/lit/ - Literature

>serious authors
>gender theory

>>16467770
Your grandma.

>>16467770
Not my diary desu

I don't know of any authors, but I do find it interesting how the modern gender orthodoxy at once asserts that there aren't "guy things" or "girl things" and that men and women shouldn't be constrained by gender stereotypes, and also that if you have gendered expressions or interests beyond a certain pale it means you're actually the other gender. It reminds me of the pre-60s view that gays were "actually" women inside because they dressed and acted effeminate. Now we have a system that fundamentally asserts the same thing while somehow still claiming that guys don't have to be manly and girls don't have to be girly.

>>16467770
No it's an unsolvable tension in modern feminism and the reason that many radfems have become 'terfs'

>>16467786
yeah i know i thought about this, i mean somebody that criticizes it, not that specializes in thir non-topic
>>16467810
i think that's more about women that arent stupid enough to believe trannies are women, but still hate men (the basic root of feminism)

fuck why is my thread dead :(((((

>>16467770

>>16467951
/lit/ is a slower board, 7 replies in 40 minutes is fine. It's only meme threads that fill up right away. Then again this is pretty much a meme thread so fuck you

Literally a sexual fetish

>>16467966
not reading this kike shit nigga
>>16467976
yeah that old thread was set to look more serious and got a lot or replies but i cant find it

>>16468026
>not reading this kike shit nigga
dude she's asian. she talks of the exact contradiction you are asking about.

>>16467966
>sexologist
Wat?

>gender is a social construct
>now mutilate your penis so you can feel like a real girl

The one thing I wish trans people would explain is how they know that they should be a woman/man. How do you know what it’s like to be a woman if you’ve never been one? What does it mean to ‘feel as if you’re born in the wrong gender’?

i love how leftiests and trannies never show up in this threads because they are ashamed of how reterded their opinions are or are scared because thet would be automatically btfo
so good luck>>16468091

>>16468041
/pol/ threads don't actually care about books on the literature board, they just like shitting up the place because it's slower than /pol/. Books for this feel?

41%

>>16468091
it's kind of a matter of intuition and decision.. for a trans woman they might have been feeling a resonance with women and womanhood, a desire to become one, and eventually the decision to actually just transition. its a leap of faith

>>16468091
They don't. Most of them end up regretting transitioning and/or kill themselves. Trans shit is pushed by big pharma so doctors can get rich on expensive sex-ops and pharmaceutical companies by selling HRT meds.

>>16468134
i said SERIOUS authors about this cotradiction, not kike lefty propaganda stating the first premise.

>>16468181
>dude it's for bussiness.
no, it never is. see the obvious bigger picture anon. what is the business behind homos then? none, they do this shit as a final goal

>>16468180
So it’s like if they want to be able to fit in more with the women crowd? That’s where the major motivation comes from, you think?

>>16468194
Yep, you're right. She's a crazy lefty feminist. Now go argue that on the internet. You'll seem really smart for doing so.

>>16468213
Im not gonna read it because you are the classic faggot thet recommends books with no justifications or descriptions. in 100% of those cases it turns out
1. you didnt read the book
2. the book is trash

Zizek touches on this in his Spectator article about 'trans dogma'. But good luck parsing it:

>The Freudian solution is here rather simple: yes, psychic sexual identity is a choice, not a biological fact, but it is not a conscious choice that the subject can playfully repeat and transform. It is an unconscious choice which precedes subjective constitution and which is, as such, formative of subjectivity, which means that the change of this choice entails the radical transformation of the bearer of the choice.

>>16468252
Very cope-y answer.

>>16468213
ok i saw it's some normie "scientist" on goodreads. and a woman..... could be worse but has nothing to do with LOGIC, it's some evidence to support the natural existence of gender. heard about this before in a RT documentary

>>16468252
seems fairly straighforward to me, he's saying gender identity is rooted in subconscious structures, so whatever those are will determine the conscious, subjective self's gender. It's not a conscious choice, but it is something that the unconscious 'chooses' rather it being determined by genes(I guess through developmental events?)

The only ambiguity I see is when he says 'the change of the choice', meaning that the unconscious gender structure changes at some point? Which I think is contrary to the trans idea that they were always already the other gender.

>>16468212
its more private than that, but in a way, sure. they dont feel at home in maleness and suspect that they'll feel more at home as a woman (and they're usually right)

>>16468181
you're a retard. nobody is getting rich on trans medicine, its barely even a thing. most trans ppl were way more likely to kill themselves pre trans

>>16468320
>most trans ppl were way more likely to kill themselves pre trans
we all know this is false, so i wont even say [citation needed]

>>16467770
This is only present in neoliberal transgenderism. The original postmodernists were careful enough to form a coherent worldview incorporating trannies with homosexuals and pedophiles alongside them.
>>16468281
>Which I think is contrary to the trans idea that they were always already the other gender.
This is also neoliberal transgenderism. The trans ideology sees it as a form of essentialism.

>>16467770
If you're serious about this, you should note that social constructs can exert real influence. Fiat currency is a social construct, for instance. There's no contradiction there if you think about it.

>>16468391
In the case of the OP they explicitly refer to biological phenomena. Tranny sympathizers often point to brain states in childhood between trans men and claim that the similarity between them and biological females points to them being "born in the wrong body", another essentialist phrase.

>>16467770
>modern gender theory
What it that modern gender theory you refer to? There is not even consensus in that topic. You could always use radfem shit as a strawman though.

Seems like it's the trans issue the one that's mostly misunderstood, although most of the bs about it is just regurgitated /pol/ talking points like >>16468171 and >>16468181 and >>16468207.

Oh wait, is this >>16468194 OP ? Didn't know I was talking to a /pol/tard, sorry.

There is a bunch of references at the bottom if you want to go deeper.

https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

>>16468091
"how they know they should be a woman/man" is a very abstract way to put it. for a trans person its not a philosophical quandary, its an everyday practical interpersonal matter. and people rarely decide all at once to transition. you change your clothes, your hair, your change more and more, then you become more sure you want to keep going, then you'd get hormones. anyway tranny here ask me anything

>>16467770
What does transgender mean?
According to the APA Style guide, the term “transsexual” is largely outdated, but some people identify with it; this term should be used only for an individual who specifically claims it. While the term “transsexual” appears multiple times throughout this document, APA’s Committee on Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity is undertaking a systematic review of its use along with other terms.

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

>>16468473
What is the difference between sex and gender?
Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

Various conditions that lead to atypical development of physical sex characteristics are collectively referred to as intersex conditions.

>>16468480
Have transgender people always existed?
Transgender persons have been documented in many indigenous, Western, and Eastern cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender nonconformity may vary from culture to culture.

>>16468486
What are some categories or types of transgender people?
Many identities fall under the transgender umbrella. The term transsexual refers to people whose gender identity is different from their assigned sex. Often, transsexual people alter or wish to alter their bodies through hormones, surgery, and other means to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their gender identities. This process of transition through medical intervention is often referred to as sex or gender reassignment, but more recently is also referred to as gender affirmation. People who were assigned female, but identify and live as male and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual men or transmen (also known as female-to-male or FTM). Conversely, people who were assigned male, but identify and live as female and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual women or transwomen (also known as male-to-female or MTF). Some individuals who transition from one gender to another prefer to be referred to as a man or a woman, rather than as transgender.

People who cross-dress wear clothing that is traditionally or stereotypically worn by another gender in their culture. They vary in how completely they cross-dress, from one article of clothing to fully cross-dressing. Those who cross-dress are usually comfortable with their assigned sex and do not wish to change it. Cross-dressing is a form of gender expression and is not necessarily tied to erotic activity. Cross-dressing is not indicative of sexual orientation. (See Answers to Your Questions: For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality for more information on sexual orientation.) The degree of societal acceptance for cross-dressing varies for males and females. In some cultures, one gender may be given more latitude than another for wearing clothing associated with a different gender.

The term drag queens generally refers to men who dress as women for the purpose of entertaining others at bars, clubs, or other events. The term drag kings refers to women who dress as men for the purpose of entertaining others at bars, clubs, or other events.

Genderqueer is a term that some people use who identify their gender as falling outside the binary constructs of “male” and “female.” They may define their gender as falling somewhere on a continuum between male and female, or they may define it as wholly different from these terms. They may also request that pronouns be used to refer to them that are neither masculine nor feminine, such as “zie” instead of “he” or “she,” or “hir” instead of “his” or “her.” Some genderqueer people do not identify as transgender.

>>16468492
Other categories of transgender people include androgynous, multigendered, gender nonconforming, third gender, and two-spirit people. Exact definitions of these terms vary from person to person and may change over time, but often include a sense of blending or alternating genders. Some people who use these terms to describe themselves see traditional, binary concepts of gender as restrictive.

>>16468465
>you change your clothes, your hair, your change more and more
To be more like the thing you feel like, right? But if all the trappings of gender are a social construct, why not just be a man with long hair in a skirt?

>>16467770
It's not a contradiction. To say "gender is a social construct, femininity doesn't exist" to a woman acknowledges her victimary status relative to a man. However, women are below "transexuals" within the victimary hierarchy, so to a transexual, the opposite is affirmed. We must always respect the victim, anon. Think of Hitler.

>>16468465
I have a bunch of questions if you don't mind, just answer whichever you feel like.

1. what was the earliest age you felt some desire to be or act like a girl
2. did you participate in masculine coded activities like sports, fighting
3. what age did you first become aware of the idea of transitioning
4. when did you decide to start transitioning and why
5. how do you view yourself compared to cis girls
6. are you attracted to men or women
7. do you feel like you understand the minds of men better than most women do?
8. do you think men and women think and feel fundamentally differently from each other?

>>16468465
I think I understand this, but I'm not sure
So, is it like, you find out you enjoy the social habits of the opposite sex, then it continually spirals, and begins to feel more and more correct? Until the constant social compulsion makes the gender identity clear? Is that how a person finds out they are trans? I really genuinely don't understand trans issues, but I can't ask anyone bc then they accuse me of being a bigot if I ask them something they don't know how to answer,

>>16468504
Why are some people transgender?
There is no single explanation for why some people are transgender. The diversity of transgender expression and experiences argues against any simple or unitary explanation. Many experts believe that biological factors such as genetic influences and prenatal hormone levels, early experiences, and experiences later in adolescence or adulthood may all contribute to the development of transgender identities.

>>16467770
https://youtu.be/xW7YVW-nvxY

>>16468524
How prevalent are transgender people?
It is difficult to accurately estimate the number of transgender people, mostly because there are no population studies that accurately and completely account for the range of gender identity and gender expression.

>>16468537
What is the relationship between gender identity and sexual orientation?
Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same. Sexual orientation refers to an individual’s enduring physical, romantic, and/or emotional attraction to another person, whereas gender identity refers to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else. Transgender people may be straight, lesbian, gay, bisexual, or asexual, just as nontransgender people can be. Some recent research has shown that a change or a new exploration period in partner attraction may occur during the process of transition. However, transgender people usually remain as attached to loved ones after transition as they were before transition. Transgender people usually label their sexual orientation using their gender as a reference. For example, a transgender woman, or a person who is assigned male at birth and transitions to female, who is attracted to other women would be identified as a lesbian or gay woman. Likewise, a transgender man, or a person who is assigned female at birth and transitions to male, who is attracted to other men would be identified as a gay man.

>>16468543
How does someone know that they are transgender?
Transgender people experience their transgender identity in a variety of ways and may become aware of their transgender identity at any age. Some can trace their transgender identities and feelings back to their earliest memories. They may have vague feelings of “not fitting in” with people of their assigned sex or specific wishes to be something other than their assigned sex. Others become aware of their transgender identities or begin to explore and experience gender-nonconforming attitudes and behaviors during adolescence or much later in life. Some embrace their transgender feelings, while others struggle with feelings of shame or confusion. Those who transition later in life may have struggled to fit in adequately as their assigned sex only to later face dissatisfaction with their lives. Some transgender people, transsexuals in particular, experience intense dissatisfaction with their sex assigned at birth, physical sex characteristics, or the gender role associated with that sex. These individuals often seek gender-affirming treatments.

>>16468546
What should parents do if their child appears to be transgender or gender nonconforming?
Parents may be concerned about a child who appears to be gender-nonconforming for a variety of reasons. Some children express a great deal of distress about their assigned sex at birth or the gender roles they are expected to follow. Some children experience difficult social interactions with peers and adults because of their gender expression. Parents may become concerned when what they believed to be a “phase” does not pass. Parents of gender-nonconforming children may need to work with schools and other institutions to address their children’s particular needs and ensure their children’s safety. It is helpful to consult with mental health and medical professionals familiar with gender issues in children to decide how to best address these concerns. It is not helpful to force the child to act in a more gender-conforming way. Peer support from other parents of gender-nonconforming children may also be helpful.

>>16468552
when you flood a thread like this nobody reads the posts

>>16468552
How do transsexuals make a gender transition?
Transitioning from one gender to another is a complex process and may involve transition to a gender that is neither traditionally male nor female. People who transition often start by expressing their preferred gender in situations where they feel safe. They typically work up to living full time as members of their preferred gender by making many changes a little at a time. While there is no “right” way to transition genders, there are some common social changes transgender people experience that may involve one or more of the following: adopting the appearance of the desired sex through changes in clothing and grooming, adopting a new name, changing sex designation on identity documents (if possible), using hormone therapy treatment, and/or undergoing medical procedures that modify their body to conform with their gender identity.

Every transgender person’s process or transition differs. Because of this, many factors may determine how the individual wishes to live and express their gender identity. Finding a qualified mental health professional who is experienced in providing affirmative care for transgender people is an important first step. A qualified professional can provide guidance and referrals to other helping professionals. Connecting with other transgender people through peer support groups and transgender community organizations is also helpful.

>>16468559
Honestly, people just spread the same prejudice they find at their right-wing echo chambers, even when there is plenty of information from psychological and psychiatrical institutions written in pleb-level language. So I am assuming they are just to lazy to google it for themselves.

>>16468505
being a man, even one in a long hair and skirt, comes with a whole bunch of certain assumptions and associated behaviors. like i dont want gay men to hit on me, i dont want women to tell me that im so brave or smashing the gender binary or whatever. and both of those have happened to me a lot. what i want is to just like be using the bathroom and my mascara is messed up and another woman comes out of her stall and offers me some and i fix it and then we go our separate ways

>>16468520
generally yes i think. i mean everyone has their own experience of course but personally thats how it was for me. in college i started wearing nail polish, then makeup, then cross dressing before i started even wondering if i was trans. before i even really knew what being trans was. this was in like 2012 so before trans people had the mainstream visibility we do now. eventually i learned that hormone therapy was a thing that existed and then i started to consider whether it was right for me, and eventually i did

>>16468513
1. i used to go to the costume trunk in my preschool classroom and put on the high heels all the time
2. avoided organized sports like plague mostly. my friends were mostly boys and we'd go camping and have airsoft gun fights
3. at 21 i lived with a trans woman before she transitioned and i overheard a convo where she was coming out and explaining it to a girl she had been fucking. a year later i was homeless and crashing on her couch and she came out of the shower and i saw her tits and i realized i wanted that for myself
4. its hard to say when a transition "starts" but my freshman year at college i would get blackout drunk and wake up with like makeup on and my friend's skirt and this happened a few times and soon i just started putting the skirt on before i started drinking. then i would just wear them around and bought my own makeup and pretty soon without even realizing it i was years into a gender transition
5. gross and sad
6. im bi
7. yes
8. no, just treated differently

>>16468042
not that new of a field, pretty established

Why do we treat anorexia as a mental illness but not trannies?

>>16468651
because anorexia will kill you but transitioning will save your life (ᗜ)

>>16468657
Is the percentage up to 50% yet?

>>16467770

Hello curious friend who I am certain is genuinely interested in applying a rigorous standard of logic to gender theory. I see your contradiction and I believe it should be easy enough to resolve.

>gender is a social construct

does not imply

>femenity doesn't exist

Rather, the statement gender is a social construct is meant to dispel the anti-scientific belief that gender expression is biologically determined. Gender theorists write extensively about the concept of femininity and it's many expressions across human societies. These different expressions are what is grouped together under the term 'gender'.

Thus, as the concept of femininity is not intrinsically linked to biology that means that it is possible for an individual to feel as though their biological sex and gender are mismatched. The good news is that this is not merely a possibility, it's an observed and studied scientific fact that such people exist!

Good luck in your wonderful quest for knowledge!

>>16467966
>Weinstein
I'll get right on that

>>16467770
Ray Blanchard ?

>>16468642
Thanks for replies.

You really don't think men and women are different, just treated differently and that's what makes them act or think differently? Even though you sort of felt yourself like always were a girl in some way?

>>16468091
They want to practice the act of passive anal sodomy dressed as a plastic sex doll and being called female pronouns and names. And they have long hair. And like pink. That's what defines a woman, isn't it?

>>16468181
Search about Teva Pharmaceutical Laboratories. You will be surprised by the country where they are based and the ethnicity of the owners / founders.

This must have been “disproven” but I remember people talking about how male bodies could have female brains and that’s where trannies come from. Now it’s just retarded shit like “sje says she’s a woman so sje’s a woman.”

>>16468663
no but give it six months

>>16468688
yup. the worlds too big for essentialism. however you want to say men and women are, theres thousands of people out there doing it another way.

>>16468091
I identify more with females. simple as
It's extremely difficult to explain when you have no frame of reference.

That was the basis of Jordan Peterson's critique in court. Obviously went over their heads.

>>16468331
how would you even quantify that?
It's difficult to tell who was trans before transitioning as experiences differ. Investigating every suicide case would be impractical.

>>16468559
I'm reading them. I find them interesting and enlightening.

just read a bunch of vice articles im sure you'll figure it out

>>16468875
isn't this just a fashion statement?

>>16468687
/thread

>>16468937
>just

>>16467770
>>16468535
This, Slavoj's application of Hegelian retroactive necessity on transsexuals is probably one of the only sophisticated theoretical approaches that tackles this issue.

>>16468826
I identify with the Russell Teapot. Gaytheists BTFO.

>>16468937
ITS WHO I AM MOM

>>16467770
OP you should probably have been banned for this thread. This thread is almost blatantly off-topic, only used to discuss tranny nonsense.

>>16468447
Actually interesting

>>16469058

shut the fuck up butthurt faggot

>>16468026
>Asks for authors
>Isn't willing to read the book because it may not fit with his worldview
Intellectually dishonest.

>>16468091
by watching a truckload of anime and thinking anime girls are the ideal to draw from

>>16468588
so your identity is based on already antiquated in flux social constructs

>>16469168
>posts horseshit critical Theory propaganda
>intellectually honest
Pick one hon.

Also if being feminine has no inherently biological background, why the need to copy biological fema3 form? Why not just be a gay guy. What makes you know what parts you want to change to make you more comfortable? Just seeing things you want?

>>16467966

Fuck you. You made me read this trash

its not a contradiction

>>16467770
Julia Serano wrote a lot about gender essentialism, you should read her books, start with whipping girl, and you should also read Judith Butler

>>16467966
(((Weinstein)))

>>16467770
Just get the metaphysics of your favorite author and apply it to gender then debate it with someone else.
Nobody delves into that crap because it's just political bs

>>16469211
they don’t understand this bc they’re midwits through & through

>>16469211

It's not that trans people believe that being feminine = being a woman, they're using established social signals to convey their identity.

What the fuck does this have to do with being a gay guy retard????

>>16467807
We had a guy at our school (15 years ago) that would cross dress, some of you guys on here would have loved him. He was male, and claimed to be male, but said things like eye liner and long hair aren’t necessarily feminine. I agreed and it’s how I always understood gender.

But now he would be considered gender fluid, as he’s expressing feminine traits. It seems like it’s going backwards?

>>16467770
gender theory is not defined by a monolithic interpretation of transgenderism, the contradictions you're unpicking here are disagreements that come up all the time between different viewpoints in the field. Here's two of the most prevalent attitudes:

>social constructivists. gender is a performative, socially constructed and culturally mediated function of identity. No genders, only a composite of gendered characteristics. Believes the territory is irrelevant when we can perpetually redraw the boundaries of the map. Taken to its logical conclusion, constructivists should believe that medically transitioning is obsolete when you can simply change your pronouns and performative gestures. There's broadly three schools of thought:

>transmedicalists. believes that there is a fundamental and differentiated reality to both male and female experiences, but that reality is not dependent on biological sex, and people can be born in the wrong body. Frequently used in the media to delegitimise non-binary people for not undergoing a complete transition.

>TERFs. Masculinity and femininity are fixed, differentiated realities that are inseparable from biological sex. Believes that trans rights are weakening the rights of biological women.

>>16467770
bump I need some suggestions on this shit
I would love to buy into the whole tranny ideology but I cannot understand how people can believe that just because you say you are something that means that you are it

>>16467966
>Sexologist
>Weinstein
Nah.

>>16468561
>>16468552
>>16468546
>>16468543
>>16468537
>>16468524
>>16468504
>>16468492
>>16468486
>>16468480
>>16468473
why dint you just link to this copy pasta? faggot

>>16469880
Read JL Austen's essay on performative language, then read Judith Butler's gender trouble. Performative language is language which both describes a feature of reality while simultaneously bringing that feature of reality into being. The best example of this would be in court: By law you are innocent until proven guilty, so a judgement of guilt is both a description of your present state (IE, guilty of a crime) and an absolute determination of reality (IE, you are a criminal and will be sentenced accordingly). For many social constructivists, gender identity is brought about the same way– identifying as a gender distinct from your sex at birth is a means of describing yourself, but it also determines your reality for yourself.

>>16468432
>there is no consensus if it's not convinient to me although 99% of academia is constantly repeating the same
do you even know what is radfem? nothing i said is radfem OR a strawman.
>>16468584
>it's ok to act like a poltard when I am the spaming schizoposter
>>16468665
yes it does imply that feminity does not exist naturally and that it's wrong to use it to guide female (vagina) actions in society, that is the way you lefty retards keep saying it. But then all of a sudden it's ok to use this social construct to guide how a metally ill man has to behave.
>>16469058
cope
>>16469685
what you dont see is that 99% of people in academia and the media would argue both gender contrutivism AND transmedicalism contradiction themselves, and thats the official narrative.


Great job you all did just ignoring the explicit contradiction (you actaully believe) by saying it doesn't exist (or doing non related schizo copypaste) yet failing to prove this.

>>16469980
is this https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/courses/103/Austin.pdf the perform lang you're talking about?
And yeah I understand the social constructivist idealogy to an extent, but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to also believe an individual's thoughts on themselves when their actions and state of being are in conflict with that

You can't internally be a male or female. By this I mean as something you can identify as having gender distinction. Really this whole argument relies on accepting their new definition of gender as being something that has nothing to do with physical characteristics. But, as we know, trans "women" will get long hair, wear female clothes, talk at a higher pitch, and try to construct fake tits and vaginas. They will harbor a child inside their bodies and trans "men" will never bust inside of a woman to get her pregnant. The counter is always something like what if you have an intersex deformity or are sterile or barren. These are outliers and are not to be taken seriously. Even homosexuals are simply partaking in a fetish and their attraction has nothing to do with their innate biology. If they all want to make the freedom argument, I'll take it, but they always push it on the youth due to an insecurity of feeling normal. People hate being on the outside and are always pushing towards becoming mainstream. Once you start seeing people as agents of trying to amass power, resources, attention, you can start observing people as the bugs we all are. Including you.

>>16470036
>but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to also believe an individual's thoughts on themselves when their actions are in conflict with that
you shouldn't

>>16467805
kek

>>16468687
how though?
>>16469356
only good post itt
>>16468447
>duude lok at this 1/1000 people that have rare congenit diseases. Sex is a spectrum
no it isn't

>>16470036
That's the one. While it doesn't explicitly reference gender, it sets up the idea of the performative which judith butler draws on to develop her take on gender identity.

>I'm not sure why I'm supposed to also believe an individual's thoughts on themselves when their actions and state of being are in conflict with that
That's because its not about thought, its about language and the capacity for language to produce the reality it describes. The performative is as much a legal definition as it is a philosophical one. This is why so many trans activists want to make the right to gender self-identification into legislation– by writing it into law, they have not only described a reality where self-identification is possible, they have actively produced that reality itself, regardless of whether their actions or attitude might contradict with their self-identified gender. Contradictions would then be seen as the result of a divergence from conventional gender binaries, rather than something that needs to be resolved into one or the other.

>>16470151
I just don't see how language can produce the reality of a trans woman to be a woman to the outside spectator when they do not conform to neither the societal view of a woman nor the physiological or biological. If they conform or 'pass' both societally and physiologically (i.e. lower shoulder:hip ratio, physically weaker, shorter) I can see that performative language does in fact match up to the physical being and reinforces it, but otherwise I'm at a loss for how to possibly believe it/accept it

>>16467849
>but still hate men
I don't think they hate men. They hate themselves usually for some personal reason (most commonly being undesirable/ugly) but cope by projecting that hatred onto men. It's the same mindset communists have generally - it's all projection and envy.

>>16467807
There is a huge difference between "I want to be female" and "I like pink," gender theory acknowledges this. You are a pseud nigger who doesn't read.

>>16468180
Everyone wants to live on easy-mode for a while. What trans don't talk about is how they're like 50/50 going to blow their head off after a few years. I read something like 35% regret getting surgery and a good half of them are on suicide watch. Proper mental disorder beyond many others.

>>16468331

""
Research has found that attempted suicide rates and suicidal ideation among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) youth is significantly higher than among the general population
""

>>16468588
>being a woman is makeup and clothes
Huh.

>>16470467
>everyone wants to live on easy-mode for a while
Explain trans men

>>16470527
are you implying life is harder for a man than a woman?

>>16470559
Are you implying it isn't?

>>16470527
penis envy

>>16470566
absolutely.
As men we are statistically larger, stronger, and faster than women. The greatest philosophers, warriors, leaders, and scientists have been men. We have steered society for thousands of years by our dominance.
Just because you have some responsibilities placed on you by society that women don't have doesn't mean being a man is harder. Women have responsibilities placed on them that we don't have.
In a state of nature we are superior, and todays civilized world has been shaped and cultivated for thousands of years by men.

>>16470582
Superiority isn't easier. Women's responsibilities are like chores you give to a kid. They're not fun but not really hard to accomplish. Their only hardship is coping with their own mediocrity.

>>16470595
Your only hardship is obtaining a solid job and not being weak. Society encourages men to do various things to become physically strong, from military service to sports to weightlifting. Obtaining a solid job is also encouraged more than ever; the (american at least) education system is made to produce good employees and decent citizens. Add that to STEM being pushed like nobody's business by the corporate hegemony and it's not that hard.
Don't act like you didn't win the genetic lottery of being a man just because you personally fail at the few responsibilities laid onto you

>>16470618
Again easier and harder don't correlate do better or worse. Being a man is undeniably better than being a woman, but it's also more difficult. Being a woman is easier but also worse.

To me this is obvious if not openly discussed.

1) Men do the fucking. Men are the active principle. (hunter/sperm)
2) Women get fucked. Women are the receptive principle. (carer/egg)

3) Gay men want to get fucked
4) Gay women want to do the fucking

5) Being Gay is half commitment to the other role
6) Being Trans is "full" commitment to the other role

7) "Gender doesn't exist" is a way of saying not all women have to get fucked, if they don't want to and not all men have to do the fucking
8) But the trans case acknowledges a recognition of these ingrained gender roles which are easy to recognize

>>16470630
Okay we agree that it's better than being a woman.
However I also believe it's easier. I guess I must've not worded myself properly, but I do believe that being a man is just as easy as being a woman, especially during today's times.
So let's go back and say a man's expectation is to be be strong and financially stable. There could be more, but I guarantee most will agree with those two.
Nowadays both physical and mental strength is heavily enabled by our society. Gyms are plentiful, there's a myriad of sports organizations you can join, and it's quite benecifical for many people to join the military. I think you just have to follow the motions and you get there. Mental strength is something that society hasn't enabled as much in the past, but in current times that's going up too. Therapy as a support system is being encouraged and destigmatized more than ever. Science is giving us more and more ways to improve our mood and mental fortitude (nutrition, regular aerobic activity, meditation, etc). Well rounded strength is easier to cultivate now more than ever.
For being stable financially it's also impossibly easy. Investing in the S&P is near guaranteed to give you real returns if you leave it in long enough. Some of the highest paying jobs are for coding which has numerous free resources online to learn it. 2-yr schools offer trades that pay back marvelously (IT, welder, electrician, etc). You can check and compare prices online easily to obtain the goods you want for the lowest price. The only thing you cannot do is make stupid decisions like buying a new car you can't afford or something like trying to live in NYC without a job.

I don't think fulfilling these responsibilities as a man is harder than fulfilling the responsibilities of being a woman. I just cannot see how society doesn't enable us more than ever to reach these goals.
Please do let me know what you think is particularly hard about being a man, I'm extremely curious about the thought process of those who hold that belief.

>>16470668
>3) Gay men want to get fucked
>4) Gay women want to do the fucking
Only makes sense if you think the gay partner who plays the opposite role with their partner doesn't really like it.

>>16470695
>I don't think fulfilling these responsibilities as a man is harder than fulfilling the responsibilities of being a woman
Why not? Even if getting the opportunities to do all of the things you mentioned, working out, learning coding, working high paying jobs, all these things require a significant amount of effort. In comparison women's responsibilities are simply finding a suitable man to provide and impregnate them, and taking care of menial chores and the children. How is it equally difficult?

>>16470724
Even if getting the opportunities to do all of the things you mentioned is itself very easy*

>>16470724
most men don't work jobs where women have the luxury to just sit home and raise kids
minimum wage can barely support one person, let alone two and some children.

>>16470737
Even then women will likely take easier jobs than the men to help supplement income.

>>16470737
Also I thought financial stability was so easy? How could it be that you end up on minimum wage when it's so easy to be a high earner?

>>16468651
Gender dysphoria is treated. The treatment is transitioning and therapy. Support from family and friends is important too. Not all trans suffer gender dysphoria.

>>16470746
>Even then women will likely take easier jobs than the men to help supplement income.
which means they wont be at home and their kids will be raised by public school and everyone's life will be miserable
Also I thought financial stability was so easy?
not the other person i'm just butting into your argument.

>>16470703
They're just a little less gay. A gay man who does the fucking and a straight man have more in common with one another than either man who likes getting fucked.

Same with women. Many women are bisexual anyways because the receptive principle recieves what it may.

>>16470724
Well to start off those things don't require much effort. Working out is easy; go to the gym a few days a week for an hour each and lift stuff up and put it down. I do it 6 days a week without a problem. Learning coding is easy; you can quite literally just follow codecademy or some other resource blindly and learn to code from that. Some high paying jobs can be hard but that's like CEO shit that's rough, being a professional like an engineer, lawyer, tradesman, etc isn't too hard.

Those are no longer the expectations of a woman. Now they are told they should have similar goals to men (financial stability, strength, providing) while also having the role of women (motherhood, caretaking)
Finding a suitable man is hard nowadays because so many are weak autists with porn addictions or blind normalfags who cannot wait to be abused by their employer.
Being pregnant is also hard as fuck, you're hormones are nuts and your mood changes regularly without control; it's fucking rough. Extremely painful too to give birth, but women are biologically programmed to forget it so they'll keep reproducing.
Rearing children is extremely hard too. To raise a good kid is hard. That's why so many fail and you get these degenerates who permeate society.
A woman's responsibilities placed on them by society are things that rely on many outside factors falling into place for them. For us men it's almost entirely of our own doing. We both of course rely on systems that have been in place for hundreds of years, but remove those and women have to have the cards line up better than we do to succeed

Douglas Murray

>>16470770
Does that mean dominant straight women are a step away from lesbos?

>>16467770
Imo gender is just the social manifestation of biology. Women universally submit(ted) to men because they are physically inferior. That said, women are socially much better equip than men because it was advantageous for their survival to be conciliatory and employ the use of soft power (via social interaction) whereas men used hard power (physical violence) to get what they wanted. The basic reason for Tranny hate is their subversion of this natural dynamic.

>>16470703
>>16470770
I would add that gay men who do the fucking have probably given up on women due to social deficiencies and have made the immature decision to spend their life "with the bros" instead of learning to get along with the female race.

>>16470779
It's a spectrum but yes. A woman who dominates a man is making a woman out of the man and a man out of herself.

>>16470774
>things men do easy
>things women do hard
You can relativize anything to sound easy or hard, this means nothing.

>>16467966
Interesting
now lets see the suffix of that surname

>>16470793
so then how can one say that women have an easier life if it's not provable because it can just be relativized?

>>16467770
Just for clarity:
Being trans means you were 'born with the body that is not your true gender'. So before surgery or hormones or any of that stuff you are a trans person if you realize that your body was the wrong gender at birth?

>>16467770
Anyone who unpacks 'gender theory' can see that all the potential theories just contradict eachother and none of them are viable on their own.

>gender is a performance based on social constructs
ok, so biological women now dont possess any real womanhood and gender conformity just comes down to how other people judge you instead of from within

>you have a medical condition that is supported by science that means you're born in the wrong body

not really supported by mainstream evidence as much as people have grasped for it, if they could prove this in any way it would be huge, also leads to gatekeeping and the agp boogeyman which trannies hate.

>you are whatever gender you think you are!

cant be taken seriously politically cause you can't just larp as anything you want and expect rights and protections for it without justification.

which all leads back to the obvious and only other possible justification for gender which is biology.

>>16470770
It is also likely in these relationships both partners 'take turns'. But the departure to this other role is the purpose of the arrangement.

>>16470756
obviously it doesn’t work because they keep killing themselves

>>16470827
kek

>>16468546
>Those who transition later in life may have struggled to fit in adequately as their assigned sex only to later face dissatisfaction with their lives

lol, the blatant admittance that trannies do it because they failed as men.

>>16470832
sexual confusion is so obviously from Freudian Oedipus fuckery. If you can save someone from crippling depression, better raise your children right rather than normalizing fucked Oedipus relationships.

The problem people run into in these threads is ultimately trying to nail down consistent premises in a niche subculture/lifestyle. These things are squirmy and so this is hard to do. It's not a perfect comparison, but think how hard it is to strictly define the norms, rules, and boundaries of, say, a music scene/subculture.

Nowadays, as politics becomes increasingly theatrical and intertwined with people's lifestyles and means of 'self expression,' the contradictions that abound in daily cultural activity appear in 'political' topics as well.

As it pertains to this thread, we can see all the various confused convictions of online trans subculture (one that has a lot of teens and young people, mind you) are being put under the more rigorous analysis one might expect of a political or philosophical debate. Of course, the intersection of this subculture with serious academic writing ads another wrinkle to this whole thing.

>>16469211
Imagine asking for author recommendations but simultaneously refusing to read any book that doesn't affirm your current beliefs, because the rest is "propaganda". You are an honest to god retard and are probably just planning to skim the book for quotes you can post on message boards anyway

>>16467770
Imagine thinking trannies are anything other than mentally ill and that chopping your cock off makes you a woman.

>>16470030
>yes it does imply that feminity does not exist naturally and that it's wrong to use it to guide female (vagina) actions in society, that is the way you lefty retards keep saying it. But then all of a sudden it's ok to use this social construct to guide how a metally ill man has to behave.
To put it more simple: you feel like man, then you act and learn from masculine gender traits that exist in society. You feel like woman, then you act and learn from feminine gender traits that exist in society.

Also you keep referring to trans as "mentally ill", but transexuality is not a mental illness anon. What's your source for that adventurous claim?

>>16467770
They will never pass

>>16470898
>transexuality is not a mental illness anon.

Not that anon, but wanting to have one of your body parts cut off should definitely qualify you as having a mental illness. If someone wanted to have their arm or leg amputated, then that person would unequivocally be mentally ill. The only reason people say trannies aren't mentally ill is because they don't want to be mean and they value kindness over the truth.

>>16470582
>and todays civilized world has been shaped and cultivated for thousands of years by men.
Not a gender theorist, but again you are someone who glorifies civilization, when civilization is a regression. If you are so weak that you need civilization to take care of you like a little baby, you are not the man you think you are.

>>16470926
>Not that anon, but wanting to have one of your body parts cut off should definitely qualify you as having a mental illness.

His response will be that that's gender dysphoria, which is a mental illness; however, the notion of "feeling" like the opposite sex -- whatever "feeling" like them means, as though it can even be ascertained -- and wanting to conform your body to fit that ideal due to mental distress isn't dysphoria, as well, even without the dick cutting.

I suppose you can "feel" like the opposite sex -- again, seems nonsensical to even say -- without such mental distress, but it's probably extremely rare.

>>16470943
Civilization absolutely does not have to be a regression, though I'll concede that I do believe we've been culturally, spiritually, and socially regressing for a couple hundred years now.
I'm stating that current civilization as we know it enables us to become proper men more now than ever before
I'm no gender theorist nor have I read anything specific to gender, but these ideas are drawn from my own observations and thoughts on the state of gender due to the prevalence of gender bending freaks and their allies out there

>>16470898
>To put it more simple: you feel like man, then you act and learn from masculine gender traits that exist in society. You feel like woman, then you act and learn from feminine gender traits that exist in society.
it's the opposite retard. You acquire feminine or masculine trait from what you are surrounded by, mostly your parents. Children raised mostly by mothers can either succumb to the coddling (all lonely mothers will attempt to enjail the child to receive what they didn't receive from their husbands) or rebel against it causing feminization or masculinization.
Both male and female children are prone to this and by the time you hit puberty shit will go off the walls and you will be controlled by the Oedipus, and not the other way around.
In the end, it's not a "choice", it's a tyrannical cell by which your mind can't escape from, causing massive distress. If a certain mental state causes depression, it's pure ignorance and blatant obscurantism to not call it a mental illness.
The philosophical and linguistic definition of sex and gender is a totally different subject matter than the obvious materialization of a dysphoria between the state of the body and the want of the mind. Both of which are concrete subjects that can be envisioned and defined, thus can be materialized through procedures.
If it is an infinitely amorphous gray subjective area, the goal of which can't be envisioned. then it can't be reached and perform.

>>16470949
not sure one can feel like a woman if one has never experienced being a woman before and has no reference point to being a woman

>>16470395
”I want to be female” is not what early HRT treatment on children is generally predicated upon you ignoramus. That is either never explicitly said, or only in response to being questioned about it (at an age where they are still being taught the concept, if even that) specifically after suspicions already exist.
The parents, in turn, or teachers, will have created their suspicions based on things such as precisely wearing dresses or playing with dolls.
So it is exactly as the other anon put it. Dilate.

>>16470668
This. I was totally against gender theory until recently, when i read a book about primitive tribe, where you have some rare men who are gatherer, meaning, they don't have a bow, but a literal basket. They do not get hunting, but they go fetch fruits, honey and such, with all the other women. Obviously, since no women would fuck such a man, they are, but not always, passive homosexual. Some men who don't hunt anymore, but are still heterosexual, simply don't have sex anymore, or perhaps only with the few old, ugly women who accept to sleep with them.
So, apparently, men who don't hunt, and like to get fucked, exist, in the primitive tribe (See Pierre Clastres, Guayaki indian chronicles).
That said, the Capital is instrumentalizing the gender theory to make little boy, who are not fundamentally weak passive homosexual, want to get a sissy. So boys who would most likely end up a manly heterosexual will end up a sissy, even if it is not their true nature. Capitalism wants submissive bitches. Not angry men, which, by the way, can also be canalized through other diversion from class struggle (false flags, psy-op civil wars...). So, in bried, for the Capital, make the maximum possible amount of men sissies, and the other, divert their attention from class struggle by creating false race tension, false shock of civilization, false viral epidemic etc...

>>16467770
No one thinks femininity doesn't exist you retard. Maybe try to understand the thing you dislike first

>>16470756
Why is transitioning a treatment? We don't tell anorexics to keep getting skinny
>Not all trans suffer gender dysphoria.
Fucking how?

>>16471421
Not the anon you're responding to, but I also agree that dude is wack out of his mind.
We don't let schizo's just believe their delusions, we don't let anorexics starve themselves to death, we don't let pedophiles diddle kids. Trans people shouldn't 'transition', it clearly doesn't solve the problem (41%). The medical, psych, and spiritual community needs to develop a real therapy to get these people's lives back together because hrt clearly is not an effective solution.
Also yea "not all trans suffer gen dys" is a wack ass statement because so many say they have gender dysphoria and in the states a gen dys diagnosis is the only way to get prescribed hrt afaik.
Trans community has a bunch of different conflicting ideas because it's a shitshow of a belief due to it not having any basis in reality.

>>16467770
>you might have been born a different sex than your gender
You have already dropped the baityball

>>16471460
>(41%)
I think it's more than that now
>The medical, psych, and spiritual community needs to develop a real therapy to get these people's lives back together because hrt clearly is not an effective solution
But anon, that'd be offensive

>>16471496
Yeah I know, sadly we're in a time where anything that makes someone uncomfortable is 'wrong' and ones emotional comfort outweighs truth

>>16468320
>nobody is getting rich on trans medicine
that can't be true

>>16471460
What would you say if they brought up that despite the intinsically high suicide rate, transitioning reduces the risk of suicide?

>>16471548
Joe's Penis Removal Service—penises removed in 30 minutes or your money back.

>>16471806
well shit then okay if it works for now I'm fine with it, but a) there needs to be a better solution and b) I sure hope you pass or else you won't have a fun time

>>16471836
Agreed, transitioning strikes me as being similar to drinking to cope with depression. It helps in the short term but the underlying problem that could eventually kill you remains.

>>16467770

It's not a contradiction anymore, because they've moved away from transmedicalism (that is pejorative now) and towards the notion that a person doesn't need to experience gender dysphoria in order to be trans.

Some transgirls likes Blaire White criticize it.

>>16470898
>To put it more simple: you feel like man, then you act and learn from masculine gender traits that exist in society.
What you dont understand is leftiests keep saying we should abolish gender (because they say it's made up) and therefor masculinity and feminity shouldnt exist, but yet they say it's great when trannies want to stick to a (oposite) socially constructed made up gender... They say it's made up except when trannies apear.
Gender disphoria is a metal illness
They want to eliminate masculine men and femenine women for political purposes.

>>16470872
except that was not me nigger
>>16469168
i said SERIOUS for a reason

>>16471042
Denial cope yet again. In every single tv show and lefty book you see that you say genders are culturally made up nonsense without biological basis (they are NOT) that need to be abolished cuase muh revolution.
>>16470864
except everyone lefty in academia supports trannies. denial cope
>>16470668
>8) But the trans case acknowledges a recognition of these ingrained gender roles which are easy to recognize
so why dont leftist hate them as they perpetuate gender they supposuedly hate and say doent exist? It would also mean they hate trannies and their urges dont exist.
>>16470807
really? I already thought about this solution, but then why do they "dress like women"? gender

>>16472095
>Blaire White
wow so a tranny youtuber that pretends to be right wing or something. great intellectual

>>16469111
Kill yourself.

So like, what are these trannies going to do when they're old and bald and obviously not female?

>>16468091
We don't "feel like the other gender", because gender isn't a feeling.

All things being equal, we dislike our current phenotype and try to match our desired phenotype as much as possible. I know I'm male, I just absolutely hate looking and being treated like one, even to the point of self harm. Only started feeling this way when my body started masculinizing, and taking anti androgens has massively improved my mental health. Any other questions?

>>16470395
is there a difference if it is ubiquitous in your culture that pink is a feminine colour? you are choosing pink relative to your culture, and relative to your culture that's a feminine choice

>>16472699
>I just absolutely being treated like one
so you basically hate your gender, it's not (only?) about your body. most dont amputete their genitals either, so you are also not representative. next cope.
btw this thead is great incentive to get out of 4chan. It got flooded by tranies and brownskins i would never talk to IRL.

>>16472867
Learn to write proper English, mongoloid.

>>16472699
huh

>>16472699
do you think most trans-women are into men sexually?

>>16472964
>nooooooooooo you cant just type fast when responding to a tranny

>>16472303
>except everyone lefty in academia supports trannies. denial cope
I didnt say otherwise fucking dumbass. However, notice how rare it is for people in these threads to reference and criticize a specific academic or thinker. There's an awful lot of railing against the general idea of a 'trannie' or 'leftists' or whatever. It's real easy to take an amorphous mass of academics, cultural commentators, media personalities, random people and underdeveloped dumbass teenagers, lump them together and find contradictions between the things they say. Lots of the 'gotcha' contradictions people point to in this thread, like the one in the OP, are things that people within the Leftist Tranny Academic Community have strong disagreements about themselves

Notice how I still have not weighed in on how I feel about trannies, nor do I need to for the point I am making.

>>16468875
I’m still mad that one of the drawings of softbois in the 2019 vice article looks identical to me
>>16468937
If someone claims to have a “complex view of ‘gender’ or sexuality” it’s always a fashion statement

Why would any serious author need to write a book to disprove that nu-age armchair bs?

The reverse, you need a legion of unsophisticated trannies coming out with loads of books to even attempt to contrive and argument for it, lel.

>>16472975
I genuinely hope I'm not the first reasonable tranny you've met. I'd like to apologise on behalf of my community if that's true
>>16472999
It's about 1/3rd androphilic, 1/3rd gynephilic, and 1/3rd bisexual/asexual/other

>>16472303
The idea of femininity being constricted doesn't mean that femininity doesn't exist as a concept you retard. Do you think the ideal of femininity is completely naturally made despite it being different across cultures?

>>16473003
Why would i need to talk about someone specific if 90% of them do it? And 90% of them have those contradictions in their individual thoughts.
>>16473583
>despite it being different across cultures
barely different, retard. And that also depends on race probably. Of course modern culutre has a bigger impact on it, making it much more unnatural or exagerated. Do you not see any similarities betwen chinese and european feminity? Because leftist day it has NO BIOLOGICAL BASIS AT ALL.
And yes, i never said you state it doesnt exist as a concept, I said you negate the natural existence of it and therefor state that it's worthless and should be ignored/abolished to create le ebin equality. Keep coping dodging my words retard.

>>16473562
Hey anon, I don't say this to be mean but I geuinely hope you kill yourself soon.
I don't actually hate you but your existence is suffering and there is no cure for your condition. Humans are genetically hardwired to not like people like you. For males, you trigger the feeling that you would be a nuisance in work, war and hunts, and even betray us when push comes to shove. To females you scream genetic anomaly or some illness. And we feel like thsi because we have been selected genetically for milion of years to feel like this. You already know that the trans community is filled with some of the most toxic people in existence, and you also know that most enablers only do it tp feel hip and superiors, or because they want to manipulate you and abuse you. If you manage to continue living despite this I admire your strength, but I still can't think of it as worth it. I'm against suicide generally but it's one of the few circumstances I'd do it.
Transitioning won't help.
If you don't want to kill yourself, then try to live life taking more risks, like, consider yourself as if you were dead already, so if something bad happens when you try to something badass you won't care, and if you succeed in doing something badass, you'll feel proud

>>16472699
all of this is presuming that your desires are some instrinsic part of who you are. half of the things written on this horoscope bullshit are stuff every low status male experiences without being a tranny.

>>16474003
>Humans are genetically hardwired to not like people like you. For males, you trigger the feeling that you would be a nuisance in work, war and hunts, and even betray us when push comes to shove. To females you scream genetic anomaly or some illness.
we're not on the Savannah anymore, there is a bit more flexibility in how people are treated

>>16473883
huh?

>>16474051
Yes people are capable to cope up to a certain limit, i.e. to hide their true feelings

>>16472699
>hating puberty
>hating seeing your dad
>hating seeing yourself in a mirror
>wanting to kill yourself by a set age

someone explain to me how transgenderism is not simply a cope for getting older and missing out on youthful experiences.

>>16473883
>Why would i need to talk about someone specific if 90% of them do it? And 90% of them have those contradictions in their individual thoughts.
Youre pulling a number out of your ass to justify your continued lack of specificity and to keep constructing a self evidently foolish ideology to argue against.

Anyway, we still can now just return to my original point:
>The problem people run into in these threads is ultimately trying to nail down consistent premises in a niche subculture/lifestyle
You raised the objection that there are plenty of academics who are 'pro trans.' But since you refuse to argue against any of them specifically and instead keep attacking this vague '90%,' we're back to my original point- youre attempting to talk about what is essentially a subculture or 'scene' like it is a consistent philosophy with consistent principles- which is difficult and leads to the sort of difficulty of understanding and missing common ground we see all over this thread.

>>16474078
This is all true

>>16474102
>Youre pulling a number out of your ass
>muh source
retarded cope. information gathering has a terrible error margin and is generally MUCH worse than my intuition.
about the other, i still dont see how the majority of those trends coould ever differ from acceptance of transexualism as being born in the wrong gender. only turfs do by definition and they are a (less contradictory) minority

>>16467770
Read the silence of the lambs.

>>16467770
Gender is a set of societal norms that are often conflated with sex. Some people gravitate to roles that don't correspond to their biosex.

>>16467770

WHY DO BRAINLETS ALWAYS SEARCH FOR A METAPHYSICAL ANSWER TO SCIENTIFIC PROBLEM?

My guess is that most of them are rather pleased by the a philosophical argument whose undecisiveness leaves enough room for a less harsher self-actualization.

IN SHORT THE BRAINLET RESULTING TO SUCH COPING IS A NARCISSIST IN ADDITION TO BEEING A MIDWIT.

This is rather interesting since science teaches us that transexuals have a higher rate of Narcissistic disorder.

And who could say otherwise about someone

>Who resulted to self-mutilation just so that he can satisfy a fetish
>Who want to push his corrupted interpretation of the world on to other.

This fact is that gender disphoria is on a DNA level associated to a great number of other mutagenic issues (autism and deafness among others).

All of which
>Impair proper developpement of the Brian
>Impair proper conceptualization of the self
>Impair proper differentiation between fetish and reality.

>>16472699
>tfw I have big brow ridge
Wow, I can now say he is literally me. Send help.

>>16475992
As one can see a clear sign of abnormal mutations of the dna

>tfw think trannies are gross as fuck delusional psychos but unbothered by dudes who just want to cross dress and suck dick without pretending they aren't just perverted faggots looking for a good time

>>16476002
Honesty is respectable.

>>16472699
>shaves twice a day
>has a shadow

>>16468311
How do they know what womanhood is? And wouldn't a presumption about womanhood be misogynistic or at the least just incorrect? And if gender isn't real, then how can they possibly convert to a different gender?
And why do they kill themselves so much even in cultures that PROMOTE lgbt values?

>>16468588
>what i want is to just like be using the bathroom and my mascara is messed up and another woman comes out of her stall and offers me some and i fix it and then we go our separate ways
Holy fuck anon. That's not what women are like you idiot. Women don't give a shit about other women. Women get along with men very well and usually have noting nice to say about their female companions.
It's embarassing that, that situation is a dream - a life goal. Women don't care about you. That also does not make you a woman.

>>16472699
>parents have been worried about him
>Fees like he hasn't rested in a decade
>Doesn't have energy
>Self harm
>Asexual
These are all signs and symtpoms of a severe undiagnosed mental illness coated in bad life habits and an overall unhealthy life.
As much as you don't want help, go see someone or do acid. At least you'll either a. Kill yourself or b. Improve your life

>>16468588
holy cringe. how can you write this and not realize why people think you are delusional retards

>>16468588
you have a very shallow perception of what womanhood entails

>>16467770
Gender theory is just advanced attempt at denying reality. There's lots of babbling, but it's all centred around moat and bailey rhetoric. If you can read some foreign news you pick it up very easily.

The strong position of it is that society ultimately constructs our understanding of "gender" and ties it with sex in one way or another. However, you can argue that we construct an understanding of "cats and dog" and tie them with some biology, in the very similar fashion. Doesn't mean that cats and dogs aren't fundamentally different. It is however enough to start wedging a narrative that they indeed aren't and then trying to prove it by socially conditioning people to perceive dogs to fit "cat norms" and "prove" that dogs are identical to cats because they can catch a rodent every now and then too. Now obviously once you confront that the critical carnivora theorist that this is just sophistry he will retreat back to the claim that he only talks about the social aspects.

Now as for foreign media you can see it by the way gender is translated. In English the term was picked because it meant nothing outside of grammar. As such it was evidently part of a constructed reality(language) and fit just well. However, some languages use the same word for the taxonomic "genus" and grammatical gender. In those countries the gender theorists will use either untranslated English word, or go for something like "social sex" or "socially defined sexual characteristic"(I bet that in communist countries it would be "Foucaltist-Butlerist Sex Theory" or something ungodly like that, had they allowed it). Sociologists for instance never did the same when it came to the word "function" they never looked for word that fit such a specific niche where it couldn't be mistaken for any other "function", they never had troubles with translating the word - why is GT doing it? Well, because it's all bullshit held in place by sophistry and rhetoric alone.

>>16476279
>severe undiagnosed mental illness
I don't understand how you could read the entire image and not get that this is the point of the image in the first place. Do you know what a repressor is?

>>16476417
>repressor
Someone who fights off a pathological urge

Ex: A pedophile repressor is a pedophile that represses his urges to rape children

>>16476388
Thinking that it all started with Schopenhauer wanting to flex.

>>16476417
Yes but then you don't g around posting it and going hurr durr so I kinda feel like a tranny but like I'm not hurrdurr what is going on I'm so lost in life!
This guy goes on to say androgens improved his life and that being his desired phenotype would drastically improve is life.
But the image be posted says otherwise. It's the problem with tranny's they think that all their issues are just because they aren't a woman. Then they become me and they still feel like shit and they still post doomer repressor wojak memes and it's because they have a deeply ingrained mental illness. Instead of actually trying to search for the actual issue they go yep I'm actually a girl that's my life (could be vit D deficency, underactive thyroid, lack of iodine, hormone imbalance + thousands of other things).
I will only ever support a tranny if he or she was truly happy with life. And they truly felt they needed to be a certain sex. Because like homosexuality, I feel a very teeny tiny percent of people are wired that way.

>>16476456
It also does not help that all tranny's I know are bisexual.
I'm a homosexual and I wouldn't ever let a bisexual around children. Unless it was a female who had children. As all women are bisexual.

>>16476435
Either him or Stirner. What you have here is sort of weaponized nihilism - once categories that were mostly social indeed were destroyed, the apparatus of trying to show how artificial and stupid is some kind of divisions of a group of people into different categories has moved to things that are very definitely real - like sex. Now of course this requires more philologically advanced arguments than just "dude, laws are only there because they're enforced by force, completely arbitrary lmao, now pass the bong", but it's very similar deep down.

>>16476471
>>16476456
god I love schizo posting
also, gays are overrepresented among pedophiles, and gay men were always pro child rape until the mid nineties when the LGBT started going mainstream and the other weirdos told them to cut it out.
Trannies are retarded but fags are an actual menace.

>>16476535
The defense you will hear is that pedophilia is its own sexual preference with no gender preference within. Which means they're all Bisexual pedophiles, right?

>>16476562
>people try to erase the connection between fags and pedophilia, so that means that there is no connection at all
are you retarded?
I'm also getting a sense that english isn't your first language.

>>16475211
good job avoiding the actual point
>>16475967
schizopost
>>16476388
i dont think so, never seen this and in my language although genus and gender are the same word they just use it like that. they literally defend there is no difference at all between men and women brains
>>16476471
why? it's the other way around IMO, homosexuality is much more unnatural that bisexuality, in fact homosexuality in non existent in nature an bisexuality is
>>16476562
i think that's cope, although it migh be true that most pedos are bisexual because it's a slipery slope (i like little girls ant his is so taboo why not also like little boys?)

Absolute garbage fire of a thread

>>16476456
no gay gene anyways, all homosexuals choose to be homosexual, those that struggle with attraction to men can unironically fix it through actual conversion therapy.

>>16474734
>muh source
>retarded cope
Your mind when it can only operate on the level of internet catchphrases. I didnt ask for a source, you're just scanning for ways to shove what I say into your premade mold of 'cringe arguments.'

And again, you ignore my original point: making rigorous logical arguments against a diffuse unorganized subculture is a Sisyphean task because subcultures do not organize themselves along consistent points.

>>16468126
It's more because it's pointless to try and argue with /pol/. If you want actual answers you wouldn't ask here of all places.

>>16476334
are you a woman? i would love to know what womanhood entails

>>16477115
>are you a woman?
are you? LOL

>>16467770
Do you really need a book on this? I can just use common sense to know that cutting your cock off doesn't make you a woman

>>16468171
if they clench their jaw and body like that when held aggressively like that they're probably just larping and are not woman inside

>>16468513
>masculine coded activities like sports, fighting
what if you can master and execute the techniques of those sports with elegance but dislike the gritty aspect of going head to head with another person
is that masculine or feminine?

>>16469980
So they deny objective reality to live in a fantasy world akin to schizos and other mentally ill people?

>>16475967
Only real answer ITT. I'm thinking this board is filled with people who read philosophy and literature and avoid science like a tranny avoids the truth

>how do they know
Usually they've spent a lot of time with fellow liberasts on a discussion forum or chat channel of some kind and have been steadily indoctrinated into the idea along with a slew of other ones usually pertaining to other people's children.

>>16477534
Science is gay

>>16477611
>Science is gay

IE: comfortable rationalization, is preferable to uncomfortable rational understanding.

IE the individual manifests the desire to make his subjective and emotional reality the defacto reality.

IE the individuals wants to force the world to manifest respect towards his emotions.

Therefore we are confronted with a narcissistic fantasy in which the individual believes he deserves to be the one in control of the accepted reality.

Also, narcissistic disorders are overrepresented among transexuals which explains their fear of science.

>>16470789
>The basic reason for Tranny hate is their subversion of this natural dynamic.
Nah it's just that people have a natural aversion to the mentally ill, particularly when it has an outward tell so people know to distance themselves from the labile dangers.

>>16476430
don't forget just simple rape repressors. It's funny when people try to tell you that repression is bad

>>16471002
>and like to get fucked
Sounds very prison gay.
Too weak to be of use otherwise, get fucked for protection/food.

Remember to sage when you reply so we can get rid of this garbage thread.

>>16470789
I wonder what kind of story freaks like these tell themselves in order to make their life bearable

>>16477964
My guess is that you were raised around degenerate assholes, and you don't know any better.
There's many people and communities that aren't filled with hateful morons.

Educational level is highly correlated with acceptance of gay rights. Also the anti-trans movement in modern American conservativism is a proxy attack on LGBTQ+ people as a whole, because attacking gay people is extremely unpopular, and so the right chose a smaller minority to attack - as they always do. Attacking the oppressed is kind of what defines the right-wing.

>>16478099
The people that spend more time being told to accept a thing is more likely to accept a thing. What a shocker.

>>16478110
Anti-intellectualism belongs in /pol/

>>16478143
There was literally nothing anti-intellectual about that post. You're an idiot.

>>16478099
>Also the anti-trans movement in modern American conservativism is a proxy attack on LGBTQ+ people as a whole, because attacking gay people is extremely unpopular, and so the right chose a smaller minority to attack - as they always do. Attacking the oppressed is kind of what defines the right-wing.

You fail to understand that there is a huge differance between allowing gay marrige and not beeing revulsed by people butchering their genitalia to conform with their delusions.

>In the first case most people will allow it out of indifference and goup think

>In the second any human will insinctively recognize the deeply pathological nature of transexuality and will be revulted by it.

>>16478143
Who put a hijab on that ape?

>>16469356
how do guenon's metaphysics apply to trannies

trans women are the platonic form of a female

>>16468513
1. what was the earliest age you felt some desire to be or act like a girl
>Around kindergarten
2. did you participate in masculine coded activities like sports, fighting
>I never got into fights and wasn't ever into contact sports. Really into long distance running and other solitary stuff. Not really into feminine coded stuff at all
3. what age did you first become aware of the idea of transitioning
>19
4. when did you decide to start transitioning and why
>24. Was disowned by my parents for reasons unrelated to being trans, figured I'd give it a try in case I regretted it later
5. how do you view yourself compared to cis girls
>Qualitatively different. Don't try to think about them at all
6. are you attracted to men or women
>I'm only attracted to other trans people
7. do you feel like you understand the minds of men better than most women do?
>Yeah, both are utter shit, men more so tho
8. do you think men and women think and feel fundamentally differently from each other?
>Definitely. Females are human, and males are barely conscious, almost entirely driven by hormones

>>16478729
you are a man though

>>16470926
not all trannies get their dick cut

>>16472672
they just look like other old women because old women look rough too due to menopause
at that point they've had decades of female hormone effects on their body

Bisexual people are lecherous. I've never met a single bi person that has the urge to coom in everything that moves. I'm sure this isn't the case for every bisexual person.
When people talk about gays and how overly sexual they are. They are usually also into females as well. Every gay I've spoke to is always a certain percentage gay and a certain percentage straight. If they are.more gay the coin the term 'gay.' Which makes it impossible to find someone decent.
That said, straight men who are turned on by traps generally are attracted to lolis. And I don't give a shit about your opinion on whether lolis are pedo or not but they are depictions of young girls and that makes you more of a pedo than me.
I would never have sex with a woman period. I would never have sex with a man who were 18 years or older. I would never have sex outside of a relationship with any man.
Yet bisexual psychos go around raping children giving me a bad rap. The modern day bisexual is the true creep.

>>16476687
>he thinks there is a single 'gay gene'

>>16476535
>schizo posting
Faggot
However, I do agree that if you identify as part of the LGBT community you have a higher chance of being a pedo. People who attend pride and are prideful of their sexuality are always hypersexual meaning they would probably have sex with a child.

>>16476670
>homosexuality in non existent in nature and bisexuality is
This isn't true. Animals can go their whole life behaving as a homosexual.

>>16480323
>That said, straight men who are turned on by traps generally are attracted to lolis. And I don't give a shit about your opinion on whether lolis are pedo or not but they are depictions of young girls and that makes you more of a pedo than me.
I'm this but I prefer the lolis to be traps too.

>>16480404
This is why the hate for homosexuals here does not bother me because I know I'm not as deranged or lustful as the average person on this website.
Stop looking at porn.

>>16480454
I can't.

>>16468588
Dear God. I was expecting something that would make me question my beliefs. What you call being woman-like is a fetish. You are simply performing a particular role defined by your shallow view of womanhood. People like you transformed gender roles in commodities traded daily in identity markets. We can even see capitalistic hyper-iteration in regards to gender identity production/consumption.

>>16480522
Yes you can. At least limit it to once a week and watch some normal straight porn. If you are under the age of 20 you'll most likely grow out of your fetishes

>>16480617
> At least limit it to once a week
My longest time was 3 days but I can try.
>and watch some normal straight porn.
Boring.
>If you are under the age of 20 you'll most likely grow out of your fetishes
I'm 21 and had most of my fetishes at a very young age.

>>16467770
social constructs exist, the fact they are constructed doesn't make them unreal or unimportant

>>16478729
>Definitely. Females are human, and males are barely conscious, almost entirely driven by hormones
kek, retard

>>16468134
> books for this feel
The Plague by Albert Camus.

people used to always bully me for some of my feminine characteristics and i was always mistaken as a girl in public until around the 6th grade.
i was bullied by a gay guy and called a hermaphrodite (this was in elementary school so i had to go home and look up what it meant)
as a little child i liked "feminine things" and played with barbies and shiet, liked makeup and stuffz, put on skirts for fun

but all of these were just "play" for me
i am so glad that i wasn't born in the 2010s, otherwise public school would try to astroturf me into thinking I'm trans because i did some things that society deemed to be feminine.
all people have a mix of masculine and feminine qualities, no one fits the bill for all of them. if you think you're a girl just because you like "girl things" you're just a dumb faggot.

>>16467966
Lol Weinstein

>>16467770
>Is it any SERIOUS authors that talk about the contradiction in the modern gender theory wich goes like this?
Yes. Pic related will clear it up.

>>16481433
>it's a vapid centrist boomer self-help book

>>16468264
Midwit ;)

>>16481463
It has nothing to do with self help. It's about how liberals/sjws have infested the academia system with irrational thought(gender as a social countstruc/ect).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohGf9k5MJuE
Here is a snippet of his work, which relates to what OP was asking for.