/lit/ - Literature

>>15865979
>he has had faith, ever

I read the Traditionalists actively, but you don't need to have faith or believe in the truth of what they say in order to continue to apply their thought to the world or to attempt to bring it into the social and political realm.

Though I say this as an Evolian.

Guenon is a retard.

>tfw when you spent decades studying tradition and you end up in the Third World

>>15865979
you'll find there are more people seeking holiness, true salvation and not self-divinization, in the church than in a tariqah, as I have heard from a catholic who was member of Schuon's taqirah in the US. There was never a single saint, and no one even close to that, only people backstabbing each other in search for /wisdom/.

>You will know them by their fruits.

Aquinas point on lack of miracles in the life of mohammed/islam compared to the church is also valid.

From time to time I read a work of Guénon and what always comes to mind is: how could he have apostatized? He must never have had the grace of loving our Lord Jesus Christ in the beginning. If you acknowledge the resurrection and reject christianity you are intellectually compromised, if you deny you are compromised as well.

Read Borella

> singular multiplicity

Is this satire?

>>15866191
Yes, this is also the argument of Garrigou-Lagrange: natural premystics can exist outside the Church but they do not have the effectiveness of the Church's supernatural mysticism. I find this argument very unconvincing: I know of no Christian/Catholic who has reached states of mystical union, whereas I know of many serious yogic practitioners (Buddhists and Hindus) who have reached such states in a few years of practice. If we judge by effectiveness, the Church doesn't seem to me to be in first place...

>>15865979
Read The Book of Jobs and Psalms.

>>15866198
As far as I know, Borella doesn't talk about it. He never talks about the exclusivity of salvation and never explains how this doctrine can be reconciled with the recognition of the mystics outside of the Church.

>>15866223
I don't know much about yoga, but doesn't the practice rely on sensory experiences in the first place? Similar to the navel gazing and hyper ventilation of the hesychasts that ends up in a vision of the supposed 'uncreated light'. This does not seem to be a product of true mysticism reached by the intellect.

>>15866234
No, I'm talking about contemplative yogas (Hindu raja yoga and Buddhist yoga) these are meditations and contemplations, nothing to do with the hatha yoga popular in the West (that of gymnastic postures and breath control).

For example in raja yoga, the yogi can meditate on an object of concentration (God or his breath) until he reaches mystical union (samadhi) with it.

has a sufi or hindu 'saint' ever raised someboy from the dead? I do not think so, but in the history of the church many saints did raise people from the dead.

>>15866245
>has a sufi or hindu 'saint' ever raised someboy from the dead?
Yes

Is this the Dragon Ball Z thread

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RQgYQWVR_k&feature=emb_title

Time for mass.

Why would you trust a perosn who's face looks like a demon himself?

>>15866036
>you don't need tradition to maintain your tradition

>>15866478
How do you get him to shout out the name of your loved ones on the livestream like that? Do they stream this on Twitch?

>>15866479
this

>>15866507
Cringe

>>15865979
None of this stops you from following Jesus Christ

>>15865979
>the whole primacy of Christianity will collapse.
I feel this as well. Christianity is only good for its antisemitism and ban of circumcision.

>>15866746
Are u stupid

>>15865979
So the fact that other people talk about wanting to achieve union with God you suddenly dont believe in the death and resurrection of Christ?

>>15866849
>So the fact that other people talk about wanting to achieve union with God
No. The fact that the followers of other religious paths arrive more effectively at the states of union with God of our saints makes me doubt the exclusivity of salvation and the primacy of Christianity.

>>15866491
Really, having faith and traditionalism are incompatible.

>>15866865
James Cutsinger would say that it doesn't exclude the fact Jesus is the only path, in the sense that even people outside of christianity have to reach Jesus in the end. You might have heard or know him, he's published together with schuon and all others. It is an interesting point but I'm not that condescending to other traditions as he is, and I'm not orthodox either.

>>15866865
Two things there firstly how do you know they are actually reaching those states "more effectively" and secondly why would that cause you to doubt the teachings of Jesus and the prophecies he fulfilled?

>>15866865
What do you mean arrive more effectively at Union with God? Christianity has its mystics but for them union with God is to be like christ, and its achieved with the help of the spirit, so they end up going out into the world making it better, Muslim mystics are absurd, twirling like a fakhir does not help to achieve mystical Union, doing nofap in the desert doesn't either, explain to me geunons metaphysics and we will judge if he truly went further

It all comes down to accepting Jesus' words as truth or not --- why would anyone assume he was lying? This is absurd. To doubt for a second because of the texts of other men is weak or even an act of bad faith. Meditate on the truth of Jesus' words and his complete sincerity

>>15866892
>Two things there firstly how do you know they are actually reaching those states "more effectively
Already explained here >>15866223
>why would that cause you to doubt the teachings of Jesus and the prophecies he fulfilled?
If other ways lead to God more effectively than his own, it is a problem for the one who says he is the only way.

>>15866893
>What do you mean arrive more effectively at Union with God?
I speak of the mystical union with God, of the inner realization, of the beatific vision.

>>15865979
He's a heretic

REMINDER: Guénon (pbuh) was circumcised following his conversion to Islam. You are now imagining a naked Guénon (pbuh) with his foreskinless penis.

Read Jean Borella. He was a Catholic and answered this ub great detail. Christ the original mystery is his best book to start with so long as you've read at least 5 or so of Guenon's books.

>>15866491
That is exactly what Guenon argued, yes. "Tradition" and "tradition" are two different things. The latter is merely a tool to get to the former. That's the entire point of Traditionalism.

>>15867275
-> >>15866227

>>15867262
"Guenon waz muslim lol"

No.

"What also surprised me a great deal was the regret that I had no biographical information about myself; this is something I have always formally opposed, and above all for a reason of principle, because, according to traditional doctrine, individualities count for nothing and must disappear entirely ... But, in spite of this, I am obliged at least to rectify erroneous assertions when they occur; For example, I cannot let it be said that I am "converted to Islam", because this way of presenting things is completely false; anyone who is aware of the essential unity of traditions is by this very fact "unconvertible" to anything, he is even the only one who is; but he can "settle down", if it is permitted to express himself in this way, in this or that tradition according to circumstances, and especially for reasons of an initiatory nature. I would like to add in this regard that my links with Islamic esoteric organizations are not something more or less recent as some people seem to think; in fact, they are almost 40 years old...".
- Letter from René Guénon to A. Daniélou, August 27, 1947, my translation - i'm french and my English is bad so sorry if there are mistakes

Retarded Muslims who try to grab his glory must get out. Guénon was Sufi at the end of his life, for purely practical reasons: he already had links with Sufi organizations and he wanted to leave France. The closest and most convenient was the Maghreb.

99.99% of the Muslims who try to seize Guénon's genius by saying "he converted to Islam lol" are refuted by the master himself in this letter and probably never read him, because they would make apostate any Muslim having 1/10th of Guénon's beliefs. Some points of his belief in brief:

1. that all religions are currently valid to lead to God and that Islam is only the most practical path of our time for a European
2. that deliverance (union with the Absolute, death of the ego, al-fana' ) is superior to salvation (entry into paradise), the latter being there for the masses when deliverance is the way of the elites
3. that the world is a part of God and that there is an Absolute superior to the personal God.
4. that it is desirable to achieve supra-individual states through intiation
5. that there is an esoteric path that transcends religious divisions

The Sufi Islam of Guénon is: yes.

The exoteric Islam of 99.99% of the Muslims on earth: it's no, it's shit, and it's probably the worst exotericism still alive.

Small message to the islamists who play the guenonfags to convert naive people to their shitty sect.

>>15867325
Kek

>>15867414
>Guénon's own practice was purely Islamic. He is "not known ever to have recommended anyone to become a Hindu, whereas he introduced many to Islam".[14]
>René Guénon died on Sunday, January 7, 1951; his final word was "Allah".[24]
You're just a buttmad pajeet who cannot accept the fact that your literary father figure accepted Islam instead of Hinduism, instead of pasting your old pasta mr guenonfag (pretending not to be guenonfag again for the 8714314th time) maybe actually come to terms with this reality and fact of history: Guenon recited the shahadah.

>>15867568
>believe his quotes refutes my post
Breinlet

>g-guenon wasn't a muslim!!!
lol

>la ilaha illallah
>muhammadarrasulullah
-Guenon, 1910

Guénon misunderstood many things about Christianity. He probably had a poor understanding of the egyptian mysteries and theology and of late platonism (neoplatonism). Spiritual experiences don't mean salvation.

>>15865979
>If the mystics outside the Church reach the same states as our saints, contemplate the same Union with God, the whole doctrine of the exclusivity of salvation and the whole primacy of Christianity will collapse.
Does it though? From what I've read the Christian position is more accommodating than people typically let on

>Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.[

- Kallistos Ware

If indeed God is omniscient and can see into the hearts of all men and chooses to save some people not formally in the Church based on what He sees in their hearts or for reasons unknowable to us than Christianity can still be reconcilled with perennialism/traditionalism

>>15866234
>I don't know much about yoga, but doesn't the practice rely on sensory experiences in the first place?
No, the opposite, in the Samkhya school which the Yoga darsana is based on, people focus on trying to separate their consciousness (purusa) from the material world (prakriti), it's not a practice based on utilizing sensory experiences (which are produced by prakriti) to feel altered states. The practice of yoga in the other Vedantic and Tantric schools typically doesn't rely on sensory experiences either but it is more of a mental meditation or metaphysical introspection depending on the school.
>>15866893
>Muslim mystics are absurd, twirling like a fakhir does not help to achieve mystical Union, doing nofap in the desert doesn't either
I recommend trying to read some of this text before making any more ignorant and superficial generalizations about Sufism

https://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/egt/index.htm

>h-he did it for practical reasons
I'm sure race mixing with some araboid female and having children in Cairo was VERY practical

>>15867614
Go back on pol brainlet

Seraphim Rose is the next step, and orthodox theology

>>15867722
Where does he answers Guenon

>>15867606
>He probably had a poor understanding of the egyptian mysteries
It wasn't a major focus of his but he occasionally wrote about and referenced Egyptian teachings, this is an article by him on the Hermetic tradition.

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/Hermes-by_Rene_Guenon.aspx

>and of late platonism (neoplatonism).
He didn't study it much but I've never seen any indication that he had some misunderstanding about it. He correctly noted that Plotinus never made permanent union/liberation (which could be attained while still living) a part of his system, Guenon made a judgement about that being inferior to doctrines with a permanent union/liberation, you can disagree with the judgement but that fact which he noted is still true regardless

>>15867568
>mr guenonfag (pretending not to be guenonfag again for the 8714314th
Guenonfag here, I actually like Sufism and have enjoyed reading various Sufi poetry and metaphysical tracts. Guenon's conversion to Islam does not bother me, a good deal of Sufism reaches almost identical metaphysical conclusions to Vedanta etc. I respect Islam a lot but am just more into Hinduism

>>15867606
>Spiritual experiences don't mean salvation.
He never said that.

>>15867986
Hermetic tradition is not legitimate ancient egyptian theology, its writings are from ~300AD.

>never seen any indication that he had some misunderstanding about it.
This is obvious, he never mentioned it in the first place.
Has Shankara written anything close to the Enneads? Atmaboddha is so fucking boring holy shit.

>>15868093
In other words. And I meant that to OP.

>>15868202
Beatific vision is not a mere experience.

>>15865979
Ironic, you have a genuine jesus in your midst, even better, and you still seek answers in fetishized books.

>>15868202
>Has Shankara written anything close to the Enneads?
Yes, his prose commentaries are full of wonderous passages and illuminating insights, I find them to be more lucid than the Enneads. Why would you compare the verses of Shankara to the prose of Plotinus, have you not read any of Shankara's prose commentaires? I find his Upanishad commentaries to be more beautiful but his Brahma Sutra bhasya and Gita bhasya are also masterpieces as well.

>"Śaṅkarācārya is undoubtedly one of the greatest philosophers of the world and a realised saint. He is gifted with extra-ordinary intelligence, a deeply penetrating mind, critical insight, logical reasoning, philosophical analysis, religious purity, sublimity of renunciation and profound spirituality. His literary excellence makes him shine as a writer of exemplary Sanskrit prose and soul-inspiring philosophico-religious verses.
- Chandradhar Sharma

>>15868519
I have only read his Atmaboddha and some parts of his commentaries on some Upanishads. I don't deny what Sharma wrote about him, I agree even, but none of his writings are comparable with the Enneads, sorry.

>>15866840
No u

>>15868695
U

>>15868660
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I still like the Enneads and appreciate them as a product of the creativity and intelligence of Plotinus, but they were written over the course of his life as his views changed and say contradictory things in different parts because of this. It's partially for this reason that I find Shankara's works more metaphysically compelling because individually and as a whole they are completely internally consistent, they read like he already had it all figured out before he wrote his first work the Brahma Sutra bhasya at age 12 instead of him figuring it out as he went along.

>>15868915
Shankara had a thousand-year-old tradition before he started writing.

>>15866893
Sufism has The Perfect Man as their mediator between God and man role:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ibn-arabi/#PerMan

>>15869074
No

>>15869028
Yes, even older if you count the metaphysical material in the pre-Upanishad Vedic layers from the 2nd millenium BC. Are you not the same poster who is always talking about how platonism and Plotinus are the continuation of ancient Egyptian tradition? What you said about Shankara applies to Plotinus just as well.

>>15869476
>Are you not the same poster who is always talking about how platonism and Plotinus are the continuation of ancient Egyptian tradition?
http://www.sofiatopia.org/maat/ten_keys.htm

>>15865979
Doesn't the pope say other religions lead to god too

>>15866191
Schuon's tariqa wasn't a traditional organization. It was a cult. He converted to islam and got given a certificate of conversion, and somehow decided this meant he had qualification to become a shaykh.

Anyway, I spent time in a sufi lodge/madrassa in yemen and it's not like that. Mostly deluded young people who start learning a little bit then start thinking they can now order people around, at least at first, maybe like schuon felt. Then after about a year, you should see the look in their eyes, they are broken people by that time. No more ego, thinking they are shaykhs or holy anymore. Most of them leave and go back to their countries at this time because they have been exposed, although they don't realize it. Their initial behaviour showed they just wanted power over others and esteem in others eyes. Then when they didn't get that, when they'd been broken down by the constant routine of prayer, athkar, awrad, mawlids etc, lack of sleep, intense study, no freedom etc. (we weren't even allowed to have phones or leave the premises when we wanted) then they leave, because they didn't really want God. If they really wanted God, they'd recognise their evil and repent, but nearly none did. They just left and gave up.

>>15869476
Completely different situation. Plato and Plotinus had ~600 years of separation between them. What was Egypt by the time Plotinus lived? I would say this continuation is intellectually, not hieratically.

>>15868202
>Atmaboddha is so fucking boring holy shit.
Dude, the Atma Bodha is only like 20 pages lmao.

>>15870398
He's a brainlet

Bump

>>15871076
What do you want to know ???

These religions like Catholicism have to tell you their religion is the one true one so you'll take it seriously. If you believe other ways can lead to the goal many people would become confused by that and not just stick to one thing. Originally maybe it was skillful means to tell you all there's only one way, now it's just dogmatic bs

>>15871144
Dogma isn't inherently bad

>>15870398
>>15870590
And it is literally the same thing over and over again just like the Ashtavakra Gita. Explain how You Are Brahman, Inexpressible Infinitude!! for 50 pages straight is intellectually stimulating.

>>15871384
Yeah

>>15871384
That's because a teacher can tailer his lessons to the personality of the student so that he can understand, but a text can't do that. The author has to explain the concepts in so many different ways until something clicks with the reader and finally gets it. That's also why there are so many texts that explain the same thing.

>>15871963
all of this to cope with the fact that they produced bad things?

>>15872114
Except they're not bad, all you did was complain about them being repetitive, but if you enjoy X then repeated X just means repeated joy, and there are also plenty of non-repetitive Hindu writings to read if that's such a big issue

>>15872343
They are platitudinous repetitions from the Upanishads.

>if you enjoy X then repeated X just means repeated joy
False. After a few times it starts to annoy. Atmaboddha and Ashtavakra and Avadhuta Gita should be composed in terse hymns like the ones Shankara wrote (Bhaja Govindam for example, which is good).

>there are also plenty of non-repetitive Hindu writings to read if that's such a big issue.
the thing is that this has no relation to the matter here, which is: Atmaboddha sucks.

>>15872437
>platitudinous repetitions from the Upanishads
In the Upanishads these ideas are often interwoven heavily with parables, reference to Vedic mythology, various eulogies etc, these types of texts can be helpful to some people because they get right to the point

I didn't find Atma Bodha to be that repetitive. It starts out with introducing the topic of the Supreme Self, then moves on to explaining why it is naturally hidden to us and explains how to distinguish it from non-Self like the mind and objects, then it moves on to a discussion of various Yogic methods for attaining and always residing within the bliss of the Self, and then it finishes up by describing the fruits of this endeavor and what it is like to be a fully illuminated man. Overall a fairly concise summary of some of the important teachings of the Upanishads. 10/10 would read again.

>>15871363
not inherently, but if its just something you just need to believe for no reason at all then its bad.

>>15872437
>Bhaja Govindam
hare krishna detected

>>15872437
You're that idiot who shows up in every vedanta thread and rages against shankara for being "buddhist" arent you?

>>15867325
Damn he even retroactively btfod himself.

Which commentary of atmabodha should I read, nikhilanada's or chinmayananda's?

>>15866507
Based

>>15865979
>>15866479
>>15866507
Why would you trust a racemixer?

>>15866889
I agree with this

>>15874726
Poltards please go somewhere else

>>15874595
Cringe

>>15875150
Cringe

>>15875163
No u

>>15875179
Pet Z 0 ld

>>15875188
Stfu thx

>>15875198
petz 0 I d

>>15875214
>>15875198

>>15875333
PET 2 OLD

>>15875368
S
T
F
U

>>15875404
N 0

>>15875425
Reported

>>15867414
>>The Sufi Islam of Guénon is: yes.
>
>The exoteric Islam of 99.99% of the Muslims on earth: it's no, it's shit, and it's probably the worst exotericism still alive.
Muslim here. I've got work to do this morning but if this thread stays up (and if you give enough fucks to hear my take) I'll respond to this.
Short version: you don't know shit about the vast majority of Muslims around the world or the type of Islam we follow.

>>15875451
I've been a Muslim for years, I've studied fiqh, madhahib... If you're trying to tell me "it's not Islam wallah, no amalgam": don't waste your time.

>>15867262
This means he was circumcised as an adult. I am now imagining a bearded imam holding his limp penis in excitement as he begins to cut through that french foreskin.

>>15875577
No

>>15865979
READ OTHER BOOKS FOR ONCE YOU SHIT THIS BOARD UP LIKE IT'S YOUR FUCKING LITTLE SISTERS STUFFED BEAR.

>>15875800
I read other books u faggot.

>>15875800
Yea he reads other books like the Shankara's diary and...........etc

>>15875860
Cringe

>>15875906
yea I agree OP is pretty cringe isn't he

>>15875860
Cringe

>>15875911
Why all the tards gather here

>>15876019
Cringe

>>15865979
In which book Guenon said this about christianity? Anyway read Introduction to Christianity by the goat Ratzinger, also take a look on christianity charts in /lit/ wikia.

>tfw fucking nobody here has actually read anything they are talking about

>>15875467
>for years
so... 2 years? this ummah can't be summed up as "muh normie Islam, dey all sheep"
Even 7 members of the same household follow vastly different takes on Islam (yes I'm talking about my own household but I know from my travels and meetings with 10000s of other Muslims over the years that this isn't specific to me).
Also I *am* technically a Sufi. Naqshbandi. An actual mureed of Sheikh Nazim.

>>15876050
Yeah, welcome to people discussing Evola and Guenon. The real intellectuals are in the Schmitt threads.

>>15867414
>2. that deliverance (union with the Absolute, death of the ego, al-fana' ) is superior to salvation (entry into paradise), the latter being there for the masses when deliverance is the way of the elites
>3. that the world is a part of God and that there is an Absolute superior to the personal God.
these two are simply wrong. it makes no sense for ishvara to have absolute personality and brahman, the absolute, not to. the souls being eternal already make it salvation the highest possibility. there will be different states according to the holiness, sure, but an indistinct union is impossible due to the own fact souls are eternal

Jesus: I love all humans. Believe in me and you will be saved.

Catholics: only our specific metaphysical theory that is not found in the Bible anywhere but was invented by 4th century Roman ex-gnosticists will lead to salvation but only if you perform these complex rituals like putting a disk of bread on your tongue or painting an ashen cross on your face, only then will Jesus love you

>>15876144
>protestant understanding
what part of
>do this in remembrance of me
do you not understand? do you think the apostles did not do that? justin martyr around the year 150 was already recording the liturgical practices with holy communion being Christ Himself
>but was invented by 4th century Roman ex-gnosticists
the same people who in the council of rome recognized the NT canon you follow for your modern 'sola scriptura' --- nowhere supported by the bible

prots with their modern errors are the biggest enemies of christianity i have no doubt about that

>>15876144
>Jesus: I love all humans. Believe in me and you will be saved.
Citation needed.

>>15876134
Wrong according to you, but that's Guenon's beliefs.

prots are crypto-satanists. just watch how they promptly blaspheme against sacred aspects of christianity for vain sentimentality while they crown themselves their own popes, supreme authorities of their religion. every prot is his own pope entitled to stablish what is and what is not

>>15876177
>justin martyr around the year 150 was already recording the liturgical practices with holy communion being Christ Himself
And the countless other Eastern churches had completely different practices. Justin Martyr, a mere human, had no special authority to invent the rules of what it means to be in Communion with Christ. You don't believe in any prophets after our Lord, do you anon?

>the same people who in the council of rome recognized the NT canon you follow for your modern 'sola scriptura' --- nowhere supported by the bible
Oh you mean the texts which were almost universally agreed upon way before the council of Rome? 'Sola scriptura' means nothing more than: let's not read the pagan folk garbage of heroes and dragons like how P*pists do.

Protestantism arose out of the Church abusing its believers by making them pay large sums of money in exchange for access to heaven. The history of the Catholic Church is filled with horrible episodes of warmongering, violence, sexual abuse, pedophilia, power politics, extortion etc etc. Name a sin and the Catholic Church is guilty of it a thousand fold. Just look at the child abuse scandals that have been going on for decades only for the Church to cover it up rather than to bring those people to justice.

Not to mention the whole 'don't acquire riches on this earth' and the Catholic churches being made of marble and gold worth millions. Not to mention the worship of statues, of saints who are proscribed all kinds of miracle powers, and who are even understood as being able to receive prayers. Not to mention the disgusting worship of Mary as a demigod which stems from practices of pagan Germanic worship of Freya. I can go on and on. But I'm sure like any Catholic you will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify worshipping all kinds of people who have been arbitrarily chosen to become saints by a worldy power.

The history of the Church is evil because it is so far removed from the love Christ has taught us. Demonic presence is the only explanation for this, and this happens when faith is weak. Where do you think all those stories of horrible sadistic abuse of little boys come from? Instead of rooting out that horribly evil problem, Catholics are obsessed with golden crosses and the magical movement in which those croses need to be turned, or whether or not the pope wants a diamond ring, or whether or not the hall of the Church smells good enough, or whether or not Saint Babalobolus from Timbuktu has received his coins, Catholics worship this earth, they worship the physical.

>>15876192
It's the literal meaning of the Greek word 'agapè'. But of course Caths cling on to some unreliable Latin translation that mistranslates agapè as 'caritas'.

>>15876339
Go create another thread u fucker. Not the subject of this one

>>15876309
Catholics fundamentally lack any self-reflection. What about the 2000 year history of the Church abusing its own believers, of murder, oppression, war, sexual scandals etc etc? No let's blame the prots instead. Let's forget the millions killed in Latin America after Spain colonized it for missionary reasons. But no the real satanists are those who refuse to believe in magic fairy tales of dragons and ghostly visitors in caves and literal pre-Christian pagan practices.

>>15876347
The truth hurts, p*pist. Maybe ask some statue for forgiveness? Or pray to an image of an old man with a beard that is supposed to be God? If that doesn't work, why not go on your knees for a literal arm bone or a finger of some forgotten desert weirdo hermit? I bet it's very important to Christ how many collar bones or pieces of skin you have worshipped.

>>15876359
>>15876370
That's not the fucking subject of this thread.

God why do I always attract all the retards...

>>15876339
>And the countless other Eastern churches had completely different practices.
all eastern liturgies follow the same pattern with the apex being the consacration of the host. if you study liturgy you'll notice this. justin martyr did not invent anything he was just recording history

funny how protestants feel affinity to orthodox and oriental churches just for the rebellion against rome, when the eastern and oriental churches preach the same things as the catholic church (liturgy, rites, veneration of icons etc)

did not bother to read the rest.
>>15876359
most cruel persecutions were performed by protestants in england, netherlands and germany

completely deluded person. one of the most miserable posters ive seen in years of /lit/. you speak lies propagated by mainstream media and cringe protestant sites. your father is the father of lies. you miserable liar. begone to your den of liars. if you were of christ you would not be spreading disgusting lies

>>15876339
Also I forgot to mention that when shit hit the fan, Catholics always chose the side of the oppressor. They accomodated fascism in Italy, turned a blind eye to the genocide of WW2, were involved with slavery and violent colonialism not to mention the centuries of mob justice of burning so-called 'heretics' to death. If Christ would come back on earth he'd burn Rome to ashes to purify this earth of its wickedness. But hey at least they got some cool art out of it

>>15876399
Stay mad butthurt papist. Just pray to the patron saint of the internet, who actually and unironically exists.

Protestant persecutions were almost always political / secular in nature, whereas Catholics wanted us to believe that burning people is actually what Christ wants us to do.

Catholicism is peak hypocrisy.

>did not bother to read the rest.
Ironic, as literacy exploded during the Reformation. Catholics are frightened of their believers reading the Bible of their own, because they know they're full of shit.

>>15876417
>Also I forgot to mention that when shit hit the fan, Catholics always chose the side of the oppressor. They accomodated fascism in Italy, turned a blind eye to the genocide of WW2
LMAO.
The WW2 itself is because of the Protestants, assume it instead of blaming the Catholics.
It was German Protestants who put Hitler in power.

>>15876417
This thread is about some mystical pajeet. Take this to /b/ or something

>>15874080
Nikhilananda's is pretty in-depth and I think it comes with some of Shankara's smaller poems too

>>15876417
>>15876339
>Catholics wanted us to believe that burning people is actually what Christ wants us to do.
funny how protestants sound like the average atheist
prots burnt a lot of people; the inquisition had a lot of rules not to drop blood, to be accompanied by physicians, trials and right of defense, etc.
as for ''churches made of gold...'' the church was the home of the poor people.

>>15866491
A universal truth is a universal truth, acting on that helps the common good. Whether that truth is the result of a Olympian supernatural force or purely optimum human action, the result is the same. Traditionalism works as both as a spiritual discipline, as well as a sort of natural law.

>>15877150
Kek

>>15876192
John 3:16

>>15876134
>these two are simply wrong. it makes no sense for ishvara to have absolute personality
Ishvara does not have 'absolute personality', Ishvara has personality, but Ishvara is not the Absolute
>brahman, the absolute, not to.
Why not? There is nothing inherently illogical about a sentient and unlimited Absolute existing without being delimited by a personality
>the souls being eternal already make it salvation the highest possibility.
wrong
>there will be different states according to the holiness, sure, but an indistinct union is impossible due to the own fact souls are eternal
An 'indistinct union' is neither taught nor written about by Guenon or Vedanta, Guenon specifically warns in his writings against people who teach that as being counterfeit pseudo-spirituality. In the non-dualist metaphysics that Guenon writes about the union between the eternal soul and God is not an actual union but is more of a remembrance of one's true identity. The term 'union' is only used figuratively to refer to that which had only become separated virtually returning to its actual nature.

If you were playing a video game and become so engrossed in it that you forgot about your life and began to identify with the character you were controlling in the game and suffered fear when he was in danger and experienced pride as his achievements, and then you suddenly remembered that it was just a game and that the video game's character was not you, and that you were actually a separate being who existed prior to that character; would you say that there was an 'indistinct union' between the video game character and your true identity? No you wouldn't, that would be foolish. This analogy accurately transposes to what Guenon wrote about and shows how inaccurate it is to regard 'union' in non-dualism as being indistinct or confused in any way, true union or liberation in non-dualism is the apex of clarity.

>>15878419
Hi fren
I know where does this image come from
I'm OP, what do you think of my problem

>>15865979

I suggest reading Orgin and Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite.

As for what follows, I dont see how this should make you doubt Christianity, the church fathers have long held that it was possible for pagans to reach an understanding of God and to be counted as virtuous and deserving of God's mercy. For example Plato & Aristotle, Pope Gregory the Great prayed for Trajan, Thecla prayed for Falconilla. Plato & Aristotle for their intellectual rigour which was seen as prefiguring Christianity, Trajan because he was seen as the Optimus Princeps, a fair & just ruler in-spite of his persecutions of Christians and Thecla was merely friends with Falconilla mother.

The fact of the Matter is that GOD is a universal truth which all men can reach via contemplation, Christianity may have an easier time of reaching the truth because of the direct connection with God via apostolic succession but that doesn't deprive peoples of other faiths from contemplating the universe and coming to know God, even in a less complete way.

>>15865979
You can't. He dickstroyed Christianity once and for all. All you can do is accept and try to find salvation in another philosophy, such as Kant's Categorical Imperative.

>>15878531
I agree with the people in this thread who say that this doesn't necessarily have to be a reason for you to doubt or leave Christianity, this post >>15867609 is also mine. I've never had the same problem because I was never raised Christian, but I can understand it on some level as someone who finds eastern metaphysics more compelling than the standard 'exoteric' and non-metaphysical understanding of Christianity. When you actually look into how the Church and eastern orthodoxy has written about the exclusivity of salvation there seem to be loopholes left open which allow Christianity to be reconciled with Perennalism. I've read that it's the official position of the Catholic Church the people outside the Church can still be saved by Jesus through his grace or something along those lines. For example

>John Paul II in his Encyclical on the Missions in §10 says the same [emphasis added]: "For such people [those who do not formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church."

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=71

Just because there isn't (in the modern world) as well a developed culture of Christian mysticism/esoterism/henosis etc compared to eastern religions doesn't mean that Christian mysticism is invalid or something. Maybe you should look into exploring in depth the writings of Christian mystics and metaphysicians and assorted literature like Clement of Alexandria, Nicholaus of Cusa, Eriugena, Meister Eckhart, The Cloud of Unknowing, Jakob Bohme, Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, Maximus the Confessor, the Philokalia etc. Some of those texts come very close to Sufi and Hindu conceptions of God and provide an avenue for reconciling one's Christian faith with the points raised by Guenon etc. If you work on changing your habits so that you can spend most of your free time reading through huge amounts of primary source metaphysical literature every day like the aforementioned stuff it can sometimes be really life-changing and reinvigorate one's faith in God. You can always leave Christianity and join another religion but when there is such an abundance of valuable Christian metaphysical writings you might as well try to explore them in depth first.

>>15878607
> All you can do is accept and try to find salvation in another philosophy, such as Kant's Categorical Imperative.
Guenon never destroyed Christianity but he did destroy Kant

> Before passing on to consider time, however, it may be pointed out that the inexistence of an 'empty space' is enough to expose the absurdity of one of Kant's too famous cosmological antinomies: to ask 'whether the world is infinite or whether it is limited within space' is a question that has absolutely no meaning. Space cannot possibly extend beyond the world in order to contain it, because an empty space would then be in question, and emptiness cannot contain anything: on the contrary, it is space that is in the world, that is to say, in manifestation, and if consideration be confined to the domain of corporeal manifestation alone, it can be said that space is coextensive with this world, because it is one of its conditions; but this world is no more infinite than is space itself, for, like space, it does not contain every possibility, but only represents a certain particular order of possibilities, and it is limited by the determinations that constitute its very nature.

Bump

>>15872437
Similar repetitions occur in Buddhist texts as well. This is something frequent in cultures where memorization is employed more often. You probably remember a similar explanation for the countless occurrences of "The rosy fingered dawn" and "The wine dark sea" when you read the Odyssey in high school.

>>15876505
Based prots

>>15879688
Guenon being unmathematical does not understand pure space as an abstraction. He is literally and literairy stupid.

bump

>>15883244
try fleshing out what you wrote into a real critique you blabbering moron

>>15884297
Yeah

>>15865979
>If the mystics outside the Church reach the same states as our saints, contemplate the same Union with God, the whole doctrine of the exclusivity of salvation and the whole primacy of Christianity will collapse
No, soteriology matters.

>>15885747
How can they not be saved and still access beatific vision? Makes no sense

>>15879688

god isn't real

>>15885890
>>15885899
Cringe

>Cringe

>>15885907
Cringe

>>15866491
>reading guenon is tradition

>>15866223
>I know of no Christian/Catholic who has reached states of mystical union,
that's too anecdotal to be of value. How would you really know? This isn't the type of thing which people advertise. Try going to a church spiritual retreat instead of mass, maybe? That might be a good place to gauge the current state of Christian mysticism.

>>15868202
>Hermetic tradition is not legitimate ancient egyptian theology, its writings are from ~300AD.
they didn't come out of thin air.

>>15869813
he says that from a humanist standpoint, not a traditionalist standpoint. You need to be able to discern the difference.

>>15865979
Stop watching Yaldaboath and take the Gnosis pill.

>>15878564
Would you say the merit of evangelizing comes from leading people closer to the truth?

>>15885890
>more = better
Reign of quantity everyone

>>15886691
Yes

>>15886691
>more quality ideas vs 1 shit idea
Kant shaped an entire generation of philosophers and will be remembered for as long as humanity, Guenon remains a nonentity.

>>15886780
>ad personam + argument from authority
Kant would be proud

>>15886802
>ad personam + argument from authority
^unironically describing all guenonians

>>15886830
No
Read Guenon before taklin about him, brainlet

>>15869855
Damn.

>>15886970
Cringe

>>15883244

His point is that the abstraction is absurd and does not exist proper.

>>15887084
No U

>>15886691
This

>>15866889
I disagree with this.

>>15866893
No fap in the desert is literally Christian mysticism, ever heard of the desert fathers?

>>15867986
>Plotinus never made permanent union/liberation
Because there's no such thing in the first place. Myth of Er describes descent from heaven, his myth of the cave describes a reentering of the Cave.
The highest goal of a Platonist is to become a guardian for the world, some to become demiurges, co-creators of reality; some to become teachers like himself, guiding man, or heroes or even kings that lead man to greater heights.
'Liberation' as so many delusional sages speak is itself an illusion.

>>15868202
>Hermetic tradition is not legitimate ancient egyptian theology, its writings are from ~300AD.
>hasn't reas pyramid and Coffin texts showing that all the believes in Hermeticism go back as far as 2500BC.

>>15887736
>Because there's no such thing in the first place.
Wrong
>The highest goal of a Platonist is to become a guardian for the world, some to become demiurges, co-creators of reality; some to become teachers like himself, guiding man, or heroes or even kings
Guardians, demiurges, co-creators and kings are all still in bondage and subject to the vicissitudes of hunger, desire, pain, the pairs of opposites etc. The grandiose existence of even the gods is a relatively hellish one compared to the complete unfettered freedom and bliss of the Supreme Self. The Upanishads also teach the pathway to becoming Gods like Brahma etc but this is a lesser path for people who are unable to overcome their attachments and who are not ready for final liberation. Plotinus was right up a certain point but he seems to have never made the final breakthrough, and so evidently his school only goes so far as attaining union with Brahma which is first elaborated as one possible path in the first section of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad but which is then shown to be inferior to the complete freedom of liberation in the later portions of the Upanishad. The desire to attain the exhalted state of a demiurge or king is a parasitic mental complex which subsists through ignorance and which only distracts you away from your own Self, which is already fullfilled and complete, and which has no need to attain anything.

>>15866223
Saint John of the Cross

Yeah Guenon seems like a retard who bounced from religion to religion simply based on whichever one seemed coolest to him. I can see why so many “tradcaths” like him, he’s got the same retarded ethos of pretending to be religious. Simply disregard his work entirely and start going to church

>>15888000
Are u dumb

>>15888013
Ur insults dont convince me

>>15887983
A demiurge or king is the opposite of tyrant or even a god.
It's a duty, and it is the very opposite of what you said, Plotinus did believe eternal union was possible, but it was Iamblichus who revealed through the true ancient faith of Egypt and Assyrians that beyond the One is the Ineffable, an Ineffable Plotinus rightly observed was beyond the distinction of the One and the Ineffable, yet they are not identical. Because the Ineffable isn't just beyond Difference but also beyond Unity and Rest.
In your Dualism of change and rest to attain nothing.
The Ineffable is super activity. Super rest.
Thus to be united with the Ineffable Good is to return to your place in the Hierarchy, and upon being fitted like a puzzle piece onto the spheres, your seans cuts of distinction dissipate and the whole become a spotless perfection.
Everything bad in the world is borne from nothing but the anarchy of souls, turning away from their duties.
Liberation seeking is nothing but the highest extreme of selfishness. The ascetics who do nothing for others, delude themselves that they're moving towards transcendence, but all you're doing is moving against the current, that is Nous Epistrophe into the One-Being, backwards into the Flux of the absolutely indefinite Dyad. There you fall into mud of forgetfulness, and your soul enters the closest thing to death. A sleep of anti-being. Shattered into so many fragments you are dissolved. This is the Buddhist nirvana, the worst thing that could ever happen to you, like becoming an ant, or bacteria, it's not the height of consciousness, of self, but its bottom.

>>15888138
We are meant to restore unity in the world, first by restoring the gold in our souls to its proper central place of our heart, there holding the threeds of desire and pleasure and pain in the mean. Then to harmonize the world as guardians, you might need several visions of the Good to find you way up the holy light into the Good and there find All and One in Harmony. Damascius' three Henads, who Ineffably stand apart without disorder.
To rebuild the Pyramid of Being, to find all of Dionysus in ourselves and reconstitute him, and there enter the Golden Age, the Blessed Islands.

One should imagine building a pyramid of blocks, that once the pyramid is whole, the very distance between all blocks dissappear, now the error is to say the pyramid becomes merely One. Rather it is the Many that are One, and this is Harmony. Amun-Atum-ra didn't Will to rise from within the watery darkness over the Lotus for no fucking reason. Especially not to just bring all things back into him as he will at the end of this Super Cycle. In eternity he will once again emanate the all. And in eternity return all.

>>15888073
That proves i’m right

>>15885890
>NOOOOO you cant point to inventions and new ideas that expand our consciousness, because that makes someone superior and we cant have people being superior! Nooooo!! People need to bend 5 times a day and take a big metaphysical shit in some ugly whorehouse of a temple!

>>15888138
>A demiurge or king is the opposite of tyrant or even a god.
I didn't equate them as being all the same or accuse them of being tyrants, my point was that qua delimited and particularized beings they are in bondage
>In your Dualism of change and rest to attain nothing.
There is no dualism, Brahman is beyond all distinctions and qualifications. The dual ideas of change and rest are only concepts that the mind superimposes on Brahman
>The Ineffable is super activity. Super rest
the same could be said of Brahman who always weilds his power of maya without deviating from His nature in any way
>Thus to be united with the Ineffable Good is to return to your place in the Hierarchy
if this entails becoming heros and demiurges and kings it's still only a further wallowing in multiplicity and bondage, no matter how luxurious the cell is it remains a cell
>Everything bad in the world is borne from nothing but the anarchy of souls, turning away from their duties.
>Liberation seeking is nothing but the highest extreme of selfishness.
this is just an empty appeal to moralism which is anti-intellectual, this same attitude was ironically held by those who were responsible for the undoing of Neoplatonism as a living tradition
>There you fall into mud of forgetfulness, and your soul enters the closest thing to death.
Liberation is a remembrance of one's true nature, after which there is no more forgetfullness. The Upanishads declare the impossibility of sorrow or delusion for the liberated man.
>A sleep of anti-being. Shattered into so many fragments you are dissolved. This is the Buddhist nirvana
Liberation is not sleep, but a return to the luminous bliss of the Self, which is beyond the states of waking, dream and deep sleep which are superimposed upon It. It is also not a shattering into fragments either, but only a casting off of all fetters. The Upanishadic liberation or moksha is completely different from the Buddhist Nirvana you clown. When you try to criticize Upanishadic teachings by dragging in Buddhist concepts it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

>>15888505
>There is no dualism, Brahman is beyond all distinctions and qualifications. The dual ideas of change and rest are only concepts that the mind superimposes on Brahman
Yet you nor any of your saints ever contemplate the implications of this profound nature.
And I used Buddhism as an example of the extreme implications of liberation, Buddha realized that your liberation leads to nonbeing but wasn't Noetic enough to realize this is really bad.
Liberation in this life is exactly what Plotinus and and Platonists argue, it means that no matter what you do (which is never vice) you do not change your now attained reconnection with your whole self.
But you seek the Monad at the top of the pyramid, to cut away all that this monad has willed to be from yourself, and this great sin is what leads to nirvana, to be thrown into Tartarus.
Liberation is to correctly order your higher and lower selves, so that you are in harmony, not to let go of the reins and fly alone up Olympus. For what does Helios do with Icarus?
You are meant to grow wings while still riding your chariot, still drawn by your horses, and you are meant to follow Zeus (Nous/Intellect himself, not just your Nous alone) together with the whole choir of reality. Ever upwards.

>>15888586
>Tartarus
Hahahahaha like hahaha bro seriously hahaha come on

>>15888655
Now as the Dawn flung out her golden robe across the earth Zeus who loves the lightning summoned all the gods to assembly on the topmost peak of ridged Olympus. He harangued the immortals hanging on his words:
"Hear me, all you gods and all goddesses too, as I proclaim what the heart inside me urges. Let no lovely goddess-and no god either try to fight against my strict decree. All submit to it now, so all the more quickly I can bring this violent business to an end. And any god I catch, breaking ranks with us, eager to go and help the Trojans or Achaeans back he comes to Olympus, whipped by the lightning, eternally disgraced. Or I will snatch and hurl him down to the murk of Tartarus half the world away, the deepest gulf that yawns beneath the ground, there where the iron gates and brazen threshold loom, as far below the House of Death as the sky rides over earth then he will know how far my power tops all other gods' Come. try me, immortals, so all of you can learn. Hang a great golden cable down from the heavens, lay hold of it, all you gods, all goddesses too: you can never drag me down from sky to earth, not Zeus, the highest, mightiest king of kings. not even if you worked yourselves to death. But whenever I'd set my mind to drag you up, in deadly earnest. I'd hoist you all with ease, you and the earth, you and the sea, all together, then loop that golden cable round a horn of Olympus, bind it fast and leave the whole world dangling in mid-air—that is how far I tower over the gods, I tower over men."

>>15888586
>Buddha realized that your liberation leads to nonbeing
No it doesn't, Brahman in its natural state of liberation or complete unfettered freedom is beyond such concepts as being and non-being
>Liberation in this life is exactly what Plotinus and and Platonists argue, it means that no matter what you do (which is never vice) you do not change your now attained reconnection with your whole self.
to still be bound in a body and subject to hunger and pain and to still have mental preoccupation with attaining things and abiding by certain conditions is not real liberation
>But you seek the Monad at the top of the pyramid, to cut away all that this monad has willed to be from yourself,
Wrong, it is only following the path laid out by Brahman in the Upanishads. Brahman gave rise to both embodiment and the means of liberation, and made it so that the highest achievement of worldly existence is liberation
>Liberation is to correctly order your higher and lower selves so that you are in harmony
There are no higher and lower selves, there is only one Self.
>you are meant to follow Zeus (Nous/Intellect himself, not just your Nous alone) together with the whole choir of reality. Ever upwards.
the words of someone enamored with their own cell, decrying those who venture outwards to freedom

>>15888708
Larper

>>15888748
particles can be in multiple different states simultaneously and you find it difficult to imagine that once the nous, the heart, has been reconnected with the whole that in the face of any pain the soul remains holy.
And still you cling to this selfishness of abandoning all for the personal cessation of your own suffering.
>If a guardian seeks happiness in such a way that he’s no longer a guardian and isn’t satisfied with a life that’s moderate, stable, and—as we say—best, but a silly, adolescent idea of happiness seizes him and incites him to use his power to take everything in the city for himself, he’ll come to know the true wisdom of c Hesiod’s saying that somehow “the half is worth more than the whole.”

>It is our task as founders, then, to compel the best natures to reach the study we said before is the most important, namely, to make the ascent and see the Good. But when they’ve made it and looked sufficiently, we mustn’t allow them to do what they’re allowed to do today.
>What’s that?
To stay there and refuse to go down again to the prisoners in the cave and SHARE THEIR LABORS and honors, whether they are of less worth or of greater.
>Then are we to do them an injustice by making them live a worse life when they could live a better one?
You are forgetting again that it isn’t the law’s concern to make any one class in the city (Being) outstandingly happy but to contrive to spread happiness throughout the city by bringing the citizens into harmony with each other through persuasion or compulsion and by making them share with each other the benefits that each class can confer on the community. The law produces such people in the city, not in order to allow them to turn in whatever direction they want, but to make use of them to bind the city together.
>That’s true, I had forgotten.

Can a catholic/christian answers me?

>>15888920
>you find it difficult to imagine that once the nous, the heart, has been reconnected with the whole that in the face of any pain the soul remains holy.
Wrong, all souls are intrinsically holy regardless of whatever state they are in. However, if they are still subject to hunger, thirst, pain, cravings etc they are not actually liberated
>And still you cling to this selfishness of abandoning all for the personal cessation of your own suffering.
Wrong, it is not selfish at all, it is not the responsibility of the individual to liberate all beings in the universe. There is ultimately only one infinite Self anyway in which the multitudes of beings appear, all individuation and differentiation is not truly real, and someone seeking liberation who still feels as though they have obligations to other beings who are all the same non-dual Self anyway has simply not freed themselves from the last vestiges of ignorance. You don't have any obligations to the people in your dreams, the Self doesn't have any obligations to the products of false individuation which appear in It.

In any case, it is not true that someone who renounces everything cannot still help others attain liberation, this is a false dichotomy. People who attain liberation can and do still help others reach liberation while their body continues to live. Shankara attained liberation at a young age but then traveled all around India, establishing temples, debating opponents, instructing people and writing voluminous texts which helped to establish the truth of the Upanishadic teachings and showing the path to liberation. Even if individual teachers die out the caste system and system of ashramas or life stages ensures that there is always a continous stream of new people in every generation who are able to lead the capable to liberation. Shankara's tradition has arguably been in fact more effective than Platonism in providing spiritual guidance to people over the ages by virtue of the fact that it survived intact and lives on today while Neoplatonism was crushed with only modified fragments of it surviving in the mysticism of the Abrahamic religions.

If a tradition is carried on and taught to each generation by people who renounce everything and who require no permanent center or lodgings it becomes much more durable because it is not localized. All the Byzantines had to do was issue a few edicts shutting down the few Platonic centers of learning and that was it for Platonism. If we define success as surviving to pass down spiritual guidance to every generation then Platonism ended up a resounding failure.

>>15890097
>it is not the responsibility of the individual to liberate all beings in the universe.
No, indeed, it's the duty of all individuals in unison.
>false individuation
How does god fall into illusion?
If God didn't, why did God will there to be plurality if plurality is bad?
And if God is First how is he not before even Oneness itself?

Mother, highest of the gods, immortal Night, how, tell me this, how must I establish the stout-hearted rule of the immortals?
>Tell me, how can it be that all things are one and yet each is separate?
Night replies: Surround all things with unspeakable aither, and in the middle place the sky, and therein the boundless earth, and the sea, and therein all the constellations, which the sky has surrounded. But when you have stretched a firm bond over everything, suspend a golden chain from the aither.

So when he had taken in the might of first-born Erikepaios
he held the form of all things in his hollow stomach,
and he mixed in his limbs the power and strength of the god,
and for this reason everything in turn was gathered inside Zeus,
the wide aither and the glorious height of the sky,
the seat of both the barren sea and the glorious earth,
and great Ocean and Tartarus the lowest part of the earth
and the rivers and the boundless sea and everything else
and the blessed immortal gods and goddesses,
and as many as were in existence and as many as would be after,
became one, and in the stomach of Zeus he engendered it about to be scattered.

>>15890630

>>15890630
>How does god fall into illusion?
Brahman doesn't, the innermost Self of all beings is non-different from the already eternally liberated Brahman. The innermost Self is untouched and unbound by that which it seems to observe. Brahman's power of maya is responsible for the contingent existence of non-conscious minds and also causes the false sensation to inhere in them that they are an individualized and embodied being, when they are really non-conscious objects whose movement are illuminated by the all-pervading awareness of Brahman. Any time Advaita refers to a bound or ignorant soul, it refers to an unreal bundle of ignorance appearing in the infinite non-dual consciousness, the bundle falsely regarding itself to be a individualized consciousness, it doesn't refer to the already-free Self which provides the background or basis for the ignorance to appear in. During liberation the truth is experienced that one's innermost Self is and has always been unlimited, unbound, sorrowless, infinite and eternal self-luminous sentience which was never affected or bound by the things It seemed to witness like the mind via Its own power. Any attempt to assert that God is actually bound by the illusion of maya is witnessed as a thought in one's own consciousness, and something which consciousness or the Self witnesses as its subject doesn't actually reveal anything about that witnessing subject, it only provides indications about the observed object which is necessarily different from that witnessing subject.
>If God didn't, why did God will there to be plurality if plurality is bad?
Because the wielding of His power maya is analogous to the aimless disport or inhalation and exhalation of Brahman, something which proceeds effortlessly from Brahman's very nature without any extraneous purpose, like how the sun by its very nature always shines, as Shankara explains in pic related (the word Brahma in the picture refers to Brahman and not the demiurgic/creator Brahmā)
>And if God is First how is he not before even Oneness itself?
Brahman is beyond all such distinctions as number, size, first, being etc, Itself being the cause of those categories

>>15891177
>Because the wielding of His power maya is analogous to the aimless disport or inhalation and exhalation of Brahman, something which proceeds effortlessly from Brahman's very nature without any extraneous purpose, like how the sun by its very nature always shines
Which naturally means plurality is good because the Good causes it to be.
>Brahman is beyond all such distinctions as number, size, first, being etc, Itself being the cause of those categories
>but maya is different from Brahman who is beyond difference except his difference from maya
And here Damascius obliterates Shankara.

>>15891324
>Which naturally means plurality is good
You don't get it, all moral categories of good, evil, bad etc are unreal and are superimpositions upon Brahman who is beyond them. Identifying with the non-Self is an inferior state of existence compared to the Self residing as It is because of the sorrow and ignorance involved in the former, but this is without moral or ethical connotations.
>Brahman is beyond all such distinctions
>but maya is different from Brahman who is beyond difference except his difference from maya
There is no contradiction, maya is a power or ability that Brahman possesses, Brahman is not some lifeless abstract force with maya being a different object existing as separate from that force but Brahman is the omniscient and omnipotent Lord of all, because of Brahman's omnipotence it possess the power of maya which Brahman wields without that inducing any difference or differentiation in Brahman. Concepts like sameness and difference just like good and evil are in reality unreal and meaningless, Brahman is beyond all of them, but through Brahman's power these categories are given seeming existence and it falsely seems to the ignorant that they delimit reality
>And here Damascius obliterates Shankara.
I doubt that

>>15891502
>all moral categories of good, evil, bad etc are unreal

>>15865979
>leaves catholic church because of an autistic esoterist
>but not because said church is a den of satans protecting child rape

>>15891502
>maya is a power or ability that Brahman possesses
So, Brahman is plural?

>>15869813
He says that all religions have some truth in it (i.e God exists) but ONLY Jesus and the Church are the path to salvation

>>15891544
Yes, but it still works out that acts and intentions that people typically deem as evil lead one further from liberation and deeper into more miserable and degraded types of existences, and conversely that acts and intentions which people consider to be good lead one into more auspicious lives and brings one closer to liberation, but in absolute reality these categories are unreal and only seem real to people who have not reached illumination. So if you are a coomer you will just be attracted to more depraved and animalistic rebirths, sometimes being born as literal animals and it will only add to the time it takes to eventually attain liberation.
>>15891733
>is Brahman plural?
That question was already answered by the sentence
>Concepts like sameness and difference (and plurality) just like good and evil are in reality unreal and meaningless, Brahman is beyond all of them

>>15886780
>kant waz more popular n shiet
fuck off, dumb nigger

>>15891801
>Concepts like sameness and difference (and plurality) just like good and evil are in reality unreal and meaningless, Brahman is beyond all of them
This naurally means that he's both plural and beyond plurality; both one and beyond unity; both ineffable and "knowable"; both manifest and unmanifest; both me and yet more than me; nonexistent and the sole existent; all things but yet not all things; One and Many; Limited and Unlimited; the Harmonizer, the multiplier, the unifier; the unproceeding and the proceeding, and he who returns to himself; he is all things but all things are not he; he is not all things but all things are he. He is lost in me, I am found in him.
When one says that the One is all things, this is not the reduction of All into One as if their distinction to each other is destroyed, what is destroyed is their self-distinction to the One is destroyed; but how, you might ask, can the One be each without each being each-other? This is the heart of the mysteries. And there is no knowledge for this, knowing is itself after this. I am the One alone, and you are the One alone, each has the One in totality, and this is what makes us real. But logic protests, all logic's laws howl against this: that One can not be completely two opposites simultaneously, and we say that he is; Both, Each, and None.

>>15865979

The closest to a refutation of Guénon i know of is on the text "Nas garras da esfinge" by the brazilian philosopher Olavo de Carvalho. He was a member of Schuon's tariqa along with Wolfgang Smith.

It's a very long reasoning, so I won't risk to summarize it.

Even so, after reading Guénon and the best traditionalists, the farther one can be from being a Guenonian is being a "soft traditionalist" -- someone who accepts the transcendental unity of religions but that somehow defends a privileged path (It seems like that is Borella's and Smith's position too)

>>15865979
>death to the world
https://sites.google.com/site/phoenixlxineohp2/lettertoareaderofreneguenon

>>15892306
:-(
I wish i never read him

>>15878861
Great comment. Listen to this guy, OP.

>>15865979
Jean Borella, that's how
but you should probably read Edward Feser, Alasdair MacIntyre, St. Thomas, Meister Eckhart and also go back and read the Church Fathers

>>15865979
Just abolish abrahamism, join a Hindu sect and you'll be fine.

>>15893004
That's already what I'm doing.
And these people convinced me to become a Catholic, especially Feser...
But I just can't reconcile Catholicism with the fact that outside mystics seem to reach the beatific vision more effectively.
Until I have resolved this question I cannot have full faith in Catholicism.
See : >>15866223

>>15893123
Yes... I'm going to end up doing this lol

Imagine having faith in any old religion at all given that there is zero way for any of them to even remotely backup their claims when it comes to the soul or life after body etc

Absolutely ridiculous

>>15893369
Imagine believing that
Go study.

>>15893375
Study what you asshat, there is no sufficient evidence to believe in anything tangibly spiritual like life beyond your senses

You can believe in the psychology of spirituality but as a real thing? No. Real life is not dungeons and dragons no matter how much you want it to be.

>>15893384
>there is no sufficient evidence to believe in anything tangibly spiritual like life beyond your senses
Wrong.

>Real life is not dungeons and dragons no matter how much you want it to be.
Cringe. Put away your Fedora.

>>15893398
Oh, wrong, damn you got me.

The only folks wearing fedoras here are those who believe in any "life" or manner of conscious existence outside your senses, that is full blown roleplaying

>>15893384
>there is no sufficient evidence to believe in anything tangibly spiritual
there's no evidence that you're not the sole existent either

>>15893412
The evidence is sufficient in showing that there is no singular existence by any means, you being you is the same as anyone being themselves or anything being anything it is all just action reaction and the universe in motion

Consciousness is not some amazing thing that undoes the laws of physics and chemistry, everything just is, you are as alive as a table in that sense.

>>15893421
thingness is not an objectively provable essence of anything, objectively speaking the evidence says there's only the Quantum Field, of which I am then the sole existent since I can't know anyone else but me is like me, or 'is' at all. Anything claim beyond this (solipsism) is a positive assertion that can't be proven.

>>15866865
it should be considered that those practitioners are outside of the western world
their life is 100% dedication to their spiritual practices
whereas in the western world the average Christian mystic probably still has to work 40 hours a week and support a family

>>15893446
Even you are not you given that you have a conscious and subconscious mind, there are more aspects to what you are beyond your ability to control or understand.

There is no one, everything just is the result of energy in motion and all your thoughts and feelings are just energy in the simplest form, it is like trying to differentiate a drop of water in an ocean

>>15893404
>Oh, wrong, damn you got me
Go STUDY you FUCKIN RETARD.

>>15893384
>Study what you asshat, there is no sufficient evidence to believe in anything tangibly spiritual like life beyond your senses
Non-exhaustive list:
- https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/#CasAgaPhyIQuaCon
- http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/05/mind-body-problem-roundup.html
- http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03/scientism-roundup.html
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness
- http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6GmCyKylTw
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx9gLvLYF5s
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhR77luOETU

>>15893452
Not really

>>15893469
I'm so far basing this on the presuppositions of >>15893384, your senses can't prove anything that matters, for they don't give identity to areas of spacetime; thus without the metaphysical above the senses your senses only sense a flux of smears, we can't even sense the sub atomic ""particles"", so we can't even sense the true distinctions in the world and rather project an sociobiolgically evolved illusionary presentation of color and shape like "table" and "tree" that only have reality to me and not the objective world.

>>15893478
Qualia and consciousness do nothing to validate the idea that you are any more than a meat computer that takes in information and reacts to it without any free will, your ability to think and understand as well as contemplate your existence is no more complex or amazing than a tree swaying in the wind.

But nice roleplaying.

>>15893495
>Qualia and consciousness do nothing to validate the idea that you are any more than a meat computer
Lmao yeah sure

>>15893502
Death and nothingness really is terrifying huh

>>15893522
Go read the links I gave you or go fuck yourself but stop pulling the sleeve of my jacket for a bit of attention kiddo.

>>15893527
Roll for initiative!

>>15893522
identity over time does not objectively exist
thus acccording I don't merely die and what feels like me doesn't just come into being constantly.
Since identity over time regards ANY period of time, I have no time in which I or anything can exist, these words have no meaning no one is writing and no one is reading this.

>>15893555
> I have no time in which I or anything can exist, these words have no meaning no one is writing and no one is reading this.
Imagine having such a foolish philosophy, to the point of denying your most immediate conscious certainty.

>>15893555
Correct, nice trips

>>15893563
Imagine being this dense and afraid

>>15893565
i'm not correct and nor are you wrong, nothing has been conveyed here, nobody has made any claim, because nothing exists

>>15893573
Correct, shame about those trips.

>>15865979
Why do you have to share a worldview with other humans? Isn't God enough?

>>15893555
>identity over time does not objectively exist
We don't have an objective perspective on it.
What if you are a sacred experience(r), only partially connected to by this biochemical apparatus, and are projecting its limits to your whole self?

>>15893578
No, i need a system to access him and a community to be part of. Maslow's hierarchy of needs

>>15893581
identity is a supraphysical concept, as is everything asserted here including the idea of assertion and language and all meaning; so if only the physical exists, supposedly, whatever 'it' 'is'. Since knowledge is also not physical you can't say anything about reality.

>>15893565
Your opinion refutes itself, since according to it you say nothing and your words make no sense. So shut up, and watch me wipe my ass with your philosophy.

>>15893588
>needing a system to access God
Theology perhaps but not God.
>and a community to be part of. Maslow's hierarchy of needs
Human hierarchies are irrelevant sidesteps to the true hierarchy.

>>15893597
You aren't doing anything, no one is, it is simply for the sake of argument.

>>15893600
>Theology perhaps but not God
No, i'mn not talkin about theology. Go read Guénon. I am talking about an effective system of initiation that leads me directly to union with God.

>>15893608
>it is simply for the sake of argument.
How, by whom to whom for whom, retard ?

>i wipe my ass with your post

>>15893593
For sure, the belief in material only becomes a belief in omnipotent matter. However, what I said is not touched by your comment.
We can be supraphysical entities that are localized among physical entities within a strict framework that removes our ability to even perceive ourselves correctly - from here.
Time, space, mass - it all has its effects here, but in the strict meaning we and our experiences have to be fundamental aspects of existence. As such I wouldn't put local limits as the primary signifiers, but merely consequences of (our) interactivity within some Universes.

>>15893613
Kissing guys huh, right on

>>15893608
Oh, but wait, behold; I reject your presuppositions (that don't exist to you) all your logic and reason disproves itself, therefore allowing for the metaphysical, the noetic, to exist.

>>15893629
Except it still doesn't, it is relative only to perception and biases based on nothing concrete

Wake me up when the faithful can demonstrate anything rather than just be scared of dying (or hopeful of it)

>>15893637
on what foundation is X bad to do and Y good to do?

>>15893481
kinda yeah

>>15893639
Intention and objective values

>>15867275
Borella isn't dead.

>>15893495
>what I say is fact because I believe it
>event hough all evidence suggests otherwise
okay

>>15893645
>objective values
>it is relative only to perception and biases based on nothing concrete

>>15893644
No, because I know western practitioners who have the same constraints and managed to reach these states by following these eastern systems.

>>15893654
https://youtu.be/fbeoe2_6qx4

>>15876144
Very cringe and incredibly protpilled.

>>15893637
>>15893608
>>15893565
>>15893522
>>15893495
>>15893384

>>15893345
While the major world religions have access to parts of the Perennial Truth, only Christianity has access to the whole Truth, because Truth is a part of Logos, and Christ is the Logos Incarnate. The mystics of non-Christian religions may experience, to greater or lesser degrees, some part of that Truth, but they cannot, by defintion, experience it in its fullness because they reject it in their rejection of Christ/Christianity. It is simply a misunderstanding of the beatific vision to believe that people can experience it before bodily death. It may thus appear that they reach "enlightenment," however one may understand that, but this corporeal "beatific vision" cannot compare to the fullness of the true beatific vision which can only come after death.

The fact that other religions do in fact have some truth to them is due to the common antediluvian history and origins of all men; the Tradition of Adam simply is Christianity. It was corrupted by the Deluge, but pieces of it remained, and were preserved to greater and lesser degrees by various peoples.

If you were convinced of Christianity, don't let Guenon unconvince you. And if Christianity is just as valid a spiritual path as any other religion, just stay with it. There is no more or less effective way to God.

>>15893674
But anon how do you explain that these paths seem incredibly more effective in leading to union with God? Isn't their mystical effectiveness a sign of credibility?

>>15865979
Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, should we be surprised that demon worship results in something which *appears* to be the same state as our saints? Read Exodus, Egyptian heathen sorcerers had similar powers as God granted to Moses, that does not mean that they were capable of auto-salvation.

>>15893707
Satan cannot mimic an experience of mystical union with God or we can doubt everything and have no reason to believe in the God of the Bible.

>>15893707
Hint: baby torture cultists are evil and on the wrong side of theology.

>>15893664
>intersubjectively experienced existence of objects
Replace "objective" with intersubjective then yes he's right.
also
>William Lane Craig

I'm the skeptics skeptic, I don't believe in certainty beyond the individual experience of insurmountable faith in whatever anyone truly FEEL certain about; none of which are "empirical" or "objective".
I'm also
>>15891324
>>15890725
>>15890630
>>15888920
>>15888586
>>15888138
>>15887736
>>15887751
>>15891733
>>15891544
>>15893671
and most of the posts this >>15893384 retard has responded to

>>15893674
>only Christianity has access to the whole Truth
Yet this isn't even the Christian belief, since at the end of times a New Earth will be created, and we are meant to be studying the Creation...
I have no doubt there are wiser religions out there, among the stars.

>>15893384
>there is no sufficient evidence to believe in anything tangibly spiritual like life beyond your senses
You assume your experience is unique and temporal and limited by localization effect. In truth you are a core truth of existence merely experiencing that particular life from its perspective.
Just as hunger - or any other aspect of reality - does not end at your body, neither do you.

>>15893711
>Replace "objective" with intersubjective then yes he's right.
Irrefutable criticism therefore to put in the trash, we can do this sceptical trick with everything that is considered objective. The statement of objectivity is ALWAYS an intersubjective confirmation, these words mean the same thing.

>also
>William Lane Craig
He's great.

>I'm the skeptics skeptic, I don't believe in certainty beyond the individual experience of insurmountable faith in whatever anyone truly FEEL certain about; none of which are "empirical" or "objective".
Yes, you're just a Fedora man, bravo, you've discovered that you can question everything with radical scepticism. Now leave the thread, here we try to find answers.

>>15893691
What do you mean by "more effective?" And if you accept what I say, then why would traditions which possess an incomplete Truth be the ones which are more "effective," rather than the one which possess the whole of the Truth? What I am saying is that, essentially, while you might be able to access a part of the Absolute Truth by following some non-Christian traditional religion, you won't, by defintion, be able to access the complete Truth, which is the beatific vision. So, in traditions which fail to accept Christ/Logos in His entirety, one will not ultimately recieve that vision in death, which infinitely overflows the glimpses that some may recieve in this life.

If it simply a matter of appearing more mystical/esoteric, in practice or in doctrine, I would suggest reading more about the esoterism of Christianity; Wolfgang Smith's "Chistian Gnosis from Saint Paul to Meister Eckhart" is good. And if you have done that already, then it is up to you and God to decide. I will pray for you friend, that you are fulfilled in whatever you choose.

>>15893737
>What do you mean by "more effective?"
This : >>15866223

>why would traditions which possess an incomplete Truth be the ones which are more "effective," rather than the one which possess the whole of the Truth?
That's precisely the problem: why?

>>15893737
>I will pray for you friend, that you are fulfilled in whatever you choose.
Thank you my friend, my doubt is real. God bless you

>>15866223
Indeed, there haven't been many saints recently. Though one can question the meaning of this; is it a temporary state of affairs, or is it a fundamental change in human spirit? Has Christianity achieved the fruit it came to bear? Has the tree been uprooted?
Or was it folly to begin with?

The mere presence of jews puts it at odds with morality, nature and Divinity.

>>15893759
>The mere presence of jews puts it at odds with morality, nature and Divinity.
Kek

>>15893726
I just told you I'm not that guy you dumb fucking cunt, I literally said I deny skepticism since I deny the presupposition that something has to be "certain" to be believed in, and I even put forth the inter-subjective as the highest judge of "objective" truth, which includes the thousands of accounts of mystic experiences though out 5 thousand years of recorded legend---and their insanely consistent consensus of what that is meant to be like---is to be trusted. The exact same way any homogeneous society functions: TRUST, not "evidence", the only real evidence is experience, before that is trust in others and wise faith (as opposed to blind faith).

>>15893762
They are literal baby and animal torturing savages. Kosher and circumcision are disgusting and completely diabolical.

>>15893768
>I even put forth the inter-subjective as the highest judge of "objective" truth, which includes the thousands of accounts of mystic experiences though out 5 thousand years of recorded legend---and their insanely consistent consensus of what that is meant to be like---is to be trusted.
How to reconcile this with christianity

>>15893783
If it can't be reconciled with christianity then that's all fine and dandy, not my problem.
But I don't see why it shouldn't, all it does is put certainty inside faith and faith above knowledge. The Heart can be deceived and confuse delusion with faith of something true, this is called insanity or foolishness. But the gateway to the One is only achieved through Faith to wait as long as necessary in the Night of hieratic contemplation until he opens the inner sanctum. Then you too will have true certainty.
(This is almost never achieved with drugs. Anything shown by drugs is delusion.)

>>15893783
Psychology and the human minds ability to convince ourselves of anything to make ourselves feel better is impressive

It can not be reconciled with any religion

>>15893858
>(This is almost never achieved with drugs. Anything shown by drugs is delusion.)
How do you explain that some experiences with drugs strongly resemble mystical experiences? Death of the ego, merging with the whole.

>But I don't see why it shouldn't, all it does is put certainty inside faith and faith above knowledge.
If other ways allow union with God at least as effectively, Christianity falls because it is based on the doctrine of the exclusivity of salvation (Jesus is the only way, the most complete way).

>But the gateway to the One is only achieved through Faith

Please explain

>>15893860
does that make you feel better?
how do you know you're just whatever you are because it makes you feel better?
Everything is cope, cope is cope.

>>15893905
the fact of the very idea of the "Death of the ego", this is solely arrived by with drugs, it is a bullshit concept

>>15893913
Nothing in the realm of worrying about my existence makes me feel any better or worse, I do not worry about it much, it is just one of those things that comes and goes in conversation

Life is probably too short to even bother with it unless you are a scholar or your musings matter to your work

>>15893921
There is no sober state, we are always under the effects of different substances, such as food, air...
Drug is merely a concept to make some of them taboo.

>>15893747
My friend, have you read the classics of Christian mysticism, or studied in depth the great mystics of the Christian tradition? If I understand you correctly, you haven't heard of a Christian recieving a glimpse of the beatific vision while alive, but such experiences are there in our tradition. St John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, St Paul, St Teresa of Avila, etc. all wrote of their mystical experiences. I certainly don't think that they had it any harder than Buddhist or Hindu or Sufi sages who might have achiThe desirability of non-Christian religions for Guenon, as I understand it, is the relative accessability of Tradition to man; and while it may be true that in other traditions more men could theoretically have mystical experienceseved some measure of enlightenment as well, for it obviously takes many years of discipline, denial, and dedication regardless of which tradition one is a part of.

If I misunderstood, and you mean that you haven't met a Christian mystic who appears to have achieved some kind of enlightenment, then I would say that this doesn't mean that no such sages exist. It is generally a part of mysticism to discard the world to some degree, so it makes perfect sense that stories of such experiences would remain unheard.

I will keep you in my prayers friend.

Seeing this thread really makes me ready to give up being a Catholic Priest.

>>15893951
> If I understand you correctly, you haven't heard of a Christian recieving a glimpse of the beatific vision while alive, but such experiences are there in our tradition. St John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, St Paul, St Teresa of Avila, etc. all wrote of their mystical experiences.
I am well aware that Christian saints have reached these states. I'm talking about the effectiveness of Christianity in bringing average Christians to these states. I don't know of any practicing Christians who have reached one of these states, although I know of many practicing Buddhists or practicing Hindus who have reached them.

>If I misunderstood, and you mean that you haven't met a Christian mystic who appears to have achieved some kind of enlightenment, then I would say that this doesn't mean that no such sages exist. It is generally a part of mysticism to discard the world to some degree, so it makes perfect sense that stories of such experiences would remain unheard.

Of course there must still be some normal Christians who have reached these states, but everything indicates that there are visibly fewer of them. You're not going to make me believe that in all religions you can see them except in Christianity where they are all hiding, my friend!

Christianity is supposed to be more complete, as you said, so why doesn't it have a clear and definite path to these states? In Hinduism you have raja yoga for example, which is a clear path of 8 well-defined steps where you are told what to do at each step to reach union with God.

>>15894044
>Seeing this thread really makes me ready to give up being a Catholic Priest.
Really? Why?

>>15894053
Because as close a relationship I have to God, it whittles my confidence in our own dogma and history. It feels disingenuous to become a Priest when I can not accept so much of our own doctrine.

>>15894068
You too have the same doctrinal problems as those I'm talking about in this thread? I'd feel bad if you gave up being priest because of me, though, lol.

>>15894050
Well, for a Christian, as I'm sure you know, the definition of a saint is just those who received the beatific vision, or rather, those who received the beatific vision just are the Saints, because said vision is only available in its fullness to those in Heaven.

The mystical experiences sages have on Earth are but glimpses of an infinitely more beautiful vision after death. This is available only to Christians, i.e. those who accept the Truth, the Logos Incarnate. An average, faithful Catholic, one who goes to Heaven, will receive this vision in its fullness, which will not be bestowed on non-Christians, barring of course an act of extreme mercy by God, something which is certainly not guaranteed but only hoped for. The path of the soul is not limited to this life, but continues after death; thus, where a Christian will receive his reward is in death, upon a true and complete union with God. It is not true union with God that non-Christian sages achieve, but a partial encounter with Him. They are in far more precarious a position than the average non-mystic Christian, when the journey of the Soul to God is considered in its fullness, necessarily including in death and beyond.

Further, the average practitioner of any other religion is not going to have mystical experiences, which is noted by Guenon; it is only for those who are initiated, which will always be but a select few. The visible "elect" of Christian mystics are monks and priests, and they are generally cloistered in monasteries, unconcerned with the world, and thus word of their experiences leaves slowly if at all. But, the average Christian is not totally locked off from receiving a glimpse of God; look at the great number of lay Saints. They were but normal people who were bestowed by God with mystical grace and wisdom. The path to such experiences is simply living one's Faith with one's full breath. I am unaware of any other of the world's major religions where a purely exoteric practitioner can and has received such experiences (perhaps this is my ignorance).

God bless you.

>>15888427
The masses do not truly desire enlightenment, nor would they want it. Let the elites take it