/lit/ - Literature

>>16264792
English

I don’t care

>>16264792
I still don't know the differences between akkusativ, dativ, genitiv, nominativ. Most Germans don't either. I fucking hate it.

>>16264814
Same. Fuck german. I reached C2 in French in 1 year and I'm still stuck at B2 in german after 2 fucking years lmao

>>16264814
german natives know intuitively of course, tho most dont properly use all of them as they should (its justvwhat is being adressed how you moron)

>>16264792
>precision of German
is a meme. People only decided that the German language is precise because the German people are stereotypically precise and adept at engineering and other pursuits where precision is important.
I don’t think English is more or less expressive than any of these other languages. It IS true that you’ll get more out of a work of literature if you read it in its original language instead of English translation, but of course the same goes for someone reading an originally English work of literature translated into their native language.

>>16264857
cope

>>16264847
Really? I find German much easier than French, because at least it doesn't have French's fucked-up verb conjugations where all of the important verbs are irregular. German has very few irregulars or exceptions to its grammar rules which is quite nice.

>>16264852
I live in Germany, dickhead, and I made it through school here.

>>16264871
Im portuguese so French was by design way easier to learn

for me, it's latin

>>16264814
>>16264847
Not trying to brag, but I’ve been studying Russian for like five years and cases were only a problem in the very beginning. At some point, it becomes intuitive enough that you can just read something without thinking “okay, that’s either instrumental singular or dative plural, which means...”. It just becomes natural, as it is for native speakers.

>>16264883
damn you made it through hauptschule mustve been a rough ride, Im not talking about everyone having a solid grasp at the logic of the cases but being able to use/understand them except maybe genitiv

>>16264914
>>16264922
yeah. it's not like I can't talk- I hardly ever make mistakes when I'm talking, but that's because you don't think about it. like you said, it's instinctive. But when I try to write? that still trips me up.

>>16264922
i hate gringos

>>16264898
Based. Master Latin and the rest are piss easy.

>>16264968
native who grew up in BW and went to uni heidelberg mein neger
>>16264922
maybe reading more serious literature will help with that specifically, if not more writing practice perhaps

>>16264985
I mean you only need to master 1 romance language for the rest to be piss easy lmao

>>16265088
whoops meant to tag >>16264960 with the second one
also checking thise onkel adi dubs

>>16264847
>I reached C2 in French in 1 year
Teach me your ways

>>16264792
hugely depends on why you would learn them, take spanish, you could speak to almost every country in south america, german on the other hand, opens only few countries, but these are way wealthier. If you learn a language just to read, then do French or German, either is good

>>16265088
david bist du es amk

>>16265168
ne bruder

>>16264792
there is only commerce and technology, everything else is just gay sex

>>16264792
Here senpai I fixed your pic

>>16264792
Won't matter if you don't have a language you want to learn in the first place. "Realizing that English isn't on top of the throne" won't cut it. You've actually got to be interested in what you're doing, you have to find the language itself interesting, and then also its literature. That's the only way to properly motivate yourself to (self) study. So which interests you the most?
>>16264814
Nominativ: the subject of the sentence or clause
Accusativ: the direct object of the sentence or clause
Genitiv: this one's tricky, but it expresses relationship between objects, ie possession
Dativ: the indirect object ('beneficiary') of the sentence or clause.
In fact that picture is misleading because you would never use "the" in scenarios where German would call for the Genitiv, and generally not where the Dativ is used either.
Let me give you an example in English, which is even less clear than German since the words don't modify. Take this sentence: "I threw (to) Gary Mary's ball." The verb here is to threw. The subject of the sentence, who does the throwing action, is "I" (Nominativ). The object, that which is being thrown, is the ball (Accusativ). The ball is Mary's, so I express that with the possessive "apostrophe s" (Genitiv). The indirect object, the recipient of the ball, is Gary (Dativ).
The easiest way to think about this in both languages is via pronouns. Why is there a difference between I, me, my/mine? Or between er, ihn, sein, ihm? Because there is a difference in the grammatical ROLE that these words play. The differentiation between forms is nothing other than their declension.
>>16264857
You don't know what you're talking about. "Precision of the German people" is a meme and as you call it a stereotype. It's only vaguely accurate, esp. in comparison to other northern Europeans. Meanwhile when people talk about the precision of the German language they're referring to an etymological richness which is embedded into the language itself, which is present in English too but which in German is actually clear and even logical. Compared to the British whose centuries of loanwording and increasing specialization of meaning ended up with a largely obscure vocabulary divorced from the root elements of the words.
>>16264871
Are you English-speaking? German and English conjugation have much more in common than between English and French conjugation.

>>16265094
Kek the only hard one is French. (fuck the spelling)
>>16265377
OP BTFOd

>>16264792
>It lacks the precision of German and the sonority of the Romance languages.
This is your problem.
You have this false dichotomy of Romance languages are flowery and high class, while Germanic languages are sturdy and precise, like a scalpel.

It's time to learn Finnish :DD

>>16265431
>Meanwhile when people talk about the precision of the German language they're referring to an etymological richness which is embedded into the language itself, which is present in English too but which in German is actually clear and even logical. Compared to the British whose centuries of loanwording and increasing specialization of meaning ended up with a largely obscure vocabulary divorced from the root elements of the words.
Or maybe the fact that we have so many loanwords in English makes it more precise, because we have so many cases where a group of words may have the same denotative meaning, strictly speaking, but slightly different connotations.

>>16264814
>der Genitiv ist dem Dativ sein Tod
Dunno what it means but I remember it. On a second look it seems almost like an esoteric riddle

>>16265743
Most of the time an overly complicated language isn’t a good language but an... overly complicated one.

>>16265751
other was around, most normal speakers, ie unread plebs, are mostly using dativ where youd usually properly use genitiv
der dativ ist des genitiv tod and such

>>16265834
Couldn't you say
>Der Dativ ist des Genitiv's Tod
Or is that inaccurate?

>>16265743
is there a similar pic for hungarian?

>>16265845
yes sorry I forgot the s there, no apostrophy tho

>>16265867
>des Genitivs
Then. But wouldn't des Genitives work too ?

>>16265431
>a largely obscure vocabulary divorced from the root elements of the words.
that's something that's always bothered me about english, despite it being my native language. we have the whole treasury of latin and greek to rummage through for vocabulary, but the resulting word is something that you have to conscious think about in order for it to "make sense". like, we all have vague familiarity with the vast number of latin/greek affixes but identifying the affixes with their actual definitions instead of just understanding the word as a whole is a fairly uncommon operation and most people don't think much about it. thus, for example "neologism" is understood as a word in itself rather than a construction of parts basically meaning "new" "word" and "thing". people who care to can easily deconstruct it to get that, but it requires conscious thought and doesn't come naturally just by being a speaker of english

>>16265898
a bit of an aged way of going about it but yes

>>16265931
>people who care to can easily deconstruct it to get that, but it requires conscious thought and doesn't come naturally just by being a speaker of english
I think that's true of every language. Even without consciously thinking about it, the connotations and linguistic lineage are still influencing how any given passage is received by the reader/listener. For most people it will remain a subconscious factor that they wouldn't be able to recognize or explain unless pointed out to them; and for people who care about language or poetry, and the rigorous depth of information encoded into words and their relations, it's all pretty evident and one will naturally pick up on the subtleties through experience with reading, writing, and speaking.

>>16265938
Dacht ich mir.

>>16264814
>Most Germans don't either
I have never once met a single naitive speaker that didn't know the differences and I honestly can't imagine anyone, that has recieved even most rudimentary education, not to know it.

>>16264898
Based!

>>16265746
There is no comparison here, or if there is, it's between two different things. No doubt there's an advantage to having distinct loanwords. Shakespeare shows us that. But being precise with how you define a word is really possible in any language, because usage is arbitrary in such a way that an author (esp. a philosopher) can just take a certain word and give it a new sense that wasn't necessarily there in the first place. This is what happens anytime a philosopher like Locke or Hume or Hobbes writes a treatise: they begin by defining their terms. This even extends to simply loaning the world for purposes of writing; like Kant and his a priori/a posteriori, like Nietzsche and his vertu'. Essentially not having a word for a SPECIALZIED meaning isn't a serious objection because there is nothing preventing the creation of a new word, or the adaption of an old one, to encompass that specific meaning. I'd be willing to bet that more than a few of the loanwords you're thinking of in English entered the language in no other way than a group of poets deciding that it sounded cool, or could think of it a useful in a way. Now what is a problem for precision in a language, I think, is a disconnect from the basic elements of a language where the basic prefixes and suffixes don't have a logic to their own, and therefore don't admit the same possibilities of exaction and creation as would German or Latin for instance. I'll give some examples later maybe, if the thread's still around

>>16266243
yeah, I guess that's why there was an entire super trendy book on how fucking obnoxious the system is that nobody would shut up about for six whole months.

>>16265743
what kind of heretical language is this

>>16266381
You know how Wall-E achieved sentience just by being on earth alone for hundreds of years?

Finns did that with language.

>>16266386
so is finish kind of like capital? has it attained ifs own sentience?

>>16266275
I see your point, but arguably a lot of loaned affixes ARE intuitively understood and take on a life of their own in English. For example, there’s non-, sub-, multi-, bi-,-ize, -fy, and -tion. That being said, I think you’re right that Latin and German are better at forming multi-morpheme words that are comprehensible for pretty much every layperson who speaks/spoke those languages than English is. I know that Russian is also pretty good at making compound words too.

>>16265834
>most normal speakers, ie unread plebs, are mostly using dativ where youd usually properly use genitiv
It's the opposite. Only midwits use the genitive where the dative has been the appropriate case for centuries and fall for people like Bastian Sick with his prescriptivist bs.

>>16266336
is that the "dativ genitiv tod" shit youre refering to? are they worth looking into or shoot in the head tier for well read people who love german

>>16266404
nobody is advocating for overusage of it

>>16266402
English can still do some degree of agglutination ("unwholesomeness"), it just only does it with Germanic components and prefixes/suffixes ("anti-unwholesomenessation").

The question I always have in these threads is: How would you change English? Go the Anglish route and fill in the gaps with agglutination? "Unlearn English and just use this European language instead" is not an option.

What would English with only (Greco-)Latin words look like?

>>16266413
die süddeutsche was all over that shit

>>16265377
Fewer, dumbass.

>>16264792
Haha :)

>>16264814
I sat here for a moment wondering how the fuck anyone could have difficulty understanding German cases. Then I remembered

1. I studied Latin at school, and Latin has the same cases (inherited from their common Proto-Indo-European ancestor) plus a few extra, so German grammatically seems like a simplified version of Latin
2. I've also studied Japanese, and fucking everything look simple compared to Japanese grammar.

If you learn the Latin cases then you've basically learned all the German cases, the basic meanings are apply for both:

Basic
Nominative - subject
>*The dog* bites the boy

Accusative - object
>The dog bites *the boy*

Dative - indirect object
>The boy gives *the girl* the ball

Genitive - possession
>It is *the boy's* ball

one step above basic
Accusative - motion towards
>I walk to the garden

Dative - location
>I am in the garden


>>16264985
That is so fucking true.

>>16265535
>Kek the only hard one is French. (fuck the spelling)
Even fucking truer. I know English gets a bad rap for having shit spelling but at least we don't have a bunch of homophones as part of our essential basic grammar that we insist on spelling differently for no reason.
Je peux parler
J'ai parlé
Je l'ai parlée
Je les ai parlées
The various iterations of 'parler' are pronounced identically, yet watch French speakers bitch if don't treat them as distinct when you're writing them.

Basically, French is to Latin what ebonics is to English. Except the French don't want to admit this, so they insist on preserving in the written language grammatical features inherited from Latin that their bastard pidgin tongue has almost eliminated in actual verbal usage.

>>16266504
KEK

>>16266524
You think that's bad?
Russian has 16 cases
And 5 genders
(insert attack helicopter joke or the like here)

(in schools they only teach 6 and 3 respectively, for simplicity, as do probably for foreigners, but if you do that, you'll get really bedazzled when you encounter a case you haven't seen before.)

>>16264801
fpbp

>>16264792
Ithkuil

>>16266524
>Basically, French is to Latin what ebonics is to English. Except the French don't want to admit this, so they insist on preserving in the written language grammatical features inherited from Latin that their bastard pidgin tongue has almost eliminated in actual verbal usage.

The French will never be nothing more than dirty Gauls who butchered their overlord's language.

>>16266623
dont forget that theyre also germanic franks in mediterranian denial

>>16264792
>English isn't on top of the throne

>>16266637
They are not
t. actually germanic

>>16266651
Looks like German isn't very precise either. Where did this meme come from?

>>16266651
MA?

>>16266723
Massachusetts

>>16266723
Mandarin

>>16264985
Spanish can also be really tricky.

>>16264792
>It lacks the precision of German and the sonority of the Romance languages.
This is an 18+ website. Please comeback when you've matured.

>>16264914
The Russian genitive can be pretty random. The instrumental case is based though, it makes a lot of intuitive sense.

There is no "most" literary language, but there are several hyper important languages. These are (in no particular order):
1. English.
2. French.
3. Italian.
4. Latin.
5. Greek.
Other languages are of lesser important. These are the top five.

>>16265743
That chart in the middle is misleading. It's just basic agglutination. I don't speak a word of Finnish, but you can tell that -jä is the equivalent of English -er, -tellä means "repeatedly", and so on. It's like how you can break "antidisestablishmentarianism" into "anti-", "dis-", "establish", "-ment", "-arian", and "-ism".

>>16267043
>Italian
lel

>>16264792
le français sans hésiter

>>16267043
Ummm based

>>16267016
Why do you think it’s random?

>>16267043
Correct opinion

>>16267127
it sometimes appears after negations in a way I don't really get. Also the way it's used to mean 'some of' or with numbers

start w/ the Greeks

>>16267583
>it sometimes appears after negations in a way I don't really get.
It sort of makes the negation stronger. You can also think of it in terms of the definite/indefinite article in English. E.g., «Я нe вижy мocтa» (I don’t see a bridge/any bridges) versus «Я нe вижy мocт» (I don’t see the bridge)

>Also the way it's used to mean 'some of'
That confused me too when I first started noticing it, but doesn’t give me any trouble now.

>or with numbers
That’s for sure one of the most frustrating parts of Russian, next to the weird formation of perfective/imperfective verbs, the prefixes that have several different unrelated meanings, and the FUCKING irregular stress patterns which mess me up all the time.

>>16267839
>perfective/imperfective verbs
Bro I am 100% hopeless at these, I am just never going to be able to remember every single pair. ty for the explanation of the genitive

>>16266583
there was a /lang/ autist learning ithkuil... really really smart but you could just tell he was a young sperg

>>16267738
The point of "starting" with the Greeks is to eventually stop reading them too, isn't it?

>>16267885
I think every student of Russian feels exactly like that when they find out about perfective/imperfective. Rest assured, there are certain patterns with those that you’ll eventually start to notice. But there are also a lot of exceptions, and there are imperfective verbs with multiple perfective forms with different meanings. It does get easier though, trust me!

>>16267960
Yes, so that you may learn how to think and judge.

>>16267960
No. The point of starting with the Greeks is to make you read Plato. You can spend your whole life on Plato.

>>16266651
Looks like the Chinese win again

>>16266651
Only the Eternal Anglo could conceive that the worth of a language is decided by its information rate or any other utilitarian measure...

>>16266504
what's that bottom flag

>>16264814
Both Latin and old Germanic languages have decayed so badly that their heirs now don't even understand such simple grammar. This would never be a problem for Balto-Slavic speakers. Should Lithuanian be the official language of Europe?

>>16266524
>Basically, French is to Latin what ebonics is to English.

>>16264792
I have a feeling this needs Slav language representation as well. Croatian, for example, has seven declensions. It's probably why you can instantly spot someone who's not a native speaker.

>>16265931
Linguistic purism is a logical neccessity

>>16269104
It only has 3: muž, muža (o), žena, žene (a), kost, kosti (i), like all contemporary Slavic languages (save for the ones which dropped the noun inflections).

There was a u-declension in OCS, but it went extinct, with only several atavistic remains (e.g. Czech -ovi in o-declension animate dative). It exists in Lithuanian though: sūnus, sūnaus.

>>16267043

why would you put italian there

t. a confused Italian

>>16269187
Pseuds see Dante and think it's impressive

>anglos thinking latin is hard or "complete"
>anglos thinking that cases are hard
that's cute

>>16269104

we dont have definite pronouns tho, but you could add in our demonstratives I guess

but yeah theres whacky verb stuff too like the imperfect and aorist, tonal accents, so like attic greek w/o middle/passive, in addition to all usual "russian" features like aspect

a small language, sadly

>>16269187
The Divina Commedia is one of the greatest epic poems in history, the only things comparable of Homer's epics and Ovid's Metamorphoses. Him, Bocaccio, Cavalcanti, etc. rank Italian as a top five literary language. That and Italian is probably the most beautiful of Europe's languages.

>>16269233

Sure sure, if you wanna jerk off to very old language, it's great. If you're Italian and are force-fed this in school then it sucks

You still have Svevo, Pirandello, Eco, Buzzati, and fun new stuff but idk if it merits putting the language so high up

I'd replace it with German probably

>>16269318
>You still have Svevo, Pirandello, Eco, Buzzati
To be honest I don't really read much prose. My list is mostly informed by poetry, which is the peak of literature and its greatest expression.
>I'd replace it with German probably
German poetry is pretty mediocre. Goethe is the best German writer. I don't think he's enough to prop up the language in terms of literature. If you want to factor in philosophy, which I don't think we should when debating literary languages since really only poetry and fiction prose should come into play, then German is more important than Italian. I'll give you that. All that aside, German will be as beautiful as Italian. On the whole, German is quite an ugly language.
>If you're Italian and are force-fed this in school then it sucks
Yeah, I could imagine. I had a lot of American writers ruined for me because of that too. I later on came to appreciate them outside of a school setting though.

>>16269333
>German will be as beautiful as Italian
*will never be

>>16265103
Be native in a romance language and study at least 3-4 hours everyday
Thats it

>>16269348
Italian is by far the worst romance language. Its so fucking annoying to hear lmao

>>16269348
the pure amount of cope

Anyone has advice for someone who feels stuck in his progression in the English language?When i encounter a word that I don’t know, I tend to guess its meaning by context but i find that using dictionary while reading “ruin” the flow? Would poetry be better to build my vocabulary instead of novels? Or maybe short novels?

>>16266651
Nips utterly btfo.

I've read Wheelock's Latin and Wheelock's Latin Reader. What should I read next?

>English
THE

>Latin
-

>>16270240
Sometimes you just have to deal with the grind. Poetry will just ruin you, since much of the vocabulary and phrasing doesn't appear in normal usage. Stick with novels; what you're doing right now is the only real way to learn.

If you're using a paper dictionary, switch to using your phone, or better yet a laptop. If you keep a [native language] - English dictionary open you only need a second to type the word in and translate it; much faster than looking stuff up the traditional way.

You might find it easier to change the genre of novels you're reading. If you're struggling with literary novels, try reading crime fiction; the prose tends to be straight-forward and un-embellished, and you don't generally find a lot of invented or highly technically terms like you do in Fantasy and Science-Fiction. Then when you're confident with that, start reading Booker Prize winners or whatever.

>>16270374
Lingua Latina Per Illustrata

>>16264914
Even after a decade of learning Czech I still struggle. Sometimes the case is intuitively obvious, but there are many verbs which seem to determine the case of the object somewhat arbitrarily. You learn these more from getting used to hearing it, but if it's a verb you don't use often, or one that takes a different case in different circumstances, I'm flying blind.

>>16264792
Is it a good idea to try to learn German and Latin at the same time or should I do one then the other?

>>16270511
No, it would be best to learn Japanesse too at the same time.

Lojban
Ithkuil if you want to ascend to Godhood

Obligatory

>>16270678
>Spanish to God
Ew.

>>16270630
Not enough of a weeb for that.
Seriously though, which is faster, concurrent or consecutive?

>>16270726
It's best to focus on one language at a time. I've learned four languages in the past four and a bit years, and I've definitely noticed a decline in my ability to assimilate a new language when I'm still learning previous ones.

>>16270842
Wow, so one per year, very impressive. How close to native-level fluency are we talking?
And yeah I had feared that would be the answer. Sorry Latin, you're going to have to wait a while.

>>16270877
>How close to native-level fluency are we talking?
Not even close. I can follow a conversation in Spanish and German now, read a book (while having to refer to a dictionary) and take part in online discussions. I got hung up on Japanese so I'm still pretty novice there, although I'm gradually building up my stock of kanji. And with three other languages to work on French is only going so-so, but I only started that back in February.

I never really planned to become native-level fluent, I just wanted to achieve basic competency so I could read foreign literature; and because I felt I needed a more productive hobby. Frankly, I can barely hold a conversation in English so trying to become fully fluent in a foreign language just so I can sit in autistic silence while people talk around me would be rather pointless.

Trust me, pick one language and devote all your energies to it if you want to be fluent.

>>16270934
Well thanks for your honesty lol, that is a very productive hobby, and yeah I think I will pick one as much as it saddens me.
Good luck on working on your languages as well as your English conversational abilities ;)

>>16265743
>You have this false dichotomy of Romance languages are flowery and high class, while Germanic languages are sturdy and precise, like a scalpel.
that's true tho

>>16269318
Italian has a much longer and richer literary tradition than German. Both are important, but in importance for modern Europe it's hard to deny Italian in favor of anything but French. Recognizable "European" culture essentially begins with Dante and Boccaccio

Por que todos los Americanos de /lit/ siempre quieren aprender Aleman y Francés cuando Español podria ser mas utilizado y tambien es una idoma muy interestante?

English has the most words and no gendered word bullshit so I think it's the best

>>16264792
Polish

>>16266524
pseud detected. Both Je l'ai parlée and Je les ai parlées are agrammatical sentences that don't mean anything. You don't speak french.

>>16267043
>not including german
you can't argue with the fact that german is one of the most important languages for the literature of the late 18th through early 20th century.

>>16266524
>fucking everything look simple compared to Japanese grammar.
Japanese grammar is the second easiest thing about it behind the pronunciation.

>>16271691
>N-NO YOU CAN'T MAKE FUN OF OUR GARBAGE ORTHOGRAPHY F-FUCKING ANGLO P-PSEUDS
Don't you have five unused letters to be cramming into a monosyllabic word, Jacques?

>>16271666
my ancestors used to rake pig shit in schwaben, i'm renouncing american degeneration and embracing my family's roots in Western tradition and civilization

>>16271666
Dios mio... el diablo

>>16271691
Okay so just put any other verb which takes avoir and can take an object in there then retard, you're the pseud for nit-picking his (valid) point

>>16271691
??
Je l'ai parlé
I spoke to her/him
Je les ai parlé
I spoke to them
He's wrong that they're pronounced identical though, and of course you don't modify parlé with avoir. That just seems like a typo on his part

>>16271756
I'm not a frogman, but doesn't that kind of dative use take lui or am I remembering incorrectly?

>>16271756
I spoke to him in French: Je lui ai parlé
I spoke to them in French: Je leur ai parlé

The guy is a pseud, he doesn't know basic French.

>>16271691
>>16271789
So is he wrong that parler, parlé, parlée, and parlées are all valid forms of the verb? No, of course he isn't because if he was then that's what you would have criticized him on. In fact he missed a few; parlais, parlait, and probably a couple more i can't remember. And they really are all pronounced exactly the same. Go on, paste them into google translate and have the machine voice read them out. There may be the tiniest difference in stress but there's no way that's ever used in the spoken language unless the speaker is making the effort to enunciate.

>>16271789
To be fair if you just change parler with any verb that takes avoir and can have a direct object his point is valid.

>>16271705
I grant German an important place in non-fiction prose and scholarship, but in terms of poetry and fiction prose (actual literature), it just isn't an important language. That said, I can't knock someone who wants to pick up German and work through Goethe, Heine, etc. If your focus is on true literature, then you'd be better off learning any of the five that I suggested. If your focus is on philosophy, then German is a great option. I personally don't care much for philosophy and I leave it to lesser minds.

>>16264814
Studying German made me a better writer of English.

>>16271875
Yes he is wrong, only one form is valid depending on context. He doesn't understand the difference between spoken and written language. The first is a natural occurrence, contextual cues are always there so speakers understand each other. The second is an artificial construct and the many forms are there to make sure there are no misunderstanding, Any reader or writer of any language know misunderstandings are way more frequent in the written form, hence the added formalities. This is linguistics 101, educate yourself.

>There may be the tiniest difference in stress but there's no way that's ever used in the spoken language unless the speaker is making the effort to enunciate.

No native french speaker will agree with you on this. I'm baffled you would mistake parler for parlais and vice versa. There are clearly distinct words, you would need to speak with a large object in your mouth to render these indistinguishable.

>>16271905
He will be right in a thousand years if ebonics is still spoken, it will become a new language born out of a variant of English. But why prognosticate when there are valid examples today: French is to Latin what English is to French, some strange créole born out the synthesis of interacting cultures.

Also, only literate french people will bitch at you if you misconjugate those verbs. Go on French social media and you will find that most people don't use them correctly and certainly don't chastise each other for it.

>>16272101
>French is to Latin what English is to French
I am so tired of people making this mistake. English is no more a creole of French than Japanese is a creole of English. Borrowing loanwords doesn't make a language a creole, it has to use a simplified version of the original language's grammar.

>>16271875
parler: parr-el
parlé: par-ley
parlais: par-ley but without avoir before it so distinct
parlait: par-ley-t

>>16266452
English could refill its pronoun table, particularly second person plural, and probably have a few more declensions and conjugations. But English is quite effective as a mutt language and with some effort can host beautiful prose as is.

>>16264792
>English call Germans Germans
>French call Germans Allemand
>Germans call Germans Deutsch
The fuck?

>>16264792
On the contrary, English is incredibly sonorous. It is the language of poetry.

English is the best language for the sole reason that the most things are translated into English, the most people speak it, it has the most translators, and it's useful just about everywhere. Of course it's not nearly as pretty as French, Japanese, Icelandic, or Italian. Of course it doesn't have the historical value of Mandarin, Hindi, or Greek. And, of course, learning other languages is extremely valuable. But at least right now, nothing is as useful as English, and it's for that reason it's the best.

>>16264857
I don't know. I think Henry James' work is better in German.

>>16272317
40% of English vocabulary come from old French. Your comparison to Japanese is disingenuous and dishonest. Japanese never received such an important influence from English, or any other European language. English is a créole invented so French lords could communicate with their Saxon subjects. Deal with it or keep coping

>it has to use a simplified version of the original language's grammar.
Only in your head.

>>16264857
>engineering
>precise
Nigga they round E and Pi both to 3

>>16264857
I don't know. I think Henry James' work is better in French.

>>16269349
>>16264847
what was your preferred method of studying? did you just read or do activities or use some kind of program? Currently studying Italian and I know almost all of the concepts but I need practice.

>>16272401
Depends on the speaker. Brits? Yea. Modern Americans/joggers? No.
>>16272438
That's just taking into account one variable.

>>16271677
That just makes English a tranny language. Chad languages are gendered.

>>16270719
cope

>>16272387
English call the Dutch, Dutch
Germans call the Dutch, Holländer
French call the Dutch, les Pays-Bas

>>16272685
The French call them "Néerlandais/Néerlandaise", actually. Les Pays-Bas is the country.

>>16272584
No, it's putting one variable above all others. I mentioned other variables, and pointed out that they're less important.

Put another way, English is currently the best language because of access - right now, speaking English gives you the most access.

>>16272438
>a*glos
>utilitarianism
name a better duo

>>16264792
Learn the Ancient Scots language.
Powerful. Strong. Wide.
I heard a great quote about it once. This is a paraphrase.
"While English is common and found everywhere it is like a pine. Weak and breaks under the lightest load. Meanwhile Scots is like the mighty oak. Rarer but it can withstand the strongest load that it will ever find."

>>16271666
Pues, onions estadounidense/angloparlante nativo y hablo español fluidamente pero creo que es mas importante elegir una lengua que le gusta en vez de una mas "util". Si quieres aprender Aleman, aprendela.

>>16272803
onions? puta filtra

>>16272387
All names of different ‘Germanic’ tribes

>>16272803
gringo basado

>>16272768
Lowland Scots? You mean the language that's consistently debated to be an English dialect, and got BTFO by a, singular, gay Christian furry teenager from North Carolina? Why not just learn the parent of both: Old English. Then you get to read Beowulf at least.

>>16272910
>You mean the language that's consistently debated to be an English dialect
It isn't and never has been.
>and got BTFO by a, singular, gay Christian furry teenager from North Carolina?
It wasn't.
>Old English. Then you get to read Beowulf at least.
That's like telling someone who wants to learn French go and learn Latin. You must be incredibly stupid.

>>16272945
>t. seething Scot cuck.
Some gay, furry, teenage American raped your language for a decade in tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles and no one even noticed or cared. Language or dialect (some call it a pidgin lol) is irrelevant: Lowland Scots diverged from English during the Middle English period. Imagine being such a cuck (and Scotsmen are self-hating cucks) that you fetishize English's nearly dead brother as a source of national pride. Have some balls and learn the Gaelic you Anglophilic coward. Of course, that would be against the Scots' dream of becoming responsible global citizens, no longer mired in the sin of ethnic pride. Lowland Scots is a copout. Your own English pidgin to feign ethnicity while denouncing any real deviation from globohomo culture.

>>16267043
Swap Italian and German desu.
Latoids havent done that much since antiquity, where as the g*rmans led the reformation

>>16272803
>onions estadounidense
HAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>16271728
>embracing my family's roots in Western tradition and civilization

So you wanna be friends with the turks?

>>16272555
LingQ for vocab
Kobo pocket for reading articles
Podcasts/Tv Shows for listening (with double subtitle addon)
For writing I usually make a huge list of topics and then try to write 2 full pages each day about 1 of those topics

Hope it helps

If you want the absolute peak of what a language can do with grammaticalcase, you need to look at something like Tsez or Kayardild.

>>16266524
>>16271875
Silent final letter indicate how the liaison should be made.

J'ai parlé à Madame =/= Je parlais z-à Madame =/= Il parlait t-à Madame =/= Je voudrais parler r-à Madame.

French orthography is already almost as simplified as it could be without losing information, it's no where as far as the gratuitous utter mess that is english orthography where barely a vowel is pronounced as it's written. There's literally no way to guess words pronunciation, the only way to make it is to memorize them.

>>16272476
50% or so of Japanese vocabulary comes from Chinese, yet no one calls it a Chinese creole

>>16264792
>desu
Germans are actually Japanese!?

>>16270240
Refrain from using the dictionary unless it's absolutely necessary. Stick to reading short novels and understanding things from context. Spending time on the English side of the internet (which is most of it) also helps a lot.

>>16272476
That would make *Middle English* a creole, not Modern English. In fact, there is theory of the origin of Middle English (largely unsupported) claiming just this, called the "Middle English creole hypothesis". Either way, Modern English is not a creole.

>>16264898
basus es

95% of this board reads literature in English making it objectively the most /lit/ language

>>16269333
>German poetry is pretty mediocre
Denn sie alle, die Tag und Jahre der Sterne, sie waren

Diotima! um uns innig und ewig vereint;

>>16272476
>it has to use a simplified version of the original language's grammar.
>Only in your head.
That's literally how linguists define a creole. Creoles start from a pidgin language that is a simplified version of an extant language, including a simplified grammar and reduced vocabulary. The creole language then evolves as a natural language once people start learning the pidgin as their first language.

However much vocabulary it borrows from French or any other language, the core grammar and vocabulary of English derive from Old Germanic, not a simplified version of Medieval French. Nor was English's vocabulary ever a pared-down version of French; indeed, French was used to enrich a large existing English vocabulary rather than replace it. Compare that to actual French creoles like Haitian, which is essentially French with a minimal African substrate. There's a better argument to be made that English is a creole of the Anglo-Saxon dialects and Old Norse than French.

Think about it: if a creole meant any language with loanwords then just about every language could be considered a creole. Do you really want to get into how many English loanwords are used in modern French? Defining creoles just by percentage of foreign loanwords is stupid, because it would necessarily involve a completely arbitrary cut-off point.

Also
>Japanese never received such an important influence from English, or any other European language
At a bare minimum, 10% of modern Japanese's vocabulary is English-derived, but so many slang terms have entered the language that in casual conversation young Japanese people might be using a vocabulary set where 30% of the words are English loanwords. And, as >>16275180 says, 50 - 60% of Japanese vocabulary consists of Chinese loanwords, and no one regards it as a Chinese creole (again, because the grammar is still uniquely Japanese).

>>16264814
Only plebs don’t know the difference

>>16264792
sicilian

>>16276152
Sicilian is about as much of a language as Scots is.

>>16272317
uh oh... sorry but now you're just coping...

>>16276176
you just exposed yourself as a pseud, you dumb bitch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaA_awri7cI

>>16265743
>the language with the greatest number of cases seems to be Finnish with about twenty
KEK eat shit

>>16266524
I routinely refer to French as "Alabama Latin".

>>16273121
>Some gay, furry, teenage American raped your language for a decade in tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles and no one even noticed or cared
Wait what's this about?

>>16272476
>>16276228
>t. ignorant frogs
go study linguistics, dumbass eurotrash

>>16276427
definitely using that from now on

>>16264814
nominative: subject
akkusative: object
dativ: indirect object
genitiv: possesion

I (subject) threw the ball (object) over the top (indirect object) of the hill (genitive).

>>16276444
There were threads on /lit/, /his/, and /int/ a few days ago, plus a reddit post.
https://www.businessinsider.com/scots-wikipedia-page-american-scottish-accent-2020-8

>>16276584
oh my god. THANK YOU

>>16272329

The first two and the last two are pronounced the same.

It's a créole if it's mostly spoken by low IQ people.

Ebonics = necessarily a créole
European languages = can never be a créole

>>16276584
Ich habe den Ball über die Gipfel des Berges geworfen
>die Gipfel
Preposition takes accusative

>>16272329
>>16276617
they're all pronounced the same unless the speaker is making an effort to enunciate. I guarantee you if you recorded a french person speaking, cut out the verbs and played them back, you would not be able to tell the difference between the various different forms.

>parlais: par-ley but without avoir before it so distinct
That's the point I'm trying to make: they all rely on auxiliary verbs, pronouns, or other grammatical indicators around them to make it clear which form is being used. I'm not saying you can't understand the difference, I'm saying you can't hear the difference and there is no point in spelling them differently.

There's nothing like studying French to give you a true appreciation for the beauty of the German language.

>>16276762
wouldnt it be more something like
>ich habe den ball über den hochpunkt (cant think of a better word rn tho Im sure you would only use spitze for a mountsin not a hill) des hügels geworfen

>>16276597
>according to a report from Motherboard's Edward Ongweso Jr. The matter was uncovered by a Reddit user on r/Scotland.
I'm pretty sure it started on /his/ a few days ago. Then it was posted on reddit. Then it made its way to online news sites, then more respectable online news sites, then finally to the mainstream media.

At this point the whole news media is like a retarded game of Chinese whispers that starts on 4chan, and ends up in the mainstream a week later a stripped down, misunderstood version of what was originally posted.

>>16276965
See >>16274641
Moreover in some accents parlais and parlé are pronounced differently.

>>16264792

Declensions in those languages are basic af anyways who cares

>>16274641
>>16276990
I know for some words the silent final letter matters for how liaisons are made, but with verbs the final letter seems to be usually silent regardless of whether it's followed by a vowel. I never remember hearing the 't' in 'Il parlait t-à Madame', and I checked it just now with a few text-to-speech readers and French lessons on Youtube, and none of them pronounce the 't'

>in some accents parlais and parlé are pronounced differently.
well, okay, but shouldn't standard French orthography reflect the standard French accent?

>>16276397
eat shit pussylips

>>16264792
As a German native speaker i like English because its denser. Translating text from German to English usually reduces it by like a third in length.
I also hate speaking high-German because im used to a local dialect that flows a lot more nicely and sounds less stilted.

>>16277065
I know for some words the silent final letter matters for how liaisons are made, but with verbs the final letter seems to be usually silent regardless of whether it's followed by a vowel. I never remember hearing the 't' in 'Il parlait t-à Madame', and I checked it just now with a few text-to-speech readers and French lessons on Youtube, and none of them pronounce the 't'

In most formal speech, typically theatre, liaisons are almost systemically made. Now you're right that colloquial french often eludes them, but anyway that information would be lost if all those forms were written as parlé.

>well, okay, but shouldn't standard French orthography reflect the standard French accent?

When french was standardised the difference was alive and well, confusion came later. Personally I notice when speakers pronounce their ai as é.

>>16264792
Le français évidemment

>>16264814
I’m sorry, but the difference is very simple. Casus also exist in English except it has mostly the same form. How hard is it to understand the difference between a direct and an indirect object?
Every German knows btw

English was the language spoken in the Tower of Babel

>>16268860
french

>>16272068
Read Hölderlin you pseud

>>16264814
Des Franzosen (Gen.) Land (Nom.) fiel den Deutschen (Dat.) nach nur 6 Wochen in die Hände (Akk.).

>>16276176
lol wrong

>>16277923
>was
will be.