/lit/ - Literature

Social contract and (more basic and primitively) the golden rule.

>>17384394
Yes by deontologists.

Permitted by whom?

It's kind of a brainlet take, but not.

>>17384401
Ultimate inconsequence

>>17384399
What stops you from breaking social contract?

>>17384394
Zizek has a good critique. Jihadists flying planes into the WTC means "If I am the agent of "God," everything is permitted, even the murder of innocents."

He doesn't just pick on the religious, he says the communist belief that they are the agents of historical materialism is the same. "Everything is permitted" when you think you somehow act in service of the metaphysical end of reality, and people in general should never have the hubris to claim that.

>>17384408
Police

>>17384394
It can't be refuted because "everything is permitted" is a completely loaded, practically undefinable, statement.

>>17384413
What if you live in a failed state like Somalia?

>>17384408
The golden rule. What comes around goes around. It's basic stuff.

>>17384413
>tfw third worlder
Yeah nah lmao

>>17384394
many time, by common sense

>>17384399
who gives a shit about these?
>>17384394
no, he's correct despite the fact that Christians simply repeating what he stated get maligned by the usual subhumans

>>17384394
>everything is permitted
Clearly not. I can't just jump and fly to the moon, dumbass.

>>17384435
>who gives a shit about these?

Everyone. Even you adhere to it, though you pretend you don't.

>>17384412
This is retarded. Hitting the strategic asset of the enemy is done immensely by secularists, as Bin Laden said you can bomb our pharmaceutical factories but your banks are sacred?

>>17384394
That's a mistranslation. The actual quote is "without immortality everything is permitted".

>>17384427
Golden rule mostly provides consequence (which is mostly attributed to misfortune), it hardly prevents any action.

>>17384439
Of course that's permitted you retarded redditor

always find it funny how a simple love of humanity is not enough morality for christfags

>>17384462
Nonsense. People refrain from doing countless things because they know of the consequences.

>>17384399
people break the social contract all the time, and some even get away with it due to their status and/or political power

>>17384472
Are you blind or are you ignoring how some people make success out of exploiting others?

>>17384472
Muslim here but honestly no one is actually a humanist. People are either selfish free radicals, or loyal to a group.

>>17384490
they still do that if religious retard.

>>17384477
I think you're missing the point. People who believe in God murder. Just because people do things that are supposedly "not permitted" doesn't mean that they are permitted.

>>17384498
If they go against christian values they are not christian you dimwit

>>17384510
That is not what christians believe btw other than hypercalvinists.

>>17384510
This is the same logic used by communists

>>17384394
>there is no god.... because theres no god

>>17384394
hackstoevsky

>>17384394
first of all this is a quote from Ivan in Brothers Karamazov in an article he wrote, not Dostoevsky himself, though he did instill certain characters with his own quotes (e.g. Shatov in Demons)
But the main point, and indeed one of the central issues in BK is the comparison between human and divine justice. Dmitrii, for example, is convicted of a crime he didn't commit, yet he feels guilt nonetheless for - wanting - Fyodor dead. Ivan, likewise, feels guilt due to having influenced the true murdered, Smerdyakov, with the philosophical arguments which would in theory "allow" for murder, and for "allowing" Smer to kill Fyodor by leaving for Moscow in a critical moment. Smer himself feels this overwhelming guilt, despite not being the one taken to court, and hangs himself.
Dosto correctly creates a number of "atheist" characters who are still highly influenced by Christian teachings in their ways of thinking. Kirillov for example, is an atheist who is described as one of the highest disciples of God shortly before his suicide by Pyotr. That is also why Dmitrii, Ivan and Smer cannot escape divine justice, as God's judgment, manifested into their conscience, still hounds them regardless of their degree of involvement with the crime, simply for wanting the crime to happen.
A true atheist, which embodies the quote in the OP is Svidrigailov in C&P. He is one who is completely unaffected by the boundaries of morality and repeatedly gets away with heinous crimes (specifically, rape) without them impacting his psyche in any way - he even revels in this. The point is that a man who has completely rescinded God and any traces of christian morality has only human justice to "deal with", and that if he can elude the latter, then he can substantially do whatever he wants. Just think of the Epsteins or Savilles of the world. Rich and powerful, they kept going with their abhorrent acts because they had completely cut off God from their souls and felt that human justice was the only entity capable of stopping them, and since they were powerful and wealthy, they kept going until they got caught or died.

>>17384566
this
more than a 100 years later Dosto still understands atheists better than atheists understand themselves

>>17384566
excellent post

>>17384442
no, nobody does.
People are simply afraid of God.
And they are right to be afraid.
You are too, so you edge your bets.
You won't fool him :)

>>17384394
>>17384566
Atheist here:

Both these posts are absolutely correct.

>>17384394
To have permission, you first must have someone with the authority to grant it. The statement is contradictory.

>>17384566
>Just think of the Epsteins or Savilles of the world.
That character has something in common with Svidrigailov, and it's not just the pedophilia.

>>17384566
based dosto scholar

>>17384566
>A true atheist
This is why Dostoevsky is a shit writer and why his fans are obnoxious.
But don't mind me, keep drooling over the random babbling of an idiot who got paid per page lmao

>>17384736
go back to r/atheism kiddo

>>17384746
I'm not even an atheist

>>17384755
Just go back then

>>17384566
>Dosto correctly creates a number of "atheist" characters who are still highly influenced by Christian teachings in their ways of thinking.
this

>>17384462
The same is true of G*d.

>>17384717
based rapist

replace God with any form of authority. in this context, that's what God is

I'm not reading this whole thread, but there's an argument to be made that ethics have value as a social construct, even without supernaturally ordered morality.

>>17384408
Ostracization, therefore exposure to nature, therefore danger and lack of security.

>>17384394
this stupid pederast didn't read bible carefully. stop fetishizing this dumb faggot. dostoyevskiy was moron.

>>17384566
serious question, why are atheists nowadays so fucking boring
in dosto's books as well as other writers like turgenev they are fairly well versed in the Bible, highly intelligent, and offer very insightful critiques of christianity and religion as a whole
nowadays self identified "atheists" are almost always complete idiots that have never read the Bible and keep repeating middle school tier talking points
im not even a christian btw, I'm just baffled at the absolute fucking state of atheism today

>>17384887
>tripfag
you know where your opinion goes, right?

>>17384869
I'll point out that this quote may be falsely attributed, and even if real, he may have been trying to articulate exactly this.

>>17384400
Based Kantbro

>>17384566
>morality cannot exist outside of religion
that's why religiouscucks are retarded
you faggots have to write fucking pages to rationalize your narrow minded understanding of morality
1 morality is a result of conscientiousness and empathy
2 christianity and judaism claimed the morality that existed before them

>>17384967
I think listening to richard dawkins is more in your league

>>17384967
conscentiousness and empathy based on what

>>17384888
>>17384967
case in point

yes, laws refute him

>>17385048
imagine being this retarded

>>17384939
Kant's entire ethical system was based on the existence of God you fucking moron lmfao

>>17384967
>you faggots have to write fucking pages to rationalize your narrow minded understanding of morality
no self awareness whatsoever
go back

>>17385020
Empathy exists as an evolutionary adaptation. Sure, human interaction nurtures or kills it, but it's biologically based.

>>17385066
yeah, you
god might not be real but in the case that he isn't people still need a god and that god is law/lawmakers/leaders and stuff

>>17384939
look up summum bonum you fucking dolt

>>17385093
lemme guess you watched this shit
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b-bijO3uEw
refer to this >>17384566 you peabrain

>>17385093
>no u
pathetic

>>17385104
no I didn't watch that

>>17384423
>loaded
Loaded in what way?
>practically undefinable
Thats just wrong.

>>17384394
wrong

if it had not been for religion fuckery the world today would be a much better place

>>17385278
incel

>>17384888
I don't understand why this is baffling at all. It's not just atheists. Most Christians are every bit as uneducated and couldn't defend their beliefs to save their lives.

>>17384394
It hasn't, nor will it ever be.

>>17384413
so a fallible authority figure as opposed to a perceived infallible one.

despite the possibility of god, everything is permitted

>>17384394
He copied (literally) that from De Sade who was literally a coomer, retroactively refuted by coom

>>17384423
Midwit alert

>>17384394
Without God, nothing is permitted.

>>17384472
That lofty love is easily compromised even in the best of us. Kind of how people are vehemently anti-violence until they get upset and turn violent.

>>17385464
>even in the best of us
then perhaps you aren't "the best of us"

>>17384408
The deliberate militarization of the American police force. As recognized by Timothy McVeigh (PBUH).

>>17384394
Everything is permitted, regardless of God.

>>17384472
Intention =! actual state of the heart. Most people have good intentions and believe themselves to be good people, but at the end of the day act selfishly, pridefully, deceitfully, lustfully, greedily, wrathfully, with envy, etc. Christianity understands this distinction, and that the real problem of man is not his intention but the inherent fuckedupness of his nature.
>”For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.”

>>17384408
>What stops you from breaking social contract?
Equally what stops you from sinning against God, just because you can break rules, doesnt mean they dont exist.

>>17384394
Yes.

>>17384394
>If there is no God, everything is permitted.
In truth its the opposite, if there is no God, you could say for example that only reality exist, but reality has bounderies, consequences to actions, groups and collectives who can force society to accept laws, laws of nature.

Without God cannibalism can still cause diseases to spread more easily, incest will cause the genetic health of a population to go down, murder and theft will go against the will of society etc

Now you are free to go against nature and society, but since you are an inherent part of both of these things, it would be pointless and selfdefeating.

On the other hand, if there is a God outside of reality and he has a higher truth, then that truth does not need to apply within the framework of the laws of nature.

Cannibalism, incest, murder, etc could all be seen as good, by a being not bound by the laws of nature or society. In fact, such a being could say that not wearing a hat on sundays is a mortal sin, etc

The idea of God destroys our state within nature and society and will often lead to morality that is unnatural or nonsensicle.

>>17384888
The first batch of atheists where highly intelligent and original freethinkers, what follows are conformists.

>>17385661
>The idea of God destroys our state within nature and society and will often lead to morality that is unnatural or nonsensicle.
That is mere abstraction with no basis on reality.

>>17385688
>That is mere abstraction with no basis on reality.
Explain, I dont understand what you are trying to say.

>>17384510
If they go against humanist values they are not humanists you dimwit

>>17385696
That what you say does not play out that way in reality. In reality, time and time again Christianity has proven to turn absolute scoundrels into genuinely decent people. I know a few, and their example is a big part of what convinced me.

>>17384449
It's not

>>17385718
>In reality, time and time again Christianity has proven to turn absolute scoundrels into genuinely decent people
Your idea of a decent people no doubt involves racemixing, being mediocre and not involving yourself with politic and being a passive tool for other people to use?

>>17385661
>redditspacing
>is retarded
checks out

>>17385725
You don’t understand Christianity or know what it is about anon. I cannot argue with you in good faith.

>>17384888
what anon >>17385675 said
the atheists of today would have been the christians of yesterday, for them it might as well been a swap from a less popular to a more popular religion

>>17385639
>ayn rand
no

>>17385757
>checks out
Not an argument.

>>17385760
>You don’t understand Christianity or know what it is about anon. I cannot argue with you in good faith.
I was right wasnt I. Christianity is not moral.

Thats why these people mix their race and act far too passive when someone threatens them.

>>17384394
God is and everything is permitted anyway. We inhabit the stage of our creation that is necessary for free spiritual agents that came out of nothingness, but at the same time our rational agency is broken as is this cosmos - so there's hope in afterlife, maybe even for all if we follow the story of Christianity.

>>17385786
it's all you're going to get since you're a retarded redditor

>>17385823
>it's all you're going to get since you're a retarded redditor
Not an argument.

>>17385823
Based

>>17384888
>nowadays self identified "atheists" are almost always complete idiots that have never read the Bible and keep repeating middle school tier talking points

Why would you associate with or read the bible as an atheist? It is clearly not important enough to matter to them. Makes absolutely no sense.

>>17385848
What a stupid statement, someone does not have to agree with a text to read it.

>>17385848
>bro you don't need to read the Bible to refute it lol
retard

>>17385862
If you consider the Bible important enough to read, that is.

>>17385875
>If you consider the Bible important enough to read, that is.
Dam, the Bible has been a major influence on Western culture, I am on lit am I not?

>>17385871
Why would you need to refute the Bible? Does that mean you also have to refute the Talmud and the Quran, or any other written Gospel?

>>17385885
Yes it has. So have been many other books. If you want to become a literary scholar it is advisable to read it. Otherwise there is little reason for it.

>>17385875
literally one of the most if not the most important book in world literature but ok
keep being a brainlet

>>17385890
Stop being disingenuous. The Talmud and the Quran are alien to our culture. The Bible is not.

>>17385890
if you're going to critique the Bible then you can't expect to be taken seriously if you haven't read it

>>17384394
>Has this ever been refuted?
No.

I’m convinced that atheist moralism is a mental illness. They really don’t even think through the things they say.

>>17385905
You will be fine without having read it. I have read large parts of it. The only important part of it is to understand references in other Western texts. Not sure why the Christian Larpers here delude themselves into thinking it is absolutely essential. That is just a self-enforcing cycle.

>>17385801
Neither the Church nor scripture affirms this view. You made this up yourself.

>>17384888
>in dosto's books as well as other writers like turgenev they are fairly well versed in the Bible, highly intelligent, and offer very insightful critiques of christianity and religion as a whole
“Why are literary characters not like reall life?”

>>17385912
Yes if you care about critiquing the bible, that is. If it is just another book to you, why does it matter? That is the case for many atheists. Why should they need to refute every single religious pamphlet ever written?

>>17385941
Are you Orthodox? There's no Church outside of that. Read Gregory of Nyssa. Creation ex-nihilo and the theology behind it is laid out in the Fathers.
You'll be able to find in them the language about gnomic will, about the imperfect reason, they worked up from the works of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite and Neoplatonism.
You'll often hear saints that say it's impossible for God to go against your will and so on, He only works with your acceptance.

>>17385959
I’m Catholic.
> You'll often hear saints that say it's impossible for God to go against your will and so on, He only works with your acceptance.
No. I do not often hear saints say that. Name one and cite them.

>>17385964
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophrony_(Sakharov)
On top of my head.

But man I haven't read Aquinas either so I expect you to be ignorant like I am about your communion.

>>17384888
Those who loudly call themselves “atheists” didn't actually came to logical conclusion that some beliefs are wrong. They mostly believe in some new age retold mix of Nietzshe for dummies, and most ideologized 19th century reductionist materialism pamphlets, which is not unexpected, as most of modern mass schooling systems are based on 19th century ideas, and they still can be found in pop-sci books.

>>17385938
This.
Also why do religious fasgs not read basic science, mathematics, logic, astronomy, biology and chemistry then? Do you feel that having read a single book written 2500 years ago is more important and sufficient? Someone who is not religious (will not say atheist, because it has become associated with pretentiousness among our generation) does not feel the need to read the bible. He knows that logic is what there is. Fables and Wonders written thousands years ago by a group of people just don`t suffice

he managed to walk through the door of nihilist existence, and the really tripped on the doorstep

No, because it’s the truth.
The Brothers Karamazov made me more open minded to the both the possibility and the necessity of a god.
Fuck, I love Dostoevsky. I can’t believe I’ll never read his major works for the first time ever again

>>17384408
Fear, anxiety, survivability. Social manipulations of a man created to enslave him.

>>17386463
Isaac Newton was a christian and more of a scientist than you and 99,999999% of atheists could ever be

>>17386463
what point are you even trying to make here you retarded esl

>>17384394
God can allow us to overcome morality that was hard-wired into our brains, the same way fear of punishment from God can overcome our desire to commit an act of evil.

>>17387249
>>17387266
whatever lol
Anyway religion is unarguably the most laughable way of cope

>>17384408
What stops you from breaking god's law?

>>17384446
You don't get the point. If you believe god is on your side, there are no restrictions on how far you can permit yourself to go. Beheadings of infidels, burning at the stake, medieval tortures. Hence Zizek's inversion, "If there is a God everything is permitted."

>>17387774
keep coping with your ignorance you complete and utter retard
im not even religious btw

>>17384408
The human inside of me

>>17384566
>The point is that a man who has completely rescinded God and any traces of christian morality has only human justice to "deal with", and that if he can elude the latter, then he can substantially do whatever he wants.
This is only true for psychopaths.

>>17385634
>>17387778
I think the point of the question is to highlight what is it that compels someone to not do evil. Per social contract, its only fear of retaliation or conditioning by people more powerful than you. If you had a ring of invisibility, you could wreak all your sinful wishes without reprimand assuming social contract was your only bind. With God upholding virtue, you are always under scrutiny, and always held to judgement in the end - good and evil gain meaning because it becomes effectively objective rather than a universal mind game.

You can think of God as being the greatest leviathan, who acts with perfect mercy and judgement, and is therefore the ultimate arbiter of good and evil.

>>17385082
No it wasn't, he was religious and it played a large part in his life and thought the existence of God was potentially implied from morality and happiness. However, he explicitly tried to ground his philosophy in reasons independent of theology and god.

>>17385096
other way around

>>17384394
>If there is no God, everything is permitted.
>Everything isn't permitted.
>There is a God.

>>17384394
Based Dosty keeps btfoing atheists from his grave

>>17384394
uh, hello?

>>17384412
Zizek is a retard for comparing Islamists to Christians.

>>17384472
Ah yes, if only Dostoevsky knew how Soviet Union refuted his thesis.

>>17384582
>>17384566
My favourite part from Brothers Karamazov is how Dostoevsky eviscerates Hume (I wonder if he read him?) with "if you need miracle to believe, you were faithless in the first place" (don't know the English translation but that's the gist of it)

>>17384888
because one of his great strengths is the ability to write perfect fiends so that you feel like they're winning the argument.

>>17384472
some people think that love means dick rubbing

>>17384394
I used to laugh at this notion but after reading Brothers Karamazov and witnessing the relentless onslaught of global homogenization, I understand that this is the truth, and I understand why Kafka valued Dostoevsky above every other writer.

>>17385374
Fallible objective/"real" authority figures are justified by infallible subject/"ideal" ones.

>>17384408
the social contract

>>17384412
smoothbrain hands typed this post

>>17384399
But the golden rule is based on a fear of retribution i.e. if you do something bad then bad things will happen to you. This retribution is spiritual. If there is no god/spirit then any retribution would be purely coincidence or would happen whether or not bad things were done in the first place thus the golden rule becomes a "so?"

>>17384888
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/05/believe-it-or-not

>>17384399
Spooks

>>17384566
Didn’t Smer hang himself cuz Ivan was going to expose him rather than guilt? He seemed proud of his execution of the murder

>>17384394
Just noticed Dost looks a bit like Simon Pegg

>>17392243
This is Dosto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQobuE-suc

>>17384408
Living in a society is generally comfortable despite its nuisances, police, my personal ethics, subconsciously hard-wired things like empathy for others, fear against all rationality that there might be a god/karma/etc and I might fuck myself over for eternity or something close to it.

>>17384412
>If I am the agent of God, everything is permitted, even the murder of "innocents"

Christianbros how do you cope with the fact you wont see God in your lifetime? I feel a pull towards Christianity but the thought that no matter how much I try I can't see my creator until death makes me melancholic. I envy the apostles being able to walk with the savior and talk directly with him. Its probably a reflection of my lack of faith but I really do wish I could experience God fully in this life.

>>17385082
No it wasn't. Are you insane?

>>17388631
He wasn't religious. God was a postulation to make people act moral but his inner circle said he himself had no believe

If there is no God, nothing is permitted.

>>17384439
>permitted

Its worse than that anon, if there is no god something worse will fill the vacuum like politics, consumerism or scientism.
I dont know of any full blown atheists.
In my case its politics and im getting tired.

>>17384394
a more nuanced framing of Zizeks argument as phrased by >>17384412 is that precisely a belief in a coherent totality (be that God or a secularized 'humanity' or 'nature') always already contains an exception to this totality. we love 'humanity' as a whole but conveniently exclude the groups that threaten that or that we dont see as worthy of being 'human', the same with divine Goodness. Atheism as Zizek sees it is not your fedora tipping variety which always falls back on 'nature' as a coherent whole to expain things. its the painful realization that the entire burden of reality and morality lies on us, not on a coherent whole. Its the Hegelian move where through the death of Jezus, God dies as well. God (i.e the coherent whole of being) comes down to us as the holy spirit (the internally contradictory Geist). It is now purely in our lap. Every conscious and unconscious action is our ultimate responsibility. Its only here that we cannot act for a 'greater good' or a 'divine justice' that allows us to justify cruelty. If God is dead, nothing is permitted.

>>17384394
Conversely speaking would the presence of God mean nothing is allowed?
Is human freedom inherently secular, perhaps even Satanic in nature?
I feel like the Bible does essentially say this, but I am not well read enough.

>>17393229
jesus said he who sins is a slave to sin.
Just quoting the bible.

still discussing this faggot and his concept? vaccinate yourself, brainless morons.

>>17384408
punishment that doesn't happen to be divine. this isn't complicated

>>17384394
Why is everything not permitted if God exists?

>>17393244
esl retard

>>17392437
As the world tends to invert true reality, the worldly phrase: "i will believe it when i see it" when speaking of God should be inverted to "i will see it when i believe it"

The fact that so few see Him is a testament to how few truly believe

>>17387785
wrong because god himself counsels against these acts

unless you're a muslim anyway. then it's totally OK.

he's speaking specifically of the christian god anyway. you can found your own religion with a "god" who permits ritualistic murder or w/e but that's not what he's talking about.

>>17393645
efl degenerate

>>17392437
Just become a Monk

>>17384399
cope

>>17393908
tripfag cunt

>>17393932
uneducated shill

>Dostoevsky once wrote"If God did not exist, everything would be permitted";and that, for existentialism,is the starting point.Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist,and man is in consequence forlorn. For he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself.He discovers forthwith, that he is without excuse.For if indeed existence precedes essence,one will never be able to explain one's action by reference to a given and specific human nature; in other words ,there is no determinism-man is free, man is freedom. Nor, on the other hand, if God does not exist, are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimise our behaviour. Thus we have neither behind us,nor before us in a luminous realm of values, any means of justification or excuse. We are left alone,without excuse.That is what I mean when I say that man is condemned to be free.

>>17394422
He really was a big pseud

>>17385967
The Catholic Church existed before Aquinas. I’m not sure I get your point...

>>17385967
Also, this is a 20th century saint and not even a Catholic. I don’t know if you know this but not everything someone says is taken as true across Christianity because they’re venerated in some denomination.

>>17394422
>t. Man is free but you have already chosen -man

>>17392437
>Christianbros how do you cope with the fact you wont see God in your lifetime?

how do you know? Jesus could come back next week, literally says in the bible it's gonna be when you least suspect it

>>17384888
maybe because the ridiculousness of the bible has become so common knowledge, that anyone would be even entertain debates on it? superstition was btfo by the ancients, then by the enlightenment and then again by internet 'skeptics' - and yet these people keep coming for more

>>17392061
Good.

>>17384399
>>17384400

First posts best posts