/lit/ - Literature

>>15656047
Kino love story. Garcia Marquez is one of my favorite authors.

>>15656047
The inhabitants of the big cities of Latin America have always been culturally in touch with the rest of the West, they have lengthy western heritage (sometimes older than North America's big cities) since they had a lengthy colonial history, which is why they always kept in touch with the West, their intellectuals read Western works, or study and travel to Europe or North America as members of the West rather than people who identify with some sort of native Eastern consciousness like African, Islamic, Indian, Chinese consciousness. Latin America's natives founded proper empires with their own interesting myths and the Western colonial-descended class, instead of pushing that off like the North Americans, embraced it, it was always the plan since the Spaniards and Portuguese promoted intermarriage, which is partly why a lot of people in Latin America can quite truly claim both the native heritage and the Western (European) heritage even by blood. Nobody else has such a successful synthesis of the West and an indigenous culture. Their ties to the West lets them write work of merit by the West's standards, while their ties to native culture lets them explore exotic interesting themes unknown to Europeans and North Americans. What's not to like? It's a recipe for success. Nobody else in the world has that but them.

>>15656130
That's a very interesting take, thanks for sharing anon.

>>15656093
>>15656047
Normie, pleb tier taste. If your favorite LatAm book isn't Dona Barbara, are you even human?

>>15656338
Wasn't that some shitty telenovela

>>15656354
It was originally a pretty good book.

>tfw no Dona Barbara dom gf

why even live?

>>15656047
The question is, why wouldn't it. I agree with >>15656130. Before WW2, Latin American intellectuals led lives very similar to any Western intellectual. It's also quite similar to what happened in Japan around Meiji, except the cultural exchange between the West and the "South" had at least a couple centuries on Japan's and that it wasn't State-ordained (there it was rich families that thought the "Civilized World", mostly Europe, was chic).
The exchange, though, was mostly one sided. Take Argentina for example, which imported dozens of European architects (and not just those fleeing from the Wars), millions of metric tons of construction materials from Europe, books, professors, technology, etc. As a peculiar example, it's believed that history's first recordings of a surgery and a pornographic were filmed in Argentina.
Saint-Exupery flew all over South America. During WW1 and WW2, America became a haven for intellectual emigrants (consider how many Chess World competitions took place in Argentina).
I feel like this didn't last for long though, with the introduction of the "working class" writer. Not even a few generations later, mainly thanks to Communism, the profile of intellectuals was entirely different.
Since Latin America was viewed as some uninteresting "colony" latched to the Civilized world, nobody cared about the local culture. For good reason though, since many of what's considered National masterpieces in many of the region's countries are entirely provincial and too derivative.
It took some effort and a bit of luck for the West to discover the "Boom" (which had actually been born many decades if not centuries earlier).

>>15656383
>many of what's considered National masterpieces in many of the region's countries are entirely provincial and too derivative.
Can you give some examples? I know nothing of latin american lit

>>15656130
/thread

Have you seen Latin america's absolute state of murder and poverty? How do these cultures produce good writing is beyond me. And while you can argue that their writers aren't your average Latin American, still, they are participating in these "shithole" countries, they're influenced by that no matter what, and still manage to produce some content. You can even cite other even lesser writers such as Lispector, Sabato, Vargas Llosa that aren't very good but have their moments. I fail to find such literature in Canada, Nordic countries, Australia etc and that's fucking embarassing.

>>15656525
Scandinavian conformism prevents them from ever having many truly great writers/artists.

>>15656525
>And while you can argue that their writers aren't your average Latin American

Of course I will argue that. Latin America has and always has had some of the highest inequality rates on Earth. This especially breaks into the racial dimension where speaking of a single South America or even a single Brazil or Colombia runs into obvious problems.

>>15656540
No great writer is your average member of the population. Even in countries that were historically wealthy and have a literary and scientific tradition, mediocrity still runs through. So going by the "of course, they're white and that's why they're genius" doesn't explain it. Your average high class white brazilian, has to live with the fear of getting murdered in Rio de Janeiro, while Scandinavians don't need to fear nothing even close to that. My point is, Scandinavian countries are the pinnacle of human material existence. Their writers should live a contemplative life, and a much better writing experience having time to read and improve on the canon, since they don't need to worry about anything else. Yet, they have produced almost nothing. While other writers living amongst poverty and murder (even if they are high class) still manage to put out literary quality. If writing was linked to genes and IQ, then you should see Scandinavian countries at the top, because there isn't much disturbing the genetic expression there. If it's culture, then you should still see them at the top, just on the basis of how confortable their life is, having much more time to dedicate to studying the arts and producing content.

>>15656557
You're correct saying that Scandi cultures are bland and boring. I think good literature is based on exploring the world from a new perspective and Scandinavia is such a soulless region of the world which places such an emphasis on not standing out (eg: Jantelagen). Sure, their society is great because of it but have little to offer the world in terms of new perspectives. Latin America is the complete opposite, and I can tell you this as I'm someone raised in Latin America with a Nordic family.

>>15656557
>>15656636
There's a lot of real beauty in Latin America that neither of you are focusing on. This is true of North America as well, the Americas really got the best of it. They have some immense natural landscapes. The immensity of natural landscapes in the Americas is not comparable to anything in Europe. They have bigger mountains, bigger forests (including rainforests), bigger plains, bigger lakes, and then they also have deserts, mesas, volcanoes, canyons, tundras, marshlands, and so forth. There's so many things you don't see in Europe that you find in the Americas, like the Bolivian and Utahn salt flats that work like mirrors, the tepuis of Venezuela, the Grand Canyon, the geysers at Yellowstone, the Amazon rainforest, the glaciers in southern South America, the length and width of the Mississippi River. On top of that you have these ancient civilization ruins by the Aztecs, Mayas, Incas, others. Even stuff like mound builder earthworks, Anasazi pueblos, works left behind by various other precolumbian cultures. Scandinavia has its own pretty landscapes up north but it can't compete with the bigger diversity and magnitude of the Americas. It puts them at a literary and artistic disadvantage.

This is the whole continent of south America in your picture, a gigantic land mass.
In reality, South America produces verry little of value when one considers the ratio of works to the land mass and population.

With regards to philosophy, south america is literally irrelevant and no south american philosophers have done anything of note.

>>15656130
spbp

>>15656741
>A region's literary worth is solely dictated by their philosophical output
By this metric, no countries besides Greece, France, England, and Germany have done anything for philosophy.

>>15656703
I absolutely agree that the Americas has way better natural landscapes but I'm not sure that pretty landscapes are entirely or even most of the reason why Latin America has such a rich literary culture. New Zealand and Australia also have breathtaking and diverse landscapes but neither have produced literary work as impressive as LatAm. Even if you compare them to small regions of LatAm, they still can't compete.

>>15656741
I'd like to read more of Mariano Iberico. I through the South American philosophers and most were doing post-colonialism or working off analytic philosophy, mainly reviving skepticism and commentating on Karl Popper (for some reason). Mariano Iberico stood out.

>>15656757
And you would be completely correct.

>>15656772
Based.

>>15656741
Actually it's all of Latin America portrayed here, not only its South American part. And if we're going by meme muh population arguments then Ireland and England shouldn't have the ammount of great writers they have. Either way, when compared to Scandinavian literature, Latin American litertaure is a much richer much livelier tradition and of course a tradition lacks in some genres or aspects than others but still.

>>15656765
It's a combination of struggle, environment and a search for identity. Pain breeds great art. Comfort breeds bland art. I believe Houellebecq talks a bit about this in The Map and the Territory.

>>15656741
The picture is Latin America, not only South America. Also, I'm not sure why landmass is relevant at all considering that most of it is uninhabited. Secondly, South America has the 2nd lowest population count of any continent after Oceania. (Excluding Antarctica ofc). I doubt you were aware of these facts at all. Also, very few countries have contributed anything worthwhile Philosophically speaking so I'm not sure why that's even a point you're making.

>>15656047
There's an interesting small book by a brazilian indigenous worried with the environment. If you're against mindless industrial and liberal greed, you may like it.

>>15656047
because they still posess aristocratic values in their bourgeoisie, comparable to the bourgeoisie of 19th century europe.

t. south american living in degenerate europe

>>15656815
> "ok its irrelevant I admit it"
lol

>>15656047
it's cuz they all still believe in ghosts

>>15656878
If that's all you can reply then you're a lost cause.

>>15656878
>only philosophy matters in Literature
kek

>>15656899
I said in my post, "with regards to philosophy" when discussing the philosophical side. But you can't read, so I am not surprised.

>>15656741
>In reality, South America produces verry little of value when one considers the ratio of works to the land mass and population.
Autism.

>>15656911
>But you can't read, so I am not surprised.
Says the faggot who mistakes Latin America for South America and thinks population matters at all in literature.

>>15656966
that guy is actually retarded lmao

>>15656984
>>15656966
>>15656937
t. seething

>>15656998
cope

>>15657007
Ok Pedro

>>15657018
Ok Jamal

>>15657024
> assuming everyone is from a country equally as bad as yours
hahahahhahaha

>>15656383
Argentina in those days was (in relation to the rest of the world) like korea today in economic terms, and like europe in culture, but it had little population. It was like singapur you know

>>15657042
>this delusional faggot still doesn't believe America and Europe are getting BLACKED beyond recognition
TOP KEK

>>15657058
are you really resorting to those racist tropes? Pathetic...

>>15657043
So was Venezuela, economically speaking. Until socialism happened.

>>15656525
>Have you seen Latin america's absolute state of murder and poverty? How do these cultures produce good writing is beyond me
That's the magic of Latin America.

>>15657085
OHNONONONONONONONO HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>15657117
cringe

>>15657089
Yeah but that was in the 1970s

>>15656047
This thread shows /lit/ in a nutshell, it ranges everywhere from low iq retards namecalling, to people giving legitimate, well thought out opinions. They should give out tests before you're allowed to lurk here, let alone post.

Anyways my favorite book from a Latinamerican author would be Hopscotch, idk why Cortazar isn't talked about more here.

>>15657137
> They should give out tests before you're allowed to lurk here, let alone post.
yeah and you wouldnt be allowed to post

>>15657122
eggplant cope

>>15657146
Yes

>>15656772
>t. retard.
which “countries” did Plato and Aristotle belong to again? Augustine, Aquila’s? Kant?

>>15657154
taco cope

>>15657189
Aquinas

>>15657189
america

>>15657190
watermelon cope

>>15657220
you realize a watermelon cant cope. Hahha you are dumb. LOL

>>15657206
America is not a country, silly.

>>15657229
SEETHING jogger

>>15657189
Athens, Macedonia, Roman Empire, Italy, Prussia.

>>15657236
yeah I forgot srry

>>15656130
Bom post.

>>15656130
>North Americans
You mean Anglo-Americans*. A part of North America is also Latin America.

>>15657245
>t. jogger

thread got derailed and went to shit

>>15657464
>t. projection

>>15657468
faggot contrarians ruin every thread, nothing new.

Literature and intellectualism from it's native civilizations deserve vastly more attention and apperciation, there's some really cool shit.

>>15657664

This could be a really a good thread, thanks to the two retards who ruined it

>>15657675
>>15657664
I'd do my typical long infodumps but I don't have time for that right now, maybe I will latter.

Feel free to ask me questions about Mesoamerican intellectualism or society/history later too

>>15657683
one retard*

>>15656047
we just suffer a lot

>>15657693
Is there anything in which European or Asian and Amerindian cultures agreed upon or are there any striking similarities between them? I find it interesting when studying cultures that essentially developed on two separate worlds, you will often find that they reach similar conclusions on certain topics. Are there any cool examples you can think of?

>>15656741
>This is the whole continent of south America in your picture
Imagine being a retarded mutt

>>15656047
>what's your favorite book written by a Latin American author?
Las Tumbas, Striptease and Las Muecas del Miedo by Enrique Medina, Crónicas del Ángel Gris and Cartas Marcadas by Alejandro Dolina, Los Vecinos Mueren en Las Novelas by Sergio Aguirre and the short stories of Horacio Quiroga.

>>15656741
>The whole continent of south America
>In reality, South America produces verry little of value when one considers the ratio of works to the land mass and population.

Why are mutts so fucking dumb?

>>15656841
The vast majority of latin american writers are communists or something in the left tho

>>15657058
>latin
>inferiorizing people with racism
...

>>15658283
The better ones were right-wing. Borges, Vargas Llosa, Paz, etc.

>>15658294
The fact that you can pin point just proves that the vast relevant majority is left

>>15658292
Latin America has produced a far greater literary body of work than Africa in just 200 years. Yes, we are superior to n*ggers.

>>15658301
Yes, you can pin point that the best were right-wing.

>>15656525
The constant fear of death juxtaposed with access to tropical paradise probably gets the creative juices flowing

>>15658294
Garcia Marquez was a commie

Sabato: tunnel

>>15657058
I bet this shit posts are from a fucking brazilian. This inane capacity of arguing that leads to back and forth trolling is typical of brazilians on 4chan

>>15658294
Sure

>>15658594
Rulfo was only doing it for the lulz. He literally got drunk and got in the Commie party in Cuba guided by Neruda.

>>15658618
Yes, he was kidnapped by Neruda and could not decide on his own. And his literary work is 100% conservative.

>>15658660
I never said he was kidnapped, retard. I simply said he wasn't serious about it.

>>15656741
>This is the whole continent of south America in your picture
Why are you embarrassing us

>>15657137
Imagine being a 16 years old South American boy and reading Hopscotch.

Yep. That was me. It was my first 'serious' novel. Two years later I read The Savage Detectives (18 years, in summer).

I feel bad for those Americans and Europeans who will never be able to feel what it feels to read Hopscotch at 16 y.o. and The Savage Detectives at 18 y.o., while being a South American. Truly an exceptional aesthetic experience very few have the pleasure to live. I feel grateful.

>>15658908
I never read Rayuela at 16 (20, actually) but I did read Savage Detectives at 18. It's actually more meaningful if you're Mexican and understand the setting and references.

>>15657137
Macedonio Fernandez's Museum of the Eternal Novel is better

>>15656130
>tfw my last short story is a tribute to the Mexican Revolution aesthetic and setting inspired by Juan Rulfo mixed with some Borges dream fuckery and Xenophon's Anabasis

>>15656459
>>15656459
I know of one that might fit the bill. "La casa de los espíritus" by Isabel Allende is well regarded and it's basically "100 años de soledad" of Marquez's fame but muh politics. I'm afraid I might be debasing for no reason but... well, see for yourself if you care to verify my claim.

>>15658294
paz was a centrist really
llosa was a commie when younger

>>15658294
>The better ones
>Vargas Llosa
>Paz
Tell me why Octavio Paz is good. I'm not saying he's bad but tell me why he's good without regurgitating what a group if idiots academicians said in the past. What makes him a better essayist or poet than Reyes? Or a better esayist than Revueltas? How is he better than the other essayist of his time.
Vargas is not bad but he is far from the best. Stop reading what spanish publishers tell you to read.

I wish I could enjoy LatAm literature, but it usually has such a rugged narrative style (Iberian literature is mostly the same, in fact). It really doesn't have the charming and kind effect some English authors can produce.

>>15656741
Gomez Davila is better than Cioran.

>>15656836
That's not literature, just political pamphleteering.

>>15656130
True that. Kudos

You're overrating our literary tradition and I think it has to do with a fetishization of the Latin American milieu and our people. We indeed produced some of the geniuses of the medium, but our literary heritage isn't really comparable to that of the US, Europe or Japan.

t. Brazilian

>>15656047
mario bellatin

>>15658908
I'm 18 years of age and South american and I'm going to start reading Rayuela soon. I hope it's good.

>>15659746
US, Europe and Japan have had a considerable head start on Latin America.

>>15659746
We have a richer literature than some European countries. And before saying it's unfair to compare a region to a nation, they had thousands of years to produce great things.

>>15659526
>what is etc
Reyes is in that list as well. He was conservative. But about Paz, his poetry is both sensual and intelligent. It's as if Borges' poetry and Neruda's poetry had a son and he was baptized by T.S. Eliot. His essays are quite lucid. His book Sor Juana, Or, The Traps of Faith is one of the best essays ever written in Latin America. And on top of that he's one of the few Latin Americans to have won the Nobel. Stop telling me what to read.

>>15659022
Buenos dobles
Is it published? Sounds great.

>>15661295
sure
https://www.gomezrios.com/invitados/jenofonte

aaDSa

>>15656525
true art is produced by suffering, this happened in Russia too

>>15656047
I don’t know but it torments me that my spanish isn’t strong enough to read them in their original language.

>>15662784
don't worry, we're all missing out on at least one foreign language with cool literature. I wish I knew literary-level French.

bump

>>15656130
based. can't wait to sell you all my novel in a year or two

>>15659746
Japan is not even close to Latin America.

>>15659122
Is that supposed to be Nagatoro on the left?

>>15656047
good thread

>>15656047
tBHrU2v , join for quality /lit/ discussion

>>15660973
You won't regret it anon, just read the chapters in both sequences (first read it from 1-56 and just after that follow the sequence suggested by the author) believe me, is more enjoyable this way. I am from South America too btw

>>15662085
This is good

>>15657456

Dont be a semantic twat. Anyways, there is a qualitative and experiencial difference between French Canadians and The Iberian American world.

>>15658305
Wow...

adsasd

>>15659746
Você é analfabeto.

Imagine thinking Japan has better literature than we do. Despicable.

>>15656047
Spics are the least intelligent people in the world

>>15659746
Leia mais livros, macaco. Brazil on its own has one of the finest literatury traditions in the world, and needless to say, so does the rest of the continent.

>>15669177
>Brazil on its own has one of the finest literatury traditions in the world
top kek
I don't even blame writers, though. People here are barely literate, and when they do read, it's usually self-help and youtuber books.

>>15669199
Stop pretending you are familiar with our literature. You clearly are not.

>>15669177
Honestly curious and eager to read something from Brazil that is often underrepresented in this LatAm discussions. Would you be willing to give some names of great works from Brazil? I will check if anything is translated to any of the languages that I speak, so don't worry about that.

>>15656047
9bFtP5 saving this thread

>>15659746
ALERTA DE MACACO

>>15669114
False. Nigs are.

>>15659746
>Japan
>heritage of great literary achievements
Modern Japan used a great deal of Western culture and reference to develop a literature of their "own". Same for "their" technology, for "their" music, and the list goes on.
What is uniquely Japanese is all about their comprehension and aesthetic sensibilities, which developed in different ways somewhat by their former ancient culture and geographic isolation.

>>15667140
I'll take your advice. Ty anon

>>15656047
>Why does this region produce so many quality works of literature?
It doesn't
>Also, what's your favorite book written by a Latin American author?
As far as I know none of them are great. You have to go above the Mexican border to find great American literature

>>15671148
You only have one truly great novel and you know which it is. All the rest ranges from good to average just like in Latin America.

>>15671177
>Moby Dick is the only great American novel
Hemingway, Salinger, James, Fitzgerald and McCarthy have all written at least one masterpiece

>>15671323
>Hemingway, Salinger, James, Fitzgerald
Meh.
>McCarthy
Okay, I'll give you that. You also forgot Faulkner, silly.

>>15656047
Because there is a relative large population of whites and mestizos in this region, and they are not as bad as niggers.

>>15671148
low iq answer

>>15659746
>Brazilian
Ew. Everyone in LATAM knows Brazil is an extension of Africa