/lit/ - Literature

>>16899020
Yes. The only problem is that he thinks it's a bad thing.

>>16899020

im not sure that's uniquely american but sure why not

>>16899020
If he was a little more manly he'd have had the guts to finish 'the king needs a tan' instead of offing himself with it half done.

>>16899027
Of course it's a bad thing. Real learning comes when the competitive spirit has ceased.

I’m obsessed with my income and career and it has nothing to do with feeling manly

>>16899054

Maybe it was associated with manliness in the 90s, but now we're competing with women in the work force and academia.

DFW always comes with the most banal normie takes

>>16899123
dfw doesn't come with anything my nigga dfw is d e a d

>>16899020

>>16899020
It was right, until it wasn't. As most things tend to be.

>>16899045
faggot

>>16899020
yep, right. you goys let your moms decide what is real man, and moms want children to cope. now you have it.

>>16899526
Tranny

It's everywhere now tho, even in my country

>>16899045
>The constant competition for existence compels all organisms and species to strive to outlive others and successfully leave offspring for the survival of the species.

>>16899020
What a childish take

>>16899020
What a retard. Why does he think men behave that way? Answer: because women like men that behave that way.
This guy actually thought of basic sexual selection patterns as a vast nation-wide conspiracy where the gubmint brainwashes men to be manly.

>>16899611
>Calling someone a tranny for embracing their masculine competitive spirit.
Tranny faggot.

>>16899020
No because that's universal, not American. That mindset describes the social expectations of male behavior in Russia, Nigeria, Australia, anywhere.

>>16899832

What is the experience of such "success"?

>>16899027
fpbp

>>16899832
Ah yes, the appeal to nature. Even engaging directly with your logic, holes and exceptions immediately arise. The most obvious one is eusociality in ants. While different colonies may compete, the individual colony categorically cannot survive without cooperation. Cooperation is such a powerful tool that ant species can be found on every continent save Antarctica. To bring it back to human beings, while we're definitely not eusocial, we too have been built to cooperate. Human women take nine whole months to produce offspring, and for the latter half they are functionally useless in an evolutionary context. They need to be protected, fed, sheltered from the elements until they give birth, and then the baby is completely dependent for at least 12 years. Our ancestors literally could not survive without cooperation, and intra-species competition is implicitly an existential threat.

Hahahaha we're so fucked lads
No one wants our skills
No one wants us to be sad
No one wants us to talk
The act of socialising has become weird and treacherous
The pace of life has been set by men who can afford cocaine
Everything is monetised
Everyone is so bugman brainwashed that the act of struggling against this cruel enlightenment is seen as the most obscene act of nihilism possible
The world no longer values our suffering and new men are not being born without the innate drive to suffer- our sons will have it far worse

>>16901154
t. burger

>>16901256
So that definitively refutes the idea that all individuals within a species must compete with each other. How about inter-species relationships? Do all species need to compete with one another? No, that isn't true either. Some do, absolutely, but not all. Just one word for this one: symbiosis. It follows that because not all members of all species need to compete with one another and that not all species need to compete with other species, the argument that humans must compete with another is not adequately supported by any real evidence in nature.

>>16899156
Yikes that looks like an actual demon

>>16901256
>>16901288
Evidence of inter- and intra-species cooperation is not a refutation of competition. Grow up already. Competition and cooperation are not opposed - and we need both to survive.

>no other cultures value masculinity like that

It's called human nature, not American values

>>16901557
>>16901288

ingroup cooperation and outgroup competition. read Arthur Keith

>>16901028
he was a creepy stalker with a restrain order, what did you expect

>>16899020
>competitiveness instead of concert, winning at all costs, dominating others through intelligence or will, being strong, not showing your true emotions, depending on others seeing you as a real man in order to reassure yourself of your manhood, seeing your own value solely in terms of accomplishments, being obsessed with your career or income, feeling as if you were constantly being judged or on display, etc.
I guess I would ask how did he come to the conclusion that those are the masculine values that "America" teaches to men?
Before asking why he thinks those things are bad I want to be sure he isn't pulling shit out his ass as I'm sure alot of progressives and sociologists have done. I have no idea how people came to think "not showing your "true emotions"" is something that men do or something that is considered traditionally masculine.

>>16902728
>I have no idea how people came to think "not showing your "true emotions"" is something that men do or something that is considered traditionally masculine
It's a very obvious part of our culture. Boys are punished for showing emotion or anything resembling weakness, men often complain of not having "real friendships."

>>16901258
"The pace of life has been set by men who can afford cocaine" is a good line desu, along the lines of "I saw the best minds of my generation...". Ever written poetry?

>>16902748
>It's a very obvious part of our culture.
Apperantly not. It's just a poor assumption
>Boys are punished for showing emotion or anything resembling weakness
You have no meaningful proof of this. I guess you propably don't have any male friends or converse with men but I can tell you that is pure bullshit.
>men often complain of not having "real friendships."
Do they? Since when? It just feels like you're buying into some myth formulated by people who don't acctually converse with the people they talk about in a casual manner. People are who they are

>>16901256
>ants
Literal bugman argument.
>women need to be protected.
No shit. Males compete with males. How do you think mate selection works?

>>16902807
You have no "meaningful proof" either dude, all you've said is that I'm wrong and don't talk to men, which is fucking retarded. I see it all the time, especially online, men talk about how isolated they feel and all that shit. "People are who they are," but they are also made who they are.

>>16901256
Nigger competition does not mean murdering women when another man impregnates them.

>>16901934
>Arthur Keith
>In 1899 he married Cecilia Caroline Gray (d.1934). They had no children.

>>16899020
No, nothing uniquely American about all of this.

>>16901256
Offtopic, but I recently got an ant farm on a whim and the thing that struck me the most is how *smart* these creatures are. Like, not quite dog-smart, at least cat-level smart. Which is strange because ants, well, don't really have any brains.

Clearly scientists don't really understand this whole "intelligence" thing.

>>16902848
I'm not the one making baseless claims. Don't conflate a handful of people on the internet with society as a whole. Isolation is not a new thing for humans and I'm sure an equal amount of girls feel the same way(maybe they just don't show it!)

>>16899123
>>16900460
>>16901028
>>16901154
>>16901571
>>16902728
Brainlets, american men are the only ones that i've seen that are constantly obsessed with: dominance, sex and money, and the internet has revealed all those traits clearly. incels, lookism, the concept of "beta" and "alpha" males all come from americans, americans men are the only ones that are constantly judging each other for their height, dick size, how much money they make, how many girls they fuck and so on, and i can see that such views are being exported by the internet to other countries too.

>>16903076
I think you just mean incels. No country has a single monoculture

>>16899020
Men who can't successfully compete always try to tear down the competition. He's also attacking a very narrow view of what being a man is in the American mind. I don't think and coalminers, farmers, hunters, construction workers, soldiers, railroadworkers, etc. would agree that this is the definition what manhood is.

>>16899832
yes americans are animals what's your point

>>16902907
>I'm not the one making baseless claims. Don't conflate a handful of people on the internet with society as a whole.
Nice backpedal from "You don't have friends" to "You don't know every person in society's civilization".
>Isolation is not a new thing for humans
Sophist argument, the effect does not exist in a vacuum away from the cause.
>and I'm sure an equal amount of girls feel the same way(maybe they just don't show it!)
Go shove it up your faggot Redditor ass.

>>16903363
Interpret my post however you like. It doesn't make your claims real. Also, I explicitly said I was guessing about your lack of male friends, in a sarcastic way but Poe's Law I guess.

>>16902887
They leave chemical signals everywhere. If you think of each ant as a neuron, you can see the colony for the brain it is. The path ants travel is littered with coded information invisible to us but which the ant can smell commands from.

>>16901199
pain

>>16899020
No. This kind of person essentially lives in backwards land, where all their analysis finds real problems and analyzes them completely backwards
>competitiveness instead of concert, winning at all costs
This happens because we've constructed a meritocratic society where those at the bottom are viewed as valueless illiterate peons worthy of nothing. It's therefore necessary, as a man, to succeed in order to prove your value. This view exists because it's necessary to success in the society we built, not because of brainwashing.
>dominating others through intelligence or will, being strong
These are necessary in competitive societies because one has to maintain their position through power. It's a necessary extrapolation of the first point, not an unrelated equivalent segment.
>Not showing your true emotions
This is because sobbing and crying do not solve problems. It has been recognized for millennia that emotional outbursts of anger and sadness in reaction to negative phenomena are unmasculine because they do not deal with the real issue. This isn't because of vulnerability, it's the emphasis on men behaving rationally instead of emotionally.
>depending on others seeing you as a real man in order to reassure yourself of your manhood
What a retarded statement. External confirmation of the internal is a standard mechanism for determining if you're doing something right. It's very rare that someone in disagreement with the majority within the relevant sector is correct about something, it usually signals the beginning of a profound societal shift. It's not impossible, it's just valid to say "Everyone says I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong", and it requires enormous energy to maintain the position that you're right despite constant disagreement on all sides.
>seeing your own value solely in terms of accomplishments
In 100 years I'll be dead and gone. I realize he's referring to material accomplishments, but the reality is that if I don't accomplish anything of significance in my life, then I will not be remembered. If I'm a centerpiece of my community, raise a family, do something significant for my line, I will probably be remembered. This is just reality.
>being obsessed with your career or income, feeling as if you were constantly being judged or on display.
Material access to resources is a key part of protecting one's own family, and in the civilization we've built career and income are how that is performed. We feel judged and on display because we are being judged and are on display. Throughout all cultures, for all time men have been subject to some external judgement. God, women, bosses, all these people are judging us and making decisions related to our conduct.

All this analysis is backwards because he's seeing the real problem of men being raised not knowing how to live in the civilization we've constructed and says "Well we should completely rebuild our civilization so men (and women) never have to change".

ITT: am*ricans

>>16901258
Good shit anon

>>16903845
Don't get me wrong, neoliberalism is a fucking shitshow, but saying "Society bad because teach men 'work hard, be strong' and that bad" is an utterly retarded opinion. You're supposed to be strong, you're supposed to work hard. You're supposed to want to be successful. There are ways to be successful that aren't "work a menial office job for 45 hours a week then die at 70", which is where neoliberalism fails.

>>16901258
Damn, beautifully written blackpill

>>16899832
Those are female lions in your pic.

I had so much on my mind. I was so glad. . .
>when I died.

Don't worry guys. Some superior woman will civilize us, someday.

>Meanwhile, in Burgerland. . . .

>>16904823
Some dumb man (and the government) will be willing to simp for this goblina up until about age 65.
>B-but women are the victims of the patriarchy.

>>16899045
Spoken like a weakling, and you wonder why we are masters and the rest of you serve

>>16899020
How... banal

>>16899020
>Was he right?
No, he was a pussy ass faggot.

American women wouldn't date the kind of men they are raising. There is no future in any of this.

>>16899020
Yes, but he didn't go full PUA
Neil Strauss, on the other hand...

>>16899020
>Was he right?
Yes, though he is actually describing Anglozionist anticulture in general, not just Unitedstation anticulture in particular.

One is inspired into the body, and born into the sex, to which one's person is temperamentally affined, and/or through which one's person strives to reconcile itself; the body, and the sex, and/or the gender, should become (more like) the androgynous person, not viceversa.

>>16905502
he hasn't watched the pussygetter outfit video

>>16902851
>>>168
based antinatalist

>>16905470
exactly. one woman once said it would be so great if kittens never grew up into adult cats. now extrapolate it to their children.

>>16899020
Sure, but there's a bigger point behind that of the momentum of masculine agency.
In a world where men have historically been the primary breadwinner, every man that isn't a close friend or a family member is a competitor for the means you're trying to secure for your friends and family.
And when you have a son you have an instinct to teach him these lessons early on before outside forces can corrupt him into being an agreeable waste of resources, because they absolutely will.
Also, you are constantly being judged or on display, and it's very important that people in general are raised knowing that.

>>16899832
>The constant competition for existence compels all amerifats to strive to increase their gdp per capita and wageslave while also reproducing a fair supply of docile cattle on the unavoidable march towards delapidation and death.

>>16907483
Alternative?

>>16899020
That's rich coming from a sexual predator and stalker.

>>16899020
Don't think so. I mean I was a kid generations after Wallace, but I sure don't remember any sense growing up that it isn't enough if I win but that the other boys must lose. Not that you'd know that from this thread though.

>>16908069
This is why I hate internet people. No one is good enough for them. You're not allowed to admire people or their talents. Let me guess, you're female. Go back to Twatter.

>>16908069
Oh good, the LIt PC Police are here. Save us from likin dem bad tings. Save us!

>>16899156
social media makes you go full gollum

>>16899020
looks like the system works

>>16899020
I don't think that's the kind of statement that can be objectively 'right'. It might describe his world, but mine is different enough I can't agree with it. All cultures have an idea of masculinity that's instilled from an early age, and the American style never struck me as more brutal than any other industrial society. It's certainly more sophisticated and alienated now, which I don't think is an improvement over whatever macho 80's culture he's talking about. Now someone can see their value in terms of consumerist choices and political opinions, be obsessed about social media, seek out unnecessary sympathy and validation from strangers, etc.
>>16899123
He spent his entire life in academia, addicted to TV, and it shows. But it's funny you would say that because he always goes on about how deep and meaningful the things we take as banal platitudes actually are.

>>16901256

Ants are basically a super organism with a collective genetic imperative so this is a really weak counterpoint. Ant colonies engage other colonies hyper aggressively.

Cooperation and competition is also a shit false dichotomy anyway so even if your example was relevant you'd be proving nothing. Both play a role in propagating our species

>jewish
Into the trash it goes

"Not being able to show your emotion" is just leftist code for "not everyone is homosexual and I think they should be"

>>16908629
you have been born homosexual, right?

>>16908214
price for anonymity. eggs teach chicken.

>>16908437
Checks out

>>16899043
Brave.

>>16905094
>t. jew

>>16899020
Why do people think that masculinity is a specifically anAmerican thing? As a bunch of people in the thread saiid it's just how men work and have worked since men and women existed. Sure, specific values and awards are subject to change over time and place but the basic concept stayed the same. The only real problem with American masculinity is the fact that most of it is based on retarded material things like cars, houses, money etc instead of principals, freedoms, and so on. This is not to say that one shouldn't try to buy a car, a house, or settle down with a woman, but that those things aren't what fundimentally show a person's value, especially in today's society. You can buy a house and a car by walking to the nearest bank, going through countless levels of burocracy, and taking out a loan and having to pay it off for the next 20 odd years. You can get a woman by downloading an app and simping for her enough, or having a good enough car for which you just do as I said before. On the other hand hard work is at best shortly appreciated or at worst completely goes ignored. Same for truly anything else that we used to value. Principals? Who needs that? Just say whatever is popular opinion these days and get free appreciation. Morals? Who needs that just pretend like you're outraged when man on tv says you should be, everything else is just a distraction from getting more $$$. Community or social group you can have fun with? Just go to your favorite subreddit and pretend like getting upvotes when you say good thing and get downvotes when you say bad thing is how a real community is suppose to work.
I have a feeling that DFW is just misidentifying the problem and isn't actually concern larping like many progressives and social "scientists" are these days.

>>16903817
>What a retarded statement. External confirmation of the internal is a standard mechanism for determining if you're doing something right. It's very rare that someone in disagreement with the majority within the relevant sector is correct about something, it usually signals the beginning of a profound societal shift. It's not impossible, it's just valid to say "Everyone says I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong", and it requires enormous energy to maintain the position that you're right despite constant disagreement on all sides.

At least you concede that your Epistemology is indistinguishable from a housewife's.

I've been reading a bit of Bourdieu for my sociology class and this thread really popped up at the right time, ty guys

I find it absolutely crazy how brainwashed such modern "intellectuals" can be, it is as if they were merely discussing pre-determined ideas.
Men are always at fault, we discuss how much they are at fault and how within those boundaries, that's our intellectual pursuit. Not once do those people question their axiom, what if men weren't acting wrong, but women instead, were, increasingly? Is masculinity this bad?

I find it crazy how those people can call themselves intellectuals when they're just throwing feces at each other, thinking they're having a profound intellectual analysis where, in reality, they are just discussing the technicalities of what has already been thought for them beforehand ; men bad, women good.

>>16908437

>>16909223
I'm not american but those data always sounded bs to me. Nevertheless the fact that an old friend of mine has decided to transition has me quite worried about his mental health, both present and future

>>16901256
The idea of masculinity that you speak about is not unique to america, nearly every culture independently arrived at this "flawed" conception of masculinity. Those "masculine" behaviors are validated because those are what made society and civilization prevail

>>16908069
Well yeah, he's the prototype for all of the toxic, sometimes sexual criminals that fill antifas ranks today

>>16899832
>cooperation bad
>pack of lions eating one zebra

>>16910220
Youre right, tribal behavior is a form of cooperation seen in almost sent successful organism. But tribes have a hard cognitive and social limit of 150 people for humans, because it can only be accomplished with a distinct antagonist that everyone agrees upon while seeing the direct value to the cause in their own actions

>>16899832

This is simply not true in the slightest
You seriously think that animals wild animals engage in competition with other animals purely out of what? sport or some higher level desire?
Competition is nothing more than a consequence of survival on an individual level an undesirable side effect that also happens to act as a crucial balancing factor except not really any more with the advent of humanity
It's hilarious to me that humans of all creatures love to extoll the importance and virtue of competition when they have in fact completely extinguished it from the world and literally have to artificially manufacture it amongst themselves as if they are children playing make believe
The simple fact is you have never competed in your whole life you have been placed in a little bubble that was explicitly made for you to feel as though you had

not really. american men are pussies and many have the socialisation of women. it's more accurate to talk about the feminine side, the extreme and primitive shaming, inability to tolerant difference, etc.

>>16899020
He killed himself. Opinion invalidated.

>>16909211
>Not once do those people question their axiom, what if men weren't acting wrong, but women instead, were, increasingly? Is masculinity this bad?
but the quote isn't talking about women and femininity, anon. It's talking about men and masculinity. It's specifically referring to how men are thrown into competition with one another as a way to reconcile the unattainable virtues of masculinity - men can't continue to conquer and dominate endlessly, especially without objective or underlying purpose. Since conventional machismo goals are not reachable, the pursuit of endless competition must lead to feelings of inadequacy as the result of an eventual failure.

You inviting women into the equation is sus asf

>>16899045
Yes, but that doesn’t mean you stop competing. I appreciate this ideal: be without hatred, but fight all out. Pic related.

>>16908551
I'm not sure that it describes his world either.

>>16903363
Based.

I'm with him up until he mentions domination and strength. I think the concept of masculinity has been bastardized and mutilated throughout the course of time but I despise this attack on strength that's in vogue these past several decades.

>>16899020
Yes, that's why he dresses like such a total disheveled homo. Those dumb jocks who got laid more than him in high school can't tell him what to do. He's raging against the machine, and like, capitalism, and like, the system, man.

>>16899045
>Real learning
>Absence of anything that would stop it going perfectly
Learning to do what? Mentally masturbate and never test your ideas in the real world?

>>16899045
Our society will collapse without this manhood model, even women who work and are very high in their career follow/imitate that manhood model

>>16903817
Based

>>16909062
Did I call it epistemology faggot? It's a heuristic, not a determination mechanism. For every one genius who revolutionized mathematics, there are a million utter retards who think 3x4=13. The truthiness of something is a product of its logical consistency, but if you are too stupid to evaluate logical chains then "Is everyone calling me a retard" is a fair alternative and will usually be right.

>>16909223
>>16909259
It's worth pointing out that 1% suicide is still very elevated compared to normal, and the person who posted this tweet is a VERY anti-trans sexual psychologist

>>16910257
I can't believe they aren't cooperating.

>>16899020
completely fucking wrong.

“The world is what it is; men who are nothing, who allow themselves to become nothing, have no place in it.”

1st fucking page of A Bend In The River by V.S. Naipaul.

DFW is a perfect example of trying to read and write your way out of being a giant fucking pussy.

>>16910282
>successfully leave offspring

>>16899045
I'm amazed at the amount of butthurt responses you received. Seems like /lit/ is a tranny echochamber after all.

haha, never once have i entered /lit/ but the homepage brings me here (thought OPs pic was some rarity of Axl [i don't have my glasses on atm]). I read OP and wonder what the responses might be like. Yep, still plenty of "faggot" and "tranny echo chamber" etc. lol.

Yes which is an artifact of protestantism/transcendentalism and capitalism and females being the sole rear-ers.

I have yet to hear an explanation on "toxic masculinity" in the age of males being raised almost exclusively by women.
This was not the case previously, if you can imagine a world of producing physical products locally--thus, most were self-employed in a craft... fathers had more time with their sons.

Daily reminder that the eliminating the christcuck 14 day ban on in-vitro human embryo growth is necessary to make women obsolete and thus improve humanity.