/lit/ - Literature

Wrong, any form of individualism is a form of fascism. And that's a good thing

Jus B Yerself :)

This place is dumb sometimes you people are dumb sometimes

>>17001338
Cringe

>>17001338
How do I know you're one of those people who constantly shitposts but never reads books

>>17001406
>How do I know you're one of those people who constantly shitposts but never reads books
Cope, hypertext is the only relevant textual medium in current year

>>17001338
I'm gonna find you and kill you, as is my right

>>17001425
Thanks for confirming

>>17001338

>>17001338
So nuance is fascism?

>>17001436
I make 9000k+ a year through my Instagram influencer account, what do you make as an author lmao

>>17001465

Stirner was on to something huge.
MORALS aren't a thing. It's evolutionary psychology that gives us the instincts for altruism and empathy. Not God or sone other such thing. Stirner one in his bones that our morality is just genetic programming, and no act is immoral, because nothing is moral or immoral. It's like when the atomists deduced the existence of atoms through reason alone. Stirner deduced evopsych, then took the logic to an extreme to thoroughly demonstrate his point. He is not some silly extremist. It is a shame that Marx reacted to Stirner so poorly. Communism would greatly benefit from the application of evopsych principles, but they've internalized blank-slate nonsense so they continue to build unworkable social systems

>>17001522
I like you

>>17001522
Memopsych is pseudoscience based on one particular view of human behavior, a view which is by nature rooted in our current values

>>17001550
If psychology isnt a meme why is Jung as relevant as Freud and vice versa...they can’t both be right when they have differing views/outcomes on the same theories

>>17001550
Objecting to evolutionary psychology is emotionally based anti-intellectualism, human psychology is an emergent property of our biology.

>>17001702
>Human psychology is an emergent property of our biology
and environment

>>17001434
Not if I kill you first needle dick

>>17001338
cool faggot me and the boys are coming to beat your ass and rob you though. good luck with ur tranny faggot individualism.

>>17002970
>>17002605
>Yeah you wrote an argument but what if I hit you with a rock dude hehe better luck next time

Christ was a fascists

>>17001522
this is acceptable discourse

read de sade

>>17001522
Finally someone gets it

>>17001338
Hitler was an egoist. He did everything he did because he as an individual wanted to.

>>17003448
Suicide is an egotistical act, yes

>>17001522
But they are a thing. People believe in them and the effects of those beliefs have consequences.

Is Stirner a nihilist?

>>17003474
So is everything else he did. Egoism is an absurd and meaningless ideology. You can argue everything anyone does is to satisfy their own ego, even the abstractions that they create along with others. My desire to uphold fascism is not "less egoist" than your desire to dismantle it's constraints. And recognizing something as a spook doesn't matter if the believers of that "spook" enforce it with bullets, which are emphatically NOT spooks.

>>17003475
Stirner claim was god did not exist, and even if it did, morality does not matter because there is no afterlife or no way to prove it. This means morality, as a sacred doctrine, is something one can contumaciously ignore or not follow. This applies to every established philosophy from rationalism, empiricism, to theism. The people who follow those beliefs are often duped egoists who've been indoctrinated to follow or to accept those beliefs. You don't have to. Ultimately, to Stirner, the individual, I, is only responsible for my life and my actions. What others do is not my affair.

>>17003504
>You can argue everything anyone does is to satisfy their own ego

You could, but that would be tautological. The antithesis of egoism is altruism, i.e. whereas egoism is acting with a motivator, altruism is acting without a motivator -- which begs the question: why act?

That's not to say altruism doesn't exist, however. You'd just have to be apathetic to commit it.

>>17003525
>You could, but that would be tautological.
Yes, that's what I'm claiming. Egoism is a meaningless ideology.

>>17003475
Then anon says they aren't real I think they're saying morals are spooks and spooks aren't acual. I don't think they're trying to say spooks can't effect behavior, since Stirner is all to happy to point out how Spooks have actual effects.

>>17003504
>You can argue everything anyone does is to satisfy their own ego, even the abstractions that they create along with others.
Not quite because you have a surface level of understanding of Stirner's argument. You can certainly be an egoist, and a fascist, but you are duped into being one. Some person, some culture, some group brainwashed you into being this tool for a higher cause, a fascist one, when a person certainly does not follow you or what you do. Stirner's argument is ultimately a nihilistic, libertine one.No one has to be a fascist, you can just be lazy and mind your business - only doing things that make you happy. You don't waste your time caring about "society", "humanity", "duty" , "family." His attack on "spooks" just him acknowleding the absurdity of caring about the non-sense you morons spew when in the end you just die, dissolve and you will never remember anything you did. Just do whatever you want until you die, basically.

>>17003556
>Some person, some culture, some group brainwashed you into being this tool for a higher cause
So then where did the idea come from? Can I not independently come to similar conclusions of an ideology beforehand then join when I hear things I agree with being spoken? Was the creator of the idea a brainwashed?

>the absurdity of caring about the non-sense you morons spew when in the end you just die, dissolve and you will never remember anything you did

You are going to die, dissolve, and not remember anything you did anyway. Why is it less absurd to not have a cause? Non of what you said convinced me that Egoism has any insight on alternative courses of action for any situation ever.

>>17001338
So I haven't read anything more than the Wiki, but what's the difference between his philosophy and straight up narcissism? Is it explained in the book?

>>17001522
This is not true. I doubt you've read Stirner.

>>17001338
based lolbert

>>17002980
yep thats correct lmfao. ur fancy words aren't going to keep you safe.

>>17003624
Retard.

>>17003612
>So then where did the idea come from?
It doesn't matter where it came from because it did not come from me. I don't have to care - its another spook that is alien to me. Its just another belfry in your head you care too much about.
>Why is it less absurd to not have a cause?
What's not absurd about wasting your time with speculative things not the immediate here and now? Why would I work, in abstract, for nothing?
Stirner's rejection of spooks is essentially a rejection of duty, a rejection of the obligation to serve things social abstractions such culture, family, race, community, any form of collectivity embraced by humanism for a radical nominalism that makes the individual, I, the measure of all things. The bible, the law, the family, the race, the philosopher doesn't tell me how to feel or how I ought to believe my life, I consciously choose to do things because I can directly measure, and see their tangible impacts on me. When dealing with spooks that rule over me, I ignore them i.g. I don't listen to my family when they tell me to do things, I don't respect my teacher's recommendations, I slack on the job when dealing with my boss, or just I don't work and learn how to survive off of begging and welfare. I steal and lie from people when I can get a chance to do so because it benefits me. When I face threats, I can use force or maybe deceit if I don't have the ability to do so. I don't serve anyone but myself.

anti-individualist rhetoric is fedposting
libcoms and groypers are stinky coons who can't think for themselves

YEAH IT IS, PROBLEM, LIBTARD?

>>17001702
>Objecting to evolutionary psychology is emotionally based anti-intellectualism, human psychology is an emergent property of our biology.
I don't deny those things but Egoism says fuck that and that it can do more and be more. Equalism itself fights the body as what it is, since what it is can't be described. But most people have not tapped into that enough.

>>17003675
Narcissist.

>>17001338
>Mind your own fucking business.
NO

>>17003680
Everything starts with the self. No one escapes from this fact.

>>17003680
>It doesn't matter where it came from because it did not come from me. I don't have to care - its another spook that is alien to me. Its just another belfry in your head you care too much about.
You didn't even come from you. This just sounds like a mindset of surrender and enslaving yourself to your own fleeting desires of your ego. Endless novelty is it's own prison.

>Stirner's rejection of spooks is essentially a rejection of duty, a rejection of the obligation to serve things social abstractions such culture, family, race, community, any form of collectivity embraced by humanism for a radical nominalism that makes the individual, I, the measure of all things.
What if I like those things, and I like how they make me feel?

>I don't listen to my family when they tell me to do things, I don't respect my teacher's recommendations, I slack on the job when dealing with my boss, or just I don't work and learn how to survive off of begging and welfare. I steal and lie from people when I can get a chance to do so because it benefits me. When I face threats, I can use force or maybe deceit if I don't have the ability to do so. I don't serve anyone but myself.
None of the structures of society would exist if everyone thought like that. Life wouldn't even be possible if it wasn't emphatically and fanatically prosocial and life affirming. Sure, go ahead and live your life like that but you get absolutely zero empathy or mercy from me or anyone else who buys into my "spook".

>>17001338
You're under arrest for violating the law. Do not resist.

>>17001338
Homo sapien sapien has never existed without a state, we’ve evolved so far from early humans, what makes you think we can exist without one? What makes you think states aren’t a part of this evolution.

>>17003680
What is it with you people? Are you so afraid of not having freedom that you must force yourself to go against everything just to exercise it? Are you so weak-minded and weak-willed you force yourself to be against anything that doesn't come from "yourself" or your ego, not realizing the basic psychology behind your actions by masquerading it with some "deep philosophical reasoning"?

>inb4 ad homonememe no argumense xddd
But it's still true though.

>I conciously choose to do things
kek
You can not, if anything this is the biggest spook of all, and ironic as it is, you believe it the most.

>or I just don't work and live of begging and welfare
Woah, I can really see the benefits of your philosophy now, so basically be poor and live in the moment only? Appeal to all the previously denounced spooks so you don't rot in the streets? If everyone lived like that what would happen then? Oh yeah "Union of Egoists" or whatever and basically we end up in the same system.

>I don't serve anyone but myself.
Not realizing sometimes serving others would result in being able to better serve yourself. I doubt you live like what you wrote anyway it wouldn't be sustainable but rather keep it up as a fantasy of being free.

>>17001434
Lol. Needle dick! You will never be a man.

>>17003902
They are special beings who don't need to play their basic role, they are above us sheeple because they don't believe in our "spooks", but profit from it either way. Dude, they literally read a book, don't you realize that? Literally Übermenschen how can spooks even compete? They are so independent physically they live of the spooks, and they are so independent mentally they read a book and it sounded cool so it's now their (obviously superior) way of being! No need to ask questions, it's their Ego telling them what to do (not the influences)!

>>17004220
Watch out bitch, wasps can sting more than once

>>17004233
>influences
They are my servants.

>>17004247
>unconcious influences are my servants
peak delusion

>>17004162
>you didn't even come from you.
I own my flesh and own my blood, I do what I wish it.
>What if I like those things, and I like how they make me feel?
I don't have to care. If you conflict with my interests, It'll deal with you, but whatever happens to you isn't my fair.
>None of the structures of society would exist if everyone thought like that.
I don't give a damn about society. The fetishization of society is the problem of humanism; it worries so much about worthless people who will have no impact on my life if they perish. Their lives intrinsically have no value to me.
>you get absolutely zero empathy or mercy from me
I wouldn't care if my actions resulted in the death of you or your family. Only my life matters to me.
>Are you so afraid of not having freedom that you must force yourself to go against everything just to exercise it?
Freedom is doing what I desire with my life; its not you telling me freedom is. In fact, Stirner attacks the idea of collective freedom because he shows we all have a different, nominal understanding of what freedom ought to be. There is no such thing as "collective freedom." if my freedom depends on you.
>You can not, if anything this is the biggest spook of all, and ironic as it is, you believe it the most.
>Freedom is no fairy gift to fall into a man's lap. What is freedom? To have the will to be responsible for one's self.
If you actually cared about "freedom" you wouldn't be so senstive when someone told you it is when you responsibility for your own actions. You don't want to do that; you want some collective give you permission to do things; I don't.
>Woah, I can really see the benefits of your philosophy now, so basically be poor and live in the moment only?
Doing whatever makes me happy. I don't need to justify myself to anyone or anything. Also, this is a stupid argument, ironically, because Stirner's was literally called the billionaires bible. Selfish capitalist are fine by me.
>
Woah, I can really see the benefits of your philosophy now, so basically be poor and live in the moment only? Appeal to all the previously denounced spooks so you don't rot in the streets?
A union of egoists isn't a society, retard, its a state of affairs established temporarily, an agreement between conscious individuals to do a specific task. Its an arrangement. A bunch bros going to a bar is a union of egoists.
>Not realizing sometimes serving others would result in being able to better serve yourself.
That's the slave morality talking to you. But, if I do serve someone, it will be because one day I will using that knowledge against them for my own gain.
>I doubt you live like what you wrote anyway
Its easy being a vagabond, a neet, a monk, a criminal. Its easy to be a selfish person, or even a sociopathic person. We all do it.

>>17004300
>"that's a stupid argument, because someone called the book xy!"
>"I don't need to justify myself to anyone or anything!"
>*goes on a long rant on an anonymous basket clapping internet forum to justify himself and his behavior in the hopes of approval*

>>17001338
Libertarians are truly autistic. The one virtue of their line of ethos and logic is that I'm justified in plastering their grey matter against the soles of my boot.

>>17003703
>anti-individualist rhetoric is fedposting
t. disgusting obese amerishart that will die alone

>You could pick any philosopher to LARP as
>you pick a mediocre midwit like Stirner

>>17004577
>I'm just pretending to be retarded! I got you mad all along!
>Trying this hard to make me a fascist idiot like yourself
>Trying this hard to make me give a shit about you
Its not working

>>17002984
christ was a socialist, and therefore a fascist

>>17005134
>if you call me out you are a fascist idiot!
lmao, i'm not even the anon you argued with but this just confirms >>17005080

>>17001338
>Mind your own fucking business.
>instantly dies because he doesn't know how to do anything and is reliant on the labour of thousands of people and their submission to state and law

>>17001522
I don't recall Stirner speaking about evolved moral like urges and feels

>>17005718
Slavery created by that institution in itself, which would have been different in the state of nature due to the absence of indoctrination and the public school system. People are free to exploit corporations, government, and their bootlicking adherents for one's personal gain. Just like I can spit on capitalism and property owners through theft, sedition, and vandalism; all while still working a job merely for my survival. Same reason I cheat all my taxes, while still using public roads, health services, and police to my own ends. I can do whatever the fuck I want, and if they want me to live and be reliant upon their system; then I can just drain it for every last drop of blood through any sort of criminal or antisocial behaviour I please.

>>17003504
What you are describing is involuntary egoism. Its not the pure egoism Stirner championed

>>17005813

>>17005878
Wrong. Involuntary egoism is when you fail to recognize or admit your egoism. For example, if I claimed I wanted to abuse moral rules to guilt and torment others through intentional logical fallacies and half truths, all the while condemning them to violent and sadistic judgement; this wouldn't be involuntary egoism. I would be just a routine egoist, who found the most pleasure in making people suffer through both physical trauma and my self-righteous attitudes. If they saw through me, and aimed to contradict my moral values, all I have to merely do is drop the act; and I become a routine sadist who will find the pleasure in just victimizing them for being a hypocrite--rather than for being evil.

>If I cherish you because I hold you dear, because in you my heart finds nourishment, my need satisfaction, then it is not done for the sake of a higher essence whose hallowed body you are, not on account of my beholding in you a ghost, an appearing spirit, but from egoistic pleasure; you yourself with your essence are valuable to me, for your essence is not a higher one, is not higher and more general than you, is unique like you yourself, because it is you.
People think that being egoistic instantly makes you an asshole. That the only way anyone would act on their own desires is by fucking other people over. You can care about others, but not in service of God or the greater good. You are simply altruistic because it makes you feel good.

>>17005933
Not altruism, but true otherwise. You can do nice things for personal rewards, but altruism is literally impossible for any human to perform, period.

>>17001338
Fascism is just a natural development of politics. Since politics gives an advantage in domains where all competition centres around zero-sum game, pretending that it is "spook" is just a method of abandoning it, to your own detriment.

>>17001522
Fundamentally correct, and it has implications for how we should live/how we should organize society. In essence, it means that we should focus our society on productivity and giving everyone opportunities so that people don't need to come into conflict with one another. It is better to have a productive society than to have a moral society, because morality doesn't exist and therefore isn't a solution to anything.

For instance; would abortions happen if single mothers were rich? No. So whether it is permissible to kill the unborn is a moot point.

>>17003535
Stirner himself says that everyone is an egoist in >>17005890. His point to the reader is that there's a lot of liars and hypocrites in the world.

>>17001338
Some people are inherently better and have excess "business", if there's no morality why shouldn't they use it on others?

>>17001338
If you don't want to gain power over others you are a genetic failure

>>17001338
I see no ultimately compelling reason whatsoever to follow morality in a secular world. If you're here once and only once why not game the system any way you can?

>>17006021
>it is better
>morals dont exist

where do we even start with you

>>17001522
>>17001550
That's the one thing I disagree with, morals are not rooted in evolution, because morals are just emotions. Think about it; imagine kids playing in a sandbox, and the one kid steals the toy from the other kid, and so the stolen-from-kid cries. Why's he crying? Because the toy would give him an evolutionary advantage? Or simply because he resents the theft?

Obviously the kid simply resents the theft; he was attached to/enjoying the toy, and it was taken. So it's not rooted in evolution, or rooted in our current values, it's rooted in what we want as individuals.

>>17001338
>its another leftist ideologue exalting themself and lecturing me about how being evil is actually kinda cool episode

imagine my shock

>>17006082
>one of the most famous individualists
>leftist
Reminder that judeo-christians are just proto-socialists.

>>17006062
>It is better
>Morals don't exist
>Contradiction?
Nope, just because morals don't exist doesn't mean I cannot express rational preferences & express those preferences with modifiers like good, bad, better, worse etc.

You can just fuck off with your sophistic language-game, peasant.

>>17006107
And that's a good thing

>>17006023
There is no virtue in honesty, nor shame in hypocrisy; so it's an irrelevant conclusion.

Itt: mucho texto

Anarchy is when I do whatever I want, guess what... i want to rape every limp wristed pseud on this board

>>17006132
You don't see how one might be able to navigate more accurately by not lying to themselves about both the terrain and method of movement through it?

>>17006160
No, there are absolutely useful lies. It's impossible to do everything in life by knowing where it's headed beforehand, blind optimism in different ideas is adaptive.

>>17006160
This is the part where the dogma-slave clarifies that without an ideological drive to do something there's no reason to do anything.

>>17006194
>No, there are absolutely useful lies.
There are no 'absolutely' useful lies, no. There are contextually useful lies at best.

>>17001522
this is full of spooks

Stirner is proof you can make literally any assertion, and so long as you say it aggressively enough, you will become extremely controversial. All Stirner said was, "All actions are always done for the sake of oneself. Recognizing this is useful for our future actions. Not recognizing it can lead to us overvaluing the things we use to initially intended to use to ourselves, to the point where those things become useless," and everyone's in a tizzy over it. He's no different from the stoics or anyone else. He just uses words that make people think that he said something more controversial than he in fact did.

>>17001338
Who fucking cares bro

>>17006160
It's irrelevant so long as it satisfies ego. In fact, it may be that the egoist experiences inferior pleasure to the unwilling egoist, since he has no faith. For example, I'd enjoy it even more if I could honestly believe in righteousness, but instead it merely "possesses" me until I drop the charade, and the pleasure disappears. I only lie to others, but if I could lie to myself, it would make life more enjoyable.

>>17006214
I was using absolutely for emphasis. Poor wording on my part.

>>17006268
He's actually just a German Yang Zhu. Its remarkable how difficult people make him out to be when his premise is simple and logically sound.

>>17006067
It is rooted in evolution, some individuals are born without it, those are exceptions and we treat them as mentally ill, they are harmful to the majority, some are born prone to become like this if the enviromental factors influence them enough. Stirner is an excellent cope for said individuals, because he makes them stop to feel so bad about themselves and their generally looked down upon behavior and gives it meaning by philosophical limbo and ensures they will never be able to self-reflect and see that there is something wrong with them.

>>17005841
doesn't seem very healthy or sustainable, not for you or others. ofc you don't do any of this you just read stirner or rather a bad summary of him and now you're LARPing. i've been there too lad. have fun, we're all teens at some point.

>>17006155
But you can't, which means it's solely a spook, a Hirngespenst, your anarchism doesn't exist.

>>17004255
>peak delusion
Prove they are unconscious to me, servant.

>>17001338
You remind me of certain shrill, politically active, well to do Jewish women who abuse the world fascism and label anything they don't approve of as it. I have no specific problem with Jews, by the way. But I notice this pattern, that these particular Jewish American Princesses will call anything fascism and deprive the word of semantic integrity.

>>17006908

>>17001465
>i make 9mil a year

>>17006857
It doesn't take long to read all his work. Wish he wrote more, I think people would see that he was not a spooked by his own spooks as some spooky people seem to be spooked out all about. He is the kind of dude that would instantaneously turn his sword upon his brother thought if his brother thought to make him a thot bot.

>>17006943
That's a cute one. I like how the bubbles mimic the smoke of stirners pic

>>17001522
The issue with Stirnerism is it essentially tries to reject the immutable properties of being human.

It thinks it has escaped the trappings of other philosophies by setting the smallest scope possible.

>>17007011
Depends on what you mean by immutable. We need food, we need shelter. Those seem kind of immutable.

and? Fascism is not a bad thing

>>17006067
children primarily cry too attract the attention of their kin, mostly parents in this case, to enact "justice" and get the toy back. with siblings this is very important. basically the child is confirming their protected status and it calms them. is entire genetic and nothing to do with the morality of who had the shovel.

>>17006067
>kids cry over being stolen from not because being stolen from is disadvantage but because they feel MORALLY WRONGED that their compatriot violated the NAP or something
Imagine being this indoctrinated to "morals" that you literally think children have innate moral agency. Jesus.