/lit/ - Literature

>>16811243
which of the famous pomo philosophers wasn't a marxist and or far leftist?

>>16811243
Watch this for a short answer I guess
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFk4335S2Bs&ab_channel=Bite-sizedPhilosophy

>>16811254
Baudrillard

>>16811254
Literally all of them, post modernism is anti-marxist because marxism is one of the grand narratives it seeks to deconstruct, not everyone you hate is in the same group of people and sometimes they hate each other too

>>16811243
He’s secretly dumb.

>>16811276
so when the pomo philosophers were done 'deconstructing' marxism how many of them ended up as anything other than anti-capitalist, anti-religious, anti-tradition left wingers? I don't care if they aren't card carrying marxists; they act like and ally themselves with marxists. that's the real point being made. no one thinks that postmodernism is literally equivalent with marxism, the point is that these two schools of thought are always holding hands. when's the last time some faggot academic "deconstructed" the globohomo agenda? why is it then when all the metanarratives are destroyed the conclusion just HAPPENS to be: "whoa guys it turns out that social liberalism and fiscal liberalism are the real answer! who would have thought?" why are none of, and I mean literally none of, these cunts even slightly right wing?

>>16811332
Marxists are neither socially liberal nor fiscally liberal. But postmodernists frequently are.

>>16811254
Foucault was a staunch critic of marxism

It comes down to post-modernism being hard to define. Obviously he doesn't think of it simply as "rejection of a grand narrative" because Marxism is clearly a grand narrative. He thinks of it more as a rejection of traditional cultural values

>>16811332
A very large amount. I personally know multiple postmodern type academics and “artists” that are just liberals in love with mainstream democrats like Kamala

>>16811332
They end up embracing something that is similar to Marxism but without any kind of meaning attached to it. It's weird.

He's smart enough to know most zoomers easily fall for buzzwords like boogeymen so saying "post-modern marxism bad" gets them drooling and get them hooked so they can listen to him fully explain himself.

maybe because he was fucked up on all those benzos

>>16811254
You cannot be simultaneously post-modern and a Marxist, they fundamentally conflict.
t. Someone who hates both

>>16811349
True Marxists aren’t, but “neo-Marxists” of today that are just useful idiots of the ideologies of Frankfurt’s school, whose basis is Marxism

>>16811243
Why does he squint like that? Does he think it makes him look intelligent?

>>16811352
Foucault was a Marxist that tried to normalize pedophilia like all leftists do

>>16811332
>social liberalism
>in any way related to Marxism
The absolute state of /lit/.

>>16811434
In the world where race is a social construction and mathematics is a white men’s endeavor, Marxists can be and ARE the same as postmodernists

>>16811440
he's passing out from all the benzos
seems to be kind of greasy too; must have the meat sweats

>>16811447
Quote Marx advocating for social conservatism
Faggoty shill

>>16811441
A marxist who praised right-wing liberals like Hayek and who demanded all mention of Marxism be taken out of his earlier books? A marxist who literally said that Communism was, by its very definition, murderous and genocidal and could not possibly exist in any non-genocidal context.

>>16811459
Quote marx advocating for trannies faggot

>>16811332
yeah we all know the gays control the world as is evident by all the gay people that get killed around the world

>>16811243
He doesn't, he claims there is a contemporary trend in academia that takes its cues from both postmodern relativism and marxist dialectics, together producing a powerful and alluring brand of cancerous deconstruction and retardation.

>>16811441
Ah yes, Foucault, the man who was incredibly anti-Marxist because of the rampant homophobia in Marxist circles was in fact a Marxist.

>>16811470
>>16811539
cope knowing you're a leftist and by default a pedo. kys nigger

>>16811549
>by default a pedo.
By default pedo? really? I don't think leftists are usually Christian but ok.

>>16811549
Bad bait
>>16811563
Extremely Reddit

>>16811563
ok j*w

>>16811563
Liberation theology

>>16811570
cope
>>16811578
Christianity is a jewish religion, keep coping though. You worship a Jew from the middle east.
>>16811596
Actually kinda based

>>16811596

>>16811276
yes, theoretically you are correct, but they still all end up being marxist anyway. come on, we all fucking know this is true lol

>>16811635
Postmodernists just default to edgy faux-left liberals

>>16811243
This is my personal take - and it's one of the few critiques of Peterson I actually agree with - but he doesn't give them enough credit. Peterson draws on Heidegger but somehow fails to see any affinity with Derrida. He would probably be more correct about his analysis of "neomarxism" if he were talking specifically about the late modernists and the frankfurt school, but he doesn't specify the boogeyman he's attacking politically any further than "post-modern neo-marxist". It's ignorant and inflammatory, pure and simple.

>>16811243
Is funny seeing how much a self-help author can get into the mind of the Plebs.
>Lul clean your bedroom coomer.

>>16811283
You have to be 25 to understand this post.

>>16811276
The postmodernists did intellectually destroy Marxism, but they weren’t the first to do so.

>>16811243

can we just stop with the beterson meme. Total midwit tier sophist, 12 rules for life was unforgivable for any genuine intellectual and should put you off, if the actually insane lectures didn’t already. Same post happens when gore vidal or bloom are quoted saying something baity. At least gore was pretty funny tho and not just trying to create a cult of personality totally disproportionate to his work.

>>16811254
Most of them were left wing, none of them were Marxists.

Baudrillard wrote The Mirror of Production attacking Marxism,
Derrida literally didn’t talk about Marx at all until after the Soviet Union fell, and even then he only wrote a book about Marx to be a contrarian.
Focuault’s whole project is describing an anti -marxist theory of power, and his genological method is also meant to critique historical materialism.
Lyotard wrote Libidinal Economy in critique of Marxism.
While D&G’s Anti-Oedipus is mostly an attack on Freud and Lacan, it’s absolutely also an attack on Hegel and Marx as well.

Who else counts as a postmodernist?

>>16811441

my mom is a postmodernist but she’s not a Marxist or a leftist

>>16811243

“I dreamed I saw my maternal grandmother sitting by the bank of a swimming pool, that was also a river. In real life, she had been a victim of Alzheimer’s disease, and had regressed, before her death, to a semi-conscious state. In the dream, as well, she had lost her capacity for self-control. Her genital region was exposed, dimly; it had the appearance of a thick mat of hair. She was stroking herself, absent-mindedly. She walked over to me, with a handful of pubic hair, compacted into something resembling a large artist’s paint-brush. She pushed this at my face. I raised my arm, several times, to deflect her hand; finally, unwilling to hurt her, or interfere with her any farther, I let her have her way. She stroked my face with the brush, gently, and said, like a child, “isn’t it soft?” I looked at her ruined face and said, “yes, Grandma, it’s soft.”

― Jordan B. Peterson, Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief

>>16811332
this is retarded. the only “pomo” philosopher that doesn’t hate globalization is that moron bruno latour.

>>16811679
Peterson probably doesn’t understand Heidegger, he’s a fucking idiot

>>16811254
Derrida. He was accused by left wing French academia of being apolitical and having a philosophy that was corrosive to social justice and Marxism all throughout his career.

>>16811470
Yes.

>>16812008
based

>>16811243
because
he
sucks

>>16811332
Laughing @ u

>>16811243
>why does he think bla bla bla
He doesn't think, not after cold turkey.

>>16811332
Trump is the postmodern president

>>16811254
Foucault

>>16811621
These botched Spanish restorations are getting out of hand

>>16811332
Globalism is right wing.

>>16812164
Foucault was still a leftist no? He just hated marxism. I think the issue

>>16811243

He hasn't read the literature, he's of above average intelligence and he's prone to just winging it because it has gotten him pretty far in life/academia without being exposed for the mediocrity, charlatan and sophist that he is.

He's also an insecure and sensitive demagogue who's emotionally unstable so he appeals to overly reductive explanations to cope with and explain with reality. Everything bad is marxist or marxist related type of thinking.

>>16812219
He embraced the free market in his later years. Really depends on what you mean by "left."

>>16811254
>>16811276
>>16811332
Only Deleuze out of all the people typically ascribed the pomo label was a marxist in any real sense.

Post-modernists do not meet a single criterion of old fashioned Marxism but it is incredibly obvious to anyone who isn't a pedantic tard that they are at their core Marxists. Being something while not being something such that you aren't that when it's inconvenient and you are when it is: that's pomo for you.

>>16811272
Retard

>>16811332
Dumbfuck, they all grew out of Marxist tradition but created a leftist alternative to Marxism that basically just merged with liberal philosophy and ethics taken from the Enlightenment. Kant is just as much their forefather as Marx is, that's why most leftists today are literally just progressive liberals that want to reform capitalist society with "healthcare" and "equality" and taking down "white supremacy" instead of abolishing capitalism.

Because he's right. Post-modernism and Marxism are fundamentally the same thing and have the same goals

I think his gist is that no one lives without a meta-narrative. Some thinkers have been deconstructing this or that thing as oppressive but somehow many of those people are still leftist cucks and he calls those people "marxists".

Marxists are all in bed with post-modernism. Literally every one defends stuff like postmodern art and architecture.

>>16812184
Yes globalism can be right wing too

>>16811332
>when's the last time some faggot academic "deconstructed" the globohomo agenda
lmfao What do you think MARXISM is?

>>16811243
because pomo is an obvious ontological outgrowth of marxism and the marxist tradition. all post modernist are marxists in the same way that all protestants are lutherans because they follow in the lutherian protestant tradition, even though not all protestants belong specifically to the lutheran denomination. Obviously not all post modernists follow or even read marx, but they certainly carry on in same tradition.

>>16812796
he’s talking about postmodernist philosophers, not artists. the two movements are seperate.

>>16811999
cope

>>16811479
>>16811447
>the absolute state of /lit/
>/lit/ superstar dostoevsky sets out to depict a marxist
>he's a polyamorist cuckold
BASED LENIN killed some prostitutes, or so I've heard, but there has always been an undercurrent of social liberalism in marxism.

He's a university professor. His primary exposure to leftists are humanities students who he meets in class. These students are still figuring out where they stand in terms of their political opinions and are still gathering ideas and concepts from leftist theory. They're reading Marx, Foucault, Derrida, Butler, all kinds of stuff. Peterson erroneously assumes that the theorists these leftist students are all somehow in the same intellectual camp, because he only interacts with them in the form of the amalgamated, half-formed, preliminary understanding of undergraduates.

>>16811332
Lmao look at all the marxists and pomos seething, this post hit the nail on the head
>>16811493
That's not what globohomo means retard

>>16811243
>why does he think
he doesnt

>>16811332
Why are absolute Brainlets like you on /lit/?
You cannot possibly read ANYTHING non fiction and write mouth breather posts like these. Go back to whatever containment board you came from.
Marxists frequently fucking dunk on globalism, but your small pea brain has decided anything not sucking "based trad cath" dick is marxist.

>>16811679
At least you can acknowledge Peterson is being a retard on this point.
Way better than the retards who keep up his idiotic strawman of "post modern neo marxism".

please send academic models back into the university bubble

>>16814198
>Marxists frequently fucking dunk on globalism
They also support a worldwide communist revolution, no?

>>16811452
Get off the internet for a while my dude

>>16811276
Postmodernism is just the Marxist strategy of the long walk through the institutions. Marxists realized they can only destroy capitalism by destroying western society first. So they became postmodernists.

>>16811243
Postmodernism, marxism, corporate capitalism and globalism are all effectively the same thing. Smart people recognize the common undercurrent which is why these people will ally in their goals more often than not. If you trace this current backwards you will arrive at the motherlode which is Judeo-Masonry and French Revolution. These movements are just offspring of that motherlode. It doesn't mean that every postmodern, marxist or frankfurt school consciously knows he is merely acting in the interest of Judeo-masons who wish to destroy the church and western society, but that is in fact what they do.

>>16814198
imagine being this dumb. when it rains you probably think you're melting

>>16811243
That's what they call themselves. Even on this board, those who pretend to be a genuine Marxist is actually some kind of homoglobopomo tranny.

>>16811479
>The Communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional
property-relations; no wonder that its development involves the most radical
rupture with traditional ideas.
>Law, morality, religion, are to him so many bourgeois prejudices, behind
which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests.
>But, you will say, we destroy the most hallowed of relations, when we replace
home education by social.
>And your education! Is not that also social, and determined by the social
conditions under which you educate, by the intervention, direct or indirect, of
society by means of schools, &c.? The Communists have not invented the
intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that
intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class

The day of your genocide is coming, no quarter will be paid. Welcome to hell faggot

>>16811999
>foremost psychologue
>lectured in harvard, u of t
>one of the most productive phd students of mcgill
>best seller
>international figure
>rich
As much of an idiot as Donald Trump
You'll never be a woman, youre kill yourself soon enough and thats a great thing, your friends should do the same

>>16814322
Stalin had his "socialism in one country" policy, which was the Soviet Union.
However Marx's original idea was for people to live in local "communes" (communism).
Whether that is possible today due to advances in information technology, and the explosion of the internet and dependence on world wide trade can be discussed, but what we have now as "globalism" is not an inherent marxist concept at all, it's part of the liberal ideology of world wide trade and the expansion of capitalism globally.
When politicians speak of globalism and world order, they mean trade and economic freedom. It's part of WHAT Marx described as typical bourgeois politics, globalism has nothing to do with freedom for people to move and live (look at the European Union and the heavy border control of immigrants), it's about economic expansion and increased tourism and consumerism.
So no, marxism is once again the target for "whatever the right doesn't like", like it has been the last 60 years.
Now postmodernism is the new hot buzzword and is cobbled with marxism (wrongly) into some kind of political straw man abomination that pseud celebrities like Peterson and youtubers can bash on for unlimited views and likes.

>>16814334
I am not your dude, low-testosterone fat faggot

>>16811243
Because outside of his very narrow wheelhouse(encouraging young men not to be shitty and care about themselves), he's a drooling moron.

>>16822332
Please read the declassified "on the defection of french intellectuals" published by the CIA which charts how almost every french intellectual including the postmodernists not only actively declined offers to hold positions in the govt by left parties, but we're actively opposed to leftist parties after late 1960. It helps to know concrete history for reference when making an argument. Most pomo writers ended up being pro American and hostile to leftist both in theory and action.

Speaking as someone who actually wasted a lot of time reading nonsense written by both the left and pomo and now regrets it.

>>16814528
Why do you regret it?
At least now you know enough to not conflate the two, like so many dumb dumbs in this thread.

Serious post-modern thinkers would pretty handily be able to dodge the accusation.

The average person the street doesn't put any thought into their worldview.
Post-modern thought has ripped them away from convention and they easily fall back into rung of idealism, easily the most vocal and ready to exploit them, marxism.

Hop skip from "society doesn't always make sense and isn't entirely working the way it should" to "class/race warfare"

>#not all
lmao yeah and not every priest believes in God

>>16811243
because he read the stephen hicks book

>>16811276
Best post itt, illiterate /pol/tards BTFO

>>16814198
This, based

>>16814198
marxists mostly dunk on the gloablist economy, not the idea of multiculturalism or the globalist state, don't be disingenuous.

Leftists call anyone right of Trotsky a fascist but throw a hissy fit if anyone uses the term Marxist loosely.

Who still cares about this grifter who told us to put our lives into order and then proceeded to get a crippling benzo addiction and ended up with permanent brain damage after detoxing with Russian quack doctors?
He got BTFO'd by Zizek of all people, and proven that he had no clue what Marxism is as a philosophical theory, he couldn't even understand why Marx & Engels would praise the dynamics of capitalism in the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto.
He was just selling self-help platitudes and re-heated Cold War propaganda for sweet Patreon bucks. Just leave this man in peace, he is now retired and should remain that way.

>>16812647
This. Foucault was a libtard. Baudrillard took situationnist theory and removed any trace of Marxism from it. Derrida said Marx will haunt liberal society till the end because he was taking the piss out of everyone, his deconstruction shtick was satire. I barely read any philosophy and even I know this.

>>16815314
Trotsky was considered a reactionary as well.

>>16815277
What the fuck do you think multiculturalism is apart from an effect of the global economy?

>>16811535
Goodbye you cute little monkey. Back where you belong. Too bad your famalam isn't going with you!

>>16811283
>secretly

>>16814680
Both failed in helping me build any useful, insightful or intelligent understanding (or ways of understanding) of how social life is organized. Or think about it in a way that yields any quality that I admire in me.
I set out to understand my discontent in the social world but after having spent time poring through foundational texts of the left (to ensure i understood them) it became apparent that people who still take it seriously don't fully appreciate how obsolete it is as a form of politics and that at its core lie promises for utopia guaranteed by a hybrid of pseudoscience and philosophy that by design inures itself against any criticism, adaptation or challenge - something perfect to raise cults (intellectual and activist) that channel discontent. I had really hoped it would deliver and was crushed that all the time I spent was on an unsalvageable social 'science'. Moreover, it causes resentment, frustration and despair at the lack of the world changing (or arriving closer to the promised revolution that'll undo the crushing toils of how working life is currently organized for so many).

The postmodernists are worse. At least orthodox marxists try to be comprehensible and give somewhat of a shit about the working class. When they wrote their pamphlets they seriously tried to make them accessible to people for reading, improving and changing conditions. One learns some history through them too. French postmodernists on the other hand exclusively write to signal intellectualism through obscurantist nonsense. The charlatanism in this tradition is unreal. They absolve themselves of the responsibility of stating anything that can be provably, demonstrably and publicly shown as wrong, incoherent or useful by resorting to meaninglessness, vague intuitions dressed up in pretty prose that catches the fancy of sophomores because its /french/, literary devices that aren't treated as literature but as "theory" or expert social commentary when it's just.. barely anything beyond masturbatory intellectualism.

I'm sure many on this board would highly disagree. That's fine. I can be wrong. But has either tradition made me a better person given the time i spent taking them seriously? Not really. Have the french postmodernists been of any use to me or the part of society outside the academic tradition that obsesses over it? Not in my judgment. Can I use either in my lifetime for a political or social understanding that contextualizes my discontent in any productive way? Doubt it. A better politics or "theory" surely exists.

>>16811243
>why does he think every post-modernist is a Marxist i dont get it
Because he is hopped up on crazy pills

>>16814482
>As much of an idiot as Donald Trump

What is Trump's take on Being and Time?

>>16814680
Both failed in their own ways to help me arrive at even a remotely satisfactory understanding of social life.

It became apparent that people who still take leftism seriously don't fully appreciate how obsolete it is as a form of politics. At its core- a promise for utopia guaranteed by a hybrid of dead pseudoscience and philosophy that by design inures itself against any criticism or adaptation - something perfect to raise cults (intellectual and activist) that channel discontent. It's unsalvageable. Moreover, it causes resentment and despair at the lack of the world changing (or arriving closer to the promised revolution that'll undo the crushing toils of how working life is currently organized for so many).

The postmodernists are worse. At least orthodox marxists give somewhat of a shit about the working class - their pamphlets/texts are accessible, serve some use. One learns some history through them too. French postmodernists seem to write to signal intellectualism - for themselves and their college sophomore enthusiasts who get prescribed the same books year after year. I found it to be ersatz literature disguising vague intuitions masquerading as precise ideas that ultimately do nothing interesting/insightful.

I'm sure many might disagree. But have the french postmodernists been of any use to me or the part of society outside the academic tradition that obsesses over it? Can I use either in my lifetime for a political or social understanding that contextualizes my discontent in any productive way? Do they help me communicate with people who speak about their lives outside academia? Or arrive at a common understanding? Can one even confidently assert their knowledge to anyone who isn't already an enthusiast?

>>16815824
>What is Trump's take on Being and Time?
He completed the system of German idealism. What need does he have to address a pseud like Heidegger?

>>16811243
whats weird is he is a goofball jungian hippy postmodernist.

>>16815871
>He completed the system of German idealism

> not mastering the épochè so as to permanently suspend the natural attitude and gain a direct link to the transcendental.

Absolute pleb.

>>16811349
postmodernists are socially liberal, rarely fiscally liberal

>>16815393
did you read practical idealism by kalgeri? mass immigration is a political goal in its own right for our elites. they think it's a way to quickly eliminate differences between nationalities, both in terms of culture and genetic temperament, for the purpose of making it homogenous and so bringing about world peace. basically they're schizos who think they're breeding the race of the future, just like the racial purity larpers.

>>16811243
because 2 generations ago a particular anti-Semitic conspiracy theory entered the hyperstition he purports to dissect, but just like every lazy psychology student, he refuses to look into the mirror and see just another balding primate

>>16811332
You guys have to find a better term than globohomo

>>16812647
Deleuze described himself as a marxist, but considering his philosophy, some marxists (including Zizek) stipulated that he's a liberal and not a true marxist.

>>16811332
>when's the last time some faggot academic "deconstructed"
Academics is not where you'll find authentic marxists. Works for other fields too.

>>16812694
thats not very nice anon my feelings are hurt please apologize

>>16812746
>instead of abolishing capitalism.
I don't think they can even conceptualize this. It's like the native indians who supposedly didn't see the boats coming, because they had no idea what a boat is.

(...)
Especially the americans, whose very identity is rooted in money, and exchange value.

>>16811332

>>16811332
>anything outside of religious traditionalism is marxism
The absolute state. This answers the initial question of the thread, funnily enough

I think people are conflating the marxist tradition of critique of capitalism and trying to identify and theorize the extent of its appendages with a Marxist-Leninist political ideology trying to create a working class revolution.

In a sense anybody serious about understanding political philosophy is in some sense an orthodox marxist in that the understanding and critique of capitalism is essentially impossible to avoid, but you dont have to accept ideology parallel to orthodox marxism that seeks some kind of socialist revolution.

Marxism is really an academic tradition at heart and its why you can have "Marxists" like Zizek or Deleuze that have no allegiances or belief in an inevitable working class socialist revolution

>tfw when you get big bux by conflating two "big" words to make a scarecrow with which you spook stupid people and it turns out you have read only communist manifesto and some guy who wrote something and postmodernism

>>16816081
do you prefer "pozzed'?

>>16811283
>>16811754
>>16815498
this

>>16811243
Frankfurter schüle invented Pomo, they were Neomarxists. Pomo is a fundamentally Neomarxist project, it doesn't matter that some Pomo's critiqued old Marxism.

>>16811434
>no one has ever held two contradictory believes at the same time.

>>16817005
only schizos and politicians

>>16812008
he supported the social democrat Lionel Jospin for the 2002's presidential election until he decided his immigration policies were too harsh. All that tremendous intellectual production only to end as a milquetoast boring fag when it comes to politics.

>>16817227
doesn't matter. writers and philosophers don't have to have great personal politics as long as they still allow themselves to think freely in their intellectual work.

>>16811243
Either he's an idiot, which is wyite likely, or he's on a personal crusade, he believes moral-relativism will lead society down a "slippery-slope" into godless heathenry and decided to attach his propaganda to the well established and effective anti-marxist state propaganda.

>>16817281
I'm not saying they have to, just feeling a lot of disappointment. I would have not thought that someone who spent so many time thinking, thinking critically, wouldn't act much differently than a redditor or some high paygrade bourgeois boheme from Paris