/lit/ - Literature

>>16236232
No

>>16236232
Oh look trash

boring as shit lmao

I'm going to get on my knees and thank Indra I wasn't born as this person

>>16236706
You sound like an ignorant buffoon.

>>16236706
Why?

>>16236147
>>16236232
>>16236261
>>16236359
>>16236643
second-hand embarrassment from this level of samefaggotry

>>16236755
Why so salty?

>>16236147
>WE WUZ BRAHMINS AND SHIET

>>16236737
Seems like a boring life, lived not though themselves but through an idea of how the ancients may have lived. I hope this person is happy though

>>16236873
They ain't Aryans

>>16236910
Hinduism is the last surviving major trace of Indo-European religious thought which hasn’t been reduced to a tiny minority like Zoroastrianism

>>16236920
People always talk about Indo-Europeans as if they were a single monolithic group with one religion or set of ideas, but surely every tribe or group or whatever probably had different conceptions of the religious rituals and stories, like how Hinduism actually contains many different ideas, some contradictory and some compatible. People just like to think there is one true religion that is theirs that has been lost and can be found again but I really don't think there is, I think this is a cope.

>>16236920
Correct

>>16237072
Just because there are a wide array of beliefs united under the umbrella of Hinduism does nothing to change the fact that there are still identifiable common Indo-European myths, deities and religious attitudes which are found in an arc spanning from Europe to India, OP’s pic has multiple books in it which cover that exact topic and which give countless examples

>>16236894
do you think this of everyone who studies history?

>>16237231
Yes there are common themes, motifs and images, what I am saying is that it's a big leap to say there was one religion which they all came from (even if they shared a language) which is the 'true religion', which is what a lot of people who study proto-indo-european culture, language and religion desperately want there to be but cannot prove. Because every time there are similarities they say it proves there's an underlying religion, and every time there are differences they claim the differences are a degeneration or a lesser version of the myths or whatever. It just seems to me to be a massive cope.

>>16237254
Yes

>>16237321
> there was one religion which they all came from (even if they shared a language) which is the 'true religion', which is what a lot of people who study proto-indo-european culture, language and religion desperately want there to be but cannot prove
Nobody in this thread has claimed that as a fact, maybe you should take up your gripes with the people who actually say that by emailing or writing them instead of complaining in random threads about Indo-European books where nobody is claiming that. If one goes back to the oldest identifiable Indo-European group who the rest are descended from, assuming that there was one IE group who then proliferated into others, then their religious beliefs could very well constitute the ‘original Indo-European religion’, and this is hardly a controversial or far-fetched proposition but of course we don’t have enough information to do this as of now and its speculative.

>>16237383
People don't have to say it, it's obvious. You believe it as well, don't you anon? That there was one original indo-european religion and as you're descended from those people it's your 'real' religion. Do you pray to Zeus? Do you sacrifice cows? Do you watch Survive the Jive? Or are you actually him?

>>16236147
bump

>>16237339
Eh

>>16236147
https://www.docdroid.net/1ZaiMY9/savitri-devi-son-of-the-sun-the-life-and-philosophy-of-akhnaton-king-of-egypt-1946-pdf

>>16236894
>I hope this person is happy though
no you don't

>>16236147
Nice collection. Are you a scholar?

>>16236147
How do you cope with the fact that any Indo-European reconstruction beyond language isn’t taken seriously by anyone in academia? Even Watkins goes far too much with the scant evidence he has. Keep LARPing bro!

>>16240638
I am a scholar, and a gentleman.

>>16240874
Are you joking? These are all academic books.

>>16236147
No Dumezil?

>>16240991
Which one, anon?

>>16240977
Academic books with little followup in the past 20 years. Who has followed up on “”Indo-European Poetics?”” Nobody! Because the comparative method used in reconstructive linguistics cannot be extended to poetry or religion at all. M. L. West’s is salvageable but he himself only intended the book to be a “note-book” of sorts of his various theories over the years and even he only identifies the Græco-Indo-Iranian bit to be of much use. As for the rest they’re woefully out of date, scepticism has been the norm for 30 years or more now. As Colin Renfew put it, any reconstruction of this sort is inhabiting a sort of “dream world.”

>>16240996
Any really. Mitra-Varuna, Destiny of a King, Archaic Roman Religion.

You might also unironically enjoy some Evola.

So I actually am kinda curious about some of this, but whenever I try to look into it, it seems like a buncha bat shit, weird LARPing, LSD style, "we're all one thing" with a heavy dash off occultism, old-school Jung, and white nationalism. And that keeps turning me off

Like the general real early Indo-Euros sound cool and I wanna read more desu. But I'm not trying to __-pill myself. I'm lame. I just want the normie academic consensuses on stuff.

>>16241055
I see this too. Whenever I find some purportedly good videos about this topic, it turns out that the creators are usually right wing white supremacists. Survive The Jive, for example.

>>16241055
If you read “the horse, the wheel, and language” it is about the best introduction there is, although the author still quotes Dumézil, who coincidentally was a fascist which is why he’s popular here, on some things (which can be understood as the author is an archaeologist not a linguist). Generally any reconstruction that isn’t linguistic isn’t to be trusted, to put it simply linguistics is a science, sound changes occur consistently according to rules, and this is how we can reconstruct the language. The religion and culture? Not so much. There is no standard quotient of change as to how daughter cultures and religions change and so there isn’t much one can do when using them to reconstruct beliefs of people that lived ~6000 ya when the earliest texts are from ~3000 ya. Let’s not forget that cultures also adopt things from their neighbors and inheritance is not the only way “shared” religious traditions can come about. The book I mentioned is cheap and is a good overview, although if you don’t like archeology some chapters might be a drag. I would avoid most other things for the general reader. I think it’s popular online because it’s a sort of “academic” neopaganism where nerds can pretend they are 6000BC BLONDE BLUE EYED CHARIOT WARRIOR CHADS INSEMINATING AND KILLING when the reality is further from the truth.

>>16241086
I don't understand. Do you mean primarily linguistics? I have heard: linguistics, genetics, and archaeology. Is this wrong?

>>16241086
All the discussion about this online (in some YouTube channels) always spirals into "the real Indo Europeans had blond hair and blue eyes" and so on. These whites always say they are the heirs of "Aryans" and reject any Indians claiming to be ones.

>>16241055
What's "desu"?

>>16241105
Linguistics is the way we can reconstruct the language. Using some bits of reconstructed vocabulary like words for flora and fauna we can find a “range” as it were for the language. Archaeology within this area confirms the migration hypothesis from the steppes. Genetics is pretty much useless. Don’t fall for the haplogroup meme.

>>16236920
>>16237138
Wrong, the group of practising Zoroastrians is larger then the few small groups of Brahmins that still perform the old Vedic rituals.

>>16241116
Huh? I am not into the race stuff at all but why is genetics useless?

>>16241110
The Yamnaya culture (late PIE) burials have dark hair and eyes but light skin. These people went on and spread into Europe where people with dark skin but light hair and eyes lived, to put it shortly.

>>16241122
Because there is not a large enough sample size of ancient genetic material + there is no one haplogroup found among Yamnaya burials. Modern-day genetics aren’t useful because of the huge gap between now and then, the haplogroup pools could have changed for a multitude of other reasons since.

>>16241119
Lol no true Scotsman "muh real Indo European rituals", talking as if rituals and cultures don't evolve into something new and those rituals thousands of years ago were the same as when they were created thousands of years ago before them too. Hindus are the last remnants, like it or not.

>>16241086
>>16241002

>>16241187
Daily reminder that Ancient Greek religion was largely imported from Semitic-speaking peoples, and this is something M.L. West (who wrote one of the Indo-European myth book) proved definitively. It’s ok though, keep lifting weights alone and pretending to be a Spartan or “Scythian.” :-)

>>16241207
That was why they were so metaphysically deficient as Guénon astutely observes in his books

>>16241241
There’s no such thing as metaphysics you bargain bin Hegelian.

>>16241266
wrong

>>16241207
fascinating

>>16241207
>Daily reminder that Ancient Greek religion was largely imported from Semitic-speaking peoples, and this is something M.L. West (who wrote one of the Indo-European myth book) proved definitively.

Where does his prove this? What book?

>>16241114
That's actually kind of a long thing. I don't know Japanese, but my understanding, as a weeb in my teenage years is that it means "it is" or something. Like that word that connects an object to whatever it's descriptor is. Like if we were talking about a puppy, you'd say "kawaii desu" for "it's cute/adorable".

So cause it's used often weebs (super weird anime fans) heard in their animes a lot. 4chan started off way back as a weeb hub, it got memed and posted a lot.

If you try to type the abbreviation "t-b-h" with no "-". It'll autocorrect when you post to make it say desu. There's some other weeb slang on here that'll do the same.

>>16241129
>Lol no true Scotsman "muh real Indo European rituals", talking as if rituals and cultures don't evolve into something new and those rituals thousands of years ago were the same as when they were created thousands of years ago before them too. Hindus are the last remnants, like it or not.
If that where true, the last and biggest remnant of indo-europrean paganism, is modern liberalism.

I can easily show the connection: Germanic paganism - Early Germanic Law - Medieval society - Modernity.

>>16241581
The East face of Helicon

>>16241648
thank you

>>16241591
nope. Hinduism still refers to the real Indo Aryan and is a natural evolution of it. You are just salty that Indians are the only Indo Europeans keeping the tradition alive.

>>16241591
Imagine making such a moronic assertion.

>>16241591
Lol no

interesting books. bump

>>16241591
No, because that’s an indirect branching off of a non-religious type of thinking, completely incomparable to the further direct deveipment of religious thought over time within a larger religious tradition. Why are you so desperate to deconstruct anything Indo-European related?

>>16243054
+1

>>16236147

>>16241055
>weird LARPing, LSD style, "we're all one thing" with a heavy dash off occultism, old-school Jung, and white nationalism
except thats all based?

>>16243350
Holy based.

>>16241079
>it turns out that the creators are usually right wing white supremacists. Survive The Jive, for example.
can you give one example of a thing Survive the Jive has said or done which can be described as ‘white supremacist’?

>>16241589
by the way, the word you were looking for is "copula".

>hindu texts
hinduism is a mutt religion. fake aryan garbage sought after by white perennialism. read the vedas, anything beyond that is dravidian larping. indra and rudra not vishnu and shiva ok praise surya

>>16244423
lol nope

>>16244542
t. tamil streetshitter

>>16243831
>being this oblivious

>>16244553
try harder

>>16244565
feel free to make an argument anytime!

>>16244556
why make an accusation if you cant back it up?

and no, taking an interest in Indo-Europeans, the celts, etc and desiring to follow their ways is not white supremacist, and neither is not wanting immigrants

>>16244616
try harder

>>16244832
>being this oblivious (more like, blatantly lying)

>>16244423
>read the vedas, anything beyond that is dravidian larping
This is false, the primary Upanishads are the continuation of and further elaboration of the philosophical and mystical ideas which are already present in the earlier portions of the Vedas, they are just as Aryan as the earlier Vedas and were composed by the same class of Sanskrit-speaking priests and seers who also composed the Vedas. And a lot of later Hindu texts and scriptures are also closely based on the Vedic-Aryan ideas of the primary Upanishads

>>16245012
what did I lie about?

>>16245015
+1

holy based op

>>16244832
They make the accusation because they don't want to engage with ideas. StJ is not a supremacist of any kind but of course dropping a buzzword is the lazy way of dismissing the arguments or ideas of someone you are threatened by

>>16245069
t. oblivious or lying

>>16241002

jaan puhvel and others have demonstrated that comparative mythology most certainly can yield results in this respect, Of course like all disciplines, there are theories that turn out to be wrong - but there is a methodology and when followed correctly the common mistakes of amateurs rarely occur,

Religion is as much a part of human life as language and is similarly conservative for the same reason. People don't randomly change the entire language every year because then no one would be able to understand eachother - religion and myth are like a language of being - a way to understand the whole world and it is demonstrably true that aboriginal australians have oral traditions preserved for over 20,000 years so the idea of common IE religious motifs from 8k ybp is not at all far fetched or even contested by any scholar of comparative religion.

>>16245097

t. paranoid and delusional or lying

what do you guys think of the theory that the founder of the first chinese dynasty left egypt and went to china bringing ideographic writing and chariots? since u dudes are into wacky crank theories, the thing is tho even tho the original was a 19th century orientalist its been revived by a chinese scholar recently, does anyone know who i'm talking about

>>16241648
the op pic has "the orientalizing revolution" which seems to argue the same thing

>https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/02/did-chinese-civilization-come-from-ancient-egypt-archeological-debate-at-heart-of-china-national-identity/

oh yeah this is where i first heard of it, maybe its just a western psyop to try to undermine chinese identity

>>16245222
can you give a tl;dr of that?

>>16245289
recent archeological research that found similarities between some chinese bronze and egyptian bronze has renewed interested in french philologist albert terrien de lacouperie's theory that first chinese dynasty was founded by babylonians

>>16245385
Interesting, thanks. So seems like just speculations at this point?

>>16245408
yeah i mean the real thesis of that article is that history is political and what is deemed true or at least plausible is largely determined by political tastes which of course change, but i just posted it as a pointer to lacouperie

The Ramayana, Yoga Vasishtha

>>16245492
based

>>16245492
Translations?

>>16245672
for the Yoga Vasistha, Venkatesananada's longer translation published by SUNY is the best translation

>>16246502
Thanks. I've never been able to find one for Ramayana. Which one would be recommended?

>>16245111
I would first like to cast doubt on the validity of Aboriginals having oral traditions accurately going back 20k ya and would stress that even if this is the case it does not apply to the Indo-Europeans.

“Comparative Mythology,” as it is by how Puhlvel practiced it, does not and did not take into account that religious motifs, even whole deities, are not simply passed down from generation to generation in the same way languages are, with scientifically proven and observable changes. As an example I will go over various “storm deities” of the Indo-European peoples. First of all are the classic ones - Thor, Perkunas, Perun, Taranis - that can all be said to have a common origin due to their names all meaning “thunder” in their respective languages, the use of hammers or axes as their thunder-weapons, and associations with oaks or some other trees (the last two examples in the case of the first three only). Now, this is a good case for these four deities to be “genetically” related. But the first three of these cultures, Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic, we now know to have occupied a sort of dialectical continuum before and during the early parts of the Indo-European split. Therefore, it’s impossible to say that the four deities independently evolved from some Proto-Indo-European storm-god and not the common thunder-god of the Northwestern Indo-European continuum they were a part of despite speaking different dialects. As for the Celtic one, there is some evidence to suggest that the pre-proto-Celts had a similar continuum with the pre-proto-Germanics so Taranis could have been an inheritance from then - in any case Taranis does not appear in Britain and Ireland so he could have been taken wholesale by the Gauls and the Gauls only from the Germanics at a later date.

But what about Zeus? Thunder-god, Sky-god, king of the gods? Well, Zeus has been definitively proven to be taken wholesale from Semitic mythology (think Ba’al) in M.L. West (another Indo-Europeanist)’s East Face of Helicon, so he cannot be taken to be representative of any ancient tradition except in parts either. His name or even epithet even is not Keruanos which would be expected if he was primarily a god named after thunder. Even so, Greek is further from the Northwest Indo-European languages than it is Indo-Iranic, so any inheritance common to them is doubtful as well.

As for Indra, well, Indo-Iranian mythology is heavily based on BMAC and in the case of Indian native pre-Indian mythology except in the case of ritual and certain “folk” practices and tales (see the Asvins compared to the Greek Dioskoroi or the various horse-sacrifices common in the Vedas) so again only in parts is anything really usable to this end.

Humans are generally alike and will be awed by and scared by and venerate basic things - so comparative mythology with the aim of reconstruction of some genetic ancestor religion is not really helpful at all and is outdated.

>>16236147

>>16248733
The Western Indo-Europeans did not use chariots and did not primarily use violence to conquer and enslave the Old Europeans. I think you as a mutt will be more Old European than anything else anyways, unless you’re from the Caucasus.

>>16248733
Imagine stealing from Indo-Aryans.

>>16248857
Yeah, it's more of an Indo-Aryan/Indian thing.

>>16236147
holy fuck this is based

>>16241086
>noo this is associated with politics I don't like so it has to be wrong!!!
seething

>>16248857
this post is somehow more retarded than the guy you're replying t

>>16249282
Read a book!

>>16249294
How? I think he’s right desu, it’s what was said in Anthony’s book.

>>16249282
This is not what I meant at all. Dumezil was a very important scholar and some of his religious work is still important today. However much of his work on Indo-Europeans, for example the three-fold division of society, is based on his own fascist beliefs in line with traditional pre-1793 French society and his association with Action Francaise and is not held up to be true today because it isn't based on any fact. Keep trying though buddy!

>>16249375
>uses his ideological lens to read someone else as inherently ideological
cope, you're stuck in a matrix, seek help

>>16249387
He literally supported Action Française and Mussolini. Do you think authors can write something somehow separate from some part of their selves? Do you think his association with a party that wanted to return France to three estates does not mean he believed in this himself and included it in his works due to wishful thinking? There’s a reason nobody believes this nowadays and it isn’t due to the fact he was a fascist and has been blacklisted, it’s because he was wrong!

>>16249304
it relies on outdated beliefs about "indoeuropean origins" (if we can even say that was one race). the idea that ie spread from yamnaya/caucasus (or even worse, anatolia) is no longer accepted genetically due to lack of italo celtic or balto germanic markers in yamnaya. corded ware and sintashta are actually more similar genetically. this, among other things, points to yamnaya being more of a brother of the iranians and germanics rather than their father, some have speculated that the descendants of yamnaya can account for all the orphaned languages of the balkans (illryian, dacian, etc). saying west ie did not use chariots is retarded, they're present everywhere from iberia to greece. it is true the chariot was effaced by cavalry, but that still doesn't mean the chariot was non existent. the idea that ie did not use violence is stupid. war is the creator of all great things. many conquered groups most likely submitted out of fear of violence, which has happened countless times throughout history, but the necessity is war nonetheless.

>>16249411
point out flaws in any of his analyses

>>16249411
>Do you think authors can write something somehow separate from some part of their selves?
Yes, unlike yourself.

>>16249424

>haplotard
opinion discarded

also the chariot was invented by the andronovo and spread through them to mesopotamia and from there to greece etc. old europe was collapsing before the indo-europeans came in, and when they did so from the steppes they established client-patron relationships with the locals. this can be seen in archaeology because yamnaya-derived artefacts are found alongside old european ones for hundreds of years after the initial migration, and this has proved in britain that the anglo-saxon migration was not wholly violent and a one-sided racial genocide as well, which backs up welsh and anglo-saxon records anyways.

dumezil thought that the societies were three rigid heirarchical castes. which is not the case. we think now that it was instead young men (workers) middle aged men (fighters) old men (priests/elders). his "estate-like" version was due to his own biases. in any case later in his live he cryptically referred to his earlier beliefs as romanesque or "novelistic" so perhaps he even saw these contradictions that others (see bernard schlerath, he has too many points to make here) ruthlessly (and perhaps over-zealously) critiqued him on nearly thirty years ago.

>>16249434

lol

>>16249506
>chariot was invented by the andronovo and spread through them to mesopotamia
lmao at thinking one particular group invented the chariot. next you're going to claim
british records are complete nonsense and total cope. there is less gaelic admixture in the isles than there is hebrew in jews.

>we think now that it was instead young men (workers) middle aged men (fighters) old men (priests/elders).
extremely simplistic idea that already presupposes some sort of gradation. there was no way "ie" was egalitarian. compare to the "bone" structure in the east, the most radical example being the lolos. young men were workers? all young men? what kind of work? middle aged men were fighters? what kind of fighters? how old? all elders were priests? this sounds childish.

>his "estate-like" version was due to his own biases.
I don't agree on dumézil on a lot of things, he's too much of a philologist for my taste, but the formation of a primary estate is a fact everywhere at all times. there are not 3 estates, that is true, there is the true estate, the nobility, the counter estate, the priesthood, and the non estate, the peasantry.

>(see bernard schlerath, he has too many points to make here) ruthlessly (and perhaps over-zealously) critiqued him
so many points you can't bring up a few?

>>16249582
*to claim elamites invented the wheel

>>16249582
Sorry, there’s no evidence to claim that it was invented independently. Why would the western Indo-Europeans have developed it if they migrated into dense forests and mountains? Doesn’t make sense to me bro. Horses were used as skirmishing mounts in battle, no need for unwieldily chariots there. Indo-Iranian mercenaries brought it to Mesopotamia where they first attached nose-rings to their animals instead of bits because they didn’t have the acumen of the Indo-Iranians initially and it spread West from there. The Greeks were incredibly philsemetic so it’s only reasonable that it spread this way with 0 evidence to the contrary. If this is more haplotard shit I don’t care. For one “gaels” are only Irish and Scots and secondly north welsh and south welsh are about as separate from each other as the English according to more comprehensive genetic studies so this doesn’t prove anything :-) according to welsh and anglo-Saxon sources British and Saxon kings allied with each other freely against their own so it wasn’t a genocidal settlement for sure.

> young men were workers? all young men? what kind of work? middle aged men were fighters? what kind of fighters? how old? all elders were priests?

Probably not all, as prehistoric egalitarian (which we can see from archeological excavations of their settlements having identical buildings and refuse) people don’t have as sharp societal distinctions as we would.

As for Schlerath, I don’t remember the exact specifics at the moment and I haven’t got a copy on me. If you can read German, look for Bernfried Schlerath: Georges Dumézil und die Rekonstruktion der Indogermanischen Kultur. Kratylos 40, 41, 1996, 1-48, 1-67.

>>16249716
No evidence of chariots being brought by Indo-Iranians. Indo-Aryans on the other hand....

>>16249716
>Horses were used as skirmishing mounts in battle, no need for unwieldily chariots there.

There was no way to fire a bow from horseback until the invention of stirrups, so in the pre-historic world if you want mobile archers, you need chariots.

>>16249716
I never claimed western ie developed the chariot, since they came with it. It quickly fell into disuse thanks to geography. You are thinking too narrowly, in philologists terms, and denying the reality of geography. this is the steppe, thinking the chariot took some convoluted path down the oxus, up the euphrates and across the med is a stretch only capable of being made by morons and belated romantics still living in the "pots not people" mentality. Where do you think iranians got their pastoralist bones from? Who has been pushing aryaniggers further west for millennia?

>For one “gaels” are only Irish and Scots
Gaels, Gaul, I dont care what you call that trash "culture". It's all a bunch of fairy tales I trust the furry kid from North Carolina more than Ossian.

>Probably not all, as prehistoric egalitarian (which we can see from archeological excavations of their settlements having identical buildings and refuse) people don’t have as sharp societal distinctions as we would.
not a single "primitive people" have egalitarian societies. the people of the zomian highlands are some of the most isolated and most aristocratic in the world.

>>16249757
There were no horses in Ancient Egypt.

>>16249748
Yes the Mitanni seem to have been closer to Sanskrit than Avestan but I’m not sure if they could be definitely called “Indo-Aryan.”

>>16249757

I mean by throwing a spear with one hand, as historically the Numidians did as the speed of the horse compensated for the lesser body movement one could get by throwing spears on the ground. In any case didn’t the Scythians practice mounted archery without stirrups?

>For at least two thousand years the Yi have held their own against domination by the Chinese. Chinese annals since the beginning of the Christian era have described the Yi, under a variety of names, as being masters of the highlands where they still live to this day. In fact, over this time the Yi have actually expanded their range eastward into Guizhou.

>Around the beginning of the twentieth century parts of the surrounding countryside were briefly brought under a measure of military protection by Chinese garrisons. But control of the Cool Mountain itself was far from effective. After the fall of the imperial government, even this protection broke down. When the Republic was established in 1912, the Chinese military presence was reduced and the Yi increased their strength to fill the vacuum. Rebellions broke out. Communication lines between adjacent Chinese towns were cut off. As the Yi clans reassumed control of the entire area, they replenished and modernized their supply of arms. Opium-growing was banned in China since 1935, but since the government had no jurisdiction in the areas controlled by the Yi, opium poppies continued to be the most profitable crop there. Cultivated and processed by hired Chinese laborers and slaves, this drug was not used at all by the Yi themselves.
but muh egalitarian society

>>16249792
>Instead, they sold their produce at great profit on the Chinese black market, accepting only lump silver as payment, and then used this in turn to purchase rifles and ammunition. Around the turn of the century modern firearms were rare in Yi territory. By the Twenties every household had several. Throughout the Thirties and Forties the Yi moved at will over southern Sichuan, terrorizing the Han Chinese populace and even raiding the outskirts of large Chinese towns in order to rob and take slaves. Observers report that at the first sound of gunfire, terrified Chinese peasants would huddle in their houses, not daring to help their neighbors and hoping only that they would not be attacked next. In some places Yi raids were a nightly occurrence.

>Traditionally, these people were divided into three distinct groups: the Black Yi, the White Yi, and slaves (who have been set free now by the PRC government). The Black Bone (Nosu) aristocracy have been considered the true Yi (or Lolo), and it is they who have long excited curiosity among ethnographers. Many observers have described them as having “oval faces, aquiline noses, and horizontal eyes,” but also as having skin that is darker than that of the Chinese. The White Yi, with whom the Black Yi never intermarried, are generally the descendants of Han Chinese slaves who had earned a degree of freedom through faithful service. They are far more numerous than their former Black Yi masters, outnumbering them by perhaps ten to one. (This imbalance may partly explain why the official, posed portraits used to represent this minority do not show the “Caucasoid features” said to be typical of the true Yi, the Black Bone aristocracy.) The White Yi can best be described as serfs… Those in the slave class had no actual rights at all.

>>16249775
Sorry, you can live with wishful thinking all you want, but that’s what the archeological (i.e. only concrete data) we have says! If the chariot spread west it would have been found in burials more west than Andronovo not south and west only! If it spread west the word for chariot in Italic and Celtic would not be of a non-Indo-European origin. As for this Celt-slander, it’s sad really. Please don’t hold the crimes of long-dead Romanticists against the facts.

>>16249782
I don't see any problem in envisioning a small group of Indo-Aryans going Westwards (Mittani) and being the rulers there. See all of their names, it's Sanskrit basically. While the major chunk of Indo-Aryans coming to India. Isn't this the consensus already?

>>16249792
>>16249802
Different people, different circumstances. There’s no evidence of such stratification among the PIE.

>>16249813
I just thought the Mitanni kingdom was established a bit before or during the split between Iranic and Indo-Aryan. I think they’re definitely closer to what would become Sanskrit but I’m not sure if they can be called anything more than “Para-Indo-Aryan” perhaps since Sanskrit is younger than the Mitanni.

>>16249810
thanks to genius methods like yours, future historians will be puzzled that the prussians were defeated by the teutons in the 13th century, only to show up at the gates of Paris in 1871. or maybe we can finally determine what happened with the good ol romans, who just migrated down the danube. or maybe one day argentina will be recognised for the nordic land it is. this is 2015+5. if the historian is not bold or through enough to fill the gap of what we don't know, his spirit is even more dead than a stemcuck's (who actually can get quite creative in their speculations)

>>16249822
how can there be archaeological evidence of steppe pastoralists? they didn't even have a script or architecture. the lolo are in every way the cousins of the nordic steppe lords.

>>16249856
There is no history or even well-founded arguments in baseless speculation and wish fulfillment. The Yamnaya and Sintashta cultures left settlements behind because they were not strict nomads. How is this news? Herodotus remarked upon Scythian cities (which we have archaeological evidence of), the Khazars, Turks, and Mongols established settlements also.

>>16249869
behold the sprawling metropolis of the uyghur man, ugh, it's almost identical to thebes.

perhaps you would accept the lolo analogy if they spoke an aryan language? yet again, you are unable to think outside linguistic groups. equating name, race, and language was probably the fundamental disaster of 19th century scholarship. if we had sooner realised these 3 all have commonly individual histories, we wouldn't made such a mess of "prehistory". until you realise your faith in your premises is fundamentally mistaken, you will continue to chase your own tail every time a dig archaeological discovery is made. absolutely pathetic. palaeontologists and geologists surpassed this stage 50 years ago. at least some tenure remoras are a bit less stubborn and have accepted the usefulness and validity of archaeogenetics, which i assume you discard bc it's "reactionary" or bc it involves arithmetic.

>>16249916
Doesn’t matter about the size. A settlement is a settlement. As for archaeogenetics, I see no problem with it in theory, but an insistence on so small a piece of genetics as haplogroups is absurd. I haven’t mentioned names or races at all, just languages and archaeology - and anyways the Yamnaya horizon and Sintashta-Andronovo is probably the *only* archaeological culture I would consider to be identified with one specific linguistic group due to the overwhelming evidence. The Lolo are the way they were because of the massive influx of wealth from the opium trade. Why would dirt poor steppe pastoralists with very little agriculture be stratified? We can see from excavations in Old Europe that they, too, began to experience social hierarchy and stratification with the introduction of more advanced methods of agriculture allowing for a greater accumulation of wealth, but the steppe pastoralists lacked these.

>>16249984
No clue what's going on here

>>16249984
Your base materialism is getting in the way. "Wealth" doesn't create social stratification, deeds do. Post some ie archaelogical sites that show this alleged egalitarianism.

>The Lolo are the way they were because of the massive influx of wealth from the opium trade
You made this shit up. They have been raiding Southern China since the Han times. The black bone lineages are far older than the Opium trade.

>>16250168
Petrovka, Pavlovka, Ust’e, Arkaim, to name a few. Not even going to respond to the “deeds make social stratification” argument. Keep huffing that trad koolaid.

As for the Lolo it’s obviously the increased influx of wealth that led to even greater stratification, many ancient cultures raided and still remained egalitarian, do I need to bring up the Scythians again?

>>16250273
Post the pictures. This is an imageboard

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