/lit/ - Literature

>>17118276
I outgrew nihilism when I was 16.

>>17118285
Ok cool. He's talking about Buddhism.

>>17118276
nothing against buddism, but you picked rather shallow quotes id see my dad telling me when scrolling through his recommended.

>>17118276


LOOK AT THOSE BUFFOONS STARING AT A WALL...

ALL TYPES OF BUDDHISM ARE MERE NIHILISM DISSIMULATED WITH VAIN PSEUDOMYSTICISM.

THE SON OF GOD WAS BORN HUMAN IN THE FLESH, AND THERE ARE STILL NESCIENT CLOWNS PLAYING WITH QUARTZ, WORSHIPING DEMONS, AND STARING AT WALLS.

>>17118292
I don't want it to be deep. but maybe it is shallow. I've just worked very hard at striving for a long time, it's neoliberal cultural logic, that I'm trying to get past, that is why those quotes mattered to me.

I just finished reading Wendy Brown's book on how we marketize ourselves even in non-monetary situations. Shohaku Okumura gave a small lecture on how he was stuck being a 'good boy'. then later a 'good buddhist' for a decade after being ordained, and this is something that i'm working on getting past.

>>17118288
Buddhism is an empty religion, all layers with nothingness at the center

>>17118317
>LOOK AT THOSE BUFFOONS STARING AT A WALL...

Says a buffoon staring at a screen.

>>17118317
Unfathomably based. This is the ultimate redpill on Buddhism.

>>17118325
>we marketize ourselves even in non-monetary situations
A man cannot serve two masters. The bible literally explains everything, go read it.

Bodhidharma is the fucking man. He meditated so hard that his eyes bore holes in the wall in front of him. He was so based he talked to the emperor like he was just some guy. The Diogenes of East Asia.

>>17118326
You're mixing up the teachings of the religion with a description of the religion itself

>>17118326
>layers
maybe you studied from shrek and never fully understood.

>>17118402
"Enlightenment" is just accepting nihilism. Buddhism is just a pretentious circle jerk about nothing. It's almost as bad as /r/atheism

>>17118326
>>17118402
lol zen buddhists agree that buddhism is 'empty' and the four noble truths are 'empty' too. but I don't think that poster knows what they were saying

>>17118411
>shit-talking another religion on Christmas fucking day
Don't you have anything else better to do? Hey, what's the sound of one hand clapping?

Me when I'm fucking your mom.

>>17118380
I think he invented Chan right? Do you have any recommendations to read what he had to say?

>>17118411
Just because atheists jerk themselves off to a trendy interpretation of Buddhism as a stark contrast to their boogeyman Puritanism, doesn't mean Buddhism itself is r/atheism tier. Stop pretending eastern religions aren't religious. They are religious. Buddhists are profoundly faithful religious people, not just mindfulness meditators

>>17118435
Like Diogenes, I don't believe he wrote anything down. But yeah, he is the father of what is known as Zen Buddhism.

>>17118276
I am there with you, have been for a few months now. Recently listened to many talks by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche.

I have many so much to read but I am somewhat of a slow reader. Maybe reading an explanation of the Vajra Prajna Paramita Sutra is good for now.
>>17118411
Your posts don't say anything either, apart from your opinion of "Buddhism bad" veiled in excuses like "its bad because I think it's nihilism!". If you don't believe that's ok, just go on your way.

>>17118276
>"nothing can be gained by extensive study and wide reading. Give them up immediately"

>Steve donoghue

>>17118479
Based. Let go of everything, even your own teaching. Just sit.

>>17118462
gonna try this one

>>17118499
if you meet the buddha on the road kill him

>>17118499
Get of the site then. Stop talking. Stop posting. Just sit and breathe. Forever. Od nothing.

>>17118575
Renounce renunciation.
This is something I really heard from a Rinpoche, too.

>>17118276
I've only begun my studies, and i'm doing it for freedom and happiness, not to impress others.

>>17118575
>doesn't even know what 'letting go' means.

>>17118604
cool. What is the name of your type of meditation? curious what others are doing out there.

>>17118575
I am terribly addicted to the internet lol

>>17118276
I’ve read intro texts like the Gita, Upanishad, and Dhammapada but I haven’t been able to meaningfully integrate Buddhism into my life yet

>>17118317
Fool. Read The Doctrine of Awakening and the Dhammapada.

>>17118285
How did you do that? You became dishonest basically. Anyone who seriously looked for the truth would most likely remain a nihilist. The only reason you "grew out" of nihilism is because you were too weak to stick to your guns when other people who were also weak told you "only teenagers are nihilists!" ironically you are being immature in this way. You let name calling and petty insults affect you.

I am a Chan/Pure Land practitioner. I have recently started taking up Medicine Buddha practices in the morning and Amitabha practices at sunset. This includes nianfo, sutra recitation, prostrations (which I love), and visualization practices. I try meditation, but my mental illness makes it very hard to sit, so I do prostrations instead. Today I came into some money, I'm going to buy the Avatamsaka Sutra and study that. Anyone have any experience with that sutra.

>>17118876
Keep trying to meditate, it willl train your mind to let you keep still. Reprogram.

>>17118902
I do visualizations of the Eastern and Western Pure Lands, and prostrations, which are both forms of meditation. I just don't do Silent Illumination because of my symptoms. It's hard to do that hearing voices.

>>17118276
Asian philosophy is for beta males.

>>17119072
Ah yes, the beta male classics, Sun Tzu, Musashi and Bruce Lee

Buddha pill is the final pill. im deep into mahayana and it's been great.

>>17118850
You write like a 16 year old who honestly thinks he has it all figured it out. Every now and then you ask yourself “how are people so dumb if I’m so smart?”. Don’t worry, you’ll grow out of it.

>>17119247
Care to relate what you've learned so far? What is your favorite sutra? Do you have a Buddha or Bodhisattva you venerate in particular?

>>17119247
Enjoy it if it makes you happy. Buddhism is nothing if not cope: the religion, though.

>>17119257
And you write like someone who thinks he knows another's mind.
t. Huineng

>>17118276
This thread is really funny because not a week ago i saw some person here predict that this would be the next religious trend on lit

>>17119268
>>17118850
kek

>>17119119
>Bruce Lee
5ft 7 ½ (171.5 cm)

>>17119272
It's been the new craze for a while now after people got tired of gnosticism. Looking forward to the day /lit/ unironically starts embracing Islam.

Better than if there were thousands
of meaningless words is
one meaningful word
that on hearing brings peace

>>17119512
me already embrace islam. me name hongo bunglo. me have four wife and eigh tteeth

>>17118317
>christcucks complain about being attacked every time they make a thread
>come to threads that aren't relevant to their laughably retarded religion to make shitposts like this
This is why people don't like Christians.

>>17119247
Why Mahayana?

>>17118276
you faggots make fun of "le desert demons" and reject Christianity, and then turn around it praise Buddhism? You people are beyond human intervention.

"But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants."
- Mat. 12:6-7

>>17119725
>>17119711

>>17119316
He’s Asian, short for an Asian would be lower than 5ft

>>17119272
>>17119512
Buddhism is unironically too simple and yet too high IQ for /lit/.

>>17118430
>what's the sound of one hand clapping?
>Me when I'm fucking your mom.
Please make this a /lit/ meme to blast irritating christians off eastern religiom threads.

>>17119725
"There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Under these conditions it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”

“But, Master Gotama, in what way is there the preservation of truth? How does one preserve truth? We ask Master Gotama about the preservation of truth.”

“If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My faith is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth."
— Majjhima Nikaya

>>17118876
The Avatamsaka is very dense, at most times impenetrable by the discriminating mind. If you're set on reading it you can use Hsuan Hua's commentary if you don't have a teacher who is guiding you.
http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas_contents.asp.html

>>17118448
>not just mindfulness meditator
prove that though. so every buddhist today is an atheist meditation obsessed fag but somehow thats not 'real buddhism'?

>>17120423
>so every buddhist today is an atheist meditation obsessed fag
prove that though

>>17118613
yeah it means shitposting on 4chan

>>17120426
literally every buddhist online, even those robed monks in the east are nihilist fags. have you ever watched a ken wheeler video? muh original budhism

>>17120430
>ken wheeler

>>17120430
Either you never bothered to learn what buddhism is about, or you don't know what nihilism means, or both
Either way fuck off brainlet

>>17118850
This is the most cringe post I've ever seen on this board holy fucking shit

Please have sex

>>17120430
My god you are either trolling or some kind of eldritch tier retard.

Brainlet replies

>>17120430
>nihilist
a good thing.

>>17119512>>17119247

>unironically starts embracing Islam.
Mahayana is the Islam of Buddhism.

>>17118876
>prostrations (which I love)
bet you do, gay boy. OOH AMI DADDY

>>17118876
Am I wrong in assuming Pure Land is just Christianity for people who like oriental exotism?

>>17120651
there are certain vague similarities but you could also say Pure Land is Buddhist Islam or some other such comment, wouldn't really mean much

>>17120665
I mean that it substitutes Jesus for Amitabha but in the end it's still a religion based almost exclusively on faith and for which salvation comes from an externally transcendent divine being. One of the appeals of Buddhism is the fact that Gautama repeatedly stressed the importance of personal experience and 'testing' the Dharma yourself, but I don't find this in Pure Land. Maybe I'm wrong

>>17118276
Ain't s buddhist but still based, the guy who wrote the hagakure.

>>17120672>>17120665

Historically, Mahayanists have re-written the dharma, and made up the narrative that the false dharma was given by the Buddha to the useful idiots, ie sravakas, and the real dharma was given by the Buddha to the true chosen people, ie Mahayanists.
Just like Muslims did with the Jewish novel, I mean the Bible.

>>17120672
First you gotta keep in mind that Pure Land isn't a monolithic thing. In China, the practice of nianfo and visualization meditation via the concept of a Pure Buddha Land was very much integrated into Mahayana itself. What the Pure Land even refers to is contentious.

In Japan it developed into Shin which is closer to what you're getting at re: primacy of faith in Other Power, but even within that there's plenty of debate over whether Faith or Practice (nianfo) matters most. In Shin, the development of "settled faith" is something experienced. It's not merely just a case of saying I have faith therefore I have faith. It's felt not said.

>>17120748
You only need a teacher for vajrayana and arguably zen

>>17120691
>>17120730

It seems there are more Buddhist traditions than christian traditions at this point. It seems complicated and hard to pick one, and even between each one there is using a teacher's teacher usually from Japan or vietnam that splits it up even more. It is frustrating to start out seeing them all. There's a Soto school out of Indiana I'm going to try. But lol I'm white abd pretentious and would feel better telling my upper middle class friends I'm studying in the Himalayas

>>17120430
>ken wheeler
are you fucking serious?
he is one the biggest /p/ meme

>>17120672
>>17120730
As far as I'm concerned the Pure Land isn't a "heaven", it's a state of mind achieved by humans, a form of samadhi attained thru the specific practice of nianfo (buddha-mindfulness). To quote Bodhidharma: if your mind is pure, all buddha-lands are pure. Amitabha isn't a Jesus figure but a symbol of specific aspects of the Absolute. In the same way Allah is known as an-Nūr (The Light) and al-Bāqī (The Everlasting), Amitabha (Infinite Light) is also known as Amitayus (Everlasting Life).

>>17120753
Why pick anything before knowing much about them? If you were a medieval Chinaman you'd have to pick the first teacher you came across and learn what you could from him, but you live in postmodern America, you have free access to more Buddhist scripture than the patriarchs ever had.

>>17120760
>Pure Land isn't a "heaven", it's a state of mind
This is a minority view, most laymen do interpret PL as heaven. I seem to recall Ven. Sheng Yen saying something along the lines of "this world is a Pure Land" though

>>17120651
Yes.

>>17120754
Yes, he is. Whenever you see someone shilling for "Advaita Vedanta" on here, remember that they also consider Ken Wheeler to be an enlightened master and a profound guru. Yes, Ken Wheeler, the cameras and magnetism guy.

>>17120760
>>17120672
Most Buddhists don't follow the strict "Oriental Calvinism" posited by the early Pure Land Sutras. Rather, Amitabha is seen as essentially offering a way to ensure an even better, more enlightenment-feasible rebirth. You can still accumulate merit in this life, however, and most people within the "Pure Land Complex" (so to speak) reject the idea that you can't get enlightened now, in this life. But, if you succeed, it's no skin off of your bones if you did Pure Land practices, because now you're enlightened and will become a Bodhisattva, so you don't need to go to the Pure Land (Amitabha's is Sukhavati).

The Pure Land is a place of ideal conditions to achieve enlightenment, but it is not enlightenment. There's still work to be done inside of the Pure Land.

>>17120908
There is naturally a large gulf between esoteric understanding and how something is grasped by the masses. The problem some people have is they can't accept that both these things can exist side by side. You don't tell an old peasant lady on her deathbed that the Pure Land is a state of mind or a metaphor for the extinction of self. If it alleviates her suffering, it's done its job.

>>17120769
They do an online meditation 6am each morning. Sadly the closest Sangha to me is return 3hour drive rn. I do hope to move in the future.

Too much information out there has been a problem

>>17120922
>the strict "Oriental Calvinism" posited by the early Pure Land Sutras
posited where?

>>17118276
>“If you study a lot because you are worried that others will think badly of you for being ignorant and you'll feel stupid, this is a serious mistake.”
Sounds like just a rewording of the "I'm smart but I never studied for tests so didn't do well in school" cope.

>>17120956
Your posts sounds like a rewording of "I'm retarded"

>>17120958
Nice, did your phone you posted this from come from a lifetime staring at beads?

>>17120945
As I understand it, one of the three key Pure Land Sutras (The Longer and Shorter Sukhavativyuha Sutras and the Amitayurdhyana Sutra) posits something akin to Total Depravity, wherein humanity is just fucked and no one can get out anymore. Buddhism as an endeavor is essentially pointless, so we have to rely on Amitabha. This means that accumulating merit in this life is pointless.

But from what I've seen, most Pure Land thinkers and practitioners reject this. Shinran for example still encourages people to meditate, read sutras, etc. I also know that when Pure Land was introduced, there were various "pseudo-Abrahamic" movements that posited that no, literally all that you need is to chant Amitabha's name, and they'd go around murdering people and burning down monasteries for trying anything else. These were soundly rejected.

I may be off base, as I'm not that well read into the intricacies of Pure Land, but I've never seen anything to indicate that Pure Land is "anti-arminian" to use a Western term, rejecting the idea that you can do anything about your situation other than beg for help.

I practices pure land buddhism for two days, on that second day I had the revelation that I have already become a bodhisattva in the future and exerted karma retroactively through time to first heal and then guide myself onto the right path that ensures my own self actualization. After this I stopped the practice. We are all going to make it.

>>17120987
You sound confused, go get some air

>>17120990
I think you're mistaken in attributing these ideas to the sutras. I've read the Sukhavativyuha Sutras and don't recall seeing anything like that in there. There's an entire section detailing how people of various abilities should act in order to reborn in Sukhavati. This absolute reliance on the Other Power is a much later Japanese creation, and itself not really a true thing, like you said it's one of many heretical misunderstandings that arose among medieval peasantry. Shinran's out of context quote that "if a good man can get be saved, how much moreso an evil man" caused a lot of carnage too.

>>17121021
I'm almost certainly incorrect in my citations then. I have seen such comparisons, but again I can't source them.

The point is, however, and that I see you seem to agree with, that Pure Land orthopraxy does not say that doing anything but chanting Amitabha Buddha's name is bad, nor does it encourage not doing things to the exclusion of chanting Amitabha Buddha's name. Meditation (other than chanting Amitabha Buddha's name) is good and should be done.

>>17120993
Congratulations. Everyday hoping it works for us all

>>17121105
it's slow for now, or in our perception at least, but it should become exponential right?

>>17118276
>”Nothing can be gained by extensive study and wide reading. Give them up immediately.”


No wonder there’s no great scientists that are Buddhist

>>17121061
Chanting is a particular interpretation of the Mahayana term 念佛 nianfo, a translation of the sanskrit term buddhānusmṛti (literally buddha recollection or mindfulness). It was developed in Mahayana as a mediation technique and the Pure Land sutras provided content to be visualized or contemplated (the imagery itself being intentionally fantastical, existing beyond human conception). This technique and the concept of Pure Land is found throughout the Mahayana sutras and was practiced by many alongside other techniques. The Pure Land school, naturally focused on it above other forms.

Chanting as the main form of nianfo took hold in Japan. The Japanese word for nianfo is nembutsu, which is now synonymous with chanting Amida's name. The reason for this development was that Honen a student of the Mahayana strove to find a form of practice suited to the feudal peasant. Remember, that zen meditation was an aristocratic past-time. Peasants didn't have the time to meditate for hours daily. Think of Honen's nembutsu, like the five obligatory prayers of Islam. It provides a way for the layman to direct himself toward the Absolute, whether or not they know why they do what they're doing. Of course a great deal of necessary upaya arose around the practice, developed by Honen from his readings of the Pure Land sutras. Which lead to peasant understandings like if you repeat X a certain amount of times, you gain rebirth. The successor of Shinran, Rennyo wrote letters that were read aloud to the illiterate at meetings. He presented Pure Land practice in a way that was comprehensible to medieval peasants. The problem arises when modern westerners take their writings literally.

Some might dismiss nembutsu chanting as silly or not in line with true Buddhism. But imo Honen and his successors created a form of practice that alleviated the suffering of countless impoverished men and women, providing them with faith, a powerful bulwark against dismay and anguish, and ending suffering is what the Mahayana is all about.

>>17121127
This is a great example of out of context misinterpretation. Q. Who was Dogen talking to. Monastics.

>>17121127
You also spam eastern philosophy threads on /his/ with your phoneposting. Why are you so obsessed?

>>17121139
>implying that there exists Christcucks that are not obsessed
One of the religious duties of Cucktianity is literally to spread it around to as many people as humanly possible. I’d be surprised if a Christcuck wasn’t obsessed

>>17118876
If this isn’t a LARP, would you tell me what convinced you to be a pure land Buddhist? Do you believe in it as a metaphor? It seems there’s no evidence for Amitabha actually existing, or any good works by apologists. We can’t even use metaphysics since he’s not really a god. Any books on pure land apologetics?

Also try meditating as a group. That makes concentration easier.

>>17121157
I’m atheist but I have a greater respect for Christianity. One can be atheist and like Christianity, you know.

>>17121165
Also I’m convinced now that 99% of anti-Christian posters on here are faggots, considering how many of them I see on /lit/.

>>17120922
>Whenever you see someone shilling for "Advaita Vedanta" on here, remember that they also consider Ken Wheeler to be an enlightened master and a profound guru
Not true, I argue for Advaita and I think Buddhism is gay and illogical but even I often consider Ken to be a kook.

>>17121165
I have respect for Christianity, but I loathe 4chan "christians" with every fiber of my being.

>>17121207
I’m pretty sure most of them aren’t really Christian just like me. They’re just there to shitpost against other religions.

What qualifies as 'sexual misconduct' in buddhist doctrine?

>>17121594
for larpers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexuality#Lay_Buddhism

for the aryans https://suttacentral.net/an7.50/en/sujato

“Brahmin, if anyone should be rightly said to live the celibate life unbroken, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred, full and pure, it’s me.”

“But what, Master Gotama, is a break, taint, stain, or mar in celibacy?”

“Firstly, an ascetic or brahmin who claims to be perfectly celibate does not mutually engage in sex with a female. However, they consent to being anointed, massaged, bathed, and rubbed by a female. They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying. This is a break, taint, stain, or mar in celibacy. This is called one who lives the celibate life impurely, tied to the fetter of sex. They’re not freed from rebirth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re not freed from suffering, I say.

Furthermore, an ascetic or brahmin who claims to be perfectly celibate does not mutually engage in sex with a female. Nor do they consent to massage and bathing. However, they giggle and play and have fun with females. …

they gaze into a female’s eyes. …

they listen through a wall or rampart to the sound of females laughing or chatting or singing or crying. …

they recall when they used to laugh, chat, and have fun with females …

they see a householder or their child amusing themselves, supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation. …

They don’t see a householder or their child amusing themselves, supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation. However, they live the celibate life wishing to be reborn in one of the orders of gods. They think: ‘By this precept or observance or mortification or spiritual life, may I become one of the gods!’ They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying. This is a break, taint, stain, or mar in celibacy. This is called one who lives the celibate life impurely, tied to the fetter of sex. They’re not free from rebirth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re not free from suffering, I say.

As long as I saw that these seven sexual fetters—or even one of them—had not been given up in me, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.

But when I saw that these seven sexual fetters—every one of them—had been given up in me, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans. Knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My freedom is unshakable; this is my last rebirth; now there are no more future lives.’”

When he said this, the brahmin Jāṇussoṇi said to the Buddha, “Excellent, Master Gotama! Excellent! … From this day forth, may Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

>>17121594
Cheating, rape, without mutual consent, purposefully being degenerate (ex piss drinking, shit eating), etc. Anything that promotes more loss of control/mindless hedonism to the persons involved. Buddhism is all about control of the mind and not being a degenerate. Buddha understands lay buddhists inability to let go of sensual pleasures like sex due to social norms and family duty and so on. But that does not mean you shouldn't be mindful of your sexual actions and intentions.

What does that leaves you? Generally speaking, sex for procreation, for mutual love in comfort (romantic, not degenerate), for specific duties where you are in position to help the other(no, not that you idiot).

>>17121131
>>Chanting is a particular interpretation of the Mahayana term 念佛 nianfo, a translation of the sanskrit term buddhānusmṛti (literally buddha recollection or mindfulness)
Chanting is forbidden to monks btw.

>>17121646
So even thoughts of sex are considered impure.
Did the Buddha give his followers any tips to stop getting horny?

>>17121665
Meditation, keep rigid/busy schedule with minimal free time and minimal sleep

>>17118850
Are you the edgiest man this side of the galaxy?

>>17121663
Well theres is a early sutra that speaks about buddha teaching a king way to meditate by reciting namo buddhaya and counting beads using rudraksha. Iforgot which sutra it is

>>17121663
irrelevant since it was a practice developed for laymen

Bodhidharma:

Chanting and invoking are worlds apart
chanting is done with the mouth
invoking is done with the mind
and because invoking comes from the mind
it's called the door to awareness.

>>17121698
Can I entirely kill my sex drive with meditation?

>>17122071
Once you get to the streamentry path and follow through.

>>17122093
>Once you get to the streamentry path
How hard is that? Are there any steps to follow or is it a matter of meditating until you know you're there?

>>17122096
Learn buddhism. Meditating is a key component but it's just a tool without actual understanding.

>>17121127
This quote makes sense in context: 5th century China had a partial, confused, untranslated transmission of Buddhism from the East. Monastics spent their time being scholastics and translators and overintellectualized Buddhism. So in response you get a quote that severe about not studying.

Redpill me on Shingon

Is it just Japanese vajrayana?

>>17122121
>Learn buddhism
I am, I'm currently reading some sutras from the pali canon and I've familiarized myself with the four noble truths, noble eightfold path and other such concepts. So far what's missing from my understanding is the actual practice that could connect the doctrine to my own life. Since buddhism is often said to be a very practical religion I guess this will be elaborated upon in some sutras, but for now I haven't come across discourses from the Buddha pertaining to tangible methods.

Being working class my life is devoted to making rich people comfortable. I stocked shelves for years at 6am so stores would be ready for ppl to shop, mowed lawns where they doubled their house size with renovations while I can't afford one house, delivered food so they stay inside.

It seems the only way out is suicide or zen buddhism

>>17122157
https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/13506/what-are-the-suttas-in-which-the-buddha-provides-instruction-on-how-to-meditate

>>17122157
Watch a 5 min clip on how to do samatha, then do vipassana or shikantaza for a few years

>>17122206
>>17122217
Thank you anons.

>>17122137
idk much about it but the great Japanese historical novelist Shiba Ryotaro wrote a novel about Kukai, the founder of Shingon, bringing Esoteric Buddhism from China to Japan

Kukai:
>That which is beyond speech and conception pervades the whole universe.
>Its manifestations are infinite in number. Though raindrops are many, they are of the same water. Though rays of light are not one, they are of the same body.

>>17122196
how can a wagie spare the necessary hours needed for Zen?

>>17122196
You’re not a Buddhist, you’re just a cucking fuckold

>>17118276
Why would a real Bhuddist be on 4chan?

>>17122246
I can't so I'm working on quitting
>>17122246
You're right. so I want to stop all that meaningless work or I'll die having never lived hardly at all

>>17118285
>>17118326
Read Religion and Nothingness. Buddhism is anti-nihilistic, indeed resolves the problem of nihilism. Only ignorant Westerners mischaracterize it as a nihilistic religion.

>>17122157
>So far what's missing from my understanding is the actual practice that could connect the doctrine to my own life. Since buddhism is often said to be a very practical religion I guess this will be elaborated upon in some sutras, but for now I haven't come across discourses from the Buddha pertaining to tangible methods.
that's mindfulness stuff, which i the bridge between sila and samadhi. Mindfulness is basically thinking about the dhamma all the fucking time, which is why it's not possible to have a job and be a buddhist.

Satipatthana Meditation: A Practice Guide
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=32B14967374AED138CD35BE1F6A4C01F

Mindfulness of breathing : a practice guide and translations
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=6FA32D884CA890FA48927DA10D869360

>>17122217>>17122235

>then do vipassana or shikantaza for a few years
that's wrong samadhi

>>17122303
>thinking about the dhamma all the fucking time
Does that mean doing nothing but thing of the dharma? Or just keep the dharma in mind during all the actions you undertake?

>>17119316
Based Bruce Lee. Same height as me. Really the ideal size for a man. Too much taller and you become ungainly.

>>17122246
>>17122289
Your work is mindless so make it mindful. Pay attention while you're working. Pay attention to your actions. Stocking up those canned food on the shelves is a miracle in itself if you pay attention to how that motion got started and how it ends.
Buddhism doesn't require complete physical isolation. It helps but it can just as easily be done while working on those daily jobs. Mindfulness is learning how to pay attention. Read some intro buddhist works that introduce 4noble truths 8foldpath. Then read on dhammapada and try to understand what's being said on how to think and act. Dhammapada and 4nobletruhs don't require mastery of buddhist philosophy, just bit of thinking and common sense. That alone will take you far into buddhist way.

>>17121665
Just starve urself bro

>>17122377
Dumb post

>>17122313
Idk if I'm wrong. U do the single point samatha thing for practice for awhile, then you go to being aware of thoughts and either go down the Soto or vipassana paths

>>17122349
More importantly pay attention to your thoughts and how it influence your actions and beliefs. Pay attention to how those thoughts come to you.

Dhammapada is a masterpiece imo

>>17122349
This is true thanks.

>>17118276
buddhism is just another religion to control masses with. buddhists have a long history of persecuting and killing. also dogen faked his lineage and is just yet another fraud guru, just a very "successful" in that it ("dogen zen") brings in the MONEY by BUCKETS.
Buddha was a zen master tho, buddha dharma aka chan aka zen means freedom arising from seeing (your nature, enlightenment).
The Gateless Gate (once BANNED by buddhists), Blue Cliff Record, and Dahui's Shōbōgenzō are collections of some actual teachings of the buddha dharma and of real zen masters.
The Recorded Sayings of Zen Master Joshu by James Green is another good starting point.

>>17122418
and btw meditation will get you like halfway there at best, no use overdoing it. Like every zen master warns about it. D.T. Suzuki's
The Zen Doctrine of No Mind for example is a pretty damning documents, straight from the sixth patriarch of Zen, Huineng.

for example:
> But serenely reflecting or contemplating on the purity of the Mind has a suicidal effect on life, and Hui-neng vehemently protested against this type of meditation.

>>17122093
What's stopping a layman from doing his best to reach stream entry and then not continuing further once he's reached it?
Since a stream enterer is guaranteed liberation, I mean.

>>17122578
I'm fascinated by Buddhism, but talk like this is baffling to me. No offense. Like "guaranteed liberation", do people believe this sort of thing?

>>17122578
Stream entry is the lowest stage to liberation. That's when you're basically a layman. Higher up the chain, your bindings to the lay world or material/sensual world are let go one by one.

>>17119512
>gnosticism
it's shit with Christianity attached to it anyway.

>>17122673
Buddhism is a very structured religion(and to many also a structured philosophy). Thus when there is talks of "guaranteed" it usually means in a structural way. For the buddhist, that could mean once you delete the illwill/hate for others, you're left with compassion for others. In other words "guaranteed." If you remove the foundations of the house, the house is guaranteed to fall. Buddhist understanding of the world is built structurally so that they can take apart parts at a time and once certain amounts are removed, the rest fall away naturally.

>Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
> Never forget how swiftly this life will be over, like a flash of summer lightning or the wave of a hand. Now that you have the opportunity to practice dharma, do not waste a single moment on anything else.

>>17122238

>the great Self embraces in itself each and all existences - Kūkai

>>17122717
Only humans attain enlightenment therefore if you practice it is guaranteed to happen to us :-)

>>17122673
>Like "guaranteed liberation", do people believe this sort of thing?
It makes complete sense, what are you on about?
The path to nirvana is like a stream, and once you get a glimpse of nirvana itself, you've entered that stream and cannot be removed from it. It's that simple.

>>17122877
i get the analogy, though i don't share your faith in it being an irrevocable process

>>17122928
Obviously if you "entered the stream" then went back to jacking off and watching TV all day it probably wouldn't apply, but the idea seems to be that becoming a stream enterer changes the way you perceive the world in such a way that you won't fall back into these unwholesome behaviors anyway. I think that's the idea (rather than "oh now that you've attained sotapanna you can go back to being a degenerate and you'll be fine")

>>17122137
>Shingon
is that from narita?

>>17122418
>>17122459
oh yeah, and following someone's example, orders, doctrines etc. is waste of time concerning enlightenment. Following advice of sutras and precepts might make you a nice and mostly harmless person, but that's about it.

As Joshu (aka Zhaozhou) said:
>Buddha is passion and suffering; passion and suffering are Buddha.

>>17123466
Then what should be done to work towards enlightenment?

>>17123472
As enlightenment is just realizing your everyday mind, it's not that any particular work will bring you any closer to it. It's not something that can be prescribed.
>As for those who try to understand through other people's words, they are striking at the moon with a stick; scratching a shoe, whereas it is the foot that itches. What concern have they with the truth?
Even so, since incompetent teachers are commonplace, I suggest reading what the OG masters wrote. Gateless Gate is pretty short and really goes to the core. The excerpt is also from it.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/mumonkan.htm (cringe url but the translation is really good)
http://home.pon.net/wildrose/gateless.htm (more literal and jankier translation)
Anyway if you want something more.. concrete, check out Instant Zen by Foyan and maybe Huangbo. Terebess has lotsa resources, zenmarrow too.

>>17122673
It's a religion like any other. Study it without thinking it's the ultimate truth and just take what works for you.

>>17123472
>>17124188
Also, just personally, this https://www.susanblackmore.uk/lectures/darwin-and-humanity-can-we-rid-the-mind-of-god/ (and some other article of hers about memes that I'm way too baked to find now) put some things in perspective that ultimately brought me over later.

>>17119257
Not at all, the reason people say things like "nihilism is for teenagers" is because they are insecure, they think people won't like them if they are nihilists, which may be true but it says nothing about nihilism itself only peoples' fears of it. I don't think I have anything figured out, but nihilism makes sense as a default placeholder until some evidence or proof arrives that says otherwise. I'm not going to believe anything willy nilly. It's silly to say you "grow out of nihilism" or that nihilism is for teenagers.

>>17120524
You're a closed minded idiot

>>17121722
No, I just want honest thought not name calling or debasing something not on its merits but by likening it to something e.g. "for teenagers". That's not arguing it's just cheap and immature

You can say that about ANYTHING you don't like, it's dishonest and only shows your own fears it says nothing about the ideas themselves.

>>17121646
Why do you call laymen larpers?
Sexual misconduct consists in adultery and sex that causes harm to others.

>>17118876
>>17118902
>>17118944
Based and praxispilled

>>17121160
Cringe and theorypillled

>>17122673
Everyone will eventually achieve enlightenment, either in this life or in a future life. "A future life" can refer to many, many, many, MANY future lives. But it is an assured eventuality.

>>17124548
He isn't calling the laity LARPers, he's calling the Mahayana. He's doing the "theravada is just buddhist protestantism" meme. It's completely wrong, and he's dumb for it.

I am a Christian with a non-spiritual interest in Buddhism. What is a good jumping off point for someone who knows absolutely nothing?

>>17125010
What the Buddha Taught. This is a basic entry to the Theravada tradition for Westerners who don't know what a karma or Bodhisattva are. Then, read the Heart Sutra (Red Pine's translation is the best, he has commentary by historical masters). The Heart Sutra is, in theory, the Mahayana equivalent of the Nicene Creed, but that's a comparison that will only take you so far. The Heart Sutra is an entrance to the more galaxy-brained Mahayana thought ("are you really saying that nothing ends, and nothing begins, it just changes how it exists?!" "yes").

What are the differences between each branch of Buddhism and why would I follow one over another?

>>17125403
>Theravada (Teachings of elders)
Mainly a monastic order religion, closest to early buddhist teachings. Lays just accumulate karma by contributing to the monasteries/doing good. Enlightenment happens slow and gradually.

>Mahayana (Greater Vehicle)
While monastic role is important, its now expanded so that layman can take part in the Buddhist religion much more. Everyone is already enlightened, they just need to be aware of it.

>Vajrayana (Thunderbolt Vehicle)
While it contains both monastic and lay practices, it also contains a special teacher-student relation that allows the student to get fastracked on the path of enlightenment via esoteric means to awaken the mind. The esoteric ways are only to be taught via teacher-student because the methods are considered strange/dangerous/etc. Lay teachers exists here for lay followers.

Is there any difference between the Buddhist nirvana and an atheist's view of nothing after death?

>claims enlightenment
>still doesn't know if whether he should teach other people

>suffering, suffering bla bla
>just live moderately, bro
>dont forget to pay a visit to my places and remember my teachings

>most sacred place of pilgrimage is literally a tree planted by an anglo in the 19th century

oh no we got too cocky larper bros, buddhist is just ancient psychology

>>17125614
In the sense that consciousness does not continue after death, yes, there is a similarity. The divergence is that nirvana is not annihilation, as there is a continuation after death (even if you don't parinirvana, there is). There is no "one" consciousness in Buddhist thought, it's not a thing, it's a series of pieces of a process that only have any existence because of their relation to that process. Rather, there's just mental phenomena. Mental phenomena stops at death, but a human is not just mental phenomena. So, what continues after parinirvana? All that you are that doesn't stop when you die. A Western atheist would deny that there is anything else but consciousness, whereas a Buddhist would not (and would explicitly say that that is wrong).

One could also make the point that nirvana is a state fundamentally different from samsara; or rather, since you're already in nirvana, but are also in samsara, being solely in nirvana is a state fundamentally different from how you are now. So, the entire question is really moot, because nirvana doesn't play by the same rules as the world we live in.

>>17124188
>>As enlightenment is just realizing your everyday mind,
For hippies.

>>17123466
>oh yeah, and following someone's example, orders, doctrines etc. is waste of time concerning enlightenment. Following advice of sutras and precepts might make you a nice and mostly harmless person, but that's about it.
>
>As Joshu (aka Zhaozhou) said:
>>Buddha is passion and suffering; passion and suffering are Buddha.
100% false.

>>17122459
>The Zen Doctrine of No Mind for example is a pretty damning documents, straight from the sixth patriarch of Zen, Huineng.
So nothing about buddhism.

>>17118430
I never understood this question in regards to its depth, one hand is able to clap by slapping the fingers against the palm

I recommend the record of linji and Rinzai zen in general, it’s most as popular in the west because it focuses on actual contemplation and isn’t “loose” at all, by this I mean, answering the koan questions wrong often resulted in linji beating his students and punching them daily. Constant shouting, etc.

It comes from a place of deep study of Buddhism and deep contemplation, Rinzai I mean. It’s an extracted essence and methodology.

I think it’s more often ignored besides a few koans because it’s too difficult for the Type of westerner attracted by the aesthetic and perception of zen they have.

>>17118276
>nice comfy robes
>modern meditation cushion
>no distractions
>no expectations but I sit there and meditate

Man. I would get so much done. Probably have kundalini up and running within a year.

>>17118850
this entire argument is predicated on the notion truth is worth looking for.

>>17125910
The entire point of Zen is getting around the ineffability of reality. Language can only approximate. Rather than the koan having any sort of semantic meaning, it's an arbitrary assortment of sounds strewn together to lead you to some conclusion achieved precisely be leaving behind conceptuality. The actual literal sound of one hand clapping is irrelevant.

"Does a dog have Buddha nature" is a similar one, that like the one-hand clapping has an actual literal answer (it's "yes"), but has a "hidden" answer that is only achieved by abandoning conceptuality and reasoning ("emptiness").

>>17118276
What's with the stains on the wall at chest level?

Is that a century's worth of snot?

Do they donk their scalps into the wall at the end of each session?

>>17118326
W*stoid-tier understanding.

>>17118276
OP is pissed off at God because he will never be a woman so he COPEs by being a nihilistic buddhist who stares at a wall

>>17119263
what isnt cope

Why is Buddhism so anti-fun?

>The Buddhist games list is a list of games that Gautama Buddha is reputed to have said that he would not play and that his disciples should likewise not play, because he believed them to be a 'cause for negligence'.[1] This list dates from the 6th or 5th century BCE and is the earliest known list of games.[2]
>1. Games on boards with 8 or 10 rows. This is thought to refer to ashtapada and dasapada respectively, but later Sinhala commentaries refer to these boards also being used with games involving dice.[2]
>2. The same games played on imaginary boards. Akasam astapadam was an ashtapada variant played with no board, literally "astapadam played in the sky". A correspondent in the American Chess Bulletin identifies this as likely the earliest literary mention of a blindfold chess variant.[5]
>3. Games of marking diagrams on the floor such that the player can only walk on certain places. This is described in the Vinaya Pitaka as "having drawn a circle with various lines on the ground, there they play avoiding the line to be avoided". Rhys Davids suggests that it may refer to parihāra-patham, a form of hop-scotch.
>4. Games where players either remove pieces from a pile or add pieces to it, with the loser being the one who causes the heap to shake (similar to the modern game pick-up sticks).
>5. Games of throwing dice.
>6. "Dipping the hand with the fingers stretched out in lac, or red dye, or flour-water, and striking the wet hand on the ground or on a wall, calling out 'What shall it be?' and showing the form required—elephants, horses, &c."
>7. Ball games.
>8. Blowing through a pat-kulal, a toy pipe made of leaves.
>9. Ploughing with a toy plough.
>10. Playing with toy windmills made from palm leaves.
>11. Playing with toy measures made from palm leaves.
>12. Playing with toy carts.
>13. Playing with toy bows.
>14. Guessing at letters traced with the finger in the air or on a friend's back.
>15. Guessing a friend's thoughts.
>16. Imitating deformities.
>Although the modern game of chess had not been invented at the time the list was made, earlier chess-like games such as chaturaji may have existed

>>17126870
It's Poo Puritanism what did you expect.

>>17118285
Nihilism is the only thing that makes sense.

>>17126018
Sure but what's the point of even arguing then, may as well just say believe whatever you want for whatever dumbass reason you want. As a nihilist I say sure, do that if you want but if your arguments aren't based in truth then what is the point of making them? There is nothing to be said in that case.

>>17126870
Buddhism is life-denying at its core no matter how buddhist modernists want to twist it. For the serious follower it was never about ethics beyond how those allow you to get a better rebirth or counter past karma, even its famous compassion is compassion for a thing that suffers and has no hope of redemption unlike the practitioner. The world is suffering and there's nothing to do but escape it. The sutras provide a great example with the house on fire analogy, in another one they also say buddhists should seek release from life as if their hair was on fire and they had to put it out. I get how it's become popular due to being repackaged and not telling people the non-negotiable core of the teachings until they're ready, or ignoring it in the case of most modern watered down variants of the teaching, but it's still centered on a fundamentally depressing view of everything where you don't even have the release of permanent death to look forward to. I don't dislike buddhists as people, but I feel their religion is dehumanizing in a deep, if subtle way.

>>17126018
>buddha's whole philosophy is centered around the 4 noble 'truths'
btfo

Read The Record Of Linji (or the gateless gate or hakuin's collected essays)
If you understand anything at all, you are lying to yourself. Stop now.

After the truth that you've no idea what you're doing hits you in the face, read Meido Moore's book on Zen (The Rinzai Zen Way)

In it there are all the needed instructions for you to start practicing Zen at home. Meditate everyday and put your whole self into it. This means that meditation should never be comfortable, not in a physical sense, but in terms of focus. Don't make it yet another way to sit back and relax. You are not relaxing. You are concentrating your whole existence upon the act of meditation.

I'll say it again, practice meditation every day. It is better to never read a word of the buddha but meditate every day than to read the whole Tripitaka without meditating a minute of your life. The teachings of all the Buddhas are meaningless if they do not become intuitive to you, if they do not appear natural. The only way to make it so is to meditate by counting or holding a koan in mind.

A good analogy for the level of complete concentration that is necessary for zen is trying to shave your balls with a non-safety razor. There is no room for other thoughts, only you and the knife. In Zen there are you and the count, or you and the koan.

I hope I gave you enough to start in the right direction. If you want to know something more about how the monks go exactly about doing this, read D.T. Suzuki's The Training of The Buddhist Monk, then it's all you need.

>>17126989
but all those things seem based AF tho

>>17119725
Shut the fuck up, Crosscuck

>>17126870
This is the equivalent of Old Testament directions not to eat things that touch the ground with their belly or crustaceans or not to dress with animal skin and plant fibre clothes at the same time.

Take them as you take the others

>>17121165
Jokes on you, most atheists are crypto-Christians

>>17127044
Yep. Atheism is literally as much a leap of faith as deism.

>I've decided a First Mover is bullshit based on my gut feelings and YT videos featuring midwit authors.
>Christcuks BTFO!

>>17126997
>I'll say it again, practice meditation every day. It is better to never read a word of the buddha but meditate every day than to read the whole Tripitaka without meditating a minute of your life.
You can't see the truth without a buddha's instruction, so you'll never see it by not reading the tripitaka.

>>17126989
>>17127000
>>but all those things seem based AF tho
Yeah but normies hate it, they just want to coom and be told they are good people between 2 sex parties.

>>17127248
You are right in that you can't see the truth without a Buddha's instruction, but rushing to read the scriptures without previous effort will yield no new understanding

>>17125614
well Ive read all manner of buddhist forum debates/essays etc on this topic, and the answer I can conclude is basically there is no shared consensus.

in the suttas it makes clear that final nibbana is a non-conscious state, and yet it also states that this is not annihiliationism. There's also poetic references to things like "consciousness unbound" that people spin to mean some sort of cosmic bliss or consciousness.

In my opinion it is is uncontroversial that pari-nibbana and atheist materialist death are functionally the same thing. There is just no more consciousness, it ends. There is no self or ego that is terminated, just the ongoing process of consciousness stops happenning.

here's a good article on it:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Articles/Nibbana%20is%20not%20vinnana_Sujato_2011.pdf

I don't know what lay buddhists in thailand etc actually believe, wouldn't be surprised if they think it's some permablissed out state.

also, why any whiteoid would follow this religion is beyond me? It's the most wacked out crazy nonsense I've ever read. kamma, rebirth, torture hell heaven, deva, hungry ghost realms, weather gods, mara, mount meru. monks levitating and flying unaided, touching the sun and the moon with their hands.

its so obviously religious mythology I just find it laughable that whites focus on the tip of their noses to ultimately end endless rebirth through 31 realms of nonsesne (in reality, they meditate to perform better at capitalism etc).

stupid corrupt religion

>>17125661
nibbana literally just translates as 'out', like as reference to a candle. the metaphor is samsara is the burning, nibbina is when the burning stops. there is nothing that continues in nibbana, the suttas are clear, like mind-numbingly boringly chant over and fucking over clear on this point

>>17127332
this

Buddhism and Hinduism seem so alien to the western mindset. Read your bibles folks.

>>17126870
because the buddhist worldview is horrific. you aer caught up in an endless cycle of rebirth through lives that are their core - suffering, if not just outright torture realms of visceral suffering.

it's not anti fun, it's more "fun binds you to kamma/samsara, if you want off I've got the method".

>>17127332
>I don't know what lay buddhists in thailand etc actually believe, wouldn't be surprised if they think it's some permablissed out state.
This seems to be the case in my experience, they think of Nirvana the same way westerners think of Heaven as some ineffable but blissful ultimate state.

>>17125614
Yes. Eternal oblivion posits nothing after death. Nirvana doesn't posit nothing after death, it doesn't posit something after death, it doesn't posit both nothing and something after death, it doesn't posit neither something nor nothing after death.

>>17118285
lmao you didn't outgrow shit. stop kidding yourself

>>17127248
>You can't see the truth without a buddha's instruction
>>17127277
>You are right in that you can't see the truth without a Buddha's instruction

Which Buddha did the Buddha read?

Here, this is what you've been jerking off to for 2500 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7473343/#:~:text=Minimal%20phenomenal%20experiences%20(MPEs)%20have,a%20reduced%20level%20of%20arousal.

Enlightenment is just your brain glitching out and restarting in "safe mode" with the bare minimum mental software running. That's why it's a non-conceptual state where you cannot even discern between a subjective observer and an observed reality.

How long do I have to sit in zazen before things become interesting, and real changes in thinking and feeling occurs. (If I sit say 50ish minutes per day 7 days a week)

>>17127550

Never if you keep waiting for something to happen. Zazen fundamentally is a buddhist adaption of taoist of taoist Zuowang, Zuowang being sitting in oblivion, oblivious. You succeed when you have forgotten you are trying to do anything, and just sit in other relaxation, in harmony with the flow of phenomena perfectly. Sitting oblivious. You have forgotten your body, mind, self, other, unity, chaos, and all things. In that simplicity Is key.

Trying to attain or gain a state in this is an automatic failure, zhangzi speaks of a butcher who enters this state not by sitting, but who butchered so much that he could cut meat with more grace than a ballerina could dance, and thus as he cut his meat he would sit in perfect oblivion and grace, and thus he attained Tao by simply cutting his meat.

It’s the same principle and method.

Which book should I give my mom to get her into zen?
My mom is 60 and retired and sits and watches TV and is on her phone playing games everyday 12 hours a day

It is not her fault, but it is so sad to see.

>>17127688
Ask her if she's happy like that first. Imo, you should look into other stuff before trying to nudge her into a religion/practice, like actually spending time with her.

>>17127688
women are peak NPCs, which is why they can't become buddha

“The point is not whether there is Dharma or not; the point is to generate the great doubt”

>>17127811
If the nature of woman is such
how can one hold them dear?
When bathing and making use of adornments
they deceive the minds of men

>>17118380
Ah, yes, the “Blue-Eyed Barbarian”

Bodhidharma:

>Mind is buddha, buddha is mind
>A buddha isn't a buddha, don't think about buddhas
>Those who hold onto appearances are devils, they fall from the Path
>Those who worship don't know, those who know don't worship
>The buddha is your own mind, don't misdirect your worship
>Seeing your nature is zen; unless you see your nature, it's not zen
>A buddha can't be found in words, or anywhere in the Twelvefold Canon
>Understanding comes mid-sentence... what good are doctrines?
>Laymen are buddhas too, unless they see their nature, people who shave their head are simply fanatics
>When you're deluded, buddhahood exists. when you're aware, it doesn't exist

>>17125490
>Enlightenment happens slow and gradually.
I disagree with that interpretation, Theravada is a fast track compared to non-esoteric Mahayana.

>>17126006
Buddhism doesn't teach kundalini awakening

>>17127332
Retard take.
I really hit the nail on the head when I said Taoism and Buddhism were too big brained for /lit/

Where does one even start with Buddhism? Anons in the last thread said that the books recommended in the /lit/ guide were Western misinterpretations. Rec me a book so I can start today?

>>17127919
Mahayana is so cringe.

>>17128020
Here you go.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/lib/authors/thanissaro/dhammapada.pdf

Buddhism is literally the biggest meme of them all. A kshatriya decided to larp as enlightened and started a cult around him. Imagine suffering being the core of your ethical belief system. It is just ethics for the ethical man. Nothing else. What a fraud

Why do buddhism threads always have the most vocal brainlets who understand nothing to it yet are eager to share their opinions on the doctrine?

>>17128020
In the Buddha's Words is a really good introduction to all of the core tenets of Buddhism.

>>17128020
Start with the entire vedas and quit being a cringy buddhist nihilist.

>>17128116
Verse and verse after verse about sacrificing whatnot to some primitive god, no thanks.

Buddha in Rome.

>>17128020

take 1h to read that and you'll be up to date

>start
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN19.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN6_63.html
>middle
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_51.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_1.html
>finish
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN54_8.html

>>17128116
Vedas can only be read by Brahmins. The lower castes cannot read them or comprehend them.

>>17128045
>>17128111
>>17128167
Thank you.

>>17128116
>killing animals is super duper

just stay with jewism

>>17128107
it is a mystified ponzi scheme, a vedic reform focused on the pysche over anything else

>>17125910
The koan is partly lost in translation. A more literal translation would be
>two hands clap, what is the sound of one of the hands?

>>17128181
Got any more hot midwit takes?

>>17128190
no but i want to hear your deep take. because all i see is a cult of the will and ethics

>>17128194
Several great recommendations have been made ITT for people who want to learn what Buddhism is about

>>17125403
>Theravada
isolated, personal and subjective journey towards enlightenment, stripped of all metaphysical bloat, enlightenment is acquired instantly by moving yourself along a certain direction

>Mahayana
enlightenment is a collective effort that concerns all existence and is inevitable, borne from a foundation of metaphysics and theology one learns their place within karma and the exponential causality thereby becoming a teacher to others

>Vajrayana
insane voodoo shit that works because legendary disciples with the mightiest powerlevels have, in their compassion, retroactively imbued various rituals with karmic gains for one to simply tap into

>>17127012
What is it with ancient religions and all these pointless rules?

>>17127345
Nirvana when replaced in context means "unbinding". You don't know what you're talking about and should refrain from posting

>>17128230
From your description, theravada sounds like what I want, but it's practically impossible to achieve enlightenment without being a monk according to them.

>>17128116
>the retard spamming 'buddhism is nihilism' is the hindu schizo after all
I should have known...

>>17128289
I simply disagree with that

>>17128386
Well, the theravadin sanghas don't unfortunately.
Why do you think laypeople have a shot at becoming arhats?

>>17128289
you can stay a neet and live off an inheritance of neetbux

>>17128420
>of neetbux
or

>>17128420
No need for an inheritance, I live in a country where I can just ask the state for neetbux. But why would I? If I were to become a hermit and dedicate my time to pursuing enlightenment, why not go all the way and ordain at a monastery?

>>17125884
Nice counter, as usual when you just feel bad for being wrong but dunno why.
>>17125896
Yeah true, zen is about freedom. Buddhism is just another bunch of religious shackles or just more woowoo for newagers picking and choosing whatever stupid shit they wanna fill their mind with.

>>17126870
Coz that's your mind on religion.

>>17128230
Vajrayana is comically absurd. I like the part where they meditate on themselves becoming overly sexualized female deities.

>>17128467
The reason for these weird practices makes sense in theory, but I can't get over the guru worship aspect, fuck that.

>>17128467
What? Source?

>>17128472
Reminder there's a kind of schism in Tibetan Buddhism because the Dalai Lama de-canonized a god that used to be very important and popular. This had a lot of impact to the point some haedliners murdered rival monks in 2000.

>>17128492
Tibetan Buddhism is a clusterfuck
Stick to Theravada and the main Mahayana sects, especially if you're a westerner

>>17128492
a longer schism in Tibetan Buddhism is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangtong-Shentong

>>17128498
I'm not really interested in buddhism as a spiritual pracrice, but I'm fascinated by its history, specially its modern evolution. Mahayana and specially Pure Land seemto me the best and most humane and sane of all branches.

>>17128515
>the best and most humane and sane of all branches.
Why's that?

I've read The foundations of Buddhism by rupert gethin but I'm not really sure where to go from there
I downloaded that book, in the buddha's words and I didn't really enjoy reading it, also tried reading sutras and was left confused
My family is a traditional chinese folk religion practising family and so I want to explore buddhism on that grounds

>>17128525
One of the few good /lit/ charts

>>17128515
its too bad pure land seems to be the farthest to what the historical buddha taught. The only worthwhile mahayana sect is based MADHYAMVKA.

>>17128536
The Buddha stressed the importance of the core teachings. As long as the four noble truths and the eightfold paths are taught, then Buddhism is preserved.

>>17128533
>starts with the first text i tried to read and didn't like
Welp

>>17128541
If you didn't like it, just read What the Buddha Taught, it's also a decent introduction. Then follow the rest of the chart.

>>17128541
If you don't mind me asking, why didn't you like it?

>>17126870
>why are monks, who dedicate their lives to strict adherence to a path of shedding the ego, not allowed to play social games?
C'mon, /lit/, you can shitpost better than this

>>17128541
have a go at pic rel

>>17128419
because its easy

>>17128587
How is it easy?

>>17128591
how is it not?

>>17128594
Are you an arhat?

>>17128230
>CHADrayana
based (pbuh)

"There are, bhikkhus, these three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned. Which three? Arising is manifest. Disappearance is manifest. The changing of what persists is manifest. These, bhikkhus, are the three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned."
(AN. i. 152)

"There are, bhikkhus, these three unconditioned characteristics of the unconditioned. Which three? No arising is manifest. No disappearance is manifest. No changing of what persists is manifest. These, bhikkhus, are the three unconditioned characteristics of the unconditioned."

this kills the mahayana

>>17128602
yea

>>17128604
I don't get it, how does this refute mahayana

Buddha BTFO

>>17128515
Why do people think theravada is dehumanizing or particularly difficult? This guy put it correctly >>17128230, theravada is just buddhism stripped bare of whatever is not directly related to the core teachings. Theravada is just a branch focused solely and exclusively on personal salvation.

>>17128621
>BTFO
I think you meant to say "based"

This kills >>17121131
>Chantin
>>17121663
Having given reasoned talk, he addressed the monks, saying:

"Monks, there are these five disadvantages to one singing dhamma with a long-drawn plain-song sound:

he is pleased with himself in regard to that sound, and others are pleased in regard to that sound,

and housepeople look down upon,

and while he is himself striving after accuracy in the sound[2] there is an interruption in his concentration,

and people coming after fall into the way of (wrong) views.[3]

These, monks, are the five disadvantages to one singing dhamma with a long-drawn plain-song sound.

Monks, dhamma should not be sung with a long-drawn plain-song sound.

Whoever should (so) sing it, there is an offence of wrong-doing."

Now at that time monks were doubtful about intoning.[4]

They told this matter to the Lord.

He said:

"Monks, I allow intoning."

This kills Mahayana again

The Ariyan disciple, Saḷha,
who possesses right concentration,
whatsoever object,
be it past, future or present,
personal or external to self,
be it gross or subtle,
mean or exalted,
far or near;
every object in short
that he beholds -
he looks upon it, as it really is,
with right wisdom,
thus:

"This is not of me."

"Not this am I."

"Not for me is this the self."

>>17128420
Can you really make siginficant progress on your own without a sangha, even if you're not a wageslave?

>>17128657
bump

>>17128805
what do you mean by significant progress specifically?

>>17128809
Tangible achievements instead of just getting glimpses of the jhanas that don't actually lead to any deeper, personal change.
Basically, will a layperson's spiritual progress hit a ceiling at some point that they'll need ordination to overcome?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L069esCjCR0
This guy is really good, I like his explanations.

>>17129029
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L069esCjCR0
so close of hinduism, so far of buddhism

>>17128657
Basically your life would be alternating reading the sutras, meditation and pondering the dharma. Which is what monks are supposed to do, but they have to deal with lay people.

The culminating point would be this
>‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

>>17129074
>all hinduism = non duality
cringe...

>>17129074
You don't know what you're talking about

>The canon does not support the identification of the "luminous mind" with nirvanic consciousness, though it plays a role in the realization of nirvana.[5][6] Upon the destruction of the fetters, according to one scholar, "the shining nibbanic consciousness flashes out of the womb of arahantship, being without object or support, so transcending all limitations."[7]


HONONONONONO MAYAHANA BROS WE GOT BRAHMIN'D

>>17129086
>If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.
I don't understand this part.

cursed thread full of cursed anons

>>17129274
go back to your crosscuck general

>>17129268
See >>17125033

>>17129268
>the shining nibbanic consciousness flashes out of the womb of arahantship, being without object or support, so transcending all limitations."[7]
>doesn’t realize this is impossible if consciousness is one of the aggregates which is extinguished
only the existence of the Atman can save Buddhism from being a massive pile of contradictions

Another thread ruined by guenonnigger's autism

>>17129286
No need for atman to save buddhism from being self-contradictory, just having a triple-digit IQ works

>>17129271
If you make some progress, but don't reach the goal, "your" next life isn't as bad. This is "merit", essentially karma that aims at you getting enlightened. For example, a certain minimum amount of effort ensures that you are reborn as a human. What kind of human in what scenario can vary, but still human and not a dog.

Yes, this means that it is possible for a monk to die just before enlightenment, and not get it. Shit sucks, that's Samsara. The fact that Samsara sucks is why Buddhism is a thing.

>>17129298
>it is possible for a monk to die just before enlightenment, and not get it
Aren't they reborn in one of the formless realms if that happens?

>>17128533
Thanks!

Is this worth reading? Alternative s?

>>17120651
Far as I know pure land is not popular in the west because its seems so similar to christianity

>>17129290
I only made like 2 posts in this whole thread, Buddhism threads just inevitably suck because Buddhism is intrinsically contradictory nihilistic nonsense. Trying to pin the blame for this on individual people is useless.

Guenonfag is literally a swedish pederast.

>>17129352
Every week your story changes Shlomo, last week or so I was allegedly dutch, try to be consistent

Why do advaitins love sucking cock?

>>17129399
Lol you stupid jew

ahahaha keep coping schizo faggot, you've been exposed

>>17129441
>exposed by some shizo "look this anonymous poster is the same as this other anonymous posters even though I don't show proof of that (the file names) in the image" image
Yeah sure whatever, I will continue to post in Buddhism threads and point out how its nonsensical. I never cared when you made that image (if I really did care I would have stopped posting months ago), and I don't care now.

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. By making all these silly shizo "guenonfag" images and posting them repeatedly for over a year, what have you hoped to accomplish? If it was an attempt to get me to stop posting, or an attempt to get me to stop BTFOing buddhism in every thread, then surely you continuing to post those until now would qualify as insanity in light of them having no effect upon my posting. You keep posting them as if you think they are having an effect or they they will. Meanwhile I'm laughing at your paranoid neuroticism in-between BTFOing nihilist buddhistfags and their sophistic arguments.

>>17129481
Didn't read. Cope harder.

>>17129485
It was hilarious when you exposed your Jewishness in this post you made here, but most of us could already tell already from your neurotic and vindictive gaslighting behavior

>>17129481
Holy seethe lmao, I'm thinking that pic really touched a nerve. I'll make sure to save it and repost it every time you shit up eastern philosophy threads from now on.
>Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
And that is why you're batshit insane. Glad you admit it.

>>17129498
>in this post you made here
meant to attach image (oy veeyy not anti-semitism NOOOOO)

>>17122302
Apparently Sangharakshita isn't thought highly of, but I remember him saying that everyone wasn't thaught everything is empty, because it would push most into nihilism.

Stop responding to a literal schizo you fucking retards. Don't you ever learn?

>>17129503
That post isn't me and I have no idea what kind of schizo shit you're babbling about. I see I really made you upset though, that's enough satisfaction for me.

>>17129500
>And that is why you're batshit insane. Glad you admit it.
Except that I have achieved real results, since most people on /lit/ are aware that Buddhism is illogical, nihilistic etc, and this shows in every thread about it where people constantly call it out for being such. Meanwhile, the actually intelligent and interesting people on /lit/ who read a wide range of metaphysics, philosophy etc read more Vedanta and other Hindu stuff now. The cat is out of the bag here that Buddhism is just a bunch of contradictory and nihilistic soul-denying garbage while Hinduism actually has the valuable and interesting philosophy. You can keep posting your schizo images but it won't change that.

>>17129518
>things that happened in my head
>nooo don't call me a schizo you're the schizo!
Okay buddy, I think we're done here.

>>17129516
>I see I really made you upset though, that's enough satisfaction for me.
I'm not upset because I'm neither Swedish nor gay, If I actually was a Swedish gay person though as you allege I'd imagine I'd be neither amused not offended, because that would be my identity and why would I be offended at my own identity?

It's just amusing to me that you have chosen to stick with this despite it having no actual real connection to my life. Keep posting your "guenonfag said something sometimes" while I BTFO Buddhism in every thread

Guenonfag doesn't usually seethe this hard, that screencap really broke him

>>17129531
>desperately justifying himself now
This is getting sad, I used to find you irritating but now I just feel bad.

>>17129531
*I'd imagine I'd be amused and not offended
>>17129516
of course it's you Shlomo, only you post those images with the same style of writing every time. You really are oblivious aren't you?

>every guy who thinks I'm a deranged schizophrenic is actually the same person
The funny thing when you argue with actually mentally ill people is that you don't even need to refute anything they say, they'll take care of that for you.

>>17129533
lol okay whatever, I see that its useless to engage in a discussion about how silly something what you are doing is, I'll btfo Buddhism in the next thead too, and no amount of schizo-images can stop me
>>17129553
t. Ari goldbergershtein (raised reform but now I'm a Buddhist)

>>17129564
cope and seethe

>they're still arguing and obsessed with words and concepts
You cannot be shown the truth, you can only experience it.

>>17129589
without an ultimately real experiencer or consciousness as the basis of that experienced, nothing at all can be experienced

Buddhism btfo

>>17129603
Reread my post, you still don't understand.

>>17129533
>that screencap really broke him
What screencap?

>>17129606
I agree with the words you wrote, but the common Buddhist doctrine which says that there isn't an ultimately real experiencer/self/consciousness is still false

>>17129603
read schopenhauer

>>17129628
Your hangups stem from a misconception of "Buddhist doctrine". It doesn't matter.

>>17129589
What does the text say?

>>17129641
clean your room

>>17128621
based

>>17129639
No, it doesn't, I'm familiar with the different ways which the Indian Buddhist schools each deny the reality of the self/sentience and to me they are all fallacious

>>17129789
You don't understand that anatta is nothing more than apophatism and get hung up on concepts. You're attacking an enemy that doesn't exist.

>>17128621
the buddha said women can get enlightened, but can't become a buddha

due too much sex amirite

>>17129797
>You don't understand that anatta is nothing more than apophatism
I agree this is probably true, but almost no Buddhist school interprets it this way, in these theads I typically argue against the specific schools of Buddhism whose explanations people repeat here instead of "yeah well anatta is just apophatism not no-self". People such as yourself are an irrelevant minority within Buddhism, this is not a personal attack on you but is just stating the fact that you people have like no influence at all over the greater conversation about and teaching of Buddhism and almost every major Buddhist school would disagree with you and say that the position "anatta is just apophatism" is an eternalist heresy.

So even if you are right, there are countless multitudes who have been taught no-self, who come onto /lit/ to argue that it's right and to try to indoctrinate others into accepting it. And when I encounter their stupid and sophistic arguments I will happily point out the flaws and contradictions in all of them, even if that's not the "long-lost secret meaning of buddhism which only the traditionalist school, a few 1920's-1930's scholars, Chandradhar Sharma and Ken Wheeler talk about"

Lastly, anatta is the most glaring but is not the only contradiction in 'original' Buddhism, there are also major contradictions with the idea of regarding dependent-origination as the cause of anything instead of Brahman/God/the One etc as Shankara points out.

>>17129907
>almost no Buddhist school interprets it this way,
Mahayana has a bunch of concepts that hint towards it, like dharmakaya and buddha-nature.
Theravada straight up admits (well, some of its monks did) that anatta was just a teaching meant to help detach from the notion of self.
You are mistaken in that you assume that anatta is an actual metaphysical teaching that schools of Buddhism consider to be an absolute truth. This is not the case, ask any actual monk and not /lit/ dilettantes. Anatta is a concept that helps in the path towards enlightenment, nothing more.
Dependent origination makes sense, not sure what you're on about, but I'm not in the mood for an argument on metaphysics.

>>17129699
Come on, anon. Tell me?

>>17129939
>dharmakaya and buddha-nature.
All but a tiny minority of Mahayana and Vajrayana schools when you actually get into their stuff they say that dharmakaya etc don't ultimately exist and are just metaphors or conceptual heuristic devices to help people understand emptiness that is itself empty of its own existence. They interpret the 2nd turning (sunyata) as ultimate and the 3rd turning (yogachara) as only provisional. The schools (like Jonang) that don't regard sunyata as being a higher truth that supersedes yogachara are a tiny minority that the majority of Buddhist schools consider antiquated heretics, and in Tibet the ruling Gelugs even attempted but failed to eradicate the Jonang through forceful suppression.

>anatta was just a teaching meant to help detach from the notion of self.
One small school of Theravada which has not existed for long did this in Thailand, which was controversial and for which it was condemned by the larger and much older other Theravada schools in the country. The standard or orthodox position of Theravada doctrine is that anatta means no-self.

> ask any actual monk and not /lit/ dilettantes.
The monks learn the doctrines of the "Buddhist schools" which almost impose no-self readings on Buddhism, a monk would be more likely to say that then a 4chan poster

>>17129939
>>17130073

>Dependent origination makes sense, not sure what you're on about,
No it doesn't, Shankara explains why below

"No one, they claim, can possibly deny this chain of causation (Pratītyasamutpāda) beginning with nescience. And once the whole causal chain beginning with nescience is admitted to exist, and to be revolving continually like a wheel with buckets at a well, it is found to imply that the formation of aggregates must be possible. But this is not right, as the causes so far mentioned lead to production (of the next effect in the series) only (and not to aggregation of any kind). An aggregate could be admitted if an intelligible cause were assigned for it. But it is not. Nescience and the rest may cause one another mutually in your cycle, but they only cause the rise of the next link in the chain. There is nothing to show that anything could be the cause of an aggregate. True, you claimed that if nescience and the rest were admitted, an aggregate was necessarily implied.

To this, however, we reply as follows. If you mean that nescience and the rest cannot arise except in the presence of some aggregate and so are dependent on it, then you still have to explain what could be the cause of the aggregate. Now, we have already shown in the course of our criticism of the Vaisesikas that aggregation is unintelligible even when supported by such assumptions as that of the existence of eternal atoms along with eternal individual experiencers who serve as permanent loci for the conservation of the effects of past action. So it will be all the less intelligible in a theory in which only atoms of momentary existence are admitted, without any permanent experiencer or any permanent locus for anything. If the Buddhist now claims that it is this causal chain beginning with nescience that is the cause of aggregation, we ask how this causal chain could ever be the cause of aggregation when it depends on aggregation for its own existence."

>>17130073
*which almost always impose

>>17130073
>>17130079
As I said, I don't want to have a debate on this. You're just expending energy uselessly by continuously debating the same points over and over, in the end people will choose to believe whatever resonates with them more deeply.

>>17129797
Is there any point of joining a Buddhist school as one who believes anatta is indeed just apophatism? Every major school seems to hold the no-sentience, no-self view.

>>17130134
Sure. The forest sangha for example holds this view and is the main branch of Theravada in western countries.
The fact that the Dharma is only a tool cannot be stressed enough. All concepts are meaningless in the face of the experience of truth, and spending your time analyzing doctrines only leads to conceptual proliferation.

>>17130145
The wrong doctrine wont lead you to the truth, and we can only discern the correct doctrine from false doctrine using our capability for rational discernment.

>>17130391
The Dharma was designed for direct experience, by practicing it you'll realize that it is a good doctrine and go from there. Spending your time intellectualizing everything isn't going to help you.

>>17130407
> The Dharma was designed for direct experience,
Maybe that was his intent but Buddha was a shoddy designer and that shows in the contradictions in his doctrine
> Spending your time intellectualizing everything isn't going to help you.
I have had direct experience of the truth, but it was not the ‘truth’ of Buddhism

>>17130462
Whatever. Seems like you're just looking to argue about pointless things.

>>17130490
dissuading people from accepting false spiritual doctrines such as no-self that are often being propagated here by Buddhists by pointing out the contradictions in such doctrines is never pointless, in fact I’m selflessly helping to steer others to the truth

>>17130518
You're just harming yourself by pursuing pointless endeavors and spending so much energy on meaningless details. You're probably going to dismiss this though, so have a good one.

>>17130548
> You're just harming yourself
the self cannot be harmed, because it doesn’t have a physical body, its formless
> ursuing pointless endeavors
interrupting buddhist gaslighting about the atman and God/Brahman are not pointless, I am helping to enlighten people, I daresay more than “Buddha” ever did

>>17118850
Based. Makes tyrannies seethe.