/lit/ - Literature

>>17291277
Who's next? Kant? He also said some racist things, you know.

>>17291284
Kant and Schopenhauer

>>17291295
How about Marx?

>>17291284
Every intellegent man in history has said something racist. It is time to erase the past! Raise the banners! Call in the redguards! It is time for the second cultural revolution!

>>17291277
I didn't even know that the idea of "whites" existed back then. I thought everyone identified with their nation or ethnicity, not a collective "white race"

>>17291301
Marx made me belly laugh when I read that he called Lassalle "NIGGER SKULL"

"NIGGER SKULL" sounds like something my unemployed racist friend would say or change his steam name to with a lowercase "L" in "NlGGER" so it doesn't get blocked

Niggers, he thought. With niggers you can never be certain that what ought to be will ever be possible from what is.
Then, he thought further, it is impossible to relax.

>>17291277
Well of course, why the hell wouldnt you expect this. It's leftists and niggers seething with hatred of europe and everything refined, reminding them of their own lowely position. The video of the niggers in the scottish art gallery screaming and frothing at old paintings is instructive.

>>17291326
HAHA source??

>Last year Edinburgh University announced that it was going to rename the David Hume Tower in the centre of the capital after the killing of George Floyd sparked international action against historic racism – though they could possibly have thought of a better name than just 40 George Square.

>The university said at the time: “It is important that campuses, curricula and communities reflect both the university’s contemporary and historical diversity and engage with its institutional legacy across the world. For this reason the university has taken the decision to re-name – initially temporarily until a full review is completed – one of the buildings in the Central Area campus.

>“From the start of the new academic year the David Hume Tower will be known as 40 George Square. The university has never played any part in the naming of the space where the building sits, which has been known as George Square since the 1700s.

>“The interim decision has been taken because of the sensitivities around asking students to use a building named after the 18th century philosopher whose comments on matters of race, though not uncommon at the time, rightly cause distress today.”

WE DID IT LEFTYPOL COMRADES
WE ABSOLUTELY FUCKING DID IT

>>17291284
Nietzsche used "negroes" as an example of early man in Genealogy of Morals

>>17291352
>The video of the niggers in the scottish art gallery screaming and frothing at old paintings is instructive.
Sauce?

Hoping within my lifetime to see some of these people lined up and shot, blown up, stabbed, or beheaded.

>>17291353
My bad it was Lafargue for the nigger skull
>According to Franz Mehring, prominent socialdemocrat and early biographer of Marx, Lafargue had "Negro blood in hisveins", effecting "a certain obstinacy", which sometimes caused Marx to getexcited about his "nigger skull" in a "tone of good-humoured banter."
He called Lassalle a Jewish nigger, that was what mixed me up

The quoted article is whining about "the N word" like a fucking fag but if you read the original biography it seems fine to me
>However, the tone of good-humoured banter which they used towards each other is sufficient proof of how well they got on together. For Marx Lafargue became not only a son-in-law who brought happiness to his daughter Laura, but also a capable and dexterous assistant who proved a loyal defender of his intellectual legacy.

Just a bit of banter with the lads

Everyone who's intelligent has racist opinions.

Everyone who's retarded has racist opinions.

>>17291295
>Schopenhauer

He wasn't a racist like Kant or Hegel.

>>17291390
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lt1umirFdY4
Niggers everybody, delightful.

>>17291433
Imagine the paintings looking down on this maniac african shadowboxing and babbling, wearing white european clothing and brought here on a white european boat or plane

Imagine you come out of your bathroom after taking a shit and there's a freaked out chinaman kickboxing the air screaming RANDOM... WHITE MAN'S APARTMENT.... WHY SHOULDN'T IT BE MY APARTMENT? WHY DOESN'T THIS APARTMENT REPRESENT ME? You'd be like go home chinaman, fuck off. Unfortunately paintings can't speak.

>>17291433
imagine holding a grudge against people who have been dead for centuries and didn't even have a hand in the slave trade

>>17291433
Blacks are really racist in my experience.

yes basically everyone in the past is problematic by modern standards but sadly this kind of naunced view of history and great men is lost on the scottish government so they will probably rename it the "George Floyd memorial tower"

in the "rascism bad" scottish parliament session around the time of Floyd getting killed you had actual elected MSPs saying that the 1833 Slavery Abolition Act paying slave owners the value of their freed slaves was bad despite it being literally the only reason the bill was able to be passed. This shows either A) they don't understand the compromise needed for real government because they only have the table scraps of political power or B) they are so ideological they would rather have slaves stay in chains than make any concessions.

[spoiler ]I really hate the SNP. having one party dominate with no realistic competition is the fucking death of democratic government[/spoiler]

>>17291491
Civilisations without real crises to face will inevitably dissolve into this torpor. Real parties and thus real dialectic arise from real obstacles. They took all the obstacles away so we would become ingrown and retarded. Democracy doesn't make sense as a free floating abstraction, it inevitably becomes party bureaucracy. The only thing that keeps bureaucracies from rigidifying and becoming self-justifying is to have them in constant dialogue with actual historical happenings, so they never have time to settle in too much. New blood always cycling in because old blood can never handle every new exigency.

Why do bongs think George Floyd was killed in their country..?

I doubt most of them could find Minneapolis on a map, and I know Floyd couldnt find Scotland on one.

>>17291504
Because the left is the exact same in every western country.

>>17291500
Whats your dialectical theory for why China survived while Egypt, Greece and Rome didn't

>>17291525
China is a bronze age monarchy caught in stasis for thousands of years. Hegel said himself China is not a historical nation, it never developed internally beyond the Zhou era. They still practiced cannibalism in modern imperial China (Ming and Qing) and still do a little today as well. They dig up corpses and marry them. They think torturing animals makes them taste better and they are a completely shame based culture that never reached the guilt stage. China can "survive" anything because it was never alive, it is practically an animal existence.

>>17291525
>Whats your dialectical theory for why China survived while Egypt, Greece and Rome didn't

have you forgotten all the times it was conquered or disintegrated? 100 years ago china was a totally shattered nation ruled by hundreds of different warlords

>>17291525
Not that anon but China literally collapsed dozens of times throughout the past 2000 years. They had paper money and then they didn't. One emperor creates a sophisticated legal framework for society during the Qin dynasty and then hundreds of years later it's discarded by the next emperor.

China never amounted to anything because each emperor would slash and burn the accomplishments of the dynasty they were replacing. It went so far as to completely destroy languages and history, sometimes genocidally wiping out entire peoples to accomplish this task.

>>17291433
>ayo Scotland wtf, where dem black ppl at?
>*babbles incoherently*

They want to erase European history because there is no African history
Instead of raising themselves up they want to lower you down so they feel better about their lack of accomplishment
Typical behavior from them though

>>17291302
>Every intellegent man in history has said something racist
Almost as if... there is a reason for his... almost...

>>17291302
Jesus wasn't racist.

>>17291653
or perhaps they're getting tired of a mass collective of ignoramuses like yourself autistically asserting that "there is no African history" when any cursory search would reveal the blatant falsehood of it. The richest man in the history of the world, a man so rich his coffers devalued gold across an entire continent, was African.

>>17291277
>Scotland’s greatest philosopher a
He wasn't Scottish and hated Scotland.

>>17291703
Lmao, it is really pathetic how niggers like yourself try to cling onto these nebulous, unsubstantiated events like “we built the pyramids” in order to give yourself a sense of historical pride which you don’t deserve. While niggers sat for thousands of years on their resource-rich continent shouting ooga booga and shitting in holes, the rest of the world was building civilisation, innovating, studying the world, and creating art. Niggers did nothing. That’s why you got colonised by the Europeans so easily.

>>17291703
>The richest man in the history of the world, a man so rich his coffers devalued gold across an entire continent, was African.

not the "africa has no history" brainlet but he was a north african not sub-saharan who made a lot of his money from selling slaves to the arabs

>>17291729
>north african
so berber

>so berber

>>17291729
He made a lot more money from the gold and salt mines than the slaves

>>17291728

>>17291429
He was a wamen raspecter so he'll get cancelled too

>>17291703
>Ayyyooo nigguh I got dem chains wit dat ice
Being from an area with a shitload of gold doesnt equate to civilizational development, Kang.

>>17291703
And what did Mansa Musa did with his gold? He spent it all on a fuckload of trinkets and shit like a third rate nigger rapper and collapsed gold prices for a decade or two.

>>17291379
>stupid dumb ass students

I bet they were mostly, if not all, female.

>>17291992
> He was a patron of science, the arts, literature and architecture and the empire flourished culturally during his reign.[14]

>>17291703
And this justifies equating all european history to "oppression of blacks" and then erasing it, how?

>>17291699
He was a Jewish supremacist who called Greeks dogs

>>17292343
called Canaanites*

>>17291277
The prophet Mohammed held slaves. Something tells me the people making these attacks on European historical figures won't be going around burning qurans, vandalizing mosques and destroying anything that has the Prophet's name on it.

>>17292374
what a dimwit take

>>17291500
this. and they will keep playing fantasy forever, it doesn't matter if they lived in a literal utopia and divorced themselves from history they would fuck it up. the state and whatnot encourage it because it has no bearing on anything important, it's a sandbox and these days can be directed in attacking or subsuming dissidents.

>>17291504
media says it's important so certain sections of society take it up. to be fair, many of them probably have nothing to do with normal people.

Why do people who have never read a single word of Hume react so viscerally to this? I assume they take is as an attack on their national identity or something but you'll see some Amerimutt in Nebraska complaining about it as well. Who cares about this? How does it effect you? Give me one tangible way this impacts your life!

>>17292391
yes and no. clearly only relevant european figures are allowed to be dismantled.

>>17292425
it's just an example in a gleeful trend. don't be disingenuous. if you can't see the bigger picture or see what is related to this (such as the globalisation of media and correct opinion, note how this is the scottish government), then you are a wilfully blind conformist.

>>17292434
Yeah mate I'm sure all the statues of Abu Bakr in Britain will be left up kek you fucking retard

>>17292450
did you miss the yes and no part. obviously there's no leftoid drones in islamic countries who somehow have political power, but one is inviolable and the other is i will take any excuse to erase you and the more important the more i desire it.

>>17292448
Explain to me what the bigger picture is. Also again how does this impact your life at all?

>>17291277
>had you been born and bred a slave, your genius, whatever you may think of it, would never have been heard of
Didn't people like Diogenes and Epictetus manage to make their genius heard even if they went through slavery? That sounds just like so much nigger cope. "We don't have nigger philosophers because of slavery!"

>>17292347

>>17291695
Don't go there, it's a dangerous thought in dangerous times.

>>17292474
>Europeans must be held accountable for slavery
>but ignore that the rest of the world also had slavery
Jews, Africans and Arabs all had slaves and were active in the slave trade, yet only Euros are being shamed for it today.

>>17292474
not gonna bother with a disingenuous grifter who genuinely believes that anything that happens is fine if society say so and any problem someone has is wrongthink. also, it has already impacted my life as a zoomer westerner i have been taught self-hatred and other destructive beliefs from birth.

>>17291699
Neither was he intelligent.

>>17292425
>why care about things just let insane leftists do whatever they want and never say anything
>>17292450
Pathetic cope, even you know this.

>>17292501
Countries and people reckon with their own history all the time. Why would Scotland a countries that's 92% Scottish and 96% white have protest movements against Islamic and African figures who partook in slavery. These movements already exist in those countries they are just largely suppressed. Why don't you google 'Iranian Cultural Revolution'. If you want look up Mustafa Kemal and his reforms in Turkey to see extreme measures taken to reestablish national identity and history. What you're saying is complete nonsense.

>>17292504
kek what a straw man stay off the internet for a while mate it's fucked your brain

>>17291379
>18th century philosopher whose comments on matters of race, though not uncommon at the time, rightly cause distress today
>rightly
Absolutely pathetic.

>>17291277
>had you been born and bred a slave, your genius, whatever you may think of it, would never have been heard of
Had he been born a nigger he wouldn't never be a genius, given that as he himself said, the negroes are dumber than whites.

>>17292528
>Countries and people reckon with their own history all the time
Bullshit, Slavery is never brought up in Middle eastern politics or media, nor are they told to be ashamed of their ancestors or to give gibs to blacks. you're either baiting or an actual retard.

>>17292501
Yes, because they are the only people where you can play that card to gain something from it.

Do you think Jews will hand over anything if you point it out? No, they'll just call you an anti-semite and ask why you persecute them like that.

Arabs are not giving a single fuck and Africans literally have nothing to give to the world, so what's the point in trying to get something out of them?

>>17291433
nihilistic ressentiment

>>17292528
>Countries and people reckon with their own history all the time.
Lmao there's no reckoning, it's just "whitey bad".
>remove mentions of one of the greatest philosophers of all time because he held un pc opinions 300 years ago
>reckon
Look at yourself in the mirror dumb fucking ideologue shill.

>>17292545
you literally know nothing about the Middle East, it's politics or what the intelligentsia there actually believe. Also nobody in Scotland thinks they need to give gibs to black people what are you on about.

>>17292558
Clearly they do >>17291433
Renaming the hume tower is a "gib" to niggers.

>>17292558
>you literally know nothing
my nigger :) Im moroccan. Literally I've never heard or seen in my entire life a condemnation of
historic Slavery in my media (they don't even bring it up or mention it in History books in schools) or hit pieces against Moroccan figures who dabbled in Slavery. This phenomena is purely confined to the west, because as this >>17292547 anon said, they can get something out of it.

>>17292501
moreover, Europeans were the ones who abolished slavery. The only places where traditional forms of slavery still exist today are those where Whitey doesn't have any authority to stop it, like Saudi Arabia and rural India.

Furthermore, historically Europeans were much more likely to be slaves of Muslim owners than to be slaveholders themselves:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

In fact America's first war against a Muslim country was fought because state-sponsored Muslim pirates kept capturing American trade ships and then impressed the crew members into slavery, while also raping any females and turning them into sex slaves for their harems:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

https://therightstuff.biz/2020/09/06/ftn-american-ozymandias-jefferson-deep-dive/

>>17291295
Schopenhauer literally called Africans his brothers while he was throwing shit on mutt Christians for enslaving them.

>>17292598
The North African slave trade is very complex, And much like African slavery, there were some Euros factions involved, for example, Vikings used to sell christian Euro slaves to North Africans back in the day.

>>17292474
>how does this impact your life at all?
First they came for the jews, and I did nothing because I’m not a Jew.
Then they came for the blacks, and I did nothing because I’m not black.
Then they came for the homosexuals, but I didn’t nothing because I’m not a homosexual.
And then they stopped coming for people because everything was pretty good after that.[\spoiler]
Joking aside, I don’t need to be personally affected by something to care about it, and I hate seeing the destruction of culture taking place for bs reasons.

>>17292425

people aren't stupid and realise what happens if you try to judge and erase the past based on modern western woke morality. you would basically find 0 people born before the mid-20th century that aren't problematic in some way

doesn't help that the iconoclasts are operating with a shotgun and a blindfold hence statues of about 10 different abolitionists being torn down accidentally during the US riots

>>17291277

It's hilariously ironic that one of the forefathers of the contemporary practice of law is going under the rug of history by passionate protesters, especially the one who established the importance of keeping personal interests in check during conflicts in between parties.

>>17291277
Greatest philosopher of all-time and refuted BLM retroactively by proving that morality can't be derived from facts.

>>17292658
>>17292642
>>17292554
what you fucking imbeciles don't seem to understand is that this is not a "whitey bad destroy white people" movement. It's being sensationalised as that because that's what gets retards like you to follow the story. What's happening is an attempt to reframe and reevaluate history. Much of Scotland's great figures emerged in a time where things like slavery and violent conquest were acceptable. Today these things are not looked at so fondly. So there is an attempt to understand how it is that these figures, who undeniably make up an essential component of the Scottish identity, can fit into the tapestry of Scottish history while still satisfying modern ethics. If they cannot they will be hidden away (only to perhaps reemerge at another time). If the can they will be reframed. There is no "they" doing this. It is debate within Scotland itself. This is a healthy thing for a society to undergo. If you want the opposite look at Iran.

>>17292582
I never said that an identical movement was occurring in the Middle East. I said there have been constant struggles in the Middle East to reframe and reconstruct history based on modern understandings. As a Moroccan you should know that very well.

>>17291302
Erasing the past is precisely what they want. You niggers are always ten steps behind.

>>17292756
>>17292756
>What's happening is an attempt to reframe and reevaluate history
Clearly no because there's no debatt and no nuance. If there were, it would be obvious that renaming hume tower is retarded.
>Much of Scotland's great figures emerged in a time where things like slavery and violent conquest were acceptable
As is the case for all people with an actual history.
>So there is an attempt to understand how it is that these figures, who undeniably make up an essential component of the Scottish identity, can fit into the tapestry of Scottish history while still satisfying modern ethics
The point of this "attempt " being? Why do they need to "fit " into modern ethics. "The past was different" shouldn't be difficult to understand. Not that hume did anything, or thought anything wrong in the first place.
>If they cannot they will be hidden away
Which is retarded and vile, and even more so when it is done as a part of a greater process across the whole west.
>It is debate within Scotland itself
There's no debate, and the person who started the petition is an american
phd student at the uni...
>This is a healthy thing for a society to undergo.
Self hatred, shame and mass hysteria is not healthy.

Keep in mind you're doing all this mental gymnastics over a footnote he wrote about what he was "apt to believe". Absolute state of you.

>>17292756
>What's happening is an attempt to reframe and reevaluate history.

using woke outrage to scare local authorities to rename or remove statues/placenames isn't much of a debate over history. it is also is an entirely pointless endeavour to attack the past for not conforming to modern western morality. Even tearing down statues of just those who benefited from slavery would torpedo all european history before the early middle ages and between the 17th century-19th centuries, all islamic history before the the 20th century and about 90% of african history.

ironically the SNP is the most fucked by this year 0 approach to history since without their childlike hackyed Braveheart view of history all they have left is their increasing mismanagement of the country.

>>17292504
>it has already impacted my life as a zoomer westerner i have been taught self-hatred and other destructive beliefs from birth.
pathetic

>>17293053
>>17293050
> It does not follow that, because a mountain appears to take on a different shape from different angles of vision, it has objectively no shape at all or an infinity of shapes.
- E. H Carr

I'm going to try to explain this one more time for you retards. There is no attempt to "torpedo all European history". Rather, changing ideologies have caused a moment of reflection. How Hume fits into the Scottish national history is in debate right now. If he was a less significant figure, he might simply be entirely ignored (i.e Thomas Edward Clark and his contributions to the BBC are ignored due to his Nazi collaborations). It is not enough to say "the past was different" because the past is not just the past it impacts the present. How we see ourselves is as a continuation of the past. The Scottish need to evaluate how they view these figures in their history not just for Hume but others as well. In my opinion, as I've said Hume will not be forgotten, rather arguments and efforts will be put in place to contextualise his (unacceptable by modern standards) beliefs on various things. The Scottish are not self hating, they're quite proud in fact. Neither are they in a state of mass hysteria. As has happened numerous times before our values have shifted and in doing so the mountain of history appears to take a different shape. What exactly that shape is going to be is being debated right now. And yes it is a debate, we are partaking in the debate right now as are many others in Scotland.

>>17291330
Based and underrated

We’re in a new intellectual dark age.

>>17291699
...unless you're a gentile

>>17293295
They are making the mountain of history take the shape of bullshit.

>>17291534
china is just the name given to the giant experiment in anthropophagy between the huangho and yangtse. they eat barbarians raw or cooked but thats about it as far as "chinese culcha" goes.

>>17291504
Euros are driven by the desire to signal their moral superiority to Americans.

>...apt to suspect...
Other than ideology, what's wrong with making a hypothesis?

>>17291277
>I am apt to suspect the negroes
With all the evidence his contemporaries had access to, you can't blame him for suspecting.

>>17291504
Trotskyites don't recognize international borders.

>>17293295
If anything we need to have a "national reckoning" with the stifling egalitarianism imposed after WW2 as a reaction to fascism that's leading us to make increasingly stupid political choices.

>>17291284
Yes. For start. Leftoid bugmen won't stop until all our historical figures are tarred and disposed of. BLM btw.

>>17293295
>There is no attempt to "torpedo all European history".

I said torpedo all history. if anything non-european history is even worse off from this since more of it is deeply problematic from a modern perspective. of course if a modern society engages in problematic things (modern islam perhaps) then cucks like you view it in a culturally relativistic way but obviously this naunced view of cultural differences and morality obviously doesn't apply to the past for some reason

>And yes it is a debate

except it isn't really. it is a tiny handful of people signing petitions which cause local authorities (who want to avoid any fuss or accusations even tangentially of racism) to change names or tear down statues all before any debate on the subject can be had (and even if the later almost all people disagree with it being taken down they use the excuse it has already been taken down or changed and that changing it back would be pointless). there is very little chance to debate anything. For example if you think that hastily set up London monuments commission will take public sentiment or opposing views on board in their decisions then maybe they should sell you a bridge to cover all the taxpayer money they are spending doing it.

Also look at all those abolitionist statues in the US that were vandalised in the frenzy of iconclasm or the British Library slandering Ted Hughes as being linked to the slave trade because he had a single indirect ancestor in the 16th century who was tangentially related to the slave trade and honestly tell me there has been no hysteria over this.

>>17292756
I kind of agree with what you say, the thing is this entire process is driven by vested and rather short sighted, dishonest political interests instead of intellectual ones.
People with a brain know that you should not disregard meaningful contributions of people in the past just because we have a different mentality now, nobody thinks Plato was an imbecile because he thought blacksmiths were inherently subhuman and that art was "toxic" and dangerous to the pursuit of truth, we instead frame his thought in the correct time period and try to understand WHY he thought that way and why we shouldn't think that way either even thought he was undoubtedly one of the greatest minds in mankind's history.
Moreover, attacking monuments and pieces of art is rather idiotic, by the same measure we should erase James Brown's music because he was a wife beating, drug abusing easy trigger asshole with questionable mental hygiene, or rip aside Caravaggio's paintings since he was a murderer, and probably didn't have high opinions of black people, or really most non italians, and this would be just the tip of the iceberg.

This effort of reinstating some sort of soft Damnatio Memoriae won't bring anything good to anyone on either side of the political spectrum, let alone world culture, it's a disingenuous and very dangerous thing, we should treasure and learn from the past instead of destroying it or venerate it excessively.
Instead of removing statues make sure teachers are doing what they're supposed to do so that kids won't get offended by some piece of rock or bronze.

>>17293295
You're a craven and a fool if you let yourself be defined by contemporary morality, and especially if you start denying historical figures because they did not fit into it. The scholastics did not abandon the Greeks for being non-christian, did not close themselves from the world to wither and die in their purity.

>>17291695
Yeah, racism anon.

>>17293471
>world culture
Crypto-Marxist detected, opinion discarded

>>17292162
Any back up sourcing, or do you plan to quote (((Wikipedo))) all day?

>>17293621
>Communication doesn't exist
Are you american?

>>17291277
What I've always wondered is why the sculpter dressed Hume in a robe.

>>17293345
>>17293394
that's fine you are free to believe what you want in regards to how these historical figures should be viewed.

>>17293435
You have the brain of an ape. You don't even have the slightest clue what my opinions on Islam are. Read my response to the next guy I'll address your point as well.

>>17293471
There are two fundamentally incorrect assumptions in what you've written.
1) The "debate" being had is not a debate wherein the arguments are laid out and we all decide who has the best points etc. It is a debate between various factions of the "vested and rather short sighted" attempting to impose their view. This is how the mountain of history takes its shape. This is how it's always been i.e the Byzantine Iconoclasm
2) The study of history and the "historical construction of identities" to put it very crudely are two separate things. George Washington occupies are far different role within the context of the American identity than does James Brown. Plato occupies a different role than does Thomas Jefferson. It is not quite possible to say "ah yes but back in those day..." because they are more than historical figures. They are a fundamental part of the American historical tapestry.

>>17293537
fucking retard. Read the writings of British historians just after the Victorian Age and compare it to the writings of British historian after WW2 do they seem at all similar to you. Do you think historical memory of the Greeks hasn't shifted through the ages. History is a constant dialogue between the past and the present. Talking about being defined by "contemporary morality" kek

>>17293725
>You don't even have the slightest clue what my opinions on Islam are.

fine I will ask

am I to assume you take a morally absolutist view of other modern cultures rather than a culturally relativistic view of other cultures?

>>17291525
Yeah and you can still visit Rome dipshit

>>17293725
Our tradition is to debate and learn from the past. What they advocate, and you praise, is the subjugation of the past to present morality, the denial of dialogue, of the legitimacy of the past lives and their moralities. True historians have always wanted either to become native, to immerse themselves and attain a real dialogue and understanding with the past, or alternativelity to understand it "wie es eigentlich gewesen ist". You on the other hand, want to utilize it for political purposes, to castrate it and rip out its tongue, in order to use it as a slave soldier for the cause of forcing present society to obey your morality. It is the lowest, most despicable form of history.

>>17293725
>This is how the mountain of history takes its shape.
Doesn't mean it's a good thing or that you have to accept it, you speak as if the future is inevitable and you're living in it.
The past is the past, but we can change the present and the future exactly like others are trying to do, and exactly like they did in the past.
>George Washington occupies are far different role within the context of the American identity than does James Brown.
This has nothing to do with anything, even without considering how Brown actually does have a rather important place in that too given his history of political activism, on top of being one of the most prolific and famous artists of modern times, you can't say that Washington is a fundamental part of american historical tapestry but Brown isn't, that's just ridiculous and delusional.
Whether it is Hume, Jefferson, Dante or Hammurabi we're talking about doesn't change anything, the substance is the same, an attack against historical figures on flimsy moral basis that has no real intent behind other than a political effort for votes and whataboutism, and just because people are doing it since millennia doesn't mean I should blindly accept it, this is nothing but an apathetic loser's logic and I won't accept some pitiful and self destructive american political "ideology" to distort and bastardize intellectual dialogue and dictate what people should think about history.

>>17293295
>the past is not just the past it impacts the present
Sometimes in retarded ways the present is responsible for like in this case, giving rabid leftists an excuse to attack the memory of a great philosophers. I see absolutely no reason why, in this case this needs to be "debated" and you utterly fail to provide any, "the past impacts the present" is a truism.
>The Scottish need to evaluate how they view these figures in their history not just for Hume but others as well
What is it that disputes humes position as a great philosopher and thinker that causes the new need for the scots to evaluate him? Also an american started this, it's a process of mass hysteria sweeping western countries.
>The Scottish are not self hating, they're quite proud in fact. Neither are they in a state of mass hysteria.
If they weren't (or atleast central elements in scottish society) then they wouldn't have effected this name change since there are no good reasons to do so.
>debate
You keep using that word, that doesn't make it so. You're using it as a black box to stow dissent away into. It's extremely telling that you defend the process in these vague terms without offering any concrete arguments that would constitute taking part in a debate about the specific issue of hume tower or others. You're meta arguing to keep from arguing cause you want to silence any real debate.

You're gonna perform whatever mental gymnastics to defend the leftist mob everytime.

>>17293841
> you can't say that Washington is a fundamental part of american historical tapestry but Brown isn't
kek

>>17293794
anon please read the following carefully. There is a difference between what historians do as a discipline and how national/ethic/group identities come to be constructed. How this group identifies and views its history changes as time goes on.

>>17293768
> you take a morally absolutist view of other modern cultures rather than a culturally relativistic view of other cultures?
I haven't said this at all anywhere. Reread what I've written so far. As for Islam I can't be asked to get into another debate so I'll give you a brief overview. Debates over theology are largely a waste of time (yes of course islam as a theology is fundamentally barbaric) but it's irrelevant. Catholics today are very different to the catholics 500 years ago. Bosnians are very different to Chechens etc. Religion is not a driving force of action but generally mistakenly identified as such later on by historians. The issues in the Middle East go far deeper than Islam.

>>17293841
>>17293794
>>17293768
What all of you don't seem to get is that I'm not saying Hume should be taken down. People on here seem to caught up in the contemporary and don't understand how history moves. Nobody is saying you have to " blindly accept" anything. Go be a part of the fight to shape how the mountain of history ought to be viewed. I have nothing against that. (I'm done with the discussion btw best of luck to you gents!)

>>17293471
we instead frame his thought in the correct time period and try to understand WHY he thought that way and why we shouldn't think that way either

>>17291429
He was pretty racist, moron, which is fine.
He argued whites are more sophisticated and intelligent.
He argued higher-caste Indians tend to be lighter.
He argued Jews should never have any power in Western nations due to being excessively nepotistic.
He had extremely harsh criticisms of Islam.
He viewed blacks as intellectually inferior but not deserving of slavery or oppression, which considered immoral.
I agree with most of this too.

>>17293471
>we instead frame his thought in the correct time period and try to understand WHY he thought that way and why we shouldn't think that way either
That's WRONG you fucking brainwashed leftist worm. We should evaluate his arguments for correctness and proceed from there. Full stop.

>>17294015
You can't "correctly" evaluate anything without inserting it in the historical context of the time, this has nothing to do with left or right, this is exactly what pushes people to bring down statues and rename buildings.

>>17291277
That's fake news, they're not renaming it because of BLM, rather, they're renaming it because it is literally a ugly piece of shit of a tower, and the department thought it was a bad look to associate it to the most eminent classical Scottish philosopher.
THEN, retarded rightoids, like OP, imagined ( or to be more clear: lyingly made up) that it was cancelling due to Hume's racist remarks. THEN, wokies assumed that this was in fact thle reason for the renaming, and they doubled down on Hume once they discovered he helped a patron buying slave.
As usual, a culture war-related controversy is kickstarted by the fsct that rightoods literally cannot read, so they just make up absolutely retarded narratives which then get picked up by the news cycle

Source: I study in Edinburgh and I followed this whole ordeal at a close distance since its inception

>>17293725
>The study of history and the "historical construction of identities" to put it very crudely are two separate things. George Washington occupies are far different role within the context of the American identity than does James Brown. Plato occupies a different role than does Thomas Jefferson. It is not quite possible to say "ah yes but back in those day..." because they are more than historical figures. They are a fundamental part of the American historical tapestry
True and the part that hume plays is as a great thinker, not a "racist " and the part that churchill plays is as a war leader not a would-be gasser of indians which is why it's retarded to search historical figures for "sins" and then go after their memory.
>The "debate" being had is not a debate wherein the arguments are laid out and we all decide who has the best points etc. It is a debate between various factions of the "vested and rather short sighted" attempting to impose their view. This is how the mountain of history takes its shape. This is how it's always been i.e the Byzantine Iconoclasm
So you've been lying abort supporting the "debate " all thread, using that word in a completely dishonest way and basically saying you support whatever happens. Amazing.

>>17293984
>What all of you don't seem to get is that I'm not saying Hume should be taken down. People on here seem to caught up in the contemporary and don't understand how history moves. Nobody is saying you have to " blindly accept" anything. Go be a part of the fight to shape how the mountain of history ought to be viewed. I have nothing against that. (I'm done with the discussion btw best of luck to you gents!)

I really hope you aren't the same anon as these posts otherwise you've completely backflipped like a disingenious weasel >>17292474 >>17292425

>>17294050
Wrong.
>this is exactly what pushes people to bring down statues and rename buildings
No cause they're evaluating the wrong things in the wrong ways. Reason doesn't care about historical context. Historical context will not make sqrt 2 rational.

>>17294055
>ESL
>Source: I study in Edinburgh
>buttmad tranny leftist
pottery

>>17293984
Well you've provided some of the most dishonest and desperate mental gymnastics I've ever seen on 4chan and made an absolute fool of yourself. I think leaving is a good idea.

>>17294055
>press x to doubt

>>17291277
Our philosophical corpus contributed to anti-racism so you'd be disrespecting it with your racism.
But the corpus was made by racist incels so we need to tear it down.

>>17294120
>Reason doesn't care about historical context.
It absolutely fucking does and you're a clueless fool to think otherwise since you're literally standing on the work of giants of reasons that lived before you and made you think how you're thinking now.
To judge things achronically is the dumbest mistake you can make, and to conflate the whole realm of reason with mathematics is doubly idiotic.

>>17294055
anon we're trying to have a circle jerk here

>>17294161
Definitively wrong. A good argument is a good argument. Simply as. There's nothing mysterious and otherworldly about math that separates it from other thinking, math is simply thinking in the clearest and most honest way we're capable. Just because we're treating something inherently more messy doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to emulate those principles of careful, honest, dispassionate argumentation.

>>17294190
You can't apply mathematics to ethics or history, it's not about mystery, it's about common sense and realizing they're different realms of enquiry.
You cannot explain the changes in aesthetic taste through history with mathematics, just like you cannot explain something like Beccaria's efforts and argumentations against torture and capital punishment with mathematics, and why you cannot fully understand the importance of that without inserting it in its time period, regardless of whether you agree with it or not.

The very fact that you're calling me a brainwashed leftist already goes beyond your own argument to prove me right.

>>17291277
Maybe if they’d spend more time thinking instead of toppling statues of white men that have been dead for over a hundred years, maybe then the nigger could escape his plight.

>>17291330
Nice

>>17291284
He Kant be cancelled.

I strongly dislike black people.

>>17291433
Read the comments on that video

Bunch of breadtube faggots

>>17291703
Hey I know that one. You are talking about Elon Musk right?

>>17294242
It's not about using math specifically but using reason to evaluate arguments.
>why you cannot fully understand the importance of that without inserting it in its time period, regardless of whether you agree with it or not.
This has nothing to with how good of an argument something is.

Js mills arguments for free speech were good in his day and they're good now, because they're good arguments.

>>17291703
>there is no African history
There isn’t lol

>>17293774
Nice bait. "Rome" today is the name of a city. "Rome" 1900 years ago was the entire Mediterranean and half of Europe.

>>17292756
No, it’s not a healthy thing at all for a society to go through. It’s absolutely fucking retarded for one of a country’s greatest ever people to be ‘hidden away’ because they wrote something in a fucking FOOTNOTE that contemporary moral busybodies find offensive.
Thinking that Hume deserves to be exalted as a great Scotsman, regardless of the fact that he was a meany in a footnote, doesn’t mean that I want our society to be like Iran you disingenuous cretin.

>>17294320
probably chapotrannies

>>17291703
WE

>>17291380
No he didn't.

>>17294055
i bet you suck cock

>>17292617
If Schopenhauer was alive today he'd be some retarded millennial that watches Adult Swim and listens to 90s rap.

>>17296015
If Schopenhauer was alive today he would go fucking nuts because the world is nothing at all like it was when he was alive

Used to study there.
Old news is old.

The tower is a fucking monstrosity of thrown together 60/70's pre-fab architecture.

Read the responses to >>17291525 if you need a good reason to finally leave this godforsaken board.

>>17291433
wtf wow lol
is there anything more cucked than a Scot? or more loathsome than a black?

>>17291277
I really don't understand this. I'm no fan of racism, but surely it's not so bad as to undermine the legacy of one of the most important philosophical minds. So Hume was a racist in his personal life, who cares? the tower wasn't named after him because he was a stand-up guy or whatever, the tower had his name because he was an incredible genius.

>>17291525
>China survived
What about ancient China survived?

>one of if not the most intelligent men in history was a racist
>obviously this means we need to erase him, not take heed
?

>>17291301
I dunno about Marx, he wrote anti-colonial pieces. However, Engels was pretty open about his disdain for "lazy Mexicans" and celebrated the victory of the "industrious Americans". He wrote that the USA would make California into something useful, while Mexico would have left it as wasted potential.

>>17291305
The concept of "White" always existed on same level, since it was the most obvious common characteristic of northern Europeans. The idea really took off with the advent of the atlantic slave trade however, as White became a legal distinction that prevented you from being enslaved in the same manner that Africans could be.

>>17291326
Lmfao can someone pls post that imagine of Lasalle walking past marx and marx going on 4chan seething over Lasalle

>>17291379
At least 40 George Square sounds like a normal name. I can live with that.
I was genuinely fearing that they'd rename it George Floyd Tower or something of the sort.

>>17291414
BASED PREEMPTION THANK YOU ANON

>>17291429
>Hegel
I can't believe I read Hegel (or at least the Phenomenology of Spirit) without even noticing he was racist.
Goes to show how little I actually understood. I hate being dumb bros.

I love when leftypol anons talk about African history and only bring up MENA shit and Egypt

>>17294161
Reason is literally math, math is literally reason

>>17296530
>Reason is literally math
guess that's why people who rely on it too much are all autists

>>17291491
>B) they are so ideological they would rather have slaves stay in chains than make any concessions.
Option C) They acknowledge that abolition without compensation would trigger a secession like in the American Confederacy, and they fantasize about a "righteous war" to kill these secessionists

>>17296445
>At least 40 George Square sounds like a normal name. I can live with that.
Keep on compromising and coping, conservative.

>>17291379
isnt it funny how one of the most famous and influential philosophers is less important than some dead junkie

>>17295665
I'm guessing this is what he is referring to
>Perhaps in those days (this is to solace the weaklings) pain did not hurt so much as it does nowadays: any physician who has treated negroes (granted that these are taken as representative of the prehistoric man) suffering from severe internal inflammations which would bring a European, even though he had the soundest constitution, almost to despair, would be in a position to come to this conclusion. Pain has not the same effect with negroes

>>17296629
Thanks for sharing. So he regarded a people who were not yet culturally assimilated as "representatives" of "prehistoric" (read: uncultured) man. Seems reasonable and not racist at all.

>>17293651
theyre compensating for the fact that david hume got fucking rejected from the university lmao

>>17294055
pic related is cringe but he's not even wrong. what i find most confusing about reactionaries is that they foam at the mouth when a shitty tower gets renamed, as if this is even remotely part of the problem, and not just a surface level symptom. brainlets are always obsessed with this statue-toppling bs, whether it's left libs taking them down or rightoids trying to preserve "muh culture". it doesn't fucking matter.

>>17296445
what's a thousand times more cringe is them wanting to rename it after that bakeoff cunt. should start a petition to rename it to Cuck Tower. original one only got like 1000 signiatures and they went with it.

>>17291504
The modern European youth are Americanized due to excessive exposure to the internet (Reddit, Youtube, TikTok, etc.)
I'm not kidding here, I know people who know more about US politics than about the politics of their own country. People seem to actually forget that they're not American sometimes. The hilarious part is that they also tend to hate the USA, but inadvertently behave like Yanks

>>17291525
"China" is a label applied to every government that manages to takeover the area that vaguely encompasses the Yangtze and Yellow rivers. Mandarin today sounds nothing like the language spoken in the Han dynasty era, equating "China" of 1800 to China of 200 BC is like equating Italy to Rome.

>>17291703
>The richest man in the history of the world, a man so rich his coffers devalued gold across an entire continent, was African.
What did he accomplish of note with that wealth? Fucked up Egypt's economy a bit and that was it.
Don't get me wrong, there is actual African history to be appreciated, but drop the Mansa Musa shit, he's a meme. Ethiopian Christianity and Judaism is a million times more fascinating than just "AYY SHINY METAL YALL"

>>17292425
>Who cares about this? How does it effect you? Give me one tangible way this impacts your life!
"Give them a centimeter and they will take a kilometer" applies to these situations often.

>>17291284
Rousseau said his Emile could only be White.

>>17294055
>: I study in Edinburgh
Lmao dumbass
>t. Glasgow

>>17291695
yes they all had a limited view of history and pre-agricultural societies. Intuiting differences to be primarily genetic is the obvious route when you don't have the communications technology and heaps of ethnographic studies we have now. The genetic effects are there and real but what's been revealed since these great men wrote is the extent to which the "software" (which changes the hardware) is dominate to any population's ultimate material success.

>>17297150
I'd say it's still very much an open question, being practically impossible to study with any rigor or precision. We can of course say that it seems likely that both genes and the 'software' play important roles, but beyond that it gets pretty murky. the number of variables here is fucking absurd, and of course you can't run controlled experiments.

>>17297105
say what you will but at least our libraries don't burn down every 4 years

>>17291284
His statues are too small

>>17296422
True, imagine world without porn from Cali.

>>17297173
Yeah finding a definitive answer is probably impossible and boring to be honest.

>>17297257
>boring to be honest.
I find it pretty much the single most interesting question about history, it's the intersection of biology and culture

>>17291277

I remember there was a black kid in my college philosophy class and the tutor had to try to awkwardly explain away this passage. Funny stuff.

>>17296683
Hard to know whether he means culture or biology, or both.

>>17297274
I agree that the question is interesting but for me the answer if there is one would be boring.

>>17296968
>The modern European youth are Americanized due to excessive exposure to the internet (Reddit, Youtube, TikTok, etc.)
Yup. Just look at all the talk of police brutality in the UK during the George Floyd riots. Motherfuckers, the police shoot about three people per year!

>>17295660
WUZ

>>17291491
>>17296539
Or option D, they know it makes good headlines and the public doesn't know shit about history.

>>17297312
What interests me is not so much the 'differences between populations' part of it, but the more general problem of untangling the biological and cultural. The former is just a kind of added variable we have to deal with, once you get all these factors out in the open you have to account for various populations having more or less of those factors, just as you have to do for the variation within a population.

>>17297299
Lamarckism wasn't considered un-scientific yet. Paul Rée took both Darwin and Lamarck to heart when writing on the origins of morality and that probably rubbed off on Nietzsche.

With Lamarck there isn't a clear cutoff between instinctual and learned behavior because learned behavior and physiological differences brought on by environmental pressures were believed to be inheritable.

Even Darwin wasn't anti-Lamarck, and Lamarckism was still alive in the 20th century.

this game with history ("slavery was bad, please say that these guys from back then were bad") is one of a kid begging daddy to buy him more candy. acquiescence on these symbolic issues is a sugar rush, you're not actually building something better, you're just inching us closer towards chinese century by polluting normal people with your juvenile ideas about history, power and progress. you're effectively damaging the people who can help you to make stuff better

>>17297391
I know but the concept of breeding long predates Lamarck and Darwin. I often find it difficult to know whether Nietzsche is referring to culture or actual ancestry. Saying that a race literally doesn't feel pain the same way as another sounds rather biological but who knows.

>>17296054
Chinese man detected.

>>17294378
>Js mills arguments for free speech were good in his day and they're good now, because they're good arguments.
>It's good because it makes sense!
What a dumb fucking non argument, for centuries people had no qualm with torture (many still don't nowadays either) because back then the utilitarian aspects of torture were considered good arguments, it took literal centuries for things to change because sensibilities changed with time.
Free speech isn't an exception, Mill's own argument isn't an exception either and it was most definitely a product of its time too given how he was a classical liberal who came up with that during the golden age of classical liberalism, if you pulled him in a time machine and threw him back to Aquinas' times he would get laughed at first and burned at the stake second because the concept of serfs having any sort of right, especially to say what they want would be downright terrifying for 99% of the intellectuals of the time, and it would be worse if we pulled him back into ancient Rome.

Consider how even at school people are taught many things or notions that are considered antiquate and not really valid anymore.
Why would anyone bother with dead philosophies like stoicism?
What are the principle by which people categorize certain books as classics?
Why are we taught Latin in schools even though it's a dead language?
It's because when we insert all of these things in their relative time periods they not only make a lot of sense, but they help us understand how and why we think the way we do nowadays, no matter how good or bad these classics or schools of thought are.
Fast forward 400 hundred years from now and who can tell if people would still consider Mills' argument for free speech valid (if there still will be humans out there)? The test and influence of time is much, much more important than you imagine.

>>17297382
Yes I see. Good luck anon.

Oh wow I sure love that my cultural heritage is being erased, good job! Soon we'll all be rootless with no past, it all having been erased to edited to suit today.

>>17297427
>>It's good because it makes sense!
pretty much yeah.

how people react to an argument or the cultural background of an arguer has nothing to do with whether or not it's a good argument. according to legend the pythagoreans killed the guy who discovered the irrationality of sqrt 2, that doesn't make the proof any less valid.

cope seethe and dilate leftist humanities academia indoctrinated tranny, I'm sorry that you sucked at math and have to cope with intellectually dishonest g*rm writers over actual thinking and argument. facts don't care about your feelings.

>>17297312
cringe tryhard pseud.

>>17298649
>He thinks the argument is about empathizing with people and not that thought is inherently shaped and influenced by time
For somebody who, for some reason, wanks mathematics over feelings that much when talking about ethics, you sure are getting an awful lot of feeling on a simple argument you manage to misunderstand entirely.
Then again, you are evidently an easily triggered autist so it's not entirely surprising you don't walk your own talk.

>>17291277
Don't care i still hate niggers

>>17298704
>>17298704
>wanks mathematics over feelings that much when talking about ethics
pure retard.
>a simple argument you manage to misunderstand entirely
you have not argument because you're intellectually dishonest and an animal, you're producing words for the sake of producing words like so many fart-sniffers with an inflated sense of their own intellect.
>easily triggered autist
see >>17297427
and cope harder so we can watch your dumb animal confusion as you stumble around.

>>17298776
There's nobody watching anon, there's only your incoherent anger and projection.
It is very fitting though, because for somebody who supposedly doesn't care about feelings you keep showing how you're actually nothing but hurt feelings.

>>17298681
Shut up faggot. Atleast address something before you ad hom you waste.

>>17291284
He was into Phrenology, and, without a doubt racist. What these people don't realize is that the actual radical thing to do is not to throw his work in the garbage, but to use his own work to discredit him, but this would require actual effort, and good luck getting your average protestor to sit down and read all three critiques, along with his moral/ethical philosophy, and then pick out the cracks that form when you try and integrate his ethics with his metaphysics.

>>17296577
do you think the term clown world is just a meme?

>>17294055
you will never be a woman

>>17294055
that kid is based

>>17294320
>>17295644

somebody just posted this though:
Rubico
56 minutes ago (edited)
Vandals in Rome vibes from this video, lmao.
The "barbarian" is shadowboxing in front of these guys, among others:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell,_4th_Earl_of_Loudoun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Francis_Edward_Stuart

I'll save everyone a few minutes. His point: the tree of history is steeped in blood and pain, of many colors -- white, orange, grey, black, whatever. Some white dudes gained a lot from all that, or something. His ancestors are forgotten, dust, while the winners remain etched, their dominance over a long dead world on display for a small eternity. I mean, I can understand the resentment, they won -- you lost.

However, it's not very becoming of the spawn of losers to dance around and shadowbox shirtless in front of long dead people who can't defend themselves, while spitting out mad rhymes and verbal ripostes at their ghosts. It's pathetic, it's sad, it's self-debasing. His only response to everything was... "WELL AT LEAST I'M ALIVE AND YOU'RE DEAD. BTW THANKS FOR THE MONEY SCOTLAND". Is this really all you have? Is this really how YOU want to be remembered?

>>17293423
what's she reading

>>17291277
I tend to ignore emails from the university that aren't from either the maths or the physics department, but as far as I understand it the Students' Association grabbed the administration by the balls and forced the name change. It honestly doesn't bother me that much (there's still a statue of him in the center of Old Town and the philosophy department is still teaching his works). The real insult, in my opinion, is the fact that a bunch of students last semester tried to convince administration to rename the building after that econ student who won Bake Off.

>>17298949
The most radical thing to do is rather simple -- embrace his racism.

lmao do they even have niggers in scotland

>>17299487
in 2011 there were 30k blacks in scotland, 0.5% of the population. Probably more now

>>17291277
during the middle of the 18th century, all white people thought this

>>17298949
Well, what they're actually afraid of is they would spend actual effort only to find out that he was right.

>>17291433
https://youtu.be/kbMqWXnpXcA

lol

>>17299267
GoEBbIE HOXN

>>17291534
based and chinksect pilled

>>17299501
>30k blacks in scotland, 0.5% of the population

Holy shit that is way too many. Niggers are like at least -40 people each. Each nigger in your country in one way or another causes the death of 40. This is not a joke. Come visit US cities. Detroit was a like a thermo nuclear nigger bomb which not only destroyed the city but made it inhabitable for thousands of years. Japanese cities recovered from nuclear bombs but Detroit is now a post nigger apocalyptic wasteland.

>>17299837
Why do they think making commercial music that appeals to the lowest common denominator is the greatest arti8stc triumph in human history?

>>17291534
Please share more of this chinsectoid analysis.

>>17297198
kek