/lit/ - Literature

Utopians are religious cultists. Very difficult to wake up. Logic and reason are not what they value.

I wish they would fix what's wrong with capitalism rather than tip the whole apple cart over to communism.

Utopia seems to require a high level of conformity that is largely absent at the moment. Sorry >>16912641
I didn't properly answer your question.

No, it's people blind to relativism vs. people blind to relativism. One kid chucks a rock at another, and the other chucks one back. Both kids are chucking rocks. Everybody gets hurt while the problems caused by a lack of civil unity get overlooked.

>>16912641
There is no culture war, there is only American retardation. Fuck America.

>>16912689

Is it possible to educate them ? Surely there are people on the fence who can be converted.

I imagine that the flaws in utopian thinking will become more and more apparent as their increasingly aggressive efforts keep being contradicted by reality.
The question is whether we can stop them before they set off some kind of global economic collapse, genocide, or whatever.

>>16912742
Also this
Characteristic of the burger is that no matter which one you ask a sizable amount of his kin are involved with some kind of vast and degenerate conspiratorial plot. No matter how you flip it, a majority of burgers remain retarded.

>>16912742
nuff said

>>16912742
>Fucking black guys to own their fathers.

>It's the weirdest cult, ever, their entire ideology is trying to make their fathers mad. I guess.

>>16912774
Why are amerishits so obsessed with niggers? (Yes I'm baiting for the pasta)

>>16912742
What are you trying to say?

>>16912823
Because the nigger is the only authentically American ethnic group now that the Indians have gone extinct.

>>16912641
>Is it fair to say that this culture war is a war between moral relativists Vs. people who believe in the existence of objective truths ?
kek

No, there is only progression of the technological system -- which both sides take part in.

>>16912641
The culture war is manufactured by Neoliberalism. It absorbs all popular sentiment and action and turns emotion into commodity. It attempts to make people emotionally attached to their product.

The question you asked would imply that each side had a coherent position. They don't. The wide majority of the population couldn't even define the word relativism. They're fighting for their team and what their team says. This polarization is a result of disunity campaigns going back to early American propaganda.

Utopian thinkers are very few. Socialism isn't Utopian or even an extremely popular position for an American. All ideology though, can create a rigid zealot. In reality we should be flexible, choosing what we think to be the most correct after informing ourselves diligently. This is a near inpossibility with the power of American media. Even social media. Even 4chan. All of these are used to controk the public in onebway or another. Even if it "feels" organic. It's often not.

>>16912641
no its trumptards vs everyone else at this point

>>16912641

no but it is fair to say that you are 19 and gay

>>16912641
You can't actually be a moral relativist, it's just a system built on a different assumption. The objective truth of a truth-based ethical system is truth, where the objective truth of a relativist system is !truth. Both can have powerful arguments from within their respective frameworks, but both ultimately retreat to axiomatic assumptions.

>>16912934
>The question you asked would imply that each side had a coherent position.

Well, I would say that relativists posit that no such position can exist. "There's no objective truth, therefore we must impose our utopian vision upon the world"

>>16913070
Find me a self-proclaimed relatavist that has uttered such.

What utopian vision is anyone pushing for? Better pay? Public healthcare? Fairness in law enforcement? Maybe it's your definition of relativism that needs evaluating.

>>16912641
Yes, that's exactly it.

>>16913106
>What utopian vision is anyone pushing for?

- Genders don't exist, anyone can be whatever they want to be. If you're not happy with being a man, you can get surgery and then you'll be a woman.

- Biological differences in race don't exist. If there are differences in outcome, it is because of systemic oppression, and we should manually impose controls to correct this.

- Free markets and economic agents acting in their own best interests are bad. We ought to micromanage the entire economy and distribution of resources to ensure fairness.

>>16912823
unironically pic related

No, not at all. Everyone is a relativist. Everyone's been relativists for like 200 years. There is no war between idealists and realists anymore. Realists lost. That is even more true in America (where there was never a strong realist movement) than anywhere else. Think about Evangelicals, for instance, who pride themselves on their focus on their own individual experiences with God. They're apparently supposed to be "realists" in America!
Anyway, on another note, utopian thinking has nothing to do with idealism, and the average person can't connect the realism/idealism divide with political policymaking. As for your political argument, no. Nobody wants utopian policy on either side of the aisle. No matter how radical you go, that will always be true.

>>16913125
>Genders don't exist, blah.
Sex exists. Gender is just language. Science and psychology have agreed that one can be born one sex but mentally relate with the other. I fail to see how this is utopian. A result of relativism, perhaps. Transgenderism has existed throughout history though. That we are allowing them to be accepted in society hardly seems like moral relativism.
>Biological differences in race don't exist.
Who says this? Biologic differences may exist, but race is immutable. Systems can be changed. Also IQ science is flawed and far from empirical. All we've found to be empirical in IQ studies is that a near countless ammount of biological, societal, socieconomical, and cultural differences effect IQ.
> Free markets and economic agents acting in their own best interests are bad.
You act like theirs a huge Socialist uprising in America. Bernie Sanders(a centrist) couldnt even get enough votes to win a primary. Further no one politically relevant is saying the free market is bad. Or that "economic agents avting in their own best interest" are bad. They're saying the free market has been rigged by "free agents" working together to control prices and cause wages to stagnate even while productivity increases. They're saying that monopoly is bad for society. That economic elite have too much political power.

culture war is just in a invention for retards so they dont grow a class conscience and unite against the rich

>>16913215
>Who says this?
not even who you're responding to but really nigga? did you just wake up from 2011? the idea that race is social and not biological permeates every major institution we have, and the logical conclusion of that (everyone is equal so any difference between races are due to racism) is used to justify every affirmative action policy, diversity department, racial grant program, etc.

>>16913242
t. someone who coincidentally agrees entirely with one side of the culture war while pretending it doesn't matter

>>16913248
Alot of it is social though dumbass. Anything you pin on race is also effected by social amd cultural systems. With the exception being certain few physical differences. Race is a pointless discretion

>>16913263
>who says this?
>actually, I do!
kek

>>16913275
I said "alot" of it. Not everything. Im not some rigid ideological zealot that has to pin an identity ribbon on myself and rife the coat tails of succesful men that I share a color with to feel worthy.

>>16912641
Its more for women and minorities at the expense of men. Equality of outcome and not opportunity. Inclusion prize politics.

Never mind that men are the population minority and whites comprise a world-wide minority of eight percent. Women as the majority, voting for a government to replace a man, because there are no strong independent women who don't need no man. They wouldn't last a week without the gun of government protecting them.

>>16913289
>Race is a pointless discretion
>Race doesn't exist
What's the difference

>>16913300
They're including women and colored people. They must hate white men.

Your mind on egotism filtered through propaganda people.

>>16913242
How do you fight the rich when they can just relocate their wealth? Its not like no one knows these people's addresses.

>>16913317
You can't handle equality of opportunity, so women change the rules. Same old song and dance. If you can't win , cheat.

>>16913311
It's a pointless discretion when talking about national policy and society as a whole. It exists as an observable feature of humans. However, if you want ti get technical. All humans have humanity in common, why make arbitrary decisions and assumptions based on race when all races are human beings.

>>16913317
Black people getting played again. Nothing new there. Meet the new boss.

>>16913330
The old cheaters being replaced by new cheaters. What's the difference.

>>16913125
Agree or disagree with any of those claims, not one of them is utopian and relativist.
>genders don't exist
This one could be argued to be relativist (it is saying you can change traits about yourself by choice, thus, that one's traits are decided by their choices to acknowledge them), but it could not be argued to be utopian. Indeed, the world in which transgender people are recognized as the gender they say they are self-consciously creates new problems (such as whether we should enforce that statement or simply allow it).
>biological differences in race don't exist, it's rather systemic racism
This is a scientific/sociological claim, not a philosophical one. You can be on either side of this without making a relativist claim. Neither "The science is settled; race has an effect on iq," vs "The science is settled; race does not have an effect on iq" are relativist claims. It is also not utopian. Indeed, it is dystopian by saying that we currently live in a world with externalities and that we should try to mitigate those externalities.
>individuals in the market should be controlled by outside forces
This is not subjectivist. Indeed, it fundamentally asserts that there is an objective good that should be secured by a state. Subjectivism would be the opposite (there should not be a state that decides for people what they want to spend on). This assertion is utopian in some cases but not in others. There are statists who say "More state=utopia," but also statists who say, "More state=bad, but not as bad as letting the market decide." This is just as true on the free market side.

It seems like what you have a problem with is sophistry (which exists equally on both political sides) rather than the real political views.

>>16913317
Show me the left part of the culture war that doesn't hate white men.

>>16913334
Huh? Even if its not real the historical uneveness of the catergories is enough for people to warrant national and political change. Its one of the most important "arbitrary" catergories that exists

>>16912641
What book is this about, faggot?
Go to >>>/pol/ and leave us the fuck alone.

>>16913351
Exactly. Let's cause the extinction of all sentient life. Problem solved.

>>16913334
No, race is only useful at all when talking about national policy and society as a whole. On an individual level race is useless because one person from a distribution could lie at any point on that distribution. But in aggregate you either acknowledge the difference in distributions between groups or you don't. If you don't then you need some explanation for why some groups consistently outperform others. You go back a couple decades and the explanation was clearly just a matter of funding. But now that throwing money at the problem hasn't fixed anything then there has to be something deeper, because again we're not just going to acknowledge the differences between group distributions here are we? No, instead there must be some sort of amorphous unspeakable trait in-born to the system, cue institutional racism and white privilege.

>>16913354
Lmfao. I've never met a person in my lofe that "seriously" hates white men. Nether have you. You see anti-white sentiment in everything. Its probably the baader-meinhoff syndrome destroying your rationality.

>>16912641
That's the way I see it too. Reality itself is now being deconstructed, the final stage of rationalism.

>>16913381
Yeah let's just forget about the BLM protests and throw that down the memory hole

>>16913355
Why?
>>16913377
Lmfao. There are many answers to what you're "based and redpilled" about. None of them having to do with race. I can't change your mind. Only you can. You've become comfortable in your bias, and have absorbed it into your identity. By far the greatest source of all of your
>difference in distributions
are socioeconomic factors. Of course, you're not at fault here. Half of the political and corporate elite in our country want you to believe how you do.

>inb4 pol meme comparing comptom to some bumfuck KY town with 1000 residents.

>>16913387
BLM hates white people? Source? You choose to be ignorant. You could change.

>>16913402
>I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU JUST WANT TO TAKE CREDIT FOR WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO SINCE YOU'RE THE SAME COLOR
>WOW YOU'RE SO "BASED AND REDPILLED"
>INCOMING /POL/ MEME
Who are you even responding to with this shit faggot. All I did was call you out for saying that nobody believes that race doesn't exist and then you proceeded to go on some anti-/pol/ screed about how race doesn't really exist. I'm not here to argue about race because I'm not some /pol/ tourist, what I found egregious was that you said that nobody believes that race doesn't exist...while you're sitting here trying to argue that race doesn't really exist.

>>16913460
Except I didnt. I said.
>>16913334
> It exists as an observable feature of humans
>>16913215
>Biologic differences may exist, but race is immutable. Systems can be changed.

Why can't you talk about this earnestly. If you parrot pol tier takes, you will be treated as such. Are you mad that nothing you insist holds up to real scrutiny?

>>16913381
Go to any major downtown. Talk to the black men panning for change and selling drugs. LOL. or just listen to them, you privileged faggot. Ghettos suck BTW. Or you could Watch Twitch riots almost any given night. Being this privileged.

>>16912641
It's a made up war between backwards retards and people with a bunch of different ideas.

>>16913485

Systems can be changed, to what end? Should beauraucrats be remedying perceived racial injustices? Should we discard with meritocracy to make ourselves feel that we are being more "fair"?

>>16913416
bro have you ever even lived in place where you couldn't buy organic onions lmao

>>16912641
Whoever still believes in an objective truth, what are they? Mediëval peasants?

>>16913515
lel you are literally fighting in it by calling one side backwards retards, how stupid and lacking in self-awareness can you even be

>>16913515
Nope, inclusions of gays has been a thing for more than fifty years- as has been inclusion of women and minorities in the arts and employment. Its crying after the cows have left the barnyard. Its regurgitating the talking points of the seventies with no understanding gained since. There is nothing left to complain about apparently, or they would come up with some new material. Black Lives Matter is a spook because it employs no logic or reason. If whites killed blacks in equal numbers blacks would be extinct in America. Now who is oppressed?

>>16913536
there are two genders and joggers have low iq

>>16913503
You faggot I work as a medic in a murder capital. Imenot racist specifically because I interact with the black communitt on the ground level. None of the riots are attacks on whiteness. You just want to feel that way because it makes reality easy to explain to you. Everything is more complex than some bullshit binary dogmata.
>>16913524
Of course they can. Zero tolerance body camera policies. Citizen review boards. Defunding would be great in our metropolis' where police buy 2 million dollar surveilance equipment that can legally record any cell phone convo in 5 miles. Fuck five eyes and the police state, of course it can change.
>>16913534
Always have. I'm poor white trash in the deep south. We get along fine with our black friends and neighbors.

>>16913402
So name them, he already mentioned that throwing money at communities doesn’t work so there goes you socio-economic factors. So what gives? He’s not the one who is biased, you are. Against a reality that is too hard for you to accept but glaring you in the face like a searchlight.

>>16913485
So do you think everyone who talks about white privilege believes what you believe, mainly that certain groups are less capable than others but rather than catering to the most capable we should cater to the least capable? That seems almost actively evil and self-sabotaging, whereas the more general "race doesn't exist so clearly the system is unfair" still attempts to present itself as the correct path by saying that equality IS the most strategic path. You're essentially saying that equality is not the most strategically sound path but we should still take it out of some misplaced moral duty?

>If you parrot pol tier takes, you will be treated as such
Where did I do this you faggot. You projected your own bullshit onto me and are not trying to justify it by referencing the bullshit your projected.

>>16913416
Not him but my two cents is the following. For the record I am not from the USA and I am half white. As an outside observer the BLM protests are largely peaceful protests but it is amazingly naive to think there is not plenty of instances of fighting, violence, and blind racism/hatred towards white people. It's very toxic identity politics and really this heavy focus on identity is the wrong approach to improving economic and racial equality. Why do you think ultra wealthy individuals and massive corporations such as Starbucks, Amazon, and Apple are "doing their part" in raising awareness and in some cases even giving money to BLM or similar organizations? The more they keep the lower classes quarreling amongst themselves over petty differences like sexual/gender identity, skin colour, or whatever the easier it is for them to keep doing whatever they want and run to the bank. There are 100% lots of black people that hate white people in the movement. Maybe that is not the official position of the BLM founders/leaders but you cannot deny that there are instances of hatred.

I hate this youtuber in general but this is an excellent video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olXipfCKUoo&t=7s

These protests/riots are also helping to spread covid 19 contrary to what your retarded leaders say. Your country is a third world, uncivilized shithole and I hope it turns to ash.

Evil, irresponsible, women think social media is a superpower in the form of cancel culture. Women have no individual power, so they cluster in herds for protection. Because the herd of the internet is too large to conform to, women and leftists turn on each other as soon their supposed enemy leaves the forum.

The internet will divide and destroy almost everything, including culture, eventually.

Kids with education and the internet are given reasons not to reproduce. Antinatilism wins when people don't reproduce. Humanity goes extinct by accident or design. Its fate is the same as all others who came before: extinction.

B-but its the journey not the destination. Tell that to all the losers standing outside the winners circle.

>>16913577
yeah bro come up to camden and take a look at what underfunded police does to a metro. all of the BLM shit just justifies itself by claiming that being pro-police is an extension of white privilege. fuck the police and fuck blm you're both scum and I hope you continue to beat on each other

>>16913633
>improving economic and racial equality.
Name one instance this ever really succeeded in. You can't, it doesn't happen. Also ignores that Asians out-earn whites even though there is obviously some racism towards asians in white countries. The entire thing is based on a refusal of rather obvious facts.

>>16913663
I live in a Nordic country (not Sweden fyi) and we are doing very well. We rank in the top 5 countries to live in nearly every year. Our system is not perfect but people are happy and economic equality exists. You're an American so you could never understand.

>>16913692
Watch what happens to Sweden over the next generation when all of a sudden their system has a 50lb weight tied around it and see if it stays afloat.

>>16913713
Yeah those Eastern European nations are really doing so well. Idiot.

>>16913692
Which nordic country?

>>16913724
What are you even talking about?

>>16913734
A homogeneous society doesn't mean anything for economic equality.

>>16913692
The minorities in your country have the same average wage/wealth and imprisonment rates as Swedes? Break it down by ethnicity. because that is what BLM are mad about

>>16912709
Based

>>16913744
It's not sufficient but it's certainly necessary.

>>16913592
"Throwing money at communities" never happened. Imenot denying that it's a complicated matter. There are solutions. We should change the way public schools are funded for one. Right now its done by property tax. Due to redlining in black neighborhoods the property value was always and still is low, therefore their schools are severely underfunded.

I worked hard to overcome my biases. Every human has some, I'm sure ai still have plenty. I'm doing better than he or you though.
>>16913614
I don't believe certain groups are less capable. Never insisted such. I believe each group is as capable as another given the same opportunity. That doesn't exist right now, and the reason it doesnt is because of a history of racism has negatively effected one group.

Your pol tier take was when you insinuated that something innatebto blackness has lead to their societal problems. That there are observable differences that only race can explain. If you came to this conclusion organically then I wonder how you ignored every other factor pertaining to human life and development and ended up with it's just race.
>>16913633
I don't deny that theres violence within the movement. It's been overstated to push disunity, but it does exist. As for hatred of white people. Maybe in very small ammounts. They hate racist white people. Which is understandable.

>Why do you think ultra wealthy individuals and massive corporations...? Well your assessment seems largely correct here. Disunity is a part pf it, espescially on the media side. It speaks to a different problem with our society though. To put it simply Neoliberalism and the corporations that benefit from it absorbs all of public feeling and thought and turns it into commodity. They will support any social movement that is popular because it creates an emotional connection to products in the subconscious of consumers. "Maybe we should forgive their greedy and harmful practices because at least they donate money to good causes."
They also make profit from doing this in ways I can't understand. They've found a way to profit even off of tribalism. Those same comoanies donated millions to Trumps campaign too, at least some of them. Another possibility is they want to allign themselves with the side that threatens their hegemony. Corporatism and poor business practices, like it or not, are only attacked from the left in the US. The left will boycott, cancel, or otherwise pressure change in corporate policy(Amazon and McDonalds wage increases comes to mind) whereas the right mostly alligns itself with late stage capitalism even if they do so accidentally via a political con-man.
Since this is lit. I think Adornos The Culture Industry does thid best job of explaining this phenomenon, even if I dont agrre with alot of his later theory.

>>16913774
>There are solution
name a single instance in which these solutions worked to create equality between blacks and whites

>>16913774
>The left will boycott, cancel, or otherwise pressure change in corporate policy
LOL
you mean the left will align with corporations because they stopped caring about class and started caring about idpol

>>16913577
Most black men cannot stand on their own so they form racial gangs. They will cancel you online if you ever challenge them. They are bitches who want to fight over the most trivial shit. Black women are the worst people to receive services from. They can't leave race out of it.

Tell me the knockout game isn't an attack on whiteness. Pull your head out, racist. I just want to feel like I was ripped off monetarily-and in terms of time, and beat up physically, because I was white. Pure imagination on my part.

They destroy public services like buses, libraries, and parks with their degeneracy. People don't leave their houses in government subsidized housing because of black intimidation. No one wants to go into major downtown areas because of black violence and their drug trade.

Taking statues of abolitionists down isn't an attack on whiteness. Okay.

I give each person a chance, but generally, blacks don't treat others with respect, so they don't deserve it in return.

>>16913070
You're combatting a strawman. I've never encountered a person who postulated that argument. I suggest leaving your hugbox and actually engage with these so called "relativists"

>>16913798
there is literally nothing less like a hugbox on the internet than 4chan. What other site censors less than here?

>>16913774
Indeed, I have read a bit about the Culture Industry in Dialectic of Enlightenment. I agree with your assessment as far as corporate links and neoliberalism goes.

>>16913577

>>16913774
>"Throwing money at communities" never happened.
Complete and utter bullshit. Here's a comparison of several large towns in my home area of New Jersey based on the aid they get from the state. Enrollment numbers are from Wikipedia.
>Asbury Park
>2,204 students district-wide
>$53,166,24 in aid 2019-20

>Ocean Twp
>3,458
>$7,472,79

>Wall Twp
>3,429
>$4,030,939

>Tinton Falls
>2,204
>$3,459,542

All within 10 miles of each other. Now one of these is a predominantly black town, which one do you think it is? You can look back if you want, it's been like this for decades. But yeah the state giving predominantly black school districts more money while they still hold significantly lower graduation rates (which don't even count drop-outs, mind you) is white privilege. Fucktard

https://www.nj.gov/education/stateaid/1920/District%20Details%20FY20%20Revised.pdf

>>16913663
>Asians out-earn whites even though there is obviously some racism towards asians in white countries. The entire thing is based on a refusal of rather obvious facts.
Black immigrants also often ou-earn whites. Black Americans aren't doing poorly because of "MUUH IQUUU", but rather 4 centuries worth of institutional racism. You know this, but choose to ignore it because race is an easy and concrete reason for racial disparities in America.

>>16912742
Naw this shit is bleeding into Canada too, and hard.
This country isn't even close to what it was 20 years ago but the division and general unrest I see now is 10 fold what it was five years ago
I'm scared. This country already sucks but I dont want us to be USA lite, which Toronto and Vancouver already are

>>16913893
>the most exceptional immigrants the continent of Africa has to offer are more intelligent than the people who go caught by their ancestors and sold for guns and horses
Clearly there is some sort of anti-black conspiracy. lmao go watch contrapoints you conspiracy wingnut

>>16913774
Schools currently have their highest level of funding, teacher pay is at an all time high, and class ratios have never been better. Yet student outcomes have never been worse. Why reward failure? This is one of those meaningless seventies talking points, regurgitated but never re-evaluated. The more failure that is funded the more failure will be generated.

>>16913893
>institutional racism

>>16913922
>The more failure that is funded the more failure will be generated.

I will never, ever understand why people think that, if govt. funding doesn't solve an issue, the problem was the amount of funding. As if there's some magical monetary threshold governments must cross before bad programs can succeed -- nevermind how inefficient governments are with money its given.

Clearly, it just wasn't enough money last time. This time, however...

>>16913804
it's not about censorship, but diversity of thought. 4chan for example has only type of user: far-right contrarian. engaging with different forums and online communities is a good way to escape any hugbox

>>16913893
Black immigrants do not out-earn whites. One specific set of them, Nigerians, selected from the elite of a country of 200 million, do better academically than whites, and they are set up to because of affirmative action requiring way lower test scores for blacks to get into school.

Do not even try to have this argument, you will get absolutely btfod

>>16913893
Why do immigrants outpace them in one generation, without speaking English?

Why has black owned business ownership gone down then? The racism closed all the construction companies down they used to own? Not likely.

>>16913943
4chan has pretty much anything you can find and that's because it's one of the few large forums left on the internet that does not regulate political opinion. Every other major platform has a strict window of what is and is not acceptable.

>>16913943
you yourself making this very post proves that wrong you fucking retard. A hugbox bans dissent. you can't admit that because you'd have to admit that whatever place you do like is actually a hugbox

>>16913892
So this is funding from this year alone and from a new bill. Apparently for the last ten years, funding reflected the 1990s in equitability across districts due to a funding issue related to property taxes.

https://www.njsba.org/news-publications/school-leader/november-december-2018-vol-49-no-3/state-aid-for-schools-explained/

>>16913893
Black immigrants from Africa are cream of the crop Igbo. Igbo average IQ is nearly 3 standard deviations over the average of any other tribe in Nigeria.
Skimming the top 1% of Africa doesn't mean American blacks will ever reach that point via whatever retarded policies you want to instate.

>>16913943

>>16913914
>racists are now denying slavery and segregation lol
Asian immigrants outperforming whites are the norm in their country of origin, but black immigrants doing the same are the exception, magical negros that only appear in rare occasions. Good to know.

>>16913786
You're referencing a very small window of rare incidents that don't reflect the overall and you're terribly butthurt about things you wouldn't even have heard about if you didnt brainwash yourself within an echo chamber of propaganda that is created by someone for some purpose hmmm. Could it be the infectious idpol crafted to cause disunity is perfectly performing the function it was created for and you lack the critical capacity necessary to question it?

>Billions of dollars in corporate grants given towards black interest groups
>Black student groups at every college looking out for exclusively black student interests
>Black employee groups at every major corporation looking out for exclusively black employee interests
>Government-mandated industry licenses such as those for marijuana dispensaries and growers earmark significant portions of limited licenses only for minority-owned businesses
>Ivy League institutions intentionally hire in indirect in order to maximize black acceptance at the expense of meritocracy
>Corporations offering newly graduated hiring programs only for black graduates
>Graduate programs such as the LSAT give significant boosts towards students who can justify themselves as Under-Represented Minorities (URM)
>Major banks such as Goldman Sachs are now requiring new IPOs to have at least one non-white on their board at offering
>Questioning any of this will get you banned from social media, fired from work, or expelled from school
BUT MUH WHITE PRIVILEGE!?

>>16913951
>>16913958
That's why 99% of the users on this site coincidentally happen to be far-right contrarians and any dissent is assumed to be a Discord/leftypol tranny that needs to dial8

>>16913982
>leftists are literally talking about magical negros in order to excuse african americans underperforming African immigrants
lmao is this a parody

>>16913982
yeah because Asian countries are functional and black countries are disasters, you fucking imbecile. If you take even a second to honestly consider all available evidence the conclusion is unbeleviably obvious. And again it applies only to that one Nigerian population, Somali immigrants in the US do terribly.

The more you say anything at all about this the more you will look like a retard. That's the reason this subject is taboo and your side bans discussion of it, it is so incredibly easy to deflate your lies

>>16914003

>The words nigger and faggot aren't censored they must all be far right nazis!

>>16914003
>posting in a thread where half the posts are arguing in favor of the existence of white privilege
>"99% OF THIS WEBSITE IS FASCIST!"

>>16913999
>Liberal pandering that only benefits upper/upper-middle class blacks thus defending upper class interests.

Wow

I am only harmed by the existence of a certain demographic in my society

>>16914028
>mobilizing billions of dollars and every major institution in the country behind black interests is white privilege

>>16914003
It's not 99% though, you simply perceive the existence of people disagreeing with you as your own side not existing, because you are so used to censoring dissent. This very thread has a bunch of people arguing against far-right views including you.

>>16913990
>rare incidents
lmao go to Baltimore or Detroit and see how rare it is

>>16913780
Sure, here's a list, and discussion about the legislature that made it possible.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/black-progress-how-far-weve-come-and-how-far-we-have-to-go/
>>16913783
You got a source for that?
Cause Amazon increased wages due to leftist pressure. McDonalds as well. The left doesn't allign with corporations, corporations allign with the left out of fear. IdPol is more present in online right-wing discourse than true leftist discussion. It's you guys vs Twitrer Liberals 24/7 and you both buy into it and spread it. They love you.
>>16913922

You got a source? A precursory look showed lower funding in 35 states than 10 years.
>>16913999
Good. I imagine these efforts will lead to good results.
>>16914054
I've lived and worked in the US murder capital. Im white. Was never harassed. Maybe respect begets respect.

>>16914014
To say its race based means disregarding the vast ecological and cultural difference as well as the negative impacts of colonialism and exploitation. Why do you faggots only cherry pick data to suit your internal bias?

>>16914072
the left suck off liberals at every step, the entire left has been made a sideshow joke because liberals can just send in some black woman to talk about racism and you all tuck your tails

>>16914087
>Why do you faggots only cherry pick data to suit your internal bias?

Irony.

>>16913990
No fucktard, I wasn't raised racist. At some point it becomes a matter of survival and pattern recognition to avoid the violent black man. He is 200 times more likely to commit violent crime than a white.

Especially if one lives in poorer areas. Especially if one does not do drugs, because blacks are afraid you will narc on them. Blacks are not afraid of jail time so they will try and fight you. Whites don't want to go to jail over stupid shit. Blacks are the fucking problem. How many generations of welfare will be needed before they produce viable citizens? I have never been on /POL/ not even once, so who brainwashed me, exactly?

>>16914072
>https://www.brookings.edu/articles/black-progress-how-far-weve-come-and-how-far-we-have-to-go/
I don't even have to read this to know that not a single thing in that article will show equality of outcomes reached between comparable black and white populations. If there is a section showing that then quote it/

>>16914072
>Systemic anti-white racism is a good thing

>>16914087
Because there is not even one single functional country on the entire sub-continent, or one single functional black city in the US or the Caribbean. There is literally not a single reason to believe that they have the same average intelligence or behavior. You have absolutely no fucking reason to think that, you just can't not think it.

>>16912641
I guess moral relativism (or deconstruction of moral values) is usually employed by the side currently in opposition. And it's totally one-sided. Modern right are far more deleuzian than modern left.

>>16913990

>>16914014
Asian immigration happened precisely because said Asian countries were dysfunctional. Somali immigrants are irrelevant to the topic, moron.
African Americans are largely the descendents of Nigerians/west Africans and posses identical genetic ancestry.
You're just another right-wing moron that refuses to acknowledge the role black people's limited rights contributed to their material conditions today so you place the blame on IQ and genetics.

>>16914165
>black people are all the same bigot!

>>16913990
Keep smoking that hopium. You think blacks picking fights is rare? They do it with cops every night. You think blacks destroying public property is rare? Its called Twitch. Go watch it. Every fucking night -until you get it.

>>16912641
No, idiot. Relativists don't care enough to go to wage culture war, they recognize absolutism as being valid in its own reference frame and are content to let it stay there because there's no way to beat perspective into somebody. Fights only break out between absolutists who believe conflicting things, because absolutism typically justifies completely subduing different-absolutists.

>>16914165
East Asian countries are functional, it is ridiculous to compare them to African countries. Somalis are not irrelevant, they are another example. Nigerians are not homogenous genetically, the immigrants that do well are from a specific people, the Igbo.

You have not even a shred of evidence showing that given the same environment blacks will have the same average intelligence and behavior as whites. The most rigorous evidence, the twin studies and trans-racial adoption studies, show the opposite.

You are brainwashed to believe something blatantly retarded, and you're also posting anime reaction pics so im guessing you're a tranny

>>16914022
>>16914044
>thread is me and another person arguing against an army of rightoids
>NOOOOOOO 4CHAN IS A DIVERSE PLACE AND RIGHT WING THOUGHT IS DEFINITELY NOT UBIQUITOUS

>>16914210
There are like 3 people arguing for right and 3 against, you are literally just so fragile you perceive dissent as a painful enemy territory

>>16912641
More like a war against the informed consent of the governed, instigated by wealthy demagogues who leverage commonplace dogma into cults of clashing extremists, and with particular emphasis on the religious dogma usual to plebs who not only blindly worship power, but whose aspirations for it have an increasingly desperate and self-defeating character wherever economies are in a downward spiral with such effects as a contributing factor to capital flight. It's a kind of scam that starts at the top, and is usual to decaying empires.

Culture is a social construct, just deconstruct it and build it anew

There have been 2 and a half generations since the civil rights marches. Black outcomes have never been worse. Maybe if the left quits "helping" black people, things will improve.

>>16914199
>East Asian countries are functional, it is ridiculous to compare them to African countries. Somalis are not irrelevant, they are another example. Nigerians are not homogenous genetically, the immigrants that do well are from a specific people, the Igbo.
Can you not read? Asian countries weren't functional when immigration occurred. Somalis are irrelevant because they're entirely different from west Africans genetically. They have null correlation with African Americans, whereas Igbos once constituted 30% of enslaved blacks.

>>16914199
>You have not even a shred of evidence showing that given the same environment
then let's first do that, moron

>>16914289
There is not one single reason to believe they are the same, you can't present one. There is tons of evidence showing they are not the same, the two studies I mentioned, as well as you know the entire world showing the same pattern.

Why do you believe they're the same?

I believe in moral objectivism but I respect those who don't.

I believe in moral objectivism but I respect those who don't

>>16913543
Shut the fuck up you backwards retard. Try again with a real argument, retard.

>>16914307
What are you talking about, schizo?
Let's first achieve equal opportunity than we can discuss immutable stuff like race.

>>16914364
It is funny when you are so bad at arguing that you preemptively contradict your own position in like one sentence. The best thing you could do is probably not talk because anything you say will hurt your own position

>>16914093
It's not ironic. Its always this way.
>>16914095
You're a dishonest little shit huh. I hrew up poor in a majoritt black area. Never afraid of black people. You brainwashed yourself. Probably on pol. If you havent been there buddy it's your place, they say thd same things as you ver batim
>it becomes a matter of survival and pattern recognition
Yeah...you've been there. Go back. Also post brain scan, I wanna see how large your amygdala is and how atrophied your left brain is.
>>16914099
>im not readin dat. Show me something that INSTANTLY leveled the playing field between groups with massively different histories and material realities. You lack integrityn
>>16914101
Pro black and and anti-white aren't the same. You see anti-white sentiment in everything.
>>16914108
Because I think rationally and explore other possibilities before becoming a fearful racist, that means I have a problem? Look at historical ecological and cultural differences. Look at the effects of colonialism and slavery. You're dumb and scared. You don't have to be.
>>16914196
>go look at an extremely small portion of people only being recorded because ofcthe extreme behavior of a minority of a minority and then judge the whole based on that.

Nah, i prefer rational critical thinking to fear based sweeping judgements. I've lived it faggot.

>>16914370
There are more female college grads than men. Now what?

>>16914370
Why do you believe they're the same when all available evidence shows that they are not? All studies of blacks raised in white environments show the gap persisting. There is no reason to think the gap will go away, so why do you think it will?

also you are not an anime girl, you are not any sort of girl

>>16914370
>Let's first achieve equal opportunity

We've had that for like 30 odd years senpai

This thread proves that there is no "deep philosophical meaning" to mainstream political debate. Relativism, utopianism, and so on have nothing to do with these discussions. It's just a bunch of retardation.

>>16914381
There is literally no reason to believe they aren't dumber on average. Why do you think they aren't, what evidence convinced you that given the same environment their outcomes will be the same? There is no such evidence.

>>16914381
Facts don't mean anything to leftists. Can't wait until they mug your ass. Go work a service job and tell me how much you prefer black business.

>>16914402

I bet you've got a huge IQ

>>16914421
No, but I tried to engage with the question in OP about utopianism and relativism:
>>16913353
Nobody's even engaging with the original question or anything even tangentially related to it.

>>16914433
Never seen a thread derail before?

>>16914442
No, I was just saying that this particular thread proves the original assertion (that started the thread) wrong. Subjectivism and utopianism have nothing to do with political debate, as displayed by this particular political debate.

>>16914381
>Pro black and and anti-white aren't the same so shut up and just let every major institution in the country give black people preferential treatment at the expense of white people in all of these 0-sum situations

>>16914381
Maybe because you're a woman, in mind, if not in body

>>16912641
>Is it fair to say that this culture war is a war between moral relativists Vs. people who believe in the existence of objective truths ?
Yes --a war between the supraculture of the metamodern generation --who know the truth-- and the many particular subcultures, and the general anticulture, of the hypermodern generation --who ignore, and sophisticaly occlude, the truth.

The northern former, being universal, and radical, ever engages with, and subtains under its wings, the chaos of the extrem(iti)es of the east, and of the west, of the former.
.
The differences between all of the aforementioned are ontological, and racial --being rooted in mutually adverse lifestyles--, before they are social, and cultural.

To the relativists rooted in the east, and in the west, the north is just another side/direction/drift, rather than what it actually is: the cardinal center.

>>16914417
What facts bitch. The ones better explained by socioeconomic factors and historical reality? Yeah we been over those. I worked a public job. I was a paramedic for 6 years and I'm a PA now. Ive interacted on ground level with blacks for most of my career. Get fucked whiny fearful bitch.
>>16914411
Who said that? As forbyour second point. Every study ever performed shows a marked increase among those with better economic and material situations(environment) science is on my side you disingenous little shit. The increase only trends upwards when you factoe in generational environment. I can't help that your worldview is based on flimsy science and compounded by non critical biased interpretation of already shitty science.
>>16914459
Preferential treatment? Whites can get preferential treatment at black majoritt colleges and workplaces. Go do it and quit whining son.
>>16914466
I'm a man anon. Im married with kids, and I'm happy. I'm not fearful of the "other" because the "other" resides within all of us.

>>16914457
The race question is directly related to both denial of objective reality and utopianism. The huge amounts of evidence showing race differences are 'biased' and deny the 'lived experiences'(subjectivity) of poc. It is possible for the future to hold pure racial harmony/equality(utopianism).

>>16914370
two term black president. Woman vice-president. You were saying something?

>>16914486
>Every study ever performed shows a marked increase among those with better economic and material situations(environment) science is on my side you disingenous little shit.
It shows a gap persisting lmao. An increase isn't equality, how dumb can you be

When the Xillionth dollar gets funneled out of the pockets of the middle class to fund more and more pie in the sky vanity projects to uplift black people and it finally somehow works; one has to think what we could have done using that same money on functional swathes of society.
I genuinely just do get the left perspective on this. This is just a huge sunk cost money furnace. All of their resources could have been used so much more efficiently by just normal middle class people who are proven net providers to society.

>>16914370
Another seventies talking point. Never re-examined.

>>16912709
>...while the problems that cause a lack of civil unity get overlooked.
FTFY

One doesn't really see the relativism (or appreciate its intractability) unless one understands its biological origin.

>>16914487
>lived experiences, etc.
Had people made that argument, you would be vindicated. Nobody in this thread has said it denied any living experiences. They've disagreed with basing policy on averages, the actual studies etc., none of which have anything to do with subjectivism or utopianism. Therefore, we can reasonably state that subjectivism/utopianism isn't present in real political debate (as proven by this discussion).
>the possiblity for racial harmony/equality=utopian
Eh, kind of. The position from a lot of these people seems to be "there's a lot of anti-black bigotry that causes long-term problems for black people." I don't see how that is any more utopian than "long-term oppression of blacks does not affect modern black people, rather, their inherent incapabilities are the reason for their poorness."

>>16914475
>...sophistical[l]y...
>...the chaos of the extrem(iti)es of the east, and of the west, of the [latter].

>>16914554
The latter is not utopian, it's pessimistic. And the people in this thread aren't doing it, but that's the mainstream position about race science.

>>16913902
Eh you're probably right maybe they'll collapse.

>>16914486
Worked in the ER and doesn't know that nigs nog. Riiight. So you worked a job where no one was going to beat your ass. Black men taught me to be armed at all times. They come after you in groups, because they are cowards or they get the hard prison nogs to do the dirty work. They're coming for you and your family, dog. When I grew up we didn't have to lock our house. What happened? HMMMMM

>>16914496
they must prove, by any means necessary, that their hypothesis of absolute equality is real. it doesn't matter if it requires destabilizing all of civilization to do it - the civilization does not deserve to exist if it does not fit the ideal.

>>16914554
and actually that one guy basically is arguing for lived experience, he keeps talking about being a paramedic and interacting with black people. He is getting increasingly flustered when I point out to him that there is no evidence supporting his position at all, in his last post he got so mad that he said that studies showing an increase in outcomes means equality, which is below even the mental capacity of a 4 year old who can tell that if you add water to one cup it can still be lower than the other cup

>>16914486
what makes you think that people who provide economic and material stability to minorities will outweight the desired result?
Because so far I've only seen decrase of standards and public education

>>16914572
>the latter isn't utopian but pessimistic
Well, there are two assertions there:
1. These races are bad
2. Oppression cannot cause long-term effects on the recipients after the oppression ends
This is equally utopian (in my eyes) as the former.
>people in this thread aren't doing it, but that's what normally happens
This can be used (in my opinion) to say that for most people, the race discussion is not subjectivism vs objectivism or utopianism vs pessimism but rather fact-judgements.

>>16912641
>culture war
Go back, this is a literature board.

>>16914600
That's anecdotal rather than subjectivism. That's just him using bad evidence and you saying it's a bad case study. He's not (I don't think) saying his experience would outrank a real study.

>>16914611
Those are not the assertions, the assertions are 'some populations are inherently dumber on average' and 'oppression can cause long term effects but it doesn't explain all observed differences.'

I really don't see what is utopian about either of those as opposed to envisioning a future where there is no oppression and everyone is the same

>>16914486
Pussy-whipped and brought children in to die in the unfair roller coaster of life on earth. What an ignorant brainlet.

If you are free of racism, why can't you teach the rest of us? It certainly isn't fun or advantageous to know that blacks are a coin toss away from whether they have a criminal record or not.

Oh, because you're not free of racism.

Don't talk about the link to single motherhood, physical abuse, and a life of crime.

Black culture sucks. It drags other cultures down with it.

>>16914495
It showed a marked increase. You asked for evidence that environment would change anything. It clearly does. That it isn't equal has many implications. Why focus on race, when many more causes exist and apply.
>>16914591
I never worked in the ER you utter imbecile. I worked in the streets. I had no protection. The reality that you can't seem to face is that the majority of black folks just want to live peacefully. A majority aren't gangbanging and the ones that do do it to survive and don't drag people who aren't involved into it. A lot of shits happened in this country. That you have to lock your door illustrates that Liberal Capitalism is utterly failing to provide an adequate existence for those trapped under it.
>>16914605
What are you saying here? Black schools are still extremely underfunded. The people who provide stability to them are the working class and in many communities the black market "thugs".
>>16914614
You know what. This. I took the bait and tried to explain with literature how Neoliberal Capitalism weaponizes culture.

>>16914643
>first assertion
Okay, yeah, you're right. I didn't really mean that seriously. I just meant it to shorten the argument.
>second assertion
That's reasonable. I believe, though, that at least some of the people in this thread have been arguing "there is no effect of long-term oppression at all," which (in my eyes) is just as utopian as the negation to the first assertion.
Although, yes, someone saying both the assertions you are saying is realist as opposed to utopian.

>>16914554
I'd say the former is clearly more utopian, as it harbours the wishful notion that in the absence of bigotry all 'handicaps' will be eliminated. The latter seems like a more sober (even if exaggerated) assessment of a reality that has no simple, feel-good solution.

>>16914679
>It showed a marked increase. You asked for evidence that environment would change anything. It clearly does. That it isn't equal has many implications. Why focus on race, when many more causes exist and apply.
AHAHAHA
just fucking lol at your entire worldview

Yeah the implications of it not being equal are that the races are not equal you dimwit

>>16914679
Cops clear the scene first, but keep fuming, dog. We know your bad.

>>16914679
and I asked for evidence of equality, not evidence of env changing things, you slimy toad

>>16914679
Thug stability schools. A new thread low. GTFO How'd that CHOP security work out? More dead black men.

>>16914673
I love my child and we live a good life. She will be prepared for the harsh reality of the world, although it is depressing at times. I don't give into despair so easily. That she got to enjoy life and share her innocent thoughts with me is quite a good enough reward.
>why can't you teach the rest of us?
In my opinion? Because you're utterly enveloped in layers of fear and propaganda and lack the real world experience to defeat your internal bias. It sounds like you're referencing American culture in your bottom post.

Would it shock you to know that blacks have sufferred relentlessly under opression for most of their time in this goddamned country? Their leaders assassinated. Cointel pro. Malcolm. Martin Luther. All of them demonized. Would it behoove you to learn that desegregation didnt occur until the 60s. Would it change your mind if you knew 70% of black wealth was permanently eliminated when freedmans bank foreclosed due to stock market gambling and business as usual capitalism. Would it matter at all if 60 odd years laters HALF of black wealth went up in flames when racist subhumans burned the wealthiest and most secure city in black American history to the fucking ground?
What about the CIA distributing crack to black neighborhoods? What about redlining? What about overpolicing. Stop and frisk. The drug war. Would any of that change your mind or is it too far gone. Too comfortable in your identity and your misconceptions to ever analyze your worldview critically. Or is it fear that keeps your mind imprisoned.

>>16914717
That's one inferrence you could make if you lacked integrity and the capacity to think a bit more critically. I don't even deny that race is a factor. I only assert that there are other factors that aren't immutable and that we could improve.
>>16914718
Cops didn't do jack shit when I worked you know nothing. Only time they cleared the scene was on suicides, shots fired, and the extremely occasional time they actually showed up before us on domestic violence calls. Your area must be nice EMT.
>>16914730
Which is impossible given the historical reality. You're a slimy one.

>>16914737
would it shock you to learn that there isn't a single nice black city in the entire world lmao

>>16914679
>What are you saying here?
I am asking how long do you think will the funding be possible for?If the demographic of financial providers is dwindling and the schools are still underfunded what makes you think the result will ever be possible without core funders?
this all sounds to me just an attemp to lower the standards

>>16914769
>I don't even deny that race is a factor. I only assert that there are other factors that aren't immutable and that we could improve.
yeah and you have no evidence at all supporting that you fucking retard. You have no reason whatsoever to think that race isn't the primary reason, when it clearly correlates more than anything else

>>16914737
do you watch your wife and daughter get fucked sometimes

>>16914773
Property taxes fund schools. If you don't live in proximity to a black school you dont fund it.
>>16914779
Every IQ study even the book you pricks lean on. The Bell Curve asserts as much. Get wrecked scrub.

>>16914904
Every IQ study shows that races have significantly different average IQs no matter what you control for. You will not win this argument, you'll just continue to look more and more stupid

>>16914912
No they don't. They show that IQ is variable based on a wide variety of controls. Fuckin pleb.

>>16914924
And they show that no matter which variables you look at there is still a gap between races. If there was a study that showed the opposite it would be taught to every child in the western world. The entire reason people hate IQ is because of this gap

>>16914737
Hmmm.
Who killed Malcolm X?
Who wrote MLK's speeches?
How much healthier were black communities during segregation?
What would blacks lives have been like had they never been brough to America (slaves for Arabs instead?), and would their descendants really prefer not to have existed or to have been born in Africa?
How much wealth has been redistributed to blacks since welfarism really kicked off?
Hasn't stop and frisk demonstrated its efficacy?
Ditto for broken window policing (overpolicing)?
Are blacks really going to be better off when hispanics take over the U.S. thanks to this anti-white narrative (or under south asian/mena people in Europe)?

You like to think you see things clearly, but your own warped bias is quite evident.

>>16913902
worst case ontario.
send in the space aliens

>>16914904
you've avoided my question, it's undeniable that the core demographic of financial providers are also educators, what makes you think that minorities will catch up to standards of the priveledged whites when they cease to exist or simply won't be able to fund educational or material needs of minorities due to small population?

>>16912756
You stupid fags don't understand reality either

>>16914904
I hate this argument. In Detroit, where I am from, schools are not funded exclusively by property taxes. They get state subsidies, federal subsidies, millages, charity projects, All in addition to the individual state and federal programs that pay for services that wealthy schools do not. In any case, many schools decade's (even in black areas) ago offered low-cost per head education with better results than today. The fact that double digit percentages of black kids leave high school illiterate in many cities has nothing to do with the amount of public money invested in them because it is often higher than that invested in middle class kids of any race. It has everything to do with a sick and broken culture which, contrary to your earlier statement is not American culture, although it is metastasizing like the tumor it is. Being an anti-racist is only good if you can also say that the predominant culture of another race is trash. There are plenty of black people that engage in a wholesome black culture, but there is obviously something fucking wrong with them when they have such low literacy rates, high violence, and a general bend against hard work and education that leaks out into the average, not just lowest life, black person. Interacting with most black people, although it shouldn't be frightening because they are not that likely to hurt you, is at least an alien experience because it is like watching a total stranger try to understand your society. Their similarities with white culture are limited to hedonistic pursuits, like clothes, houses, and cars. Even in academics, a degree is a way to flex social status on peers. The fact that this shit is encouraged and imitated by whites is embarrassing particularly because we were supposed to be raised to look beyond such trivial shit

>>16913263
>>16913275
it's always like this, hard to say why. The optimist in me says it people trying to flesh out discussion, the pessimist, those try to obfuscate it.

I have seen this so many times in different iterations and forms
>Here is my opinion about XYZ
>"LOL XYZ doesn't even exist incel"
>I happen to be someone who can provide evidence of XYZ
>"ok fine XYZ exists, also I am XYZ, but that's because XYZ is good"
it's so tiresome

>>16915243

maybe not
at least we strive to understand it rather than actively denying it

This is a dumb argument. Even if there is something concretely irrevocably inferior in any race, it changes nothing, they're still human and deserve the freedom to live as everyone else. Any other conclusion is just a narcissistic pissing contest.

>>16915425

there's a difference between allowing freedom and enforcing topdown mandates for racial equity based on perceived oppression

The real culture war is between the Cult of Saturn and the Promethean bunker dwellers, the culture war we are seeing is that on a smaller scale, and one sided already

>>16913902
I feel you. An entire generation was just raised online and can barely consciously differential us from the states, the one before that was raised on LPC multiculti koolaid and thinks the lack of a national identity constitutes our national identity. You could generate power at which the founding stock Canadians are spinning in their graves.

It's an Amerimutt world and we're all living in it.

>>16912641
The Mauritanians vs. The Herdsmen, yes.