/lit/ - Literature

>>15813288
why do so many christians seem to enjoy the idea of other people being tortured for eternity?

>>15813299
on the contrary. it is sad so many fall for the self-divinization that can only lead to hell

>>15813288
what do you want here? money? sex? meds?

>>15813308
Prove it.

>>15813485
identification of atman with God is blasphemous. God has proved he is personal in the scriptures throughout history

>>15813510
You obviously haven't actually studied Neoplatonism or Advaita I'd you actually believe that strawman

also you don't need to resort to the scriptures to realize God is personal once you accept personality is a human quality (the highest, in fact)

But we Platonists invented the hell you believe in, even the idea of eternal hell, of course that's a mistranslation, but regardless.
>Micah 7.
I wonder if all the church fathers and councils who talked of eternal damnation even fully read the words they worshipped.
Eternal tartarus is impossible for many reasons, one being that tartarus and the while sphere is reset at every Aeon, which I'd postulate is at most the duration of a universal year.
Then 'punishment' that lasts forever is pretty dumb, since punishment is supposed to teach something.

>>15813514
what are you saying? that plotinus and shankara did not taught nous/atman was monad/brahman?

>>15813521
God is immutable
after you die you cannot undo your actions
judgement is facing God's Perfect immutable Holiness and realizing you failed at being holy

>>15813510
How did God prove that and how did he prove that he is only the God of Abraham?
>inb4 bible or similar books
Those are stories of fiction.

the idea of God changing his mind on the judgement is more absurd than eternal damnation

>>15813545
see >>15813516
if we, mere creatures, have personality how could God not have it too on an infinite and perfect level? if he did not have personality he would not be God

>>15813468

Bane?

>>15813288
>>15813521
God Will Forgive Israel
14 Shepherd Your people with Your staff,
The flock of Your heritage,
Who dwell solitarily in a woodland,
In the midst of Carmel;
Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead,
As in days of old.

15 “As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt,
I will show them wonders.”

16 The nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might;
They shall put their hand over their mouth;
Their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent;
They shall crawl from their holes like snakes of the earth.
They shall be afraid of the Lord our God,
And shall fear because of You.
18 Who is a God like You,
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in mercy.
19 He will again have compassion on us,
And will subdue our iniquities.

You will cast all our sins
Into the depths of the sea.

According to the more based church fathers, the fires of gehenna is identical to God's grace. It is your disposition towards God before that determines how the light/fire will feel. Your own hatred burning away opening up your heart to guilt and shame for all your sins. The sins you wore as clothing and armor in your degeneracy are burned away from you and thrown into the sea.

>>15813549
Stop telling God what he can and can't do.

>>15813522
They didn't you fucking moron, there is a big difference between Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman. Brush up in your ontology before you talk about something you have obviously never bothered to read.

>>15813585
God, who is infinite Good and Perfection, is not subject to change [and that's a good thing, for it means He is above it]

John 14:20 - When day comes you will know that I am in my Father and that you are in me, just as I am in you.
Corinthians 3:21–22 - Actually everything belongs to you: Paul, Apollos, and Peter; this world, life and death, the present and the future — all these are yours, and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.
John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.
Colossians 1:27 - Christ is in you

>>15813288
can't you people just make one /retards general/ and keep your religion shit in one place without killing other threads?

>predicting temporality on pure abstract Noumena

There isn't even a strong scriptural argument for the existence of an Infernal Hell. Read some actual Church fathers and Theologians instead of pop shit idiot.

>>15813538
lol. and if you are wrong will you admit that you are stupid pederast who just copy pasted idea you read in one of thousands of books, just the one you liked most? you are so capable of accepting something as truth and propagating it.

>>15813597
i got my knowledge of metaphysics through guenon et al. what are you saying? (and why are you angry)

>>15813299
Necessity and love must relate together.

>>15813549
>>15813599
There is no change because all human action is predestined. God chose who would be saved before he created the world.

>>15813521
>Platonists invented
I think the last thing platonists did was to invent something. Have you read Plato and Plotinus?

>>15813603
my ass 1:1 - I am.

>>15813623
I thought you were OP, my bad anon.

>>15813545
do you really think theopoetic productions are ''fiction''?

>>15813641
i am op. now stop belittling me. the identification of the highest part of being with God is essential to neoplatonic and hindu doctrines

>>15813549
>>15813599
>>15813630
Also the states of "saved" and "damned" are not changes in God's mind but representative of man's covenantal relation to God.

>>15813653
>I get most of my knowledge through Guenon
Why would I not belittle you? Go and read the primary sources before posting stupid bait threads and pretending you actually know what you are talking about.

>>15813665
i might one day.
but does it lead to salvation?
no

>>15813522
Nous is the proceeded returning.
Life that that reflects upon itself.
The Monad is before the distinction of Nous as himself, thus the Monad is not the One but only intellect can distinguish them; but likewise the Dyad, Life, the cause of difference is itself not distinguished from the Monad which isn't distinguished from the One. Thus Intellect in his act of self reflection as Monad and Dyad returns eternally to the One, thus always being One-Being.
Like the colors in white are truly there, they are indistinguishable from each other and the white. To say whether the colors are virtual or whether the white is virtually only One, is an unanswerable question. The One is both One and All, but each is not each other. For any so called mystic can confuse and mash all things together and call it a day.
The Monad is the One, yet the One is not just the Monad. The Monad is the Image of the One that the Intellect sees in himself.

>>15813682

>>15813633
Platonism precedes Plato.
Read Gerson.

>>15813677
I gurantee you have an equally shallow knowledge of Christian theology If this is your attitude towards intellectual pursuits.

>>15813693
You want me to cite Plotinus directly?

Neither Plotinus nor Shankara worshiped cows.

>>15813702
my cock preceded your asshole
read my fist.

>>15813707
>intellectual pursuits.
that's the point. you of little faith project spirituality as intellectuality, as if by reading plotinus and shankara you would be saved with the wisdom of men through self-divinization or 'awareness' when in the end it's all about loving God

i'm not mocking intellectual pursuits, it is a duty, but it has nothing to do with salvation

>>15813613
>read some actual church fathers [...], idiot
how about you read the scripture first and stop projecting i don't read

>>15813288
>mfw an indeterminable number of “christians” will rot in their own hell because none of them can agree which is truly a christian

>>15813702
Orphism and Pythagoreanism? They didn't invent anything either.

>>15813653
>the identification of the highest part of being with God
This is wrong, in Advaita the Self is supra-individual and has no real connection tying It to individual bodies and their souls/mind, in Its true nature It is unfettered and omnipresent. If you are defining blasphemy as "to say the individual soul/person is God is blasphemous" than it's not exactly fitting to call Advaita blasphemous, because the "part" of the being identifying with God, i.e. the Atman is really not an individualized thing or anything that specifically pertains to certain individuals and Its not a part of a person.

Atman = Brahman is just saying God = God.

As part of this it's important to understand that in Advaita individuals don't have their own individual consciousnesses, individual bodies are just basically inanimate meat-puppets which are all illuminated and given contingent existence through the all-pervading non-composite light of the Atman/God. In order for the Advaita = Brahman equation to fulfill the definition of blasphemy given above there would have to be something about the individual soul/being which is identified as God, but as the one thing which is identified as God (the Atman) is strictly undivided and non-individual it's not elevating the individual or anything belonging to the individual to the status of God. Individuals don't have their own individual Atman which is recognized as God.

>>15813778
If your making a pun in the word 'invent' by the fact that their wisdom was mostly revealed to them by the gods, then sure they didn't invent anything.
Or if you mean that the Egyptians had it revealed to them first then ofc, but that doesn't deny that they too weren't revealed shit, Plotinus would have had an even harder time explaining himself if he didn't have Plato.

>>15813288
The fire of hell is same experience as the light (theoria/beautific vision) of God. The difference is in the disposition and perspective of the person, whether they are reconciled to God.

Plato established Christianity, no one is saved intellectually in Christ except through Plato.

jesus christ humans really can't accept death can they

>>15813288
Hylics gonna burn. Something has to keep the fire going.
pbuy

>>15813645
What makes Bible any more real than the Iliad?

>>15813792
i understand but it doesn't change much other than the fact i considered the tripartite composite as being while advaita denies any being other than atman/brahman. the identification of the individual's superior part (intellect, spirit, atman etc) with God is still blasphemous.

you are basically saying you are one of God's energies imprisoned in matter

>>15813817
Death is an imponderable. You can believe it to be eternal nothing, but then you have no explanation for how you somehow came to be.

>>15813288
Hell being a firescape is a medieval fanfic. Only once in the bible is a man in hell described as burning (the rich man in the Lazarus story), across many other instances hell is described completely differently. Because hell is not a "real" place, it is a state-of-being for our immortal souls. Everyone experiences their own personal versions of hell, based entirely on their own natures. Reminder that hell is eternal not because it is mandated as such, but because by the time someone gets to hell, they are too far gone from loving God to ever be capable of repenting.

>>15813804
I meant it in both ways, but I would stop short at egyptians since they had things revealed first. But yeah I agree that pagans had noetic revelations and were inspired, some more others less.

>>15813854
even the eternal nothing is intelligible, you can deem it to be either like a deep sleep, dreamless sleep or the state before birth, but all of this are taken by constraint of waking up and being born, that is, constraint of consciousness.

>>15813741
Blind faith gets you nowhere. Even the prophets in the Old Testament ask for God to prove that he is the one true God when they come into contact with him. Blind faith can only inevitably lead to seduction by false idols and satan. Without the proper knowledge serving as a foundation for your faith, you are incapable of truly recognizing God.
Wallowing in the darkness of your own creation is not admirable.

>>15813819
what makes any spiritual literary production more or less real than any other thing?

>>15813828
>the identification of the individual's superior part (intellect, spirit, atman etc) with God is still blasphemous.
That's the thing though, the Atman is not a part of the individual. In order for your accusation of Advaita being blasphemous to hold true you have to insert your tripartite view of the soul into the equation when it actually doesn't belong there, i.e. you are not actually attacking Advaita but you are only attacking your own syncretic mix of Advaita doctrine and non-Advaita doctrine

>>15813299
>he hasn't read Dante

>>15813924
Good fan fic

>>15813876
So if I train myself to remove all weaknesses then Hell isn't a problem

>This explains why, in Emil Brunner’s phrase, error is always mingled with truth. Besides, this cosmic revelation, of which the pagan religions are defective signs, is in every way an imperfect, incomplete revelation. Mosaic revelation and Christian revelation infinitely surpass it. It represents a past phase in the history of revelation. This is doubtless what makes it possible to judge the pagan religions impartially. They are, above all, outmoded survivals of a period in the history of salvation that is not our own. To remain at that stage is a sin. It is in this sense that they can be, at the same time, partially true and yet unacceptable. Buddha, Zoroaster, and Confucius may be considered as forerunners of Christ. But the function of a forerunner, as Guardini has well shown, is to efface himself when he whom he is sent to introduce makes his appearance. If he fails to do so, he becomes the enemy.

>If polytheism is the error of popular cosmic religion, pantheism is its metaphysical temptation. We may say that this is the point at which disaster has come to all the nonbiblical religions, and particularly to the higher ones—equally to the Hinduism of Sankara and to the Neo-Platonism of Plotinus. In fact, reduction to unity is the irresistible inclination of the metaphysical spirit, as also of mystical religiosity.

>The characteristic of pantheism is to eliminate the frontiers that separate God from what is not God, to misunderstand at once God’s absolute transcendence (since all is in some sense divine) and the existence of the creature (since it does not exist apart from God, but is finally drawn back to him). Pantheism may assume many forms. For Pythagorism and Platonism (with which Gnosticism is bound up) it appears as the identification of the intelligible with the divine. Every soul is a parcel of divinity, imprisoned in the world of sense and clamoring to be liberated so that it may return to its true homeland. In Plotinus this unity takes the dynamic form of a hierarchy of hypostases that are at the same time a debasement and an unfolding of the One and which return to him by a movement of contraction (epistrophè).

>But just as cosmic religion feels after God through hierophanies and is degraded in idolatry when it sees the sun or a tree as God, so the danger of mysticism is that of divinizing the spirit of man himself, of identifying the noêton with the theion, as Plotinus and Buddha did, and of thus abandoning the cruder material idols, only to be enslaved by that more subtle idol which is the spirit of man himself.

>It remains to be said that pantheism is the perversion and the clumsy misinterpretation of a sound intuition. Just as polytheism is the malformation of piety, of bhakti, in search of the object of its adoration and multiplied to the nth degree, so pantheism is the malformation of the reality of the divine immanence. For if God is beyond everything, he is also in everything.

>The error of false philosophies is precisely that of making God an object, of claiming to possess him through the intellect.

>>15813945
>he's one of those fedoras that call all religious depth on the equivalent of fan fics and spider man comics
There'd be no point in telling you to leave.

>>15813904
I am specifically talking about the fictitious stories of the Bible (and other holy books of abrahamic religions) and how they cannot be used as a proof. Do you believe that rain was literally falling for 40 days, covering the entire surface of the Earth, after an old guy grouped up a pair of every single animal in existence?

>>15813973
Yes, that's what discovery of faith and achieving true and complete love of God does. Ascetics didn't sit in the desert on pillars with no food and water for nothing.

>>15813887
The Egyptians had multiple slightly varied and competing myths, each with truth in them. Literally translated analogies like Atum "masturbating" with his "hand" into his own "mouth" does indeed sound absurd, and I would regard this myth as "culturally antiquated" even if it is true and can even be used to perfectly tell of the Christian Father's causing the Son and the Spirit. (I'm not Christian.)
The way you know how to read each of these myths is through the Tradition of "Platonism" that extends as far back literarily to 5000 year old hieroglyphs all the way up to Damascius, Simplicius, and Olympiodorus. And after them it reverses and we need the Ancients to filter out the Christian in the Christian Platonists. (the trinity makes perfect sense in Platonism, even christ does, but the Bible as a whole doesn't, nor does Orthodoxy or Catholicism, yet.)
That God would deny revelation to mankind in favor of a little tribe for 1500 years has to be rejected, on principle.

>>15813741
Read up on the theology of faith. You honestly sound like a teen who just started getting into trad stuff without ever seriously engaging with any texts.
>Sola Scriptura
You aren't a Theologian, stop LARPing.

>>15813998
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q07gxxbggJs
The biblical stories, especially the further back you go, are not literal in the sense that New Atheists demand they be read as.

>>15814041
you are making too many a assumptions there, buddy. i reject sola scriptura, and i've been reading theologians for a while. not a teen but in my late 20s

>>15813741
>how about you read the scripture first
So, read the church fathers?

>>15813299
crypto-protestant acting out their morality fetish*

every single "christian" renewal, "trad" larp nowadays is being pushed by protestant countries. every single one of these movement is moralistic in essence, not based on any theology or metaphysics.

>>15814063
why do you assume it is a crypto-prot thing to state metaphysics have no words of life? no place in salvation?

>>15813998
I believe that what you described was real in its symbolic expression. If it literally, concretely, happened or not, it is irrelevant, the symbolique is real. This is why it is retarded to deem the Bible to be ''fictitious'' in the same way it is to say the Upanishads, the Pyramid Texts, Book of the Dead, etc to be also mere fictions. Why are you trying to make a point in spiritual/theological/metaphysical/esoteric symbolique if you are not able to go past the concrete, literal words and paper, that is, if you can't go beyond matter?

i posted the quotations that prompted the creation of this thread and you're still saying there's no theological basis or that i should read more theology >>15813975

of hell:
>So, too, with hell, which is a limit problem, at the same time necessary (for without it nothing would any longer be important or serious) and nevertheless intolerable— and again it can only be met by an existential attitude.

>Man seems to Barth to be unworthy of damnation. Barth’s predestinationism leads, paradoxically, to a doctrine of universal salvation. Thus man is despoiled of the last thing that he imagined he could still call his
own and subtract from the divine omnipotence: the right to go to hell in his own way. For, as Jouhandeau has well said, hell is the ultimate expression of the value of human liberty. To deny it is to say either that liberty is incapable of resisting effective grace or that sin is finally so absurd as not even to deserve punishment.

>>15813854
There is no reason to assert that whatever came to be is eternal.

>>15814119
OH no you're gonna make jay crier seethe.
>EVERYTHING IN BOBLE HAPPENED
>ORTHODOX CHURCH SAY HISTORICAL, HISTORICAL, HYSTERICAL!

This is how it goes.
If Christianity is true, then Orthodoxy is arguably, definitely, the true interpretation of the Bible and church fathers.
But Orthodoxy is in itself wrong.
Therefore Christianity is false.
To deny either it is necessary to deny both.

If catholicism is true then it is false, for they refute their own importance.

>>15814122
>Jouhandeau

>>15814187
>If catholicism is true then it is false, for they refute their own importance.
this is nonsense

the orthodox church lost its claims to legitimacy (and orthodoxy) with the schism

>>15814201
And catholicism with vatican 2 refutes the ecumenical councils and Jewish monopoly on revelation.
The next catholic council will probably deify Aristotle and Plato.
The Orthodox attack on the other churches and arguments fir their validity are to me undeniable, If I were a Christian, but because of other things Orthodoxy asserts (which Catholicism also asserts), I can not believe in Orthodoxy and therefore I cannot be Christian.
Also fuck prots.

>>15814201
>one bishop break up the unity with the other bishops.
>it's the the other bishops who are in the wrong.

>>15814187
Why did you switch to orthodoxy and catholicism discussion out of nowhere? We were talking about the Bible. Are you really this desperate?

>>15814235
V2 was not infallible. pope paul VI said it himself, and many theologians agreed it was distorted

>>15814240
patriarchy of constantinople wanted to have primacy of eastern churches by calling themselves the rome of the east. there's only one primacy, only one head

>>15814242
take it easy on him, he listens to jay dyer. if i knew someone who listens to jay dyer would post on my thread i would have not made it

>>15814023
How does Platonism extends far back to 5000? Why wouldn't the Bible be in conformity with both Egyptian mythopoesis and paltonic one when Christ is? The echo of egyptian mysteries and symbolism in christianity is not only in Jesus, Trinity and theology, but also in liturgy.

>>15814242
maybe he wanted to see you guys tear eachoter apart over denominations
That's always funny

>>15814063
it is cool anyway. stupid people are occupied, they become dumber, they and other people seethe, fart fire, great source of lulz. laughing is true spiritual breath.

>>15814242
I said
FUCK PROTS
Literal interpretation does not exist, only tradition can decide what the correct interpretation is >>15814023
And I'm not even Christians. Thus if you're not Catholic or Orthodox you're not Christian, you're an arrogant fool who thinks their own individual midwit self has the wisdom to interpret translated revelation. To cherry pick what your feefees think must be true.
I hate all deniers of philosophic and religious tradition, even when its not even my tradition.

>>15814264
>patriarchy of constantinople wanted to have primacy of eastern churches by calling themselves the rome of the east. there's only one primacy, only one head
Yeah Jesus christ.

>>15814285
take u're meds anon it's showing

>>15814270
Because the church denies it.
>How does Platonism extends far back to 5000?
Because hieroglyphs from the early third millennium BC agrees with Neoplatonism.

>>15814298
if egyptian platonism real why mummies exist

>>15814295
Go and make believe your own 15 member church somewhere else.
PROTS deserve no respect, especially since you only have all the bad from Christianity.

>>15814324
Because as Phaedrus says, soul is always embodied, how are you supposed to ride your chariot up olympus without a body?

>>15814326
i'm not even a prot you schizo calm down.

>>15814330
I'm obviously having fun

>>15814298
>Because the church denies it.
any tradition can only maintain itself when it is centered on itself, or do you think a romantic perennialist point of view is feasible in all religions?
>hieroglyphs agrees with Neoplatonism.
and it also agrees with christianity even more explicitly, now what?

>>15814285
holy shit you need help anon

>>15813299
Any sensible person gains enjoyment from seeing justice enacted.

>>15814368
uhh sweaty??? lit is a new age crystal healing forum ur gonna get cancelled

>>15814329
Mummification is a symbolic ritual shoeing that when we are reborn we'll have a body, in heaven through Republic Plato describes bodily movemebts, Egyptians used the boat as the higher soul body, hellenes being Indo European used the Chariot. But the boat is steered by a soul with a pure body that has the perfected image of our earthly form. Matter isn't evil, nor is body in itself. The soul-body compouste from the Timaeus which we know as the Anima Mundi is perfect and good. Also known as Nature herself. Likewise the Dyad is thar matter of the One. Just as Soul is the Body of Intellect, Intellect (Heart) as a mirror is the body of the One.
All things are the Body of Amun-Ra, Zeus.

>>15814119
The Pyramid Texts and the Book of the Dead are not stories, they are spiritual guides (you could call them fiction if you say that only Christianity is true, but we're not talking about that). The flood was most likely a real event, happening in Mesopotamia. The obvious parallel between the flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh and one with Noah shows the unoriginality of the story (it's not the only one (I'd like to mention the, almost certain, connection between the Tower of Babel and Etemenanki; that one's just sad and another showcase of how Jews were really jealous of Mesopotamia in general)) and therefore collapses any "symbolic expression" it has for Christianity (or Judaism) specifically (unless you want to say that Abrahamic religions are syncretic, but I don't think that works out for anybody here).
But still, that's not the point. What I mentioned first was that you can't use the stories of the Bible as a proof for anything. Don't get me wrong, I like the book, it doesn't focus on characters of character development, it's fun, I like the grandiose narration, but it's still nothing more than a collection of stories. Lot's wife didn't turn to salt, Moses didn't part the Red Sea (not matter what BeyBlade says), penguins didn't ride a boat with Noah, et cetera. Dogma for a religion is there, but even that isn't concrete as there are countless inconsistencies and contradictions within the Bible.

Again: proof.

>>15814187
I grew up in an orthodox Christian country, so I might be biased with my higher respect for orthodoxy. Despite that - you're retarded.

>>15813299
It is not christians but protestants, the greatest cancer of thd church.
Catholics know God is loving and forgiving if repeatance is sincere.
No one is condemned to hell by God, only of their own volition can people reject him and God, as a loving father, respects the decision of his child to stray away from him, waiting with his arms open for the prodigal sons.

>>15814351
>and it also agrees with christianity even more explicitly, now what?
Yes I've said previously that the trinity and christ, in a superficial way, agrees with Atum, Osiris, Shu, Dionysus, Zeus...
But the point is your church deny these myths. And Christians like yourself always overemphasize the parallels and underplay the conflicts.
Or you don't adress stuff at all. Yes, I can easily interpret the whole Bible in a platonic lens like Origen and make it all fit. But your churches doesn't. If it isn't catholic or orthodox doctrine, I couldn't care less what interpretation and connection some church father or mystic has made. Especially when doctrine contradicts it.

>>15814453
yes, yes... but those who reject christ condemn themselves

>>15814457
why bother with the legitimacy of pagan hierophanies, rites and the logoi spermatikoi when the Logos Himself incarnated? you can't be serious you miss the polytheistic concepts over the Him who is the way and truth

>>15814440
>I'd like to mention the, almost certain, connection between the Tower of Babel and Etemenanki; that one's just sad and another showcase of how Jews were really jealous of Mesopotamia in general
Explain your issue here? Are you saying Jews claim the Tower of Babel was not in Mesopotamia?

>>15814457
as i posted above

>This explains why, in Emil Brunner’s phrase, error is always mingled with truth. Besides, this cosmic revelation, of which the pagan religions are defective signs, is in every way an imperfect, incomplete revelation. Mosaic revelation and Christian revelation infinitely surpass it. It represents a past phase in the history of revelation. This is doubtless what makes it possible to judge the pagan religions impartially. They are, above all, outmoded survivals of a period in the history of salvation that is not our own. To remain at that stage is a sin. It is in this sense that they can be, at the same time, partially true and yet unacceptable. Buddha, Zoroaster, and Confucius may be considered as forerunners of Christ. But the function of a forerunner, as Guardini has well shown, is to efface himself when he whom he is sent to introduce makes his appearance. If he fails to do so, he becomes the enemy.

and
>This is not the only example of cosmic symbols being taken up into biblical revelation. It is indeed a principle of the revelational sequence that a new revelation does not destroy, but takes over the values of the previous revelation. Christ did not destroy the Law; on the contrary, he fulfilled it. So in the first instance the Law did not abolish, but rather fulfilled, cosmic religion.

the law fulfilled the pre-mosaic traditions and christ fulfilled the law

>>15814489
They condemn themselves to not receive the love of God.
If he were to force you to accept salvation then he would infringe upon your free will.
Hell is nothing but the absence of God. Condemnation is nothing but the rejecion of his bliss.
There is salvation inside the church, but there is outside of it too.
That's the greatest difference between protestants and catholics, don't be fooled.

>>15813288
>NOOOOO but my desert mythology scripture told me that transmigration wasn't real and that I just had to worship Saturn for eternal life!!!!!

>>15814440
>>15814521
Also Flood Myths exist in far more cultures than just that of the Hebrew and Mesopotamians.
Mesoamericans had them, Japanese had them, and every culture in between across the whole globe had them. The Flood Myth is universal and either hints at a true event, and deep psychological event within our collective unconcious, or both.

>>15814528
i agree with everything you said but the point of this thread is that self identification with the Perfect Being does not lead to salvation but condemnation. this is of a metaphysical rigor and not dogmatic

>>15814489
Dionysius has already incarnated.
And he incarnated before that as Osiris (not to forget him as Odin).
If we admit the vedic Scriptures, which I'm a bit reluctant to do too much, he has incarnated a few times more.
In fact dionysus is the current world, he at the current time indisposed as the world. By which the true sense of "in him we live and move and have a our being" is most felt. But your churst will destroy the world and heaven, not reconstitute and renew it as a whole. Which will be a new Golden Age, and Dionysus will be reborn and come to his throne as Cronos-Zeus.

all brave men who die in combat go to Valhalla
>b-b-but that’s not in the bible
shut the fuck up

>>15814553
Luckily Plotinus did not think that.

>>15814073
protestants are not moved by anything intellectual, but by pure psychology. Protestantism is the rejection of christian dogma, in favor of moralism. Addressing protestantism intellectualy is therefore useless, one must address the psychology behind it.

>>15813288
I believe in universal salvation

>>15814557
>pagan larping
ohnonononono

>>15814521
Nothing specific, I really like ziggurats. I think they're neat. I was just mentioning that it might be one of the cases where Jews were really fucking pissed at the superiority of Mesopotamia (see also Isaiah 14, if I'm not mistaken). It was not connected my point.

>>15814551
>deep psychological event within our collective unconcious
That sounds interesting. I'll look it up! Do you have any sources or..?

>>15814554
>>15814554
>Dionysius has already incarnated.
>And he incarnated before that as Osiris (not to forget him as Odin).
>In fact dionysus is the current world, he at the current time indisposed as the world.
see. you can't be taken as a serious person when you reject the NT and claim shit like "dionysius, osiris and odin incarnated"

The Logos of God says:
>All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them

>But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

these are as clear as they can be and you come with osiris, odin, dionysius bullshit
>>15814573
yes they are fideists, reject reason among other heresies. however i made this thread and im not prot nor crypto prot

>>15814553
Yes, there are metaphysical interpretations that can lead a person to distance himself from God, such as gnosticism or what you are pointing to. But my reply was talking about the difference in the understanding of salvation in Catholicism vs Protestantism and especially Calvinism.
There is a very deep misscharacterization of Grace in those faiths. Protestant ethics lead to individualism and rejecting our equals in a vain moralist fashion.

>>15814594
That was worded from myself. I'm sure Jung or Campbell have talked about it.

>>15813991
It's literally a three part work where he meets fucking VIRGIL, who was widely held to be the father of poetry, in a fucking forest and VIRGIL-senpai, again, takes personal in HIM and leads HIM around hell where he sees all the unpopular people he didn't like being punished for their sins. The entire concept of "The wicked dead are punished underground for their sins" is a pagan invention. It is a holdover from Italian and Greek Hellenism and is not Christian. He is an Italian crypto-pagan who wrote a poem where the ancient pagan poets took special interest in him and decided to show him around pagan tartarus Christian Hell.

>>15814440
I find it curious how even people engaged with sacred texts cannot divert themselves from this mental inclination so prevalent among moderns. And the Pyramid Texts were not stories, anon? The symbolism of the Battle of Kadesh in temples were not a story even taken as historical to symbolize spiritual telos? And why would the Bible be different? You can read anywhere about this, try Tauler's sermons, they are short and tell us how Abraham, for example, was depicted in the exact manner of a King in egyptian stories; Gregory of Nyssa's Life of Moses too is explicit on this. Taking originality into account in this issue here just proves more evidently what I mean by this modern mentality. Plotinus words: ''we are not concerned with originality here in the doctrines we expose''. Ancient Near East seethed with numinous fervor and this is clear with all creative gnosis produced through myriad of sacred texts, each preserving idiosyncratic elements, there is no point in superficial comparisons like you presented when the issue here is much more profound than the external and concrete words.

>>15814457
>in a superficial way
I am being honest here, why can't you be as well? The Christ Passion and Resurrection is not superficial Osirian-Horian symbolism, it is Incarnated. It penetrated our history.

As I said before, I don't think you are prepared to discuss maintenance of a tradition if you are led by external differences in a sentimental way as a protestant layman, for example.

>>15814632
>all brave men who die in combat go to Valhalla
>*alt tabs*
>NO MOM IM NOT HUNGRY

>>15814606
Dionysus, the God-Man
Walked the earth around 1000 BC in the transition of the heroic age (collapse of the bronze age) to ours.
In his higher series he is the whole universe, and every soul is fragment of him. Just as the gods make up Atum-Ra we make up Dionysus.
When we reconstitute our fragmented selves, then we will ascend together with him, Zeus, up Olympus to his Throne. Then all reality will be renewed and commence a new Golden Age. All of this precedes Christianity by hundreds and even thousands of years, Christianity is nothing but a cheap syncretism, and you call us thieves when you yourself or some guy here says it has all been prefigured in pagan myths.
Not even your idea of hypostatic union is original.

>>15814652
Replied to the wrong post?

>>15814675
you are just making stuff up. as eliade pointed out all of this pantheon stuff is later addition and not actually traditional or religious. you are literally taking polytheism as a thing it never was (religion) and making claims that are zeitgeist tier. i was paying attention to your posts and you came out as a schizo larper. i'm disappointed.

instead of believing in christ you prefer your dumb boomer tier schizo reading of the ancients

>>15814675
as i said it: whatever truth there was (in the hierophanies) prefigured the law and the law prefigured christ. or the law fulfilled ancient traditions and christ fulfilled the law. we are talking about the true God who said: "I Am that I Am" and sent His incarnated Word 2000

yet for some reason you stick to shady jordan peterson tier analysis of old stories that may or may not have contained prefiguration of the law

>>15814650
>the issue here
What "issue" are you specifically talking about?
>Tauler's sermons
>Gregory of Nyssa's Life of Moses
I'll check them out, thanks.
>among moderns
Fuck off, you're not a mystic rising above 'us'.

>>15814727
>see. you can't be taken as a serious person when you reject the NT and claim shit like "dionysius, osiris and odin incarnated"
>The Logos of God says:
>>All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them
>>But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.
>these are as clear as they can be and you come with osiris, odin, dionysius bullshit
>>15814023
read the picture
it dates to way before moses or "abraham", around 200 BC

the TL;DR is a hymn to the deceased that they are Shu (atum-ra, Zeus), they are his body together as One greater than all the Gods.
Paralleling Christ's talk about 'one in him' as 'he is one with the father', except 2000 years earlier.
Orphic hymns mentioned as early as 500BC, in which we find the series of the Gods, Phanes, Zeus, Dionysus all being One yet distinct.
In Assyrian mythology there's also the concept of the Singular God and all the gods.
"The Book One God or Many?: Concepts of Divinity in the Ancient World" explores all of this, and even this is now slightly outdated after 20 years.
Eliade didn't know any of all this, hieroglyphs hadn't even been fully translated correctly during his time, and even if they were there was not really any scientific consensus of what they mean, three translations of the same can all "contradict" each other. The Egyptologists Hornung, J P Allen, and Assmann all disgree on the correct interpretations and are all seen as preeminent Egyptologists.
Nor could the ancients read hieroglyphic so it was impossible for them to misconstrue them, the shocking parallels that we've found are less than 50 years old.

>>15814812
I'm sorry if I sounded pretentious, but it is a fact that the modern mentality stands in utter opposition to the mentality of the ancients. That way of comparison and evaluation of the symbolique is crass.

In Islam, when you are dying you will be visited by the Angel of Death
his appearance will depend on your Deed on Earth.
Some will show up as a handsome man who take your hand, some as a hideous monster that will rip your soul out
the latter is more common.

It is said that the act of ripping apart the soul from the body is like ripping out a large thorny metal that have been struck to the body

Upon death or burial, you will be visited by 2 Angels (I forgot their names) that will interrogate you about all you have done on Earth. Their appearance and smell are, once again, determined by your deeds.

First and foremost however, is the most infamous question in Alam Barzakh (Realm of the Dead): Who is your God? Who is your Prophet?

Those who are unable to answer these questions will be hit with a large mace.
The force is so strong that the hit will push you into 7 layers of Earth.
There are lots of folk lore about people hearing the cries of the Dead.
Even the Prophet will cry every time he passes through a graveyard because he can hear the suffering of those poor souls...

Those who are able to answer these questions however, will wait peacefully in their graves and can look through an opening into a vision of the Heaven.
They will simply wait their time in complete bliss.

This will happen until the Judgement Day arrives.

(I will omit the description of the End Times, they are quite interesting and cool too)

When God commences the Judgment Day, He will raise all the dead souls.
God will also raise every objects that will bear witness to your deeds.

Upon reincarnation, they will have to travel through Mahsyar Field, an enormous desert that is so hot as if the Sun is within hand's reach.
Some will travel by foot, some by horses, some by camels, etc etc depending on your deeds.

Upon arrival at the end of the field, you will be judged with the entire universe as witness.
God will ask you questions and you cannot lie, for even your hands, ears and hairs will bear witness against you and will replay every sins that you have committed for all of humanity to see.

Then, walking further, you will see a large and bottomless fissure. At the other end is Heaven and below the dark and harrowing fissure is Hell.
The only way to cross the fissure is through a small thread, 1/7 of a human hair, called Sirat Bridge.
This bridge, if you can call it that, is so small, that it will slice almost every person walking through it that they will fall to Hell and stay there for eternity.
The last humiliation before an eternity of suffering, as they will regret endlessly all the times they have wasted.

-- THE END --

that's all i can muster to write for now. Its been some time since I read all this stuff. I used to not be able to sleep because of this too.

>>15814847
True, for better or for worse.

>>15814833
2000BC* not 200

>>15814871
>>15814833
>>15814727
>>15813288
>christianity is unique and special!

>>15814923
I advise you to read your own thread, we have been over this.

>>15814848
>I used to not be able to sleep because of this too.
why not anymore?

>>15814923
How does this oppose any of the historical witness that is the new testament?

>every person posting in this thread has a finite amount of time existing (on Earth)
>we still waste our time posting in this thread
Such a sad feeling frens

>>15814848
>the most infamous question in Alam Barzakh (Realm of the Dead): Who is your God? Who is your Prophet?
what happens if i answer Jesus christ?

>>15814942
because I am not as practiced as I used to.
I don't know, part of it is also because I have been contemplating suicide since I was in middle school on and off
So that partly plays a role I guess, I was practically a schizo back then
i believed that my parents were out to kill me, poisoning my food and everything
pretty crazy how i stopped thinking like that
i don't remember when i stopped

i guess one of the more interesting reason why I lack faith today is due to WW2.
I loved to watch those, especially the concentration camp stuff
I thought to myself, these 2 wars are perhaps the most horrible and horrendous act of humanity, at such a scale and ferocity that it dwarf many, many human crimes of the past but Islam seems to have never mentioned it in their prophecy, nor does it play any particularly important role in the main stage
I just felt so insignificant

>>15814952
>historical witness
???
Matthew, John, Luke, and Mark weren't actually there. The NT was written long after Jesus died, from compiled principles and knowledge of his life.

>>15814937
this was against the guy quoting eliade that all of this was neoplatonic revisionism, when they couldn't even read Old or Middle Egyptian

>>15814989
then you will get bashed repeatedly till the End Times. They will ask this question repeatedly and you will not be able to answer honestly
Because at the moment, you lips will be closed and you cannot utter the right answer unless your faith compels you

>>15813288
>but religion told me it was going to be different

>>15815006
It is a historical testimony. In this sense I said witness

>>15815006
>20 to 60 years after Chirst’s death
>oral message
>long after
B-but they were not there and Dyonisos inncarnated 1000BC i swear!!!

Superior thread >>15814983

>>15815073
whenever you drink wine you drink his blood
(another christian theft)
the true god of vines

>>15815108
based

>>15815109
>nooooo dyonisos was not a blatant theft from egyptianss like basically all greek pantheon and philosophical production

>>15814652
all brave men who die in counter strike logout and return to mom and her fridge.

>>15814848
Answer: the Holy Trinity. St John the Baptist
>>15815108
>sees spirituality in terms of nietzschean ideals
>as if being born caste-less was comparable to eternal damnation
Uh oh

>>15814647
>takes personal in HIM and leads HIM around
You're not a great man. This is in effect like criticising Buddha or Christ with egomania because "the devil took an interest in HIM".

>where he sees all the unpopular people he didn't like being punished for their sins
What a crude peasant reduction.

>The entire concept of "The wicked dead are punished underground for their sins" is a pagan invention.
Of course everyone went to the nice Achilles island after death didn't they anon. Lmao read some more. Furthermore your definition of paganism and religion in general is nothing more than another dishonest attempt to specifically make your religion more important than it is. Dishonest because you seem to think Christianity is not a religion which exists like any other with the definitions of religion. Even if Christianity's conception of hell were "created" by Greece/Rome then it would change nothing. Because you're functionally retarded to then proceed to call it "non-Christian".

>He is an Italian crypto-pagan who wrote a poem where the ancient pagan poets took special interest in him and decided to show him around pagan tartarus Christian Hell.
Every inch of that work is Christian you retard, you literally can't understand Dante if you don't know what Christianity is or understand it yourself. Does any detail of the work even matter to you? Do the layers of Hell even matter to you? Do the different sins even matter to you? Does the ever-deep relation between Compassion and Repentance mean anything to you? Does anything in the work even matter to you other than some vague mythological concepts like "punishment in afterlife" that give value to your pseudo-paganism?

Pagans are such LARPers, and for their arrogance, they remain ignorant of things as beautiful as this, which I consider to be a religious revelation itself, as all true art.

>>15815139
>>15815139
we don't believe any ethnicity has inspirational monopoly
the northern Europeans had no connection with the Egyptians yet they have the ginnugagap, the cycles and eternity of time, they have Odin (man dionysus) dying for the forms and wisdom, spewing them from his mouth like Atum spews reality.
There's comparative religion because there's one truth, each people with a little truth. But none with as much truth as the Greeks. Even your false god saw the superiorituy of the Greeks and threw away the Jewish manufactured 'specialness'.

And all you have against this are shitty one-liners of seething opinion without argument

>>15815181
I'm not glorifying paganism you utter tard, I'm pointing out that Christianity steals 99% of its book from pagans and openly admits this in its own fucking histories
>Christmas
Pagan
>Easter
Pagan
>Saints
Pagan
>Hell
Pagan
>God as a physical being
Pagan
>Papal authority/infallibility
Literally just the pontifex maximus

Christianity is a pagan religion. It doesn't matter whether it's pagan with flavors of compassion. There is nothing differentiating modern Christian practice from exactly what Hellenism would have looked like if the monotheistic shift towards Jove as a single deity had actually happened, barring a few "Judaic" toppings on this thoroughly Roman pizza of a fucking religion.

>>15815311
Again, the greeks took basically everything from the egyptians. The most spiritual and intellectual centers in ancient greece, viz. orphic cults, pythagoreanism and platonism, were DIRECTLY, with their founders initiated in egyptian theology, influenced by them. I am not entering into the merit of the heavily rationalistic turn some of the symbols and doctrines took, still, they preserved what they gained from the ancient egyptians.
Christianity and Platonism were linked by time and truth. Again, this has been discussed here in this thread, there is a line from egyptian mysteries to platonism to christianity, not to mention that the Fathers were mostly meds who spoke greek. Anyhow the character of egyptian myth is more evident in Christ than platonism.
Not realizing this is proof of a quite superficial understanding about what we are discussing.

>>15815364
monotheism and polytheism is abrahamic invented lie, "polytheism" has never existed.
>>15815488
are you saying this like it means soething?
the legend of Thales says this, Pythagoreans praise this idea, Plato openly revered Egypt. Plutarch and Aristotle also claimed this. the Neoplatonists used this very idea as proof of their validity (which modern studies keep proving).
>this has been discussed here in this thread
by a guy who sounds like Duginist Prot, with protestantisim you can claim whatever the fuck you want as true
Christ is the poor man's Prometheus and Dionysus

eternal damnation
creation ex nihilo
that the world and time isn't eternal
inspirational monolopoly fr the jews then church councils/pope
god's jealousy
horrid acts by god in the bible, old and new (sending bears to ill children for bantering and making innocent jokes
the loss of free will in heaven (incapacity to choose evil that would lead to another fall)
that the soul isn't pre-existent
that there is no reincarnation beyond the second birth in the rapture
that the world is evil and must be annihilated completely and then make a new universe
that god freely created satan and all eternally damned souls is evil, a good being would have opted out from creating any soul he'd foresee to be eternally damned.

and this is just from the top of my head

>>15815364
WTF is this?
Is pagan the new racist, nazi, sexist of this board?
Who cares if it's pagan or not?

>>15815726
he's using it in praise against Christians

Bravo to the anon who didn't post anything because there is no existence after death.

>>15815670
>monotheism and polytheism is abrahamic invented lie, "polytheism" has never existed.
then why anti-christian scholars are always spreading the false idea of moses and akhenaten separation from ''polytheism''? this idea of One True God has its echoes in many other religions.
finally, i agree with you, polytheism was a thing only for the plebeian and the retarded modern people.

>why are you saying this, proceeds to repeat what i succintly said.
because you said the greeks were the peak of truth, peak of its exposition when in reality it was in decline with them, as i said, they survived in crass mythological accounts and in rationalistic philosophy (already a corruption).

do you have any actual solid retort other than spouting sentimental shit accusing others of being ''duginist protestant'' (what does it even mean lol) because your point is evidently false?

don't know why you made that list, you want to discuss each of them? what is your fucking point holy shit

>>15815885
>rationalistic philosophy
you probably think Thales was the first scientist and demystifier, when what fragments we have are anything but, that all is water is reminiscent of Nun the primordial waters. And another is "everything is full of gods".
This enlightenment rationalism about the Greek philosophers is at best only true of Aristotle.
Greeks as peak of truth I refer solely to Plato—everything you need philosophically exists in his dialogues if read as a whole and through a "neoplatonic lens"—and the Neoplatonists. Damascius at the precipice of truth's destruction gave us its completion.
We only have hymns and prayers from egypt, not exegesis of correct interpretation of them, this is what the Greeks give us, and is connected to my bashing of prots and praise of tradition up above. Even if their exegesis is about mostly hellenic myths, the pyramid texts and coffin texts show us that the Greek author Plutarch's rendition of the Osiris and Isis mythology in around 80AD has survived for 2500 years intact, the neoplatonists around Damascius time had even begun revive the understanding of hieroglyphs (but probably crude, and yet their ontology is in harmony with them), but thanks to Christians we lost all capacity to read any variation of Egyptian script, up until now of course.

>>15815885
>dugin
https://youtu.be/D90G1Efx950
protestant in that it is impossible to reconcile christianity and the Hellenist/egyptian/pagan world, without rejecting orthodoxy/catholicism. But then you'd have to revise the entire bible, or reject parts of it; again, protestant x3.

>>15815726
>>15815769
I'm not using it to praise or degrade anything. I am simply saying that the notion that modern Christian Hell is in any some aspect of judeo-christian philosophy at the time of Christ is utterly false. It is a fundamentally pagan idea and has little to do with any kind of real and substantial Christian philosophy, which is why the idea has been abandoned by almost all Christians except certain groups of American proties who still parade around fire and brimstone because it's aesthetic and makes people feel better about their religious choices.

>>15813299
They're cruel people and deserve all the ridicule they get

>>15816437
true, as I too said in
>>15813569
nor is it even the Hellenic idea, but a medieval Latin semi-illiterate corruption, like Catholicism itself

>>15813569
Holy fuck, what a based post. Which church has the same view as this post?

>>15813569
Imagine how Pilates, or any person would feel who was in part responsible for the death of Jesus when they die and meet God. Imagine feeling mercy at that moment.
You killed the son of God, and He still loves you. The emotion would be the greatest possible happiness and the greatest sadness at the same time.

/lit/ "christians" will boil nearby because boasting on 4chan about being divine isn't helpful against the flames (and is actually detrimental).

>>15816223
>Thales
I know he traveled to Egypt and what his waters meant. No reason to mention this pedantic information here.

> rationalism about the Greek philosophers is at best only true of Aristotle.
Sorry, no. You are wrong, AGAIN. I'll give you a clue and you can work with it: Zeno and Atomism. Now try to figure it out, you are informed I don't think it'll be difficult for you.

>Plato is peak
while i said (and you ignored) that his main influences, despite his initiation in egypt, being three other initiated in egyptian mysteries, he explictly laughs at greeks thinking they are original in almost all of his dialogues, have you even read them?
take this account from proclus too:
>rantor also says that Plato's contemporaries used to criticize him jokingly for not being the inventor of his Republic but copying the institutions of the Egyptians. Plato took these critics seriously enough to assign to the Egyptians this story about the Athenians and Atlanteans, so as to make them say that the Athenians really once lived according to that system.
Not going to mention the ''neo''platonists, have you read Iamblichus? It is as if you were not even trying to be coherent.

>>15816371
>>15816223
responding both idiots here, if not the same person.
read a fucking book, i beg you. it is not only the platonic influence on theology that extends back to egyptian theology, but even the christian LITURGY has egyptian symbolism, and this is one thing the neoplatonists lacked, traditional liturgy.

you don't care about truth, you are solely driven by hatred and ideology, scum of scum.

>>15816711
>read a fucking book
>and this is one thing the neoplatonists lacked, traditional liturgy.
>read a fucking book
>Zeno and Atomism
>read a fucking book
>have you read Iamblichus?
>the neoplatonists lacked, traditional liturgy.
>read a fucking book
So then, after declaring that pure intellects are “unbending and not mingled with the sensible realm,” you raise the question as to whether it is proper to pray to them. For my part, I would hold the view that it is not proper to pray to any others. For that element in us which is divine and intellectual and one—or, if you so wish to term it, intelligible—is aroused, then, clearly in prayer, and when aroused, strives primarily towards what is like to itself, and joins itself to essential perfection.
And if it seems to you incredible that the incorporeal should hear a voice, and that what we utter in prayer should have need of a further sense-organ, and specifically of ears, you are deliberately forgetting the facility of the primary causes for knowing and comprehending within themselves all that is inferior to them; for they embrace in unity within themselves all beings together. So then, it is neither through faculties nor through organs that the gods receive into themselves our prayers, but rather they embrace within themselves the realisations of the words of good men, and in particular of those which, by virtue of the sacred liturgy, are established within the gods and united to them; for in that case the divine is literally united with itself, and it is not in the way of one person addressing another that it participates in the thought expressed by the prayers.
>but even the christian LITURGY has egyptian symbolism
Yes. Also Elysian/Orphic theurgy, there is nothing original in Christianity. Even the rites of eating Christ flesh and drinking his blood comes from Elusian Sparagmos

>>15814453
all your post was proven wrong by Nietzsche

>>15816711
>>15816851
also liturgy is never revealed rather is is composed by the inspired artists' rendition of hymns and prayers, anyone can compose liturgy, that we've lost the notes of the ancients doesn't matter muvh whe Plato in Book 2 of Laws says liturgy should be continually revised and added onto, always improved. This loss is nothing but a great field of free musical creation.
You picked the wrong fool to accuse

>>15816851
again ignoring points previously made and the kernel of the discussion to post slanted comparisons.
i think we finish here.

>>15816909
Christ addressed directly the apostles as to how to conduct prayers and other liturgical performances.

>>15816948
what's the inner kernel of this thread?
I think there have been like 5 distinct arguments, only two of which I've engaged in. I think the guy you've talked to for 70% of your posts have been some other guy.
I'm not even sure what your argument is, are you the guy who's "Egypt Only"?, and whom which I accuse of Protestantism because he has no way of correctly interpreting the TENS OF THOUSANDS of hymns without a philosophical tradition to draw from?
>>15816967
And Plato addressed mankind that some free indulgence every once in a while and artistic freedom (in creation) is necessary for the survival of a state to not fall into total degeneracy like the whole christian west.
Since we believe that beauty can only come from god, any creation that is beautiful is divinely inspired (not the same as revelation), as Ion also says. And a good culture will in time filter out the greatest liturgies and songs, a type of virtuous democracy. The popular of today passes, but the great stuff lasts centuries.
And this is also how chrisitanity managed to survive, they manage to extract some of the myths that most resonates with the Soul, just as Plato did; but what we see now is that Christianity's fame, like Islam, was enforced, nnot because of truly popular appeal. Unlike Plato, who is preserved by nothing but true appeal.

>>15814298
Any books on this?

>>15817057
>kernel
Yes, you ignored everything I said proving your stupid utterance of ''peak of truth with greeks'' is false and even contrary to the truth of the matter.

>no way of correctly interpreting the TENS OF THOUSANDS of hymns without a philosophical tradition to draw from?
Have you heard about the Pharaonic Opus Magnum? This is the end of Christic revelation, founded on the incarnation of the divine, human divinization, theosis (not henosis of Plotinus, and here we can see the abismal qualitative difference in the relation between Christianity and Platonism with Egyptian theology). Old Testament prophets also treat the theme of the liberation of the eye of horus in many different forms.
Now look at this:
>Life and death depend on it for all beings, except for Him, Amon, for Ra and for Ptah unity-trinity.

>It is Unas! It is Unas! the Knower of wisdom who is at the right of Ra.

The force of the symbolique in Christianity is incomparably greater than in Platonism, and it is this symbolique which evokes the intuition of a function which eludes rationalization in the egyptian theopoesis. The Isenheim Altarpiece is one among many evidences of this. Just to cite a single force of the symbolique in this altarpiece: Mary in the painting is collapsing in anguish, she is pale and dressed in luminous white. John supports her garbed in bright red: the red supporting the white is reminiscent of the white pharaonic crown placed in front of the red crown.

You ignore the very faith the egyptians had in favour of philosopic schools. There is an inestimable difference between the rationalistic expositions of platonic philosophy (even though it is founded on numinous intuition, some more like Plotinus, others less like Proclus). Egyptian and Christian traditions are the true revealed ones and Platonism was a historical and theological link between the two (historical because it is a succession, a single flux of revelation, and theological because christian theology got many things from platonic rationality).

You are have a very mundane looking on sacred things and cherish an ideological bias in your heart.

>>15817057
>>15817314
Oh also, don't make expose the relation between the symbolique in cathedrals and egyptian temples and their way of building like alchemical transmutation in stained glass and choice and make of specific bricks and stones in ancient temples.

Christians seething: the thread.

>>15817057
>>15817314
>>15817375
Like the egyptian said in Timaeus
>O Solon, Solon, you greeks are all children. There isn't an old man among you.

>>15817314
henosis is temporary theosis,
>Have you heard about the Pharaonic Opus Magnum?
nope, but probably inspired Ficino's flawed perspective.
>some more like Plotinus, others less like Proclus
I aree that Proclus rationalistic autism sometimes clouded his vision, similar to Ammonius and Porphyry, why I praise Damascius who a critiqued this before and better than anyone else.
>The force of the symbolique in Christianity is incomparably greater than in Platonism
Ah, because your hateful christians have destroyed our icons. The depth of this >>15815670 bust of Sabazios (Anatolian Dionysus) found in Rome transcends most of Christianity's poor excuse for synthemata, a word your "chrisitan" Pseudo-Dionysius borrowed from his neoplatonic teachers, whose name itself betrays his true allegiance.
>You ignore the very faith the egyptians had in favour of philosopic schools.
The Egyptians "invented" philosophy, again you spew this enlightenment revisionism, the High Priest was the high Exegete, sometimes his authority superseded the Pharaoh's. Theology is the highest form of philosophy, the hieratic prayer, the highest form of prayer, is to expound on scriptures. For it like a statue maker who chips away at your mind's misconceptions, opening the way towards the truth.

>>15817390
>O Solon, Solon, you greeks are all children. There isn't an old man among you.
exactly, Plato is the highest criticizer of the Greeks before him. Again, it is he who fully brought the Egyptian lore wrapped in riddles, who took Greece to the apex of thought.
I'll have to remind you that Greece is unified with Egypt already by the time christ it had been united as I mentioned by Plutarch. "Neoplatonism" IS Egyptian religion, it isn't some branch of it but its continuation.

>>15817587
first sunthemata is inherent in all sacred mythopoesis, it is not something invented or crafted, such an obvious remark should be clear at this point.
second, sunthemata is a greek word, it is not because platonists employed it that christians who lived after them couldnt use, the same thing is true for the words ousia, hypostasis, etc. but retards think that platonists have authority on all greek language, territory and historical time.
saying the areopagita was not a christian is the very revisionism of which you accuse me, purely historical speculation. christian teachers having platonist disciples and platonist teachers having christian disciples was very common. hypatia had christian disciples, origen was the disciple of a platonist, plotinus had ammonius saccas as teacher.

>sazabios transcends most of christianity's symbolique
sure, how? can you provide a tradition of symbolique expression like i did with a few examples? and how the greco-roman ones reflect with so much force the inherent egyptian sacred science as i did concerning christian ones?

>egyptians invented philosophy
nah, sebayt is the closest thing to philosophy and it is still a secondary kind of literature, not as high as the egyptian theology, but derived from its metaphysics and muthopoesis like any other branches of the sacred science.

>>15817652
>it is he who fully brought the Egyptian lore wrapped in riddles, who took Greece to the apex of thought.
wrong. many preceded him and he was not the first one to do this. i have told you this like two or three times. and you are just being incoherent to your own words.

>Neoplatonism IS Egyptian religion
ehh idk they are equal only insofar as they haven't incarnated the Truth, but kinda different in the most simple and evident aspect: religiousness.

>>15817766
it is interesting to note the ambiguity of someone like Ammonius Saccas, great influence on both Origen and Plotinus, who defended that both platonism and christianity were not different. This only proves how intricate was the relation between both platonism and Christianity, Ammonius had christian parents, pagan sources deny he was christian and another Ammonius was the christian one, whom we have no information at all besides being known for this very forgery.

>>15817766
>sunthemata is a greek word
it's not just "a Greek word", the Areopgatie uses it EXACTLY like Neoplatonists used it, same with symbola. Its not like hypostasis with 2 and a half meanings.
>can you provide a tradition of symbolique expression like i did with a few examples, no because the meaning of each symbol in the bust has been lost to us, but we can draw parallels in it to Asclepius, Hermes, the Thyrsus and the Pine cone. The Proto-mithraic killing of the bull signifying the beginning of a new age. The coiling serpent requires a whole book, but you're probably familiar with it.
The hands of sabazios are even better, these are also pre-christian, I would even Speculate that christianity emerged from the Anatolian Dionysus cults, with the Hypsistarians and all. The bottom shows a woman with a child, probably the divine child most exemplified by the Child Horus or Nefertem. The bird has many implications.
The whole bust is also paralleled with the symbols of Phanes Protogonos who is all things before all is made, with the many various creatures icons within icons.

sebayt is an expression of philosophy, theurgy is philosophy, virtuous politics is philosophy, to be virtuous and truthful is to do philosophy.
>wrong. many preceded him and he was not the first one to do this. i have told you this like two or three times. and you are just being incoherent to your own words.
FULLY brought, as in being a perfecting purifying element
And Ammonius Saccas wasn't christian.

>>15817816
Plotinus saw no distinction beween gnostics and christians, seen by him never mentioning the latter, they were a non-entity to him. Christianity only exploded in popularity in the fourth century, by the brainlet constantine who was barely christian and more like some perennialist.
>>15818021 lost picture

>>15813828
>separating God from Creation
Think of Atman as the Christian Logos; the immanence of the Divine.

>>15813521
>we Platonists
Bro.... unholy cringe.

>>15818021
>>15818052
The day you Christians (as in the church) redeem Origen I will take you as honorable continuation of truth. And there is possibility that he will be, going by current discussion about him, like that of Anthony McGuckin. But only THEN will your wild speculations about christ and egypt seem legitimate.

>>15818145
Witness the awakening of sincerity, while authenticity is dead for you. All we see here are the desperate deathroes of the false Abrahamics, south america is pagan, protestants are groups of scamming fools, fragmentators; orthooxy is a non-entity that also have begun its self-destruction. Trad-caths seething in denial, SSPX? A fucking joke. Go and accept your divinely ordained servile cuck of a pope.

>>15818021
>it's not just "a Greek word''...
it is literally synonymous with sumbolon, Clement of Alexandria also employs the word to describe eleusinian tokens. No christian deny platonic influence on the Areopagita though, are you not aware of someone like Saint Maximus? or Augustine?

>The Proto-mithraic killing of the bull = new age
wew literally pre-historic symbolism is peak greco-roman symbolique? laughable

>coiling serpent
yes it requires books because this is as universal as the one you mentioned above

>cites the hands of sabazios but follows with more speculation on christianity
anon...

nothing of this is a tradition of symbolique, a tradition is a definite circle, you are just wandering aimlessly among some particular pieces. do you think this is comparable to, say, orthodox iconography? go read someone like leonid ouspensky to have an idea of what i mean here. i gave you a notion how close not only the cathedrals are to egyptian temples but their mode of construction being exactly the same, based on the same principles and you come with all this superficial entry-level pre historic symbolism.

>sebayt is an expression of philosophy, theurgy is philosophy
you could not be more wrong. all of this is sacred science, their theurgy (liturgy) expression of their theopoesis and theology. sebayt is basically their ethics which are grounded on theological principles. this is the basics of all traditions, go read some guénon for introduction on this.

>FULLY brought, as in being a perfecting purifying element
what does it even mean? orphic and pythagoreanism were less legitimate than plato's rational inclination?

>>15818052
>Plotinus saw no distinction beween gnostics and christians
more speculation, he was ammonius saccas disciple and had origen as a fellow student of ammonius's, plotinus is not attacking all gnostics but sethianism if i am not wrong. platonic doctrines were used by gnostic sects in their conflict with christians, are you aware of any clash between gnostic and platonists? what about conflicts between gnostic sects and christians? why would plotinus dedicate a whole treatise against gnostics?

>Christianity only exploded in popularity in the fourth century.
started to explode around early 100 AD. Justin, Ignatius, Pope Clement,, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Polycarp, Irinaeus, Papias, Abercius, Valentinus, Eusebius, Saint Anthony. This is like three times the number of main platonists.

>>15818208
Origen was holy, but wrong about some crucial things. In my opinion, even though I like him, we have many other christian platonists and mystics and who remained orthodox (this a great deal of our tradition, even aquinas had as his main influence a christian platonist).

You are just proud and mundane, irredeemable ignoramus. I depart from here.

>>15817766
Also here's porphyry's explification of rhe Statues of Zeus. thankfully preserved by the semi-arian heretic Eusebius.
>The thoughts of a wise theology, wherein men indicated God and God's powers by images akin to sense, and sketched invisible things in visible forms, I will show to those who have learned to read from the statues as from books the things there written concerning the gods. Nor is it any wonder that the utterly unlearned regard the statues as wood and stone, just as also those who do not understand the written letters look upon the monuments as mere stones, and on the tablets as bits of wood, and on books as woven papyrus.
>As the deity is of the nature of light, and dwells in an atmosphere of ethereal fire, and is invisible to sense that is busy about mortal life, He through translucent matter, as crystal or Parian marble or even ivory, led men on to the conception of his light, and through material gold to the discernment of the fire, and to his undefiled purity, because gold cannot be defiled.
>On the other hand, black marble was used by many to show his invisibility; and they moulded their gods in human form because the deity is rational, and made these beautiful, because in those is pure and perfect beauty; and in varieties of shape and age, of sitting and standing, and drapery; and some of them male, and some female, virgins, and youths, or married, to represent their diversity.
>Hence they assigned everything white to the gods of heaven, and the sphere and all things spherical to the cosmos and to the sun and moon in particular, but sometimes also to fortune and to hope: and the circle and things circular to eternity, and to the motion of the heaven, and to the zones and cycles therein; and the segments of circles to the phases of the moon; pyramids and obelisks to the element of fire, and therefore to the gods of Olympus; so again the cone to the sun, and cylinder to the earth, and figures representing parts of the human body to sowing and generation.

>>15816456
A wise man once said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I would think that any worthwhile god would not be so petty.

>>15818405
>guénon
oh geez oh no
>I depart from here.
good
>This is like three times the number of main platonists.
The superior preservation of text due your fathers destroying everything beautiful isn't something I'd be proud about.
I mentioned Proto-mithraic because it's the central theme of mithraism, it was a a anticipation of the common insult that Mithraism is something post-christian.
But yes is present in the oldest legend of Gilgamesh, and it is found in the worship of Serapis (Osiris Apis), but all of this to me only proves historic legitimacy, unlike christianity which only has a small over-hyped selection of truths.

>>15818103
Except the logos is Christ and not (inside) you and me. But I suppose you will go as far as say there is no you and me as if this conversation was not taking place in reality. A mere appearance of the true imanationist being below it all --- this is not logos

>>15818515
You are delude. You are neither a metaphysician nor a religious person. A mere collector of encyclopedic entries. Dead faith

>>15818535
you mean like john damascene?

>>15818541
Are you saying st John Damascene had dead faith and that you are somewhat similar? As I said, deluded

>>15818556
has your arguments ended
are only you left with Cyrilian insults because you have no real arguments against Julian?
But yes, if you stick to Maximus the Confessor and throw out the pseud guenon, and actually read the "neo"platonists directly, maybe you'll become a based christian like he and the Areopagite. You're clearly knowledgeable and could perhaps influence the church to a better direction.

>>15818606
I'm another anon. Still you are not part of any tradition and all this you speak of (Osiris, Odin, Dionysius) is long lost and just archeological curiosities. Your mythical knowledge depends on the work of contemporary academics and I doubt scholars have any valuable means of interpreting anything from old traditions

>>15818606
>Still you are not part of any tradition
pic related just killed modern philosophy as recently this spring
he has made Plato undeniable

>>15818725
Whatever. Good luck on being saved based on the readings of Gerson

>>15818713
>>15818725
Plato and Plotinus are the stem (not roots) of all philosophy, all philosophy is platonism.
What we've had the past 1300 years is no different to the period of the middle platonists, just like Plotinus revived true philosophy, so Gerson now has. Death and revival is at the core of truth, unlike Christianity where death is to be abhorred and permanently ceased to be a reality once "christ returns".

>>15818515
as I said: basics, introduction, when referring to guénon, which was wrong about many other things but could provide the introductory knowledge you lack.

>fathers destroyed everything!
if it is lost it means it was willingly destroyed, if it was preserved it was so thanks to Priapus. but there were not christian writings lost and christians didn't dedicate their whole lives in monasteries copying and translating and preserving all kinds of writings they had, found and received?

roman mythraism was one of the most syncretic cult of worship at the time. but if it is greco-roman it has historical legitimacy, if christian it is theft.

>small over-hyped selection of truths.
yeah i wonder why christianity dialogues (and comprehends) deeply with egyptian, platonist, islamic, hermetic, gnostic, buddhist, daoist and some aspects and darshanas of hinduism too.

>>15818814
>Death and revival is at the core of truth, unlike Christianity where death is to be abhorred and permanently ceased to be a reality once "christ returns".
Dear God, just shut the fuck up you utter imbecile. This only proves you have never in your wasted life touched on a single christian writing. The very core of our fallen ontology is death as a blessing. Someone lacking this basic of an idea in Christianity might have no idea how common saints contemplating death in paintings is. You are proud of being an idiot.

>I'm so glad I accepted the Shahadah on my death bed, too bad for those poor Kuffar in hell though...

>>15818860
Death did not exist before the fall and will no exist in the reconstitution.

>>15818878
>>15818860
if it isn't orthodox/catholic dogma it isn't a christian idea

>>15818814
>Gerson is the next Plotinus
Lmao. Its like protestant neoplatonism: tradition was revived centuries later by a modern man (an academic). Even Gerson would laugh at this cult you are making around him --- Gerson who even wrote on "the philosophy" of Epicurus lmao

>>15818878
I think you misunderstood me.
>after the fall it is better that man dies, that is, to be excluded from the tree of life, than this fallen state be made eternal.

>>15818926
yes, and what I have heard from his takes he got some things wrongly.

>>15818926
Gerson has written on every school of Greek thought. Do I have to quote him?
Also "Gerson who even wrote on "the philosophy" of Epicurus", oh you mean exactly like how Plotinus wrote on Epicureans, stoics, gnostics, middle platonists, egyptian myth, greek myth,...
Plotinus would also do what you say Gerson would do, this is called humility.

Book of Job clearly shows that it may be not different even if you are extremely pious.

>>15819008
cont...
>evinced by Galen Strawson at those who, committed to natural science, feel they must deny the existence of consciousness and attendant mental states. I disagree with him, though, in holding that the correct approach is not to turn to the intelligible world but to take a more capacious attitude toward Naturalism. Anaxagoras provided unsatisfactory accounts of phenomena in the sensible world not because he embraced an outmoded theory of homoiomeres rather than quantum mechanics, molecular biology, and neuroscience, but because he assumed that the satisfactory account must limit itself to the sensible world.
Finally, I would like to suggest that the present work, to the extent that its argument is persuasive at all, implicitly provides a sketch of a new pedagogical approach to the history of philosophy. Instead of the current approach, which is that of stringing together an array of loosely connected vignettes—if it is November, we must be on the Empiricists—we see the history of philosophy as the development of Platonism (with a few interesting outliers), followed in the seventeenth century by the beginning of efforts to fi nd some common ground between Platonism and Naturalism, followed in the eighteenth century and then ever after, by the growing dominance of Naturalism, making sporadic and often arbitrary accommodations with Platonism. If the two poles are well articulated, that is, Platonism and antiPlatonism or Naturalism and anti-Naturalism, the history of philosophy can be seen as comprised of uncompromising defenses of each position along with the much more common attempts of one side to make strategic concessions to the other. At the least, such an approach seems to me to leave the student with a much clearer and more accurate grasp of the terrain called “philosophy” than she would otherwise be expected to have, and also, no doubt, a richer appreciation of what is at stake in this dispute.

>>15818864
absolutely based and halal

>>15814368
Well, I wasn't expecting that kind of answer but I approve it.

>>15816851
>there are broad-strokes similarities in religious rite, that means Christianity is unoriginal
Will you shut the fuck up for thirty seconds you nu-atheist faggot? This angle didn't work for 1,900 years, and it won't work pouring out of your fat, stupid mouth now.

>>15813299
They aren't tortured for eternity, they're dumped into a senseless, dreamless holding pattern until Judgement Day, after which point they're deleted if evil.

>>15820453
Egyptian cosmography depicts the course of the Sun (Ra) using sacramental interpretation of this both cosmogonical and cultic process. Therefore the temple ritual (which follows archetypal patterns of the solar circuit and rebirth) brings the divine effects down to earth: the god descends (hai) on his image (sekhem), comes as a spirit (akh) to unite with his form in his sanctuary "with glittering feathers and the bau of the gods with him". During the ritual called "uniting with the Sun" (henem aten), the divine substance unites with the material receptacle, or image. Likewise the purified human being becomes a vessel of sacred energies and is united with the Sun, or Intellect.
If existence is an expression of Being, that is, manifestation of intelligible light and sound, produced by the creative utterance of Atum, which includes the all-pervasive power of Heka, then, as a result, everything is more or less divine. Therefore to contemplate the sacred (constantly revealed and confirmed by rituals) "means to perceive symbols, archetypes and essences in sensible things, for the beauties perceived by an interiorized soul become factors of interiorization".
Contrary to the "opaque" perspective of contemporary empiricism, those events that the modem man would regard as "inner" psychic or spiritual events, are experienced as "outer" events by the ancients. therefore J. Naydler, perhaps partly following H. Corbin, coined the terrm a "public imagination" --- a public inner life experienced as an objective vision. He argues, concerning Ancien Egyptian times:
"This means that the experience of what was 'real' and what was 'not real' was different from our experience. The outer and the inner worlds were not so strictly partitioned, and as a result, the experience of the physical was much richer --- it was infused with inner, spiritual qualities that today we would prefer to regard as subjective projections. At me same time, their experience of the spiritual was much more concrete. much more 'objective', by which terrm we should understand 'shared"'.
Cultic activities are regarded as a response to ever-present divinity and a genuine encounter with its manifestations in the specific form of their theurgic indwelling. If the liturgy is suspended, the divine powers may withdraw, leaving behind only the inanimate material receptacle.

>>15815364
>Christianity is a pagan religion. It doesn't matter whether it's pagan with flavors of compassion.
I ALREADY FUCKING EXPLAINED THIS. WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ISN'T "IT'S PAGAN", YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST BE SAYING "IT'S A RELIGION" YOU FUCKING RETARD.

>There is nothing differentiating modern Christian practice from exactly what Hellenism would have looked like if the monotheistic shift towards Jove as a single deity had actually happened, barring a few "Judaic" toppings on this thoroughly Roman pizza of a fucking religion.
You're literally a nigger, if you're intelligence runs at this level. Stop LARPing and actually read the fucking the New Testament. It's the type of retardation you can't argue with, we've all experienced it.

>>15816437
>It is a fundamentally pagan idea and has little to do with any kind of real and substantial Christian philosophy, which is why the idea has been abandoned by almost all Christians
Again, stop LARPing this is just a complete lie what are you talking about? You're so cringe you continue to insult Christianity while acting like a dumb teenager "but am not actually saying it's bad just facts lol".

The concept of hell truly exposes Abrahamism for what it is, the foundation for cult thinking

>infinite punishment for finite transgressions
nice demiurge worship you got going on there

>>15821047
as if other traditions also didn't have the same concept of damnation

>>15821051
you don't mix the unholy with the holy

>>15821085
>>you don't mix the unholy with the holy
>Christians claim God descended and gave himself a human nature

>>15821123
>human nature is unholy
think again. God becoming man does not violate the principle of remaining holy.

>>15821136
Christians claim Jesus took on sin you idiot. His divine nature rested in a sinful body.
>you don't mix the unholy with the holy
The Bible claims God did it himself lmao

>>15821148
>Christians claim Jesus took on sin you idiot. His divine nature rested in a sinful body.
stop lying. God created mankind and saw it was good. no christian ever claim jesus had a sinful body or that humanity is intrinsically sinful

>>15821163
>Jesus never took on the sin of the world
k

>>15821175
he took the sins of the world on the cross not in the incarnation

>>15821186
>Jesus wasn't human on the cross
k

>>15821163
What about Kenosis? I think that's a pretty solid theory.

>>15821203
>>15821175
>>15821123
no use talking with PROTS

>>15813975
>>But just as cosmic religion feels after God through hierophanies and is degraded in idolatry when it sees the sun or a tree as God, so the danger of mysticism is that of divinizing the spirit of man himself, of identifying the noêton with the theion, as Plotinus and Buddha did, and of thus abandoning the cruder material idols, only to be enslaved by that more subtle idol which is the spirit of man himself.

I realize that Catholics and reading are blood enemies, never mind lumping the Reason of Plotinus with the rhetoric of the Buddha, but calling them Pantheist - a Semiotic catastrophe; but whence the conflation of idolatry with Selfhood?

>>15814285

How would tradition decide if not literally?

>>15821670
again literally does not exist, there's no objective interpretation of anything

>>15821739
>catholics reveal themselves to be the most world-skeptical people AGAIN despite claiming the exact opposite and imputing their intellectual bankruptcy to "gnostics"

Like clockwork.

>>15821777
Who the fuck you calling a prot?
The only way to have a world to critique and not just an indefinite mush of subjectivity is with a top-down projection of objectivity onto the world. Go and be a retarded Naive realist somewhere else

>>15821085
>as if other traditions also didn't have the same concept of damnation
They don't, outside of Abrahamic religions any sort of hellish realm is typically just a temporary state that one leaves after an appropriate time

>>15813299
>why do so many christians seem to enjoy the idea of other people being tortured for eternity?

Why do so many 'normal' people living right now enjoy the idea of a person going to prison for a ridiculously long time, getting mentally and physically abused, and laughing at the idea that someone might get sodomised as well?

>>15822638
not true. tartarus wasn't temporary and the egyptian netherworld was only temporary due to the annihilation of the soul after the punishment, there was no people leaving it (unless you consider annihilation a way of leaving)

>>15822741
are you saying christians are sadic for warning about hell fire? where is the sadism, the pleasure? strawman. talking about hell has solely the purpose of warning so that people dont end in it

the selfish contemporary nu-man feels threatened, a victim of injustice by hearing about hell. it is inconceivable to him.
>nooo how dare you
when hell is simply a matter of reality, like an equation. no amount of shitposting will deny it

>>15822794
how can something real not have a single grain of evidence

>>15822878
Because it makes him feel better. See
>the selfish contemporary nu-man feels threatened, a victim of injustice by hearing about hell. it is inconceivable to him.
>>nooo how dare you

>>15814119
>Look, it doesn't actually matter whether all life was destroyed and enough water to fill the Pacific ocean a dozen times over materialized from nowhere. What's important is the symbolism!
Nigga you can talk symbology all you want but you're not gonna go far without acknowledging the elephant in the room that everything you've got starts with "Well, a bunch of magic shit MIGHT have happened, but in case it didn't it's actually a metaphor for..."

>>15813538
>after you die you cannot undo your actions
lol how do YOU know, huh? you ever died before?

>>15823066
there was no difference for the ancients between the concrete and the symbolic, both were real because there is nothing but signs, the signs here below are in parallel to the signs above, there is no incongruence

>>15823095
You're using spooky language to obfuscate you have nothing useful to say. Megaliters of water did not fall from space only for it to fly away a month later. This makes it a fictional story, and whether or not this story is fiction is the furthest fucking thing from "irrelevant" when discussing whether it can be categorized as fiction.

>>15823185
>spooky language
oh christ

i can't even recommend works of ancient metaphysicians for you, try reading some semiology, there is no point discussing it with you at this point, don't know if you can rectify such mental deformities, i hope you can. good luck

I decided that christianity is inhuman and wrong. That's why I decided to start my own brand of religion, one in which I am a God and everyone who refuses to recognize me as such is going to burn in hell for all eternity.

Enjoy being ashes, christcucks

the selfish contemporary nu-man feels threatened, a victim of injustice by hearing about non existence of God. it is inconceivable to him.
>nooo how dare you
when god being a lie is simply a matter of reality, like an equation. no amount of shitposting will deny it

>>15823247
>How am I supposed to come to terms if you don't already agree with me?
brainletism

>>15820470
What justifies your belief in this really specific process about the afterlife and eschatology? HRT?

>>15813299
semitic spiritual poison

>>15814368
THIS

>>15814368
>don't worship desert jewsih "god"
>go to hell
christcuckery is sick

>>15823723
aren't you tired of crying about christianity

gloating about people burning in hell is very unchristian. jesus would be ashamed of most of the tradcath larpers shitting up this board
do not reply to this post unless you have read the gospels of matthew, mark, luke, and john.

>>15823588
I told you how ancients understood sacred writings and myths, whatever i tell you about signs, symbols, forms you’ll refuse to understand accusing me of employing “spooky languge”. To be honest i dont care if someone like you will keep wallowing in ignorance, it is better to maintain these people in far away in direct opposition

>>15823689
Show me a single religion or tradition that doesnt have suffering as resulting from ignorance and disharmony with their truths?

>>15823831
yes. that's precisely why people must abandon false beliefs such as those from shankara and plotinus

>>15823831
>>15823868
Reminder that even in Old Testament (wherein the numinous has the aspect of tremendum and majestas emphasized) God is referred as loving and caring. People here complaining are just redditors with no rigorous study on religions.

>>15823912
yet there is the 1st commandment and to not keep it is more offensive than gloating at people in hell. a uncharitable christian is still better than a person who rejects Him

>>15823926
Yes, I think what Augustine wrote about massa damnata makes it easy to understand this point of view too

>>15823926
yeah but it's unchristian and silly to circlejerk and take pleasure in other's damnation. go do some good works if you're so christian, share your faith in a positive way. go pick up trash at a park, or volunteer in a soup kitchen. it's more christian than winning useless theological arguments on the internet.

>>15823853
I'm not arguing that christcuckery is the only religion that has suffering as "punishment", what I'm getting at is that the rules by which it deems hell just are that of a prideful god that deems to not worship him as worse that anything.

>>15824084
i do not take pleasure in their possible suffering. i sincerely hope neoplatonists and advaitins stop identifying themselves with God for their own good. i could have elaborated more in the op but it's all in this >>15813975
>>15813988

>>15824084
''ignorance and disharmony with their truths'', also if you literally take god to be a guy between clouds in the sky, i dont think this religion thing is something for you
see this >>15823912 it might help somehow

>>15824103
mean to quote >>15824063

>>15824106
The abrahamic conception of god is very demiurgic despite of theologians' efforts to merge it with platonic universal conceptions of god.

>>15824084
to not love Love, the Perfect Being, the Source of all Good, is indeed wicked --- could you say it isn? there is nothing about pride. God doesn't need us for anything, the first commandment is for our own good

>>15823912
Words are just vain breath, anybody can say whatever they want about themselves, Ye shall know them by their fruits. And in the first few pages of the Bible, Yahweh builds a product that fails to meet specifications, rather then blaming his own shoddy workmanship, Yahweh blames his creation for failing to exceed the fundamental limits of it's design. Then he goes on to kill more people then any human ever has. Then, once he's done, he realises that he's failed to accomplish anything and repents.

>>15824084
also it is ironic that you take conclusions from your own sentimental response to sacred writings because of an exoteric aspect of the religious, you are the proud accusing of pride

>>15824106
My problem is with those truths not with the fact that a religion has suffering as resulting from ignorance and disharmony with its truths, as you put it.

>>15824084
>>15824145
the only reason you, a fedora, exists is that God's love made you out of nothing and sustains you even now. it is absolutely wicked that you do not love Him who is Holy and the source of all Good. the moment you see Him as a proud anthropomorphic being you are speaking out of utter ignorance

>>15814368
Wrong, it's a sign of mental illness. The only "satisfaction" you should get from seeing justice enacted is the new peace of mind from having dangerous elements (hopefully) removed from the community. Anything more and it's just sadism, which is the by far the most widespread mental illness among our species, yet it goes completely undiagnosed.

>>15824150
I'd agree if you were identifying the source of all good with the origin of that conception of god, Plato's. But I don't see the source of all good in the prideful god of the jews.

>>15824157
>>15824145
the fall and all its consequences are on man's back. im at work right now, but this is so simple. you are grounded on literality, as you said ''words are just vain breath'', behind the words there is the Word in scripture. this mentality is exactly like this one >>15823066.
there is no way to approach ANY sacred text in this way. aspects of the numinous vary according to the receptive consciousness (perfect analogy to the many layers of reading a sacred writing).

>>15824170
what truths? transcendental being? personal god? developed metaphysics? they are not in accord with the truths of other religions theoretically?

>>15824208
highly possible the greeks were influenced (even if indirectly) by God's revelation to the people of israel. very likely greeks got from the persians who had cyrus the great as God's instrument. point is the greeks did not come with their metaphysical discourses on their own
>prideful god of the jews.
nonsense

>>15813605
You are the real retard, hylic boy! Fuck back to plebit, please

>>15824241
>the fall and all its consequences are on man's back.
God designed man, and thus, he made an inferior product, so it's his fault. Have you ever read "Hymn to Breaking Strain" by Kipling? It expresses this line of thought beautifully. I could ignore everything the Bible says and come up with my own ideas and then twist the words to fit my opinions, but I won't, if the people who worshipped Yahweh wanted me to do that, they would have never written it down. It's possible Yahweh exists and it's possible he created me, I'm not stubborn enough to deny that. But if he exists, it is simply not possible that he's "All-loving", he's considerably less loving then the average human, in fact.

the christian revelation is the highest, the most complete --- no other come close. not only God incarnates but He teaches us through His sacrifice the example to the mystery of existence and His unconditional love. Jesus fulfilled the law that fulfilled the pre-mosaic traditions. you do not have to rely to abstract metaphysical axioms, He entered history.

>All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them

>>15824347
>revelation

A collection of writings is not a revelation, Jesus' disciples (if they and he existed) had a revelation. All we have is a handful of anonymous documents of highly-questionable veracity.

>>15824385
>(if they and he existed)
>All we have is a handful of anonymous documents of highly-questionable veracity.
the gospels are the historical records of the christian revelation and they are valid even by historiographic criteria.
>doubting even st. peter and st. paul
>st. john whose disciple st polycarp confirmed his gospel
>st clement of rome who was the third after st. peter was a disciple of st paul and knew st peter
>st ignatius of antioch knew st john

ah yes it was all a big hoax campaign spanning more than 3 generations for the posteriority

>>15824493
It's not a hoax anymore then any other mythology is a hoax. All of the followers genuinely believed it happened. But none of the New Testament was written by eyewitnesses, it was all written by believers after the fact. But that's not the real point anyway, the point is that revelation cannot be had through writings, it can only be had first hand. If Ezekiel was a real person, then he saw angels come down from Yahweh's kingdom and he looked up and saw the throne of Yahweh. we didn't, All we have is a book which claims to be written by Ezekiel and which purports to be an accurate description of what he saw. That's not a revelation, that's a description of somebody else's revelation, which may or may not be genuine.

>implying you autistic niggers don't deserve to burn in hell

>>15824318
>God designed man, and thus, he made an inferior product, so it's his fault.
here we go again. i have discussed it with gnsotics in this board so many times. it's weary at this point. no matter what i say you simply just don't care.
divine freedom is accomplished with this supreme risk: another freedom. literally, just read anything from the fathers on creation.

>bible
the religious consciousness under the exoteric signs in the bible is pretty much common to the one in all other near eastern religions, this consciousness is developed in the ot and has an evident change in nt. again, read a fucking book on the subject you have no knowledge before posting about it

>But if he exists, it is simply not possible that he's "All-loving"
again it refers to what i said about the development of the numinous consciousness.

dude, just read a book on the subject you are discussing

>>15824721
If you're claiming that there's some kind of mystical subtext to this book that can only be understood through alternate states of consciousness, then I can't argue against that. But I really don't think that was the intention of the men who wrote it, but I suppose that's a whole "Death of the Author" thing. But if Yahweh is some far-out being that operates on a completely different system of mortality then humans, then we shouldn't be using anthropomorphic language to describe him, it's confusing.

>>15824798
>If you're claiming that there's some kind of mystical subtext to this book that can only be understood through alternate states of consciousness
no

>But I really don't think that was the intention of the men who wrote it, but I suppose that's a whole.
it was consciously crafted like any other sacred writing, no wonder these texts are deeply analysed worldwide for thousands of years and still they are not exhausted.

>But if Yahweh is some far-out being that operates on a completely different system of mortality then humans, then we shouldn't be using anthropomorphic language to describe him, it's confusing.
i'll tell you again, read a book. you have no idea what youre talking about

>>15825065
My problem is I don't understand one of the terms you are using. When you mentioned "religious consciousness" before, I assume you were talking about some state of altered consciousness, religious ecstasy or something similar. But It appears I was mistaken. What do you mean then when you say the bible was crafted "consciously"? Do mean "intentionally"?

>>15814440
>The flood was most likely a real event, happening in Mesopotamia.
if it was just a local flood than god lied when he promised he would never do a flood like that again since local flooding still happens

>>15813299
Islam obsesses about hell far more than Christianity. Christianity is just more vocal about it on english speaking websites.

>>15813299
They are meek and passive their whole life, so they cope by imagining all the strong and able people they secretly envy being punished in the afterlife.

>>15825142
the religious consciousness is consciousness of the non-rational kernel of all religions, god, ultimate reality. this is the ground of religions and our reality. this consciousness is developed and refined, it goes from a feeling of impotence in face of the divinity, of fear of its inestimable power to a wholly transcendental and all comprehensive.
the bible and other sacred texts were translations of this consciousness and feelings analogous to it, literal revelations from a Wholly Other. they were composed knowing they were doing translations of these experiences.

>>15823837
>Whether or not a thing actually happened doesn't matter because of blah blah blah esoteric blah blah blah symbolism blah blah blah sacred writings

this thread has made so glad that I gave up religion a long time ago, thanks guys

>>15813288
>plotinus and shankara
plotinus is closest to vishishtadvaita not fucking shankara

>>15814522
>Besides, this cosmic revelation, of which the pagan religions are defective signs, is in every way an imperfect, incomplete revelation. Mosaic revelation and Christian revelation infinitely surpass it.
source: my opinion

is everyone on this board below 18?

>>15821186
yeah i remember my pastor telling us how jesus actually set the sins down on the top part of the cross and balanced them there, and had gloves on the whole time

>>15822767
>where is the sadism, the pleasure?
>>15814368

>>15826900
Religion never goes away. You just switched gods

>>15816456
Wtf is that comic

>>15828530
The Christian main idea, but with a sci-fi flavour.

>>15813555
Brahman can manifest itself as having a personality, retard

>>15828530
>>15828883
>only 80 years

this comic is depicts a hell which is literally infinitely more merciful than what gentle jesus meek and mild has spun up for his loving children

>>15823673
Read the Bible and find me an instance of Christ talking about fire as lasting torment rather than as destructive force, faggot.
Fear he who can destroy both body and soul.

>>15819033
the most brainlet take on Job

>>15828966
Well, Job gets his property back and is even allowed to birth more children, but nowhere it is stated that everyone will get the same treatment.

>>15829090
>and is even allowed to birth more children

this is how abrahamics speak.

>>15829131
Hark at the godless heathen who thinks human life has value and people aren't interchangeable.

>>15829131
>le abrahamics meme
I understand why the sandfolk behead you people.