/lit/ - Literature

>>15961785
Beliefs are for godless heathens.
We have convictions.
Stay relative retard

>>15961785

Philosophical theology has never produced such a "good" argument, so your claimed knowledge is false.

The works of Gods children are anything but argumentative. We don’t waste time trying to convince the deaf dumb and blind

>>15961795
What's the difference? Also please, be kind, I'm not fishing for gotcha moments. I'm really interested in this question
>>15961801
I haven't claimed that they are conclusive, but they're still good enough to warrant some consideration. Some of them are quite hard to refute for someone thinking about them for the first time.
>>15961807
Can you expand on that?

For me religion is fundamental for politics. And politics exist because not only it exists difference but opposition. And said (o)p(position) can not be changed it can only be fulfilled.

>THIS IS MY FAVORITE MOVIE GUYS

I don't think I've ever actually believed anybody when they told me they are religious. I dont believe anybody truly believes.

ive been alive for long enough to realize rationality doesn't really mean anything

Christianity is the most popular religion + its theologians seems to be pretty wise.

>>15961785
Because I read the Gospels and I concluded that no human could invent such precise and efficient morals out of nothing. And reading the Old Testament, it's almost impossible that someone invented the life of Jesus when it has that quantity of references to prophecies and events. If someone or a group of people invented it, they had to know the entire Bible by heart and even then they couldn't write with such power of conviction and charisma. Also there are historical proofs of His resurrection (see the shroud of Turin).

>>15961861
Religious =/believer

>>15961872
>I concluded that no human could invent such precise and efficient morals out of nothing.
How? This doesn't seem to be a logical necessity.
Also to what extent do you trust your judgement when it comes to this conclusion of yours?

>>15961785
I refuse that a bunch of archaic people just accidentally created the worldview that most perfectly explains the world; which is, of course, Christianity

>>15961927
>logical necessity
youre beyond help.
You are like in 2nd grade asking sophomores what they think of graduate students

>>15961939
Fuck me, *I refuse to believe that

>>15961872
also
>Pharisees show up with double secret revelation--the "Oral Torah"
>Temple destroyed
The OT religion ENDED and Judaism STARTED at the time of Christ. This makes me really uneasy and I'm an atheist.

>>15961943
Sure, I accept that, that's why I'm asking questions. I'm not a militant atheist, I'm genuinely thinking about religion for the first time in my life: many things about it confuse me, and at the moment I don't have anyone else to ask these questions to.

>>15961785
A lot of modern religions are just the resentiment of the small againt the great and I dont just mean on a moral basis.

The reason the Bible is a small and closed book, for example, is so that it stays small and manageble.

Its a direct attack on the idea of a philosopher and his library.

>>15961967
Ask yourself and no one else.
More information won't make you ask the right questions or take the right choice

>>15961967
That’s too bad
Let me tell you what you are doing.
You are coming here with your plastic containers asking how to fit a meal meant to feed the homeless population of Portland. Are you stupid or do you think we are?

>>15961943
>youre beyond help

No explanation, I guess you have been telling lies then.

>>15961927
>Also to what extent do you trust your judgement when it comes to this conclusion of yours?
You asked for our rational reasons and I gave you mines. I obviously think I'm a very analytic and mentally sane person.

>>15961785
Life is not rational, so there is no need to rationally justify. Religion is a logical ideology though so you should have no issue finding plenty of logical justifications for why people believe in X religion

1. Justify rationality
2. Define the answer

>>15961785
I don't, I believe. Not so much now. I have the intellectual understanding of God, but barely any faith. I died this summer and I can't seem to come back.

>>15961992
I must be stupid, since I'm not getting your point.
>>15962011
That's why I'm asking, I'm not sure these are rational arguments. For example I have heard muslims making the same type of argument in relation to the style of the Quran (and about how it is impossible to replicate, and all that jazz). Since other religions make similar claims to yours, I don't think I can accept it at face value. If you can, please substantiate it

>>15962039
1. A logically valid argument based on sound premises (here I am willing to concede that "a perfect, personal God exists" is a sound premise).
2. What answer?

>>15962026
>Life is not rational
Life is regulated by abstract laws. Making it perfectly rational.

>>15962057
It’s not a must but youre really not helping yourself here

>>15962061
I said to justify, not to define. People who justify rationality with rationality also need to get their head out of their ass. Try again, I’m waiting

>>15961785
It begins with the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth: The King of the Jews. Once you realize that the resurrection is true, the rest just falls into place.

>>15962118
I don't know how to do it. How do you move from here?

>>15962149
Holy FUCK your stupid. Gotta have someone help you through every step of think? What the fuck did your parents teach you? Did you not have older siblings who are educated? Watch this

1. Justify rationality
Rationality is Good, because ration/alization is what justification itself implies, balanced and therefore fair.
2. Define the answer
Good is that which is above and beyond rationality as it is the end that rationality seeks to clarify. The Good has many names, and the study of the Good is directly related to the study of grounds of anything whatsoever, Genesis, and therefore The Creator, also known as ME BITCH

>>15962057
Ok, I'll be more specific so you can understand. For example, there is a passage in the book of Exodus where Moses pierces a rock so water flows from there. There is a similarity with the spear of Longinus, who in the Gospels breaks trough the body of Jesus and from Him flows blood and water. Jesus is called the "capital stone", and a Jewish legend which is commented by Saint Paul, there was a rock following the Jews trough the Sinai desert from which they got water.

Another case is the death of Jesus. Jesus is said to be the lamb of God as the Jews used to sacrifice lambs in expiation of sins. Well, when Jesus died, his knees weren't broken as they used to do with the criminals, but casually the lambs which the Jews used couldn't have their knees broken, and this is written in the book of Exodus.

Jesus coming was prophetized in Isaiah 53:1-12. And other minor prophet said that the Messiah would be born in Benthelem. Well, in fact he's prophetized again and again. There are centuries of differences between the prophecies and the events.

The level of symbolism is outstanding, I could give a thousand of examples more. There is no chance that this is invented. You would need to know the scriptures by heart 100% and still have room for a bright imagination. You can say that there would be random. I admit that 2 perfect coherences could be product of randomness, but a total perfect coherent symbolic system, impossible. And the moral part, come on, Jesus was ahead of time, he reached what Socrates didn't, he gave a moral ground that has needed centuries of debate to be fully understood.

>>15961872
This anon is largely correct when you think about it logically. The NT is inherently perfect in relation to all the OT prophecies about the Messiah, and there are very, very many of them. Only a group of very devout Jews who knew the entire OT essentially by heart would be able to “invent” the story of Jesus in the NT if it were indeed fabricated. But then you have to ask yourself, why would very devout Jews do something so sinister and dishonest as to fabricate a story based on their own beliefs? Especially when they knew most Jews wouldn’t accept it. It really makes no sense for that to have happened, so the only logical answer is that the NT gospels are all true.

>>15962259
>The NT is inherently perfect in relation to all the OT prophecies about the Messiah

stop lying

>>15961795
you don't have knowledge. convictions are opinions, and change.

>>15961785
I don't believe in God. I know him.

>>15962249
Much of Christian theology borrows from Aristotle. I'm thinking specifically of Thomas Aquinas here, but I know there's others who built upon the Greeks when they sought to pursue a rational justification for their faith.
I don't think it helps your point to insult the ancients by claiming they could not have created something as complex as Christian morality.

>>15962270
These are just a fraction. There are literally hundreds.

https://www.newtestamentchristians.com/bible-study-resources/351-old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/

>>15962276
>>15962283
Look at this absolute retard kek

>>15962126
and you become stupid faggot beyond salvation. reviving corpses, walk on h2o, turn it into c2h5oh, pathetic degenerate.

>>15962301
repent

>>15962299
Look at this absolute retard kek

>>15962308
repent

>>15962288
you're claiming as independent corroboration what you've not even tried to interpret independently of what you already believe. it's an insidious tendency of mind and heart for the pure of heart to propagate.

>>15962315
You know that anxiety? That’s me :)

>>15962378
You know that anxiety? That’s me :)

>>15961801
Too puffed up with pride to submit to authority, too much of a brainlet/soullet to follow the hard road of reason. Modern man, everyone.

>>15961939
No Christian thinks it was accidental either.

>>15962284
I didn't insult anybody, I said Jesus surpassed them while reaffirming a big part of their moral innovations. That's praising them more than insulting. It's sad from the whole text I wrote you only got that misinterpretating what I wrote.

Rationality is a lie. Most of people don't convert although everything is perfectly logical since they don't want to deal with compromises and moral rules. And that's something that doesn't concern reason but each own's ego.

>>15962390
You know that anxiety? That’s you :)

>>15962370
Although many of the prophecies could indeed be interpreted in other ways, the graphic I posted gives mainly the ones that aren’t up to interpretation. Virgin birth, in Bethlehem, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, etc. There are plenty of those that aren’t up for interpretation and are just simply the text itself that was fulfilled by Jesus in the NT.

>>15961785
Basically op, if you don't understand faith, you never will and no amount of explanations will help you.

>>15962444
You know that anxiety? That’s you :)

>>15962469
semen

>>15962468
like you understand faith as jesus understood.

>>15962478
like you understand faith as jesus understood.

>>15962476
semen

>>15961951
That’s a good little doggie

>>15962485
I AM Jesus.

>>15961785
Deism or Atheism. Rest is delusional trash from illiterate and uneducated people.

>>15962506
no matter how much you read about love you will not know what is it until you experience it. experience is knowledge. same with God.

>>15961785
There are many reasons why I am a Christian, not all of them rational ones. Insofar as such a reason can be provided, it is that, 1) considering my position before the perfect God who exists, something like Christianity is my only hope to truly know and love him; and 2) that the historical evidence is as good as the event allows that just such an event has occurred.

I think 1) is the easiest to defend in the abstract: considering the goodness of God, to know and love him is my highest end as a creature. Considering my limits as a creature, this end is unattainable within human power. Some kind of reconciliation of the finite and the infinite, which does not confuse them, and yet unites them, is necessary for the end of man given theism to be attainable, and hence for the human condition to be coherent. The Incarnation is just such a reconciliation, and the only possible locus of such a reconciliation. Anything less than God and man as one person would fail to bridge the gap between man and God. Hence the rational pursuit of the true human good must move me to anticipate, desire and seek out the Incarnate God and the community formed around him. No other religion than Christianity preaches the One God incarnate, or binds up the defeat of death and the overcoming of sin with his advent.

>>15962502
Yes I know you’re a wetback

>>15962506
no matter how much you read about love you will not know what is it until you experience it. experience is knowledge. same with God.

>>15962525
Yes I know you’re a wetback

>>15961785
I think the thought process goes like this, though I might be incorrect, I'm very new to this stuff.
1. We cannot truly comprehend an intelligent creator, because by definition, if he created the universe, he is "above" the universe in terms of what he "can comprehend" etc. But humans only exist WITHIN the universe, which means that when you reach the limits of the universe, you also reach the limits of reason itself.
2. Therefore there is no way to either prove OR disprove an intelligent creator using reason. You've crossed over to the land of pure irrationality.
3. Therefore the only sensible course of action is to believe whatever intuitively feels right, or whatever makes you happiest, because in this sphere any belief is as good as any other. Either you're an irrationalist atheist or an irrationalist theist or who the fuck ever you wanna be. Everything is irrational. Congrats, you've transcended reason and are now an irrationalist CHAD of faith.

>>15962520
you just think this, your imagination.

>>15962540
"we". we means you and your stupid mom.

Yes I know your a wetback

>>15962540
I guess I should have said
>In this sphere any belief is as "reasonable" as any other

>>15962542
Deep

>>15962540
we". we means me and my stupid mom.

>>15962542
Yes, of course I think this. We must take every thought captive to Christ, after all.

>>15962613
no. you devote your thoughts not to Jesus, but your stupid false imagination of him, to a word.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
jesus never called himself jesus, he spoke on behalf of I, "I". I am in everyone. I am tree and people are leaves on it. I am hand and people are fingers.

>>15962613
>no. you devote your thoughts not to Jesus, but your stupid false imagination of him, to a word.
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
>jesus never called himself jesus, he spoke on behalf of I, "I". I am in everyone. I am tree and people are leaves on it. I am hand and people are fingers.

>>15962439
I'm not obligated to respond to every one of your points when I engage with your posts. I'm a Christian myself, so your write-up of biblical prophecy is nothing new to me, and there's nothing in there that I take issue with. I simply do not think you give the ancient world enough credit when you say the complexity of Jesus' teachings is proof of his divinity.

>>15961847
Does this movie have any intellectual value in watching it, or is it 90 minutes of "Christian's are so dumb for worshipping an imaginary sky daddy. You might as well worship Santa Claus lmao."

>>15962808
Jesus *is* the Word, silly. The Christian need not fear words or retreat from them, because Christ did not disdain them. When Christ lives in you, words do not distance you from God but draw you closer. Mysticism is great if it draws you closer to the reality of the Incarnation, but to he extent that it purports to be a short cut to the experience of God which circumvents the Word and therefore the Incarnation, it is a mere projection of creaturely finitude.

by being stuck-up like the christians in this thread

>>15962855
in order to experience God you need to silence internal monologue. every word is a lie, a label, a curtain that covers the unspeakable truth, knowledge, direct perception.

>>15962849
It’s
>this is my reading of it, isn’t it fucking retarded
>let’s travel to places that confirm my absolute failure as a scholar of anything
>I’m Bill Maher btw

>>15962872
Can’t wait for this dick to get stuck up your ass

>>15962892
Found the priest

>>15962877
Nope, that way lies the denial of the Incarnation and the road back into the futility of human works.

>>15962902
nope. but you are free to remain infinite idiot, you die anyway along with your opinions and hallucinations and return to Father. Dream will end, once again.

>>15962288
This is some reaching bullshit; I just checked Zec 11:12 and it's about a Shepard not being good at raising sheep, there's nothing about betraying anyone at all. Likewise, Ps 68:18 is literally just one verb about God doing something, while the new testament description of Jesus ascension into heaven is literally IDENTICAL to the Roman propaganda descriptions of Julius Caesar's ascension into divinity.
Christianity is just a bunch of Jewish con artists realizing they can keep the scam going even after the ringleader's dead.

>>15962924
Yeah that Hindu nonsense has no place in Christianity or in the human good. Repent, friend. Christ offers a better way. Seek to meet him face to face, man to man, rather than retreating into the desert of your self.

>>15962946
degenerate, I am Jesus.

>>15962946
kingdom of heaven is within. God is within. Within me is I. To see within you must become blind to outside, external. pluck your eyes.

>>15962946
my YOKE is easy and my burden is light. yoke, bond, relation, religion.

>>15962957
>>15962965
>>15962973
What the ever loving fuck

>>15963041
who is this sick old weak pathetic ugly insane shizo male in good costume?

>>15962946
Bizarrely you've managed to construct the biggest shitpost in this thread

>>15961785
>>15961872
What Torah translation you think is best?

>>15963134
dimonds to pigs are shit and shit to pigs are diamonds.

Because after looking into and reading about various religions I found that Buddhism is the one that explains how and why the world works the way it does the best, and offers the only actual solutions. The Buddha doesn't ask you to take his word on it, and instead to confirm his ideas, and after looking around, I can confirm that his ideas make sense, and after trying out meditation, I can confirm that it causes a cessation of suffering, and makes me feel good.

What more do I need?

>>15962468
Why did God create people who cannot understand faith? This makes no sense

>>15962965

God is the author of the external world, and it is good. The Kingdom of God is within me, but it cannot be contained there. It is within me because Christ brought it, from beyond myself- the mysticism of internal retreat, without first affirming Christ and the world, is nothing but spiritual onanism. If I cannot love God and love my neighbour, I do not have anything within worth seeking. The right way is to reach beyond the self. One retreats from the world only to more clearly fix one’s attention upon the holy otherness of God, and eventually to better see the world. Your sterile mysticisms are a blasphemy against God, for they deny creation, but it is not too late. For the sake of your soul, repent.