/lit/ - Literature

it's overrated by normies but it's still very good imo

>>15537215
>dosto
well duh

>>15537230
> demons
> normies
> overrated
really ?

>>15537215
>>15537230
>>15537235
psychological novel for adults with time to analize the depth of character and plot.
If you dont get that, try to read slower, be more patient.

>>15537240
it's like 8.6/10 on goodreads or some shit, his highest rated besides TBK. it deserves to be like 8/10

>>15537235
What is it about Dostoyevskiy that makes him so hard for westerners to read? The most coherent argument I've heard was that his dialogues are long, but that's basically admitting you have active memory capacity of a chair.

>>15537244
>psychological novel for adults
More like for teens.

>>15537299
He was a shit prose stylist.

>>15537301
why is it for teens?

>>15537305
That's, like your opinion, dude. For me stuff like Irvine Welsh, William Gibson or Roger Zelazny is borderline unreadable.

>>15537309
Angsty and edgy and driven by self-absorption.

>>15537309
Since we're on 4chan, how much do you wanna bet he's a triggered socialist or worse some edgy "wanna see the world burn" type?

>>15537301
you really believe that ?

>>15537331
yeah, you right

>>15537299
Is this a thing? I have a hard time believing that any non-retard has trouble following Dosto, outside of the philosophical dialogues he reads like pulp drama

>>15537331
>"wanna see the world burn" type
is he really?

>>15537328
What makes them edgy to you

>>15537336
whole life I thought that dosto is easy to read but makes you think about depth of his novels.
maybe because Im from poland, it is more central europe than west

>>15537334
Non-white spotted

>>15537336
I mean I keep seeing people complaining about it, so apparently it is a thing. Dostoyevskiy is some of the most easy to literary _read_ authors, imo.

>>15537346
The dark and restless characters committing acts of debauchery, murder and mayhem. Themes which appeal very much to the teen boy mindset.

>>15537299
I've never heard of him being hard to read for Westerners. He's one of the few literary authors I can think of who normies actually read without any apparent difficulty.

>>15537370
but their problems are not much appealing to teens
> problems with god
> atheistic country
> fear of living in a world without god

>>15537362
I've never heard such complaints. Dosto is very 'easy' to read in the cognitive sense, it's just that his prose is clunky and ugly, even in translation.

>>15537382
If you have any of those "problems", you have them most intensely in your teen years. Hence the universal appeal of existentialism and similar ideas to the 15 year old male mind. It's almost a part of puberty.

Gravity's Rainbow or The Silmarillion are tough reads anon, not pic related>>15537215

>>15537397
you are trying to say that dosto is YA literature ?

>>15537373
>>15537384
IDK, maybe I'm just lucky on dummies. Good to know that it's not a universal thing.
>it's just that his prose is clunky and ugly, even in translation
How? If anything, I think it's the translations that can make it read that way, since there are definite differences between the way people talk in different languages.
The other reason might be that peculiar XIX century lexicon really comes through in his books.

>>15537404
I think of YA as more for 10-13 year old girls. Of course, in the sick culture of America, there are actual middle aged men reading that garbage. Sad.

>>15537408
I suppose style is ultimately a matter of taste. But Tolstoy and Turgenev are just much smoother writers.

>>15537397
tell me some problems you have when you're adult.

>>15537411
im not native speaker of english but,
> YA - young adults
> 10-13 y.o. girls
can you explain for europe guy am I missing something ?

>>15537435
young adult is essentially a term you use for a teenager when you want them to start acting responsibly

>>15537425
They tend to involve other people. Family relationships, responsibilities at work and in the political arena. Less navel-gazing and neurosis.

>>15537443
then why that term is used in literature ?

>>15537435
It's just a marketing term. It's essentially meaningless.

>>15537457
aha, thanks buddy

>>15537456
It describes the target demographic of the work. If you call it children's fiction teenagers won't read it, if you call it teenage fiction then teenagers that think they're mature and adults that would otherwise read it won't buy it.

>>15537401
>The Silmarillion
>tough reads
I swear to fucking god the next time I hear someone complain about The Silmarillion being a "tough read" I'm gonna break something. What the fuck is wrong with you people? It's a fucking fantasy. Just because it's structured as a chronicle doesn't mean it's hard to read. It's not even a fucking epic, it's in prose. After Ruslan and Ludmila and Alice's Adventures in Wonderland it was my third favorite books as a kid and I still think it's much easier to read than The Lord of the Rings.

>>15537421
>Tolstoy and Turgenev are just much smoother writers
I agree. I think Turgenev is about up there with Chekhov and Gogol in "smoothness", you can read it to preschool kids.

>>15537467
a lot of people saying that because of many characters and names this book is hard to read, so yeah you have right that structure is hard, not the prose or story.

his 'shit' prose is intentional, retard. obviously he's not as talented as tolstoy but he was a master craftsman where everything was deliberate.

>>15537504

>>15537299
shitty translations
but if you get a good one it's quite understandable

>>15537450
This is called bourgeoisie conformism, don't mistake it for maturity. One big, walled in hypocrisy, that will eventually be undermined by exactly those problems you call immature or restricted to an age. System that enables pseudo-responsibilities, pseudo-involvement and pseudo-belonging will eventually leave you by yourself and then you will start navel-gazing.

>>15537504
holy shit someone actually believes this. What's your evidence for this?

>>15537299
nothing hard, he just sucks dude

>>15537450
you just listed today's most teen problems

>>15537592
Yes because teen problems revolve around responsibilities at work and in the political arena

>>15537504
Yeah I never understood these threads
>hurrrr one of the greatest authors of all time has an absolute shit prose
Could you imagine getting filtered by dosto? His works are so carefully woven together

>>15537499
Imo, the only parts where it gets genuinely obnoxious is the geographical description of Beleriand and whatever was that chapter with the recitation of all the houses of Men, or whatever, mainly because most of them never really mattered. On the other hand I think I can still recite the Noldor gang perfectly even today.
I mean, it's not a perfect book by far, but it really gets on my nerves when people overblow its complexity.

>>15537421
Personally I think the "ugliness" of his prose just makes it funnier and more compelling. I mean, in terms of dialogue at least, all of the ridiculous repetition and restlessness and clunkiness is far more interesting than Tolstoy and Turgenev. But perhaps it only works because of his emphasis on dialogue.

>>15537564
you have to be 18 to post here

>>15537563
Pls provide examples.

>>15537621
>is far more interesting than Tolstoy
I find it funny how only Dostoyevskiy, Tolstoy and Hugo, but all three to an equal extent, have ever managed to incite the "chin up chest out" spirits in me.

>>15537616
Wanna have some laughs? Google translate this.
https://telegra (dot) ph/YAd-Tolstogo-05-05
This is legit a genuine contender for the stupidest shit I've ever read or saw in my entire life, including way over a decade of browsing the imageboards.

>>15537703
Lmao what is this drek? Giving most people bachelors degrees was a mistake when all they do is shit out things like this.

>>15537590
read more, fag. there's so much written about dosto's works all at a click of your mouse but you'd rather drool and take the most basic and simplistic interpretation of art

>>15537758
It's these guys.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/09/04/the-hardcore-russian-neo-nazi-group-that-calls-ukraine-home/

>>15537788
>a self styled neo Nazi avant-garde
Wow that sounds really cool but they have such a shit take in that essay

>>15537771
There's no way of knowing this unless dosto himself said it

>>15537833
If stuff like this sound cool to you you non-ironically have some growing up to do. Besides, these particular people are completely fucking delusional. The take they have in this essay is not an exception of any sort, they really do think in this manner and it doesn't stop on just literature or just Russia.

>>15537215
this was me with The Idiot. just could not finish the last ≈200 pages.

>>15537898
>If stuff like this sound cool to you you non-ironically have some growing up to do
God I love people like you. You see someone who doesn’t fit into your hierarchical worldview and immediately Infantilize them. If there was a neo-Nazi avant-garde producing appropriately avant-garde works instead of their typical contemporary natsoc works they’re outputting that would be incredibly cool.

>>15537934
Dude, you have no idea what kind of a group of people you are talking about, you have zero clue who they are or what they stand for, yet they sound "cool" to you because of a six word long summary, despite the tone and substance of the linked essay should've clearly indicated to you they are not particularly, well how should I put it, sane people. Yet here you are judging them from the perspective of what kind of works they are able to produce, clearly thinking that they are some sort of harmless larping clowns like Varg Vikernes, Dmitry Enteo or Franchesca Ramsey (or idk who do americans have for a leftist larper).

>>15537996
>Yet here you are judging them from the perspective of what kind of works they are able to produce
Wow it’s almost like we’re on a discussion board for discussing works of literature you fucking idiot

>>15538022
And since we are on this board discussing this thing, I beg you to elaborate on how a group of people whose ideas are reflected in the aforementioned essay can be considered cool by anyone who's adult and not delusional?

>>15538058
>I beg you to elaborate on how a group of people whose ideas are reflected in the aforementioned essay can be considered cool by anyone who's adult and not delusional?
Sure, any time I see something that’s pure alterity I’m fundamentally drawn into trying to understand those works entirely on their own terms. Everyone’s first instinct, which you’ve displayed to the point of caricature is to reject them and maintain your worldview. Being presented with something so radically Other from what I am as a person is a great opportunity for the arts. Bataille wrote extensively about this, calling them limit experiences. But these guys are just more contemporary natsoc which is boring and overdone. I’d love to see truly avant-garde works from anyone.

>>15538080
>Sure, any time I see something that’s pure alterity I’m fundamentally drawn into trying to understand those works entirely on their own terms.
> I’d love to see truly avant-garde works from anyone.
Commendable, now what does the essay in question tells us about it?
>Everyone’s first instinct, which you’ve displayed
You once again fail to understand that this is not the first time I hear about them and that I'm already perfectly aware of who they are and what kind of work they put out.
>But these guys are just more contemporary natsoc which is boring and overdone.
So back to my original point now, how is it that someone who finds it cool doesn't have some growing up to do?

>>15537215
What? It's funny, definitely one of the best casts of characters in Dostoevsky's work second to Karamazov imo.

>>15538114
>So back to my original point now, how is it that someone who finds it cool doesn't have some growing up to do?
You might want to brush up on your reading comprehension Anon. I said that
> Wow that sounds really cool but they have such a shit take in that essay
So I actually agree with you that this particular group is rather unoriginal. But if there was a group that actually had neo Nazi avant-garde works they would be fundamentally fascinating.

>>15538128
I thought cool was referring to the group itself, not, like, literally the term alone that you quoted, my bad.