/lit/ - Literature

Just ask the captain if he thinks it is the same ship or not.

>>16366598
Those are obviously different ships.

>>16366611
Checked and sensible-pilled

>>16366622
If every atom in our body is renewed over a few years, are we still we?
How many pieces of the ship can you change before it's not the ship?
MY MIND IS IN FUCKING SHAMBLES

>>16366639
We are not.

>>16366657
Do we constantly die every second and are replaced by a new "we" every time anything changes?

jesus christ are you a 15 year old having your first "deep" thoughts?

>>16366667
Yeah

>>16366598
they are

>>16366598
The REAL answer is that they are the same because a thing is not reducible to its matter. A thing’s form is as important to what it is as the matter of which it is composed. Quantitative change can alter a thing’s quality (what it is), as if for instance we imagine scaling down a house to a doll house, which, even though it is composed of the same matter, would become a different sort of thing, namely to go from being a dwelling place to being a toy. In the case of the ship the quantitative change is indifferent to its quality (to what it is). A ship is a means for going over water, and this function is not perturbed by adding or removing materials. The ship in OPs pic is different however, as the first one is powered by wind and the other by diesel. In the original example the “new” ship is identical to the first.

>>16366598
Object persistence over time is always subjective and arbitrary. The reality is just continuous fields over spacetime.

>>16366598
Who cares? If it loses a chip of wood during a storm does it instantly become a completely different ship?

A ship is not a singular entity, it's just a convenient wrap-up term for a bunch of stuff that do things. Do the stuff do the things like it used to do? Then it's pretty much still the same stuff.

First we should ask what kind of a thing the ship of theseus is: clearly, in most common ontologies we would consider it an artifact. The identity conditions of an artifact is divided into it's material and its intesional properties. The material properties are the material properties that it is made of; the intensional properties are those given by the creator that bear to its function. This is also how you solve the clay vs statue identity problem. If we're to think that artifacts persist beyond their creator it think it is plausible to say that that this occurs at the time of original composition, and it isn't a relative property. If we can accept such a property, then the answer is clearly the original ship, not the reconstructed one. The original ship, which has continuity of function, continues to bear the original intensional property as long as it continues to ferry back and forth between athens and crete. The reconstructed ship, however, gains an intensional property when it is created again as a different artifact.
I think tying the identity of an artifact to its material continents is missing the point of what distinguishes an artifact from any other material object in the first place. Of course, if you're an eliminativist about non-physical properties then i think you're forced to follow the original materials. But i stake my claim that ship one is the ship of theseus, ship two is another ship entirely.
If you want to have your cake and eat it too, there is always the superposition option: there were always two ships but, for the beginning of both of their lifetimes, they were superimposed in the same location. As long as we stipulate that they never shared the exact same properties (which is easy if you accept artifacts), then Leibniz's Law if never violated. So you always had two ships of theseus: the material ship and the artifact ship, and they simply diverge in position over time.

>>16366783
This is the core of it, really. Structure and function are really synonymous, a thing is defined by its behavior under particular circumstances. When two things act in exactly the same way when under the same circumstances in all circumstances, they are exactly the same thing

>>16366639
We are completely different people after seven or so years. The brain tried to store the memories, but try to recall things and they’re always fuzzy.
Now is all there is of you. Your mind isn’t in shambles, it’s working fine Now.

https://youtu.be/vJFuVhsemVs
https://youtu.be/nkzrSZKA4cM

>>16366874
Do you not believe in Leibniz's Law?

>>16366639
You naturally grow up from a child to a man, that's a part of who and what you are. Part of your form even if the matter changes.