/lit/ - Literature

>>16983180
Didn't he know about the existence of Goethe (pbuh)?

>>16983180
Yes. Name a single playwright active in-between Shakespeare's death and Wagner's death whose plays have the same depth and power as The Ring of Nibelungen or Parsifal
>>16983190
Goethe is good but overrated as result of being the most popular writer from Germany's golden age

>>16983201
Goethe isn't overrated, but as Wagner noted, what he's doing even though it be in the playwright form, isn't entirely of the intentions of a playwright, in the sense of Greek or Shakespearian drama.

>>16983201
>goethe
>overrated
If anything, with all the glory that he gets he is still underappreciated. He was a prophet in the artist's disguise. Wagner is great but not as divine as Goethe.

>>16983236
Wagner is just as great and revolutionary as Goethe anon, but it is not wrong to say his art is of an end and not of a start. Goethe truly saw --and in large part owed to him--, Germany raise itself up by the artistic relation to life. In some sense, Wagner is making new just as brilliantly the old; and insofar as both Wagner and Goethe are poets, Goethe is the more original poet no doubt in the sense of one who sees the world anew, it is no lie to say that Goethe sets the age, but in their close interrelation Wagner is just as great, in displaying it (and much more, in what he revives from the Greeks, for example, that Goethe did not see at all) but in a completely different way. But again, not to say Wagner is lacking in that poetic originality.

It should also be asked, that as great as Mozart and Beethoven are, and all the great composers, what unsaid effect have they had on the world? Does Beethoven not inaugurate the new age as much as Goethe? Too impossible to transmute the effect in which music has had on the life of an individual on a whole, generally no literary piece or life is centred on a composer unless that person has a career in music, and so confined to music. The irreducibly musical nature of Wagner's dramas, is it not all the more harder to mark where he has and had not an effect?. He also had only the modern movements in the literature of the 20th century to come after him, no doubt 20th century literature exists only by the scruff of the neck by Wagner, but it would still barely exist without him. Goethe on the other hand had many giants to inherit him, Wagner one such.

>>16983180


AT LEAST HE WAS HONEST IN SETTING SUCH MEDIOCRE STANDARD FOR HIMSELF.

>>16983528
>le Maestro anon

>>16983528
pede

>>16983528
who is that pretty girl

>>16983574
Your gf.

>>16983767
I wish

>>16983180
What bust is this?

>>16984021

>>16984021

>>16983201
Wagner isn't a playwright lol he wrote shitty operas that only the upper classes cared about

>>16984498
imagine getting filtered this hard

>>16984498
Hitler wasn't upperclass when he regularly attended performances of Lohen

>>16984498
Hitler wasn't upper class when he regularly attended performances of Lohengrin as a boy.

>>16984498
Music dramas aren't operas.

>>16985148
He was larping and blew his inheritance on muh culture making him homeless.
Was he ourguy?

>>16985176
nope, he had economy class standing ticket

>>16983180
No because he was actually the best since the ancient Greeks

>>16985176
This>>16985196

He would typically be considered /ourguy/ yes, but point being that he was still a peasant who took an interest in Wagner.

Does Tristan or Parsifal more fully embody the Gesammtkunstwerk ideal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9loE2Hal48k

>>16985174
Nor are they plays.

>>16983180
No but he’s based for thinking so.

>>16985821
How is anybody who doesn’t speak German supposed to appreciate this

>>16984498
Literally the other way around dumbass.

>>16985821
in tristan he didnt put himself in a conceptual straight jacket in like in parsifal or the ring. but by wilding out he achieved a greater unity than could be achieved consciously.

>>16983180
Well, if fucking Wagner said it its probably true.

>>16984498
>shitty operas that only the most intelligent and best educated people cared about
O horror

>whole 20 minute sections of the Ring which are just characters repeating to the audience what happened in the previous opera(s)
He was good but really could have done with an editor sometimes.

>>16983180
No one should care about plays after shakespeare.

>>16986015
You aren't.

>>16983180
Ibsen

>>16986191
Then how can he be a great playwright if he’s only for the Germans. Shakespeare is for everyone.

>>16986191
>>16986235
as shown with the parisian tannhäuser episode wagner wasnt against a translation of the text.
with a few accidents of destiny he could have remained in france forever.

>>16986235
How the fuck are you supposed to enjoy Shakespeare if you don't speak English you retard?

>a single cord forever thrust us out of the romantic world and into what would eventually be postmodern dystopia
Why'd you do it, Waggie?

>>16983180
>Wagner thought of himself as the greatest playwright since Shakespeare
Well, Shakespeare was a plagiarist so...?

>>16986519
who actually created the narrative around it? ernst kurth (born kohn)?
if wagner had known the bullshit that would be attached to this by theoretical dogmatism, he wouldnt have written it.

No, I surpassed Shakespeare in my later works

>>16986015
Well for one, it can be appreciated symphonically with the words as essentially obbligato, but I do happen to know the lyrics anyway.

>>16986586
Wtf Wag is that actually you !? I've always wanted to ask, what do you think of Hitler?

>>16986519
Was it really that important for an age-dawning? And can Wagner really be blamed for the worst of the next period, rather than thanked for the best?

Germans are the most tasteless people of Europe

>>16987083
100% I bet you like frilly writing, like a little girl.

>>16986519
it's a bit of a meme. The second viennese school are a bunch of romantics really. Like the whole meme about "Gesualdo being ahead of his time" where Monteverdi was kicking about at the same time and far more influential.

>>16983180
Jonson, Beaumont & Fletcher, Middleton, Lope de Vega, Calderon, Molière, Racine, Sheridan, SCHILLER, Goethe, Büchner and Grillparzer were all far better playwrights than Wagner.

>>16987090
Like Wagner (the crossdresser) liked frilly underwear?

>>16987271
>Jonson, Beaumont & Fletcher, Middleton, Lope de Vega, Calderon, Molière, Racine, Sheridan, SCHILLER, Goethe, Büchner and Grillparzer
Wagner deals with most of these people in his writings, but it's obvious that you don't know anything about Wagner when you say people like Buchner are better playwrights than him. It shows that you hardly know what playwright is, let alone Wagner's esteemed framing of it through history.

>crossdresser meme
So you're a seething tranny?

>>16987271
>Jonson, Beaumont & Fletcher, Middleton, Lope de Vega, Calderon, Molière, Racine, Sheridan, SCHILLER, Goethe, Büchner and Grillparzer
Wagner deals with most of these people in his writings, but it's obvious that you don't know anything about Wagner when you say people like Buchner are better playwrights than him. It also shows that you hardly know what a playwright is in the first place, or understand Wagner's framing of it through history.

>crossdresser meme
So you're a seething tranny?

>>16987368
>no ü
Angloides Schwein. Du kannst Wagners Sprache nicht, also verstehst du Wagner nicht. Warum sollte ich Wagners theoretische Schriften lesen? Ich kenne seine """""Musikdramen""""".

>>16987394
>no ü
Angloides Schwein. Du kannst Wagners Sprache nicht, also verstehst du Wagner nicht. Warum sollte ich Wagners theoretische Schriften lesen? Ich kenne seine """""Musikdramen""""".

>>16987438
>LARPing as a German
Unironically kill yourself.

Wagner's prose works, as you must ask why you should read them, are some of the most important of the 19th century, really the most important after Hegel (and Schopenhauer) for aesthetics, not to mention in an array of other fields from psychology (just take how much he preceded Hartmann) to politics. Not to mention they're brilliant works on their own.

Plebs will always be pompously filtered by the idea of the "music drama".

>>16986504
A translation. Think before you post.

>>16987493
Do you really find it so unbelievable that somebody could be German? And you're trying to lecture me on a writer of music dramas in verse that you can only experience in translation? Why? Wagner was a great composer. That's it.

>>16987530
>You dare lecture meee!!!
How dare you be the judge of who be the greatest playwright since Shakespeare, when he is not even in your native tongue!

What arrogance. Nevertheless you are arch dilettante, and the "Wagner was only a good composer" meme is only proof of this. Every random music goer who has barely heard a note of Wagner but his preludes and overtures hashes out that useless opinion, when it is really quite baseless. Perhaps you don't know your own language too well, when you think the supposed "bad writing" of Wagner was by his inability as a writer and not for very intentional reasons.

>>16987621
How can you tell that Wagner's bad writing is "for very intentional reasons"? Why are you so myopically obsessed with an artist you cannot understand? Are you learning German, anon? Please be honest.

>>16987676
I didn't say his writing is bad, on the contrary it serves a very specific purpose within drama (his literary skill with this cannot be denied, just a quick perusal of the Tristan libretto shows it). Just take, for example, how often it is pointed out the difficulty in avoiding repeats in operas (the name shall do) so long. Which Wagner cleverly achieves in reducing to a minimum. Very often Wagner has some remarkably brilliant moments in metre, otherwise I don't think T.S. Eliot would feel the need to quote his Ring in his Waste Land or an array of other modernist poets admire Wagner's poetry at all.

Generally speaking anon, it's just that you're plainly wrong and uneducated on the matter.

>>16987676
Also it's downright shameful how badly you hide your ulterior intentions. You are given an entire box to speak with, any amount of time to reply, and you choose to confront me as to "why I'm acting so weird." You don't think much, and aren't in the least self reflective.

>>16987719
I thought it was Tristan quoted in the Waste Land?

>>16983201
Racine

>>16987083
Can't be true when A*glos exist.
>inb4 not in Europe
They basically are

>>16983180
Who cares about plays man it's 2020

>>16983201

Moliere and Ibsen are the strongest playwrights after Shakespeare. Wagner was not even a playwright.

>>16987736
If it was quoted in the Waste Land (I can't remember it), then both the Ring and Tristan were quoted in the Waste Land.

>>16986586
I too surpassed Shakespeare.

>>16985982
Exactly, they're a bit of both. So call them one or the other is silly.

Hofmannsthal was a better librettist and no one compares him to Shakespeare

>>16991926
stronger lyricism paired with weaker dramatic talent. consciously wrote for the tastes of a specific society and thus became "obsolete" after ww1. didn't unlock timelessness like shakespeare and wagner.

Wagner? I prefer Dr. Oetker.