/lit/ - Literature

no more books... you need praxis son

>>15750369
Some tankie propaganda full of lies and self complacency who calls everyone genocidal Nazis if they refuse to lick le great comrade Stalin's boots

>>15750369
the guy's dad would probably win tbdesu

living in a communist country>>>>any "academic" source

>>15750369
Dads with kids who respect their opinions are in a better place to know what's good for the country than academic 5`7 four-eyes who don't play sports.

>>15750369
liberals destroyed or something who cares

>>15750369
They both would win because they both agree that communism doesn't work. Labor theory of value being retarded and unpractical and just the sheer amount of historical examples of socialism/communism failing are enough to prove that.

>>15750369
Ah yes, physical chemistry is my favorite source for proving communism works.

Also I think that's Dante's Divine Comedy second from the top.

>>15750448
>Ah yes, physical chemistry is my favorite source for proving communism works.
yeah? it's scientific socialism

>>15750401
I agree we should never question the lived experiences of marginalized folx who've had to struggle their entire lives against these brutal systems of oppression.

>>15750495
How is is falsifiable?

>>15750369
why white people think communism good?

>>15750448
>>15750495
>Why yes, I do subscribe to Lysenkoism and other Soviet superscience, how could you tell?

>>15750508
Makes you feel good an smart without actually doing much. Basically secular heaven

>>15750369
Defending full communism is difficult and is not an easy task due to its speculative nature. Defend socialism instead, anyone that tells you labor theory is BS is full of shit. And the fact that capitalists (liberals and Conservatives alike) demonize socialism as one of their core values should tell you what you should be defending instead.

>>15750369
Reminder Einstein was a socialist. Socialism is literally the high IQ ideology

One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich is a good start

>>15750703
National socialism is the high IQ ideology- socialism is the ideology of the well-intentioned but rootless academic.

>>15750369
>my ideology is so good that it’s two definitions give either of these outcomes:
>my ideology has never succeeded because it is literally impossible on large scales due to human nature
Or
>my ideology is so great that many people dangerously risked their lives in order to escape it for capitalism
I’m not a capitalist or liberal in ideology but it isn’t hard to see communist flaws purely on precedent, though socialism’s is not completely flawed in ethnically and culturally homogenous societies, as homogeneous reduces human competition through the prevalence of kin altruism, but even here the bureaucracy is greatly vulnerable to corruption as seen by example.
>>15750703
EinSTEIN was also something else, which may explain some connection

>>15750369
The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith. He directly addresses the fact that capitalism and the state disenfranchise the poor and those without property and are protect the rich and those with property

>>15750731
Yeah the high IQ national socialists who got into a war with the UK, USA & USSR at the same time...

>>15750571
Is Lysenkoism compatible with critical theory and intersectionality?

>>15750731
this is true provided you mean a theoretical fusion of nationalism and socialism, as in national bolsheviks or possibly even Xi Jinping. However, the German NSDAP of the 30s and early 40s was over-zealously and unstably militaristic (not that a strong military is bad but provoking war with as many countries as the third reich did was a terrible idea), along with being led by a group of drug-addled autistic cultists.

>>15750731
Daily reminder, the thousand year reich lasted 12 years! National socialism is for the birds, but socialism is cool and good,

>>15750760
Critical theory and intersectionality isn’t compatible at all with Darwinian evolution of any variety, despite the absence of modern progressives who don’t like both

>>15750798
How do you figure that?

Go live in a communist shit hole first.

>>15750571
*starves after replacing genetics with voodoo*
it wasn't.....real.....communism

>>15750820
*complains that globohomo monopoly has killed all culture and traditional values and reduces the human spirit to a bottom-feeder consumer*
It's not REAL capitalism, REAL capitalism has NO flaws.

>>15750795
If time is what dictates merit then socialism is wrong and you must submit your bussy to liberalism.

>Hmm how I push my communist ideals and finally make our single clearcut vision a reality?
>I know! Let’s overdose on IDPOL and make this a gay black trans poc bipoc LGBTQIAM+ mosh pit where no substantial work is ever accomplished and you’ll be sent to the gulags if you misgender me uwu spank me daddy Stalin oWo
Tankies are the gift that keeps on giving. Republicans are retards, sure, but they’re unified retards.
Don’t worry, I’m sure Bernie will win next time!!

>>15750835
It literally isn't thought
Mixed economies =/= Capitalism

>>15750813
Darwinian evolution is highly expressive of the differences of organisms, within and between groups some are superior to others in a given environment and so succeed, others fail. More importantly it rejects the idea of a species as being non-arbitrary (species as a real unit of biology only truly works under creationism), Darwin considered the species concepts useful to make biological work practical (This is still something that biology students have to learn at university, the complexity that leads to impracticality without compromise), but that any point of differentiation of species is arbitrary due to the extremely gradual nature of change, obviously this makes the title of Darwin’s most famous work quite ironic (as modern biologists such as E.O. Wilson comment on in their own works), but I believe that was intentional, Darwin himself was more than just a scientist, he had a touch of the poet to him as anyone who has read otOoS can tell you. This obviously challenges the notion central to the humanistic and liberal principles on which intersectionality is founded, that humans are all the same despite differences (as by that logic we could extend it to all life on Earth which shares common ancestry, making it at least all plants animals and fungi, probably prokaryotes as well), and that these differences should be supported, when they would generate conflict.
Extrapolating out from Darwinism to politics, interracial differences would bring about instability from competition within a society, this is not only theoretically true but also demonstrable in the modern world, now more than ever.
I want a photo to make people more interested in this long post so here’s a photo of a Raccoon, my favourite (Non-human) animal because if it’s display of how greatly humans affect the biosphere, in more complex ways than pure negativity.

>"communism"

>>15750757
"If he was so smart why is he dead"-tier reasoning, you triple-retard.

>>15750922
>mixed economies are the reason that globohomo monopolization and the erosion of culture is happening, if only we could have pure, unregluated capitalism, the wealthiest 0.001% would surely not allow for this
The only thing gayer than capitalism is communism, and the only thing gayer than both combined is the inability to imagine another economic system.

>>15750571
wtf? that guy actually owns shirts?

Stop falling for the commie meme

>>15750748
>EinSTEIN was also something else
Of above average intelligence? Most people with names like that are.

>>15750369
defend the praxis nigga

>>15750571
Extremely based

>>15750798
>Critical theory and intersectionality isn’t compatible at all with Darwinian evolution of any variety
Critical theory is totally compatible with Darwinian evolution. Critical theory is a method and can be used to critique liberal society as well like Christopher Lasch did.

>>15750401
You lived under state capitalism at best.

>>15750731
National "socialism" is why he had to flee Europe, shitcocker.

>>15750709
I, too, listen to Jordan Peterson

>>15751445
Yes, sorry, i was directly responding to that post referencing the combined use with intersectionality. I should have clarified better what I meant, I’m glad you clarified because I should’ve included that distinction in my post.

>>15751481
“Real” communism will never come into being because it is in direct conflict with human nature and the process of life itself, unless you made the humans of the society you wanted to turn communist into a eusocial superorganism (called hivemind by genre-fiction readers), which is incompatible with our complex individual physiologies.
You need to either admit the crimes of the quasi-communist societies that have existed (because many of those faults arise recurrently in different communist countries, demonstrating a series of systemic issues), or you can admit that your “real communism” is so horrifically unfeasible as to be idiotic for children, plausible only in science fiction and fantasy stories.

>>15750849
Cuba, baby!

>>15750369
My dad actually lived through it so yes I'd rather trust him over some LARPing American rat.

here's one that might help your dad understand how capitalism is holding you back from getting a real job

>>15751966
here's another classic

>>15751966
>>15751983
If famines are an acceptable reason for condemning an ideology then we should also seriously consider demolishing statues of Churchill and reexamining capitalism and colonialism.

>>15752086
remember the 100,000,000 you fucking pinko twat

>>15752086
Famines are naturally ocurring, on the other hand central retarded planning that causes famine is just communism

>>15751939
Yes and my family lived through it also and lament the collapse of the Soviet Union and look upon their years under the communist system with a fondness and nostalgia for a safer and more fulfilling age.
Judging from the picture I suspect your father was from one of the Soviet's satellite states in E. Europe, as is often the case for the boomers that complain about the Soviet system (despite them not having lived in the Soviet Union).

>>15752151
Lol every person I met who lived in the soviet union is glad its dead, quit larping. There's a reason people got rid of it- it sucked.

>>15752128
>Bengal Famine
>Naturally occurring

If beyond that, I'd wager that one ought to consider every death by inability to pay for appropriate medical care (for the mutts) and every casualty of homelessness and destitution in every capitalist system (including Africa, have fun with this one). Add on top of that the indirect deaths of poverty, although difficult to quantify, there's a very established link between lower income and increased mortality.

Suspect that number would far outweigh muh 100 million casualties of gommunism (even if you exclude Africa, which might be fair), as is always the case capitalism is far more insidious and subtle than its communist counterpart. Someone should really try to quantify this figure, write a black book of capitalism, although someone probably already has

>>15752181
Has communism gotten 2 billion people out of extreme poverty in just a century?

Marx and Lenin, Frankfurt school, idk
Theres sources suggesting communism won't work

>>15752197
Unironically yes China got 1 billion out of poverty

>>15752177
>muh personal anecdotes dictate that the majority of people share the opinion of the people I personally know
Fairly commonly accepted that the majority of Soviet citizens factually mourn its collapse, particularly with the wonders that capitalism has brought them - being oligarchy and corruption (Russia actually was deemed the most unequal country in the world according to Credit Suisse's inequality report this year I believe)


>75% of Russians say Soviet Union was the greatest time in their country's history
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/03/24/75-of-russians-say-soviet-era-was-greatest-time-in-countrys-history-poll-a69735

>65% of Russians mourn the collapse of the Soviet Union Feb. 2020 (Levada Centre - actually well-reputed polling non profit)
https://www.russiamatters.org/blog/polling-suggests-soviet-nostalgia-isnt-going-away

>>15752128
>Famines caused by England manipulating other countries for capitalism are naturally occurring and acceptable
>Famines occurring in communist countries because of central planning are genocide and justification for condemning communism
This doesn't seem like a level playing field.

>>15752177
And that's not even mentioning the 1991 Soviet Union referendum in which 78% voted that they wanted a renovated Soviet Bloc (albeit the Baltics and some other cucked countries did boycott it, fairly negligible population wise)

>>15752218
>>15752237
Holy based

Commie chads smashing reactionaries on here like it's 1945

>>15751852
>human nature
holy shit, brainlets need this word removed from their vocabulary

>>15752197
I would say the economic uplifting of backward Russia from a backward stagnant imperial power with an illiterate peasantry to a nuclear-armed superpower that propelled the first of our species outside of the planet's gravity well was far most successful than anything capitalism has achieved, and that's not even speaking of China.

In terms of proportionally (since you have a far greater population today in capitalist modernity), communist countries have probably uplifted more of their respective populations from poverty into literacy, education and material safety

Nazis, choose one:
>Jews are money hungry greedy capitalists
Or
>Jews are sneaky socialists who want the end of capitalism

>>15752237
that's just boomers supporting the status quo

The Organisation of Labor by Louis Blanc

>>15752274
Nice cope

>>15752266
>a backward stagnant imperial power
it's highly offensive the way commies always describe the based Russian Empire in this manner, they would have industrialized and been a serious power anyway without the bolshejews

>>15752266
This is one of the most retarded posts I've read lately.

>>15752211
Only by making capitalistic reforms on big cities, rural China is still poor and seems like there is no rush to improve

>>15752218
So if they miss it that much why the fuck don't they just start a referendum or another revolution?

>>15752270
>To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself—that was the ultimate subtlety

>>15750369
What kind of niggerfaggot cares about defending ideas on the internet? Why do they need defending? They are just ideas right? Do you think you'll actually cause meaningful change by reading a lot? Fuck off. I'll believe whatever the fuck I want for any reason I want. You're all niggers

>>15752236
Which famines were caused by England?
Remember they are retarded enough to still have a monarchy so I wouldn't give them much credit

>>15752270
What do National Socialists think about socialism? I dunno. They were probably neocon free trade advocates.

>>15752211
>point out human rights violations
>>iz nod real gommunism, iz state gabitalism
>people emerged from poverty
>>iz gommunism now :DDDD
China's modern structure has been termed 'authoritarian capitalism' even by left-wing social critics, and China's emergence from poverty is heavily contingent on a somewhat mixed economy. That being said the current CCP is p based,

>>15752282
At the time it was stagnant and backward, it still had an absolutist monarchy by the 20th century and the best Russian economist and hope for industrialisation (Witte) was fired by the Tsar in 1903 because his impetus of industry and the encouragement of the enterprising middle class was seen as "undermining the social order". Who's to say what the provincial government may or may not have become or achieved, nevertheless, I doubt that they could have achieved the industrialisation that the Bolsheviks did - do you see Imperial Russia, a country which had 101 roubles per capita in 1913 (compared to 463 for the UK or 355 for France) matching the Soviet's feats in Nazi defeat, launching their cosmonauts into space and launching probes to Mars and military parity with the US?
Think that's a wildly optimistic frankly

>>15752319
The potato famine in Ireland however that was also Scotland's fault as well no matter what they tell you.

>>15752291
For what reason? Feel free to form something like a structured refutation unless you don't have anything of substance to put forward

>>15752265
If you want me to be more specific it's the naturally competitive aspect of humanity and life (a primary component of evolutionary theory) that contradicts communism, as exemplified by every time it's tried leading to corruption from self-interest.
>Communist in 2020 calls people brainlet
kek
>>15752249
Some of the communists in this thread are clearly lost redditors given their unwillingness to denounce intersectionality, that is as far from chad as possible.

>>15752333
So communism good because they could launch a satellite?

>>15752302
>oh yeah bro just start another communist revolution spontaneously against the government in the modern age or vote in a referendum in a country which is internally recognised for its democratic manipulation

>>15752266
How is poverty into literacy an equivalent?
Look at Cuba, China or Vietnam they might read, as almost anyone in the XXIst century, but they're still poor and have by no means any material safety

>>15752333
They could have industrialized at their own pace without destroying their culture and killing a bunch of the peasants. fucking commiejews

>>15752368
Just another fucking dumb excuse, if they want it that much they would have gotten it even with Putin.

>>15752348
Communism has uplifted no one, but killed over a hundred million people. It's an extremely absurd claim you make that communism has done more uplifting than capitalism.

One can simply compare Eastern European countries under communist rule and after to see that you are lying.

>>15752380
Clearly not talking about modern standards of literacy, considering that the communist regime in question (Russia) achieved this effect nearly 100 years ago

>>15752421
But again, literacy is not equivalent to material safety

I wonder how many of the people itt know the difference between Socialism and Communism. Really makes one ponder. Pic unrelated.

>>15752404
>Compare Eastern European countries under communist rule (1990) to after (modern 2020?)
Even beyond the gross time difference, a 30 years opportunity for economic & GDP growth, would wager that socially Russian/Kazakhstani/etc. citizens were better off during Soviet times comparatively - for god's sake in Russia pensioners don't even get their pension checks from the government and social services are generally paper-thin. Even beyond Russia, most of the ex-Soviet countries are now kleptocracies and ran by mobs of oligarchs, it's funny and horrifying to imagine but even with this 30 year difference the average Soviet citizen still most likely had a higher quality of life than those in the modern states left in its wake.

>Communism uplifted no one
>It just killed 100 million people
I think even your most ardent anti-Communists, or even anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty for that matter, will admit that this is wrong. I'm unironically surprised that the captcha doesn't filter retards like you out before you post

>>15752382
Possibly, but I think it's safe to say they wouldn't have achieved the economic success of the Soviets, although then again, maybe it wouldn't have collapsed

>>15752485
Communism is the goal, socialism is the way. USSR claimed they were communists alredy. How the fuck are we not understanding?

>>15752497
I wonder how many of them know utopia is imaginary then.

>>15752487
Wasn't the USSR already an oligarchy, aren't the billionares of today's Russia just officials of the past?

>>15752449
the rapid education of the Russian population was just another merit for Communism in Russia in early-mid 20th century. In terms of material safety I think that the Soviet Union absolutely can be lauded for its success, by 1950 it guaranteed every citizen a home (was in the Soviet constitution funnily enough, they declared homelessness illegal and promised every of its citizens a permanent home), free education (including higher education), free healthcare (which was also in quite high regard for its standards until the general decline of the 1980s onwards) and safe to say there was little risk of unemployment or destitution - if any at all. I would call that material safety, especially comparing it to the capitalist societies of its time, wouldn't you?

Thanks for the tips everybody, I am going to smash the fascists with my uni Marxist Society at the big debate with all the hot intellectual ammunition you guys (gender neutral) have provided me here.

>>15752540
you can smash my face if you would like, ill provide a hammer, and a tarp to lay underneath me to protect your floorboards

>>15752518
The USSR was a bureaucracy, essentially what happened towards the end is those with political power (KGB chiefs, those with political power, members of economic/enterprise planning boards) were able to devaluate the official estimations of the value of parts of the economy - leading to these guys and their chums purchasing whole industries, oilfields and lands for negligible sums. They essentially were able to transfer their significant political power for capital which led to this rampant selfish money grabbing in the Soviet Union's twilight days (partly enabled because Gorbachev surrendered the control of the economy from the Party to the individual "enterprises" and economic units to foster "capitalist innovation" and reduce the oversight of Moscow

>>15752539
All of those were only provided to the people that lived on cities. Rural or even small towns were places forgotten by their goverment since they were old institutions. When it's communism, it's always nice when you refer to the cities but you forget that almost every communist country it's composed of rural towns.

>>15750401
100%. For example, I live in a liberal capitalist country, so I'm automatically an expert on Locke, Montesquieu, Smith, Ricardo, Kaynes, Hayek and so on, and my experience here has been mildly negative, so I can accurately say they're all wrong and that this system doesn't work at all and should never be tried.

And every time some "intellectual" tries to give "complex" "historical, economic and political" "reasons" for why the system isn't necessarily as good in its current implementation as it can be in the future or under different circumstances, I just roll my eyes, because I was born here so I know more than he does. To say I don't would be to imply that the average citizen of a place might be politically illiterate and not know anything about these subjects, to the point where they're susceptible to making faulty judgements about the real sources of their hardship and the problems of their country, and lol can you just imagine if that were the case.

>>15752580
Every goverment is a bureaucracy. And if those officials rushed over to buy the industries of the state, doesn't that mean that they were already rich by the time they bought them?

>>15752497
I don't believe the Soviets actually ever announced they had achieved communism. The closest I've heard is that Khrushchev announced that he was confident they would achieve the ideal by the 1970s, although I don't think this was ever officially affirmed or claimed at all

>>15751983
That book is a complete fucking meme.

>>15752607
Yes but the individuals of this bureaucracy literally were on boards which decided how much an entire segment of the economy was officially valued - in no other political system do the "bureaucrats" wield such absolute control. They weren't materially wealthy, they were afforded perks such as state cars, larger apartments in better-suited locations etc. They were able to buy industries of the state because they had the inside-knowledge of the state's impending dissolution and the ability to reduce the price of the assets and to place bids to buy them very quickly. By the reduction in price I mean the extent to which entire segments of the Russian oil industry and Soviet oil fields were re-evaluated at hundreds of roubles and then successively purchased by private bidders

>>15750369
Read this first OP.

>>15752487
>it was really good up minus the hundred million dead and the fact that it collapsed on itself
Wow, really great.

Klepotocracy and oligarchy came as a result of your incredibly good communist system collapsing leaving a power vacuum.

Communism led to 100 million dead, and god knows how many left in utter despair, and you have audacity not only to call it a success, but more a success than capitalism?

>>15752388
What do you think the population should do, simultaneously march on St Petersburg and Moscow (while being unarmed, this isn't Murcia) and do what, zerg rush the state's modern military and declare a new socialist regime? Revolutions don't happen in the modern age, especially not violent ones (in any developed country that is). And the democratic route isn't exactly wide open in Russia for initiating political change

>>15752218
Is that why the Soviet Union collapsed, especially soon after glasnot showed how corrupt the soviet government was? If you want some articles I can gladly post the3 human rights violations and crimes against its own citizenry committed by the Soviets.

>>15751783
I read it for a university class you crybaby tankie

>>15752237
>cucked countries

cuck is meaningless drivel used by people who don't have an argument. Is that why they seceded from the union after a failed coup by hardline socialists? Do people fondly remember the days when nobody was in control and their government couldn't keep otself together?

>>15752368
>oh yeah bro just start another communist revolution against the government

you don't know what revolution means do you? Did you expect the government to help you? Did the tsar help the last one?

>>15752487
>I can't refute you so I'm just gonna say you don't have intellectual honesty

Debating with communists is too easy

>>15752686
Figure was at most 20mn of the Stalinist era, not 100mn. Collapsed on itself due to Gorbachev's attempt to force capitalism a free market onto the Soviet economy and releasing the party's political control, a poor mimicry of western society which, combined with the deteriorating economic situation and nationalism, lead to a Soviet exodus.

The blame for the subsequent collapse and power vacuum should be attributed to Gorbachev, I struggle to see how you blame the collapse brought about by the catastrophic and fatal reforms of a Gorbachev onto the entire ideology. If anything, the continued existence of the kleptocracy and oligarchy speaks more to the weaknesses of post-Soviet capitalist democracy

In terms of the improvement of people's lives and the acceleration of the status of the nation as a whole it was undoubtedly more successful than capitalism in this regard - something about the centralisation and coordinated directive of the state with the chaotic forces of the free market had not been able to replicate
I feel you are arguing from a distinctly emotional position, I gather (particularly from your outraged and offended tone and blind praising of capitalism - which is humorous considering the socio-economic state of America) you're some kind of American 'patriot'? I always notice a markable shift post-midnight (Anglo here) and a decline in the quality of discussion on lit

>>15752644
>they weren't materially wealthy, they just had a lot of material wealth

>>15752737
Don't fool yourself, it collapsed due to economic concerns, although the revelations of Glasnost particularly the immorality of Stalin/Lenin's systems did damage the system's legitimacy, the country collapsed for economic factors, particularly the collapse of the Soviet economy due to the reforms of Perestroika and the shortages of common items and foodstuffs that ensued.

Most importantly the country collapsed, not because of popular demand (as the referendum shows), but due to the vying interests of the national governments who were given greater autonomy from Moscow with Glasnost, who subsequently jumped ship, abandoned the Communist goal and in lieu established kleptocracies and oligarchies - purely driven by the self-interests of individuals, facilitated by the worsening economic/political situation

>>15752814
>only 20 million
>all the problems that existed since Stalin were Gorbachev's fault
>In terms of the improvement of people's lives and the acceleration of the status of the nation it was more succcessful, which is why they had purges and gulags and consistently lagged behind in standars of living with the US- something about how giving corrupt officials absolute power that the US cant replicate

lol

>>15750369
Let's see, a bunch of academicians who teach a bunch of Marxist theory to impressionable youth and won't tolerate dissenting opinions on penalty of GPA garnishment, or someone who has second or third-hand experience on what actually happened? I'm going with the latter.

>>15752793
Violent revolutions are not possible in modern industrialised nations, what do you think this is, Uganda? Drastically different circumstances from 1915 to 2020

>>15752801
It's just incorrect to say that Soviet communism did not uplift the depraved Russian peasantry and the medieval agrarian economy of its predecessor, I'm not just calling you intellectually dishonest because your argument is made of any substance - the exact opposite

>>15750417
Not at all. Those dads who obsess over sports and get all their opinions from Rush Limbaugh don't understand anything about the world. I'll take the academic's opinions every time.

>>15750369
>academic sources

>>15750369
gb2 Reddit

>>15752818
>comparing a state car and slightly better apartment location/size to the material wealth of the equivalent elite in capitalist societies
There's a different between having an extra bedroom and living closer to centre of government in Moscow or having a driver to get you to your appointments swiftly to being owning a mansion as well as millions of dollars

>>15750369

>>15750369

What is it with commoids that their brains are so full of SHIT and PISS and CUM?

>>15752879
JBP BTFO

>>15752777
Trips of truth

>>15750731

The only reason 'academics' disliked NS is because so many of them were judenratte

>>15752844
>shortages of common items and foodstuffs
Cus we all know they didn't happen before Perestroika

>The people fully supported the union
When you word the question as "Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any ethnicity will be fully guaranteed?" yeah you make it as unbiased a question as can be lmao. This is of course ignoring them changing words in the various republics, or ignoring how it was the only referendum offered in soviet history. And we all know soviets are fair when it comes to voting.

>It collapsed due to national governments
But if it was so good why would these various peoples want to leave? I'm guessing all of those people were content for their national governments to do something they all opposed.

>t-t-the oligarchies
Yeah, and who made up most of those oligarhcs?

>>15750369
Read the Black Book of Communism. It's like Mao's little red book, but cooler!

>>15752846
Well the 20 million is nothing to laud certainly, but I was just correcting your inflated number because you over-valuated the figure by 500%
Never said the problems (which problems do you refer to even?) that existed since Stalin were Gorbachev's fault, if anything, the economic stagnation from 1970 onward (So Brezhnev and the era of stagnation then, not Stalin) is partly to blame, although a similar period took place in China (Deng) which was greeted by triumphant economic reform - the execution of the economic reform of Gorbachev and their catastrophic effect is what was Gorbachev's fault

Purges and gulags were under Stalin and early Soviet years, if we're talking the entirety of the Soviet Union and its performance they're not entirely relevant other than an obnoxious "haha, gotcha, the gulags" comment

>>15752871
Denial doesn't make it true. You're argument does not have any substance. I'm guessing every otherf non communist country in the world was still stuck in medieval peasantrey huh? Thank God communism came in to uplift the US, lol. Those soviets helped the peasants out of poverty by killling them or forcing them into factories after stealing their land.
You have no intellectual honesty and should be ashamed.

>>15752921
Already told you that it was driven by individuals and self-interest in the higher echelons of government, not the will of the common population of the nations that seceded

>>15752902
you gotta realize that commies are always losing. They wake up in the morning to a capitalist society that will never go away and is far too big to defeat.
Each new day of the communist’s life is another reminder of their failure to enact any actual change. This is why they constantly seethe and shit their pants. This is why they sperg out when some literal who on twitter dunks on them—because to a 1st world commie, any reminder of how pathetic and helpless they are is another metaphorical kick in the teeth
God I cant wait to celebrate the 4th of July! God bless the United States and God bless the Federal Reserve

>>15752960
>you gotta realize that commies are always losing
True, but so is everyone else who isn't a liberal.

>>15752943
Not my number, I'm a different dude. I'm pointing out how stupid you look going "well aktchually the uplifting and pro-people soviet union only killed 20 million". No you clearly were blaming Gorbachev- and now you-re admitting for any communist regime to survive they needed economic reform. How's those communist goals coming along, boy? lol

>>15752971
*neoliberal

>>15752960
>God bless the Federal Reserve
you're going to do quite a bit of extra years for that one in purgatory

>>15752957
And I already told you, why would the "common people" let their national governments secede if they liked the union? How does a few officials in a satellite republic manage to break away from the union without support? And you're ignoring all the other points lol

>>15752948
The US is a completely different example, it was not in a state of quasi-feudal medievalism by the 20th century, it - and western Europe - had been reformed and had been industrialising and developing for years, something Imperial Russia did not (only began to in the late 1800s and early 1900s before this also was halted by Russo-Jap war and of course WW1)

>Those soviets helped the peasants out of poverty by killling them or forcing them into factories after stealing their land.
Frankly a typical 'murican generalisation

>Muh they didn't help any of the common people they just stole their land or killed them all
The American knowledge of history astounds me, are you still denying the economic boom of Soviet Russia and the rapid increase in living standards?

>You have no intellectual honesty and should be ashamed.
Touché, well, either that or you're actually stupid/uneducated, given your inability to speak your native language without making infantile mistakes more likely suggests the latter

>>15753004
>That's a gross generalization, the soviets only did that to MOST people

No don't worry your little head, its the former. You have no intellectual honesty.

>>15752974
Yeah, I agree, never said that the Stalinist command-economy system was fit for the long-term future. Never said I was not blaming Gorbachev, it was his failed economic reforms and political laxations which saw to the end of the state. You've boxed me in as some kind of tankie but that's not my stance, simply championing the success of the Soviets in rapidly increasing standards of living from Imperial Russian depravity and the uplifting of the nation as well as praising the equality of the Soviet state and the financial security of its society compared to modern Russian/capitalist standards

>>15752960
>and God bless the Federal Reserve
4chan keeps finding new ways to tickle my funny bone

>>15750508
because white people are fucking pussies with soft hands.

>>15753040
Heh, okay bud you actually made me chuckle with this - your baseless assertions and continued lack of substance as well as little ad hominems (to make up for this) are the gift that keeps on giving

>>15752983
*When you go to Purgatory you’re going to do quite a few extra years for that one
or
*You’re going to do extra time for that one once you reach Purgatory
Jesus Christ guys, I thought /lit/ was frequented by people who read AND write

>>15753053
Online-only individuals lack identity so they are easier to draw into extremist territory.
>hey kid, your life sucks and you know who’s to blame? Jews!
>hey kid, your life sucks and you know what’s to blame? Capitalism!!
>hey kid, your life sucks and you know who’s to blame? Rojendo Society!!!

>>15753043
>equality of the state
>financial security

you're just trolling now

>>15753057
Whatever you want to say instead of an actual argument little buddy

>>15750369
Lol my dad’s company got bailed out so much thanks to socialism. If we were living in a capitalist society, the company would be bankrupt by now. Socialism is based and the best for the right people to stay in power. Stupid brainlets, capitalism doesn’t work.