/lit/ - Literature

>>15817505

Where's orthodox?

>>15817505
>33 AD
More like 1054 AD

>>15817505
>catholic
>33ad
He doesn't know

>>15817580
It’s worse. The Orthodox came in the early 300s, Catholicism later still.

>>15817505
No one who understands reformed theology calls it shaky. You're trolling. People who become Catholic deserve the suffering it entails. Good luck having double talk modernism shoved down your throat while being called orthodoxy. People are leaving Catholicism at a higher rate than any other religion for a reason.

Big brain reformed here. Never fall for the Catholic meme. I used to be one. It was awful.

>>15817894
Ok, explain your pathology then.

>>15817505
Why would you convert to a church that's only 33 years old?

>>15817948
blessed response

>>15817580
>>15817857
so i should become a Juden?

>>15817964
No. An animist or divine mother worshiper

>>15817976
i would worship you desoo
i dont understand why youre so cruel to me :(

>>15818162
You keep the name of an asshole.
You all seem to worship the confusion of it, so don’t go crying to me over it.
Have a nice day.

>>15817505
What are these trading cards and why is our Lord's the weakest?

>>15818872
Shedup ya mormon

>>15818321
I'm genuinely confused. Keep the name of what?
Buttercunt is a nickname of endearment. Would you prefer butterkant?
Or is this a Jesus thing? I'm not Christian though.
I know it's difficult to tell when it's a shitpost and when its not but I genuinely do want to understand you. You're an anomaly. I need to know.

>>15818922
Anonymous. I can’t tell you from any of the others. No need to worship. Apologies for whatever cruelty I may have leveled at you. A misfire misunderstanding maybe, I donno.
I’d prefer auntie.

>>15817976
>>15818321
>>15818885
>>15818965
Where do you get your money, !!oI3er5KKetj? I see you here more often than the other Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ larpers. So, how do you have so much free time?

>>15818985
I am partially furloughed. Not getting enough reading in between, I know, but reading and browsing on the same device

>>15818965
You didn't actually hurt my feelings. It's Four Chinnel. You got have some thick skin to be a regular here. No need to apologize.
Auntie is a boring name. And gives my desire to pound your dilating boi pussy and incestuous vibe. No thanks.
>i still luv u tho

>>15817894
*loses churchgoers even faster than Catholics* nothin personnel, TULIP

>>15817505
The Roman Catholic church was founded by Pope Paul III in 1545.

>>15817580
The contemporary Judaism referred to is pre-Talmud Judaism

>>15817505
2020. still stupid christcuck.

>>15817505
>shaky theology
Catholic church literally uses the absurd and refuted Aristotelian ontology of accidents and substance to defend transubstantiation. Reformed/Calvinists might have a lot of wacky opinions but nothing as outrageously dumb as that.

>>15819032
If you're talking about any mainline protestant church, sure but who is talking about that? Evangelical/confessional Presbyterian churches are actually one of the major growing denominations currently as of 2020. PCA, OPC, EPC, and ECO are all evangelical Presbyterians and every one has been gaining members since their inception, including in the 70s when churches were hit the hardest.

>>15819969
Reformed theology of the sacraments is literally just going by what the Bible explicitly says. Catholics act like "sign and seal" is denying Christ's body, but those terms are lifted directly from the Bible to describe sacraments. So you can jump through pagan philosophical hoops about magical efficacy, or you can be Reformed and call sacraments what the Bible calls them: signs and seals of grace.

>>15817857
>>15817580
Both the Orthodox and Catholic rites date to the same apostolic tradition dating well before the 300s- at the absolute latest, it was recognizable by the second century (more likely, with the first councils described in Acts which present a clear separation from Judaism). The distinctions between the two were based on later issues of authority.
>>15820030
>This is My Body; This is My Blood
>Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you have no life within you.
>Do this in memory of Me
This is very clearly literal in the bible. The philosophical hoops are just basic justification of the sacrament still appearing as bread and not being in violation of His words. They're also not necessarily dogmatic- just the True Presence of Christ in the sacrament.

>>15817505
Damn, the Catholic church is only 33 years old? I think I'll go with the based Morman (sic) church which has been around since 191 A.D.

>>15820530
But the Reformed teaching is that, when received in faith, the sacrament is "truly, yet spiritually" the body and blood of Christ. The difference is about sacramental efficacy again. Reformed do not deny that the sacrament is the body and blood, only that people who take it without believing are not consuming Christ's body, and that it is not Christ's body independent of the faith of the recipient.

There is another interesting argument from the Reformed side, namely that it is Christ's spiritual body and not his human body because to suggest that his human body can be in infinite places at once denies his humanity. In this sense, it is obviously Christ's spiritual body and not his human physical body because human bodies can't do that. Christ's divine nature certainly can, however.

>>15817505
Catholicism has a wealth of knowledge and plenty of philosophical and scientific achievements to date. It's not perfect, and admits it never will be, but there's a lot contained within. I hope you give it an honest chance as it's definitely the church for me.

>>15820612
>body because human bodies can't do that
Denying God His omnipotence. Good one, protcuck.

>>15817505
you can convert back and forth anytime, as many times as you wish, so why bother people with stupid questions.

>>15817505
You're on the right tracks. Reformed theology is nonsense.
Read the Church Fathers. Also become Orthodox.

>>15817948
Ignore butterfly, she's retarded and clearly believes le Constantine made the Bibble and Xtianity memes.

>>15817505
>no Orthodox
>ignoring that non-Catholic sects mostly believe themselves to be that original church

>>15817505
>catholic
>33

Why do Catholics even insist on this? Everything but its purported origin is already Christophobic, it would be more Catholic to simply, and proudly, admit that they are totally Pharisaic.

>>15817580
Rabbinic Judaism=\= Hellenistic Judaism

>>15817505
You will receive a lot of stupid answers in this thread so I will be serious.

If religion is really important for you study both theology and the church history. Learn about Catholic traditoin, read the encyclicals and maybe go talk with a priest about your doubts.
Reflect on what you think is right and have a sincere conversation with yourself where you ponder the differences in theology, history and tradition of the different churches.
I am sure you will be welcomed with open arms wherever you feel is right for you.

>>15817505
If you're looking for the mythical "original church", Catholicism isn't the only legitimate claimant. The real argument is between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and once you study it, it will be come quite apparent to you that the Catholicism of today consists of novelties (both in practice and doctrine) that did not exist in the ancient church.

>>15821474
>denying Christ his humanity
Uh oh stinky

Reformed theology is the only theology that I've ever thought was coherent. Christianity doesn't make any sense if people have free will.

Messianic Judaism is the true Christianity

>>15820530
You don't take those statements as literally as you think you do.
>Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you have no life within you.
Ergo someone who does not consume the sacrament is damned.
>B-but we believe that baptism uhhh!!!
Nope. Why don't you believe what Christ said?

>>15820530
>>Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you have no life within you.
Reminder that Catholics only eat the bread when they partake. The wine is drunk only by the priest. Of course they have some Pharisaical bullshit about why this is sufficient and not in direct violation of Christ's command.

>>15822150
Plus it literally says this in the bible. Calvin didn't pull election and predestination out of thin air.

>For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

>For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

>All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

>Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

>For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

And I could keep going too. But Catholics scratch their head and ask how Calvin could come up with a theology so cruel???? It's because it's literally what the bible teaches, full stop. And it makes the most obvious sense of God is sovereign and all knowing. So thats where it comes from...

>>15822367
How dare you quote the bible at me! Proof texting! Proof texting! This contradicts what the pope pbuh said so you're just proof texting!!!!

>>15822367
If everything is predestined, there is no way to resolve the problem of evil. You are left with an evil God that sends people through life just to spite them and send them to hell.
I don't understand why anyone would believe in this. This is slave morality to the extreme. Nothing I ever do will mean anything and my life is just a plaything, possibly to be sent to hell just for God's fun.

>>15822367
I don't think you even have to look at scripture to prove it (though that's helpful of course). If God is omniscient, if he knows all things, then that means that before he created the world he knew who in that world would be saved, and he created that world. There was never going to be any other outcome. Of course Reformed theology does not look at it in this passive way, but I think on a simple logical level it shows that free will is nonsense.

>>15822453
See, the only thing you can resort to is this emotional shit. Look at the rhetorical language you're using -- it's not meant to be seriously argued against, it's just there to try and make someone feel that it's bad. No scripture, nothing like that, I just don't like it! So there.

>>15817505
The catholic church isnt that old, and notice how they conveniently left out the second oldest church to make themselves look better, wheres orthodox? What i mean by not that okd is that they dont really adhere to the beliefs of the early church fathers at all, or even the middle ones like augustine and aquinas

>>15822453
Humans were created to glorify God. All things exist for God's glory. God is the foremost thing, not you, and God is glorified in his punishment of those who rebel against him.

>>15822458
I am not talking about scripture. Where did I say I was.
I am saying you have to be deluded to believe in this. Philosophy is just an expression of personal will and your will is a will of weakness, of the slave who has nothing to live for and thus resigns even his will into nothing. You have a religion of nihilism.

>>15817505

>>15822463
Catholic and Orthodox were the same until the schism you realize. Both Churches call themselves catholic

>>15822470
>I am not talking about scripture.
Of course you aren't, because Calvinism is taught by Scripture. You can't disprove it from the Bible so you have to resort to something else.
>I am saying you have to be deluded to believe in this. Philosophy is just an expression of personal will and your will is a will of weakness, of the slave who has nothing to live for and thus resigns even his will into nothing. You have a religion of nihilism.
Okay. Let me know when you want to have a theological discussion.

>>15822479
You can prove anything with the Bible. Anyone can cherrypick Bible verses to prove anything.
I don't see how copy pasting 5 bible verses is supposed to be impressive.

You are coping. You know you are worthless in life so you believe in a religion in which your actions are also worthless. It is not even the religion of the slave. It is the religion of the animal or the savage. You pick the verses you like since it complies to your savage nature. Just like the savages couldn't control nature and so they said it was just up to chance, so do you do with phenomena and morality.
Pitiful

>>15822478
You fucking moron, you absolute fucking moron. So if they are the same, just different in name now, because the orthodox schismsed, then why isnt lutheranism also just as old, because it schismsed away from the Le Trve cathocuck church because it thought it was the correct doctrine.
>both churches call themselves catholic
All churches think they have the inly true doctrine and teachings, thats why theyre different churches.

>>15822494
OK retard. It's "cherry picking" lol. Here are 100 quotes from the Bible explicitly defending election and predestination: https://www.openbible.info/topics/election_and_predestination

Romans 8:29 ESV / 40 helpful votes
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV / 37 helpful votes
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 36 helpful votes
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

John 6:37 ESV / 32 helpful votes
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV / 30 helpful votes
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

2 Timothy 1:9 ESV / 26 helpful votes
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV / 23 helpful votes
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Luke 10:22 ESV / 21 helpful votes
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Romans 8:28-29 ESV / 20 helpful votes
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

1 Peter 1:2 ESV / 19 helpful votes
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

>>15822498
Notice how you don't respond to my point. You are a slave believing in a slave doctrine.

>>15822498
2 Timothy 2:10 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 9:15-18 ESV / 19 helpful votes
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Romans 8:30 ESV / 19 helpful votes
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 11:7 ESV / 18 helpful votes
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Acts 13:48 ESV / 18 helpful votes
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 9:18 ESV / 17 helpful votes
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

John 6:44 ESV / 16 helpful votes
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

2 Peter 3:9 ESV / 14 helpful votes
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Peter 1:20 ESV / 14 helpful votes
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

James 1:18 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Romans 1:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

John 15:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

>>15822494
>You can prove anything with the Bible. Anyone can cherrypick Bible verses to prove anything.
If you don't believe that the Bible is the revelation of God to man and that it is comprehensible by man, who can read it and understand God's will, then I have no reason to be speaking to you about this subject. This is an intra-Christian dispute, and if you are not a Christian what you think about it is meaningless to me.
>>15822503
You're talking to two different people, moron.

>>15822503
>Catholic says the Bible doesn't count, only his feels
You're not helping your case

Revelation 13:8 ESV / 12 helpful votes
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Titus 1:1 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

Ephesians 1:11 ESV / 12 helpful votes
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Romans 11:5 ESV / 12 helpful votes
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Romans 9:21 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

John 5:40 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 3:16 ESV / 12 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 Peter 1:15 ESV / 11 helpful votes
But as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,

Philippians 1:6 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV / 11 helpful votes
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:28 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

John 6:37-45 ESV / 11 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” ...

>>15822510
Matthew 11:25-27 ESV / 11 helpful votes
At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Galatians 1:1-24 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. ...

Acts 11:18 ESV / 10 helpful votes
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Proverbs 21:1 ESV / 10 helpful votes
The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.

Ephesians 2:3 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Ephesians 2:1 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 9 helpful votes
He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

1 Corinthians 12:3 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:5 ESV / 9 helpful votes
What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.

Acts 18:27 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,

John 3:3-5 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:3 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 22:14 ESV / 9 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For many are called, but few are chosen.”

How delusional do you have to be to think that copy and pasting Bible verses on /lit/ is going to convert people. lmao

>>15822516
I can keep going, but this is sufficient for now. The Bible is filled with reference to the doctrine of election and predestination.

Isaiah 55:11 ESV / 9 helpful votes
So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Psalm 110:2 ESV / 9 helpful votes
The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your enemies!

Psalm 65:4 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!

Revelation 5:9 ESV / 8 helpful votes
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

1 John 5:19 ESV / 8 helpful votes
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

1 John 2:2 ESV / 8 helpful votes
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 ESV / 8 helpful votes
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

John 5:24 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 3:6 ESV / 8 helpful votes
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Luke 14:23 ESV / 8 helpful votes
And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled.

Matthew 8:2 ESV / 8 helpful votes
And behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.”

2 Peter 1:10 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 Peter 2:1 ESV / 6 helpful votes
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Timothy 1:7 ESV / 6 helpful votes
For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 ESV / 6 helpful votes
To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

>>15822521
I didn't say I was converting anyone. I said that the doctrine of election and predestination is not cherry picking. It is so prevalent in the Bible that I could quote verses all day defending it. Cherry picking would be finding a verse that DIDN'T support it.

>>15822529
Where did I ever say I am debating the Bible.

>>15822522
You're wasting your time, anon. The guy you're talking to isn't even a Christian. This isn't an argument to be having with unbelievers.

>>15822219
They're both fully Christ's Real Presence. You take one, you have Christ's presence in you. Plus, in NO, you can also take the Precious blood along with the Body of Christ.

>>15822535
Then I don't care what you think or feel

>>15822538
Blah blah blah. Christ says "this is X" and "this is Y", he's referring to two separate objects and telling you to consume both. You are a literal pharisee.

>>15822538
>They're both fully Christ's Real Presence.
Quote me the bible verse that says this.

>>15822545
go to a catholic mass. you drink the wine at novus ordo services I know for sure.

>>15822545
Whatever retard. I can't force someone whose heart is so hardened to the truth to listen to it. I just hope God finds you and softens it.

>>15822549
Is your blood more "you" than your flesh or vice versa or are they both fully you? It's literally that simple.

>>15822556
So what? Your theology states that only bread is permissible and that was the normative practice for centuries.

>>15822559
>Is your blood more "you" than your flesh or vice versa or are they both fully you? It's literally that simple.
You've abstracted this into something philosphical. Christ says to eat the flesh and drink the blood. He says the bread is the flesh and the wine is the blood. He doesn't tell you to consume a philosophical abstraction known as the "Real Presence." He tells specifically what to eat and drink.

>>15819737
>all Jews follow the Talmud
>what are Karaites

>>15822575
so what? You said Catholics don't drink wine. That's wrong. I am responding to that claim, which is incorrect. I am excited to see what you think Catholic theology is if you are so misinformed about liturgical practices.

>>15822593
Holy shit lol. So if the church forbids wine to laity or only gives them bread for centuries, it's fine now because we give them wine sometimes. You're a fucking idiot.

>>15822593
To this day you don't HAVE to drink the wine, so the theology didn't change. Optional wine is still wrong

>>15822579
Karaites aren't really relevant in larger Judaism, and haven't been for a long time. They are also hardly successors of the early Jewish Christians.

>>15822603
Uh oh you btfo him now he can't Talmud around further

>>15822603
It's funny isn't it? "This is my body/blood" means it is LITERALLY HIS FUCKING BLOOD!!!!! but when he says to eat and drink both then
>Oh, uh... no, we don't do that. You see, we decided that philosophically it makes no sense that each species contains one specific aspect of the real prescen--- oh the real presence? That's a philosophical construct we created to.......

>>15822578
>You've abstracted this into something philosphical.
What's wrong with that? If God is Truth and Wisdom, then that means on some level you can reach some truths of faith (not all but some) via reason. Even the Church Fathers and Thomas Aquinas knew this. Faith without reason is just as much of an abomination as reason without faith. That's literally a heresy that was proposed by Averroes (an Islamic philosopher of all people) where faith and reason are separate and the truths reaches by one contradict the truths of another. It's more amenable to Gnosticism than Christianity, where we believe in one Truth in Jesus Christ. Plus, the Bible isn't a document without some historical and philosophical/theological context. It was literally canonized with the belief that it supported Sacred Tradition and the beliefs of the Magisterium in 350 AD.

>>15822619
Kek

>>15822619
why do you think that typing in capital letters with vulgarities makes your point stronger. I am not the person you are talking. I am just looking through this thread and find it weird that "Christians" talk in such a way

>>15822617
Irrelevant. Christians think they can pull this shit where Judaism = Talmud and it always has. It’s a lie

>>15822631
I'm not making a point, I'm mocking them. Go cry in one of the Catholic threads next when they start masturbating about burning heretics at the stake.

>>15822628
What is the context of body and blood that changed.

>>15822639
> they're bad so I can be bad
Not very Christian of you.

>>15822631
This is a classic Catholic Answers shill post tactic. Go back.

>>15822628
Because you're being selective about it. You refuse at all to apply the same sort of thought to Christ's body/blood declaration and insist on complete wooden literalness, even when it leads you believe that there are massive amounts of Jesus flesh floating around every Sunday being eaten all over the world.

>>15822635
Yes, it is one of the prime forms of Christian cope, but it doesn't change the fact that for the better part of the last 15 centuries Judaism has been mostly talmudic, and so when we talk about early Judaism we should mind that it had a different form.
I'm not sure it changes as much as Christians like to pretend it does either.

>>15822647
Noted, thanks for your concern.

>>15822652
I am not affiliated with Catholic answers or any Catholic website. You are delusional. Take your meds. I just entered this thread and find it funny that so called Christians think that calling other people retard makes their point strongers.

lul

>>15822667
Very interesting. Thanks for telling us.

>Big brain reformed here. Never fall for the Catholic meme. I used to be one. It was awful.

>>15822643
Nothing. You are trying to pretend that you need both species to get the Real Presence of Christ, when it's always been held that they are both equally the Real Presence of Christ and I gave you a good example illustrating why.

>>15822654
>even when it leads you believe that there are massive amounts of Jesus flesh floating around every Sunday being eaten all over the world.

But that is exactly what is happening. You're just complaining because I don't give a more fideistic interpretation of the Real presence.

>>15822671
Sure no problem.

>>15822679
*equally and fully the Real Presence of Christ

>>15822679
Again, Christ does not say to consume the "Real Presence." He says to consume the *flesh* and *blood*. You're talking about something different than he is.
>You're just complaining because I don't give a more fideistic interpretation of the Real presence.
I'm complaining because you're inconsistent and you demand that I interpret this text as literally as possible, but only to the point that it agrees with Catholicism -- at that point I have to stop and turn it into an abstract philosophical issue.

>>15822694
>Again, Christ does not say to consume the "Real Presence." He says to consume the *flesh* and *blood*.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the_Eucharist
Literally the first sentence:
>The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a term used in Christian theology to express the doctrine that Jesus is really or substantially present in the Eucharist, not merely symbolically or metaphorically.

So when you consume the Eucharist, you are consuming Christ's flesh since the Eucharist is Christ Himself. Not that hard to understand. Even a lot of Protestant groups like Methodists and Anglicans understand this but you don't.

>>15822720
I understand what you are referring to when you use the term Real Presence. I am saying that this term is a theological construct that is not present in the text. The text refers to "flesh" and "blood." You are doing anything but interpreting this text at its face value.

>>15822720
But the bread doesn’t turn into literal human flesh anon

>>15822724
Yeah, and?

>>15822724
>I am saying that this term is a theological construct that is not present in the text.
It's just a fancy term to describe a spiritual reality described in the text. It's not any sort of theological construct seeing that if you actually read the text, that is literally what it says not only in English, but in the Greek and the Vulgate Latin.

> You are doing anything but interpreting this text at its face value.
I think that applies more to you than to me seeing that you have trouble understanding a concept that's been part of Church since its conception.

>>15822743
Eucharistic miracles are thing.

>>15822748
Since you understand, feel free to no use arguments such as this ever again: >>15820530, and let your fellow Catholics know as well. Thanks.

>>15822759
>It's just a fancy term to describe a spiritual reality described in the text.
If you aren't willing to admit that this is an extratextual concept, then we're at an impasse.

>>15822720
What a deranged cannibal cult. I guess we know where Jesus’ corpose went

>>15822775
The term is extratextual, but the actual concept is very much in the text. That's what I'm saying. Again, it's not hard to understand if you read a decent translation of the Bible and if you look at how the people in the Early Church thought of it (along with how the people who opposed the Early Church thought of it tbqh. The Bible). So Yeah, I guess we are at an impasse.

>>15822790
>I guess we know where Jesus’ corpose went
D O J A A N ~

>>15817505
>converting to a religion full of strawman theologies
go to the original and read the tanakh.

>>15822802
*The Bible is every bit as much a historical document as it is the Word of God.

>>15822802
Yes, yes, I've read the Bible and I've studied the historical issue and the church fathers, and I don't agree with you at all. I think this is just a common apologetics line that Catholics spread and take for granted. I don't think there's any sort of singular doctrinal unity among the early church like you are implying.

>>15822818
To clarify, I'm not claiming there was not a (broadly understood) thing that could be understood as orthodoxy. But I don't think the modern specifics of theology are in any way demonstrable as being ubiquitous or even present at all. It's a common mistake to read an ancient statement, and to read into it some modern concept, when the ancient himself had no idea of such a thing and meant something else entirely.

>>15822802
The Didache doesn't support the Catholic position and that's the oldest text we have

How do sola scriptura people justify the trinity. There really aren't any clear verses about it.

Lots of vague references like in Genesis were it talks about God as "we" but never some pure statement that God is a trinity.

>>15822850
Preponderance of evidence. We don't also don't tend to get as far into the weeds about the specifics of certain issues.

>>15821519
Isn't orthodoxy satanic and all? There was a video on Youtube.

>>15822894
The most problematic aspect of Orthodoxy, besides its sacramental theology, is its disposition to phyletism, or the confusion of the church which a specific nation or people.

>>15822893
Why wouldn't you "get into the weeds" on the trinity. It is the essence of God we are talking about. I can't think of much that is more important theologically.

And to note, I am not trying to come at you, I am legitimately interested on this. Since both Catholics and Protestants usually agree on the Trinity at a broad level and I've always wondered why considering it is for completely different reasons.

>>15822894
what video

>>15822467
It appears that the world is as meaningless as before if you convert to Christianity with this perspective.

>>15822914
This one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d07mgLoOW8g

>>15822837
There's literally a Eucharistic prayer before the breaking of the bread and only allowing the faithful among those that can partake of the Eucharist which are clearly the prayers after Consecration and before Communion. There might not be an explicit reference to the Real Presence of Christ in it but at the same time, there's a lot of other details lacking from the Didache. It really doesn't describe the Sacrament of Baptism in great detail either nor how to pray, fast, etc and it's relatively short. It's probably a companion to the Tradition rather than a detailed account of it.

>>15822918
Cool, let me know when you want to talk about theology and not your feelings.

>>15822914
I mean on a practical level I suppose. The age of the trinitarian disputes is over, you know? We all (mostly) agree about it, so just it doesn't seem to be as much of a pressing issue as other things. Occasionally you'll get Catholics saying that Calvinists are Nestorians or something, but that's about it. Obviously in our churches the doctrine is taught and if you study systematic theology you'll find it addressed in full.

>>15822926
>>15822894
>vaticancatholic

Orthodoxy has a lot of problems in terms of theology and what not (including phyletism, allowing for divorce which Christ explicitly taught against, allowing contraception and Palamism (which is just repackaged NeoPlatomism made to sound Christian)) but it isn't satanic. Plus, these guys are sedes, so take everything they say with a grain of salt.

>>15822957
Also -- and this is just my personal thoughts -- I think that spending too much time on trinitarian speculation tends to cause a sort of mystical overemphasis in theology. Reformed theology is experiential, but it isn't mystical, if that makes sense.

>>15817505
Lutheran Boy coming through, make way cathocucks, I don't even pay the church, what are you gonna do? I'll read the bible when i want.

>>15822977
No you can't do that!!! Stop it!!! Stop reading the Bible!!! You can't understand it!!! Only we can understand it and you have to listen to us!!! Stop it NOOOOOO!!!!

>>15822969
Oh I see. Thanks for information.

>>15822972
>>15822957
Yeah but I thought you said that it is Biblical. You didn't say where you found it in the Bible.

>>15817505

>>15822984

>>15822894
I've been away ever since this was posted.
No, Orthodoxy is not Satanic. That's one of those Reformed Prot things they say because they're retarded and have no understanding of the religion, even their own denomination. They can quote, but not understand, because they have no foundational backing. Pick a church that has at least some succession from the apostles.

There are problems with Orthodoxy that you will find in many different religions - that is, people often become tribal about it and see it as part of their group. This is a nuisance, but it happens with any religion where people are generally homogeneous. You'll still be welcomed, but you may end up also picking up a new language. It will be worth it. The Orthodox church is one of the most popular with men.

>>15823187
>Pick a church that has at least some succession from the apostles.
The Reformers had apostolic succession through the Catholic Church.

>>15823218
"Priesthood of all believers" and so on destroy it IMO, though - as does dropping tradition and not focusing on the early church. Many just go with "Bible alone", which is why they end up Zionist Jew-lovers, because they haven't been able to understand that the Church *is* Israel.

>>15823255
Because there is no ecclesiastical office of "priest." The singular sacrifice has already been made and there are no others, thus there is no priest to reenact it. I am Reformed and am not defending all Protestantism. We do not "drop tradition" but ensure that we do not follow traditions that are corrupt.

>>15822199
>someone who does not consume the sacrament is damned
Yes
Technically there are exceptions based around will to receive Christ, based on a couple statements in the letters, about the good thief, the centurion, etc, but these are understood as extraordinary situations (out of the ordinary, not necessarily rare).
>changing the subject to baptism
Yes, we can acknowledge that baptism conveys grace even alongside the necessity of the Eucharist for the fulfillment of salvation. Even the baptized must desire the Body and Blood of Christ, knowingly or by state of mind, to be saved.
>>15820612
He doesn't carve out exceptions based on whether we believe it, though. He is very clear that "This is My Body". 1 Cor 10-11 is the same. It is unambiguous that taking the communion unworthily is sinning, and against the Body and Blood of Christ.
>>15822219
>>15822545
This is only Novus Ordo laziness (a permitted shortening of the rite, but NO proper includes distributing both), but if Christ is present in one he's in it fully. Parts of one statement can be more metaphorical than another. Yes, we celebrate both at every Mass, but Christ's Presence in it cannot be divided in each part. We must consume Him. You get literal over the oddest parts of a command while refusing the spirit of it.
>>15822497
The Great Schism was a geographic divide of the existing hierarchy over significant political and minor doctrinal issues. The Lutherans abandoned that hierarchy and conventional teaching entirely. Very different kind of split.

>>15822453
Shut up with the Nietzsche shit, make an actual argument other than slave morality. We are made in the image of God and share in His power of Creation, therefore we have the ability to shape our own decisions in the world.

>>15822367
>>15822498
>>15822505
>>15822510
>>15822516
>>15822522
None of those verses exclusively point to predestination, rather than the idea that we all are created to follow and love Christ and do so only through God's gifts to us.
>And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed
This one is somewhat close, but really doesn't seem to demonstrate a lack of free will in them.
>So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
This is poetic language akin to what is used in the psalms, but does not literally remove the compatibility of free will from the text.
>And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain
Here's the actually close one. It's still very poetic language though, and given God's transcendence of time does not seem more persuasive than the abundance of evidence of free will in the bible.
>Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Again, this is obviously a parable that does not refer to predestination to one or the other but God's use of those who do ill.
>Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life
Doesn't this work more as an example against predestination than for it?

>>15823274
No ecclestical office of priest, no real priest. It's like women priests, you're just larping to me.

>>15823218
If you drop Tradition and Church Teaching, then you don't have Apostolic Succession. End of. That's like saying various Gnostic sects have Apostolic Succession through the Catholic Church and hence their teachings are valid.

>>15823255
>Because there is no ecclesiastical office of "priest." The singular sacrifice has already been made and there are no others, thus there is no priest to reenact it.

The priesthood of the order of Melchizedek is literally described in the Bible in Hebrews 5:6 (and a good deal of the rest of Hebrews as well). Plus, Christ didn't come to get rid of the orders and rituals of the Old Covenant, but to formally fulfill them. So yeah, there is the office of the priesthood, created and headed by Christ the High Priest. Plus, there's the Sacrifice of the Mass (which happens all the time), which is officiated and led by Christ, through Christ with Him as the sacrificial victim.

>We do not "drop tradition" but ensure that we do not follow traditions that are corrupt.
Except traditions cannot be corrupted since it ultimately comes from Christ Himself. The people inside the Church can and often times do as they did before the Reformation, but that's just the moral failings of many men, not an actual failing of Tradition.

Who cares, they're all fake anyway. At least belive in something rad like Zeus or something

Lutheranism seems like the least flawed christianity. All "Orthodoxy" have problems.

>>15821735
>Hellenistic Judaism

>>15818885
dilate

>>15822556
It's not wine anymore, it's the Blood of Christ.

>>15822940
Yes and it calls the sacrament bread. The whole way through. Weird huh.

>>15823331
>everything I disagree with is poetic!
Based retard Catholic Answers shills

>>15824960
This. I can't believe he's calling Paul's epistles poetic. There is no basis for claiming the writing of an apostle to a church telling them what to do is poetic lmao

Protestantism - Founded by God at the beginning of time.

Orthodox church - Founded by Jesus in AD 30

Catholic church - Founded by Satan in 1054 AD

>>15825562
> inspired scripture isn't poetic
Either you aren't Christian or you are a retard with no understanding of what it means to be poetic

>>15826184
Pauls writing cannot in anyway be construed as poetic in any sense. Plenty of literature in the bible can. I dare you to find me a single source anywhere that considers Paul as such.

Your ass isn't a source

>>15826195
The verse most indicative of prefiguration was from revelations. If you don't take that as poetic, I honestly don't know what to say.
"God hardens whoever He wills". The phrase being poetic language doesn't mean the entire letter is. It's not. But that you're saying this means no turn of phrase in it can be anything but literal is farcical.
"Has the potter no right over the clay..." is obviously a parable aimed at another message, taking it to imply predestination is a stretch at best.
So Paul used a poetic turn of phrase, and a parable. And Revelations is poetic as a whole. Is this really a stretch?

Are there any of the other verses you felt were more direct evidence of rpedestination? I responded in detail to the ones that seemed the strongest arguments, but I'm not writing a full answer to the scores of individual verses you copy-pasted in.

>>15824926
The Eucharist is a literally a Sacrament in the Catholic Church so I don't know how that supports your position at all.

>>15823324
Wow he knows nothing about the great schism. Go read a fucking book loser.

>>15826195
You realize that translating from greek to english tarnishes a lot of the poetic beauty right? Like there is a lot more natural rhyming in the og greek, and the literal canon he would be referencing was also greek, learn greek retard

>>15817505
>Catholic
>33
Sorry sir but your church was founded in 1054, and it split off some church itself founded in the 4th century.

>>15817505
Try Anglicanism first Anon. I know most likely that you are a Yank and therefore an Anglophobe but you could get a lot out of it.

>>15822667
It's discouraging. I wish all the Christians in these threads would check themselves.

Where is Orthodox, Coptic, Presbyterian? Also, Anglican is a really weird thing as it is essentially Catholicism and was meant to be a middle road between Calvinism and Lutheran.