/lit/ - Literature

>>17310218
It lacks Peter Hitchens

no self-determination
physiological torture of infants

>>17310218
absence of individuality.
tech dependence.
suprahumanity

>>17310227
Won't miss it if you don't know its missing.
Seems to be ok for religious reasons here and will be forgotten by them not long after.

>>17310240
i often considered that -- normies are very unaware of the shitty circumstances they give in to, but are happy. is the happiness worth it?

>>17310233
heaven

>>17310251
yeah for me it's not a "bad" world for for some it can be and i understand why...

>>17310218
The people whose mental state more closely resembles prey animals might be be better off in this situation.

>>17310240
>Seems to be ok for religious reasons here and will be forgotten by them not long after.
What the fuck are you basing this off of you absolute mong?
>Hurr durr the baby forgot having his cock chopped up, he would say if he didn’t
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201501/circumcision-s-psychological-damage%3famp
Do any amount of research before you say stuff like this you stupid fucking kike

>>17310218
Nothing, boomers have the retarded mentality that suffering = trve happiness or some bullshit like that. They always want everyone to be miserable because they can't fathom we will eventually get rid of suffering, work, etc. and they were born too early.

>>17310218
>>>17310227
Nothing, but it triggers Individualistic liberals who refuse to believe hierarchies of competence naturally exists in nature. So the idea that a running elite would run the world, and know better, makes them extremely uncomfortable (Even tho this is already the case in our world).

>>17310430
>Nothing, but it triggers Individualistic liberals who refuse to believe hierarchies of competence naturally exists in nature.
Fuck off Jordan

>>17310262
>yeah for me it's not a "bad" world for for some it can be and i understand why...
It's not "bad" for you because you wrongly assume you'll be some alpha plus, when you're much more likely to be a dullard gamma carrying the bags for your superiors as you avoid eye contact.

>>17310218
no SOVL

It’s a rebellion against God.

If there was ever any doubt as to /lit/ being filled with teens, this thread should remove it entirely.

>>17310313
If it were a problem there'd be legislation against it. Like with FGM.

>>17310218
T. Livestock

>>17310691
Nice argument, 10/10.

>>17310218
Everything, zoomers have the retarded mentality that nihilistic hedonism = true fulfillment or some bullshit like that. They always want everyone to be retardedly obedient because they can't even fathom that they will eventually get rid of freedom of thought and intellectual pursuits, etc. and they were born too late.

>>17310444
i got no problem with that.
why did you assume that i wouldnt be happy to be a dullard gamma?
also checked.

>>17310454
>It’s a rebellion against God.
God dos not exist.

>>17310829
>why did you assume that i wouldnt be happy to be a dullard gamma?
That's fair, you seem to already be one to some degree.

There cometh the time when man will no longer give birth to any star. Alas! There cometh the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself.

Lo! I show you the last man.

“What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?”—so asketh the last man and blinketh.

The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything small. His species is ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth longest.

“We have discovered happiness”—say the last men, and blink thereby.

They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loveth one’s neighbour and rubbeth against him; for one needeth warmth.

Turning ill and being distrustful, they consider sinful: they walk warily. He is a fool who still stumbleth over stones or men!

A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death.

One still worketh, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one.

One no longer becometh poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wanteth to rule? Who still wanteth to obey? Both are too burdensome.

No shepherd, and one herd! Every one wanteth the same; every one is equal: he who hath other sentiments goeth voluntarily into the madhouse.

“Formerly all the world was insane,”—say the subtlest of them, and blink thereby.

They are clever and know all that hath happened: so there is no end to their raillery. People still fall out, but are soon reconciled—otherwise it spoileth their stomachs.

They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health.

“We have discovered happiness,”—say the last men, and blink thereby.—

>>17310218
>What's so bad about this world exactly?
That you don't realize we live in it

>>17310833
rude.

>>17310218
>Muh LACK OF FREEDOM
>Muh RIGHT TO SUFFER
>Muh NO EQUALITY
Immature knee-jerk reservations like these, prevent people from understanding exalted Utopianism, the kind that disregards lies we tell ourselves to cope with our sufferings of the world, and tell ourselves it all meant something, it was worth it, that democracy and freedom are anything more than papers and instruments for interests.

>>17310832
Welcome to /lit/

>>17310904
>Immature knee-jerk reservations like these, prevent people from understanding exalted Utopianism, the kind that disregards lies we tell ourselves to cope with our sufferings of the world, and tell ourselves it all meant something, it was worth it, that democracy and freedom are anything more than papers and instruments for interests.
I'm glad your bunch will too busy wanking yourselves in VR to have any influence on the real world some time in the future

>>17310218

>>17310218
Nothing. The book really is a demonstration of lunatics who are not satisfied with a utopia. Literally individuals who claim the right to be unhappy. The other human beings are fine with just having pleasures and working 8 to 5, a sharp reflection of our actual world. That's all it is.
I'm not even criticising one or the other btw, as a matter of fact the island exile situation is a solution to this world, the only failing was that mustapha mond didn't let john the savage join his bros at the island. Had he done that it's likely he would've found a lunatic qt and keep her. Hell, lenina was a lunatic herself.

btw I'm one of those said lunatics.

>>17310955
I don’t madturbate, but I agree with you, I do think the world would be better if lesser humans were completely bewitched by a sustainable painless hedonism, rather than participating in democracyMs illusion or obsolete jobs. Though I’d say advanced eugenics would also speed up the process of lowering the amount of people around who cannot live without bring parasitic, and instead increase the amount of people who are a net positive.

>>17311005
*masturbate
*democracy’s

>>17310979
> haha, why yes, i am not an anti-intellectual hedonist, i'm such a lunatic, they're better than me, haha
As a hedonist, you're an intellectual cuck

>>17310218
Nothing if you're a bugman

>>17311050
can we just ban americans from /lit/? please jannies? is this a proper reply? read it and tell me this shouldn't warrant a rangeban for the whole country

Its the ultimate formulation of Truth vs Feeling.

Would you give up the Truth for infinite bliss?

Its a dichotomy - so it’s impossible to judge either way that one is better than the other. So this world isn’t ‘Bad’ its just a Lie.

>>17310248
What else is there? If you're happy with what you have, you won't want. If you're not wanting for anything, then essentially, there is nothing else. (from your perspective)

>>17310444
>It's not "bad" for you because you wrongly assume you'll be some alpha plus,
Maybe, but they condition everyone to happy with their lot iirc.

>>17311445
I large reason for Bernard's inclusion in the novel is to show that the conditioning (both genetic and behavioural) isn't infallible.

>>17311466
Only when theres alcohol in the blood surrogate

I.e, hes not an example of the infallibility of the system theoretically, there was just a one in a million error.

>>17310430
>the idea that a running elite would run the world, and know better, makes them extremely uncomfortable
what is the knowledge problem of socialism?
what is the calculation problem?
what is the ABSOLUTE STATE of the world as technocrats have increased their control?

>>17311498
>one in a million error
>there’s an entire plan and location in place for people like Bernard

>>17311528
They aren’t part of the system. They were born outside of it

>>17311498
>Only when theres alcohol in the blood surrogate
That's what people *rumoured* happened with Bernard, there's no definitive reasoning that shows that was the cause from what I remember.

Also what >>17311528 said, they've literally designated Iceland, the Falklands etc as places to send the members of society that can't follow the social rules. Even if he was a 1 in a million (there's no defect stats from what I remember), with the optimum population being 2 billion that still 2 thousand "defects".

In addition to this, the character of Helmholtz Watson (the quintessential chad) demonstrates there are people that are genetically "perfect" that can still navigate in their society whilst holding subversive thoughts. These two characters demonstrate unequivocally that the system is fallible, they (along with the savage) are who raise the moral question of whether it's right or wrong.

This board is filled with fucking LOSERS! Imagine thinking that true happiness is derivative of pleasure, borderlining to the actions and thoughts of a mere child. The true suffering in the book is that everyone are slaves to their impulses, and immediate gratification. It is a dystopia, not because the inhabitants CHOOSE to live there, but that they go through life BELIEVING that what they do will grant them happiness, and know nothing else. Deep down they feel neither happiness nor fulfillment, but they just drug themselves out of their minds to ignore reality. Their relationships mean nothing, their life means nothing, they are ultimately not alive since instead of following nature, they take artificial drugs to not make them happy, but satisfied

>>17311662
>This board is filled with fucking LOSERS! Imagine thinking that true happiness is derivative of pleasure, borderlining to the actions and thoughts of a mere child. The true suffering in the book is that everyone are slaves to their impulses, and immediate gratification. It is a dystopia, not because the inhabitants CHOOSE to live there, but that they go through life BELIEVING that what they do will grant them happiness, and know nothing else. Deep down they feel neither happiness nor fulfillment, but they just drug themselves out of their minds to ignore reality. Their relationships mean nothing, their life means nothing, they are ultimately not alive since instead of following nature, they take artificial drugs to not make them happy, but satisfied

>>17311639
We don't get much imsight into the "defects" as you said, but there is the island they get, which is a lot better than a gullotine. Honestly, letting the defects do their own thing within their own space doesn't really seem all that bad at all, although I seem to remember Bernard hating the idea when it was brought up to him. If you consider how many people are unhappy with the systems set up today, but have essentially no choice but to partake, it really doesn't seem terrible.

All that being said, I can't really decide at the end of the day wether I find it Dystopian or Utopian. If it was proposed today outright, I'm sure I'd rebel against it, but it's hard to do so from a logical point of view (assuming a tested system), my rebellion would be emotional, perhaps romantic.

orwell and huxley are anglo copes for junger and zamyatin

>>17311639
Helmholtz is another example of a non-theoretical error. He’s also an outlier, but on the other end. Its remarked upon that he’s ‘Too’ Perfect.

But i take your point, without the stats its difficult to determine how unstable it is.

But let’s postulate ourselves. Taking out all of the occasional erroneous Folk who have been born ‘wrong’ by accident (As these people don’t demonstrate Theoretical error, just an occasional Cock-up) - Is the Society in Brave New World Stable?

I’d say yes. People fit comfortably into hierarchies, and the pay in terms of Soma is enough of an incentive to stay. Also, you are either:
1. Too stupid to know that things could be better (Gamma, Delta, Epsilon)
2. Smart and able enough, but, you’re being advantaged by this Society, so you don’t care for change (Alpha, Beta)

So the only potential wobbles come from the outliers, which can be limited through better Technology/Outcasting

>>17311757
It would have to be.

This is the Theoretical Epitome of Feeling. You would have to argue that Morals should be fundamentally grounded in Truth. Which, over 2000 years of thinking, has not revealed itself to be the case.

>>17311837
Only read Zamyatin, hows Junger?

>>17310441
Nice argument. He is correct btw.

>>17311987
very good, read eumeswil

>>17310430
>Individualistic liberals
Do Americans really think they're "conservatives" for advocating an extreme form of hedonism and technological dependence?

>>17310233
Don't forget the mandatory orgies!

>>17310454
God does not exist, but if he did, it would be necessary to abolish him

>>17310240
>Won't miss it if you don't know its missing.
An argument against life.

>>17313878
American conservatives think that freedom is when you "voluntarily choose" to work for some technocrat and that unfreedom is when people say "maybe working a terrible job for your entire life is antithetical to the freedom and emancipation that the founding fathers envisioned"

>>17310218
You should read Atomised/Elementary Particles for an explication of what's so troubling about Huxley.

>there is a natural hierarchy
>This somehow justifies the existence of human-constructed hierarchies
Shit tier take

>>17312034

Jordan is gay

>>17310866
kinda true

>>17311662
Yeah, this board is full of retards who think that pleasure is the end all be all to life. What else is new?

>>17315871
This. Most hierarchies are arbitrary and impede the growth of the individual and the growth of society.

>>17317133
growth of society in what way?

>>17310218
Humans have become a docile slave race consumed by hedonism. Kinda obvious.

>>17310413
>Unironically being a hedonist

>>17310979
>I’m a soulless hedonist and desire no struggle, adventure, or really anything impressive whatsoever

the nuance in this book lies in the fact that there is nothing technically wrong about this world and yet we find it repulsive because of something irrational but fundemental about human nature. but i havent read it myself.

>>17317367
>the nuance in this book lies in the fact that there is nothing technically wrong about this world

I find it repulsive, so it’s technically wrong.

>>17317447
i meant from an inside perspective. if you were medicated, youd be less repulsed by it. but we find it repulsive from the outside. again, havent read it tho

>>17310430
best goy

>>17310218
Michael Malice is a Jew with Israeli citizenship.

>>17317367
spoken like a true soulless bugman

>>17317367
>the nuance in this book lies in the fact that there is nothing technically wrong about this world and yet we find it repulsive because of something irrational but fundemental about human nature. but i havent read it myself.
And from taking hedonism as objective then there is nothing technically wrong with a sadistic cannibal psychopath overdosing on ecstasy and heroin and inject you with anesthetics before stabbing and eating you

>>17310691
I forget once in a while that this is how most people think lmao

>>17310691
Hold on here boys we've got a genius. Guess there are literally no problems in the world, cause if their were there'd be a law against it. Amazing, retard.

>>17318069
You are the souless one here, you can’t question your human nature. You are like an animal who can’t recognize it’s face in the mirror. It reeks of the anthropocentrism innate in us, that we can’t be reduced to experience machines just like animals, that we must be the center of the universe, that our abstractions and objectless forms mean something higher, that the universe has a teleological narrative and we can directly point to it, and should preserve it, that “meaning” is more than an appetite of the ego.
>>17318087
BNW’s hedonism is methodical and collective, like a utilitarian calculus. I’m sure whatever pleasures that world could bring to someone, would be enough to pacify someone ridiculously brutal tendencies, and if not, it wouldn’t hesitate to place them in another society.

>>17310454
If the world of BNW ever came to be, it will be because God allows for it to exist. How can anything be a rebellion against God when God created us and gave us the means to disobey? Are we to know what is good and evil? Apparently we do not know it clearly enough if we still disobey. Is the knowledge of good and evil inherent within us? If it is, then what do we need the Bible and religious doctrine for? If everything necessary to be good is already within us, then religion and scripture are merely decorative.

>>17311662

>>17310218
There’s no provision for genius, which is the actual goal of civilisation, rather than comfort

>>17319887
Comfort is comforting, if it could be perfect and sustainable, what would “the goal of cilization” give to us? Our actions aren’t ends in themselves but motivated by innate and determined appetites in our mind. Morality seeks to create rhetoric for us to defend our own different wills (emerged from innate impulses and appetites), but if the end of morality (which is a mean) (emerged from the appetite and will) are solved, there is no more work to be done.

Some people in this thread would agree to this world until they realize that they will probably be grade C toiler cleaner in the book.

>>17320317
And they'd be happy with their job or given a place on the island.

>>17310430

The final goal in liberalism is to actually reach global hegemony in the hands of an economic elite. You seem to understand nothing.

>>17320317
Only the real bugmen, who can’t put logical thinking above their ego

>>17317367
>but i havent read it myself.
/lit/

>>17310691
Retarded fuck

>>17311662
This anon is right
All you other faggots can kys

>>17318069
the soul comes from the fact that wed rather do what is irrational than do what we find aesthetically appalling or what we find soulless. i argued for that "soul" factor not against
>>17318087
for him there isnt

>>17318087
>And from taking hedonism as objective then there is nothing technically wrong with a sadistic cannibal psychopath overdosing on ecstasy and heroin and inject you with anesthetics before stabbing and eating you
yes

>>17311662
Thanks

>>17311662
This.

>>17317367
>technically wrong

>>17317488
>i meant from an inside perspective. if you were medicated, youd be less repulsed by it

If I was a pedophile, I wouldn’t be repulsed by the premise of fucking kids. Doesn’t mean anything.

>>17319682
>Dude we’re just, like, robotic animals and stuff. I want to be a pathetic hedonist and just cum all day

>>17323494
exactly. the books statement isnt a moral one but a descriptive one. about something inherent in us that would rather be irrational than be conceptually ugly