/lit/ - Literature

BASED continuation of incel threads.
Reminder that incels will inherit the earth. Scientific studies show that all you thots and whores WILL become our gfs, whether through will or force.

>>16436214
HE LITERALLY HAD SEX IN THAT STORY YOU FUCKING RETARD HE BONED HER HE FUCKING HAD SEX WITH HER

>>16436237
You mean he committed statutory rape on her.

>>16436237
shut up incel

thoughts on this image lads?

I liked this post
>Despite your best attempts to cope, your lack of action is rooted in a fear of failure/rejection. If you wanted sex and knew every girl would have sex with you if approached, you wouldn't actively do nothing.

>Inb4 "volcels" try to claim they're virgins because they're intellectually superior and have overcome primitive desires for sex.

>>16436279
All peepees must die.

>>16436311
Its a dumb post. Incel = involuntarily celibate. End of.
It's literally impossible to lie about being a volcel. If you still believe you have options, your celibacy is definitely not involuntary.
Its possible however to lie about being an incel. Many people havent tried enough things before declaring themselves an incel.

>>16436214
>Cont.
buy why? It's not even /lit/ isn't one bump-locked thread enough

I will clean my room, read the Greeks, and send job applications tomorrow

To the anon in the last thread:
https://nplusonemag.com/issue-35/fiction-drama/the-feminist/
This is a link to The Feminist short story.

>>16435848
> Other than that, there is no such thing as "trying harder". Anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

Not true because an incels biggest indulgence is being reclusive and not making small talk with people and making work friends, etc
People used to call this shy but sometimes it’s called social anxiety now
It’s literally just not working very hard

Also /lit/ has an incel general. Kek, I hope everyone replying to this thread, including me gets banned.

>>16436348
>It's literally impossible to lie about being a volcel. If you still believe you have options, your celibacy is definitely not involuntary.

This is the kind of haphazard language shit we're dealing with.

Celibacy is intentional. It doesn't even make sense to be "involuntarily" celibate since it's... done on purpose. "Volcel" is what celibacy is.

But, we live in an age of meme-wordage where misuse becomes common and it makes me want to mail bombs -- you'd get one with a personalized letter.

>>16436475
thanks anon

>>16436612
The real issue is that America still holds on to prudish concepts that prevent us from becoming chads. 2020 American laws are literally more strict on prostitution than the fucking Catholic Church was in the 1500s.

>>16436612
What would the letter consist of?

>>16437283
Fucking prostitutes might help you to lose celibacy, but it doesn't make you a chad. Being confident, resilient and proactive makes you a chad.

Might be an "incel" dont really care though

Im practically a baby at 20
What I really want in life is a to be with someone who I can be totally honest with, someone who will listen to my "incel" fantasies, my extremism, my pain, my happiness and my sorrow, someone who will listen to everything I have to say and when I'm done wont tell me that everything is okay (cause it most certainly isn't) but that it doesn't matter in this moment and that we (we is important) can try to deal with it later.
I want someone who I feel like I don't have to lie to, despite that being the norm for the past 20 years of my life
I want someone who will really tolerate all the darkness all the brightness and everything in between that resides inside of me
I have a loving family (mother, father, sister), a psychologist (who I spend my sessions laughing with as a facade) I have friends I probably love in a non-homosexual manner, but for some reason or the other I dont fully reveal myself to, I often show them different sides of my personality but no one clearly sees that inside me lives a narcisstitc idealistic horny 12 year old autist

I want someone who I wont feel ashamed telling that all I've ever wanted in life was a pure brown anime tomboy

Is what I'm looking for love?

I still have an extreme kneejerk reaction of anger and disgust anytime I hear "incel" discussed. On social media, in mainstream media like OP, most of the time on 4chan these days, or from normies irl. It nearly always comes from someone without any awareness or sympathy for internet culture which is bad enough, but I think it's just the most extreme example of something from the internet being decontextualized and blown out of proportion by mainstream culture and its anxieties about the world.

>>16438106
You're looking for a mother to coddle you. As you said
>Im practically a baby
Maybe endure hardships in your life? You sound like a trust fund kid.

>>16436214
>YOU DON'T HAVE SEX YOU'RE AN INCEL
>YOU HAD SEX YOU'RE A RAPIST
>YOU LOOKED AT A CHILD YOU'RE A PEDO
>YOU'RE SINGLE YOU'RE GAY
>YOU HAVE A GF SHE'S TOO GOOD FOR YOU
dude just stop shaming men and forcing us to have sex and then punishing us for sexual behaviour. no matter what you fucking do you're doing something wrong

>>16438200
>>Im practically a baby

Shit taht came out wrong, what I meant by that was somethign more like saying that at 20 im still pretty young and havent really experienced
much of anything, and also a commentary on how it feels like everyone my age hasnt changed much since they first arrived at high school

>Maybe endure hardships in your life? You sound like a trust fund kid.

Not in the literal snse but I guess you could say I was one, atleast for the first 14 years of my life, but then my parents split and my family ended up in some type of rich "poverty", having some physical assets but not cash, so much so that there were days in which I struggled to feed myself

>>16438544
Everyone has experienced everything there is to experience by 20. They've had sex, they've had a job. They've moved out.
Two thousand years ago or even a thousand years ago there wouldn't be a difference. By 20 everyone had experienced those things. Except for incels today.

>>16438106
I'm a pua, and got to say you have fair expectations, at least that's how healthy relationships should work. However, don't expect it to work that way from the beginning, relationships are and should be shallow in the beginning and you need to slowly build it up to higher levels of mutual trust and empathy.

bros I just want gf

>>16436405
DO IT TODAY OR I WILL FIND YOU LITTLE FUCKER AND I MURDER YOUR MOTHER IN HER SLEEP IF YOU DON'T

>>16438335
>caring about what others say
what are you, a woman?

>>16436311
>>Despite your best attempts to cope, your lack of action is rooted in a fear of failure/rejection. If you wanted sex and knew every girl would have sex with you if approached, you wouldn't actively do nothing.
Few guys in history and today had this. The difference between today and the past is the rest of us.

>>16436237
Incel has become a mindset, rather that a status.
I fuck plenty and I get called an incel whenever I say any negative at all about women.
On Reddit, if you say no women will have sex with, but you word it in a way that suggests you have no resentment about it, people will pile in to reassure you that you're not an incel.
It's nonsense anyway.
Technically I'm an incel right now because I'd like my girlfriend to be sitting on my dick, but she doesn't get out of school until 3pm.

>>16436214
>The Feminist
author? never heard of it.

)>>16440134
https://nplusonemag.com/issue-35/fiction-drama/the-feminist/

>>16436214
>I'll add Cat Person to those literary events as well.
Cat Person was weird for me. I heard it was a big deal, read it before I read any commentary, and enjoyed it. I thought there was an interesting display of both sides and how people can view the same event(s) and both view themselves as victims, or at least the one "wronged."
Then I read the articles, and it turns out the zeitgeist decided Cat Person was a morality play about an Evil Man and a Good Woman who was hurt. It was very disheartening. I read more literary value into the story than it seemed anyone else was willing to, either the critics or the author.

I don't know how deep your feelings for someone you sexually pursue should be. I'm 20, I find most girls my age attractive. A couple actively start conversations with me, so I guess they're interested. They're basically pleasant, I find them physically attractive, but I don't really feel anything romantic for either of them.
I'm a sperg with no social life, and I can't really gauge what level of attraction it's appropriate and moral to act on. In my animu people are in love before becoming a couple.

>>16440199
The author wrote a collection of short stories (which I read). She was definitely being intentionally nuanced.
Maybe she played it down for the woke crowd. I get it. She wouldn't have gotten that book published if she wasn't playing into it.

>>16440201
If your feelings are strong enough to warrant it, they'll carry you along.
I like Asian women and I don't live in an Asian country, so it took me an embarrasingly long time to realise this.
I got mildly into PUA and forced myself to talk to women thought I found attractive, but it always felt like work. When I started being around women I found intrinsically attractive, it felt like more of an effort not to try to talk to them

>>16440220
Shit, I'd believe she's smarter and more savvy than she lets on, it's a good story. Doesn't change the fact that I'm still incredibly disappointed in the industry at large (publishers, critics, normal readers) for the shitty "Cat Person is Everything!" thinkpieces and articles. Everyone reacting to the story wasn't reacting to a piece of literature, they were acting like it was a story they were being told by one of their friends about a shitty guy or something. It's like they can't comprehend fiction.

>>16436475
>>16440144
Damn, this shit is basically the same as Cat Person, in that I'm reading more into it than anyone seems to give it credit for. All the reactions I've seen are along the lines of "yes, this is what men are like, incels are evil, etc." But when I read it, I thought it was a very compelling narrative about hypocrisies in society and slow processes of radicalization when you think you're "good." But again, people read the story like it was a piece of news and a not a piece of fiction.

>was frustrated about being a khv
>fucked a hooker
>was ok, nothing to write home about
>not frustrated anymore
>not interested in sex anymore
>not interested in women anymore
>have never felt so good and focused than during the past few months, started reading again, started making plans for the future, I'm hopeful and excited for what's to come
Am I still an incel or just some kind of broken person?

>>16440324
we're all broken dude. only kids are unbroken

>>16440324
Its a good start and in this cultural climate I do not blame you for it. Ride out the inner peace while it lasts, but chances are you'll begin to long for authentic love and relations with women. The unfortunate answer is get fit/lit/soc and become a man who women can love authentically. I also don't want women in my life at the moment but thats because I am very focused on my career and personal goals. I have no doubt I'll long for a woman and love again soon. Hiding from life is ultimately a cope, accept your longings when they come, they are natural and proper.

>>16439970
i never used to care, but after a while it has started to make me pretty angry because they're all stupid and wrong

>>16440134
zoinks

>>16440348
>but chances are you'll begin to long for authentic love and relations with women.
Will I necessarily?
Frankly the more I go on the more I find women (and people in general, but especially women) insufferable and tiresome. I haven't had a single friend in years and it's never bothered me, I suspect it'll be the same with women. I hope so at least.
I might have the 'tism though which would explain my unusual propensity for solitude.

>>16440324
Nah, this is honestly why I think prostitution is a good thing.
Men are more interested in sex than they are in women in general. If men can get sex easily, it removes a lot of the anxiety around interactions with woman.
Every woman has a vagina that can make a dick feel good. There are probably very few women that an individual man genuinely likes on a romantic level and prostitution would allow you to focus wholeheartedly on the latter group when you encounter them.

what does this have to do with literature?

>>16440380
Yeah, I agree. I was originally reluctant because of the stigma associated with prostitution, especially when it's used as a "last resort", but in the end it doesn't even matter.

>>16440199
I've posted this before, but it is worth noting IMO that the author of Cat Person previously wrote horror fiction, before trying to write a modern romance story warts and all. This is interesting because modern romance and gender relations in general is a perfect topic to be discussed through the lens of horror. Incels, awkward sex (caused by online porn, etc), the popularity of S&M (choking, etc), wondering whether this guy from the internet is going to kill you, are all worthy of inclusion in a horror story, I mean the term "ghosting" is spooky enough without having to explain what it means. Really enjoyed Cat Person and The Feminist for their analysis of mainstream pop culture issues.

>>16440379
Maybe it won't, but don't be surprised if it does. And as for Autism, I don't believe in modern psychology. If you're familiar with Myers Briggs, and especially its more esoteric forms, chances are you have a more introverted and technical minded personality that requires more time to properly develop socially. I myself am an INTP, one of the 'autistic' types in that they tend to be socially awkward when young, but my life experiences have made me more than capable socially. I'm 27 and have traveled and worked in lots a socially intense fields, for reference. I'd tell you its painful to develop socially but very doable if you make the effort, and it will give you a more fulfilling life in the long term.
That being said I resonate with your boredom with most people; I spend my time reading philosophy and thinking about how to fix the social and political problems of the world. Most of the time I'm engaging with others its an act of mirroring their needs and interests, and its generally driven by pragmatic needs. But neither you, nor I, nor the vast majority of incels are incapable of integrating with the rest of the social world. Its simply a cross to bear that we are somewhat unique and consequently have to withold our own identities when engaging with others.

This all hinges on what you want from life- I want success and love and sex, so I've forced myself to suffer and develop. If you authentically find contentment being alone and isolated in your mind, then go for it, but be careful you aren't lying to yourself. Few humans genuinely don't want at least a romantic partner.

>>16436612
>Celibacy is intentional
Heh yeah....

>>16440442
>I don't believe in modern psychology
Is autism really all that modern as a concept?
I'm not sure about the validity of myers briggs, when you mention its "more esoteric forms" are you referring to the original theory in Jung's writings?
>a more introverted and technical minded personality
According to the model I'd be more of a feeling type than a thinking type actually, though I don't think this precludes discomfort in social situations (which seems to me like it'd be more dependent on the introversion/extraversion axis than anything else)
Which specific fields have you worked in if you don't mind saying? What gave you the drive to travel and work on those aspects of yourself?
>to develop socially
To be honest I don't care all that much. Social situations can be uncomfortable, but I've learned to navigate them as well, and I don't suffer from my lack of social life. Maybe you're right about the fulfillment aspect, I can't say since I haven't really tried. But doesn't fulfillment essentially come from within?
>a cross to bear
It can be interpreted like this, but as a whole I don't think it's all that bad. I don't envy "normal people" as it seems to me that it's possible to simply withdraw from environments that don't fit your idiosyncrasies and construct your own space where you're able to thrive.
You're completely right in that it should be a genuine choice and not a coping mechanism though. Unfortunately many people who fall into the latter category try to convince themselves that they belong to the former (MGTOW and such communities come to mind)

>>16440425
That makes sense. A lot of the stories in her collection blended the themes.
There was one I particularly liked about a man who started to achieve success with women later in his life, but carried the resentment of the rejection from his youth (which I think it quite a common phenomenon).
It ended with a bunch of the women he'd pumped and dumped banding together as a coven to curse him or something.

>>16440519
>>16440519
Autism as an extreme disease is real, but our new spectrum thinking is wrong in that it categorizes normal variations of personality as pathological. I.e. there are a lot of people who wrote articles saying "I was autistic for 43 years and didn't know it." Meanwhile they have a good job, a wife and kids. Aka autism, whatever it is, can't be that bad. Essentially these people are a bit idiosyncratic but in no way pathological, and often these idiosyncratic types of people- in myers briggs terminology, IN's, or introverted intuitives (intp, intj, infj, infp) are hugely overrepresented in genius intellects, great writers, great theorists etc. So you're right, the thinking dimension is not as important as introversion/extroversion and intuition/sensing. Essentially, IN's have huge internal landscapes made of theoretical information, meaning they create novel worldviews which make them idiosyncratic / socially a bit weird, often, but they simultaneously have the ability to create useful theories/ have exceptional long term strategic planning skills. (depending on type- inxp's tend to have greater theory building abilities, inxj's tend to have greater long term strategic abilities.)

I worked in summer and after school camps for 4 years, was a Barista, and taught English to 3-17 year olds in China for a year. So lots of interaction with children, parents, and coworkers. It was really hard especially in the beginning but I wouldn't trade it. The drive came from a huge sense of inadequacy, my older brother was a charismatic sports captain in school and my parents liked him much more than me, and he effectively manipulated them with his charm. No hard feelings anymore, but my inadequacy next to him really drove me to succeed socially and become someone other people wanted.

I don't think fulfillment comes only from within for the vast majority. Maybe if you forsake possessions and go meditate for a decade or two. For most people happiness and fulfillment are unlocked by living in accordance with human nature, essentially filling the voids within our nature, which generally are sex, romance, respect, some material possessions, a sense of belonging etc. Which means most of us are best off meeting our needs and learning how to draw the line when they become excessive. Pure asceticism is largely a cope and excuse in most people.
Anyway man my only concern is your happiness, I hope you find it. Its a bitch of a world these days.

>>16440108
Underrated pedopost

>>16440605
>spectrum thinking is wrong
I'm inclined to agree when it comes to the "high functioning" cases where the definitions are muddled and the alleged symptoms are pretty much the same as how the psychology community describes people with high intellect.
>introverted intuitives
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the original theory (the one Jung wrote about) describe only eight types? What does the MBTI model add that warrants the subdivision of these eight types into sixteen?
> taught English to 3-17 year olds in China for a year.
How was it?
So you were driven to action by a feeling that you "weren't enough" so to speak, how are you now regarding those feelings?

>happiness and fulfillment are unlocked by living in accordance with human nature
But doesn't that easily lead to overindulgence in the things we deem necessary to acquire in order to fill our inner void?
>Pure ascetisicm
Where do you draw the line between a minimalistic approach to life and true asceticism?
>Anyway man my only concern is your happiness
I appreciate the kind words anon, I wish for you to find fulfillment and satisfaction as well.

Incels should just get to marry the pornstars and camgirls of the world. That way the used up experienced women get men then can train up.

>>16440799
Jung had one type for each cognitive function.
Feeling, thinking, intuition, sensing
Introverted thinking (Ti)
Extroverted thinking (Te)
Introverted feeling (Fi)
Extroverted feeling (Fe)
Introverted sensing (Si)
Extroverted sensing (Se)
Introverted Intuition (Ni)
Extroverted Intuition (Ne)

He only thought that a person's primary cognitive function was important. The current models split it in 2 because they think that the 3 other cognitive functions we use are important. So instead of just having the Introverted thinker (Ti), we have the INTP and ISTP, who are (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe) and (Ti, Se, Ni, Fe) respectively. The distinction here is important; all both types have (Ti) as their strongest function and (Fe) as their weakest function- which means both are analytical and generally averse to social consensus and catering to the feelings of others. But the distinction in their other two functions- (Ne, Si) in the INTP and (Se, Ni) in the ISTP make them very different people. INTPs tend to construct theoretical models in their head and are archetypically associated with Philosophers and theorists. ISTPs tend to rapidly and intuitively understand the immediate physical environment, making them adept at sports, mechanical understanding viz a viz building complex physical objects etc. So their shared Introverted thinking (Ti) makes both types excellent at understanding cause and effect and the interconnective harmony that makes a system run efficiently. Their different ways of processing information- (Ne) in the INTP and (Se) in the ISTP- make them adept at manipulating different systems; theoretical systems and physical systems, respectively.
The subdivision is useful because of these large differences in the general behavior and fields of interest/ skillsets of the two types. Both Introverted thinkers, but oriented towards very different (Ti) systems.

China was a great experience, though I'd never want to live there. Kinda cliche, I made some friends, hated the job, loved seeing a new country, seeing another culture shed light on my own etc.

As for my inadequacies, they're largely gone now. Which I kind of miss, seeing as they drove me to read so much philosophy. I'm writing a philosophy book now, moreso driven by my frustration and sadness at how ignorant my society is today.

Overindulgence is a constant threat, but that's where virtue comes in. Ideally.

Minimalism is authentic. Asceticism is driven by a hatred of the world, or fear of it, etc. But its rare for one to authentically desire the minimalism of a hermit.

What about you? You strike me as an INFJ. They often ask good questions and don't talk much about themselves. I'd recommend getting into MBTI and eventually transition to CognitivePersonalityTheory. Honestly, you can skip MBTI, learn the cognitive functions through google and youtube, and go straight to CognitivePersonalityTheory, if you were so inclined.

>>16440134
Fuck you

>>16441182
People who describe themselves in these terms are usually literal redditors and complete faggots
You can’t give yourself a personality test because you don’t allow your answers to account for your own faggotry

>>16441062
i wouldn't touch one with a barge pole, i don't even care if i die alone

>>16441263
The personality tests are faggotry and you just need to introspect honestly to know what you are.

>>16441263
I have wondered whether there are any practical benefits to the system because a lot of people start over identifying with their type. Ideally one would use it as a way to understand their strengths and weaknesses, and then go about improving their weaknesses and capitalizing on their strengths. And another general benefit is that it has helped me understand why some people don't understand each other and have difficulty communicating with each other. I don't know man, its complicated and you shouldn't take it too seriously but there seem to be a lot of benefits. Individuals in our culture are having a huge issue self-actualizing, largely because there is no structure beyond "anyone can do anything." Having a deep understanding of one's individual personality and its limits may help people direct their energies in positive directions. I see MBTI and its rapidly developing offshoots as the basis for a future worldview, or at perhaps it will be a part of the religion that comes after this kali yuga. Don't know. Regardless, suck my cock faggot.

>>16441330
INTPs are soulless

incurable sexual diseases when

>>16441337
INTPs create systems to help the collective because they don't like people but are sensitive to emotional disharmony. So they sequester themselves away and create good systems so they can meet peoples emotional needs without actually meeting them. I tend to appear pretty blah if I don't feel comfortable with you, but when I do I'm very animated and flippant. I wouldn't say soulless, but truth be told I'm not very emotionally affected by objective knowledge, and I can totally see how Robespierre, a theoretical INTP, could rationally justify the Terror if it was what he believed would lead to the greater good. So, yes, kind of soulless towards individuals. But very, very caught up with creating good social systems. Bit paradoxical, but not really.
Do you know any INTPs? What's your type?

>>16441182
Thanks for the detailed explanation. It's strange that Jung would overlook those subtleties and instead decide to only pay attention to the primary function. Especially since he was very mindful of the symbolism of numbers and saw 16 as a meaningful one IIRC.

>I'd never want to live there
China looks interesting because of the sheer scale which seems like it would completely crush individuality. Which parts of the culture struck you particularly? Are the memes about populace's general lack of empathy true or overblown?

>I'm writing a philosophy book now
Focusing on one subject in particular?

>that's where virtue comes in
So, Epicureanism?
>Minimalism is authentic
Just a matter of personal perception then? The minimalist will be sincere in his desire for a more simple life, while the ascetic will rid himself of superflous elements in order to avoid confronting the world?

>You strike me as an INFJ
What are the main differences with the INFP? I saw some basic explanations by googling it, but I like the way you explained the differences between the ITP types so I'm thinking your take will be interesting.
>getting into MBTI
Yeah, I dabbled a bit and I was thinking of diving straight into Jung's book on the subject instead of relying on internet resources.

>>16441376
I was just being a dick but good insight, I would agree. I know a few, my brother is one. I'm INFP, the worst type.

>>16441380
Functions wasn't what Jung was most interested in, he spent more time developing other ideas.

>>16441417
Didn't he write a whole book on functions?

I don't like how people are taking love and passion out of sex, they treat it like a commodity.

>>16441440
People always have they just don't have to hide it now. I agree but most people will always be like this

>>16441365
>I can't get laid because of muh degeneracy
Maybe you wouldn't be """incel""" if you stopped being such a conservative buzzkill.

>>16441463
i just read a story about a girl who sucked off some african and got incurable std. this could be africans gift to white man since we helped so much in the past. i hope they won't find a cure for this one. incel out.

>>16441463
this. you're killin the mood broooooo

>>16437283
anon...most girls today have an onlyfans. It is only a very specific type of prostitution that isn’t yet already normalized at every level of our society

>>16441380
I'd say Jung fell short because he really was a pioneer in the subject. Even to create the cognitive function as he did was an amazing achievement- though he was influenced by past psychological theory, like the humours.

China: I was struck by how similar to the U.S. it was (I was in Beijing). America propaganda had me thinking we were some shining city on the hill and other countries weren't close to our level of development. On the contrary, people had nice cars, it was safer than any American city I've been in, it had excellent public transport. People did lack compassion for animals, but not in a heinous way. The subway was actually lined all over with animal rights posters for about 6 months. The people were nice, but a bit duplicitous, very willing to trick or overcharge foreigners who didn't know Chinese. The women were more chaste. The Chinese are far more respectful and hardworking than the Americans I worked with. One thing that blew me away is that while chinese are a bit more tribal than we are, they will criticize the government (if you get to know them). They aren't robotic followers as is implied in the U.S.

I'm an Epicurean in a sense, but I don't think its practical because of geopolitics and the fallen nature of man. Maybe one day, but we have a lot of practical and political issues to deal with first.

>Just a matter of personal perception then? The minimalist will be sincere in his desire for a more simple life, while the ascetic will rid himself of superflous elements in order to avoid confronting the world?

Yeah that's how I see it at least. What one does is often less important than whether what one does is in alignment with their authentic nature/ desires.

As for INFP vs. INFJ, they do mistype as each other often. That being said they're quite different.

INFPs are (Fi, Ne, Si, Te). Fi is their "values," and what my research has led me to believe is this is the nuances of how one feels and what one desires. Essentially, Fi users are attuned to their own wants and desires to a high degree, but in a very abstract sense. They are not empathetic- meaning they don't necessary feel bad if someone else feels bad, they don't absorb their emotions involuntarily, which Fe does- instead they create models of what it is to be a 'being that values,' which means that if they themselves have experienced something- say being bullied- they are very capable of creating sympathetic models of what it feels like to be bullied. Meaning they, when seeing someone else bullied, re-live their sympathetic model of their own bullying, and as a result feel a strong sense of justice against bullying. (because they have this abstract model of "what it feels like to be bullied," and feel it to be intrinsically bad, and that therefore it should not be felt in the abstract.) What this means is INFPs generally are very capable of understanding people's own emotional reactions to very high degrees, based on the their own experiences.

>>16441380
Cont.

Sorry that got a little too tunnel visioned.

INFJs are (Ni, Fe, Ti, Se). Ni, introverted intuition, is a bit complicated and I havent yet gotten a good grasp on it. But the general descriptions of it are: Future orientation, holistic vision/ interpretation of things, big picture thinking, willpower. INFJ's have (Fe), which is empathy- the involuntary experience of others emotions. Which means if they're surrounded by suffering, even if they think its justified, it tends to hurt them. They're very sensitive to this so they tend to be quiet people pleasers. INFPs, conversely, are quiet but they don't care about pleasing others as much as being left alone to their thoughts. INFJs also like being left alone, but if there is emotional disharmony (rudeness, awkwardness, tension) they will quickly and aggressively pacify it. I dated an INFJ for a while, and if I did something wrong she would go from passive sweet person to iron wall ultimatum about my behavior in literally .3 seconds. If you do this you may be an INFJ. INFPs don't do this; if they are hurt emotionally, they withdraw and spend hours analyzing their emotions, the situation and what happened, both parties motivations, how they should feel/ do feel about the situation, etc.

So INFPs are emotional analysts much like INTP are objective analysts; the INTP analyzes and systematizes objective information, the INFP analyzes and makes sense of their own subjective identity/ reactions to things/ behavior/ circumstances etc. This is why people think Shakespeare was an INFP, he created so many well fleshed out characters, hypothetically, because he had such a deep analysis of his own nature, which he then universalized into human nature and imbued into his characters in incredibly life-like ways.

The INFJ is associated with Christ and other spiritual leaders, (ghandi, MLK) because they're future orientation and holistic vision (Ni) is associated with their empathy (Fe) and gives them a deep understanding of the interconnected emotional vibrations of society- and therefore, how to make a harmony between them. With this knowledge they have the aforementioned explosions and create ultimatums that will harmonize the tumultuous emotional patterns they see.

>Incels will make Art Great Again

Oh hell yeah

>>16441410
haha INFPs and INTPs are brothers, we're so similar in our outward behavior. I see why you'd think I'm soulless, my best friend was an INFP and he had trouble understanding how I could be so coldly analytical about things. I'm going to be mean and say INFPs can be super selfish and super prideful. But on the whole brilliant and insightful people, in my experience, and incredibly good listeners. Good people. Also a fellow common incel type. My INFP buddy was a tinder addict btw, probably fucked 80 women by 27

>>16441611
>INFJs also like being left alone, but if there is emotional disharmony (rudeness, awkwardness, tension) they will quickly and aggressively pacify it. I dated an INFJ for a while, and if I did something wrong she would go from passive sweet person to iron wall ultimatum about my behavior in literally .3 seconds
My experience with an INFJs is less this and more them constantly making themselves into a martyr over every little thing

>>16441526
>they will criticize the government
That's interesting, I thought that most Chinese were fairly supportive of their government and its policies, even on a personal level.

>I don't think its practical because of geopolitics
What do you mean? How is such an ideology hindered by geopolitics?

>What one does is often less important than whether what one does is in alignment with their authentic nature/ desires.
Well said, I agree. Intent goes a long way in identifying virtue.

That's quite the informative analysis.
Concerning Fi users and their tendency to create "sympathetic models" according to prior experiences, isn't it a common thing in general to relate more strongly to people who've gone through something similar to your own painful experience?
Both of your descriptions are relatable in their own ways and depending on the circumstances, I think I'll dig deeper into cognitive functions as you recommended.

>>16441852
That too. They kind of piss me off because they won't let you reciprocate and then they get pissed because they think they're carrying the relationship. I like INFJs but both of us need to be mature if we're going to make it work.

>>16441919
The chinese I spoke to were still very supportive of their gov't, far more than U.S. citizens. But they weren't mindless drones and had problems with the gov't, and many hated Mao and his legacy.

>geopolitics
I mean that the epicurean life of chilling with friends and living a sober, happy life isn't possible because of all of the disunity remaining in the world. On all levels, geopolitical, ideological, on personal identity (white/black/american/chinese instead of a universal human identity, or even more universal "conscious being" identity) income inequalities, etc. We have centuries of homogenization of these things to go through before we will have the ability to live like epicureans as a collective whole. I see history as approaching a Telos, and the telos is a long way away.

>Isn't it common in general to relate to those with similar experiences?

Yes, but some do so more than others. Fi is a cognitive function I don't entirely understand, perhaps because as an INTP its something that's rarely in my conscious awareness. So take it with a grain of salt. But I think primary Fi users like INFPs do it much more often and much more deeply than most people, and are exceptional at creating models of human nature. INFPs are commonly fiction writers, which lends credence to this a bit.

Yeah I recommend you check it out. As I wrote earlier I think there's a lot more to theorize about the field, and a lot of good that can be done with it. Learning it may open possibilities for you in the future, and it will definitely help you understand your relationships better/ give you peace about yourself and why others are different. At least, it did so for me.

>>16442081
>chilling with friends and living a sober, happy life isn't possible
Not to be pedantic, but on a purely practical, material level it doesn't seem unattainable. You would need to cut yourself off from current events and whatever is happening around you, but such communities exist, I think.
As a collective whole I agree that it's impossible for now.

>much more often and much more deeply
In that case perhaps your original assessment of me as INFJ is more accurate. Yet I feel too self-centered and withdrawn to relate to this archetype of the empathetic spiritual leader... And too fundamentally irrational to even consider a thinking type.
>there's a lot more to theorize about the field
Is any interesting work being done about it currently?
>it did so for me
I find that a pitfall of systems that seek to classify personality is that some people might feel (unconsciously) compelled to modify their own behavior according to the category they've determined they fit into, or more generally that it enables a view of human personality that is rigid, narrow or unbending instead of fluid and holistic. Do you sometimes find yourself in those situations?

I stumbled across this story recently and I think that it might be the first story ever written about an incel.
It's an early 20th century russian story about an incel who gets bullied for his looks and dies alone. I know that not everyone on /lit/ likes audiobooks but it's a pretty good listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjePP6eR3cY

>>16442198
> I feel too self-centered and withdrawn to relate to this archetype of the empathetic spiritual leader

Most of us fall short of our archetypes. I'm not Einstein, Darwin, or Hegel.

>Is any interesting work being done about it currently?
I'd say the youtuber at cognitive personality type is the cutting edge. C.S. Joseph's theory is interesting, but his presentation sucks, he rambles and is a bit of an ass.
Its going to take a fair amount of research for you to be able to appreciate it, I think, but the theory needs development in this sense:
Using INTP as an example. The cognitive functions: are (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe); but then that asks, where are the other 4 functions? Are they unconscious? Do they drift in and out of consciousness? Are the 4 major functions essentially the inertial position of the personality, and can that inertial position be left?
The answer seems to be yes- the other 4 functions can be accessed (for the INTP: Te, Ni, Se, Fi). New theories suggest that for 'immature' types, these functions lurk in the unconscious and generally come out when they are stressed. More developed people are theoretically capable of having more conscious mastery of these unconscious functions. Also- how do the functions interact? etc. There's a lot to be done. My main issue with the field is that it lacks focus on self-actualization- its more content to say "you are these types with these propensities;" it needs to add: "and this is how you develop into your ideal self, sharpening your strengths and smoothing out your weaknesses."

Which leads to...
>I find that a pitfall of systems that seek to classify personality is that some people might feel (unconsciously) compelled to modify their own behavior according to the category they've determined they fit into, or more generally that it enables a view of human personality that is rigid, narrow or unbending instead of fluid and holistic.
Totally. I fell into this myself- I've been into the field for 5-6 years, and especially early on I totally was enslaved to conceptual identity I had. I overcame it, but for INTPs, who are often described as awkward and weird, it enflamed my insecurities and made me think I can't get past them. Eventually through time and experience I overcame this. I think we need to stress that this is a general outline and not a fatalistic description of who you must be. That being said, people in general, whether they know MBTI or not, commonly fall into a self-defined identity they think they have to be. I don't think the problem is entirely the mbti's fault. But we need to stress that the true 'self' we all are is more complex than any theoretical construct, and your drive to improve is more important. That being said, knowing i'm an INTP has now helped me accept my quirkyness and my lone wolf nature. Sometimes its nice to learn what your dispositions are because it gives you peace.

Why do you say you're irrational?

>>16442453
>I've been into the field for 5-6 years, and especially early on I totally was enslaved to conceptual identity I had
That's interesting to me since personally I've never felt MBTI influenced my actions and can't really imagine it would do so, but I definitely get it impacting your self perception. What I've experienced is more trying to absorb any info about my type and others that I can find, and then compare whether they match me or not, and question if I'm really my type over any new bit of contradictory info. I suppose that's the INFP Fi though, it's like a never ending quest for understanding yourself. You were spot on with INFPs being selfish up there, we're pretty self centered on our own feelings and experiences.

>>16442453
>I'm not Einstein, Darwin or Hegel
Sure. But do you identify to their personal outlooks, struggles and ways of thinking?

>C.S. Joseph
Thanks, I'll check him out. He's the only one at the cutting edge of cognitive function research, so to speak? I don't mean research in the academic sense obviously, I'm pretty sure MBTI is barely even studied in academia.
>these functions lurk in the unconscious
This is the concept of shadow functions, yes? Would it be linked to the eponymous Jungian shadow?
>There's a lot to be done
Do you think there's hope of it gaining traction in more rigorous academic circles and thus of being studied in-depth? Or is it doomed to stay a fringe model because of how esoteric Jung's underlying theories are perceived?
>and this is how you develop into your ideal self
I found a blog that seems to have that kind of approach actually, it's called mbti-notes.tumblr.com, I know >tumblr but it looks interesting. Do you know about it?

>enslaved to conceptual identity
Yeah that's what I find scary. The human mind is good at fooling itself, and entering a vicious circle of trying to conform to a clear-cut ideal that only serves to limit you seems like a real possibility.
> the true 'self' we all are is more complex than any theoretical construct
Yes, that's right. Much like archetypes, the best way to see it might be that MBTI provides you with a symbol to which you can identify, but the symbol itself isn't "you".
>knowing i'm an INTP
How has it affected the way you interact with other people when you become aware of their types?

>Why do you say you're irrational?
I'm great at deluding myself and thinking I'm being logical, but the way I use logic is always as a crutch to justify otherwise irrational positions, which is to say, I first get a feeling that something is right because it just feels right, then I'll use logic or just plain sophistry to justify that it's the truth. But in essence, logic is not a motivator for me, I don't care if my beliefs are not logical (and I especially don't care about empiricism). Of course this is only the case for important stuff, I can use logic just fine when it comes to academics, projects or whatever. But in general, my inner landscape consists of a jumble of flowing thoughts and feelings that I can barely make sense of (despite paradoxically being a very structured person in my "external" day to day life).

>>16442597
>I first get a feeling that something is right because it just feels right, then I'll use logic or just plain sophistry to justify that it's the truth. But in essence, logic is not a motivator for me, I don't care if my beliefs are not logical (and I especially don't care about empiricism). Of course this is only the case for important stuff, I can use logic just fine when it comes to academics, projects or whatever. But in general, my inner landscape consists of a jumble of flowing thoughts and feelings that I can barely make sense of (despite paradoxically being a very structured person in my "external" day to day life).
You're definitely an INFJ.

>>16442610
What makes you so sure?

>>16442613
The "feeling that something is right because it just feels right", and then cooking up logic to explain it, is an apt description of the interaction between Ni(introverted intuition) and Ti (introverted thinking). You call yourself irrational but there is nothing wrong with your process, what you call sophistry is just your way of processing your intuition and turning it into something that can be communicated. Like everything with functions it's neutral and can be used for good purposes, there's nothing wrong with not being primarily driven by logic, most people aren't.

>>16442634
Ah, I understand.
Often the way I turn impressions and feelings into something intelligible hardly makes sense and is full of glaring holes and inconsistencies which is why I called it sophistry.
I took a look at how Ni is defined and I see it described as some kind of premonitory process quite often, but I can't say I'm particularly good at making predictions. When I talked about something "feeling right" I meant it on a personal level, that it gave me a feeling of compelling and rewarding rightness; it doesn't have much to do with predicting anything.

>>16439472
So go get one loser.

>>16442691
Ni can predict things but it's rather misunderstood in that sense, it's not a very good description for it. Literally understanding it as introverted intuition is the best way to make sense of it, as in it's intuition, but internal. Sensing something is "right" without anything to back it up would be an example of intuition. The difference between Ni and Ne (extroverted intuition), would be that Ne makes external connections and wouldn't have trouble explaining where they came from, and is interested in developing and testings it's intuitions by directly interacting with the outside world. Ni is a bit more obscure and unconscious, which is why it has a more mysticism surrounding its definitions.

>>16439259
>I'm a pua
How do I escalate kino on an HB7 after a DHV routine followed by a neg to bypass her ASD?

>>16442733
Okay, that makes it clearer. If I understand correctly, functions are paired in axes, yeah? Intuitive functions with sensory functions, and thinking functions with feeling functions. It's fairly obvious how thinking is opposed to feeling, but how does intuition oppose sensing? Is strong intuition simply correlated with less "presence" in the present, physical moment, while strong sensing is correlated with being less stuck in one's head, less reflective?

>>16436369
Wouldn't you rather it be confined to one thread than a million "what are some books about [loaded political topic]" shitpost threads?

>>16442794
>Is strong intuition simply correlated with less "presence" in the present, physical moment, while strong sensing is correlated with being less stuck in one's head, less reflective?
More or less but not exactly, since introverted sensing and extroverted intuition can both break these stereotypes. It's more about the concrete vs abstract and the immediately practical vs the conceptual. If you'd consider yourself very grounded and practical, and uninterested in entertaining theoretical ideas if you don't see a clear application for them, you probably have sensing as one of your top two functions.

>>16442597
>Sure. But do you identify to their personal outlooks, struggles and ways of thinking?
Yes I do. Particularly ways of thinking, I constantly am refining an abstract system of thought.

>Thanks, I'll check him out. He's the only one at the cutting edge of cognitive function research, so to speak? I don't mean research in the academic sense obviously, I'm pretty sure MBTI is barely even studied in academia.

Also CognitivePersonalityTheory, that's another youtube channel. Better than C.S. Joseph in my opinion. But C.S. joseph is quite good as well.
>This is the concept of shadow functions, yes? Would it be linked to the eponymous Jungian shadow?

There's a lot of overlap but some differences. Definitely a good way of thinking of it.

>Do you think there's hope of it gaining traction in more rigorous academic circles and thus of being studied in-depth? Or is it doomed to stay a fringe model because of how esoteric Jung's underlying theories are perceived?

I doubt it will break into academia any time soon, but I also think modern academia is fucked because of its scientific overly empiric metaphysical outlook. They see Jung's mysticism as a weakness; but its really one of his major strengths and where our intellectual future lies. since the internet a splinter academia archipelago is rising, and cognitive functions are becoming very very prominent in it. And I also think the internet thinkers tend to be better and certainly more visionary than 'academia.'

>I found a blog that seems to have that kind of approach actually, it's called mbti-notes.tumblr.com.

Haven't heard about it but if it is focused on self-actualization I think its good people.

>How has it affected the way you interact with other people when you become aware of their types?

Yes, in a negative way sometimes. A positive is I find consistent patterns- I almost always gel with INFPs, INFJs, and I find I have great romantic chemistry with ENFJs and ENFPs. So its helped me spot people I'd vibe with quickly. That being said I sometimes, despite my best intentions, find myself manipulating them- especially in romantic relationships. Though I'm getting better at being honest. Its also helped me make sense of my relationship history- my brother's an ESTP, one of the most charismatic and 'Chad' types, which explained a lot. My mom's an ESTJ, a "Follow the rules and do what's right and don't ask questions" type, which makes sense of how she never got my imagination and free thinking. Its helped me forgive and forget. Lots of good from it.

>Your self-description
Yeah you sound very INFJ. INFJs tend to come to conclusions they feel strongly about and then rationalize them. And like other anon said, its not bad. Introverted Intuition is a function that connects lots of dots unconsciously and then gives you a complete picture without showing its work. Its important to develop your logic but its your natural immature state to be that way.

>>16442829
>introverted sensing and extroverted intuition can both break these stereotypes
How does introverted sensing manifest?

>>16442894
Introverted sensing is again, literally sensing, internally. Introverted sensors often have great memory and are very orderly, though it's not always the case. The difference with extroverted sensation is that it is very much in the moment and looking for ways to interact physically with what's around them. Si-dominants are a lot more in their head and are interacting with their impressions of reality more than the literal external world. Si-dominants are generally people who want things to have a certain order to them and very much dislike change they didn't approve of or plan for. They understand the world primarily based on their personal perceptions of it and can be stubborn people, "set in their ways". The stereotypical image of a Si-dom is often the archetypal responsible parental figure. One way to put it is that Se is oriented towards the present while Si is more oriented to the past. It's not unlike the difference between Ni and Ne,

>>16442863
>I constantly am refining an abstract system of thought.
Like what, at the moment for example? If you don't mind sharing.

>modern academia is fucked because of its scientific overly empiric metaphysical outlook.
I hear this criticism thrown around a lot lately, increasingly so it seems. I hope it'll lead to actual change, the paradigm of scientism is dry and depressing. Internet communities providing a different outlook is good, but it'd also be nice for it to spread to actual mainstream academia. The worship of science won't lead anywhere good and only serves to further atomize people. Does nobody within current academia dare speak out against it?

>I find consistent patterns
Do you believe there's a consistent model to be found that could describe inter-type relationships (not necessarily to make accurate predictions, but just to paint with a broad stroke how different types may or may not be compatible in various situations and dynamics)? There are a few available on the internet, but they are all conflicting and don't seem very well thought-out.

> an ESTP, one of the most charismatic and 'Chad' types
>My mom's an ESTJ, a "Follow the rules and do what's right and don't ask questions" type
Is it just inherently difficult for N and S types to mesh and understand each other?

>come to conclusions they feel strongly about and then rationalize them
Yeah, that's exactly it. I don't think it's bad either, it's just that you're usually expected to substantiate whatever your beliefs are with actual logical reasoning (understandably). I often cling to what I believe and am quite self-centered which leads to appearing colder/harsher/more intense than I actually am.

>>16442944
>Introverted sensors often have great memory and are very orderly
What kind of memory?
I find that I have an exceptional visual and emotional memory and remember insignificant events from decades ago, but that my memory is unpredictable.
On the other hand my dad sucks at remembering subjects we discussed, ideas that were mentioned or specific events, but he's great at retaining small bits of information, physical details, stuff like that. Could that be introverted sensing?
>people who want things to have a certain order to them and very much dislike change they didn't approve of or plan for.
Aren't all "J" types like this to varying extents?

>>16443061
>Like what, at the moment for example? If you don't mind sharing.
My book is a book on metaphysics starting with the self as an abstract identity and building up from there how the material plane and consciousness are interconnected, how they mold each other, how subjective and objective ethics are simultaneously true because our isolated subjectivities are unified in the material plane, which is fundamentally interconnected, and from there I'm building up the processes of reality and how they lead to modernity, and how I believe they'll necessarily lead to a final Telos of Utopia. This is (Ti) and (Si) building up concepts (Si) and organizing them in a perfect logical harmony (Ti). The information comes from (Ne) and my main driver is (Fe)- creating a perfectly logically sound philosophy so it can be put into practice and create a society where people are acting in accordance with the intrinsic order of the world.

>Does nobody within current academia dare speak out against it?
I'm sure, more and more, but its pockets. The overarching worldview in academia when I was there was materialism and moral relativism. That was 3 years ago though.

>Do you believe there's a consistent model to be found that could describe inter-type relationships (not necessarily to make accurate predictions, but just to paint with a broad stroke how different types may or may not be compatible in various situations and dynamics)? There are a few available on the internet, but they are all conflicting and don't seem very well thought-out.
This is where you and I and anyone who wants to expand the field come in. Most systems have concluded that your ideal type match is the opposite of your cognitive functions in the same order; (INFJ and ENFP, for instance.) I've found this to be a good start, but my personal favorite isn't ENTJ, but ENFJ. It needs to be further looked into. This too will be more idiosyncratic than systematic, personal preferences are consistent but there's a fair amount of variation. This are needs a lot of development.

>Is it just inherently difficult for N and S types to mesh and understand each other?
That's the stereotype and there's some truth to it, but I like a few sensor types. This too needs more research- not just theory, but people sharing their experiences. We need some empiricism in the field.

>I often cling to what I believe and am quite self-centered which leads to appearing colder/harsher/more intense than I actually am.
In my experience INFJs are super fucking intense. Its a pain sometimes but I have a great deal of respect for their drive and self-certainty. Quick note: if you often are paranoid of the intentions of others that's another dead giveaway that you're INFJ. They tend to be both incredibly naive and simultaneously incredibly distrusting of others depending on the situation.

>>16443142
>to varying extents
Yes, but it's a pretty sloppy generalization. Si and Ni are similar aside from being oriented towards sensing vs intuition, so you'll find a decent amount of overlap. What you described with your father indeed sounds like it could be introverted sensing. The impression it gives differs depending on whether it's augmented with Te or Fe. ISFJs (and INFJs to some extent, though not as consistently), will have highly developed social memories about feelings, conversations, and events, while ISTJs are more concerned with details they find practically useful. The ISFJ (Si-Fe) stereotype is the protective and doting but somewhat naggy housewife/mother, while ISTJ would be more like a stern, emotionally closed-off father who nevertheless works hard every day for his family without complaint. Si dominants in general have the stereotype of being dutiful but dull people. They're traditionally two of the most common types.

>>16443171
>ENFJ
Out of curiosity, what do you like about ENFJ? I'm the INFP anon, and while I do like ENFJ I can't help but find them as just more shallow and manipulative versions of INFJs. I might just have had some bad experiences with them though.

>>16443171
>how the material plane and consciousness are interconnected, how they mold each other
This sounds very interesting and very close to the vague conclusions I've also come to. How far are you currently to finishing it? How do you plan on publishing it once it's done?
Did you get inspiration and ideas from any specific books?

>This is where you and I and anyone who wants to expand the field come in
Unfortunately there's no real platform for such ideas to be made truly visible and to spread efficiently. Except social media I suppose, but I don't use that.

>the opposite of your cognitive functions in the same order
So pretty much your "shadow type" so to speak? Is it because the prioritized functions are similar in their focus (both intuitive, or both sensing, etc) but vary in their approach so as to bring balance and novelty to the relationship, something like that? It doesn't sound too far-fetched, but what about the idea that similar people attract each other and that you're often better off with someone who resembles you deep down?

>I like a few sensor types
I think I do as well. Wouldn't it make sense to be somewhat fascinated or just captivated by someone whose strongest functions are your weakest? Since your weak points often cause insecurity, it might require a more mature outlook, though. I don't know, just speculating based on nothing.

>INFJs are super fucking intense
It's not like I have charisma or anything. Just a resting asshole face and a cold manner of speaking. But people I'm very close to think I'm an extremist because of how uncompromising my beliefs are. They might be right.
>their drive and self-certainty
I gotta say my biggest weakness is that I'm plagued by self-doubt...
>if you often are paranoid of the intentions of others
Depends, in social contexts mainly I'm extremely mindful of the impression I give off, whether I'm liked or not, etc. But maybe that's not what you're talking about. I'm just too focused on myself, on who I am or want to be, and this clashes with my tendency to be agreeable with other people. It's a very difficult feeling to describe, sorry if I ramble.

>>16443307
It's possible you're INFP. INFP and INFJ are pretty similar in how they act, but the processes going on inside are fairly different. I'd recommend reading more about the Fi/Fe difference.

>>16443192
From your description, I'm guessing he'd be an ESTJ, since he's much more concerned with practicality and physical details, but he's not stern or introverted, more like overbearing, very principled and fast-paced in his behavior and approach to life.
I can relate your ISFJ description to other members of my family though. It's pretty fun to apply this system to people you know.

>>16443229
I love how social they are and how much energy they have. They're vibrant. And they tend to find me fascinating and I love when my knowledge is appreciated. They can be manipulative, but I can see it and I tend not to mind if its for the greater good. When its not I call them out and we figure it out together. For me the relationship has a mutual reverence and at the same time good communication, even if its a bit combative at times. They love my sense of humor too which feels good. And I love being taken care of. And they're super supportive and helpful with my goals. That's just me though, I've met a lot of good ENFJs.

Technically ENFJ is your ideal type. Maybe they aren't for you, maybe they've been immature, maybe you've been immature. I'd keep an open mind

>>16443330
Sure, I'll do that. Functions are somewhat hard to apply to oneself as standalone concepts, being able to observe your own cognition and compare it to various abstract descriptions takes a lot of objective self-awareness.

>>16443347
I think extroverted types aren't for me. I can admire them from a distance but the energy is overwhelming. And I'm a bit Fe-allergic despite appreciating it. The shadow matching isn't a bad matchmaking system but like you said above I don't think it can be codified so easily. I've been quite happy with an INFJ, so I guess that's close enough though.

>>16441440
How much sex are you having?

>/lit/ - incels discussing horoscopes

I wish 4chan had an mbti/jungian theory board, there's nowhere good online to talk about this shit

>>16443402
Considering hiro is currently creating a bunch of useless boards just to emulate 2ch, you might be able to convince him if you can get ahold of him

>>16440134

>>16443383
Why does it matter?

>>16443307
>>16443307
>This sounds very interesting and very close to the vague conclusions I've also come to. How far are you currently to finishing it? How do you plan on publishing it once it's done?
Did you get inspiration and ideas from any specific books?
Probably a year. Yes I'll publish, or self publish if I need to. Specific books? Yes and no. I've read most of Plato, Aristotle, Greek tragedians, shakespeare, a bit of kant and hegel, Emerson, The Bible, Bhagavad Gita, Illiad and Odyssey, lots of history podcasts and videos. Those pop into my mind and all were really important to the evolution of my worldview. but there are quite a few more. Honestly I don't know what you're looking to do with reading, but my recommendation is as many classics as possible, and starting with Plato and the Apology is not a meme.

>what about the idea that similar people attract each other and that you're often better off with someone who resembles you deep down?
for some this may be the right path. Some introverts want to be with another introvert so they can have their me time. I don't think dating your own type would work, there's too much similarity it becomes a territorial battle. There's respect for each others strengths but very little reverence or appreciation for someone just like you. Thats been my experience.

>Wouldn't it make sense to be somewhat fascinated or just captivated by someone whose strongest functions are your weakest?
That's how I am with ENFJs. They're my favorite match. I find there's a mutual reverence when the weakest function and strongest function are flipped. ENFJs Fe is super awesome to me, and they, with their inferior Ti, find my ability to break things down logically awe inspiring. Having intuition in common tends to be important in my experience, S and N users have a hard time finding each other intelligible or relevant if they don't work at it.

Your other descriptions make me think INFP, they can be pretty extreme and strident in their beliefs. Hard to say.

>>16443391
Now that you're here true /lit/ is back: people who speak about things they've never read

>>16443554
seethe

>>16443469
just trying to figure out if you are actually thinking or just coping

hey horoscope masters, what should I date

t. get about 50/50 entp and entj

>>16443358
About the agreeableness thing, are you often agreeable even if it's to your detriment? I'm INFP and while I'm very passive and agreeable it's only to the extent that being agreeable with other people makes things more comfortable for me. When that's not true I'm not shy about saying no or fucking off from shit I don't want to be a part of. Most people think I'm very polite but the high Fe users in my life think I can be kind of rude because of this. INFJ and ISFJ (aux Fe) will be more willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of group harmony (though they're also always keeping tabs on what they've done for you too)

>>16443603
Are you a lazy troll or a wannabe CEO? It depends on your answer

>>16438106
>A psychologist, which I lie to
Maybe you should try revealing yourself to someone who is getting paid to listen to you? Do you actually know yourself? Why are you afraid of telling a secret bound therapist the truth? Because of shame??? Ashamed of a therapist? Do you know the embarrassing shit people tell them daily? Comon bruh. Ease out a little.

>>16440442
>I don't believe in modern psychology
>Mbti
Choose one please

>>16443658
MBTI is modern but it's not psychology

>>16443479
It'd be nice to get to read it once you're done, though I'm guessing sharing your real name on /lit/ isn't a very clever move.
>as many classics as possible
Sure, I read the Apology, started the Republic now. I've been wanting to read the Enneads afterwards but I'm not sure if I should wait to be acquainted more thoroughly with the classics.

>very little reverence or appreciation for someone just like you
Makes sense, there'd also be very little novelty in the relationship due to the other person thinking and behaving in very similar ways, and a relationship where everything is predictable and routine doesn't sound particularly thrilling.
Yet isn't it usually pleasing to meet someone who has the same type as you?

>Having intuition in common tends to be important in my experience
Then that model doesn't work for intuitive and sensing dominants since you'd necessarily have an S/N relationship.
How do you find ESFJs, by the way?

>Your other descriptions make me think INFP
Yeah I'm all over the place and not very good at describing myself in a way that isn't a chaotic clusterfuck of impressions, sorry.

I'm gonna go to sleep now, this was a great conversation. Hopefully the thread will still be alive tomorrow, but if it's not, have a good one anon, and good luck with your book, I hope it turns out great for you.

>>16443612
>are you often agreeable even if it's to your detriment?
Kind of, my self-esteem is pretty low so I tend to let myself be "stepped on" a bit for the sake of harmony and avoiding conflicts. I really hate conflicts and "bad vibes".

>it's only to the extent that being agreeable with other people makes things more comfortable for me
Well, of course there's that, since social harmony is always inherently conducive to a more comfortable situation, right?

When you say no, are you firm and dead set, in an abrasive way perhaps? I can say no as well (I'm not a complete doormat) but I tend to sugarcoat things a bit, or I just fuck off instead of confronting people when I don't agree with something (I do that a lot actually).

>Most people think I'm very polite
Me too, maybe this is common for all feeling-type introverts though, at least according to typical descriptions.

>>16441182
Ok virgin

>>16443670
They're both based on similar premises.
You all sound to me as if you based a part of your ego around mbti, which exists to describe (not contain) personality. As Jung would say, the thou is foremost to any analysis or categorization. Why? Sounds like putting yourself in a box.

>>16443619
somewhere between as I said

Why don't you homos just stick to the Big Five?

>>16443673
>When you say no, are you firm and dead set, in an abrasive way perhaps? I can say no as well (I'm not a complete doormat) but I tend to sugarcoat things a bit, or I just fuck off instead of confronting people when I don't agree with something (I do that a lot actually).
I have trouble being outright confrontational to people because I'm a pussy who's scared of conflict, so I won't be abrasive unless I'm angry, which is rare. I'll usually remove myself from the situation rather than actually confront anyone. In my experience INFJs are braver about conflict. I sugarcoat but I can lack social niceties sometimes.

>>16443705
mbti is more fun

>>16443705
mbti has no right answers, whereas the big five has clearly optimal personalities

>>16443705
Because its lit so people debate about outdated pseudoscience

>>16443673
Same anon, good luck to you.

>>16443677
No.

>>16443603
I'd like to know this too.

>>16443603
INFJ or INFP

>>16443587
I can have sex if I want it, I've had several friends with benefits over the past year, but I just find casual sex to be ultimately hollow and unfulfilling. I've had two long term relationships, and the emotional intimacy made the physical intimacy much greater than it is without, and that's what I'm missing more than anything. Ever since my last breakup it seems the dating world has gone to hell and no one wants to commit emotionally.

>>16443857
care to elaborate?

>>16438193
>caring about discussions that hit mainstream
Once everybody can have an opinion on a topic it really doesn't matter what anybody says since it is used to polarize

>>16443881
Seeing as this is a psychoanalysis thread:
>Ever since my last breakup it seems the dating world has gone to hell and no one wants to commit emotionally.
Transference.

>>16443603
You should date the opposite of yourself, so a INFP or INFJ.

>>16440449
Yes. All celibacy is voluntary by definition.

>>16443881
You're a virgin for sure

>>16443857
>>16444679
welp a life of unfilling sex it is then

>>16440134
d

what do people do at clubs?

>>16445257
pretend to have fun

Are INFP's bad at sex or something?

>>16445373
They're bad at everything

>>16445373
What do INFPs have to the with anything?

>>16441630
They are already making this board great again, step by step, thread by thread.

>>16445373
I'm decent at it

pic related. is me

>>16436348
How can you be involuntarily celibate when whores exist? I could have some random whore sucking my dick in the next hour if i really wanted

>>16446825
>16personalities
Might as well just take a "what pokemon are you" test from buzzfeed at this point

>>16446825
Tranny haha. All the trannies have that

>>16440220
>She was definitely being intentionally nuanced.
Strong disagree. Cat Person is one of hundreds of stories they had submitted to various magazines over a few years, it's just the one that by virtue of a monkey typing infinite prose happened to appear to be nuanced and thus have some merit (and therefore was the one that was accepted).

>>16447395
Even actual good authors have trouble getting published so I don't see how that proves the story lacks nuance.

>>16447395
I based it entirely on her short story collection, which I read.
There were a few stories with similar themes and none of them were wholely supportive of the female POV.
This one for example:

https://humanparts.medium.com/the-good-guy-a-story-from-the-author-of-cat-person-59e5bfe9322f

>>16443881
I had a friend who got heavily into PUA and it ruined the level of trust he had for women.
This same guy would talk about women he'd met on the street and fucked the same day, women who cheated on their boyfriends with him, women who he'd talked into "open relationships".
Lots of stories along those lines that basically eroded his trust in the idea of long term relationships.
My take was that not every woman is the type who would be stopped by a guy in the street and end up having sex with him.
You're preselecting for a person with unusually permeable sexual boundaries.

I think this is generally the issue with people in your case. Plenty of women want an emotional connection, but if you've been focused on hookups, you probably don't know where to encounter them or how to approach them.

>>16436405
it's tomorrow now anon time to send those job applications

>>16448053
How many men compared to women wouldn't agree to these same things if an attractive women approached them on the street?

>>16448078
I think at least half would.
People do those "do you want to fuck" social experiments on YouTube all the time.
It's generally 0% success for a man to women and much higher from a woman to men. Most men who refuse are worried about it being a setup (which it is).
Obviously my friend is doing more that walking up and saying "wanna fuck". Oftentimes it requires a few dates or what-have-you, but most women refuse it out of hand.

>>16448105
Unless he has never had a woman ignore him right off the bat he should realize the type of women who are loyal/not gigantic sluts are the ones who wouldn't even engage with him.

>>16448119
Yeah, of course, that was my point.
But I think that part of PUA is establishing an internal locus of control in this area. It's not entirely true, but for it to work you have to instil the idea that most of your success is down to your approach, rather than the whims of the woman you're approaching.
Otherwise there would be nothing to sell, no industry and they'd all be "blackpillers". The reality is somewhere in the middle, as it always is.

>>16440134
FUCK you

>>16438106
Narcy fuckwit.

>>16448105
It's actually around 2% from a man to women
t. i had some bad times in my life

tfw no gf was our Pairs is Burning guys. Joker was our black panther.

>>16436214
>masculine
If there was an ounce of masculinity in these twerps, they wouldn't be incels.

the voluntary incel is a natural reaction to the growingly unacceptable levels of degeneracy in western society, pertaining specifically to the behavior of recent generations of women.

I'm writing an incel novel, how can I write it in such a way that the dumb roasties with reader jobs at publishing houses due to nepotism will think that it's on their side so they won't throw it in the trash straight away whilst also not being worthless roasty supporting trash?

>>16450749
Focus on the mental issues like the joker movie

>>16450749
There are no reader jobs at publishing houses anymore. You’re pitching to a literary agent who will agree to represent it to a publisher (though the agents probably have assistants who read for screening purposes and they are probably roasties)

>>16436279
Nice boobs.