/lit/ - Literature

>What are those characteristics which define Vajrayana Buddhism?
Tantric Practices, i.e. visualization, deity veneration. It is said to be the most efficient path, for it it is the diamond vehicle that is indestructible.

>Is all Tibetan Buddhism Vajrayana or is it just Mahayana?
Vajrayana is subset of Mahayana. They share lots of the same deities (Amitabha, Guanyin/Chenrezig). Tibetan Buddhism is a form of Vajrayana, there are other tantric and esoteric practices in other Mahayana cultures.

>Are all Vajrayana "lineages" sexual or antinomian?
I am not sure how to answer that.

>What is the difference between Tantras and Sutras?
Tantras are practices that include rituals, mantras, deity veneratio, and sutras are the name of Buddhist Scriptures. Sometimes called suttas.

>Is the practice of deities exclusive of Vajrayana or can it be found also in Mahayana?
It is all over Mahayana, most notably with Amitabha.

>What is the relation between the Gelug and Vajrayana?
Gelug is the name of the Tibetan Buddhist school that the current Dali Lama belongs to.

>>17242942
Weird, I was just going to research this subject for myself, and not because of anything on /lit/. Though to be honest, as interesting as the subject is, I could never be one to actually venerate deities from another culture. Hence I'm more attracted to theravada and zen.

>>17243059
>>17243059
theravada and zen both venerate maitreya and avalokiteshvara

>>17243122
Not something I know much about at all since I've only read about the faiths and never been a part of a Sangha.

>>17243016
I've never understood how they manage to rationalize all that with the core Buddhist doctrine. There's even been violent conflict over which deities are worthy of veneration during the tenure of the current Dalai Lama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden_controversy

>>17243016
>It is said to be the most efficient path
Only by those who follow it.

>>17243122
Theravadins venerate Avalokitesvara?
Maitreya I can understand

>>17242942
>What are those characteristics which define Vajrayana Buddhism?
Devata-Yoga or Deity Yoga. In fact, there is no defining boundary: certain elements of Vajrayana are embedded in many Mahayana schools. Separate elements such as mantas and visualizations were also found in Theravada Buddhism: see the works of French Buddhists on Cambodian Buddhism, there were also mantras and visualizations. In the 19-20 century, they almost disappeared, as there was a process for the purification of Theravada.
>Is all Tibetan Buddhism Vajrayana or is it just Mahayana?
They are all Mahayana, but since all major schools use Vajrayana techniques, they are considered Vajrayana. You can be a "Tibetan Buddhist" and only a Mahayanist, protos without applying Vajrayan practices. It's just that in the Middle Ages it was customary to take initiation into Vajrayana for the sake of "good karma" even without real practice.
>Are all Vajrayana "lineages" sexual or antinomian?
No. This is embedded in the highest or internal tantras (Anuttarayogatantra / Anuyoga, etc., different schools have their own classification). Historically, they are later, somewhere in the 9-12 century. For example, the Vairochana Charya Tantras, which spread in Japan through the Shingon school, can be considered quite decent from the point of view of worldly morality. It's just that in Tibet they paid more attention to the "Higher Tantras", preferring "a stronger dangerous medicine" over a safe one, but not as effective.
>What is the difference between Tantras and Sutras?
There is really no difference. There are texts which in one place are entitled "sutra" and in another as "tantra". Conventionally, "sutra" is the teaching of the Buddha (or another enlightened being, Bodhisattva, Arhat, etc.), and tantra is also a text, but containing instructions on devata yoga with a description of the necessary mantras, mudras, mandalas, rituals, visualization rules (Sādhanā).
>Is the practice of deities exclusive of Vajrayana or can it be found also in Mahayana?
It is also found in the Mahayana. In Vajrayana, the deity is rather not worshiped, but is transformed into them. In Mahayana, you kind of try to become a "Firefighter" (this is my joke), and in Vajrayana, you imagine that you are "The Greatest Firefighter in the universe and you have billions of fire extinguishers, fire hoses, buckets of sand" and you just forgot about it for a second. This is the path of psychic transmodification from a mundane fool into a flaming Thousand-Handed Deity.
>What is the relation between the Gelug and Vajrayana?
Gelug is the Kadampa school founded by Atisha and reformed by Je Tsongkhapa. They widely apply tantric practices of all levels. Difference: strengthening monastic discipline, tanta teachers are only monks. In other schools there are lay teachers, married lamas, semi-monks (they take a vow for a while) and so on.

>>17243206
The thing which is interesting about this issue in particular is very distinct.

In Buddhism, all sentient beigns, excepct those which have attained Nirvana, are mortal. Even deities. So there are no "gods" properly saying, but beings which can attain higher or lower rebirths in the Wheel (Samsara). There are six main "realms" depicted in the Bhavacakra (https://www.lib.uidaho.edu/digital/turning/Bhavacakra.html)) in which each soul can achieve rebirth, but none are permanent:
>Deva ("Gods")
>Ashura ("Demi-gods")
>Manusya (Men)
>Tiryag (Animal)
>Preta (Hungry Ghosts)
>Naraka (Hells)

Since H.H. Dalai Lama V, Dorje Shugden was identified as a Preta (Hungry Ghost), as Thubten Norbu and H.H. Dalai Lama XIV also identify. The thing is that the practice of Dorje Shugden is very controversial, because there are some stuff allegedly written by H.H. Dalai Lama V which may contradict his original views on Dorje Shugden (such as prayers to him). But the main story on how H.H. Dalai Lama V got rid of him is depicted in his diary.
>H.H. Dalai Lama V vs. Dorje Shugden:
https://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references/historical-references-fifth-dalai-lama
>H.H. Dalai Lama V's prayer for Dorje Shugden:
https://www.dorjeshugden.org/practice/the-5th-dalai-lamas-prayer-to-dorje-shugden
H.H. Dalai Lama XIV on Dorje Shugden:
https://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden
and
https://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/statements-announcements/his-holiness-advice

Maybe Dorje Shugden is a Gyalpo of the realm of Preta (Hungry Ghost), but some venerate him as a Dharmapala (Protector of Dharma). It is a very controverse question. From what I come to understand, I would side with H.H. Dalai Lama XIV.

>>17243315
I have read the notes of a Chinese monk. He was in Sthaviranikāya (i.e. Hinayana). And he once wrote that he prayed to Avalokitesvara during the storm and the storm was over. Most likely in Antiquity and the Middle Ages there was no such fanatical division between schools and monks could live in one monastery and who worshiped Bodhisattvas and those who did not. Austerity arose later when some leaders began to fight for the "purity of their school."

>>17243206
>>17243383
From a worldly point of view, the followers of this cult were "zealots" who were needed when the Gelug fought for power. When power was conquered, “politicians” were already needed, who built relationships with other schools and power clans. The "Zealots" took offense and went into opposition.
From a Buddhist point of view: "emptiness and blessedness". This is a Tibetan squabble and it is better not to go there.

Why would I want to get into Vajrayana instead of Theravada or "standard" Mahayana?

>>17243530
>Why would I want to get into Vajrayana instead of Theravada or "standard" Mahayana?
Well, you must be willing to achieve enlightenment in one life, ready to risk going to hell if/when you break your practice, and have incredibly strong passions. That is, a sexual killer maniac who wants to become a Buddha in this life is an ideal Vajrayana practitioner. Fighting your vices not by suppressing them, but by "overdeveloping" them, so that they simply explode.
Well, or in the case of the lower tantras, you just need to love all sorts of rituals. Very aesthetically pleasing, see Shingon ceremonies in Japan for example.

>>17243383
I get that, I know that the devas and even bramas aren't gods like we commonly understand them, but the dharmapalas and other wrathful emanations of bodhisattvas or even of some buddhas are considered fully enlightened beings. Still, in all honesty it's impossible for me to take it all seriously. Specially since the guys talking about it all are supposed to be tulkus. I mean come on, it's no less baroque or elaborated than any other religion's mythos but I can't understand how people take it as having any relationship to reality. Bear in mind they're not even meant to be allegories of things or metaphors. No, the Dalai Lama and others truly believe Dorje Shugden is hanging around somewhere, straw hat and all protecting the gelukpas and looking disapprovingly at the nyigmas.

>>17243676
>>17243383
Also apparently the ban has already been lifted.

https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/current-affairs/dalai-lama-says-we-can-practise-dorje-shugden-finally.html

>>17243636
So if I'm not a complete maniac, Vajrayana unironically isn't for me?
I seek simplicity and a harmonious life. I'm not into rituals although the tantric aesthetic is interesting, I much prefer what is simple, adaptable and streamlined.

>>17243724
If you just want that then Zen or Mahayana in general might be the way to go. Theravada is supposedly bare bones Buddhism, but they don't get called puritans every so often for nothing. They just tolerate Mahayana instead of seeing it as a truly equal tradition.

>>17243676
>No, the Dalai Lama and others truly believe Dorje Shugden is hanging around somewhere, straw hat and all protecting the gelukpas and looking disapprovingly at the nyigmas.

Sorry if I'm not answering my own question, I'm just in the mood to talk.

They are Tibetans. The Tibetans were (and are) shamanists. For them, the world itself is full of spirits, mostly hostile. So for them the thought that some spirits are howling with each other and one subdues the other is the most common one. It is strange for them that it is strange for us. Perhaps some Apache or Evenk can understand this better, for them there are spirits everywhere. As the Mongye lamas say: Buddha left 84,000 different teachings for different types of personality, ours is suitable for us. Use those practices that make sense and are beneficial for you.
Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche said that it is important to separate the teachings of the Buddha from its cultural forms, that is, you can learn from the lamas, but you do not need to eat Tibetan food and wear Tibetan clothes.

About Tantra, one thing that must be understood is that, being simple-minded dumb people which have been seeking for spiritual knowledge for their own, haven't been able to be fully capable of being guided by decent genuinely enlightened beings, some of us in /lit/, we may mistake fucking Black Magic for genuine good practices.
What I'm saying, in bits, is that maybe the Buddhakapala tantra is not really a a genuine practice for enlightenment, but real Black Magic which could be totally mistaken by some unadvertised student whom might even have been a Nyigma for 20 years and got a little lost in his sights. The thing is that things might be tricky, and following some intuition might be a good idea sometimes, since it might even be a warning from higher teachers. That's why sometimes, even, thirst for knowledge which might not be for us may be a bad thing and we should avoid some studies when they seem eerie to us.

>>17242942
Fanfic sutras
Bastardized practices

About Tantra, one thing that must be understood is that, being simple-minded dumb people which have been seeking for spiritual knowledge by their own and haven't been able to be fully capable of being guided by decent genuinely enlightened beings, some of us in /lit/, we may mistake fucking Black Magic for genuine good practices.
What I'm saying, in bits, is that maybe the Buddhakapala tantra is not really a a genuine practice for enlightenment, but real Black Magic which could be totally mistaken by some unadvertised student whom might even have been a Nyigma for 20 years and got a little lost in his sights. The thing is that things might be tricky, and following some intuition might be a good idea sometimes, since it might even be a warning from higher teachers. That's why sometimes, even, thirst for knowledge which might not be for us may be a bad thing and we should avoid some studies when they seem eerie to us.

>>17243676
Indeed. I don't quite remember talking about any allegory in >>17243383. I do believe he is a Petra. And, not wanting to be rude, but, quite frankly, the answer was meant to be to >>17243206, not quite for you though.

>>17243724
It is not necessary to take initiation into the Highest Tantras without having special abilities for that.
I heard about 2-3 people who took initiation and gradually lost their minds: they understood that they could not stand tantra, broke their vows and believed that they were going to be born in hells. This is a terrible situation, Buddhism should help a person, not destroy him. You have to be careful here.
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with reciting the mantras and the Lower Tantras, you practice - well, if you don't practice - it's okay.
I also like the aesthetics of Tibetan Buddhism, but I consider myself completely unfit for Vajraya or Mahayana practice.
The lamas say that then it is better to just take the vows of a layman at the sutra level (that is, as in Theravada) and listen to the teachings for the sake of good karma.
It's just that for historical reasons, 90% of the teachings of Tibetan Buddhism are associated with the highest tantras. The Tibetans themselves think that this is wrong, but it happened so historically.
So I am for such a Tibetan Theravada, lol.

>>17243785
I'm not trying to imply their beliefs aren't valid, just that it's kinda amusing they're staunch madhyamikas to the point of shunning shentong sects over details about emptiness and still quarrel over protector deities.
>>17243842
Those two posts are mine too btw.

Since the resident buddha trannys here do not like it, it is probably based.

>>17243870
Oh sorry, my mistake.

>>17242942
thought this was a rare pepe

>>17243913
It is. A very rare, fierce and enlightened pepe.

>>17243913
It certainly has potential. The Bodhisattvas can easily be adapted into Wojaks too.

>>17243870
>I'm not trying to imply their beliefs aren't valid, just that it's kinda amusing they're staunch madhyamikas to the point of shunning shentong sects over details about emptiness and still quarrel over protector deities.

Form is Emptiness. Emptiness is Form. Nothing really happens, but everything happens potentially. In their world, there is no division into reality and fantasy, what happened and what did not happen. From the Madhyamakin point of view, it makes no sense to ask whether "A" is real, since whoever asks this question and whoever answers it does not exist by themselves. "Nothing is true; everything is ~~ permitted ~~ possible.

>>17243945
Tell that to the Theravadins tho.

>>17243913
Pepe is a peaceful deity.

>>17243964
>Tell that to the Theravadins tho.
What for?
I respect them. They may disrespect and despise me. I don't care and love them anyway.
Well, they do not have problems with the Evil Tibetan Flying Spirits Warriors, so they don't need to think about it.

>>17243945
What. It makes even less sense to argue over details in the context of Madhyamaka. As far as I understand it, Nagarjuna didn't deny the conventional world was real, so actions still have weight toward karma or potential enlightenment. So it's not possible to explain the conflict and the suffering away by invoking emptiness.

>>17243636
I don't really think a serial killer could get enlightened by using Vajrayana practices. I do think that the karma should be depurated before anything because of such conduct and, therefore, even before, the one who comitted to such conduct should be comitted to be back again to take the path to enlightenment.
There are some exceptional cases, in which there is to much karma, such as the case of Tharpo Nagpo, which, by what I remember, after becoming a Rudra himself, is still depurating his karma after having his evil body destroyed by Vajrakilaya. But, again, it is an exceptional case, since he has done evil deeds through kalpas and strayed even further from the path.
Also, I would recommend, again, the following of intuition in these cases, since one might be acting like Tharpo Nagpo (his story is really worth reading), since he acted in manners which were totally against the Dharma, believing he would become enlightened by taking hold of antinomian practices. It is very easy, not being integrated in the ambient in which such ideas are developed, to just take for a granted pass to enlightenment evil tantras that could consider themselves righteous paths to enlightenment, but are really Black Magic, such as the Buddhakapala Tantra, as mentioned before. It is not because it is realtively included in a tradition, by some means, that it is truly good or useful. If the controversy on Dorje Shugden, which is a question about the nature of a deity, caused such stormy violence and debate, imagine what some tantric practices, which could be considered inner, might really be.
I would also recommend the book "Tibet", from Thubten Norbu, the elder brother of H.H. Dalai Lama XIV, in which he explains, from a pure Gelugpa point of view, some issues on some tantric practices.

>>17243964
What's up with the hate against Theravada? It keeps things simple, I like it.

>>17244182
Reading on Tharpa Nagpo:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/sas/sas28.htm

>>17244030
These are just commentaries on Prajñāpāramitā in philosophical language - shastra. Nagarjuna does not really deny, since denial is a form of statement, but brings any thought to the point of absurdity. "Conventional world was real" if an unenlightened being likes this thought, they will work with it at the same conventional level. Pure didactics.
In addition, not only Madhyamaka, Tibetan Buddhism is also Yogachara, and it is known what more. Everyone forgot something about the Vasubandhu and Asanga bros. And there is generally epistemological solipsism: well, they have such seeds-bījā in their ālaya-vijñāna. "Consciousness determines being," to paraphrase Marx.
So when you communicate with Tibetans, you don’t know that when you tell them: did you say one thing, and today another? They will answer: yesterday there was one interpretation of this teaching, today another, friend. :)

>>17244188
Kind of a Catholic-Protestant split. Protestants might act nice toward Catholics publicly, but many privately believe Caths will end up in hell. The are plenty who see all of Mahayana as counterfeit dharma.

>>17244236
Never heard of this before.
As far as I know the demeaning behavior comes from Mahayana with the "Hinayana" stuff. The Theravadins don't look like they give much of a shit, I've literally never heard a single bhikku talk about Mahayana except when specifically asked about it

>>17244233
Sure, the heart of the teaching is the absolute groundlessness of everything. Still, that makes for a poor practical explanation when dealing with unenlightened followers who are still capable of even killing over theological disagreements.

>>17244182
Yes, I am not a fan of any extremism either. Perhaps we need to give hope to those people whose defilements are monstrously great. The thicker the grass, the easier it is to mow.There are people in Christianity who believe that you need to sin a lot in order to later repent more. It doesn't make me happy.

>>17244236
What? Fuck not. Hahaha! It's more like layers of understanding.

>>17243964
The real issue is that some Mahayana practioners tend to prove their superiority because they believe that Arhats don't really achieve Buddhahood for not coming back and helping the other sentient beings, since Mahayana practioners tend to follow the path of Bodhisattva (to willingly come back and help others achieve Enlighenment) and Theravada practioners tend to follow the path of Arhat (just to be freed from Samsara).

Thanissaro Bhikkhu might be a good example. I can't remember exactly where, but there were some comments he made about the prajnaparamitas that people complained amounted to calling them fabrications.

>>17244286
Yes, that does sound like that fucking Cainite gnostic or the Khlyst sects, which were clearly black magicians.

>>17244259
Thanissaro Bhikkhu might be a good example. I can't remember exactly where, but there were some comments he made about the prajnaparamitas that people complained amounted to calling them fabrications.

>>17244290
Is that really all? I thought they also disagreed with some of the deeper views on emptiness.

>>17244265
Dharma is beautiful, people are dumb.
As one lama said: we Tibetans are just an evil and stupid people who only knew how to breed yaks and rob caravans. Since we were useless for anything, the wise Buddhas handed us over as keepers of teachings that we either do not understand or do not practice. Self-irony is important.

>>17244300
We have plenty of them in Russia.
If you do not sin, you will not repent; if you do not repent, you will not be saved. (He coгpeшишь - нe пoкaeшьcя, нe пoкaeшьcя - нe cпacёшьcя.) .They are not "Cainite", just freaks.

>>17244380
>Dharma is beautiful, people are dumb.
I agree. It's always people that overcomplicate these things.

>>17243724
Look into lojong, it is pretty neat and simple mind training.

>>17244290
>layers of understanding.
Are you implying Theravada is more shallow? As far as I know, the idea of Mahayana being hidden teachings from the Buddha to his most trusted disciples has never been confirmed.
I do like the mahayanist view of sunyata though, it's quite beautiful.

>>17244380
They are not Cainites, I know. I'm just comparing them to the gnostic sect of the Cainites.

>>17244479
I'm not implying anything, I just said what the traditions say.