/lit/ - Literature

another hylic filtered

Aw, the little brainwashed Westerner can't get his brainwashed head around ideas that oppose his social conditioning.

>>17083059
>it's just an analogy bro.
>>17083063
I'm pretty open minded, but there is not a sing word of wisdom in this book.

>>17083047
>What was I supposed to get out of this?
That if we entertain utopian thought experiments, we will ultimately arrive at the notion of their own impossibility. This is precisely what Plato tried to point out and which is echoed through time in other utopian thought experiments, most notably Cicero's Republic, Averroes' Epitome of Plato's Republic and More's Utopia.

Don't believe me? Cicero attests to that notion in De Re Publica 2.52 which reads that the regime described in the Republic is intended "not as possibly existing, but as making it possible that the principle of political things be seen [non quae posset esse, sed in qua ratio rerum civilium perspici posset]." For more information read Leo Strauss' essay on esoteric writing.

>>17083047
>fucking twinks bad
Yeah Plato went too far on this one.

>>17083083
>>fucking twinks bad
Where does he say this? I know he talks about the empty existence of a catamite but I don't remember him talking about the act of fucking twinks being bad.

>>17083047
You were supposed to realize that Plato was a pseud and that his only worth was as a Recorder of Socrates thought.

>>17083047
>>Music baad !
>>Brainwashing good !
Yes.

>>17083047
>>Music baad !
>>Brainwashing good !
>>Secterianism good !
>>[insert analogy far removed from reality]
Implying he said any of this.

>>17083074
>not a sing word of wisdom in this book
Unironically kill yourself. Even when I was a lib teen and thought a lot of it was silly or just outdated, I was struck by the beauty and importance of such ideas as the Philosopher-King.

>>17083176
>the wisest and best of people should rule

Wow, that's deep man.

>Music baad !
>Brainwashing good !
>Secterianism good !
Yes.

>>17083186
>he doesn't know that the Philosopher-King rests on philosophy
You're pretty dumb if you reduce it to some sort of animalistic scientism of "le superior rule!!" though it does include that naturally.

>>17083047
Nothing the book was a proto type for the NWO

>>17083079
this, when i was reading the republic i was immediately struck by the self aware and self defeating irony of the work.

he talks about how literature should only be written in a direct retelling sort of way, but this is told by Plato through Socrates in a dialogue form.
He disavows art as being twice removed depictions of the real truth, but can only approach the truth through hypothetical cities and myths
He designs a state meant to engender a love for truth, but this state can only be made stable by two 'convenient lies'

The whole project is constantly shown to be somehow unstable or self defeating

>>17083176
This is nothing to brag about it. I read it as a teen and though, wow, what a dumbass Idea. I'll concede that rulers should be philosophically educated. If they were truly philosophers though, they would disagree with Plato's Republic.

>>17083235
And yet, somehow, this is not the scholarly consensus on the intent of Plato's Republic. I find that baffling desu. It's like taking Machiavelli's Prince at face value. Nobody would do that.

>>17083235
>>17083296
kek, actual brainlets. the absolute state of /lit/

>>17083296
> le prince was satire meme

>>17083047
Plato is a fucking brainlet compared to Aristotle.

>>17083268
You're under the impression that truth is just a sort of abstract frame necessarily to be and only defined by a Cartesian testing through cynicism, doubt. If truth is only that which has been doubted and proved, well that's rather stupid isn't it.

The Philosopher-King is something so much more broad than you imagine; someone like Carlyle spends countless volumes exacting what it is. Because for all in Plato, comes from the timeless question which is warranted by that immediate value of asking it. The reason that you miss the marvel of the idea of the Philosopher-King, or Hierarchies in the state, is because you already suppose a specific frame of understanding for these well-nigh archetypal, living recognitions. Do you think the "Philosopher-King" is automatically a question of doing material good for a people,

I also find it surprising that you think "Plato's Republic" is just a material-causal, that is overly literal, blueprint for building the ideal state lmao. I'm not trying to deny it is making a political ideal (least of all am I going to call it a work of satire), but it's just a ridiculous arrogance to consider it as you do.

>>17083298
the absolute state of (you)
>>17083306
The Prince is not satire, rather it points out the measures by which an autocrat has to rule and that is, ultimately, a disregard for ethics to the point of tyranny. We all know that Machiavelli did not think monarchy was a desirable political system since we have access to the far more extensive Discourses on Livy.

>>17083298
If you have a different more nuanced reading than mine im interested anon. if you're just mad this reading doesnt fit in your worldview im less interested in your reading but at least tell me how you interpret the incongruities of those passages.

>>17083235
this.
read Nick Land. he completely BTFOs Plato.

>>17083333
what do you mean BTFO Plato? Plato clearly introduced this irony on purpose?

>>17083235
>The whole project is constantly shown to be somehow unstable or self defeating
Name 1 (one) example

>>17083459
For instance, when Fascsists pretend to understand The Republic it immediately becomes self-defeating, because Fascists are all failures.

>>17083459
my man i gave 3 (three) examples. ill rephrase them again just to be sure
1. for literature to be as truthful as possible, Plato says good literature in the republic must be written in a direct report-like manner, but apparently this direct manner is somehow lacking, because Plato does not use this manner of writing in the Republic.
2. art in general is said to be bad because it is twice removed from the truth, first from the actual thing and the actual thing from its form. Yet Plato requires the literary form of a city-in-speech, and multiple instances of metaphor and myth to convey his ideas.
3. the city-in-speech strives to engender a love for truth, but requires two myths (called 'convenient lies' by Plato) to be stable: the illusion of the ceremonial wedding and the myth of the 3 different metal souls. if its citizens are trained to love truth, they will inevitably find this out.

That Plato is the father of the modern world and everything up to the counter-enlightenment says a lot about why the west is such a shitfest today

>>17084157
How so?

>>17083047
Plato was a brave soul and your American/Anglo brain is just coping.

>>17083133
>he thinks Plato is a "Recorder of Socrates though"

>>17083173
>

>Music baad !
>Brainwashing good !
>Secterianism good !
>[insert analogy far removed from pleb minds]

this is what happens when you try to tackle the republic before reading literally any other dialogue

>>17084167
The biggest competitive advantage of plato's theory of forms is that it promotes viewing the analogue world in discrete models that are easier to understand. plato's ideas actually preconfigured people's understanding of heaven (a world of perfection that reside outside physical realm) among other core christian beliefs -- this is why christians today always bring up plato when they try to argue things without bringing up their religion.

The biggest shortcoming of this line of thinking is the world becomes reduced to a 1 dimensional dualistic shitfest where good people fight evil people. People honestly come to believe they are in the right when they argue for things like
>masks
>trump
>race
when in reality everything is a matter of tradeoffs.

>>17084424
>PLATO SAID TO WEAR THE MASK
Wot

>>17084449
Actually read his post, woman.

Music is objectively harmful

>>17084635
This, imagine thinking there's no correlation with urbanites listening to "YO FUCKA DA POLICEA" and urban violence.

faggot bait thread

>>17084635
>>17084663
but can't music be constructive? And beautiful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVuYTbxipw0

>>17084690
Yes. Undiluted expression is the crux of Plato's argument however.

>aristotle takes a big deal of time in the politics rejecting platos' ideas in the republic
>it was meant to be satire bro

>>17084690
this probably has many of the chords that faggot was afraid of

>>17083321
Insightful post. Thanks. I just downloaded this book yesterday, and my comprehension will definitely benefit from this thread.

>>17083618
Not that anon, but I will endeavor to show you that Plato's Republic is infact atable and self-affirming.

1. It's more nuanced than that. You may recall Plato making a distinction between narrative style and imitative style; that is to say, between reportage and roleplay. Literature's goodness is determined by its effect on the population and the values it instills in them. According to Plato, Literature becomes bad, not when it strays from reportage, but when the poet forces its audience to imitate bad characters, thereby imparting bad qualities. Therefore, Plato is not contradicting himself by writing a dialogue instead of a essay. Contrariwise, Plato hopes for the reader to imitate Socrates quest for the truth, for these are deemed to be of good character. In addition, Thrasymachus' tantrums are reported rather than quoted, further exemplifying the role of Literature in the Republic

2. Consider the metaphor of the cave.

3.Let's put it this way, if its citizens are trained to love truth, they will inevitably find this out. Then what? They will also have found out the reason for its enforcement, that it misleads the populace onto the right path.

>>17084424
Nuance and ambiguity are just dualistic dithering, Anon. Even scientifically, the world is just made up of positive and negative charges.

>>17084789
It's always good to find an enlightening post about a book, I'm glad you have found my post helpful.

>>17085958
This is one of the most based takes I have ever heard on /lit/.
Good job anon.

>>17083047
It's an allegory, you brainlet

>>17083047
If you were a Just man, would you not think this is Just?

>>17084763
>chords
>What are scalar modes?

Pleb

Ban the flute but allow the lyre.

>>17083173
Did he not? Genuine question.

>>17083298
>haha, you're stoopid
just reply with a wojac or something