/lit/ - Literature

it's man's search for meaning, faggot

>>16526496
Has he gone back to taking drugs and backpacking or something?

>>16526496
They enjoy the flashy mysticism and egocentrism that Eastern religion offers but aren't willing to face the atonement and denial of self that is fundamental to Christianity. In other words, they're self centred faggots who are only in it for thrills, and have no real sense of spirituality. This is the exact same reason why people take psychedelic drugs, incidentally.

the symbolicism and meaning in western religion (christianity) are polluted in the mind of the public. People find it difficult to see the underlying truth and underlying message, as they associate the symbols in which stories are told, with what they see as the negative in society. Many do not want to do the intellectual work which is to clear the symbols in their minds from the said pollution, so they just adopt the diluted, abstracted version of another symbol-system.

>>16526516
Have you even read any of Harris' work? He's a colossal pseud.

>>16526547
Absolutely. Unwillingness to part with pride is the real reason most attempt to reject Christianity whether conscious of this or not.

>>16526548
The strawman that western media portrays Christianity as is of course made to make it as dismissable as possible. If people actually knew what living a Christian life felt like, they would have a hard time living an alternative

>dude it's more like a PHILOSOPHY not a religion

>>16526496
It’s easier. It’s consumable. There’s no “check” on your understanding, like understanding theology or remembering passages or engaging in a church. It’s exotic.

>>16526496
>turns to eastern religion
That rarely happens, unless by religion you mean the Western "spiritualization" of foreign religions.

>>16526673
>eastern philosophy and religion emphasizes most on asceticism
>durr they're too proud thats why they turn to buddhism or taoism

>>16526706
> asceticism
Why do no western practitioners of eastern religions incorporate the asceticism into their lives? Gee i wonder

>>16526717
Golly gee I too wonder why men surrounded by distractions and raised up to be consumers in the west don’t adopt asceticism. Well, I really do wonder why Christians allow popes and megachurches to exist when it was against their teachings. Gee I golly gee wonder

>>16526733
>golly gee
shut the fuck up

>>16526547
>t. SSPX PRO
lmfao

>>16526699
Yeah, this entire conception belies a total lack of understanding of what "Eastern Religion" actually entails. These retards will in one breath say that Eastern religion is atheistic nihilism focused on self denial and the annihilation of the self, but will then turn around and say that it's a glorification of the ego for people who aren't willing to face self denial. It's literally just
>20th century Italian Catholicism has BASED aesthetics, and if you don't like my aesthetics then you're CRINGE
It's unironically the theology of reddit.

This is, of course, despite the fact that what this "Eastern Religion" simply IS Christianity. The common notion of "karma" as "the in-this-life payback for good or bad deeds" is just a retooled divine punishment and divine reward. Ego death is just St. John of the Cross. Statues of Budai are just Icons. The relationship between student and teacher just flat out IS the relationship between priest and cleric, and has nothing in common with the detached cults of Gods and ancestors, nor with the hyper-personal relationships of student and guru. The notion of "spiritual growth" that these people have are actually just the ideas of shedding of sin, and have nothing to do with the accumulation of merit or alignment with a divine way.

Ironically, the devotees of Eastern Religion, like Sam Harris, are far more closely aligned with the Western tradition than e-trad LARPers who are just looking for an excuse to redo the Protestant Reformation.

>>16526739
Cry moar christfag

>>16526496
bc eastern religion is fetishized as mystical and "other"-y while in reality it is fundamentally all the same shit, so it lets pretentious westerners feel special without adopting any truly unique ideals

>>16526547
>>16526673
>durrrr it's pride and rebellion
You people are so predictable.

>>16526733
>>16526761
Cringe. You should really only start arguments you intend to win otherwise you kind of just make an ass out of yourself. You literally stated my point. "Raised up to be consumers" sounds a lot like pride to me. Pride is the filter for religion and that is not even a uniquely Christian idea

>>16526781
And its predictable to us why you are an atheist. Pride is the filter and you got filtered.

>>16526739
>Christcuck: "Gee i wonder"
>Chad: "I golly gee wonder"
>Christcuk: SHUT UP SHUT UP

>>16526717
Same reason western "Christians" are money worshipers

>>16526797
Wasn't me who replied. But calling yourself a chad is peak cringe.
>>16526802
I dont deny that some prots have turned capitalism as an idol. This is why Orthodox/Catholics think protestants were a mistake. They turn whatever they glorify into an idol of Jesus and create their own religion.

>>16526758
>"Eastern Religion" is just putting a coat of Orientalism on Christianity
>"Based E-Trad SSPX" is just putting a Christian coat on Revolutionary Liberalism
This is why people hate theology, lmfao.

>>16526825
I agree with you anon. Catholics weep for the current state of confusion.

>>16526819
>This is why Orthodox/Catholics think protestants were a mistake. They turn whatever they glorify into an idol of Jesus and create their own religion.

Lmao the pope has a fucking Golden Throne and a palace you absolute heretic

>>16526837
>"joined" a religion solely so he could change it
You're part of the problem, anon. If you actually wanted to be "trad", you'd go to the Methodist church down the road that your grandparents went to.

>>16526819
Kek. It was me who said golly gee moron. Keep coping
>>16526787
>being a consumer gives pride.
Only in America can you find braindead fuckers like this. Go neck the bankers and politicians in your country before they control every aspect of your lives

>>16526496
I'll never understand the appeal of this guy.

At least Hitchens and Dawkins are entertaining, even if terribly narrow minded and ignorant. This guy is simply irritating.

>>16526844
> implying im from an american protestant family
>>16526863
> being a consumer gives pride
Yes. Engaging in consumerism is peak pride

>>16526548
This and they read this bullshit and think yoga of Love will cure them or something. Intelectuals are the ones that hate being restricted by anything. The island offers them no arbitrary restrictions, western religion is full of. The island is governed by "reason". Everything there is rationalized and explicitely explained. The polluted, unsexy symbolism of the West is declined in favor of " Faith " With no meaning behind. Hollow spiritualism that is supposed to replace belief. Stop trusting the Lord, who condemns "harmless" pleasuers. Do as you please, because you are equipped with LOGIC and REASON. You know what is good for you, don't you?

>>16526733
Didnt prtty much the same thing happen in japan and china too though? with very powerful, and often very corrupt, Buddhist temples and organizations poping up.

>>16526894
> Do as you please, because you are equipped with LOGIC and REASON. You know what is good for you, don't you?
Proving my point on pride being a filter

>>16526894
>Stop trusting the Lord
Yeah, this is another problem you LARPers have: you're completely and totally detached from history. People stopped "trusting the Lord" in the 1700s. You're a little behind the times here. You're no longer trying to convince people to go back to something (YOU especially, as you have nothing to go back to, as you're just hawking more Revolutionary Liberalism), you're trying to get them to deviate from the norm.

>>16526913
Now you are arguing with someone on your side. Someone made you angry today didnt they Anon?

Being a straight up materialist is kind of boring so they try to adopt the religion close to it but still with some mystical crap. Basically they're larping and muh exoticism

>>16526496
Oh. Because the Lord works in mysterious ways, anon. Also: judge not lest ye be judged.

>>16526886
And being a consoomer is the fault of eastern philosophy how? Seems to me you're coping with the fact that they provide solid competition to your Semitic religion

>>16527005
I am not faulting Eastern Religion at all. I have issue with westerners who seek to manufacture their own religion that allows them to keep their pride intact often claiming an eastern religion so they can be vaguely spiritual.

>>16527040
And? Sounds pretty based to me. You get money from morons and the government won't tax you if you write a book while you establish your cult

>>16527060
Works if you aim to posture in a Machiavellian manner to youre deluded atheist audience definitely, but it serves to undermine their credibility to the religious

>>16526496

It's because people who identify as atheist do so primarily because they are struggling with the question of religion in the first place
To proclaim that you are an atheist doesn't mean that you have "detached" from religion in fact it means the exact opposite

>>16527082
>credibility
>religion

>>16527157
> midwit
> coping

>>16526496
Because eastern ”””religions””” are atheistic in disguise

>>16526496
Atheism is dogmatic materialism. They can't go straight into Abrahamic religions because they try to understand things like God and miracles from a material point of view, from which they make no sense, and all the arguments they hear are ultimately referred to the authority of scripture, which is a bad argument. The reason Buddhism or Hinduism can work is they argue a philosophical idealism that dislodges the atheist's dogmatic materialism through argument rather than appeals to doxy.

>>16527187
Pretty good post right here

>>16527187
>Atheism is dogmatic materialism
False. Atheism is the lack of belief in any god.
>>16526776
>while in reality it is fundamentally all the same shit
How so?
>pretentious westerners feel special without adopting any truly unique ideals
What's so good about adopting unique ideals?
>>16526547
>have no real sense of spirituality
Why not?

>>16527232
>False. Atheism is the lack of belief in any god.
If you think through this even one step further you will understand that said lack of belief emerges from dogmatic materialism.

>>16527232
>false

>>16527177
>said the midwit who thought a book written by jews thousands of years ago held all the secrets to the universe

>>16527245
>If you think through this even one step further you will understand that said lack of belief emerges from dogmatic materialism.
Can you explain that step? I do not see it.
>inb4 "I can't"
>>16527248
Do you have a counter argument?

>>16527267
>Can you explain that step? I do not see it.
Well, what is the basis for the unbelief? Always a paean to either the lack of physical evidence for positive religious claims or, in a softer form, the generally arbitrary and chaotic nature of the world being incompatible with a metaphysical order implied by a God or gods. These lines of thought come from the presupposition that the material world is the real world and the whole of it. This is not actually any more "provable" than any given God hypothesis, seeing as we only know the material world through media and not directly, which is why it's a dogmatic form of materialism - but it happens to be the predominant metaphysical view for many westerners today, and really since the Enlightenment, when many material claims from religions started to get dismantled by science.

>>16527317
>Well, what is the basis for the unbelief?
The most likely reason is that the reasons to believe in any god are unconvincing for an atheist.
>Always a paean to either the lack of physical evidence for positive religious claims or, in a softer form, the generally arbitrary and chaotic nature of the world being incompatible with a metaphysical order implied by a God or gods.
It obviously doesn't have to be either of those. The first option is poorly posed there, I guess. It should just be stated that there is a lack of adequate evidence for any god. The lack of physical evidence is just one part of it and is not what is just needed for a good reason to doubt god. I haven't heard of people talking about that second option.
>seeing as we only know the material world through media and not directly, which is why it's a dogmatic form of materialism
Are you trying to point out that some atheists are naively materialists? I don't really see why it matters that much. You haven't made it seem like you have to be a materialist to not believe in any god, still, and just because plenty of atheists have not considered their metaphysical views very deeply, that has nothing to do with atheism itself.

>>16526547
What do you mean here by the denial of self? I don't think that's the right expression to describe christianity. I'd rather say humility, or acceptance of one's place in the higher order of things, accepting your place as a subservient to God.
Denial of self seems to be a thing in buddhism, where the whole endgame is to achieve the complete annihilation of self.
To the contrary, I've seen christians describe the religion as the affirmation of self, affirmation of identity and life, especially in opposition to what Freud calls the death instinct that all humans allegedly possess in favor of annihilation, death, elimination of self. That only through God/Christ can we truly come to fulfill our calling and develop the self fully as intended through the relationship with Jesus.

The Western Atheist rejects "God" as he knows him in the context in which his knowledge exists, which in the West is through Christianity. He is disillusioned with it, he sees its flaws, its inconsistencies, and therefore rejects it as one rejects any flawed Truth, as flawed Truth is not Truth at all, and therefore useless. This is the same phenomenon that we see with Feminists who reject the "Patriarchy". In truth, they don't reject male authority, just western male authority, because they've lost faith in what gave the western man his authority, his closeness to Truth relative to other cultures, which was defined in the Christian context. As the God of the West fell, so did the authority of the Western man, and thus Feminism rejected his authority as invalid.

The Western Atheist finds "God" therefore in a context other than his own, in the East, just as we see Feminists who reject Patriarchy and male authority welcoming immigrants who believe in Patriarchy and male authority over women.

Sam Harris presumably likes Buddhism because it renounces consciousness and worships the void.

>>16526547
/thread

>>16526496
Because Westerners are by definition less familiar with the East, so it appears more wise and mystical to their midwit brains.

>>16526547
Take the Islam pill, infidel.

>>16526496
i'm not up to date. To what religion Sam Harris turned himself to?

>>16528665
Judo-buddhism

>>16528665
meditation-mysticism

>>16526547
>egocentrism of Eastern religion
nobody's gonna call him out for calling Buddhism, a religion whose entire objective is to extinguish your own existence, egocentric?

>>16526787
Raised to be consumers sounds a lot more like greed and gluttony to me

>>16528959
Pride is the root of all evil Anon

>>16526547
Christianity is a manifest failure and, if followed, produces the worst kind of citizens. Jesus literally said "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me". If you own possessions (and you're posting on 4chan, so you do) then you are rejecting the teaching of Christ and are not a true Christian. As a foundation for society, it is completely incoherent. Eastern religions are more about the process of learning and becoming a better being oneself, even if that is just incrementally. This is much better suited to a civilized life.

>>16526673
>Absolutely. Unwillingness to part with pride is the real reason most attempt to reject (My Preferred Religion) whether conscious of this or not.
Maybe rise above the tribal tendency of the primitive part of your brain and realize you are the prideful one and are totally blinded by your own in group bias in regards to religion and philosophy

>>16527317
It is possible to accept that there could be aspects to reality beyond the physical and also reject all current religious claims.

There is an unknown in regards to the immaterial. Just because you insert your "God of the gaps" does not mean anyone is dogmatically materialist if they reject that God.

>>16528665
The Christcucks are just salty Sam likes Eastern religions more then their safety blanket religion. Sam is still an atheist

because eastern religions, that is the ones they turn to (buddhism, taoism) don't depend on a whole lot of dogma and ritual, at least in the way it's used by these sam harris esque characters. you don't see a whole lot of westerners turn to confucianism. they also nitpick a lot and do away with any more dogmatic views within those religions

>>16526664
not really, no.

>>16528999
Absolutely wrong.

>>16528999
Absolutely correct

>>16526547
Christianity is not about self denial. It's about self-realization and then surrender to God. Buddhism is shit exactly because it's selfdenying

>>16526758
>devotees of Eastern Religion, like Sam Harris
lmao
He is neither a devotee, nor does he actually believe any of the eastern religions, he just wanted to make a quick buck on spiritual but not religious atheists who wanted to feel better then christians by being more spiritual, whatever the fuck that word even means anymore

Harris is a softspoken con-man, selling vipassana repackaged as mindfullness like all the other self-help conmen before him.
People who unironically take him or what he represents are actually worse the eLARPers, because they just do it to dab on them.

>>16526913
>You're a little behind the times here.
Did this ever constitute an argument anywhere?

>>16527005
>And being a consoomer is the fault of eastern philosophy how?
look into corporate buddhism

>>16527184
Jainism and Buddhism? yes
Hinduism? No.

>>16527232
>Atheism is the lack of belief in any god
Yes and the natural consequence of that idea is naturalism or materialism. If God does not exist, he did not create the universe, so you are left with materialism or naturalism.

>>16526547
You clearly know nothing about eastern religions of you think they are egocentric and focus on the self. Christianity itself is just a rebranding of Zoroastrianism, which has its roots in Sanatana Dharma, just like all major religions.

>>16526547
You get punished under Buddhism for living an immoral life as well. Christians get an easy way out of punishment by just accepting Jesus. Christfags only cling to Christianity because they want that reassurance that no matter how shitty they are, they can always turn it around at the last minute.

>>16526496
LARPing westerners deserve the rope. You all lost your souls long ago and now kneel before the altar of science.

>>16529357
>surrender to God
Slave. Vessel for other people's ideas. Stand up like a man and reject the manacles proffered for your subjugation

>>16529469
>If you only believe in what has evidence it leads you to naturalism and materialism
HMMMMMMMM TIME FOR THE BIG THINK.....

>>16529098
>eastern religions, that is the ones they turn to (buddhism, taoism) don't depend on a whole lot of dogma and ritual
pro-tip: yes they do

>>16526547

>denial of self that is fundamental to Christianity

Uh .. I think you got your eastern and western religions mixed up there buckaroo

>>16529488
>Slave
We are all slaves to being anon.
You can't escape existence. You are a slave like I am.

>>16529502
Yes that is correct. If you only concern yourself with material evidence you are a materialist. Nothing weird about that statement.

>>16526496
1, The vast majority of religious people are not actually interested in religious philosophy/theology. People want order, tradition and dignity in their religious practices. That's it. Any church that can't provide this will naturally fail. Since Christianity in the west is committing suicide, the religions of the orient will naturally seem appealing

2, Oriental religions are exotic, and haven't been made banal through everyday exposure. For your reddit buddhist, the whole system of buddhism will seem wholly new, unexplored, and novel - Christianity, on the other hand, are nominally found everywhere in european countries, on the streets in the form of temples, in literature as references, in the very language as all sorts of phrases, etc.

3, Thanks to the not so perfect transmission of religious teachings, oriental religions are often interpreted in really odd ways, usually much more secularly than they are thought of in their native lands, like buddhism is often interpreted as atheism but with psychological elements, or hinduism/krisnaism is thought of as atheism with more weed and shrooms, or taoism is basically every highdea your 90 IQ redditor has ever had rolled into one completely nonsensical system that is an affront to what it is in the east.

4, This is probably a subset of the second point, but oriental religions allow an atheist to feel spiritually/intellectually superior to christians of his country (since he/she chose a religion that is thought of as "an alternative path" for "people in the know/intellectuals"), and it also assuages their vague sense of spiritual emptiness somewhat, that atheism naturally causes.

I'm not even religious myself but this is how I see it.

>>16529480
>buddhism and christianity are about living a moral life and punishing the wicked
lmao what a retard

>>16529530
By what means do you elevate one religion over another if evidence is a non-factor? Pure subjective feelings? The culture you were brought up in? The utility?

Because atheism is a joke that answers none of the questions raised.

>>16529573
Why would I elevate any of them?
You were born in a country and to a family, they raised you and you may or may not have been religiously educated.
If your life as a result of your education succeeds and you are happy and fulfilled, those values you were given can safely be proclaimed as true, because they allowed you to flourish.
If you end up miserable and broken, those values and beliefs are false because they led to your destruction and misery.
That is why I'm not an atheist anymore. My life was awful, and there is no truth in misery and meaningless suffering.
Some people have the opposite experience with atheism, but why should I care? I have had my own experience and I will not deny it, that would be insane.
The point of any religion is to teach man how to be happy and at peace with himself and being itself. If it doesn't accomplish that, it's trash. For me atheism was that trash, and Jesus was the cure. Many claim the opposite was true for them.

>>16529615
>A rejection of the unsatisfying answers doesn't provide the answer
It never claimed to provide the answer. In fact, most atheists will tell you the answers to those questions are simply unobtainable or are at least closed off from our current ability to inquire.

>>16529646
An imperfect truth is no truth at all, as such if the truth doesn't delight you or bring you happiness it can't be ultimately true.

>>16529640
You sound like a solipsist. You are aware that you can learn from other people's experience to avoid unpleasant experiences, right? And the formation of a worldview should be done with as much information as possible to avoid going down roads that lead to disaster, right? If you were to win the lottery, would you advise everyone you know to sell everything they own and begin buying lottery tickets because, hey, it worked for you? You seem criminally narrow in your scope of thinking

>>16529668
>You sound like a solipsist
Don't care lol
>avoid unpleasant experiences
You can't avoid the experience of being you can merely change your perspective on it to make it palatable to you. If your perspective on existence predisposes you to dislike being, the only way to change that is to change your perspective. Hence my conversion from atheism.
>And the formation of a worldview should be done with as much information as possible to avoid going down roads that lead to disaster, right?
No it should be done to avoid disaster. Whether that's achieved with little info or lots of info is circumstantial.
>You seem criminally narrow in your scope of thinking
So? Sue me lol. This makes me happy and fulfilled, why should I care about the opinion of some critic who is clearly insecure enough to be angered by my comfort?

>>16529646

>where did we come from
>u cant know lmao

>>16528999
Cuck

>>16529469
If that is just what follows, how is it dogmatic materialism? You don't have to believe in any god or the material world, or at least, I don't know why you would think you have to believe in one or the other (or both but not neither).

>>16526496
Life is a journey and sometimes you find yourself along the way.
Was a suicidal outcast alcoholic using drugs to cope, was heavily Atheist and was "wo is me". God cannot help a man who won't help himself.

>>16529646
>In fact, most atheists will tell you the answers to those questions are simply unobtainable or are at least closed off from our current ability to inquire.
That's agnostics. Although, most self-proclaimed atheists are really just agnostics.

>>16530574
What do you think a dogma is?