/lit/ - Literature

>>16909256
I hope so.

>>16909256
Yes. He was right about nearly everything.

Is the only way we could save the west is by getting whites to procreate?

>>16909256
This book isn't about the west, it's a thesis that all civilizations have a lifespan.

>>16909256
It has already collapsed.

>>16909256
>Is there any truth to this
No. It's basically a work of alt-history science fiction before that genre of literature existed on a conscious level. If Spengler were alive today the intention behind Decline would have had a matching cultural outlet and he'd be writing Warhammer lore or something.

>>16909256
TO ANY RETARDS READING THIS AND THINKING YOURE SUPPOSED TO BLAME ANYONE FOR OUR DECLINE.

We caused this. Not some "other", we fucked ourselves in the ass with mindless capitalist expansion and technological advancement spurred on by mass excitement. We have hollowed out everything humane, and replaced it with machines, calculus and profit incentives. Everything is tied to an universal monetary value, and all alternatives to capitalism seem lost. Even the ability to imagine anything other than global capitalism has died. We did this to ourselves, we had around 250 - 300 years of political and ideological struggle, but in the end through generational shifts, the material hoarders have won and now we're just waiting for shit to unravel. Its already happening in the third world, but we wont do shit before it affects our walmart or amazon shopping experience.

>>16909256
No, there's no collapse it does what it does necessarily.

>>16909335
>we won't do shit until Amazon/Walmart
That shit about Blizzard/NBA etc was pretty funny seeing American's oblivious to capitalism not meaning "America".

>>16909344
Im not following, what happened with Blizzard and the NBA?

>>16909335
You didn't read Spengler so whats the point of this post? Leftwing meme bullshit?

The West declined because it lived out its primary symbol. That doesn't mean the West isn't rich and thriving in many ways. It just means we're in the long winter of our civ's existence. That can last, per Spengler, for a very very long time. But it is a cultural and spiritual wasteland where only money and raw power exist. That's why he wrote Decline. He saw this happening and believed Germany should swoop in as the Caesar of this long miserable winter.

>>16909355
I wanted to remind the usual retarded right wing faggots that blaming minorities, "da juice" or whatever boogeyman is fucking retarded.

>muh western civ chan is collapsing because le juuuuuice reeee
>reeeeeeee minorities, Donald Trump is savior because he gives tax breaks to billionaires haha, he says funny stuff about mexicans

These people cannot think for themself and their intellect is like an open mouth, waiting to eat the shit of conservative father figures.
The West isnt declining because we left conservative values, its declining because capitalism is globally ruining our species.

>>16909353
Lol it was in the news, the NBA and Blizzard and Disney I think banned certain pro Hong Kong speech and gamers etc because the market is in China and some were partially owned China. Americans were going nuts for freedom of speech etc and about being American and it was pointed out that this is what Americans did to other cultures. They literally destroyed other cultures with capitalism (some not so bad ofc, like Nazi Germany and the spiritual anti-materialist Japanese in ww2) even if it does bring some benefits. Just the ignorance was hilarious. The insight and point was quickly swept under the waning American hegemonic power they currently still have to allow their myth to continue for a generation or two.

>>16909379
Ahhh I see your point now. I completely agree, these people are delusional and are currently being beaten at their own game. American citizens want to benefit from global capitalism, while also upholding national sovereignity, which is hilarious to follow, considering they stand to lose in the competition they themself created.

>>16909353
They bent the knee real hard to chinese policy even in american jurisdictions. NBA silenced someone who posted negativity about china on his own personal twitter, etc.

>>16909344
>seeing American's oblivious
I'm american. Americans were more oblivious that anything china related was going on at all. I tried explaining it to people I know and they looked at me like I was talking about Q.

>>16909335
Yeah, I used to blame "muh jooz" because it's an easy target. Obviously they do shit that I don't like, but we allow them to do it. And even if it weren't the Jews American people would do the exact same shit. I hope the US falls sooner rather than later. The culture is dead, and every one of us worked to make sure that happened

>>16909368

>>16909368
What you fail to see, is that many right wingers/neo fascists are anti capitalists, and many realise that mass immigration and subversion are a result of the loss of societal/social norms and religion.
I think in this regard, left wingers are not any brighter, following occupy wallstreet, many have been lured into false causes, like LGBT and anti-racism activism. Those who could have fought the excesses of capitalism are now busy marching for gay rights or against the ghost of fascism while the very fabric of our western judeo-christian societies is being deconstructed before our eyes for maximum economical efficiency (destruction of the nuclear family, local communities (individualism), mass immigration, destruction of national pride and identity).
You're right when you say that many right wingers are looking at the problem the wrong way, but so do leftists.
Our democracies are hollowed, because we are all over-socialized, and the medias are all possessed by financial giants. Elections are won by the media, their influence is simply incredible.
We live in the biggest psy-op in the history of humanity, we've traded our kings for a false democracy where the media choses what we believe in and what we think, and ultimately who we are going to vote for.

>>16909448
I fucking hate it anon, I just want our values to come back. I don’t care what system it is, give me monarchy even, people are too stupid for democracy anyways

>>16909460
I think I've accepted the end of our civilization, I just hope Asia will survive to keep humanity going forward.
I just have to recognize the sheer genius of the financial elites, I personally know people (in France) who marched for George Floyd, thinking they were fighting fascism and fighting against the system. That very fact is just incredible to me, you know that the youth likes to fight and to try to improve the world, so you give them false causes, and see them burn with passion in a mock battle while their future is simply being traded for wealth.
It makes me sick, but at the same time, I can only recognize the intellectual beauty of it all.

Is the abridged version worth reading? Or do you need the full 2 volumes? The only decent copy to get new is an abridged version.

>>16909460
>>16909502

Accept the antinatalism+misanthropypill

>>16909502
I agree. I’m honestly on the side of the elites at this point, not because I agree with them morally, but because the fact that people are so stupid that they’re practically begging to be treated like cattle. It’s really sad, but I don’t think we deserve any better.

>>16909411
I don't speak to normies even my family about politics so I have no idea but on the chans, fb, politicians all I saw was china-blaming then. I don't see how you can argue about Hong Kong and not know it's china-related so maybe I'm misunderstanding you

>>16909406
I made a good argument on fb and it actually got news-coverage, at least the idea did lol

>>16909502
There's nothing beautiful about manipulating the cattle. The OP has an IQ in the 80s for even considering asking this question. The west died 2-3 centuries ago, we're just witnessing the farts of a bloated corpse that should have had a proper burial a long time ago.

>>16909535
No fuck off, I'll have kids, it's the only way we can fight nowadays, if my entire country has to die, at least I would have tried

>>16909368
I do agree but it's not just capitalism it's whatever succeeds it too. In general it's our definition of value being stuck at the notoriously-hard-to-pin-down freedom trait.

>>16909546
Its obviously more beautiful than the average persons awareness. They’ve figured out how to keep everyone enslaved, while making them believe they are fighting against oppression and hating slavery. It’s impressive ngl

>>16909368
Minorities are more of a symptom than a problem, yes. For instance African Americans are basically the same as Visigoths were in very late Roman Empire right now, they know that occasional riots will get them more gibs and privileges, so they do it every now and then to get them. This is of course a symptom of a problem of relying on cheap labour too much(or in case of Rome, being unable to sustain army needed to defend their Empire due to whole lot of different factors).

That being said we know damn well that none of the lefty solutions are going to address it, as the purpose of the left is to just turn everything around in line with whatever cult is dominant among them right now, this is why USSR was a worker's paradise even though people lived in shit-tier conditions there, because worker's paradise meant dictatorship of the party, KGB rounding dissidents and very small elite of intellectuals and bureaucrats controlling everything that happened, that it didn't actually provide prosperity(or rather, that western capitalist and mixed economies did it so much better) is a pointless criticism as this was just a talking point for communists, they didn't actually care. So as such, thank you very much, I'm not sterilising for the climate. Or crowning a nigger as a king for racial equity or some other shit you now believe in, because I know it'll end only on that, and the economic issues that remain(or turn to worse) will be waved away as disinformation or "fascist" propaganda.

>>16909565
I'll admit the social conditioning is impressive. I don't care for the cattle masses, but I don't think beautiful is really the appropriate word for something nefarious.

>>16909611
“Well-deserved” is probably the better term. You’re right it’s not beautiful but we deserve every bit of it for being so neutered and accepting of it

>>16909611
When I said it was beautiful, I was merely talking about the marvel of the human mind that it is, just like you can respect a chess move that leads to you losing the game, or the engineering behind the atomic bomb, it is beautiful in a purely technical manner, the ethical implications are obviously awful.

>>16909502
No there is nothing beautiful about it. What's happening right now is demoralizing beyond belief. Impressive maybe, but not beautiful.

>>16909540
People are limited, it's not their fault, do you blame a monkey for not understanding calculus?
People don't deserve what is happening, they are defending their own destruction tooth and nail, but they do not know what they are doing. They have been taught to think and act this way, therefore I don't hold a grudge against them, they are simply victims.

>>16909645
see
>>16909630

No, "Decline" (untergang, literally "under-going") was chosen by the publisher. The actual title that Spengler wanted was Umrisse einer Morphologie der Weltgeschichte ("Outlines of a morphologie of world-history"), but the publisher thought that was boring.

The answer is yes, but in Spengler culture-civilizations don't "die", they just lose virility and ossify. Once ossification is complete, they can continue indefinitely. China "declined" and finished ossification in like 200AD, it's still around.

>>16909671
China isn't being flooded by populations inherently incompatible with its values

>>16909535
50% have to take this pill and 50% the homesteading pill. Its the only way we'll live on

>>16909683
See >>16909671
It can last for a really long time, however what’s it worth? There’s no fucking soul, all everyone cares about is profit/material bullshit and they are making sure that it stays that way. All of our cultural values are dead, and will stay dead until some catastrophic happens

>>16909681
Correct, and neither is Faustian Man.
>b-but muh minorities
Faustian Man spent most of its history plotting to invade the rest of the world spreading his values. That is EXACTLY what the US is doing. Once they have those values, they come here. That's entirely Faustian. Besides, most of the people flooding the West are felaheen, who don't actually have "values". There is absolutely nothing in Spengler that says that niggity nogs and beaners can't be Faustian Men. In fact, Faustian Man is one of the culture-civilizations most compatible with global proselytization. What do you think Galatians 3:28 is about?

If you think Spengler is all about MUH POST-ENLIGHTENMENT MASONIC LIBERALISM, you are dead fucking wrong.

>>16909650
No, I would not be surprised if the masses agree to become genetically engineered to become literal cattle. They deserve what they're getting like a lamb or pig is bred to be slaughtered for food.

>>16909694
>most of the people flooding the West are felaheen, who don't actually have "values"
I can tell you are American, the migrants in europe have very defined values, mostly steeming from political islam, I can assure you that they are gaining traction everyday

>>16910333
No, they aren't, and they don't. The West is very good at absorbing these people. You don't like that they're different from your ethnos. You're falsely assuming that there's some ethnic character to a system that lacks it. Again, what the fuck do you think Galatians 3:28 means? What the fuck do you think "unite the whole world as one people with one religion, culture, and language" means? You don't get to keep lutefisk, maggot cheese, dirndils, and ethnic homogeneity.

Which is secondary to Spengler, wherein yes, these people are fellaheen. Magian Man has all but totally collapsed. Whatever """"""""""""""""values""""""""""""" these "people" have, they aren't the things that Spengler is concerned with.

>>16910412
>The West is very good at absorbing these people
no
t. britbong

>>16910412
>The West is very good at absorbing these people
no
t. frog

>>16910412
>The West is very good at absorbing these people
no in the sense of them merging with the local culture. Yes in the sense of destroying their values and replacing them globohomo ones
t. britbong

>>16910425
Again, Kebab shops and banning cartoons making fun of Muhammad aren't the things that Spengler is concerned with. There is absolutely NO ethnic or culture character to his culture-civilizations. There are European Magian Men (Bosnians), European Faustian Men (the rest of us), and there were European Apollonian Men (Classical Greece/Rome). There were also Semitic Apollonian Men, and there are now Semitic Magian Men. You could be an ethnically Chinese Faustian Man in China.

All Spengler is concerned about is how people perceive time and space. That's it. MUH 19TH CENTURY MASONIC LIBERALISM is completely irrelevant. Mahmud and Akbar consoom, they prodoos, and they see space-time as a series of fields overlaid over top of a 3D grid with a vector moving in it. Faustian man has successfully absorbed the fellaheen.

See >>16909671. Spengler is NOT about "muh decline and fall of the roman but american empire".

>>16910458
What do you think "Global Empire" means? Nobody gets to keep their values and culture in an Empire. Cultures do not have Empires, Empires have cultures that they repurpose and use for their own ends. This IS part of Faustian Man. Don't like it? You have to reject fundamental core principles that have been underlying Western political ideals since the fall of Rome.

>b-but the Jews!
Jews are why gays and trannies get pushed, but even if they weren't up to no good we'd still be in the place we are, Mahmud and Mgbuboo would just be being shipped in to convert them to some form of Christianity. The fundamental principles at work haven't changed, the coat of paint is just faggier.

>>16910466
>There is absolutely NO ethnic or culture character to his culture-civilizations
Never said anything about this.

>MUH 19TH CENTURY MASONIC LIBERALISM
Dunno what you are even chatting on about m8

>Faustian man has successfully absorbed the fellaheen.
Nope. They live a culture apart. They speak our language and that is about it. I don't care if this is Spenglerian or not, non-euro immigrants to Britain are in no significant way inducted into any local culture, Faustian or otherwise.

>>16910490
I disagree with absolutely nothing you have said here

>>16910495
See >>16909671. The "Decline" of Spengler has nothing to do with collapses or migrants or wars or anything. Spengler is getting at something fundamentally different.

And yes, there are plenty of Faustian non-Whites. It's part of the reason why Islam as an intellectual force has all but collapsed (it's completely pointless when removed from Magian culture-civilization, and just becomes a minor affectation).

test

>>16910525

>>16910495
the fact that they live apart is precisely why the system can integrate them. they are biomass and nothing more. ship them in, the consume, ship them out, its irrelevant. they arent people, they are a resource. the ones of worth (to the system) are extracted. these ones ARE faustian. they just simply are. they are muslims, but you can be a faustian muslim according to spengler. its incoherent, but you can do it.

In principle, Islam and Christianity aren't too dissimilar. They both share in being Abrahamic religions with a Greek substrate, the latter more Platonist, the former more Aristotelian (to my knowledge). So why are they so incompatible with us in practice?

>>16910626
Christians held that islam was not a religion but a heresy when they first encountered them. Muslims also took on orthodox aesthetics for the most part

>>16910626
>the latter more Platonist, the former more Aristotelian (to my knowledge)
Please elaborate. Never heard this before.

>>16910626
Western Christianity inherited Proclus style systemic theology while eastern Christianity and Sufi Islam inherited Plotinusian mysticism.

>>16910626
They don't share the same god. Islam isn't Abrahamic nor is it worshipping the same god of Abraham. Following this, both religions have completely different virtues and sins, we perceive Mohammad to be a kind of anti-Christ as his teachings (which are Shariah law) are of the devil. In practice, you cannot have both Shariah law and Christian natural law at the same time due to their contradictions. I could go on with miniscule details that distinguish the two like they reduce Christ to being just a mere prophet, or that our God is a triune one and their god is singular or follows the idea of "tawheed" which is the process of unification, the only commonality is an idea of monotheism, there's also the fact that their god is called "Allah" and ours is named "Yahweh" (which is more of a title than a name). But in the end there's too many contradictions between the two and we cannot be reconciled simply due to the fact we were never related to each other in the first place.

We can, however, live together in a secular sense as long as zero mention of religion is mentioned and we strictly follow a mutual/neutral secular law of the land, but this is a humanist, utopian pipedream.

>>16910749
Not to single you out, but when I read something like this I'm just reminded about how retarded philosophers are.

>yeah "insert mass body of knowledge here" is just inherited from "insert a single thinker who once remotely somehow expressed something that could very vaguely be tied to that body of knowledge but only several hundred years later"

KYS

>>16910768
Fuck secucklarism.

>>16910749
>while eastern Christianity and Sufi Islam inherited Plotinusian mysticism.
There has been some infleunce of neoplatnonism in Sufism but it's not the entire picture

>>16909256
Spengler has been thoroughly debunked by several breadtubers. Stop buying into incel pseudoscience.

>>16909535
If all the left wingers took this pill and all the right wingers took the homeschool+have big families pill we would be far better off to be sure. Not that this needs to be 'made' to happen, it already is happening.

>>16910772
Scholasticism was literally inspired by Proclus' Elements of Theology and pseudo-Denys' work (which copies Proclus verbatim at points).
One of the key texts that inspired early Sufis was a tome claiming to carry some obscure writings of Aristotle, but was actually parts of Plotinus grafted together.

>>16910772
Ummm sweety it's totally clear that Christianity is just Jews with platonist metaphysics.

Umm sweety it's totally clear that Jesus was just an apocalyptical prophet.

Ummm sweety it's totally clear that Trump is just a populist.

Umm sweety it's totally clear that that this is just late stage capitalism.


KYS

>>16910777
I concur, brother.

>>16910790
Wow you managed to display exactly what I accused you of, retard.

>>16910790
>One of the key texts that inspired early Sufis was a tome claiming to carry some obscure writings of Aristotle, but was actually parts of Plotinus grafted together.
Just a note that it was due to a transaltion error of some kind that the works of Plotinus were called by Aristotle

>>16909256
eggman lole

>>16910790
Umm sweety Neoplatonists were inspired by Platonists who really just copied Egyptians. Everybody knows scholasticism is just formalized Egyptian oral philosophy.

>>16910813
>formalized Egyptian oral philosophy.
AKA throat fucking

>>16910813
This but unironically.

>>16909692
Sure but new ones can be born and be participated in by our descendants in the future. There are plenty of 'Faustians' in Spain, Portugal and Northern Italy that have ancestors who were fully Roman, yet here they are participating in this civilization.
Also, understand that though 'art' and 'soul' may be largely dead (until such a time as we fall and a new culture shapes out of us afterwards, or die out) Spengler points out that there are plenty of worthwhile achievements still to be done after ossification, political/economic/engineering marvels can still be had.
Beyond all of this, like Hamilton talks about in 'mythology' part of Norse/Teutonic culture is the idea that courage is fighting with everything you've got against a predetermined event. Charging a wave with an axe style. If Spengler is right about the apocalyptic end of Faustian man, if we explode/implode in some way or another there is great opportunity there for amazing things. If you are Faustian embrace the decline and to use a poltier meme ride the tiger into battle and live out your destiny to its fullest. If we are in inevitable decline than be like Sisyphus, or go N mode with 'amor fati'.

Lots of incredible moments to be had in our civ even at its end!

>>16910860
predetermined events don't exist. at best spengler can talk about probabilities.

>>16910490
If you had lead with this post you would be more understood, the sperging about masonic liberalism and stuff really hurt what you're trying to say which is actually correct, but you're forcing people to jump through a lot of hoops to actually listen to you especially when you begin by attacking everybody based on things no one here has actually said. Don't mean to put you down or anything.

>>16910891
also there's really no way to tell to what kind of scope the spenglerian cycle would apply to. you can find spenglerian movements within any specific scope you look at. if humans colonize space then the entire history on earth would probably turn out merely to be one of the first stages of human civilizational progress. because of this spengler to me doesn't invite any kind of pessimism.

>>16910490
Christianity precedes the West and will survive the fall of the West.

>>16910490
I know nothing of Faustian ideas, it seems what you're trying to say is that the west never believed in nations built by cultures, but nations/kingdoms/empires securing specialised cultures for their bidding. Would this be correct?

>>16910924
Christianity is the West, they will rise or fall together.

>>16910891
What's your point?

>>16910813
based

>>16910949
Christianty is not the West but the West is Christianity. Which is why the West emptied of its Christian fundamentals will fall, but the Christian faith will not.

>>16910951
That the whole hero against predetermined event idea is retarded.

>>16910908
Perhaps you misunderstood me, I was replying to a very pessimistic poster saying even if apocalyptic visions along Spenglerian lines were true there would still be much to live for. I certainly don't believe in a predetermined pessimistic world myself, I just wanted to show that anon that even is his vision of coming times is correct still worth living.

As far as looking at cycles goes keep in mind a 'Spenglerian cycle' is one type of cycle, that doesn't mean that other ones can be ongoing around it. Every day is literally a cycle between night and day with spring (dawn) summer (midday) autumn (evening) and winter (night). If you read Glubb's fate of empires you might be convinced empires go through cycles of ~250 years. In my view you can probably find infinite or near infinite cycles going all the way down to life and death of cells or smth and all the way up to life and death of stars. Humans, their cultures and nations and existence itself follow cycles in between those extremes

>>16910963
Bold move calling hero against predetermined event idea retarded in a Spengler thread.
Also bold move in general considering there are literally millions of predetermined events that have and will happen. Every single human born since first one to now has died eventually, so there's your predetermined event you can live out heroically against, fighting into old age even tho you know you'll lose eventually. At least that's how it's been until now maybe you think we'll discover to elixir of immortality within this generation idk

>>16909256
In history books the dates of the start and end of the western civilization will be 800ad - 1914ad. The west has already collapsed we’re merely living in the wreckage. Whatever is able to rise out of this rotting and degenerative mess at this point will be something entirely new and unique.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58eXnwsSiEA

oh, it's this thread again

the west died 4 centuries ago

>>16911002
if death was predetermined you'd be able to know the date you'd die on and the cause. but you have no such knowledge because death is a banal event such as your body not being able to function anymore with no other specifics. there is no determination in it let alone pre-determination.

>>16911010
Thank you, I've been saying this for so long. I would change the dates from about 300 AD - 1800 AD, even if the effects didn't start to show until 1914.

>>16911056
You are determined to eventually die, though.

>>16909335
>>16909337
I mean jews are certainly a part of the decline but bitching about them is impotent. Like any great civilization we opened the doors to our own demise, others are simply taking advantage of it.
I just want to see a self sufficient colony on Mars before I die to be honest.

>>16911056
Lol are you making the argument that if we are not aware of 100% of the specifics of a predetermined event than its not actually predetermined.

People in ancient Egypt do not need to know the date they'd die on to know that one day they'd die and that that is a foregone conclusion that is inescapable.

>>16909256
Yes, but not in the way most people would see as a collapse.

>>16911010
To nitpick I would say the full brunt of decline begins in 1914, and that everything after that is the symptoms of decline and now we are undergoing the ossification of the West. Whatever comes next will not be new but an amalgamation of old ideas repurposed to keep w/e remnants of us there still are alive until we die out or are the seed from which something new is born

>>16911024
I've probably posted in this exact or close enough thread like 5 times in the past 6months and thoroughly enjoyed it each time. Thank you OP for keeping me entertained during 'rona

>>16909368
You are right in as much as we should focus on us and the ability to solve the problems rather than rally around the problem in order to make an excuse for one's inadequacies.
>waiting to eat the shit of conservative father figures
Have you considered where this desire for father figures comes from? Hmm

>>16910768
>They don't share the same god. Islam isn't Abrahamic nor is it worshipping the same god of Abraham
Christians, Muslims, and Jews conceptualize themselves as worshiping the same God, just incorrectly. Perhaps YOUR unorthodox theology holds them as different, but actual Christians, Muslims, and Jews disagree with you.

>>16910924
Correct.

>>16910930
No, that's how empires operate. Faustian Man is the culture-civilization that resulted from the Germanics in Europe in 900AD. Faustian Man doesn't have opinions on nationstates or cultures, it's just a way of conceptualizing space time (see >>16910466).

Empires are abstracted process-systems. Empires are unrelated to any of Spengler's culture-civilizations. The Mongol empire was a fellaheen empire (fellaheen are people who do not "partake" in a culture-civilization. History "happens to them", they do not "make history happen"). Empires are really irrelevant to Spengler. Empires view people as resources for their own ends. A "people" can never "have" an Empire, they can only have an empire ruling over them. An Empire cobbles groups of people together to fulfill roles in it. For example, the Roman Empire used Romans as soldiery, but then later adopted Germanic ones. So too, it can do with its ruling class (the Anglo Empire replaced its ruling Anglo elite with a Jewish one, for example). An empire is a system, again, no group of people "owns" it, but an Empire can own a group of people. The Ghurkas are an example, in that they were owned by the British empire and used as a tool.

This is just how empires work. The English didn't "own" the British empire, but it owned them. You can benefit from being owned, but you are owned. When it is no longer beneficial for an empire to retain a specific relationship, it changes. To put it another way, you can't go out and conquer Africa, Christianize them, and build roads from Nuremberg to Nigeria, and then be shocked when the Nigerians take that road to Nuremberg. When you create an Empire that, say, ends ritual shamanism in the name of Christianity (but really in the name of capitalism), you cannot be shocked when that empire turns around and ends ethnic homogeneity in the name of Christianity 2.0 (but really, in the name of capitalism).

I just started today

>>16911502
Remember to take notes, especially on what seems intriguing but a little abstract to you.

>>16909256
If it did, it would just collapse into a better version of the collapse every other part of the world also experienced. Then after another renaissance it would reform into a superior version of civilization. Better people, better outcomes, better societies.

>>16911491
>Perhaps YOUR unorthodox theology holds them as different, but actual Christians, Muslims, and Jews disagree with you.
No, they'd fully agree with me and so would you if you knew anything about Islam or their form of worship. For example, they have pagan practices such as praying towards a black box and kissing black stones, we don't do any of that, it's completely foreign to us. This is because Mohammad was attempting to merge multiple religions into one cosmopolitan one and have himself be the leader of this cult. I'll say this again, we don't have the same god as the islamic one, their concept of god isn't even the same, they have no relationship with their god and won't even see him in their "heaven"/harem.

>>16911491
So you're saying that an empire is simply an abstract administrative system independent of cultural will and it is to fault of empires that we have an interconnected world with foreign cultures participating in the west since the empire doesn't care about the culture as long as it feeds the system.

>>16911555
Checked
How do you usually take notes anon? I usually just highlight some passages here and there that really stand out.

>>16909256
Why do you need this book to come to that conclusion? Look around you; there's plenty of evidence
f.r.

>>16911662
Precisely. No action can ever be one-way. The moment you allow your own to go to other countries, you allow them to come in. A good example is Franco, a firm proponent of Spanish colonialism, using colonial soldiery to fight in the Spanish Civil War. This was also a big point in Franco-German conflict, as the French literally wanted to drown the Germans in African rape-slaves after the Germans humiliated Napoleon.

The problem of (((diversity))) in the West is ultimately just the result of European empires finding other parts that work better than Europeans. Jews displaced Anglos because they "manifested certain effects" better. Some other group could displace the Jews, but they'd have to "manifest that effect" better than the Jews.

>>16911604
Again, YOU might hold that in your personal theology, but actual Christians would disagree with you. Whether they're ACHTUCHCUUUYUALLY worshiping Apollyon, Termagant, and Baphoment or not is really irrelevant, because they conceptualize themselves as being worshipers of the God of Abraham, and all orthodox Christian denominations conceptualize them as doing so, albeit in a totally improper manner.

>>16911786
The lesson learned is that if you’re going to invade a country, exterminate the population and replace them with your own

>>16911699
>I usually just highlight some passages here and there that really stand out.
I do this in respect to anything that seems to "jive with" other authors. So if Spengler says something that reminds me of Ruskin, or Matthew Arnold, I'll write it out to see why it appears to connect. It's just an artistic craft and not a particularly literary or scientific one. Mainly it's just concise points or notions.

>Faustian soul-forces
1. Biblical Japethites
+ Danaan Greeks
"Greek" notions in Ruskin
Florentine designo
America and Reformation Europe. Age of Discovery during the Modern Era.

>Classical soul-parts
2. Biblical Phoenicians
+ Dorians
"Gothic" era of art and architecture in Ruskin
Venetian colorito

>Magian soul-substances
3. Biblical House of Omri
Ephraim
"Romanesque" art in England
Principles and lawful character.

>>16911786
>all orthodox Christian denominations conceptualize them as doing so, albeit in a totally improper manner.
But they don't, we literally think they worship a god other than the Christian one. The only people conceptualising the worship of the Abrahamic god are the Muslims, nobody else believes they're worshipping the same god, albeit in an "improper manner". Also, why are you using orthodoxy as an example? Use Catholics who are dying to make any excuse for ecumenism with the mohammadans.

I glanced through the first 5-7 replies and obviously no one has read the book. Which is both typical and disappointing.

Spengler’s work has a clickbait title, but it’s scholarship goes far beyond what the title suggests.

>>16911893
>because they conceptualize themselves
Dog-pilling in to say you're missing the point here, a point that I think was made very clearly.
The poster you reply to literally says it doesn't matter what others think because they see themselves as worshiping the Abrahamic God whether other faiths do or not, and you respond by saying other faiths don't think that only they do. Like yeah, that's literally his point you two agree on this.

>>16911893
Catholics and all forms of Orthodoxy right off the bat hold it is doctrine that Muslims worship the same God as them, they just do it incorrectly. Most Protestants do as well, namely Lutherans.

Also, just so you're aware, "orthodox" has specific implications in Christianity outside of its reference to "Eastern Orthodoxy".

>>16911919
>Catholics and all forms of Orthodoxy right off the bat hold it is doctrine that Muslims worship the same God as them, they just do it incorrectly.
You know that Catholics worship Jesus Christ as the Messiah, or God-as-the-Son-of-Man?

>>16911911
Checked
To be fair, he did regret the clickbait title and that it had become more of a catchphrase people who had not read his work parroted all the time.

>>16911604
>For example, they have pagan practices such as praying towards a black box and kissing black stones

And drinking 'the blood of Christ' and 'eating his body' is not pagan?

>>16911604
>we don't do any of that, it's completely foreign to us.
As a Christian I must point out that we symbolically practice ritualistic divine cannibalism at least once a month, in addition to genital mutilation to honor a pact made by a Bronze Age tribesman in a desert 3,000 years ago.
If you fail to see that “pagan” streak that runs through Christianity you have failed any sort of self awareness and I strongly suggest you explore the pedigree of your culture.

>>16910333
this is true, american can't understand this. two thirds of my family lives in german speaking countries, for more than 35 years. yet, they act like worst nationalist, send their kids to all kind of folklore organisation, always vote right, and absolutely hate and distrust country they have migrated in. we, that are left, mostly hate them.

>>16911969
>And drinking 'the blood of Christ' and 'eating his body' is not pagan?
No, because we don't literally drink blood or eat flesh. By definition paganism exists outside the church.
>>16912000
Read above. We don't participate in genital mutilation, this was already settled 2000 years ago. You must be an American, I'm sorry for your loss.

>>16911935
And that God is the God of Abraham... Who Muslims say that they're worshiping... and who Jews say that they're worshiping...

So, hrm... Christians say they worship the God of Abraham... As do Jews... And Muslims... So while we can postulate that one, or possibly none, or maybe all three, are right about what the God of Abraham wants... It's clear that all three claim that they... worship the God of Abraham...

Hrm...

>>16912057
>t. based and redpilled traditionalist sspx first-generation catholic living in punksatawney, MA
lol

>>16912018
thats sort of what he is getting at, though. these people will be lead along by whatever theyre told by those folklore organizations after all.

>>16911914
Read what he's posting, nigger. He claims Christians believe that Muslims worship the same god as us, the only difference is the form. This is entirely incorrect and he knows nothing of either religion.
>>16911919
I'm done arguing with you, please stay out of matters you have no understanding of.

>>16912118
>t. based and redpilled traditionalist sspx first-generation catholic living in punksatawney, MA
Lmao, nah not a Catholic. Gnight anon.

/toy/ here.
What is my place in this?

>>16912222
You manufacture idols to appease the stunted sensibilities of a naturally religious caste of people. These idols grant personal meaning, which is in short supply during the winter of civilization.
In local lingo, you’re an autist and a fag, and worse than both of those you’re not based.

>>16911604
You can tell this poster is the type of person who was educated in Christianity online, and barely interacts with Christians in his real life. Ordinary Jews, Christians, and Muslims - even the hyper conservative ones (even the politicized ones!) harp on about unity and similarities between the faiths.

>>16912078
You could worship Zeus and claim to relate it back to Abraham... does that make the pagan abrahamic? Does that make Zeus "the same god"?

>>16912266
I might not be the best example of /toy/ to be honest. My toys are just toys to me and I don't have that big of an attachment to the characters themselves, neither do I feel obligated to complete a certain cast from a show or re-enact a scene from an old cartoon. But I know of people like that.
Like, I want a good Superman toy because the guy already looks like a toy not because I worship him. Though I do think he is a good example for people to follow.

>In local lingo, you’re an autist and a fag, and worse than both of those you’re not based.
Is there a way out for me?

>>16912269
They're not Christians, they follow the modern cult of ecumenism. There's books written on this very topic, I suggest you read them. Again, you know nothing on this topic, anyone above 90 IQ would know we have nothing in common.

>>16909256
>collapsing
collapsed

>>16912458
Ecumenism only applies to Christcuck denominations.

>>16912468
No, it applies to every religion. We have held major religious conventions in Rome, Geneva, and other places all in worship of "the same god" regardless of which religion they claim to be from even if it directly contradicts the Christian doctrines.

>>16912078
>So, hrm... Christians say they worship the God of Abraham... As do Jews... And Muslims
Can't say about the Jews, but as far as Christians and Muslims are concerned, they don't worship the same God. Christians may have worshipped him before they modified the Christianity over the years, as Muslims believe, or they may have never worshipped it, but all I know now that they don't

>>16910772
Fucking idiot

>>16910801
Anyone that claims to be enlightened but has no historical background is a retard. Kill yourself you fucking idiot

>>16912157
>I know more about Christianity than the Pope and all of the Orthodox Patriarchs
This is your brain on plebbit.

>>16912359
Maybe, maybe not. It's really irrelevant. But if you say that you worship the God of Abraham, as Christians, Muslims, and Jews do, then you say that you worship the God of Abraham. And if you believe that other groups worship the God of Abraham, albeit in a completely wrong manner, then you believe that the other groups worship the God of Abraham, albeit in a completely wrong manner. It's literally in the Quran that Christians and Jews worship the God of Abraham, albeit incorrectly. It's in the Bible, and has been Christian tradition since Jesus, that Jews worship the God of Abraham, albeit incorrectly. Likewise, the Pope, and every Orthodox Patriarch, have stated that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, albeit incorrectly.

Whether or not Zeus, or Vishnu, or Amaterasu, or whoever or whatever really IS the God of Abraham is irrelevant. What you want to classify as "pagan" is irrelevant. All this discussion is about is whether or not Muslims believe that they worship the God of Abraham, and that Christians believe that Christians THINK that Muslims are worshiping the God of Abraham. In both cases, they do. It's literally that simple. There's just one autist getting butthurt about how no ackshyually they openly worship demons or whatever. Maybe they actually ARE worshiping Mahmud, Termagant, and Apollyon, and exulting their high priest Baphomet, but they don't think they are.

>>16909256
Reading through this thread I notice that 5 or 6 times someone has preemptively said 'but da juice/jooz' out of nowhere.

>>16912429
>My toys are just toys to me and I don't have that big of an attachment to the characters themselves, neither do I feel obligated to complete a certain cast from a show or re-enact a scene from an old cartoon.
If you don't mind my asking, what is your interest/purpose in collecting them?
Do you collect a certain type of toy, and if so, why?
>Though I do think he is a good example for people to follow.
Have you read the power of Myth by Joseph Campbell? If not, you should. And I mean that sincerely.
>Joseph Campbell
I know, but this is a fantastic entry point for someone who is unfamiliar with this subject matter.

>Is there a way out for me?
Depends. I always assumed everyone on /toy/ is just a vapid consoomer. Answer my questions and we'll see what we're working with.

Do you goys think Israel/Zionist culture could be a new possible high culture like he talks about with the Russians?

>>16913363
No. There are many reasons for this, but the short answer is no.

>>16909419
Every country has only as many jews as it deserves.

>>16909333
Yeah but it would be some good ass lore

>>16909502
>>16909502
>Asia
>Progress
Top kek anon

>>16909368
>West isnt declining because
I would like to make clear that this right here is what Spengler wrote the Decline of the West against. Spengler does away with causality in his methodology entirely because of the world improvers. There is no way to fix the west because there is nothing that is causing the west to die. Minorities are not, capitalism is not. It is natural for something to grow old and die, and if the west was not doing it via capitalism (assuming we are which I could object to) we would find something else to replace instead via our money and intellect politics in which rule our age.

>>16909368
Lol I’m not into Spengler but you’re a special kind of hurt aren’t you.

>>16910898
>implying the master whould lower himself to the level of his studenst

>>16909502
>I think I've accepted the end of our civilization, I just hope Asia will survive to keep humanity going forward.
Humanity going forward is innately a western outlook, when the west's soul dies and reverts to a timeless man so too does this outlook disappear. Only two other high cultures remain alive and will remain alive when the west dies, which are the Japanese and Russian, to which the former is content to remain within its own bounds and the latter which seeks out space (but as opposed to the west not in a vector but in parallel planes.
>>16909694
Love the chert m8 I'll be taking it.
>>16910924
True.
>>16913363
Agreeing with the other anon, no. It is a giant world city and has its destiny entirely linked to Faustian civilization whether they (or we) like it or not.

>>16913831
>It is a giant world city and has its destiny entirely linked to Faustian civilization whether they (or we) like it or no
People like Netanyahu and other Likudniggers believe they are Faustian Civ as well

>>16909448
In my opinion the end of America came when actual Americans who won the revolutionary war became outnumbered by European immigrants.

>>16909650
How could the people possibly forget evolutionary traits ingrained within them for over millenniums? How can people send their kids to daycare and public school, not be bothered to read what they eat and say shit like violence is never an answer? It doesn’t make any sense, the French got pushed a bit too hard and logically chimped out. Same with the Germans after Weimar.

>>16909681
It was many times and those populations became the majority.

>>16909256
Have you read it?

>>16910626
The majority of Christians don’t practice the same Christianity our ancestors practiced.

>>16909256
consoom?

>>16909448
Anything but socialism is the motto, even if it means doing worse than anything the propaganda says the socialist did.

Its different when we do it, no even if the socialist were objectively doing better they are still wrong because capitalism is right.

>>16913819
Maybe you should 'master' how to spell the word 'students' before claiming to be a master on the internet, your oh so humble majesty.

>>16909379
>some not so bad ofc, like Nazi Germany and the spiritual anti-materialist Japanese in ww2
Both Germany and Japan now are culturally worse off for their American influence. Nigger country.

>>16913981
Americans didn't win the war, that was a bunch of rebellious British colonist conned by some smuggles and rich fucks.

The Americans that got displaced by the Europeans were the native Americans - its in the name. Get your history straight.

>>16914151
You can't get "displaced" from "your lands" if you don't even have a concept of property

>>16914151
Are you retarded? They won the war then got outnumbered by foreigners due to mass immigration. These foreigners bought their shitty European culture and didn’t give a fuck about Paul Bunyan or Johnny Appleseed

>>16909335
>material hoarders have won
(((material hoarders)))
>oy vey WE caused it
I agree that's there should be a level of accountability for being asleep at the wheel. However to ignore the role other malicious groups have played is ridiculous. White altruism was the real downfall, and the idea that all groups are willing to suspend their tribal ties. They hate us cuz they ain't us

>>16914209
The current paradigm awards you greatly(materially speaking) if you can figure out a way to enslave others in order to give enjoyment to the masses. Not saying that Jews dindu nuffin, but the system itself is now like it’s own living entity with an insatiable appetite

>>16914244
I agree. I’d remove every last Jew if I could, but it doesn’t change the fact that our system functions in a way that makes Jews thrive. Even if there weren’t Jews, people would still partake in predatory Jewish behavior(maybe tranny/degenerate stuff wouldn’t be pushed, but the slavery would still be the same)

Was he right about Russia?

>>16914244
This, it’s like the Jews created some sort of evil god

>>16914420
Yes? I mean communism isn't a thing in Russia anymore which he knew would be the case.

>>16909256
Yes. Practically everything he predicted is now coming to pass. I don't know how anyone observing the state of the west in 2020 can honestly say we're not in decline.

>>16914244
>if you can figure out a way to enslave others in order to give enjoyment to the masses

What does this mean?

>>16909256
Collapsing upwards like a mushroom cloud. What comes next will only seem bad to those who lived before it.

>>16913831
If Israel is part of the Faustian civilization and not the Magian, I don't see how Russia could not also be Faustian desu.

>>16914742
Onlyfans for instance

>>16909671
So China's culture and worldview have basically been dead the last 1800 years? Explains a lot.

>>16910466
>Mahmud and Akbar consoom, they prodoos, and they see space-time as a series of fields overlaid over top of a 3D grid with a vector moving in it.
Seriously though, they really don't. They're biologically incapable of it, their behaviour proves this.

>>16913345
>If you don't mind my asking, what is your interest/purpose in collecting them?
It's in part because I just like toys. I didn't have any video games or a computer or books growing up but I could afford plenty of toys because of the abundance of quality bootlegs in the 90s. It is in a sense ingrained in me but I don't just buy anything I see on a shelf. I first have to like it and then it has to fit my standards.
Another is that I'm somewhat amused by the different ways different companies engineer these figures to emulate the full range of articulation of a human body, or how many forms they can find to turn a vehicle into a humanoid in transforming figures though that front has been pretty uneventful recently.
Another is that I spent like eight years as a kid playing with them and coming up with stories and stuff and my dumb ass now has the goal of making an stop motion epic as a send off for that phase of my life.

I'm here because /pol/ and /lit/ got me interested in Spengler's ideas some time ago and I was on my way to the writing general.

>Do you collect a certain type of toy, and if so, why?
Nearly exclusively action figures. I'm open to collect anything I think looks cool but right now I'm limited to transformers because it's pretty much all I can find for a good price where I live and believe to be worth my money.

>Have you read the power of Myth by Joseph Campbell? If not, you should. And I mean that sincerely.
Ah... I always tell myself I'm going to read and never get to it. I either end up reading something else or goofing off doing nothing instead. Thanks for the reminder.

>>16914780
First the Megian world outlook by and large is dead. The peoples of the Megian world are by and large nothing more then culture-less peoples who have reverted to their previous state of timelessness. Jews for example choose to orient themselves upon the idea of a nation state for a reason rather then a dispersed consensus which the Megian mind operates on. It is because the Jews have embraced the Faustian world view.
Now onto Russia. Russia is under an intense false form, which has lead Russian Man and Faustian Man to walk the same streets within the State of Russia and other Slavic States. But the Russian people have by and large done away with most Faustian forms since the end of the 90s due to them not being able to understand them. They are too primitive a people to understand our forms which is why today they seem primitive to us. They have a feudal society even if they pretend to adopt our democratic forms, because its a not who they are. They are a much younger culture.

>>16910514
Spengler literally mentions the failing elite birth rates in France as a sign of decline

>>16914824
No, it's ossified. They can make nothing truly "new", but at the same time are basically immune to foreign intrusion. Chinese Communism is a good example: Mao Tse Tung is Qin Shi Huangdi (he literally compared himself to him all the time). Marxist Dialectic is the Dao. [Enter Dear Leader here] Thought is just ren. This isn't to say that they can't change, but rather, they'll just be repeating a pattern with a new coat of paint in response to external stimuli. They're also really aware of this. The Chinese are an incredibly introspective people.

Spengler's Culture-Civilizations can last forever. The only way they "die" (as happened to Sumerian, Mesoamerican, Apollonian, and Egyptian Man) is if another comes in and takes their place. I suppose theoretically they could also dissipate because all of the people who partake in the Culture-Civilization just become felaheen, but none of the culture-civilizations that have died did so according to Spengler for that reason (Magian Man killed Apollonian, and Sumerian Man, Apollonian Man killed Egyptian Man, and Faustian Man killed Mesoamerican Man).

>>16914780
Russia was subjected to Pseudomorphosis under Petrinism. tl;dr Russian Man's leadership tried to smother Russian Man in the crib in favor of Faustian Man because MUH FRANCE MUH FROGS MUH HON HON HON. It didn't work. This is why Russia is only now coming into its own despite not starting much later than Faustian Man did.

>>16909379
>>16909406
If Americans can figure out that globalist capitalism isn't benefitting them, that's a good thing.

>>16910783
>This incredibly well studied, thought out theory has been criticized by a tranny with a webcam, why are you still talking about it???

>>16915002
The human sewage that drips out of cripchan's /christ/ prefixed everything with "bread-" so I assumed that they were Bible thumpers, but your post made me look it up and that's not what I was expecting. Although, given that this is a Spengler thread, that's actually the exact same thing, I just got the flavor wrong.

>>16914870
>Another is that I spent like eight years as a kid playing with them and coming up with stories and stuff and my dumb ass now has the goal of making an stop motion epic as a send off for that phase of my life.
Wholesome, if you ever make it do post it online.

Why do leftoids hate Spengler? Even Adorno praised his work

>>16915056
Because they're Marxist-cultists that sperg out at the suggestion that something besides dialectal materialism could influence human history.

>>16915056
Spengler sort of touches on this. Marxists adhere to Western Exceptionalism and Essentialism, and Spengler takes a big fat shit on that. Faustian Man is just one of several other culture-civilizations. There's no grand arc or narrative to history, there is no "progress".

Marxism is a deeply Faustian ideology, and it's entire cosmology is rooted in Whig history. It just has a few minor quibbles about what happens when the eschaton immanetizes. To put it another way, Marxists agree that Westerners are special, they just think that this is a bad thing. How can they beat themselves up for being White if Whitey isn't special? Whitey can't be evil if he's not special!

>>16911563
No, there's really no guarantee what comes after it would be better, or that anything would form after it, or that the vacuum wouldn't just be filled by another existent civilization. Refer to this chart >>16909694 the alternative civilizations all seem worse than what we have now imo.

>>16915074
Good take
>>16915109
What does marxism have to do with beating yourself up for being white?

>>16910783
Source on any l*ftoid speaking about Spengler? I want to see how bad they get him wrong. But I can't find anything on him from a dissident due to only high IQ people even knowing who he is.

>>16915296
There are a lot of altright retards that namedrop Spengler because of the title of his book and the general decline of culture theme. I actually first heard of him on /pol/ around 2013 long before he became talked about on /lit/

>>16914870
>Another is that I spent like eight years as a kid playing with them and coming up with stories and stuff and my dumb ass now has the goal of making an stop motion epic as a send off for that phase of my life.
This is your way out. It sounds like you'll find fulfillment in doing it, and so I wish you the best of luck.

Playing with toys is how children develop philosophy of mind, this is the primary purpose of toys, and why society at large views playing with toys childish while other past times are not.
I can appreciate the craftsmanship of an action figure if its intricate enough, so I see what you're getting at.

While it's not really on the topic of this thread, I suggest Play and Reality by Winnicott. You're gonna make it, just take it one step at a time. And try to avoid the people who turn the hobby into a pseudo religion.

>>16914655
But is it actually true that Russia is just coming into its own as a high culture and if so, what is its future? I find Spengler’s ideas about Russia really interesting considering the religious movement that’s been occurring there for a while now.

>>16909256
anyone have a full pdf or links to buy an unabridged physical copy?

>>16914956
Please explain Chinese civilization more. You say it’s “ossified” but how can you reconcile that with everything going on politically, economically, technologically with modern China. I feel like China is where Russia was after the Bolsheviks under the USSR so what am I missing?

>>16915446
http://libertygalaxy.com/videos/DeclineOfTheWestSpengler.pdf
Literally first result on a google search.

>>16915468
>http://libertygalaxy.com/videos/DeclineOfTheWestSpengler.pdf
Thanks I'm retarded

>>16915431
From poking around the current Russian cultural landscape I have to say there is not much sign of high culture being born there right now, though maybe it isn't visible to a foreigner. They do build very nice churches though, this is their new military cathedral.

If you go back to turn of the century Russia there was some interesting stuff happening religiously there. Berdyaev, Shestov, Florensky, Lossky, etc. are all very much worth reading. Even in someone as Westernized as Tolstoy you see something of that same approach to Christianity in his essays on it.

>>16915569
In the least, it seems Orthodoxy is growing as a sort of state religion there.

>>16915617
It is interesting that communism didn't manage to stamp it out, while the West just gave up on religion of its own accord. Pic related was in Ukraine but is too good to not post and Ukraine is kind of the same thing as Russia

I’m really interested to know what Spengler’s thoughts on China and Japan were if anyone is well read on him.

>>16915726
eems but a helpless stammering?
There is, however, another Culture that, different as it most fundamentally
is from the Egyptian, yet found a closely-related prime symbol. This is the
Chinese, with its intensely directional principle of the Tao.2
But whereas the
Egyptian treads to the end a way that is prescribed for him with an inexorable
necessity, the Chinaman wanders through his world; consequently, he is conducted to his god or his ancestral tomb not by ravines of stone, between faultless
smooth walls, but by friendly Nature herself. Nowhere else has the landscape
become so genuinely the material of the architecture. “Here, on religious
foundations, there has been developed a grand lawfulness and unity common to
all building, which, combined with the strict maintenance of a north-south
general axis, always holds together gate-buildings, side-buildings, courts and
halls in the same homogeneous plan, and has led finally to so grandiose a planning and such a command over ground and space that one is quite justified in
saying that the artist builds and reckons with the landscape itself.” 3
The
temple is not a self-contained building but a lay-out, in which hills, water,
trees, flowers, and stones in definite forms and dispositions are just as important
as gates, walls, bridges and houses. This Culture is the only one in which the
art of gardening is a grand religious art. There are gardens that are reflections
of particular Buddhist sects.4 It is the architecture of the landscape, and only
that, which explains the architecture of the buildings, with their flat extension
and the emphasis laid on the roof as the really expressive element. And just as
the devious ways through doors, over bridges, round hills and walls lead at last
to the end, so the paintings take the beholder from detail to detail whereas
Egyptian relief masterfully points him in the one set direction. “The whole
picture is not to be taken at once. Sequence in time presupposes a sequence of
space-elements through which the eye is to wander from one to the next.** 1
Whereas the Egyptian architecture dominates the landscape, the Chinese espouses it. But in both cases it is direction in depth that maintains the becoming
of space as a continuously-present experience.
...
In China, in lieu of the awe-inspiring pylon with its massy wall and narrow
entrance, we have the “Spirit-wall” (yin-pi) that conceals the way in. The
Chinaman slips into life and thereafter follows the Tao of life’s path; as the
Nile valley is to the up-and-down landscape of the Hwang Ho, so is the stoneenclosed temple-way to the mazy paths of Chinese garden-architecture.

>>16915801
Sorry about the formatting. He also mentions the Chinese or China in comparison with other civilizations when discussing things quite a lot in the book. a ctrl f shows 150 results for China and 260 for Chinese.

>>16915320
Your right that the main critics of Spengler come from the right (the alt right evolafags). They are midwits and also stupid and get him wrong. Still I have yet to see a l*ftoid even name drop him even if the cringe right does and gets 90% of his ideas wrong.

>>16915431
I would say its entirely true, Russia is currently still going through its spring phase and has just hit its interregnum point (the fall of the USSR) but has yet to cast out its old spring time forms in favor for a more true form of summer. There isn't a lot to be said but there is a ton of potential which will likely be realized when Russia casts out its Faustian false forms.

>>16909589
Except the Visigoths were actually competent, had noble traditions (if somewhat primitive to the Romans) and also a similar IQ to those they overthrew.

>>16909256
It is either the West is collapsing, or the world is collapsing. I tend to believe the latter

>>16909419
Jews are amplifiers, that's to be sure. They can be extremely inventive and creative but they also have the capacity to be extremely degenerative and eager to liquidate assets, culture, and traditions.

>>16913530
This, once the West falls we'll remain in roughly the same state of development for several hundred years perhaps with more sophisticated AI than we have currently. Peak oil also guarantees this

>>16915923
It's just the west. China is still on the rise, and if we collapse they'll fill the void and life will become even worse.

>>16915999
China's birth rate is fucked though, they have some serious problems too

>>16916006
That’s why they’re getting ready to rape africa

>>16915923
The west’s quality of life relys on the world

>>16916032
If anything, it's the reverse of that.

>>16909419
ok what happens if i run on a platform that, explicitly or implicitly, promises to not allow them to it anymore? 'Letting' them do it as a critique makes no sense today, that ship has sailed long ago.

>>16916064
Economically speaking the USA relys heavily on sweat and tears of the yellow people.

>>16916159
That's not a "quality of life" thing. That's an "our elites want to send our jobs overseas so they can hire cheap slave workers and pocket more of the profits for themselves" thing. If anything, it's lowering quality of life.

>>16916190
>But then virtually no one would have a smart phone or access to social me-
On second though, Go On.

You guys always think in extremes. China and India went to shit and they lasted 500 years or so.

>>16909448
>judeo-christian
meme

>>16910466
>All Spengler is concerned about is how people perceive time and space.
Could you expand more on this? Thank you.

>>16916290
*5000

>>16910749
>Proclus style systemic theology
whats the difference between proclus and plotinus

>>16916290
>Implying life in a shithole like either of those countries is worth living in.

>>16910768
>there's also the fact that their god is called "Allah" and ours is named "Yahweh"

Allah was actually the word that Yeshua used when he said the word 'God'. Allah is Aramaic. You are uneducated.

>>16909290
Necessary but not sufficient.

>>16915137
>What does marxism have to do with beating yourself up for being white?
Nothing, but once orthodox Marxism started to lose steam in the West Marxist activists compromised with other political advocacy groups and invited in feminists, queers, greens and nigs, thereby creating the 'rainbow coalition.' It didn't save them though. Now the post-Marxist current has dispensed with almost all Marxism except the most basic and most politically useful elements. That's why "identity politics" is the primary mode of expression in the "Left."

>>16910768
Islam is absolutely abrahamic, in fact even Jews recognize that Allah is the god of Abraham (and talmudic laws doesn't forbid Jews from praying in mosques, while their forbid praying in churches).

>>16914956
who is the egyptian man

>>16910412
No, the west is not doing a good job absorbing the Magians.
t. pastanigger

>>16910924
Who gives a fuck?

>>16909368
It's declining because of both anon

>>16909256
The west is falling because it's too degenerate. Look at Greece, Rome, and Egypt

>>16909694
>niggity nogs and beaners can't be Faustian Men.
But genetics do.

>>16911010
There are no true history books outside the West. If someone is writing a history book, they are Faustian

>>16916644
Degenerate by definition means something like declining. Saying something is declining because it's degenerate is like saying water is wet because it's also moist.

>>16909256
I am apparently the first in this thread to make this statement, but the West according to Spengler isnt failing right now, but going through a temporary crisis that will lead to a universal empire.

People are reading pessimism into Spengler which isnt there.

>>16916734
200 years of Caesarism.

>>16916734
The people in this thread that are pessimistic are so not because of the fact that we will expand but because we are internally empty. That said I myself mostly see it as something that must be done, so why be sad about it? Things change why be sad or pessimistic about it, instead look bravely towards what one can do with what creativity remains in the culture.

>>16909256
Didn't he write this with the assumption that Germany was going to win the war?

>>16917130
First World War, yes. He expected Germany to loose the second.

>>16909256
What happened to magian/magic culture? Does it still exist, is it ossified, us it dead?

>>16917499
>He expected Germany to loose the second.

Did he explain why?

>>16909256>>16909448
>>16909694

Can anyone compare the ideas expressed in 'the decline of the west' to those that are expressed in 'the worker' by Junger?

Oh wow, another Spengler thread with just ONE (1) single anon who has actually studied him.
Gets me everytime

>>16909256
forgive English....i prefer Jrpg for stories.....but on Wrpg just gameplay(some story are just need to be fixed...too mature,more 18+ scene and too much serious business....western joke its really boring or feel like watching a tv series and shooters and mcdonalds make me bored)

>>16917652
>i prefer Jrpg for stories
yikes

>>16914145
I'm not pro-materialist but their ideology had them sitting on old ships expecting will to bring them the rest of the way. It got them far in Pearl Harbor but that wasn't enough. From a purely militarily and cultural standpoint it was bad. Germany had its own issues to with paranoia and inane war with "Jewish physics". The framing was so terrible they couldn't even start to supplant it.

>>16914984
I don't think they can until something better comes along, domestic or Sinic.

>>16917673
Jrpg is pro-story in aesthetics while western liberalism creates a create-your-own-path type of story. Wrpg tries to sacrifice story for freedom.

To the one poster in this thread who has actually read 'The decline of the west', I would recommend reading copse 125 by Junger.

And I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it

Anons....

Is it true that you really cannot study Spengler without having heaps of reading beforehand?

I wanna jump in but I don't have nearly enough under my belt from what I have heard you need to have read.

Spengler's greatest mistake was naming it Decline of the West, rather than the title he originally wanted.

>>16916651
Then the individual is too low IQ to partake in the culture-civilization. Low IQ Whites can't partake in Faustianness, for example. Perhaps Abos are just simply too dumb to partake in culture-civilizations, but that rare 90 IQ Abo can. By simple fact of what a culture-civilization is, there is no genetic or cultural component (for someone who is intelligent enough to partake in one).

>>16916581
Ancient Egyptians pre-Hellenistic period.

>>16915636
The West hasn't given up it's religion, what do you think Social Justice is? Social Justice is just Christianity distilled to what Faustian Man wants out of it. The St. Floyd riots are a perfect example of what was mentioned in >>16914956 about culture-civilizations repeating their own patterns. What is the ultimate symbol of holiness and righteousness? Martyrdom.

>>16917902
Just be ready to constantly be looking things up. The man was far more well read than you or I could ever hope to be.

>>16918012
Yeah that was my worry. Someone kindly made me a list of stuff to read but it was 20 odd titles long and full of Plato and Hume and Kant and, to be honest, it was mind boggling. I would rather jump straight in.

>>16916581
Triangle Man

/his/ here
What is my place in this?

>>16910412
>The West is very good at absorbing these people
Nope
t. non-pseud

>>16911010
hey wasn't there a book about me?
can you guys tell me more about this change in culture after wwI?
I've seen it mentioned a lot but I don't know why is it such a before and after

>>16917556
Hey man. Some of us haven’t read him but are interested in his ideas. So we’re asking questions.

>>16910749
Anon, I think that’s really reductive and not that accurate.

>>16910626
Muslims don’t even regard most Christians as monotheistic and Christians regard Muslims as heretics with incoherent theology. Jesus was the last in Christian theology and it can’t be any other way.

So wait. Some anon mentioned above that Japanese and Russian are the only two high cultures (or to be high cultures remaining) but wouldn’t Japan be an extension of what Spengler considered Chinese culture? Russia obviously remains to be seen.

>>16918325
book about this*

>>16918359
Japan is Chinese Man, yes. Anon might be referring to Toynbee's theories, which elaborate on Spengler's ideas such that Japan can tl;dr be called a specific historical form of Chinese Man.

>>16918343
Those who ask questions aren't the cancer that makes me laugh. It's those who directly jump on the "decline"-waggon without understanding what Spengler's "morphology" tries to describe. Those who spout their bullshit about "muh western values" instead of the "faustian soul" and its "Ursymbol", etc.

But Spengler-anon (>>16909694) is one hell of a patient motherfucker.

>>16916734
>the West according to Spengler isnt failing right now, but going through a temporary crisis that will lead to a universal empire
How's this going to happen? By "universal empire" does that just mean that soulless neoliberal commercialism will dominate the entire planet? Because that's really as pessimistic as I can imagine.

>>16909256
The collapse already happened
>>16909335
hello rabbi

>>16918165
Documenting our collapse for the next civilization to learn from.

>>16918596
>soulless neoliberal commercialism will dominate the entire planet
Pretty much. But with a few "charismatic leaders" as "caesars" and enough social institutions.
It's actually already here

>>16918596
Not him; Toynbee elaborates on this, but tl;dr yes. Every culture-civilization ends in a final form where it is perfectly abstracted from the conditions that gave rise to it. This occurs when some conflict between two classes of society (in China, the meritocratic scholar-bureaucrats vs the hereditary military nobility; in Rome, the plebs vs the patricians) becomes completely and totally insurmountable at an existential level. In the West, this is looking more and more like Blue State vs Red State (this is NOT restricted to America, you can be "Red State" in Germany, and "Blue State" in Britain). Then Caesar comes along and cuts the gordian knot by putting all power in himself AS A PERSON, not as a role. This is why the state can be universal, because it turns all social relations into a chain going to Caesar AS A PERSON. In Rome, this was Augustus, in China, it was Qin Shi Huangdi.

Caesar synthesizes the old and the new, fulfilling the "mandate" of his culture-civilization by doing so. To put this in terms for the West, Caesar ends the separation of Church and State thereby allowing everyone to pray to Jesus that Geoge Floyd might be declared a saint, Goldman Sachs will get favorable lobbying conditions, and that the Church will be allowed to bring in an additional ten million Somalis to Maine per year as these men will surely become great and noble Scientists.

Because of the nature of Faustian Man, however, this process will be global and all encompassing.

>>16918729
>>16918759
Depressing as fuck. If that's all we can look forward to I'd rather the west just die now.

>>16909540
Who do you think makes them stupid in the 1st place?

>>16918635
Won't make any difference, just look to the Romans

>>16918938
There's always a proletarian class of lower iq people in every society.

>>16918165
Move to China or be like the soldiers at Pompeii who chose to die rather than leave their posts.

>>16918469
Ah okay. I’m really interested in what Spengler thought about India, China, and Japan specifically. I thought maybe it was simple but it sounds complex so I just have to read him more.

>>16918759
It sounds like the first two you mentioned are more like a class or even caste conflict but I fail to see how the third one is. Seems unlikely that it would be the only one not along those lines, no? Also, can Western civilization in totality really be categorized as red vs blue? I don’t think so honestly.

>>16909256
Yes

>>16910412
>good at absorbing
Most Muslims in Europe just stick to what they know, which is sticking to middle-eastern and Islamic values, but I wouldn't call them pious. They are ethnically loyal, and if they gain power they secure resources for their in-group. They really aren't a threat to Faustian culture, which is seeing the world as a infinite space, they wouldn't even know how to surplant the the culture. But there is problems with their assimilation into the gray masses, since Magian world-cave is quite resistant to it.

>>16909256
Yes

>>16915127
I think that is why we should retain good ideas. The fight here is maintaining knowledge and casting those pearls

>>16919018
The conflict isn't really totalizing, or even related to the actual culture-civilization. There's no reason that the Chinese conflict had to be scholar-bureaucrats vs warrior-nobility, it could have been rural vs urban. It's just a mass social conflict that is existentially unsolveable. Blue Staters MUST destroy Red Staters. Their entire existence is predicted on correcting the behavior of others, their reason to be is to change how others are, they cease to exist the moment they stop. Red Staters want to be left alone. If either gets what they want, the other ceases to exist. Likewise, if the scholar-bureaucrats got what they wanted, the hereditary nobility would be exterminated (and vice versa).

The conflict itself is largely irrelevant precisely because it is made irrelevant by Caesar. Caesar uses it as a means of attaining power, but after he's got it, the conflict ends precisely because he makes it end. The existence of the conflict is where Caesar comes from (Caesar came from Rome as opposed to Greece; Qin Shi Huangdi came from China as opposed to Japan), but again, it's only incidental.

>>16918872
This is why Spengler says that optimism is cowardice.

>>16909256
Has there been any start of a new culture since 1300s? It seems a bit odd that no new culture would emerge in 700 years.

>>16918759
AOC is our new Caesar.

>>16919121
Mesoamerican Man and Russian Man.

One could argue that this is in part stifled by Faustian Man's universal nature, filling in all space and getting everyone on the Right Side of History (thereby either making them Faustian or smothering any attempts at a new culture-civilization).

>>16909256
I'm going to be so happy when China subordinates and eventually destroys us. I hate all of my fellow Americans, especially my family, and wish atrocities upon each and every one of them, they are all godless idiots and sodomites. Only an idiot asks if things are really heading to collapse, when everything around you is negligent, self-interested, and unsustainable.

>>16919166
One of the most based posts iv seen all day

>>16919018
The real conflict in the West today is definitely not left vs right or even blue vs red, it is, form Europe to NA, of soverignists and globalists. Could still be interpreted as class conflict as globalists hold all the capital and power and soverignists do not. It's diffuclt to say which way this will turn out. People seem to be siding with soverignists at an increasing rate as media loses power but the soverignists really have no alternative to offer. The current conflict is just globalists wanting to control you as cattle globally while ushering in a new ponzi economy based on green energy, technology and surveillance and some pointless shit like UBI to make you convinced this is good vs the soverignists saying "no". But the latter have no plan beyond that. And in fact it seems it is still at this point impossible to even come up with a fact, what are we going to go back to being small balkanized monarchies? There is no viable alternative. Only an Emperor like figure who will be able to synthesize these two currents of global control and sovereign aesthetics with a degree of subsidiarity could possibly emerge.

>>16919151
>Mesoamerican Man
that doesn't seem like a culture but a weird hybrid raped by colonization

>>16919151
>Russian Man
has roots before 13th century

>>16909335
>fellow whites, we did this :^)
when we win you'll have no place to run away to, we will erase every record of your people, it will be a crime to even remember your name

>>16919202
Faustian man killed Mesoamerican man while it was in the crib.

>>16919187
>Only an Emperor like figure who will be able to synthesize these two currents of global control and sovereign aesthetics with a degree of subsidiarity could possibly emerge.

This would be very depressing of course, probably late stage Rome or Late Hellenized Greece type of depressing, but I've found that the option that seems most terrifying and depressing is the one that usually happens.

>>16909368
found the hegelian

>>16919187
>at an increasing rate as media loses power
The media are more powerful than ever though, they are deciding the election as we speak. Facebook algorithms literally choose people's moods and thoughts for them. Even this website is inundated with bots and ideological automaton-shills who create 'context' that is inescapable and 'designed' for you. It's sort of how you can't look at a sign without reading it. We are living in a fucking Kojima game, unironically.

The entire notion of a Caesar is dated. America and the EU will devolve into failed Oligarchy states not unlike Russia, where everything is in decay but there are pockets of enormous wealth and power that are as idle as they are decadent.

>>16919187
>Emperor like figure who will be able to synthesize these two currents of global control and sovereign aesthetics with a degree of subsidiarity
What would this look like? Ceasar? Hitler? Trump? What sort of ideology would the synthesis follow?

>>16919221
that doesn't seem realistic. aztecs were in a decline when europeans came. there simply never was a mesoamerican man to begin with. there could have been one if the aztecs declined on their own and there was no european discovery of americas

THE NEW CAESAR WHO CREATES SYNTHESIS AND WILL END THE CONFLICT IS A.I. AFTER THE SINGULARITY

No need to thank me :)

>>16919187
>There is no viable alternative. Only an Emperor like figure who will be able to synthesize these two currents of global control and sovereign aesthetics with a degree of subsidiarity could possibly emerge.
Only idiots quote Spengler as some absolute, when he lived almost 100 years ago. He didn't even see the end of WW2 or learn of the atom bomb. The world will restart in nuclear hellfire, look forward to it.

>>16917556
>not yet developed
lmao

>>16909419
the jews are one of the causes for the decline, but it is only our fault; cause we let them and we let all of those other causes to do as they pleased

>>16919243
It's Mesoamerican Man, not Aztec Man. The entirety of Mesoamerica is included in this. The Aztecs were just the political entity that put up most of a fight against the Spanish purely out of coincidence of where the Spanish landed.

Secondly, there is, again, nothing in Spengler about "decline". There is no decline, because the culture-civilizations never go away. They age into stasis, or they're killed, but they don't die of senescence. They can continue to exist forever.

>>16919313
>restart in nuclear hellfire

Genuine question /lit/:
What's the world going to look like in 100 years? What's the death blow going to look like?

I personally think we're all going to be killed in a nuclear inferno (or the after affects) and quite fail to see how any kind of civilisational level restart is possible.

>>16919237
There is a growing rupture in that propaganda is becoming ever more aggressive but that people, partially even for the same reason, believe it less and less. For example there was a poll that showed Twitter putting disputed election fraud notifications on Trump tweets actually increased the amount of people who believed the election was rigged.

>>16919240
Nobody knows. I can only speculate that the ideology would be something that would superficially and mostly aesthetically please all sides while controlling the power under one source. This means that some kind of return of political aesthetics of sovereignty would have to be granted to the soverignists. I'd imagine whoever would take the function of Emperor would have to often be seen, address, and visit literally pointless countries to make it seem as if they matter and that he is their emperor. Probably set up some aesthetical positions for those countries to report to him. But with a real possibility that some of these local leaders could grow close to him and thus wield bigger power in the empire for the benefit of the region/country he comes from. Imagine for a moment that the Emperor is at this point American and that his most important official is from some literal who country like Slovakia and that the Emperor for this reason benefits Slovakia in some ways as a privilege, because his main man has his ear. This would effectively make world politics a sort of interesting scheming personal type of thing rather than the impersonal, boring, flat, globohomo capitalist thing we see today that appeals to nobody. It would also mean that meme countries could produce "great people" who are of incredible service to the Emperor based on their ability and service and in return these people could confer bigger benefits these countries would get than in an impersonal global-capitalist version. So I think the main point would be a transition from an impersonal capitalist process of globalization to a personal "dynastic" (or at least with intrigues of dynastic rule) global empire. Of course I imagine this empire would only be as strict about enforcing any sort of values as to perpetuate its own rule, but I imagine it would not appeal too much to traditions as sovereignists today imagine, it would allow you to do everything you want as long as you don't disrupt the Empire's authority or order.

>>16919166
>>16919172
Yes, except that I do love my family.

>>16919313
I'm not quoting Spengler you retard

>>16919350
That's also based

>>16919291
This. No human being could be the "faustian caesar" - the scale of power and needed personality is way too big

>>16919243
>aztecs were in a decline when europeans came
read an actual history book m8

>>16919291
Yeah, things either implode first or it is that

>>16917826
why

>>16917943
What is the egyptian man like?

>>16915037
Is it fine if I post it here? I mean, it would be off-topic as hell and self-promotion was banned on four chins from what I remember.

>>16915324
>Playing with toys is how children develop philosophy of mind, this is the primary purpose of toys, and why society at large views playing with toys childish while other past times are not.
Was it always like this or is there an interest in making things this way?

>I can appreciate the craftsmanship of an action figure if its intricate enough, so I see what you're getting at.
Yeah. I know that it's in a sense wasteful but it's also in the group of things that makes life worth living. That's why I'm nonetheless wary of the hobby at points.

>While it's not really on the topic of this thread, I suggest Play and Reality by Winnicott. You're gonna make it, just take it one step at a time. And try to avoid the people who turn the hobby into a pseudo religion.
Thanks for the recommendation. I wanted to have a meta, knowing-the-man-behind-the-machine chapter but I had no idea where to take it so I was skimming Hinduism for the concept of Lila but not much more.

I wanted to ask, though, where do you guys started reading all of this stuff? I want to learn about all of this but it just seems overwhelming. I have no clue for where to start.

One of the best threads on here in recent times

>>16918051
what does that mean

>>16918633
fake tweet.

>>16920417
The egyptian man was well know for his triangles and other related shapes

>>16920430
No fucking shit, you dumb cunt

>>16920436
come on man

>>16914956
>are basically immune to foreign intrusion. Chinese Communism is a good example

Is Dark Souls II Spenglerian?

>>16919202
>that doesn't seem like a culture but a weird hybrid raped by colonization
>>16919221
>Faustian man killed Mesoamerican man while it was in the crib.

Mesoamerican man is alive and well. Mexico, along with Guatemala and some other central american states exists in a particular condition entirely unlike the rest of latin america (except perhaps Bolivia).

This is Darcy Ribeiro's map of the americas. In blue are "transplanted peoples", places where the culture and temperament of the society is a result of transplanted european peoples.

in red are hybrid societies ("new peoples"), but the point i want to make is about the countries marked in yellow, so-called "testimony peoples", countries wherein the greater part of society has inherited the societal temperament of the original indigenous culture.

mexico is south africa. you have a transplanted upper class (remember: this isn't a question of genetics, it is a cultural-temperament issue) and a hybrid urban middle class. but the overwhelming portion of the lower class, which isn't strictly urban, remains overwhelmingly tied to the temperament of the mesoamerican man.

if you spend any time in rural mexico, it's clear as day. hybrid mexican culture (as can be seen in the north of the country) is extroverted, for instance, whereas the mesoamerican temperament is suspicious and introverted.

it is suppressed but the culture continues existing in an ossified state.

t. spent a lot of time in mexico, guatemala and south america.

>>16914956
>They can make nothing truly "new", but at the same time are basically immune to foreign intrusion.
Uh... what about Constantine?

>>16909256
Yes.

We are in clown world now.

>>16921132
Are you a 'gringo'? If so, how were you treated

>>16921432
"gringo", in practical terms, is any white foreigner who doesn't speak spanish (spaniards, for instance, are not gringos). i am french, though i grew up in south america, so i was not immediately a "gringo" (because i speak spanish natively), though I am white.

the mesoamerican temperament is kind and respectful though like i said, it is very suspicious, and this suspicion manifests in constant misunderstandings (they nod along though it is clear they haven't understood what's going on) and an elevated starting price in every negotiation.

like any long-standing ethnic society, you will never be truly absorbed into the fold, you'll always be an outsider.

this is, of course, in contrast to hybrid "new peoples", in which the temperament, while not exactly european, is reminiscent of a latin european temperament and thusly is somewhat familiar with it to the degree that you are not inherently an outsider with a profoundly different worldview.

this is somewhere spengler hit the nail on the head. the faustian man does indeed perceive time as an upward motion occupying an infinite space, and this manifests itself in the belief that society is gradually (whether quickly or slowly is another question) moving "forwards" towards a utopian future. this faustian perspective is visible in argentina and uruguay and their particular malaise, two countries with profoundly european outlooks (not a joke, and again–not a question of genetics) that feel abandoned, tied to a struggle with the local mentality, that makes them feel like their progression is infinitesimally slow. frontiersmen that were once filled with the hope of the man that settles a homestead instead realizing that the future will come only too slowly.

the mesoamerican man (the indigenous mexican and guatemalan temperament) absolutely does not share this perspective and behaves thusly. they do not believe the future is necessarily going anywhere, and instead maintain a sense of cyclical destruction-rebirth (the decay and fertilization–a decomposing body in the jungle).

i'll put it this way: the mesoamerican litters far more than the faustian because they lack the inherent notion that plastic won't decompose in the dirt.

tl;dnr: i am seen, at best, as a kind outsider (curiously enough, mexicans of a hybrid or transplanted culture experience this as well–some of them even desperately attempt to re-root themselves in mexican mysticism through the practice of "ancestral medicines", the ultimate LARP of those stranded in a desert island culture) and at worst as a thoughtless gringo to be ripped off.

this isn't the case in say Chile, where the overwhelming temperament isn't so distant to the latin european one.

>>16921531
Pls create a new one when this thread dies so there can be more discussion

>>16921531
Chile seems to have large amounts of European influence in its culture and society, the same with Brazil.

What do you see in the recent mass migrations to Europe from the 3rd world? A future that looks similar to that of S. America?

>>16915455
After ossification many things still 'happen' in the society but it is historyless, and upon encountering other forms has merely repeated them in its own way (anons discuss Maoism=Quin Hi or w/e ITT).
No new art movements, ways of seeing the world or philosophy will come out of China in its state, but it still may compete for land and resources with other felaheen or neighboring civilizations. It will invent technology (mostly in fields started by other High Cultures), compete economically and politically, just like India. From a cultural (or Kultural) perspective it's been the same for millennia.
That's my take at least, I'm not the anon you asked.

>>16916159
Nah the anon you're replying to is correct. The benefactors of outsourcing manufacturing is not the average American but those at the very top. Lower-tier Americans are either part of dwindling middle class with rising house costs or lower class with suppressed wages and worse job conditions/options.
America is not just independent but actually running a surplus in food and energy, aka the things that really matter in modern society. If America fell Africans would not have Iphones like they do today. Much of tech industry is still American, if not its either Europe or Japan, China is building one though. If the west fell most of the world loses its ability to keep producing and using many modern comforts, west does too but unlike the third world it can sustain its own population and civilization.

>>16916401
stricter theology vs materialism
t. someone who has not read either
take my take with a grain of salt

>>16916701
thanks for this post too many entry level anons who 'get' that things are going bad but still struggle to expand on that further, end up making circular statements because the specifics of what's going on is escaping them (for now at least)

>>16921613
>Chile seems to have large amounts of European influence in its culture and society, the same with Brazil.
both are typical "new peoples", the overwhelming temperament is new, yet familiar to europeans. in both countries there are also pockets of transplanted peoples' temperament and the temperament of indigenous and african peoples in chile and brazil respectively.

>What do you see in the recent mass migrations to Europe from the 3rd world? A future that looks similar to that of S. America?
nowhere on the scale exchange between europe, africa, and the americas. i don't know, but i remain cautiously optimistic–the only other option is /pol/tier doom-and-gloom where i have to LARP for EVROPA.

the greatest trouble right now is working class resentment in Europe, which was inevitable. though whether immigration reduces salaries substantially is yet to be demonstrated, the fact is that a lower reservoir of labour would at least give better collective-bargaining opportunities to locals.

take refugees. you either let them work, in which case you open yourself to populist critique ("they took our jobs") or you (as is currently done in europe) do NOT let them work, in which case you as the state are responsible for their livelihood and welfare–wherein you open yourself again to populist critique ("and we're paying for them!"), which should reveal the ultimate goal of that particular political crowd: no newcomers.

i feel like immigration is neither inherently a positive nor a negative, i do believe that precipitous immigration has destabilizing potential (in that it creates ghettos of foreigners who have not been culturally assimilated).

however, the west (and its populist arm) can't have it both ways: it cannot actively hinder the development of the third world (a ploy to maintain low-labour costs in manufacturing and in the production of raw materials) while at the same time barring immigration from these places effectively (the economic pressure is simply too strong).

if shit hits the fan and a mass one-billion-strong of climate refugees forms at the borders of europe, it will be politically impossible to block the passage of at least a number of these people (to do so, european civilians will have to be in favour of having the army kill tremendous amounts of refugees as they attempt to enter fortress europe–i don't think this is a political possibility as it stands, nor do i think this would be a good idea).

in reality, the west's best hope is to develop the 3rd world to the degree where the economic pressure is surpassed by people's natural reluctance to immigrate. i don't know what this would look like, but if people are so concerned about europe staying european, so to speak, this is the only way i can realistically (because, like i said, i don't think the development of a fascist european army violently repelling a billion climate refugees is a realistic political scenario) envision the project.

>>16918042
could you post the list. I'm already interested in most of that stuff and curious if I will naturally hit most of the points along my reading journey, also to see which ones I have no current plans to read that are helpful/necessary.

Also if any other anons want to jump in and supply a list I would be very grateful!

>>16921894
Wouldn't developing the third world just worsen the problem of climate change? And considering these countries have been and will always be the most vulnerable to it, I don't see how this whole thing doesn't end with 1 billion climate refugees at the gates of EVROPA

>>16919315
Arguably it's the military church so the pic is not entirely accurate. But yeah made me lol when I first saw it too, especially with pictures of huts, should just put a 404 error screencap there

>>16921947
>Wouldn't developing the third world just worsen the problem of climate change?
that is, at least on paper, a problem is the paris agreement hopes to tackle: developed nations cut their emissions heavily so as to off-set the inevitable new emissions of countries as they develop.

this is, of course, a difficult political pill to swallow in the developed world and requires as-of-yet unprecedented cooperation from the developing world.

the good news is that so-far it at least seems like population growth decreases more sharply than was previously anticipated (populations in latin america mostly do not grow, for instance. the only region of the earth that still grows quickly is central africa).

the hope is that more-ecological technologies that didn't exist in the 20th century will allow for the developing world to develop at only a partial cost in terms of emissions.

additionally, the problem isn't merely economic. salvadorans didnt start heading for the US because their economy was in taters, they did it when their country became too dangerous to live in.

instability and violence can be reversed (easier said than done, i know) without the new emissions industrialization implies.

african nations with the lowest rates of emigration aren't necessarily the "richest", they are those with the least instability and violence. like i said, work with people's natural reluctance to immigrate.