/lit/ - Literature

>>16338917
that's fine marxists don't think authority is necessary (in communism anyway)

Lord of the flies

>>16338917
Read Stirner.

The Critique of Pure Reason

>>16338917
You could always be a liberal

>>16338917
growing up usually cures that

>>16338917
What do you mean by authority in this case? Have you read Engels On Authority?

>I'm a marxist who doesn't completely believe that authority is necessary, but I don't wanna be a fucking anarchist.
Absolute state of modern Marxists. They just dislike shit because their favorite Twitter handle said that it's bad. Anyway, Marx, Engels and Lenin all wrote against anarchism a bunch along with thousands of less influential theorists.

While I agree anarchism doesn't really work it should be allowed to flourish at certain times. When the system becomes undesirable and you want a fresh start push anarchism. It's great for erasing the whole system. Eventually something else will replace it which you can help shape but he chaos it brings is at times needed to truly destroy a bad state. It's an important tool to keep in the book especially when you are promoting it in a rival's populace

>>16338917
Thomas Hobbes
Carl Schmitt
Leo Strauss

Grow up faggot

>>16338917
Marx on Proudhon and Stirner.

>>16339419
>Carl Schmitt
>Thomas Hobbes

Hardly. It might be argued that these guys in fact are merely stocking the flames of anarchism, as they're the ones who rely on secularized theological notions/ideas of (the essence of) man - which is basically that they are rotten to the core. Anarchists imagine that, after the toppling of the ideological structures which make somewhat arbitrary distinctions among human beings (namely Christianity, nations and nation states) is fully realized, humanity can finally attain eternal peace free from conflict, hunger and poverty.

Not that I disagree with either of them... merely here to play the devil's advocate.

Someone define Anarchism right now -- that includes how the economy/govt. operates.

>>16340260
who cares bout that? just wanna see it all burning :D :D :DDD

>>16338917
Which boy is this and where's his nudes.

This makes the anarchist chomskyite seethe

>>16338917
Marxists telling anarchists that anarchism isn't realistic is one of the funnier political interactions

hegel, marx and lenin, and thats it

>>16340260
Moneyless, Marketless, stateless, borderless. All unjustifiable hierarchies challenged down to as few as convenient.
Director-democracy organizes when and where it’s necessary, if someone doesn’t feel like participating in the meetings, they’re free to go live wherever. Edgy young individualists are encouraged to go see something of the world.

>>16338917
Marx, and I believe this was in his On the Jewish Question, wants authoritarianism abolished too, but he foolishly believed the working class was enough going to have a revolution like France’s middle class did, and that they would establish a vanguardist kind of peoples party. I may be getting that last part mixed up with Lenin’s vulgarizations, but regardless, Marx bought into the idea of a worker’s state. Bakunin warning him and his camp against it, and they split the First International over the issue. A travesty.

A fucking anarchist you are. We are diverse though. Call yourself a libertarian socialist if you must, or wave an orange and black flag, whatever the fuck. Just read Herod for what must be done now
https://www.jamesherod.info/Getting_Free.pdf

>>16341415
Ehh. Pardon the first draft problems in that. You can tell what I mean.

>>16341415
Thanks based felloe with gentlemanky prose. I've downloaded you pdf and will be phone reading this at work.

>>16338917
>Books that destroy anarchism
The chronicles of CHAZ.

>>16338917
What’s wrong with an anarchist?

>>16340260
Individuals interact with each other on the same level at which nation-states interact with each other currently.

>>16341497
That, if it where a book, destroys Hakim Bey

Any book on the Spanish Civil War written by an actual reputable historian. Turns out the anarchist position after the coup was a lot more precarious than anarchist historians would have you believe, and their "control patrols" (who the bigger names among the Spanish anarchists had to disavow) had all the violence of a state with none of the accountability.

Anarchy is based. You don’t even need an anarchist society, just break the law and shit on capitalists for being soulless human beings.

>>16341883
>y, just break the law and shit on capitalists
what does this look like exactly

>>16341844
Suck it padre

>>16341883
Baby anarchism does little to nothing. We need a replacement for this shit system or it will displace us as a species from the earth

>>16340253
>secularized theological notions/ideas of (the essence of) man - which is basically that they are rotten to the core. Anarchists imagine that, after the toppling of the ideological structures which make somewhat arbitrary distinctions among human beings (namely Christianity, nations and nation states) is fully realized, humanity can finally attain eternal peace free from conflict, hunger and poverty.

But isnt eternal peace in particular, and the extrapolation of equity in not being hungery and poor "secularized theology" in your manor of speaking? Yes you may argue that a way to combat indivigual hunger or pain would be to universalize it, but that then makes those things contexual means to an ends of personal gain, not ends in themselves.

>>16338917
State and revolution

>>16341922
Litterally the prototypical example of what anon was talking about.

>>16341922
You replace the system while I NEET it up and break the law and the NAP.

>>16341966
And where does this NEET get his support?

>>16341962
Pardon?

>>16341988
From you, since your property is my property.

>>16341844
Murdering Nuns isn't state action, it is a universal good.

Now what is the OP's boy's name.

>>16341922
The POUM were more viable than the FAI leadership, because the POUM remained in closer contact with working class democracy than the CNT/FAI leadership.

Anarchists can be bolshevists too mate.

H56 answers all this. But you're all too wimpy to bow before the cock of the class, butterfly excluded. But she is too young to admit the primacy of the Central Workers Council of Greater Budapest for contemporary communist analysis.

>>16342005
From your mom or the state or what?

>>16342154
Spain fell apart because of the schism of the Stalinists with the rest, but probably also to their remaining true to the Marxist romanticism of workers seizing things. They should have opened the aperture to everyone

>>16342192
Are you going to support me after the revolution?

>>16341966
Be honest: you're more likely to take a nap than break the NAP.

>>16342335
I’m an anarchist’s anarchist, i.e. I believe that egalitarianism is absurd and that the individual should be free to establish power hierarchies if he so pleases. If another “anarchist” tries to get in his way he should violate the NAP and irrevocably destroy said person.

>>16338917
that would be any and all books, the very existence of books destroys anarchism

>>16341922
Anarchists lose like it's their job. You can't always blame the communists. If it's always the communists' fault, what does it make you that it you always trust them? or maybe you're just using that as an excuse.

>>16342154
ignoring the 2edgy4me response, even if icing nuns and pro-republic landlords was the right thing to do, that still did a great job at alienating the broad class coalition that the anarchists needed to actually win. sure, the communists became more popular because they had the patronage of the soviet union, but the anarchists did a great job of making them look like the "moderate" faction as well.

if you're making revolution, your only duty is to win. the chinese communists and the vietcong won because they didn't alienate potentially friendly classes. that's why they're winners, and anarchists will forever be the LARPers of the left.

>>16342463
and before you paint me as some "woke" third worldist retard because of my bit on china and vietnam, yes, i believe that in most of the world at present (but probably not necessarily in the immediate post-war period) that the principal contradiction is definitely, 100% class.

>>16342463
Killing socialists to bring about socialism is a major brainfart the “communist” continually make because they’re meat heads. Lenin the chief meat head

>>16341415
>Moneyless, Marketless, stateless, borderless. All unjustifiable hierarchies challenged down to as few as convenient.
>Director-democracy organizes when and where it’s necessary, if someone doesn’t feel like participating in the meetings, they’re free to go live wherever. Edgy young individualists are encouraged to go see something of the world.
Ask me how I know all anarchists who think this can work are either kids or mentally retarded?

>>16342626
Meant direct-democracy of course.

>Ask me how my pee brain won’t even think about how people actually live, but how I imagine them to be living
Nope.

>>16342645
>Ask me how my pee brain won’t even think about how people actually live, but how I imagine them to be living
That's funny because anarchists are the ones who don't understand how people actually work. They write their philosophy with some utopian version of man in mind, and that's why it's horseshit. No borders? Until some strong guy creates borders around his area. No money? Until some strong guy creates a stand-in for money. No hierarchy? Until some strong guy says he's on top and you do what he says.
Anarchists are retards who don't understand people.

>>16341966
>>16342372
The NAP isn't a law to be enforced, it's just the way you learn to live in a society where there's no external limits on force or on retaliation. Basically, "don't fuck with anything that can fuck back." You want to go around mugging people and stealing their pocket change? Go ahead, there's no police to stop you. But how long do you think you can keep it up until someone manages to put up a fight? They don't even need to be better than you; even if you completely wreck the guy, maybe you break your hand or get a nasty bite in the process. And then it turns out the prize at the end was $3.50, a bunch of cards he'll go home and cancel tonight, and a bootloader locked phone that will never be worth anything to anyone without his password.

Basically, following the NAP is the way you limit the number of people potentially attacking you to sociopaths only, which is a tiny portion of the population. By breaking the NAP, you open yourself up to retaliation from many people who aren't just theoretically somewhere nearby, but guaranteed close enough to strike back at you.

>>16342730
>NO YOU!
There’s a long line of theorists who delve i to human behavior.
We’re perfectly capable of surviving this apocalyptic fate we seem locked into. So don’t fret over the very malleability of the human mind. There are other factors obstructing our survival.

>...Some strong guy...
When I was a girl and first heard of the term anarchist, I had no one to ask, so I thought it over. 14 year old christian conservative dismissed it on the same warlord grounds. No one was their to explain it to me.
Go read something on the topic before you jump into these threads. You’re in over your head

>>16342730
>NO YOU!
There’s a long line of theorists who delve into human behavior.
We’re perfectly capable of surviving this apocalyptic fate we seem locked into. So don’t fret over the very malleability of the human mind. There are other factors obstructing our survival.

>...Some strong guy...
When I was a girl and first heard of the term anarchist, I had no one to ask, so I thought it over. 14 year old christian conservative dismissed it on the same warlord grounds. No one was their to explain it to me.
Go read something on the topic before you jump into these threads. You’re in over your head

>>16342730
You have it backwards. Anarchists fully expect and embrace all of these things. It's statists that live in complete denial of them. Declare your community/city/state a sovereign nation and the police/national guard/US armed forces will come to remind you that it isn't. Try to print your own money and find the FBI knocking on your door. The state is in a constant and endless war against its own populace, desperately trying to prevent people from doing normal things that people are expected to do, thinking that maybe if they remind everyone enough that they're being watched, they'll stop being people.

>>16342775
>There’s a long line of theorists who delve into human behavior.
>We’re perfectly capable of surviving this apocalyptic fate we seem locked into. So don’t fret over the very malleability of the human mind. There are other factors obstructing our survival.
Irrelevant. I don't doubt we'll survive, but not under anarchism because before it could get off the ground, there's some strong guy who takes over and tells you what to do.
>Go read something on the topic before you jump into these threads. You’re in over your head
Why don't you explain to me why I'm wrong about the warlord scenario? And if it's a good explanation I'll read a book on the topic.

>>16342783
Are you comparing anarchism to larping as an anarchist under a state? Lol. Look I don't even disagree with most of your criticism of the current system, but you have to be mentally challenged to believe that you can form a radical system not based on hierarchy. It's literally impossible.

>>16342792
We won’t survive by emulating the old models. That’s the definition of insanity, doing something over and over again and hoping for a different outcome.
>why don’t you make this mule drink from the trough
You need to find your way. We drop book names all the time. You want one?
Also. Bedtime.
I have obligations to some wealthy people to attend to tomorrow

>>16341415
>Moneyless, Marketless, stateless, borderless.
so a meme that would be dominated by a foreign power with in a few days

>>16342817
Ahaha thanks for confirming that the average anarchist larpie can't even articulate their own philosophy.
>We won’t survive by emulating the old models. That’s the definition of insanity, doing something over and over again and hoping for a different outcome.
You're correct, but anarchism is even more retarded than the current system. If this is how you get people to understand your system you're not doing a very good job.

>>16342775
Butters, I am going to make you my slave and put you in my basement once the revolution happens. You are going to be my slave while I read Plato and Schopenhauer. You’ll be forced to grow vegetables and perform oral sex on strangers for food. You will lose all semblance of what it means to be human.

>>16342820
Or sabotaged from within. Even without foreign powers it would crumble within moments.

>>16342820
Capitalism always stumbles and falls, killing and maiming as it goes. Many many people are trying to turn away from it, and this can be realized when enough people are shown how much better the alternative methods work. You try to invoke fear of invasions, but that is among the horror we face under the heel of capitalism. Nuclear war, climate degradation and extinction, being the other horrors.

>>16342855
> this can be realized when enough people are shown how much better the alternative methods work.
So explain it to me then. What would anarchism do to prevent invasions, warlords, mutiny?

>>16342837
>thanks for confirming that the average anarchist
>holds down a job and needs to sleep

>>16342845
Your corpse will feed my soil

>>16342858
Read. Think. Currently you’re stuck in 14 year old me. Get to work.

>>16342862
If it's such a great philosophy you could have explained it 3 times by now but you refuse because you can't. This is why no one takes you seriously.

>>16342865
Then tell me what you would tell 14 year old you. Explain how anarchism would prevent foreign invasions and warlords.

>>16342862
get some sleep there will still be plenty of retards too dense to listen to you tomorrow.

>>16342885
I'm listening, but the faggot is incapable of explaining their own philosophy. Still waiting for that explanation.

>>16342865
14 year old you had more sense than current you. What went wrong?

>>16342888
Bro, she already explained it. Stop hating on someone just because they’re a woman and be a decent human being.

>>16342865
vague nonsense like always enjoy getting raped and chopped to pieces by a warlord

>>16342903
Where did it explain it? It said "we'll do this and have this" but no explanation HOW that would work or come about. That's what I'm asking about. If the retort is "go read" ithere's a 95% chance it is unable to explain its own philosophy.

>>16342914
Why are you calling her “it”? Do you have a problem with trans people too?

>>16342927
Irrelevant. Where is the explanation of how anarchism would come about and how it would be maintained?

>>16342930
Bro. You’re dodging the question. Why did you call her “it”?

>>16342930
Here's the thing.
Go ahead and take two years or so to read the various primary texts of the different schools of Anarchism and socialism.
What you will find is that the so-called Better Way is just what we're already doing but with different names.
It's always some very slightly modified form of Parliamentary Representative Government.
They just use terms like Cooperative, Syndicate, Soviet and so on. Bright Lights instead of Leaders.

It's the same shit we're already doing.
It's a fucking meme

>>16341415
>>16341434
Why are you pretending to be butterfly

>>16342927
NOT TRANS

>>16342930
>Where is the explanation of how anarchism would come about >>16342855 >>16341415
shut up and read

>>16342944

>>16342940
No, you're dodging the question. I've asked people to explain this simple question over and over but people refuse (or are unable to) answer and deflect with bogus statements like this. Answer my question first and I'll answer yours.

>>16342941
That's what I expected. I want to hear one of them explain it though. If it's the best thing ever, they should be able to.

>>16338917
Engels "On Authority"

>>16342952
You're not answering my question. HOW would it come about, and HOW would you maintain it? What would you do to prevent foreign powers and warlords from tearing your shit down? If you can't even explain that, why should I bother to read whatever you can't even explain?

>>16342958
>No, you're dodging the question.
Now you’re trying to use fallacies. I know you’re a bigot just admit it.

>>16342964
>Now you’re trying to use fallacies.
Just like you just did.
Answer my question first and I'll answer yours.

>>16342968
Say trans lives matter and I’ll answer your question

>>16342976
Answer my question first and I'll answer yours.

>>16342958
>>16342962
You’re actually deflecting. You refuse to get it. It happens only with superior numbers. We are the majority. Not the rich and powerful and their security forces and their propaganda wing and administrative lawyer class. We still outnumber them and communication is becoming easier and easier. Our success is far from a forgone conclusion, but please understand when I say “we” I mean you and them included. Join us Or humanity dies within the next hundred years

>>16342958
Check this out.
They are really only and just representative democracy with new names.

>>16342980
YOU are deflecting. The Aztecs and Incas had numbers but were still subdued by a few hundred Spaniards.
HOW would you prevent foreign invasions and warlord insurrections from tearing up your shit?

>>16342958
And another.
Literally it's exactly how most of the world is governed RIGHT NOW.

>>16342981
>>16342984
Kek. So much for "no hierarchy!!"

>>16342983
Stop ignoring her evidence just because she’s trans bro. Not everything is about you

>>16342995
There is no evidence to ignore, retard. There's only baseless conjecture. It's a very simple question I'm asking but anarchist larpies are unable to answer it.

>>16342996
You still haven’t answered why trans people aren’t valid. Funny how that works

>>16343000
I never said they weren't but you just assumed that. Funny how that works.
Now answer the question.

>>16342988
It's not a hierarchy because we change leaders more often (not at all like all these elections we have all the fucking time irl)

>>16343004
“”””they””””” Like they aren’t even human to you. Maybe if you had some basic empathy you could understand her proof

>>16343015
Maybe if you had some basic intelligence you could answer my simple question. Now answer it or fuck off.

>>16343006
Amazing.

>>16342952
It shouldn't matter if you are or aren't, and you're only making it worse for yourself by responding to any suggestion that you might be.

>>16343017
SHE already answered the question, bro. You think you’re tough for trying to make her look bad for no reason? This is why the patriarchy still exists, and by the way I’m also a male feminist, so I could probably kick your ass.

>>16341988
>And where does this NEET get his support?
from you because you'll be my sugar momma.

>>16343027
Where? Not in this thread. Now answer the question or fuck off.

>>16342817
>I have obligations to some wealthy people to attend to tomorrow
???

>>16343032
You think you’re cool telling me to fuck off over the internet? A real man respects a woman and her pronouns. If you talked to me like that irl I’d smack you and make you say sorry. Now read the books she recommended you and learn how to feel empathy for others. Men have this problem where they don’t actually listen to what a woman is saying.

>>16343043
It's called wage slaving, something anarchist larpies love to do

>>16343045
When the warlord insurrection starts and anarchism fails, your holes will be violated first. Now answer the question or fuck off.

>>16342983
the Spainards worked with native enemies of the Aztecs...

>>16343060
Yes, so what would prevent a foreign power to work with those who don't support anarchism to overthrow it?

Bump, how will anarchism prevent foreign invasions and local warlord insurrections?

>>16342463
>if you're making revolution, your only duty is to win. the chinese communists and the vietcong won because they didn't alienate potentially friendly classes.
AND THEY FORCED CAPITALISM DOWN THE MOUTHS OF THE CLASS..