/lit/ - Literature

>>17205864
Wow, you're not only wrong, but you also proved that you don't even read the summaries of any literature. I didn't think there could be a poster on this board who was lazier than those who don't actually read the books discussed on here, but you decided to rope in traditional art in here while being negligent of current art world happenings, go masturbate with Horkheimer and Adorno you philistine.

>>17205864
>since the postmodernists?
We are still in the postmodern art wave

>>17205864
>David Foster Wallace is a postmodernist sjw, real vital art is jerking off to the newest Tarantino cumfest
literally kill yourself

>>17205864
Name one film in the 2010s as good as Stalker and I'll cut my dick off

>>17205864
>music and films are able to continually grow and develop as artforms
I say this with respect: you probably just don't understand these mediums well enough. Music can be reduced to a formula in many aspects. Pop music is essentially unchanged in structure and content, only changing the instrumental ornamentation around it as trends come and go. Moreover, the emotional responses to various chords and progressions is simply known at this point. The best ones are reused over and over and over.
In the context of experimentation, we have reached the extreme limits of noise. And we also have field recordings and various absurd things like 4'33 by Revel. There is no new textural boundary to discover. Experimental music is itself being reduced to gimmicks. It is just window dressing on the same ideas. Music is banal and shallow emotional manipulation. Music is a symbol people attach to themselves for their own egotistical reasons. There is no deep meaning to any of it and at a certain age the only value it will bring will be nostalgia

>>17205864
>music and film
both stagnant as fuck if you haven't noticed

Music and film keep getting worse.

>>17205898
damn bro, you really extrapolated all that from my one sentence? some psychic abilities you have.

>>17205938
didn't say anything about DFW, if anything he is probably the last literary writer to achieve some form of mainstream success.

I guess I didn't phrase my question very well, what I meant more was why hasn't any writer or artist reached the level of critical and mainstream success in the past 20 years like those that came before?

Literally, the only writer from the past twenty years that your average joe has heard of is fucking JK Rowling, where are our modern-day hemingways and salingers?

>>17205956
> Experimental music is itself being reduced to gimmicks
you clearly are not that aware of the experimental music scene on a level deeper than what you can find in a wikipedia article. The underground experimental / avant scene has always been, and still is, thriving. The Tzadik label for example.

>>17205976
People dont read books anymore. The art form is dying. Most of the artists are now in more profitable endeavours.

>>17205976
>>17205976
okay, in seriousness, I think this myself sometimes, but it's not completely true. there's a big difference between visual art and literature in this respect - you'll notice that there's no board on here for paintings, for example. that form has been embalmed along with opera. but novels aren't in the same position at all. now, intellectual fads have changed, which is why Colson Whitehead is topping bestseller lists right now instead of DFW; but serious and vital literature is still being written and read. fiction has a lot of currency in contemporary pop culture, no more or less than it did in the 90s IMO.

>>17205986
>The underground experimental / avant scene has always been, and still is, thriving.
Incredibly stupid statement. You have no idea who I am or what I know. You are upset because your identity is invested in what amounts to a bad joke. Music is banal. Remember this post when you burn out on it and see the truth.

>>17206009
Is Colson Whitehead bad?

>>17205864
Reading requires effort and thought

>>17205864
How do we judge what constitutes "artistic merit"? We look to see what the consensus is among the people who seem like they know what they're talking about. Unfortunately, whereas this previously consisted of a genuine literati of leisured aristocrats, monks, and other such people who actually spent basically their entire lives reading and writing just for the sake of it, that role is now filled by a different group: a status-seeking pseud professional class of journalists and academics. These people might have high cognitive ability, but they're also embarrassingly overzealous ideologues circle jerking over whatever moral or intellectual fads are trendy in Polite Society™, entrance into which having been most of their motivation for pursuing these careers in the first place (and which they'd be ejected from if they deviated even slightly from the consensus of). So while there probably is plenty of very good literature being produced, it doesn't receive the level of attention and praise that really elevates something into being Canon, because the gatekeepers to the Canon are too busy performatively bleating about how Dreams From My Father or Hillbilly Elegy or Saira Rao's book have the same level of literary merit as the Shahnameh or the Vedas or the Iliad (which no one, theirselves included, really believes)

>>17206032
Lol you are seething. Music is a beautiful thing, I cannot imagine tiring of something that is forever changing. You just need to listen to more music. I will sit here, listening to music, and laugh at you calling it banal, for the only reason you think that is because you’re banal yourself.

>>17205864
Name 1 great movie from this century. Obviously music will grow as it is the highest form of art - but still, can you name one great piece of music from this century?

>>17206047
Colson Whitehead isn't bad. The Intuitionist is cool as fuck (kinda Pynchonesque, actually), and The Underground Railroad is at least an interesting failure IMO. Maybe Krasznahorkai would've been a better example, he's more of a /lit/ type of writer who's still putting stuff out and getting a lot of attention, although I haven't gotten to any of his stuff myself.

I dunno. Genius is always rare, and American critics are kind of in this retarded rabbithole about race right now, which influences a lot of what gets attention, but there's always interesting things being done. It's just silly to say that literature is dead, when there's interesting things happening all the time, whether at the center or at the margins.

>>17205956
You are asking for something mechanical and formulaic that will just print out the nuances of life as if it were a computer. The best music is never completely rational like this. Deep meaning can be found in anything as it is all completely in the eye of the beholder, and their eye in the hand of fate.

>>17205938
DFW is trash

>>17205986
>Tzadik
>Tzadik is a title in Judaism given to people considered righteous, such as biblical figures and later spiritual masters
Serious question, what's the connection here?

>>17206091
If you genuinely need to ask this question you are either hopelessly hard to please or you just don’t watch enough movies or listen to enough music. As hard as it may be for you to believe, there is still good movies and music being made. It’s just harder to find.

>>17206139
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzadik_Records?wprov=sfti1

>>17206147
Okay, too hard perhaps? name just one true artist that has made anything after 2015 that is really great

>>17205946

>>17205986
https://youtu.be/i56QO9O8qso
People actually listen to this garbage?

>>17205956
>Moreover, the emotional responses to various chords and progressions is simply known at this point.
This is such a stupid statement it’s shocking. There is no doubt you have no training in music whatsoever and your only relationship with the medium is as a listener, and a pretty lazy one at that. There is absolutely no fixed “emotional response” to any specific chord progression, and in different contexts the exact same progressions can elicit drastically divergent reactions. You could have two pieces with the same chords sound dramatically different. Are you aware of all the other layers of music, beyond chords?
As for your claim that pop music is formulaic, that is a useless statement. Everyone knows this. There is formula in literature, as well as in all other areas of human creation. Your other points (music is banal and shallow) are frivolous subjective impressions which stem from your lack of knowledge.

>>17206208
That is fun

>>17206187
aphex twin

>>17206225
So is yoko ono

>>17206241
Shitty comparison. The song you posted isn't even that experimental

>>17206208
sounds good

>>17206253
Neither is yoko oni

I can't believe this thread has turned into bickering about techno music. You are all retarded

>>17205864
I mean, the first novel was inherently postmodern, Don Quixote and its play on genres, so literature has just always been ahead of the genre game.

That being said, the whole genre-whoring dialectic is a false one, that mostly deludes the arts, with its lack of focus on craftmanship. It takes both time and some kind of vitalic force to develop something that is meaningfully new and well crafted, and what's happening in music and film currently isn't exactly that.

>>17206267
she saved Lennon from death by beatles worship and made him into something more, her art is predates popart from the 80s. i know it's cool to hate her because she's a gook, and people think she killed the beatles but come on.. be better than 60s and 70s tabloids...

Also another element of this whole thing is that plenty of vitalic shit is happening in "genre" fiction like SF and fantasy. You ever wonder why people like Michael Chabon and Kazuo Ishiguro write exclusively "genre" fiction now? Maybe because it's more demotic, more alive etc.

>>17206285
Your delusion is thinking anyone on this board reads

>>17206326
More profitable

>>17206334
I'm pretty sure The Remains of the Day outsold The Buried Giant by a healthy margin, lol. This is some seriously weak cope from the genre silioing crowd.

>>17206258
>>17206225
/mu/redditors are so cringe.
go listen to your trout mask trash

>>17206346
I don’t think i’ve ever heard naked city or john zorn mentioned on mu

>>17206344
Two books don't make a trend

>>17206358
okay well idiot I was responding to anon's "point" about why literary authors would move on to writing "genre" - anon claimed it is to make money, I am pointing out why this doesn't make sense for the clearest example I cited. SFF is simply where the literary excitement is these days.

WaySheGoesCore is true lit music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnYCkmL-YcU

>>17206366
I love it.

>>17205938
>DFW
actually not art as he has time and time again shown that he isnt concerned with beauty but rather sociological philosohpizing, morals and the """truth"""
>tarantino
autistic savant who has mastered his craft and makes movies purely for the sake of his enjoyment concerned with nothing but his aesthetic drives, the highest of all artistic positions

>>17205956
>4'33" by Revel
Didn't even Google it, cmon

>>17205864
>music continually grows
lol no, there’s still Ben some good things but it’s been artistically neutered since after the 90s

>>17206208
I prefer this
https://youtu.be/smgEUwHoGt0

>>17206999
How can one comment be so wrong

>>17205864
Music died with Stravinsky and film is a secondary artform.

Cinema is unironically deader than literature in 2020.

>>17206091
No country for old men

>>17205864
what you told us, without meaning to:
>"i'm a midwit who is familiar with tv and film, and wholly unfamiliar with art and literature."

/lit/niggers will seethe but Music and film are thriving rn while their medium is dying

>>17206091
>The ArchAndroid
>Pure comedy
>this is happening
>helplessness blues
>You won't get what you want
5 masterpieces in music from the 2010s alone
you're welcome

>>17205864
I unironically wish that literature would become a dead art form in our lifetime.
There is nothing more patrician than dead art forms and dead languages.

Enjoy your capeshit.

>>17207594
>posts anime

>>17205864
Music already ended mid 20th century. Idk about film but it's obviously a way newer artform retard.
>>17205956
This. Popular music is literally the McDonalds of music. It's all formulaic garbage. At its absolute best it's a poor imitation of classical. You're unironically better off listening to rap than any "artsy" pretentious garbage, its a waste of time. At least rap is fun.
>>17205986
Tzadik sucks lmao, Zorn is a hack
>>17207594
All p4k-core garbage. There's nothing even remotely interesting about any of these.

>>17206462
>evaluating an Apollonian art form by Dionysian aesthetic criteria
you are a faggot