful

>>17542714
>socrateeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees i know not what to say before yaldabaooooooth heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>17543962
nice pic

>>17543090
Sure is if we’re talking bout classical athens

>>17542714
Socrates' daemon aka his conscience influenced tragedy and ruined Greek culture in the end.

>>17543985
No it's not retard, Aeschylus and Sophocles were part of classical Athens

>>17543996
>Socrates' daemon aka his conscience

>>17544008
It was a mystical experience of the conscience.

>>17544005
Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks (German: Philosophie im tragischen Zeitalter der Griechen) is an incomplete book by Friedrich Nietzsche. He had a clean copy made from his notes with the intention of publication. The notes were written around 1873. In it he discussed five Greek philosophers from the sixth and fifth centuries BC. They are Thales, Anaximander, Heraclitus, Parmenides, and Anaxagoras. He had, at one time, intended to include Democritus, Empedocles, and Socrates. The book ends abruptly after the discussion of Anaxagoras's cosmogony.

>>17544022
OP's quote is from the birth of tragedy, and tragedy was born in Athens. Why are you quoting a random passage from a different book?

>>17544012
It can't be reduced to the conscience bro.

What's this faggots problem?

>>17544300
It can be deduced as a mystical experience of it, though.

>>17544324
The Daimon is a much more complex topic in Greek religion and was far more hallucinogenic and strange than you’re crediting it with. A mystical abstraction experience of himself United to his absolute ideal is close enough for the modern but this removes all of the literal and metaphysical weight it would have had for Socrates and other Greeks.

>>17544330
I'm not talking about it in Greek religion, I'm talking about Socrates only.

>>17544338
But for Socrates it is in Greek religion. Nevertheless even just called an intuition, it is not just a conscience.

>>17544349
Again, I'm not saying it's "just a conscience." Socrates had a MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE regarding his conscience, subconsciously inflating it to the level of the divine. Socrates then influenced other Greeks with his sense of the Greek daemon, and Nietzsche considers this to have been a negative for Greek culture.

>>17543822
He was a mad genius. Good luck connecting with the illogical sex with that kind of brain lol

>>17542714
Rationalism

>>17544148
The fuck you on about tragedy? Op asks explanation about Nietzsche’s remark about the decline of Dionysian specimen and the rise of socratic thinking in the Greek culture. To which i reply netshe digs pre-platonics, in his own words the Greeks of the tragic age. Because he thinks the presence of dionysian frenzy and lust for destruction is vital fuel for the birth of superior, healthy culture while the socratic specimen leads to rot and decay

>>17544379
Nothing good comes of neetshe. Literally zero contribution to anything useful.

>>17544452
Seethe more, Xtian.

>>17543772
He loved Socrates. Being a victim of his polemics does not mean nietzsche resented him.

>>17544459
kierkegaards theory of tragedy manages to be far more thought provoking and interesting that neetchers in about 1/5 of the pages. christchads won again

>>17544509
>far more thought provoking and interesting
To a retarded xtian sure.

>implying nietzsche wasn't a proto-fascist

>>17544527
you havent read it so how would you know?
https://journals.oregondigital.org/index.php/konturen/article/view/3673/3427
good analysis of it here. even if youre not an "xtian" its superiority to the birth of tragedy should be evident since kierkegaard actually attempts to get at the reoccurrent core of tragedy and explain its variations without pages of unsubstantiated austistic sperging like in the birth of tragedy

>>17544557
His sense of tragedy is as weak as his ontology and it's irrelevant to the earlier tragedians. Nietzsche has the better analysis of Greek tragedy.

>>17543996
Fucking retards

>>17544464
Yeah he spent his life attacking Socrates, calling him an ugly pleb, and blaming him for the decline of the world because he loved him.
Nice fucking cope.

>>17544574
do we dare actually discuss this instead of just saying the other is shit?
reasons I like Kierkegaards theory
>explains underdeveloped subjectivity in ancient drama and how this fed into the "brute fact" of uncertainty about guilt and free will. it merges hegel and aristotles ideas about a characters will being important in creating their fate but modifies this to also explain the presence of fate and makes the tragic question truly a tragic one "am I in control of what I want? to what extent was this my fault?". this has been corroborated by further research in the modern day which has uncovered more clearly the ritual nature of tragedy and its role of problematising religious grief but offering consolation to questions human reason cant answer. kierkegaard explains the religious context for tragedy and its reccurrent interest, it always poses a question we cant answer. this also explains the modern shift in tragedy with more developed subjectivity, characters no longer exist within unquestioned ethical substances so free will and guilt become a possible uncertainity. fundamentally the same question is agonised over but there is even more anxiety and less of a soothing consolation.

as opposed to
>affirming THIS life, which is basically repudiated by modern scholarship which has linked dionysus to the afterlife and tragedy to greek religion. the looking into the abyss is not an open question to nietzche but something definitively overcome, which is not tragic. nihilism in his sense was also not developed because subjectivity was not developed, the greeks identified wholly with ethical substances and had no sense of a meaningless world. if you actually read greek tragedy the message is that the gods wider perspective is always correct and will always end conflict eventually. it does not joy in the suffering of life, it offers half answers to console while not denying grief. nietzche is projecting in a fuckhuge way. his apollonian dionysian divide is interesting, not as evident in the text as kierks lyric and epic divide though. again, modern scholarship supports kierkegaard as the chorus has been linked to the contemporary polis and as a way for them to offer prayers and situate their values in the context of the drama. it is an epic and ethical element as opposed to the lyrical subjectivity of characters. long story short niet projects and modern research supports kierkegaard

>>17543016
Not true because Nietzsche said Homer destroyed art and Greece.

>>17544675
Fucking idiot

>>17544684
>do we dare actually discuss this instead of just saying the other is shit?
Nah, I'm just going to leave this here for you to read:

https://intotherose-garden.com/2014/04/18/the-genius-of-nietzsche-and-kierkegaard-comparing-their-contribution-to-philosophy/

Maybe instead of always trying to "one up" Nietzsche and other authors you don't like, you should first reach a sufficient understanding of them.

>And there you might see him, Aristophanes, as you describe, just as he is in the streets of Athens, stalking like a pelican, and rolling his eyes, calmly contemplating enemies as well as friends, and making very intelligible to anybody, even from a distance, that whoever attacked him would be likely to meet with a stout resistance; and in this way he and his companion escaped—for this is the sort of man who is never touched in war.

>>17544748
>first day of war
>falls off horse

>>17544742
no argument then and no attempt to adress anything I said. 123... concession accepted!

>>17544701
So explain how love is really what you despise.

>>17544773
>no argument then
It's in the article and in my post.

>>17544800
I went out of my way to put what id read into a condensed form in my own words. I'll read the article, but I can see it already doesnt have anything to do with tragedy. Although the cases with a lot of these pieces comparing the two usually just end in "kierkegaard worse because he christian and me no like that". If its the case here I will be returning to seethe at you. Either way my point is that I think kierkegaards tragic theory is far better, far more evident in the texts and has been vindicated by modern scholarship on the subject. Im not a nietzche hater, I just think the birth of tragedy is his worst work

>>17544828
>I'll read the article, but I can see it already doesnt have anything to do with tragedy.
It has to do with their ontological differences which bleeds into their theories on tragedy.

>Either way my point is that I think kierkegaards tragic theory is far better, far more evident in the texts and has been vindicated by modern scholarship on the subject.
I find Nietzsche's ontology to be much greater in scope and thus his theory on tragedy is as well. Kierkegaard's ontology resembles Kant's more than Nietzsche's, the latter of which completely rejected Kantian metaphysics and opened up a brand new set of questions for philosophy and a much more holistic mode of thought in general.

>>17544890
>completely rejected Kantian
Lol

>>17544748
Based

>>17546170
>didn't finish reading Nietzsche

That he's a cringe edgelord.

Why do people consider Euripides superior to Sophocles again?

>>17542965
Euripides a tranny

>>17547995
Sophocles was an establishment shill who was churning out formulaic commercial garbage for Athens. Euripides had a soul.

>>17548524
What establishment did he shill?

Why do the trannies love Nietzsche so much?

>>17549743
They think he was a pozzed liberal like they are, since they were taught that in college by their Jewish professors.

>>17549743
>Nietzsche wasn't actually a nazi and he hated anti-semites, wow we're literally the same!

>translating daimon as demon
ngmi

>this guy came up with the idea that the good is not the same as the beautiful
Really makes you think...

>>17547995
Basically Sophocles perfected the form, and in his wake Euripides made more sophisticated, nuanced variations, which tend to appeal more to literary critics.

The truth is that Aeschylos was the most sublime, he was three times a war hero and a great patriot, and his work is a product of a purer, more religiously devout spirit.

>>17550030
>this guy came up with the idea that the good is not the same as the beautiful
If you need more evidence, consider women

>>17550030
Nice cope.
>>17544748
This will always be beautiful. The greatest men in Greece literally said Socrates was a beautiful man.
Nietzsche is still seething.

>>17542714
>merely clever

>>17542714
>writes best dionysian play
>CONSEQUENTLY EURIPIDES DID NOT UNDERSTAND DIONYSUS

>>17549743
Where do they do that?

>>17550297
Also the only satyr play we have is from Euripides kek Nietzsche was born insane

oh god please not SOCRATES

>>17544148
Tragedy was born in Ancient Egypt.

Haven't you read the tragedy of Osiris?

They tell you to go back to the Greeks

No.

Go back to the Egyptians.

>>17542714
He's probably under the influence of Schlegelian analysis of Greek drama. The Schelgel brothers had the gall to argue that Euripides represented a decline of Greek drama, as if they understood Greek tragedy better than the Greek themselves. Germans tend to do that kind of stuff. They did the same with Shakespeare, even claiming that he was the German national poet.

>>17543962
do squid have eyelids?

>>17542714
Socrates represents, to Nietzsche, a point in time when people stopped viewing the world through a mythical lense (where art was a product of interaction between Dionysos' ecstatic euphoria, and Apollo's regulated and measured form).
Due to Socrates, people started to view the world through more of a rationalistic, anti-mythical lense. Again, according to Nietzsche, anyway.
Also, keep in mind that the whole title of the book is "The birth of tragedy from the spirit of music".

>>17550978
Birth of Tragedy is an interesting book and everyone should read it, but I don't think it's very rigorous with regard to what the Greeks actually believed. It's not that surprising that Nietzsche didn't last in academia.

>>17550877
And Nietzsche either didn't read the Symposium or seethed because of it. Socrates was a literal satyr.

>>17550971
>tragedy of Osiris?
No such thing

>>17551019
What's the point of this comment? You didn't add anything to the post you were replying to.

>>17550978
So Nietzsche just copied Schopenhauer, Schelgel, Schelling, and Wagner and put together some frankensteinan pseud "philosophy"

>>17542714
based

>>17551834
Yeah he was a larper with no original ideas.

Nietzsche would've been a gigantic antisemit if he lived in the 20th century. Guaranteed Nazi party high official

Edgelord.

>>17544748
>And with regard to Aristophanes — that transfiguring, complementary genius, for whose sake one PARDONS all Hellenism for having existed, provided one has understood in its full profundity ALL that there requires pardon and transfiguration; there is nothing that has caused me to meditate more on PLATO’S secrecy and sphinx-like nature, than the happily preserved petit fait that under the pillow of his death-bed there was found no “Bible,” nor anything Egyptian, Pythagorean, or Platonic — but a book of Aristophanes. How could even Plato have endured life — a Greek life which he repudiated — without an Aristophanes!
Neetch understood.

>Elements of revenge.—The word “revenge” is said so quickly, it almost seems as if it could not contain more than one root concept and feeling. And so people are still trying to find this root—just as our economists still have not got tired of smelling such a unity in the word “value” and of looking for the original root concept of value. As if all words were not pockets into which now this and now that has been put, and now many things at once!
Wittgenstein's main contribution in Philosophical Investigation was already stated by Nietzsche better one century before

> Those qualities may even be dangerous and frightful in a special degree in his case; and perhaps the young Stock-Exchange Jew is in general the most repulsive invention of the human species.

>>17543761
Maybe Duffy read the Kaufman translations of Nietzsche and decided she wanted to write like that? I dunno

>>17543996
Doesn't the daemon only ever prohibit? It never advocates nor proposes from what I remember. One of my profs claimed that because of this, the consensus is that Socrates' daemon can't be reduced to his conscience.

>>17554814
>the consensus

>>17554834
>le ebin basedjack maymay
How shall I ever recover?

>>17542714
Apollo = civilization
Dionysus = primal nature
Socrates = decadence

Basically, I think Nietzsche is saying that Euripides' demon was the intellectual decadence that brought down Greek culture from its heights. Greeks used to understand the balance of light and dark through the Apollonian/Dionysian dichotomy. With Socrates and whatnot, all that was thrown into question. This began the steady slow decline of Greek civilization by Nietzsche's reckoning.

>>17554913
>Socrates = decadence
The opposite

>>17554932
Are you saying it's the opposite in truth or the opposite by Nietzsche's reckoning?

>>17555030
By Nietzsche's reckoning. He didn't think Socrates brought decadence at all, he thought he was too restrictive and denying both Dionysus and Apollo.

It's obviously wrong in reality as well because sophists brought decadence and Socrates fought it, but Nietzsche got everything wrong in reality, so that doesn't really matter.

>>17543761
Schizos have strong feminine identification

>>17555098
He really was a pseud, wasn't he

>>17542714
Euripedes pants
You mender these pants.
Mama Mia!

>>17555205
Not at all, he was just very young when he wrote the birth of tragedy (27 or 28 I forgot) and he wasn't a historian.

>>17555227
Why do so many people fawn over that work then? Or did I get the wrong impression?

>>17555230
It's a good work. It's not fleshed out, but it shows glimpses of the essence of his thought that he will later furnish. It's also a very important topic that was very much overlooked (that of the anthropology of Greek tragedy), and it established him as a controversial thinker. But I don't think people in general care that much about this work e.g. it has a relatively low rating and low number of ratings on goodreads and people generally don't get it.

>>17555275
I meant people on /lit/, I don't browse goodreads so I wouldn't know when it comes to that.

>>17555305
I don't think /lit/ likes it either. There was a thread about this just a few days ago and this book wasn't mentioned much >>17544678

>>17554834
this gif looks kinda like basedman is banging a girl (or basedboy?) with sticks for legs
>ywn

>>17555227
kek whenever anyone says the opposite neetchfags are all MUH PHILOLOGIST THO. fucking cringe faggots.

>>17543810
>I love how he calls socrates a nigger every chance he gets lmao
Nietzche is absolutely brutal.

He makes me Kek a lot.

>>17550144
>If you need more evidence, consider women
This.

>>17544364
You're still saying his mystical experience just goes back to his conscience, IT'S NOT JUST THE CONSCIENCE YOU FUCKING NIGGER ENOUGH WITH THE WORD GAMES.

>>17556619
Lmao

>>17556619
It is just his conscience though

>>17543962
I laughed

Woah

>>17556380
that's just the study of language

What would Nietzsche think of Girard's analyses on Sophocles and Euripides?

>>17559928
Who cares

>>17542714
Was Nietzsche even knighted?

>>17559928
>Girard's analyses on Sophocles and Euripides
What does he say?

>>17559044
And it's why Nietsche understood the Greeks and you don't.

>>17563297
i understand them better than you and nietzsche

>>17543761
Lou Andreas-Salomé, who knew Nietzsche very well, claimed that he had proposed to her (according to her, she refused him) and that there was something feminine in Nietzsche's "spiritual nature". According to her, Nietzsche considered genius to be a feminine genius.

>>17563311
Nietzsche was a professor of philology. The youngest ever.
He understood the Greeks likely better than anyone.