/lit/ - Literature

>>16013330
Read Jung.

>>16013401

Be more specific, what works of Jung?

>>16013405
Start with Man and His Symbols to get an overview. From there read his more detailed works which are mentioned in it.

>>16013412

Ok sure, but what is your goal with me reading these works exactly?

>>16013330
yes. meditation is bullshit. true meditation is what carlos castaneda called something like re introspection, not sure, I did not read it in english. you can smoke weed and watch a movie, see it from another perspective, but you can also take a look at your life, at your past as a movie, recalling certain events which left negative feelings until you overcome them, accept them, dissolve them, laugh at them. getting rid of traumas.

Read The Holy Bible. Prayer is the only meditation you need.

>>16013525
need for what? to be pure, like children? did you see children praying? it is disorder. so shut the fuck up christcuck.

>>16013525
What is prayer?

>>16013525

Pointless, if religious experience is a universal capacity found in all human beings, and expressed across cultures. Then there is no point for me to do it through the Bible, I might as well make my own personal religion, and pray through my own symbols and mythology, which is more personal to me, and thus way more relatable.

>>16013545
prayer is salvation from idiots who would bother you and nag you, but instead nag imaginary jesus.

>>16013543
Everyone sees that children have the greatest faith, though they know nothing of faith. Why is it so?

>>16013330
Buddhist meditation is known to have benefits

>Phenomenological studies suggest the existence of enhanced cognitive states, termed flow or peak experiences, in which specific cognitive processes (e.g., attention, perception) can be dramatically increased for limited durations. Here we review new scientific evidence that shows that specific types of meditation that developed out of certain religious traditions such as Vajrayana (Tantric Buddhism) and Hindu Tantra lead to the enhanced cognitive states, characterized by heightened sympathetic activation and phasic alertness (a significant temporary boost in focused attention). This is in contrast to the meditation practices (Shamatha, Vipassana) from other traditions such as Theravada and Mahayana that elicit heightened parasympathetic activity and tonic alertness. Such findings validate Buddhist scriptural descriptions of heightened arousal during Vajrayana practices and a calm and alert state of mind during Theravada and Mahayana types of meditation. The finding demonstrates the existence of enhanced cognitive states-the unique and energized states of consciousness characterized by a dramatic boost in focused attention.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30771143/
Enhancing Human Cognition Through Vajrayana Practices

>>16013599

I do not disagree that it has benefits, I know it does. I have experienced these mental states before, but they did not seem particularly better at pushing one to improvement, becoming calm makes you lazy, comforted in where you are, so there is no point to move forwards towards any goal.

Basically, I am argue that if your goal is to achieve something, meditation is not worth, and in fact experiencing some sort of psychosis, or extreme mental distress might be better, if you use that pain as a way to force you to focus solely on something.

>>16013330
>progress
>success
>achieving
>benefits
>improvement
you dont get meditation. you're addicted to thinkng within the language of time. im not saying its wrong or unhealthy to be like you, there is no "should" in reality. if you want to go after your goals, do so. meditation wont help you or hurt that in too significant a way. if you want to meditate, do so to experience a unique state of mind, not for its pragmatic utilities.

>>16014407
real shit

>>16014407
you can also eat shit, scat, also a unique state of mind. so cool to be unique!

>>16014407
>there is no "should" in reality

You have to be mentally deficient to believe this, everything from the smallest level of complexity follows a should. That's why things evolve into complex entities, what we feel as should or motivation is a more complex protocol that was already there, and is in things as small as motors that drive protein synthesis in your cells.

>>16013553
Go for it man, that's what all your ancestors did right? Make up a bunch of shit that relates to them more? No? They worshiped religious symbols? Well then I'd suggest you pay respects to those symbols while expressing your own symbols through art and teach those to your children when you feel they're ready to learn.

>>16015559
no thanks that sounds gross, i'd rather meditate.

>>16013330
>>16013657
I don't know much about Buddhism, but I'm fairly certain that your way of thinking is completely incompatible with its core values. Your mention of "progress" was the first red flag. From your post it seems like you view things like "progress","success", and "productivity" as if they are as if they are inherently good (standard western mindset). That attitude is what you have to rethink, I believe. Buddhism, or any religion/belief system, is not there to help you achieve "stuff you want"-- by this I assume physical things like possessions, accomplishments, etc. That kind of "progress" is ultimately meaningless anyway. This is a point so obvious almost all worthwhile religions/philosophies have reached it independently, from Stoicism to Buddhism to my own religion of Islam. What you should be looking for is spiritual enlightenment, not self help. Start by rethinking those core assumptions and I think you will be better suited to engage with Buddhist ideas.


>>16013543
>>16013553
>>16013565
cringe

>>16013330
The problem is that no matter what you achieve, it will always be taken away from you. You will age, get sick, and die. Making progress and achieving things is like being stuck in a lake drowning, and treading water just enough that you can keep your mouth above the surface. Sooner or later, you will sink and drown. The other option is to uproot the problem of suffering completely by swimming to the shore, which is the purpose of Buddhist practice.

The Buddha characterized the fundamental problem of existence as 'dukkha' - the unease, worry and concern that is ever present, due to our recognition of our liability to suffer. We are liable to suffer because the things we have craving/passion/lust towards are determined by things that are inaccessible to us, and therefore outside of our control and liable to change. The solution is to abandon craving with respect to those phenomena which are liable to change, which is all of them.

>>16013599
I'm more interested in analytical proof of it instead of empirical

>>16013330
Different sects interpret these things differently. Some of them lock themselves into purity spirals, some have a more nuanced understanding of these ideas as being more a way of appreciating and enabling different states of minds, without the need necessarily to discard pre-existing ones, but instead balance them out.

Direct translations into other languages often cause these differences in understanding. Buddhism, Hinduism and many other eastern schools of thought hold their roots in vedic philosophy, who's works are mostly written in numerous dialects of sanskrit. Many sanskrit words used in the context of philosophy are often broad and complex in scope, and differ heavily in scope from their nearest equals in many modern languages.

>>16016193
I guess the other thing that causes these differences in understanding between different groups, is people who read things carefully, and scan reading plebs.

>>16016154

If humans had that attitude we simply wouldn't have developed the tech to be communicating these ideas. Meditation is the equivalent of rejecting life, and coping yourself into being happy into your stagnant life.

Truth is, most discoveries, and amazing works of literature/science have been achieved by obsessed individuals that were suffering a lot, that is what is behind our progress. We'll never get to a point where we can perhaps defeat aging, where then meditation would make a lot more sense.

You know that meme where you've been thinking about some problem, but a flash of insight finally hits you when you're not thinking and doing something mundane?

That's what meditation does for your entire life. You stop operating in the world of symbols and start co-opting the power of your subconscious.

>>16016216

Edison had most of his insights while in a half sleeping state while taking frequent power naps.

The subconscious is way more powerful than the conscious.

>>16016221

Yeah I know what you mean, I used to be obsessed with lucid dreaming cause it was a great place to explore that, lately I've also learned that by lowering my testosterone, I become a lot more intuitive for some reason

>>16016161
Anything regarded as controllable will automatically be regarded as (potentially) pleasant. Anything regarded as pleasant, will automatically be regarded as owned, or potentially ownable. To regard something as owned is to make yourself liable to suffering on account of losing that thing. In the Buddha's terms, the totality of those phenomena regarded as owned or potentially ownable constitute your 'being' or bhava.

For example, the average person will regard their own body as within their control. They will therefore regard the body, in its nature, as pleasant, because they can control it. Seeing it as pleasant, they will regard it as 'their body.'

But notice that all phenomena - thoughts, sense perceptions, etc. - are manifested. That is to say, they are discovered 'sitting' there on their own. You might be able to influence them to some degree, but only because they were given in the first place. The extent that phenomena are manifest, is the extent to which they are independent of you. The extent of their independence is the extent of their uncontrollability. And any control you do have is 'on top of' your fundamental lack of control of phenomena.

Seeing this, one ceases to regard phenomena as pleasant. Even if something is pleasant in its content, the fact that it is independent of you, and could therefore change to be unpleasant at any time, means that all such phenomena are unpleasant in their natures. Regarding phenomena as unpleasant in their natures, one will be incapable of regarding them as owned or ownable - one will not appropriate them. When this abandoning of ownership applies to all phenomena, one's 'being' has ceased - there is no one left, meaning no one left to suffer.

Again think of the body. The body is a collection of matter which you did not author. You can control it to some degree, but you can't tell it to never age, never get sick, and never die. And everything you will ever experience is determined by the body. Frequently reflecting on this, you will cease to regard the body, and anything dependent on it, as pleasant in its nature. Ceasing to regard it as pleasant, you will cease to regard it as owned. You will then be completely unaffected emotionally by anything that happens to it or because of it.

"Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is no more existence in this world."

>>16016216
>Truth is, most discoveries, and amazing works of literature/science have been achieved by obsessed individuals that were suffering a lot, that is what is behind our progress. We'll never get to a point where we can perhaps defeat aging, where then meditation would make a lot more sense.

Why do you want any of that? If you're honest with yourself, the reason you want anything is always to escape suffering. And you can do that the right way, taught by the Buddha, or you can do it the wrong way (every other way).

>>16016259

>Why'd you want to give the human race more power, the which which one day might allow it to surpass its own biological limits, and become something way more powerful and able to cope with the suffering in a whole different way


Come on dude, imagine if we find a way to increase your working memory. Imagine what mental states we could achieve with that mental power, meditation would become a lot more deep and meaningful.

>>16016284
Meditation is nothing other than understanding phenomena in their nature. And all phenomena have the same nature: they are uncontrollable, undesirable, and unownable. To understand this is to abandon passion for phenomena.

"Oh yea but think of these really cool phenomena!" just doesn't work.

>>16016294

>He thinks he can abandon phenomena
Why are you like this?

>>16016299

Abandon PASSION for phenomena. It's literally the entirety of the Buddha's teaching: with craving, there is suffering; without craving, there is no suffering.

>>16016313

It's a really silly idea, because it is suffering that gives meaning to your life. I'd know, as someone that has suffered with depersonalization after spending my entire teenage years balls deep in meditation

>>16016323
And why do you want meaning? Because you suffer without it. And why do we suffer? Because we crave toward pleasant feeling, and away from unpleasant feeling. And how do you abandon suffering? By abandoning craving. And how you you abandon craving? By abandoning ignorance regarding the fact that phenomena are uncontrollable, undesirable, and unownable.

>>16016337
>And why do you want meaning?

Asking why I want meaning is like asking why I want oxygen, it is an inherent truth that human beings seek meaning and purpose in their life, and without it we feel lost, and most often than not, depressed, which is what leads you to have cravings, and addictions in the first place.

Meditation is not a replacement for meaning in life, dude

>>16016358
Meaning is only important because you crave it. If you abandon craving, you abandon the need for meaning.

>>16016368
>Meaning is a craving

Enjoy reaching 80, and feeling like you've done absolutely nothing with your life

>>16016386
>and feeling like you've done absolutely nothing with your life

That would only matter if you have craving. You're just not getting it. Nothing can make you suffer if you have no craving in regards to it. Why do you not care that you haven't become a world class basketball player? Because you have no craving in regards to it. If you have no craving with respect to ANYTHING, then NOTHING can make you suffer. And to achieve THAT, is the greatest possible accomplishment.

>>16013417
Don't listen to him anon. Anything that can't be explained in a 4chan post isn't worth considering.
>>16013330
Progress is anti-progress.

>>16016402

Sounds retarded.
''I don't want to suffer so I am just going to pretend I don't''

>>16016438
>''I don't want to suffer so I am just going to pretend I don't''

It's: I don't want to suffer, so I'm going to uproot the conditions for suffering so I can't anymore.

>>16016448

If you really believed that you'd be here arguing with someone that disagrees with you, why do you care proving yourself right so much?

Come on dude, at least have integrity in the non-sense you peddle.

>>16013330
>wanting stuff
yeah, this meditation stuff is probably not for you
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B8NMDmoujfo

>>16016474

You sure wanted to post that, and share a video. Guess you are living proof meditation doesn't work, and its just a edgy cope

>>16016457

You're calling it nonsense without being able to say what's wrong with it.

If you're interested in understanding, watch something from here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKejmWAt_kNpRMq5gQEGAqw

>>16016490

I literally stated that in the OP. I said meditation is a cope, and pointless, cause avoiding suffering is against developing meaning. That's why monks ain't developing space engines, they'll die up there in the mountain having achieved absolutely nothing except jerk off in their Zen states, till they become bones, and everyone forgets about them

>>16016525
And then you've completely ignored any reasoning and evidence to the contrary. You've already made up you're mind and you just want to argue.

>>16016541

The only evidence to the contrary I got was
''Hurr durr you can't suffering if you stop giving a shit about wanting stuff''
Which is retarded, cause if it was true, you wouldn't even be arguing with me, you'd just not care.

At least I am honest about wanting to argue. Cunt.

>>16013330
don't listen to these faggots bro. they say meditation is to sit, breath and "release your mind". I say meditation is release all yourself. and breath, yeah. best breathing is laughter.

>>16016671
>best breathing is laughter.

Ain't that right, bro

>>16016721
it is. spirit, spirituality, inspiration, it is all from spirare, breathing. not just any breathing, but powerful. laughter to tears and pain in abdomen is a sign that meditation was success.

>>16013330
I've been practicing meditation for over 10 years. In some ways it has made me more productive. My procrastination is basically non-existent, since I become aware of resistance as soon as it arises, and it can be easily dispelled. In some ways it has shattered my productivity. I quit a high stress job to work part time pushing papers.

I didn't "stagnate", my priorities changed. I still have a drive to do things, but many of the goals I desired before just feel meaningless nowadays.

meditation doesnt give you insight into reality when youre not in that state. you dont get wiser by the end. its only a feeling you get when you are meditating.

>>16015785
protein synthesis and complexity in that sense dont follow a should. they arise in nature because what isnt self-replicating dies out (almost by definition). so we have the illusion that they are following a path towards complexity. in reality, things just are, and the surviving survive. in reality, everything only is. there is no should. there is only the absolute soup spoon that is your mind
>>16014494
its not to be unique. its to experience something unique. some people eat shit too to experience that. being a namefag is kind of like eating shit in that regard, as is most other things

>>16018108
what about being namechad?

>>16013330
Zen is probably the most compatible school of thought with your line of thinking. A fundamental realization of the Mahayana school is that trying to avoid desire is a desire in itself. So, what do you do then? The simple answer is that there's no such thing as a human being with no desires, no matter how much detachment you practice. There is no existence without suffering. It is an inevitable part of life. But if there is no suffering, then there is no joy either. You cannot have one without the other, thus joy and suffering are the same thing. Since there is no way to escape it, the only thing to do is to accept it for what it is. You carry on as you always do, but you see the buddha nature in your actions. A zen master is not easily seen, because how can you spot the difference between someone doing ordinary things for ordinary reasons, and someone doing ordinary things for pious reasons?

What Zen concerns itself isn't to avoid suffering, but to avoid having a sticky mind. Mindfulness puts you in the present to avoid dwelling on negative or painful memories. Neither is Zen incompatible with seeking mastery with something. Zen mastery is to be in accord with your unconscious mind, to be able to do an action with complete naturalness, with no premeditation or conscious thought. It was a famous practice among samurai in particular, who sought sword zen and archery zen.

I would also like to point out that suffering doesn't automatically equal progress or results. Many people suffer for reasons completely beyond their control, no matter how hard they try to change it. This does not mean you shouldn't try, but that you should accept the results of what happens. We live in an era where it's very easy to have desires, but to never fulfill them.

Probably around 99% of your thoughts are derivative, repetitive and pointless.
During meditation, you reclaim control of your thought patterns and dispel them momentarily. Thus, when you resume thinking, your thoughts will be fresh, creative and highly focussed.

Meditation is a habit of many highly productive people.

>>16018465
these 99% of thoughts, internal monologue, are making up justification for own actions before close ones who "love" us like boss loves subordinates, or like stupid kid loves toys. that is the point of religious teaching, yoga, to silence this endless internal delirium, to forgive, forget, get rid of those narcissists who don't respect us and treat as property, as personal free shrinks, until only "I" remains. there's a rule not to distract driver while he drives a vehicle. our parents, wives distract us constantly. such driver who is constantly bothered will eventually stop car and get out of it. suicide.