/lit/ - Literature

Gay!

>Beethoven's belief in equality surfaced in 1812 when he was annoyed with his friend, the German poet Goethe, for using humble expressions when conversing with nobles. You shouldn't do that, Beethoven said to Goethe, "It's not right." While strolling that year in the town of Teplitz, Beethoven suggested to Goethe that they let approaching royalty get out of their way. Beethoven strode through the crowd of princes, touching his hat in greeting, while Goethe moved to the side of the road, removed his hat and bowed.
>Soldiers even invaded Goethe’s house, with Christiane displaying great bravery organizing the defense of the house and even tussling with the soldiers herself; luckily they spared the author ofWerther
>Goethewas married only once, although he fellinlove many times during his life. Interestingly enough, he fellinlove at anoldage as a widower, when he was already 72, with a17-year-oldgirl named Ulrike von Levetzow. He wanted to propose to her through an intermediary, but was rejectedinadvance.

>Beethoven's belief in equality surfaced in 1812 when he was annoyed with his friend, the German poet Goethe, for using humble expressions when conversing with nobles. You shouldn't do that, Beethoven said to Goethe, "It's not right." While strolling that year in the town of Teplitz, Beethoven suggested to Goethe that they let approaching royalty get out of their way. Beethoven strode through the crowd of princes, touching his hat in greeting, while Goethe moved to the side of the road, removed his hat and bowed.
>Soldiers even invaded Goethe’s house, with Christiane displaying great bravery organizing the defense of the house and even tussling with the soldiers herself; luckily they spared the author ofWerther
>Goethe was married only once, although he fell in love many times during his life. Interestingly enough, he fell in love at an old age as a widower, when he was already 72, with a 17-year-old girl named Ulrike von Levetzow. He wanted to propose to her through an intermediary, but was rejected in advance.

this

Goethe's work is honestly boring as fuck.

t. German

>>16086704
>Goethe's work is honestly boring as fuck.
>t. German

>>16086567
I just can't get into Romantic literature, the sentimental language they use is just too foreign to me.

>>16086733
>Goethe
>Romanticist
Confirmed is not familiar with Goethe.

Nobody but pseudo intellectuals read Goethe. He’s probably one of the most overrated intellectuals of all time. His works don’t contain a single profound insight, and are all corroded by averageness

>>16086749
Faust II is the pinnacle of literature

>>16086745
Nor do I care to be. I'll stick with the Greeks, thank you very much.

>>16086751
This, that anon obviously has just read Faust I and maybe some of his poetry.

>>16086751
Name one profound insight from it that wasn’t preceded by earlier, better writers. Do it in one sentence

>>16086567
He was certainly the most documented intellectual, even though his legacy would be made by Faust and not his earlier works.

>>16086754
Goethe is quite famous for occupying a space between classicism and romanticism though anon, back and forth.

>>16086745
He was a Romanticist though, pseud. No one cares about your pedantic distinctions without a difference and this is why no one but sad incels on /lit/ still read his pretentious writings.

>>16086765
>Goethe is quite famous for occupying a space
Truer words have never been spoken

>>16086745
Sturm und Drang is obviously proto-romantic. Stop being a faggot.

>>16086771
>He was a Romanticist though, pseud.
No you retard his works and beliefs literally went back and forth between romanticism and neoclassicism, and eventually ended up in a synthesis in Wiemar Classicism. You're just a brainlet dude.

>and this is why no one but sad incels on /lit/ still read his pretentious writings.
Any intelligent or educated person reads him, as well as many imbeciles in schooling systems. He's still one of the most read and valued authors ever, and always will be for as long as any other author is remembered, like Homer, like Shakespeare and so on.

>>16086567
Well if he died with good pecs, he just has to be great. Sweet logic, bro.

>>16086777
Thank you anon, and nice trips.

You just have to choose your biographers wisely. Eckermann was clearly a total sycophant, but he still shaped Goethe's image.

>>16086782
>Goethe was the most leading figure of Romanticism
Obviously, but you forget that throughout his life he rejected Romanticism in favour of Neoclassicism and was the leading figure of that in turn, the Sturm und Drang reaction against the Enlightenment was not the only thing he did in his life you retard. If you knew anything about him you'd know that he was equally a championer of the Romantic as he was Neoclassical.

>>16086801
>hat he was equally a championer of the Romantic
So he was a Romanticist in addition to being other things. Was that so hard for you to finally admit?

>>16086803
No, he was a Neoclassicist in addition to other things. Was that so hard for you to finally admit? Stop being such a disingenuous brat.

Goethe based large amounts of his entire work on the Greeks and his reading of the famous Tragedians, and he openly denounced Romanticism at times.

>>16086801
>the Sturm und Drang reaction against the Enlightenment was not the only thing he did in his life you retard
You seem to be reenacting the Sturm und Drang movement in your posts in this thread, faggot. Calm the fuck down.

>>16086825
Are you retarded? I call you a retard after you called me a faggot rudely for no reason and apparently I'm being too rude fro your feefees? Get a life dork.

>>16086687
Beethoven and Goethe weren't friends. They corresponded a bit, but the episode at Teplitz was the first and last time they met.

>>16086687
>Interestingly enough, he fell in love at an old age as a widower, when he was already 72, with a 17-year-old girl named Ulrike von Levetzow

There is nothing interesting about horny old dudes wanting suspiciously young girls

Goethe haters consist of the most retarded group of anglos, self hating Germans, and of course, our Jewish fellow-citizens. Seethe more in the presence of his all embracing sublime Genius.

Sure he's one of the greatest German writers, but greatest man that ever lived? He's not even the greatest German man.

>invented calculus
>invented the first mass-produced mechanical calculator
>refined thebinary numbersystem, which is the foundation of nearly all digital computers
>prince Eugene begged him to write a condensed version of his philosophy, which he kept like a jewel in a case
>Count Bonneval wrote to him "He (Prince Eugene), keeps your writing as the priests at Naples keep the blood of St. Januarius; he lets me kiss it then immediately shuts it up again in its casket" - Count Bonneval
>his student Electress Sophie of Hannover almost became the Queen of England, which would have made him the real power behind the throne

>>16087068

>>16086567
>5'6"

>>16086567
Goethe referred to Napoleon as a demigod. take what you will from that.

>>16087191
and he was right

>>16086856
But it wasn't something so erotic, it was real love. Read the Marienbad Elegy he wrote about it.

>>16086870
In the true sense of the word, based!

>>16087068
Sure he's one of the greatest, but I think most would agree Goethe is greater.

>>16087145
Disgusting.

>>16086687
>Beethoven's belief in equality surfaced in 1812 when he was annoyed with his friend, the German poet Goethe, for using humble expressions when conversing with nobles. You shouldn't do that, Beethoven said to Goethe, "It's not right."
It is painful to read some of Goethe where he places any royalty on a fucking pedestal and every poor citizen admires the nobles.
Reading "Wilhelm Meisters Lehrjahre" was truly insufferable.
With Nobles he almost writes Fairy Tales. Have to seperate those aspects from the sublime parts of his writings.

>>16087287
Wilhelm Meister stopped putting the nobility on the pedestal though at the end.

>>16087287
If my memory serves me right, Goethe supposedly said that the common man is to an Illuminato what the ape is to the common man. If anything Goethe's idea of hierarchies in society was about intelligence and not necessarily about birth.

>>16087287
>peasant can't appreciate traditional nobility
Get a life buyo.

>>16087328
>traditional nobility
I simply dislike the admiration for any nobility not jsut for the nobility that is truly this """""""ideal traditional nobility"""""""".
He weaves this supperiority of the noble man over anyone lower at the most insignificant spots.
Like in the Beethoven example, Goethe would have wanted every peasant to behave torwards nobility the way he did.
Goethe's writing is best when he isn't distracted by hebephil "every girl i meet loves me" pussy chasing or nobility ass kissing.
>>16087313
I appreciate that explanation but I don't think it covers his writings 100%.

>>16087265
Most don't even know who Leibniz is. I say he is greater because his contributions to the world were far more important.

>>16087367
Literally anyone who does even pre-calc knows who Leibniz is.

>>16086709
Lots of Britoids whine about having to read Shakespeare too to be fair.
Never seen a Russian disrespect Dostoevsky, though.

>>16087367
Well, no doubt it is easier to see the contributions the study of quantity has quantitatively brought, and similarly with philosophy for those more inclined to it, but the latter men may have trouble as for the artist and his history, like Goethe. How is Faust II, not a religious revelation in itself? If not in contrast to Leibniz's philosophy of God than above it? For what great artist is not a revelation as any great thinker?

>>16087353
>Goethe's writing is best when he isn't distracted by hebephil "every girl i meet loves me" pussy chasing or nobility ass kissing.
It sounds like you have a serious inferiority complex anon, if anything one should appreciatively laugh at the comical idiosyncrasy of this great figure and his thought, in his work. Besides, Goethe looks to the nobility to represent what was recognised by Plato most efficiently, a natural hierarchical difference in nature, to represent his Ideal of it. In part he believes the way it was in real life at that time was like this, that obviously aristocrats would have been more intelligent(I can tell you that Goethe would have had much engagement with Peasants), as well as recognising that in real life at that time anyhow it was not entirely like that but that these social conditions existed and he acted that way as they are, and how he would want to be.

You can be against a strict Aristocracy in society, but it's not necessarily a bad thing, and has rather been proved to be a naturally good thing. Though the idea is that there may be a better.

>>16087383
>Never seen a Russian disrespect Dostoevsky, though.
They're still young and don't take him for granted as a literary classic however, though perhaps they do Tolstoy.

As for Shakespeare that's just a youthful(and in truth somewhat uneducated which might coincide with it) mind to complain about reading Shakespeare.

>>16087424
>In part he believes the way it was in real life at that time was like this, that obviously aristocrats would have been more intelligent(I can tell you that Goethe would have had much engagement with Peasants), as well as recognising that in real life at that time anyhow it was not entirely like that but that these social conditions existed and he acted that way as they are, and how he would want to be.
what a horrible sentence. sure you ever read Goethe?
> and has rather been proved to be a naturally good thing.
projecting your dreams on reality

yeah, dude, I don't think you get that I am not categorically against the mentioning of aristocrats. I dislike his portrayal of aristocrats especially how the peasants are portrayed to always revere them and their natural superiority.
I am simply saying he shows personal writing flaws in the two aspects mentioned, due to irl personal traits, noticeably when compared to other german writers of the time.

Thread theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nt7L3_eVVs

It fits Goethe's aristocratic intentions.

>>16087456
I miss him so much bros.

>>16087455
>what a horrible sentence. sure you ever read Goethe?
Are you retarded or do you just believe in total equality?

>projecting your dreams on reality
Yes, having a genetically superior class rule over a people and maintain their purity focused on many set ideals of culture has been a good thing. If you ignore this you're just a dumb peasant; You can say there are much better ways, but what it was trying to do, recognising something very basic in nature, it at least in part succeeded. Do you prefer neoliberal democracy?

>I dislike his portrayal of aristocrats especially how the peasants are portrayed to always revere them and their natural superiority.
It's not that bad of a thing, you can socialistically be against it, but what it bears in it as a structure, is not an evil thing.

>personal flaws
Lmao listen to him talk, people wish to rate the character of great men without introducing that which makes them great into it. Neoliberal smallness. Only a dumb mind would purposefully choose bitter disliking over comical appreciation of idiosyncrasy, or do you mean to say the genius Goethe was just pro aristocrat for no reason that his intellect could see, and only selfish reasons? You could see that sparked an appreciation for aristocracy, but as for a lasting championing of it, no, that would not work for a genius such as he. You have a smallminded liberalness that seems to think there be one good perfect society, which we can plant in the ground today and know how it will grow tomorrow(or grow in less than a day), and there is no such thing as a subjectively opposing societal structure which for all your love of its very opposite, when can never deny its value. I'm against aristocracy as well, but you shouldn't be so bitter about it, and the fact that you are about this ideal of Goethe's, seems to me to show that you practically are categorically against any mention of aristocracy, for you expect it in a modern revionistic mindset of democracy and equality and I gather all peasants to either dislike them or be mutual to them, or show no affection or praise to them which in history, it has been obvious they have.

>>16087558
Meant to say
>You could *SAY* that sparked an appreciation for aristocracy

>>16086687
Goethe was a snivelling runt when it came to the nobility

>>16087191
Goethe had a Julien Sorel phase, so be it

>>16087602
>Julien Sorel
Explain what this means to an uncultured and reader of little(just the major classics as of yet).

>>16087558
Not gonna waste my time anymore.
You dense retard, I won't argue over the same point over and over again, if you misconstrue what I say and project a million of your own issues.

>>16087667
Is everything some psychological projection to you? Or is it that you lack the thought to be able to create an insult any better than that?

You're a fucking moron that is unable to bare the sight of aristocracy being a good thing and when obviously shown up on the subject you get scared of a paragraph. Maybe you shouldn't be so touchy and start being arrogant with people just when you casually disagree.

>>16087667
>I simply dislike the admiration for nobility, not just the idealised nobility
i.e.
>I simply dislike the admiration for all nobility
You're small minded liberalness can't imagine a state of nobles.

>>16087778
>>16087786
seething so hard off of a simple criticism of an obvious flaw in Goethe (especially from todays point of view).
The French revolution was a progress in understanding for the human psyche just as the aesthetic regime (contemporary) of art is a progress form the mimetic or ethical regime of the past (meaning your noble aristocracy caring for its plebain scum is wrong even for his very own time: Kant, Fichte, Schiller, etc.)
Sorry you are in a state of not knowing that can't even be attributed to some previous state since you wouldn't be congruent with it since you are of the contemporary state.

I am not saying Goethe is bad (since I am not a retard like you), but as his contemporaries already stated, his sacrosanct aristocracy notion is flawed.And when Goethe writes for example in "Dichtung und Wahrheit" how wherever he goes all the 15 year old girls love him and the 17 year old one is envious of her sister for Goethe loving her instead of her, the older sister, it is fucking cringe (+70 yo Goethe trying to marry a 17 yo girl is prime example of this derangement in its extreme).

>inb4 neither of you are even german

>>16087898
Again, you're under the misguided liberal mindset that essentially today is the only thing with any truth of itself, and this is shown in your inability to reply to me. I said myself that I am not for an aristocracy, and those who were within it critique it the most, but I do not think any Fichte would prefer 20th century neoliberalism to 19th century aristocracy. I have explained the point of aristocracy, I have explained why it was formed and why it lasted. And, furthermore, why Goethe believed in it.

Obviously yes
>The French revolution was a progress in understanding for the human psyche
But Goethe did not believe in it for no reason, and it is not without value. Certainly we shall always see a value in it, in past systems. Especially one which was set about to ensure a higher number of, as Goethe would consider it himself, superior people. These things are obvious, and you only wish to be a part of some fabled critique of "le dying social structures" like men were in the day.

>I am not saying Goethe is bad (since I am not a retard like you),
When did I ever infer or state that you did? Stop putting words in my mouth.

>proceeds to cry about how Goethe liking aristocracy was a flaw and him boasting about how women were attracted to him is a flaw and this all makes him very silly in these moments
And it is these critiques, which shows that you treat Goethe as if he were the old man down the street being too confident, just a small man. Where Goethe is not a small man, and he did not believe in aristocracy for no reason(where you seem to think every man shall form exactly the same opinions in life) and neither did he just blindly and as if shamefully the way you put it, speak of his young girls attraction for him. It is very highly possible that they loved to be around him(and maybe not sexual attraction), the famous Goethe, and he payed more attention to one sister than another.

And again, you wish to look at these "flaws" independent from the man, abstractly and like the real faults of a modern behaviourism. I have said that I am against aristocracy, but you're bitterness about the whole thing, while still pretending that you "are not categorically against any mention of aristocracy" which I swiftly showed to be true that you were indeed against such a thing, is frankly disgusting and no other sign than your own littleness in comparison to Goethe. Now we have debated everything through this that we will achieve for the day, now please, shew!

>>16086567
Yes, Goethe died and another man was moved, that makes Goethe a great man.

>>16088077
>but I do not think any Fichte would prefer 20th century neoliberalism to 19th century aristocracy.
kek fucking retard

>which I swiftly showed to be true
absolute yikes

You are the fedora tipping knight equivalent for the Goethe image you like to purport being true.
Absolutely cringe faggot loser, never say you like Goethe because you are dragging his name down.

>>16086709
>you can't dislike someone of your own nationality
What kind of dumb fuckery is this?

>>16086733
Sentimentality is such a fucking turn-off. Even worse is blatant, tasteless irony.

>>16088133
He was moved because he was great.

>>16088152
>You are the fedora tipping knight equivalent for the Goethe image you like to purport being true.
Well, you know, Goethe purported to to be true himself. I'm pretty sure Goethe was right.

>>16088166
Peepeepoopoo.

>>16087219
Based

>>16087898
>The French revolution was a progress in understanding for the human psyche j
lol

>>16087287
t. peasantfag