/lit/ - Literature

>>15634816
Nobody. Only Jesus could argue with him. And me.

>>15634816
I just want to express my appreciation that you used the grammatically correct phrase, "BTFO OF". Good job, OP. Also Cioran brought him down to Earth. He's no dynamite, he's a flawed man whose humanity and frailty came out in his private correspondence.

>>15634900
what???
>Regarding God, Cioran has noted that "without Bach, God would be a complete second rate figure" and that "Bach's music is the only argument proving the creation of the Universe cannot be regarded as a complete failure".
Cioran is such an idiot I cannot express the scale of idiocy. It is him who is "failure".
Axiom: Universe is a flow of energy according to Lawd. Universe is perfect, The Perfection itsels, as God is Perfection.
The blind can only describe how bad they see.

>>15634816
>Any foolish boy can stamp on a beetle, but all the professors in the world cannot make a beetle.
BTFO by his master

>>15634816
Nietzhe is difficult to refute because he has nothing solid to attack. All his theories are just spicy metaphors.

>>15635210

1) God is false,
2) Bach is good,
3) Nietzsche made grandiose personal claims which were refuted in the humanity of his personal correspondence, and this is what Cioran commented on, which was the substance of my earlier post. By writing confusedly on other points, you abdicate the argument here (not that it matters, of course).
4) You concluded with some teenage/vaguely mystical sounding philosophical blather, which makes it difficult to take you seriously.

The point of Cioran's aphorism was simultaneously to put down god and to big up Bach, presumably one of the few things which kept him from killing himself. Now start telling me something about Christianity, or how "the meaning of life is to reproduce brah".

>>15635347
God is. Every atom is good. Tldr.

>>15634900
>Cioran
bitchman didn't do shit

Guenon (pbub

>>15634816
The amazing thing about Nietzsche is that, for all his greatness, he btfos himself quite regularly. He saves the others the trouble.

>>15635281
Can we tone it down with the memes? Let the great man rest with dignity. Otherwise I agree.

>>15635387
>Every atom is good
what about hitler’s atoms, i bet they weren’t good

>>15634827
The Resurrection refutes Nietzsche.

N. BTFO himself

>>15635281
N was by no means an institutional philosopher...

>>15634816
There is only one man so based, so erudite, so actualized, that he could beat Niche..

JHON
CENA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EPL_4HyCFQ

>>15634816
Would anyone have this view of Nietzsche if he never became popular, and just became another philosophical footnote?

>>15634816
Stirner, absolutely. Neetshe wanted everyone to kneel before the Supermen, to the Ideal Humanity, disregarding their Self. I base my affairs on nothing and I am perfect.

>>15635509
hitlers atoms were perfect. you are just degenerate autistic moron living in good guys bad guys paradigm. kiling jobless uneducated purposeless starving neets is a mercy, not a crime. no industrial country needs 85% of peasants in population. your brain is propaganda garbage.

>>15634816
Plato in Gorgias 2,500 years before he was born.

>>15635514
only you don't know how really jesus resurrected. if you think rotten corpse can be alive again you are dumber than a tree, negative IQ.

>>15635926
? Nietzsche aspired to become Superman.

>>15635307
This. Only true intelectual answer, it's the one I agree with also, what a coincidence.

>>15634816
Max Scheler proved that it is actually the self-appointed "supermen" that suffer ressentiment

>>15635281
>Schopenhauer-sama, I KNEEL

>>15634816
He was BTF off by a horse owner.

>>15634816
The guy who cucked him

>>15636205
He doesn't consider himself an ubermenchst. Nietzsche saw himself as a precursor, a free-spirit.

>>15636235
That failed romance story is perpetuated by retarded philosophy teachers, but there is no actual evidence of it.

>>15634900
>He's no dynamite, he's a flawed man whose humanity and frailty came out in his private correspondence.
First line from Nietzsche's 'Ecce Homo':
>I am one thing, my creations are another
Yeah, Nietzsche already addressed that.
Attacking Nietzsche's character as 'durr he wasn't da ubermensch so therefore he can't write about him durr' is so lazy.

>>15635281
Very based quote.
What book is it from?

>>15636297
Why become great if you can make everything else small instead? That's their mantra.

>>15636243
>t.NEETchy
He's a pretty big cuck in his writing too
>I have no one
>That is my sickness uWu

>>15634816
No, even at the time people didn't know how to respond to any of his writings and proclaimed him to be some sort of lunatic, even though his academic work is flawlessly researched and he was correct and influential on too many things to name.

>>15635281
>master
Nietzsche disagreed with Schop and sent him his body bag, though. He strongly believed Schop and thinkers alike were WRONG.

>>15636499
Plato's academic studies on history should only be confined to tragedies. He didn't understand shit about actual Greek philosophy, and it shows when he talks about Plato.

>>15636499
>>15636504
>Plato's academic
Nietzsche's.*

>>15636504
>>15636507
>he didn't understand shit about actual Greek philosophy
By all means, anon, illuminate me and tell me why you're better than Nietzsche at the Greeks.

>>15634816
He doesn't actually present arguments. He's more of a poet than a philosopher.

>>15636510
this anon was best graduate of his moms university, red ass diploma.

>>15636504
Yes Nietzsche the philologist who spent his entire life studying the Greeks knew nothing about them.
lmao

>>15634816
heidegger literally memed him and was like "nietzsche is the biggest nihilist" lmao

>>15636500
To be fair to Schopenhauer, though, Nietzsche's ranking of Christians goes something like Jesus>>>>>>>>>>>>>Schopenhauer>Kant>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else>Paul

>>15635281

>>15636548
Fucking midwit get out of my board. Back to >>>/gay/

>>15636510
>you're better than Nietzsche at the Greeks.
I don't have daddy issues like Freddy boy does so I don't look at Socrates and throw a sperg tantrum because his self discipline like he did because it reminded him too much of Jesus.

The statement that "Christianity is the Platonism of the masses," is fundamentally false. While yes, Neoplatonism had immense influence over the Christian world following the Renaissance, they are nigh irreconcilable. In the Platonic ideals, the highest realm is unknowable - it will remain as such with only intuitive glances into the unknown that lie beyond the comprehension. In Christianity, the highest cause -is- known and very much identified - this source from which their spiritual and ethical precepts lie. Platonism is in this sense much closer to late schools of Hinduism or Taoism than it ever was Christianity - Plato never claimed to be a prophet or a guru - only to help people to be able to think.

Similarly, his total rejection of Christianity causes him to paint with a broad brush what exactly was the "Good" within Platonic philosophy. Clearly, if we're talking in purely cosmological terms, there is a first cause of some form - even if you're totally atheistic. There are unknown causes which will remain unknown for as long as man exists, the highest realm of knowledge that will always be inaccessible to us. A person could name this whatever they want, theorize about it however feels rational; but even the most reasonable hypothesis relies on indemonstrable theories. We, of the Quantum age, still have a great deal of value to derive in the study of Plato, since modern science still suffers the same problems identified within Platonism. Our best modern theories today are not as big of a jump from the time of Plato as we'd like to believe, even the realms of the unconscious continue to validate the things he said.

Nietzsche holds not a single shred of value or contribution to the discussion of metaphysics and psychology that are so much a part of philosophy. If he were a writer today he'd probably post on DeviantArt and wear a fedora. In fact, that's probably exactly like you.

>>15636585
>I skipped the scholastic period
>what could really happen over a couple hundred years of Christianity?
>Also I skipped the bits of the Bible were Jesus quotes Plato
>can't be many people who use that as a basic rule

>>15636539
True. We know so much more about history now than was ever available in Nietzsche's time. Pretty much every work of literature from that era is riddled with historical misconceptions of their time. People overinflate the importance of somebody like Albert Pike so much because they simply don't understand that despite all his reading most of it was wrong. They are also subject to the attitudes of an era, which, as diagnosed by Leo Strauss - had been coming into a forgetting of how to read esoterically.

Nietzsche may well be one of the perfect embodiments of just that form of person. He enjoyed tragedies more than he ever did any kind of thought excercise because he is a materialistic and emotional creature.

A woman.

And a cuck.

>>15636596
Are you okay? It seems you are having a meltdown.

>>15636600
Did I meme Leo Strauss back into common consciousness with that right wing rec thread? Good.

>>15636612
>Did I meme Leo Strauss back into common consciousness with that right wing rec thread?
I never saw that thread, nor is my mention of Strauss from any kind of Chan influence, so you'll have to give me a quick rundown.

>>15636610
>Let's pretend knowing things about the subject is the other person's problem rather than admit ignorance
Your choice. I'm not even the anon you were talking to and you're wrong enough passersby have meltdowns about your wrongness, but that will only really matter if you value being academic debates supported by history and the text.

>>15636630
You didnt even address anything in that anons post. It seems you are just mad and being dismissive because you have nothing of substance to actually say

>>15636621
I mentioned him this week and he's had threads and posts since. He seems to be enjoying a bit of /lit/ spotlight that both he and Nietzsche would have laughed at.

>>15634816
Reading Nietzsche changes your mood instantly, he has passion, his words are knives, his approach is the most direct. Sad boring faggots cannot "blow".

>>15636630
>You're wrong because you're wrong
Well color me fucked at last I see the light.
You don't have to suck Nietzsche's dick just because he read the Greeks - he isn't special even if it seems that way because you haven't.

>>15636640
>Omg are you saying you did point out I'm missing the scholastic period and how it formed the Roman Catholic Church between Orthodoxy and Protestantism and the rise of Kant and the thing in itself and therefore haven't read or understood what Nietzsche wrote about that progression
>omg what do you mean that I have to have read the Bible and the Greeks and compared them to talk about the kind of shit Nietzsche is doing
>Jude totally stole his letter from Portishead lyrics not Diogenes
You're too fucking ignorant to see substance, you lost little orbiter.

>>15636645
I don't think he's that important but I do agree with his sentiment that we have become far too literal in our reading of things to be able to discern real value or meaning from them that is relevant to our lives. We would rather things said simply than for them to be purposefully abstract in order to cause a person to think and answer problems for themselves. He was certainly one of the first to bring up the dumbing down of our academic discource on philosophy. An irony contrasted by the fact that it is more easily accessable now to anyone than it has ever been before.

>>15636663
Your posts, like you. have no substance.

>>15636670
Let him have his fun, it was obvious from his initial challenge, >>15636510 , that he didn't possess the intelligence or maturity to actually consider anything that'd have been said in response.
Once he received the answer he requested he saw he was far too out of his depth to actively participate in a grown up discussion on the matter and this is the result.

>>15636670
>Please stop pointing out I didn't read Nietzsche the Greeks or the Bible before spouting off
No you fucking pleb I will not. Go read a book if it hurts your pathetic willful ignorance.

>>15636682
Just ad hominem. No substance.

>>15636330
kek

>>15636677
That's not me, I came in at >>15636596
I'm responding to this idiot >>15636585 who is talking nonsense like a goodreads basedboi who doesn't know shit about Christianity from the 10th to 17th century or about Nietzsche.

>>15636687
>No you can't make me read the Greeks
You have no idea how long you're here for, start with Pharr. You're going to need Attic and Ionic and Koine after that and then we might believe you when you talk about the Bible. You have about 1500 years more reading after that before you get to Nietzsche. I'd start now if I was as ignorant as you, but if you think sulking will get that reading done for you, by all means carry on.

>>15636694
>>15636703
Whatever makes you feel better about your insufficiency to actually say anything of relevance or value. Anyone with a couple working brain cells can see I'm trying to discuss ideas, and that I've outmatched you so heavily in understanding that all you can do to keep your head above water is try to make up a delusional fantasy about me. It's not enough to just say "you're wrong," you have to actively demonstrate that in order for your statement to receive consideration.

>>15636703
If Nietzsche's followers consist solely of dumbfucks like you then he is BTFO by his own legacy LOL

>>15636596
>bits of the Bible were Jesus quotes Plato
He never does.
You may want to try actually reading the thing.

>>15636143
so what about
>jobless uneducated purposeless starving neets
atoms

are they good then?

>>15636596
>>Also I skipped the bits of the Bible were Jesus quotes Plato

>>15636710
>Please stop saying Nietzsche wrote these things I have to read
>Please stop saying other people can read them too by picking up a book and so there are thousands upon thousands of books lurking around the world to prove me ignorant of Nietzsche and the importance of understanding the history of philosophy and religion when reading him
No, I've given even search words they can even start using the find function to see for themselves how Nietzsche talks about Plato and Christian history leading to Kant. They can even Google what Nietzsche says to see what bits of history he's portraying and how and for what purpose. You would be less scared of other people reading and finding things out if you did it yourself.
>>15636723
>What is the new commandment Jesus gives to his followers to replace the Torah?
>Oh look it's fucking Plato

>>15635868
maybe just take a second to this about this one on your own

>>15636830
You're just embarrassing your whole family now

>>15636853
You should be embarrassed: you post shit smelling your own farts without having read the book like you deserve to take up paragraphs of space just spouting ignorance, and the best defense you can put up relies no body you talking ever reading Nietzsche or having even a basic understanding of the history of Western thought. You're ignorant in so many spheres of life, and when you're told about it, you're happy going back to smelling your own farts rather than reading the books you claim you want to talk about. You're not even basic.

>>15636882
>no body you talking
Nobody you're talking to*

where do I start with nietzsche?

>>15636830
Platos entire Corpus was lost to Western Europe save for a fragmentary work of Timaeus until the Renaissance. There is more time between the conversion of Rome and the time that Plato returned into regular studied discourse than there is from that point to Nietzsche writing. Even then, a lot of mental gymnastics were necessary to attempt reconciling very different metaphysical worldviews into the Christian perspective. Its awfully ironic youd try to call anyone else ignorant while making such a claim that Jesus quoted Plato.

>>15636882
>blablablabla
You're dumb.

>>15636559
>Nietzsche's ranking of Christians
>Schopenhauer
>Christian
So you haven't even read the Wikipedia page of Schopenhauer?

>>15636901
>I'm sure nobody between Plato and the third century AD ever quotes Plato, and there's only Jesus and Plato to point to for this meme and we have no original texts for them
>that's how history works right?
>I'm sure Isocrates isn't a cliche by the time Shakespeare's making Polonius quote those letters word for word to advise his son
>I'm positive nobody will notice Nietzsche was trained to trace the origins of phrases to their native language
>Like how everyone knows Jesus's new commandment is a Greek meme
>ALSO I'M GOING TO IGNORE ALL THE COMMON CHARACTERIZATIONS OF THE SCHOLASTIC PERIOD AS A BALANCING ACT BETWEEN PLATO AND ARISTOTLE BECAUSE THEN I MIGHT NEED TO READ THE GREEKS AND SOME OTHER DUDES
you can pick up any of the book you claim to have read any time.

>>15636918
Nietzsche did not read Wikipedia before calling Schopenhauer a Christian. He read Schopenhauer before calling him a Christian.

>>15636950
Are you actually arguing about whether or not Platos works were lost in Europe for a thousand years? Youd know this with just a basic bitch wikipedia search or reading the first page of Platos Complete Works edition.

You're wrong, and dumb.

>>15634900
>Cioran
kek

Cioran was too afraid of suicide to bring anyone down including himself

>>15636959
>>15636950
For specificity, it was lost to Western, Latin speaking Europe, as indicated in the other post. I know you dont have great reading comprehension so I have to repeat it.

>>15636959
>Zomg how can you say that Plato was a big thing in ?Christian history in the scholastic period
>I'm not going to look up the scholastic period
>Also I'm going to claim there are no common place fragments of Plato throughout Greek works
>Please ignore all the writers in the Roman Empire who quoted him

>>15636971
>Pls don't let any of the evangelists speak Greek
How's that working out?

>>15636972
>During the early Renaissance, the Greek language and, along with it, Plato's texts were reintroduced to Western Europe by Byzantine scholars. In September or October 1484 Filippo Valori and Francesco Berlinghieri printed 1025 copies of Ficino's translation
There's a basic bitch wikipedia glossary of the facts there for you. You could have at least fact checked yourself before looking stupid. You may want to ask your mommy to explain how many years lie between the beginning of the scholastic era and the reintroduction of Plato. It's more years than you'll be able to count on your chubby fingers.

>>15636992
>Oh look I found a thing which says there was some development around Plato in the scholastic period, which seems to show some flow from Plato and orthodoxy into the Roman Catholic church, like you said
>Like you said Nietzsche said
Glad you could admit you were wrong accidentally, but reading the books you were wrong about would be an even better part. You may want to note however that is when Scholasticism has already drifted from Plato and towards Aristotle.
Now, how would you link this to Kant and how does that agree with what I said about Nietzsche whom you have read nothing from?

>>15636972
>>15636992
Here is also the referenced textual source, since retarded faggots like you don't actually read anything ever and then act as if you are better than the encyclopedic entries you also ignore.

"Plato’s works had been unavailable for study in the Latin west for close to a millennium, except for an incomplete Latin translation of Timaeus, but from the fifteenth century onwards,through the revived knowledge of Greek and from translations into Latin"

Woops, you're retarded.
Nietzsche's disciples, everybody.

>>15637005
>>15637013
>You may want to note however that is when Scholasticism has already drifted from Plato and towards Aristotle.
LMFAO this fucking retard.
I don't believe you've said anything itt that was actually true. You just keep playing yourself.

>>15635445
Not only this, but its exactly what makes him great. His philosophy is a struggle with his own nature

>>15637005
>some development around Plato in the scholastic period
After what, like 400 years?
The scholastic period was more about Aristotle, because, as we have learned - Plato wasn't even really being studied.
>Scholasticism has already drifted from Plato
Except the opposite is what happened.
You just keep digging your hole deeper.

>>15637013
>Haha, with that I will wipe Bonaventure from the history of Scholasticism
I suggest you go edit his wikipeida page so other people who don't read believe you.

>>15637035
>I suggest you go edit his wikipeida page so other people who don't read believe you.
Maybe you should try reading something for the first time in your pathetic life and take your own advice.

>scholasticism began as an attempt at harmonization on the part of medieval Christian thinkers, to harmonize the various authorities of their own tradition, and to reconcile Christian theology with classical and late antiquity philosophy, especially that of Aristotle

Dumbfuck.

>>15637016
>top of page says readers in every generation
>Please let people believe that Nietzsche limited himself to the Christian Latin speaking west in his path of history
>Please let people think Jesus spoke Latin and was in the west
>Please don't let alone know what Koine was or how widely it was spoken
>Please don't let him post well known scholastics writing centuries before I want to claim Plato came back
Too late bud, history has happened and all your tears will not make you right about it.

>>15637035
When Plethon, the leading Byzantine scholar and philosopher of the time, accompanied the Byzantine Emperor to Ferrara and Florence in 1438–39 for the unsuccessful Council of Union between the Catholic and Orthodox churches, he created a sensation among Italian humanists with his elevation of Plato as the first of philosophers—abov ethe Latin scholastics’ hero, Aristotle.

>>15637043
>Please don't let anyone know that there are more Scholastics than just Aquinas
>Please don't let anyone know some of his works were suppressed by the Church because the Church hated Aristotle
You know they teach that part in middle school grades in Europe.

>>15637054
>No if I keep repeating it Bonaventure will cease to exist in the 1200s and will write nothing on Plato
>I'm magic like that
Try clapping?

>>15637051
>>top of page says readers in every generation
Hahahahahahahahahahahahah.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Holy fuck are you actually illiterate?
>>Please let people believe that Nietzsche limited himself to the Christian Latin speaking west in his path of history
I'm... explaining the development of philosophic history in Western Europe, which Nietzsche was later part of.
You clearly need the background info because you think Jesus quotes Plato and that the Scholastic period was a shift from Plato to Aristotle, which is obviously the opposite since Plato wasn't being read in Latin Europe until halfway through the Scholastic period.

Thanks for validating that Nietzsche didn't really understand a lot of things he talked about, by demonstrating that his dickriding cheerleaders are retards.

>>15635210
>The blind can only describe how bad they see.
is this a quote?

>>15637069
>I'm... explaining the development of philosophic history in Western Europe, which Nietzsche was later part of.
No, you're leaving out parts that Nietzsche specifically wrote on as a reasoning why he's unreasonable to write about it. He is writing the history of Christianity from Plato, so of fucking course it includes such things as Greeks, Arabs, Orthodoxy, Christians at the time of Jesus who wrote in Greek, and the lasting effect of Plato on Western society which is larger than the narrow section you are choosing. You might as well argue that Nietzsche cannot write in German as it was unknown to Plato or the Scholastics.

>>15636953
Where Nietzsche called Schopenhauer a Christian?

>>15637083
>Also I skipped the bits of the Bible were Jesus quotes Plato
>the Church hated Aristotle
>Scholasticism has already drifted from Plato and towards Aristotle.

>>15637095
Those are all real quotes from Nietzsches most ardent fanboy

>>15637069
>Bro, Neoplatonism never happened
>Especially nowhere near church bigwigs like Augustine
Nobody gives a fuck about the scholastics, unless they're cathcucks, but anon is right this is just ignorant. Plato's influence on Christianity since they first started forming churches is pretty much a given.

>>15637095
>>15637106
>Please don't make me read books or history
It is your choice like I said. You could stop being wrong about things, but you don't want to inform yourself. Just know, people who read will laugh at you and point you towards things that contradict your on the spot googling of history.

>>15637109
Please anon, this is embarrassing.
Have your mommy read this for you in words your little brain might understand.
>Plato’s works had been unavailablefor study in the Latin west for close to a millennium
Neoplatonism was simply revived in the Renaissance, as all of us who aren't retarded know. The vast majority of Plato's influence on Christianity comes after he was reintroduced to Europe. This is why Nietzsche's assumption that Christianity is Platonism is a historical misconception that he didn't understand. It ignores a thousand years of Christian history divorced from him.

>>15637129
>>Jesus quotes Plato
>>the Church hated Aristotle
>>Scholasticism drifted from Plato and towards Aristotle.
>>me know book and history

>>15635281
Powerful...

>>15637093
Most of Twilight of the Idols. He calls him something like "the heir to Christian morality"

>>15637150
>>Plato’s works had been unavailablefor study in the Latin west for close to a millennium
What does that have to do with what Anon's talking about? Why would the goalposts be "the Latin west" for Nietzsche (or Jesus or Plato or anyone else you guys are arguing about)? It looks like you're trying to say Plato is not a major influence on Western Christian thought since its inception, and yeah that is fucktarded. I'll let the guy who had time to read the scholastics deal with you.

>>15637176
Christian morality isn't same as literally calling him a Christian.

>>15637198
It is for Nietzsche. He only doesn't call Plato one because he came too early.

>>15637191
You can stop samefagging now. It doesnt change that you are wrong.

>>15636585
>>15636600
>>15636901
>>15636992
Articulated, thought out discussion, citing sources and historical facts.
>>15636596
>>15636663
>>15636830
>>15636950
Smallbrained greentext posting. Probably 15 years old. Nothing but personal attacks to feel better about his insecurities and straight up historical ignorance.
Chad Platonist vs Virgin NEETchy

>>15637222
Checked. He wasnt just a cuck in life, but is a cuck in death

>>15634816
Melville

>>15636736
stalin said a man is a problem, no man - no problem. I agree completely, blm sjw riots confirm.

>>15637222
>tfw know what Nietzsche passage and Portishead song are referenced here >>15636663
Thanks /lit/

>>15637074
no.

>>15637213
That's so naive.

>>15637222
"I am not male, I am vegemite"
-t.Fedora NEET

>>15637281
How?

>>15634900
According to history, Cioran was wrong. Nietzsche had a drastic effect on the world, just like dynamite. He will be remembered among the Germans as Plato is remembered among the Greeks.

>>15637810
Lol wat. Plato changed the whole world over, synthesizing some of the greatest thinkers into an educational model that lasted thousands of years.
Nietzsche exuded edge and cringe. That's all.

>>15637222
How will pseudointellectual teenagers ever recover?
>>15637887
Nietzsche taught the rebellious youth of the world how to be bigger faggots than they would have been otherwise without him

Nietzsche had the privilege of assaulting philosopher's long dead, had Kant lived to see his influence and take a critical take on his philosophy, I'd think Kant would completely dismantle him. See Kant's Anthropology and his 'Religionsschrift' to see that Kant himself had an astute understanding of the human psyche. I think he could have played a Nietzschean game of genealogy really well and could have shown why Nietzsche is a bad philosopher.

I say this as a huge Nietzsche fan, he is a shit 'proper' philosopher, something he knew.

>>15638074
Schopenhauer could have done it. Kant would write him off as another Swedenborg. I think Goethe would have liked him too.

>>15638129
Assuming, as I said, that Kant would have lived to see Nietzsche become a philosopher worthy of dealing with.

>>15638152
Yeah but I'm also assuming all of the rest of them would be alive.if Kant gets to be alive and Goethe's still dead, obviously Kant has an advantage in the debate.

>>15638159
My comment was directed at your suggestion that Kant would just write him off, which is true of course, unless Nietzsche becomes actually relevant for the philosophical discourse, which he very much has. Goethe would very much like Nietzsche, I agree with this, at least Nietzsche liked Goethe. I suspect Schopenhauer would have had serious problems dealing with Nietzsche.

>>15638183
I'm saying that if Nietzsche had become relevant, as Swedenborg had and remains, he would have written it off in the same fashion, despite the popularity. I think Goethe would have liked Nietzsche at that point of Nietzsche's influence too, like he liked Swedenborg. I think Schopenhauer would have dismantled Nietzsche into electronic dust. Schopenhauer is ten times the sperger Nietzsche is and ultimately he would have found Schopenhauer at the heart of his amor fati, and stopped arguing. It would be like when you love big brother.

Stanley Rosen... but you lot aren’t ready for that discussion yet. p

>NEETzsche
>42 - Work and Ennui. In respect to seeking work for the sake of the pay, almost all men are alike at present in civilised countries; to all of them work is a means, and not itself the end; on which account they are not very select in the choice of the work, provided it yields an abundant profit. But still there are rarer men who would rather perish than work without delight in their labour: the fastidious people, difficult to satisfy, whose object is not served by an abundant profit, unless the work itself be the reward of all rewards. Artists and contemplative men of all kinds belong to this rare species of human beings; and also the idlers who spend their life in hunting and travelling, or in love-affairs and adventures. They all seek toil and trouble in so far as these are associated with pleasure, and they want the severest and hardest labour, if it be necessary. In other respects, however, they have a resolute indolence, even should impoverishment, dishonour, and danger to health and life be associated therewith. They are not so much afraid of ennui as of labour without pleasure; indeed they require much ennui, if their work is to succeed with them. For the thinker and for all inventive spirits ennui is the unpleasant "calm" of the soul which precedes the happy voyage and the dancing breezes; he must endure it, he must await the effect it has on him: - it is precisely this which lesser natures cannot at all experience! It is common to scare away ennui in every way, just as it is common to labour without pleasure. It perhaps distinguishes the Asians above the Europeans, that they are capable of a longer and profounder repose; even their narcotics operate slowly and require patience, in contrast to the obnoxious suddenness of the European poison, alcohol.

>>15636539
Why did he miss the point of Dionysiac ekstasis then? Why did he ignore all references about it in Plato? Why did he never mention telestic cults? Christian holy fools?

>>15637887
Are you serious? Nietzsche changed the whole world over too, and is still changing it. It hasn't even been two centuries yet since he was alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_and_reception_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche

Hitler and Mussolini read him, Jung and Freud read him, Einstein read him passingly, pretty much every 20th century thinker read him and many spent a great deal of their time trying to follow him up, he played a part in the development of almost every philosophy and political ideology developed in the 20th century, and he has had a recent influence on the field of quantum science.

That is an immense influence that you're dismissing. How much did Plato change in just two centuries? How much of his influence came after? What reason is there to believe Nietzsche's influence won't continue in the future?

>>15638525
He didn't miss the point of it. The Dionysian ekstasis is expressed in his work; it's the work itself. Nietzsche only ever wrote after he had already observed, reflected, thought it out, and constructed his ideas. Every time he sat down at his typewriter, he was allowing his spirit to dance free. It's how he was able to write so many long and complex aphorisms in a single session.

Also, he "ignored" Plato because he didn't agree with Plato and thought that Plato wasn't a true Greek in spirit.

>>15638651
Jung also said if anyone was closest to the truth it would be Plato.

>>15638651
>>15638911
Also, Einstein, describing a scientist
>He may even appear as Platonist or Pythagorean insofar as he considers the viewpoint of logical simplicity an indispensable and effective tool of his research.

>>15635281
tpbp

>>15638911
>>15638952
Jung was a bit of a superstitious quack, just like Freud, but they still read Nietzsche and still derived some of their ideas from him, and he still influenced the fields of psychology and psychoanalysis. Read Human, All Too Human if you're interested on that.

Einstein's statement there is a bit Nietzschean, in fact. Read The Gay Science.

>>15638688
>The Dionysian ekstasis is expressed in his work;
Not in its original sense, to wit, religious, which is expressed in orphic, eleusinian, chaldean, egyptian, etc. mystery cults. This reflects a much deeper character common to all religions and traditions, that is the human response to the dread, awe inspired by consciousness of the numen. You can see it in Pan from which the word panic is derived.

>he ignored Plato because he didn't agree with Plato and tought he wasn't a true Greek in spirit.
Then Pythagoras, Socrates, Parmenides, Orpheus,etc etc were not true greeks? Nietzsche got so many things wrong it is inconceivable. No wonder why he ended up that way.

>>15634816
Many have tried to BTFO him. All have failed, myself included.

>>15639013
>Not in its original sense, to wit, religious, which is expressed in orphic, eleusinian, chaldean, egyptian, etc. mystery cults.
His work is a mystery cult. Do you think you can access its profundity merely by reading it, much less attain its greatest wisdom and character for yourself on your own? You've deceived yourself then. Only his hyperboreans can do so, and he makes this very clear.

>Then Pythagoras, Socrates, Parmenides, Orpheus,etc etc were not true greeks?
Socrates was a decadent. The others are not Plato; have you even read Nietzsche?

>>15638988
I have read all of his books. He tries too hard. Someone who likes the self indulgent ramblings of Nietzsche would probably also enjoy Ego and His Own. While I can understand the certain kind of appeal of this worldview to a twisted fucking psycopath like pic related, it is awfully sophomoric. Nietzsche's best ideas, like Eternal Return, Slave Morality, Apollonion v Dionysian aren't even really original developments.

>>15639083
>His work is a mystery cult.
Lol no it isn't. Mystery cult would imply that there is anything Nietzsche really cared about other than the sensory experience and this life of the material world.

>>15639087
It's not enough to have read his books. You have to perform his rituals and practice the philosophy for a long time. Stirner is really nothing like him.

>Nietzsche's best ideas, like Eternal Return, Slave Morality, Apollonion v Dionysian
Besides eternal return, those aren't his best ideas, and you can't grasp anything about his eternal return without grasping will to power.

>>15636532
Filtered

>>15639099
Okay, so you clearly haven't even read him. I don't know why guys like you insist on posting in threads like these.

His work is very much a mystery cult, or at any rate it's ready to be made into one. Thus Spoke Zarathustra was a first step on that front.

>>15639103
>>15639117
It's alright, I know you're 17 and reaaally impressed that he influenced Hitler. You were already obviously retarded when you thought Nietzsche was comparable with one of the most influential intellectual figures in all of human history from whom many different forms of spiritual mysticism spawned.

>>15639087
>He tries too hard.
This will always be my least favorite criticism.

>>15639117
Also, Thus Spoke Zarathustra is fucking boring
>muh man is a bungee cord between my ass and my head

>>15638651
you're too silly

>>15639157
It's just pretentious and moody. He's like the Fall Out Boy of philophers

>>15639083
>Socrates was a decadent. The others are not Plato; have you even read Nietzsche?
Those were the main inspirations for Plato's philosophy and life.

>His work is a mystery cult.
hahahahahahahahahahaha
not even gonna answer this, you simply have nothing to say

>>15639149
>>15639160
And here comes the shit-flinging. Predictable.

You don't understand him and probably haven't read him, because "Nietzsche only cares about the sensory experience and this life of the material world" is a misunderstanding of him that's so absurd I can only hope that it's because you haven't read him. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by accusing you of not having read him.

The material world is immaterial for Nietzsche.

>>15639176
>you simply have nothing to say
Why do you assume that? I have had more to say about Nietzsche on this board alone than any other poster. I've been posting here for 10 years. I've given countless lectures on his philosophy here. The breadth of his philosophy is so immense that one could spend a lifetime on it just as he did. The man was a Schopenhauerian genius.

>>15636532
Nietzsche is sometimes regarded as a poet because he was so in-tune with the Apollonian and the Dionysian that we only ever saw the Dionysian element, which is poetic. In reality, he was deeply invested in the Apollonian — perhaps even more-so than the Dionysian, because he understood the two as forming a co-dependent unity, so by elevating the Apollonian, the Dionysian would thereby be elevated too.

>>15639196
>You don't understand him
Not much to understand.
>"Nietzsche only cares about the sensory experience and this life of the material world" is a misunderstanding of him
No. It really isn't. It's a pretty apt summation
>The material world is immaterial for Nietzsche.
Some pseudo hoodoo nonsense. Nietzsche's worldview is entirely about the fact that all you have is this life - and that is the purpose underlying his life affirmation and rejection of Plato. He assumed Plato's ideology to be life denying in the sense of idealism which he rejected.
When, in reality, what's more life affirming -
1. Loving this world so much that you advance the studies of mathematics and astronomy to understand it better, while simultaneously believing there is more?
2. Sitting and sulking about Christianity and how you're so much better than every other philosopher and everyone else.

Nietzsche was kind of a faggot, anon. I'm not even a Christian but its tiresome. Really, his only great passion was trying to talk about how great he thought he was.

>>15639196
You'd think after 10 years of shitposting philosophy threads you'd know who Pythagoras, Parmenides, Anaxagoras, and Orpheus are. Maybe you're not as smart and read as you think you are?

>>15639245
the small souled bugman spergs away at the heels of his betters

>>15639259
Sperg away then.

>>15639245
>Not much to understand.
There's as much as your own brain capacity can withstand, which appears to be very little for you.

Rest of your post is drivel that has no bearing on his work or philosophy. Stick to your Plato and Christian theologians, brainlet.

>>15639271
then he cringes at the lack of respect his tantrum earned

>>15639196
That's nice, anon, and I can see some valuable points in Nietzsche's philosophy. But the question was about his comprehension of Greeks which is reductionist, even though he may have been accurate in some aspects of tragedies, for example.

>>15639274
>no bearing on his work or philosophy
It's a pretty accurate description of most of his work.
>I have no one ablublu muh sickness
>I was the first to know truth bc I'm big smart
>Muh loneliest ascent
I'm referencing direct lines from his own works to make fun of because it is so cringy and recurrent.
>Stick to your Plato and Christian theologians, brainlet.
Do you even know how massive is a corpus on just these categories alone? It pretty much includes the entire Western canon. That's a lot more than Nietzsche or anything inspired of him ever made. Maybe you should actually try diving into them in the future so you won't be so retarded.

>>15639258
Do you know how Nietzsche opposed Plato? Because I suspect you don't.

>>15639284
His comprehension of the Greeks is very unique among academic philosophers, so I don't blame you for thinking that he's reductionist on this. There is far more history and literature on the Platonist interpretation. It isn't at all, though, and as you come to understand it, you'll realize how his view — that it was Socrates and Plato who were reductionist — makes a lot of sense.

>>15639274
https://mega.nz/file/r19xDKYS#AOm2iWv3LjE-mjFfQVLIJYQqxqX1CqyfO-ckYyxLJFE
Check out this book.
You don't have to read it, but give it a quick glance over. Check out a couple pages part way in it, read a couple sentences.
As the confusion and frustration swells up in you as you realize you can't comprehend anything in it - understand why you are out of your depth.
Nietzsche is fucking shallow by comparison to most the great shit out there.

>>15639370
I'm not clicking that. What book is it?

>>15639378
Summulae de Dialectica by Jean Buridan

>>15639330
>that it was Socrates and Plato who were reductionist.
Both of them inherited knowledge from many different traditions. When you actually study Platonism you realize how unoriginal in the core concepts it is - and this is no demerit at all, Plotinus himself wrote how platonic doctrines were not novel and referred back to older traditions.
''Our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness''. This is from Phaedrus and reflects the genuine cult of Dionysus, the one Nietzsche overlooked and ended up presenting a distorted and sentimental perspective.

>>156393
>it was Socrates and Plato who were reductionist — makes a lot of sense.

>>15639402
Thanks. Is there something that's supposed to be difficult there? The idea of equipollence there is even present in Nietzsche (it is how he reaches his concept of amor fati).

>>15639438
>The idea of equipollence there is even present in Nietzsche
Take his dick out of your mouth for 5 minutes and try to think about what I'm saying.
Jean Buridans summaries on logic are so thoroughly academic, it is philosophy as more than just merely opinions but as science. Comparing Nietzsche to the likes of Aristotle, Buridan, or Sir Francis Bacon is like comparing Harry Potter to Crime and Punishment

>>15639412
The Dionysian is admittedly one of the least relevant aspects of Nietzsche's work, despite his relentless proselytizing of his concept of it (which is best understood by reading The Birth of Tragedy, his least relevant work, where he spends a good amount of time defining what he means by the word (a process of redefinition, most likely inspired by Schiller's antics, that he himself was conscious of)). You'd do better to not place so much importance on it when attempting to evaluate his philosophy.

>>15639505
Nietzsche is not "merely opinions" any more or less than Buridan or any of the other academics are, and it has nothing to do with sucking his dick, since you're the one challenging his philosophy and patronizing me without possessing even a modicum of understanding. Nietzsche wrote an entire book on these scientists that you clearly haven't read.

>>15635926
That's not what the concept of the übermensch means... Have you read anything from Nietzsche on transvaluation?

>>15639546
>any more or less than
Absolutely less.
There is nothing scientific about Nietzsche. Philosophy isn't just about dickwaving, it is also about understanding the Universe. There is typically a lot of math and dialectic involved - Nietzsche is a mere poet who's prose isn't even good. That's part of why he's kind of sophomoric and one dimensional by comparison.

>>15639595
You clearly haven't read The Gay Science. I'm not sure what you've read of him, honestly. Sounds like nothing at all.

>>15639627
Yeah you definitely have being a faggot down to a science thats for sure.

>>15639650
I'm not joking or trolling. Your conclusions are on par with those of someone who has had little to no contact with Nietzsche's philosophy. There are sprawling aphorisms that directly debunk what you're claiming.

>>15634816
Gu zhen ren, or Buddha

>>15639196
>Nietzsche only cares about the sensory experience and this life of the material world" is a misunderstanding
>This poster does not dance
Opinions on Nietzsche totally disregarded

>>15639892
Dancing comes after much practice, anon.

>>15639911
No you're wasting days, days you could be dancing

>>15636837
>popular good
https://youtu.be/eckGuEWv9MU

>>15639923
You should dance every day, but only after practicing every day. The Apollonian was never supposed to be left out of the formula.

>>15639934
>dancing to your own beat however distant is out of the question
You've just never been to a good rave. Look out for flyers.

>>15639942
Rave dancing is Dionysian dancing for the mob.

>>15639956
It is beautiful like that. youtube.com/watch?v=IAEcU-cxUGM

>>15635281
My god... his power...

>>15639546
>he spends a good amount of time defining what he means by the word
he spends a good amount of time distorting* the word, which, as I said, is rooted in religious and theological ideas.

>>15635281
I've had enough of Schopenhauer memes. Can't talk about him on this shithole of a board without retards coming out to shitpost.

>nobody has posted wolverine schopenhauer yet
dynamite vs adamantium
>>15641181
>enough of Schopenhauer memes.
lies

>>15640764
Greek religion didn't mean the same thing to everyone in ancient Greece, just like how religion doesn't mean the same thing to everyone today.

>>15636710
it's really incredible to see this kind of delusion, i guess people like you would be attracted to a place named after literature, something you hold in high regard despite, seemingly NOT HAVING FUNCKING READ ANYTHING FROM 0AD TO 1800AD

>>15636853
funny how the guy bitching about ad hominems is the one doing them

>>15637281
Its true tho. If plato came after jc nietzche would accuse him of Christianity. God knows plato deserves it the fucker.

>>15636585
One thong though, im nowhere near an expert in christian theology, but dont christians believe in an unknowable except through intuition too? Isnt God kind of the name for that? I mean, it at least seems to be with how God is used in christian topics, with the addition of a positive universiality. “This is part of gods unknowable plan” and so on. Seems more like a semantic distinct to me rather than qualitative. Though is this a later synchonization?

>>15641323
All religions are rooted in the same non-rational element. Greek religion had multifarious expressions, but this is not so distant from other religions, specially taking the esoteric-exoteric distinction in mind.

>>15636143
>no industrial country needs 85% of peasants in population.
so... the population is not perfect, and therefore their atoms are not perfect. Fucking idiot retard, shut up.

>>15639575
Have you read any of the will to power, where Nietzsche is planning to build up his own future overman breeding factory to create god, and having the rest of humanity as mere tools to get this task done? No? It's alright, I already knew that.

>>15636165
You are misunderstanding the quote. Nietzsche put value on power, on being superman, and not on himself. What he placed value on was still external to himself. Stirner bases his self-value on nothing but himself.

>>15639196
Wrong, insofar as all that exists is appearance in Nietzsche's antisystem system.

>>15639546
>The Dionysian is admittedly one of the least relevant aspects of Nietzsche's work, despite his relentless proselytizing of his concept of it
Not true. The Dionysian is central to the will to power as the love of energy expenditure (which is one of the two masks Nietzsche's will to power wears, this one being developed later by Bataille's general economy), which is why Nietzsche calls this world "a dionysian world" in the final aphorism of the will to power.

>>15639196

>The material world is immaterial for Nietzsche.

Could you explain this? I've read Nietzsche, but this has never once occurred to me.

Yes, me. His will to power is a misunderstanding, as well as the physical theory that accompianies it (if you can still call it a physical theory). This means power crumbles as absolute value, though I know exactly why Nietzsche set it up as absolute value. The master/slave morality is a misunderstanding, though I have posted about that before so consult the archive. Because of his poor ability for mathematics and other extremely formal systems young Nietzsche despised as slave systems he wasn't able to regard Parmenides with seriousness. Even in his work the philosophy of the tragic age of the greeks he scorns him as a "logical" thinker (young Nietzsche isn't too bright, see the portions of the birth of tragedy when he tries to talk about metaphysics ("art is the true metaphysical activity")). Late Nietzsche, who gets better disposed to physics (though still scorning extremely formal systems), never comes back to Parmenides, so he misses much there, since that is quite a deep rabbit hole. For proof of my claim that he still is not well disposed to formal systems, see his tirades against the "slave systems" of "eternal popular sensualism", and also his hatred of Spinoza for using propositions and such, deeming it born out of "resentment" (this new hatred for formal systems is probably born out of Nietzsche's second lapse of skepticism). His perspectivism is right when he is more delicate with his epistemology, and wrong in other times when he is not. Amor fati and eternal recurrence are both stoic conceptions that he adapted, and the former is dumb since it is constructed to destroy regret and shame created by the Christian system, while he forgets that regret and shame are very important and useful emotions to have in relation to some event that already happened. The latter is, when you think about it, not too different than Christians using each of their actions so they can access heaven (though this criticism only holds if he actually wanted to create eternal recurrence through god-creation). If he didn't want to create the eternal recurrence, then it is just the lap dog of amor fati. The overman is just desired by Nietzsche because of him placing power as supreme value.

>>15642079
I am not him, but I assume it is because Nietzsche is actually working off of Schopenhauer's metaphysics, and because of that there is no material but appearance. With Nietzsche, there is only the will to power, and appearance is simply it's expression. Though the other man seems better versed in Schopenhauer than me, so he can probably clear it up better.

>>15637016
What about not in Latin tho.

>>15642162
Where to read more on this?

>>15634816
>Blocks your path

>>15642162
while you wrote all that someone fucked you in ass and you did not notice.

>>15635210
>it is him who is the failure
I'm certain he would agree with you.