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15463336 No.15463336 [Reply] [Original]

>uses buddhist dialectics to defeat buddhism
>heh, nothing personnel kid

>> No.15463354
File: 9 KB, 275x183, laughing_Buddha.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15463354

>tries to refute Buddhism
>becomes Buddhism in the process

>> No.15463383

>>15463354
>becomes Buddhism in the process
More like a synthesis of buddhism and pre-existing advaita

>> No.15463500
File: 240 KB, 669x617, urbanite_buddhists.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15463500

Buddhism is the religion of the urbanite, then and now.

>> No.15463520

>>15463383
>pre-existing advaita
No such thing.

>> No.15463529

>>15463354
b a s e d

>> No.15463531
File: 260 KB, 1200x885, 1575149249834.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15463531

>>15463336
>valuing and reading secondary sources

a true plebbitor

>> No.15463607

>>15463520
Read the Upanishads and then come back here.

>> No.15463623

>>15463607
These Brahmin edits?

>> No.15463721

>>15463623
>brahmin edits
source?

>> No.15463862

>>15463607
Sorry no one can read the Upanishads now without Buddhist preconceptions.

I'd advice you to read the Upanishads commented on by Dvaita and Vishishtadvaita philosophers though to see how the Upanishads are read without the lens of Buddhist philosophy.

>> No.15463870

Wait so does the advaita vedanta promote reincarnation or not? I'm still confused on this

>> No.15463931

>>15463870
It teaches transmigration which is different, the subtle body transmigrates from body to body

http://turiya.vidya.hu/konyvtar/pdf/On%20the%20One%20and%20Only%20Transmigrant.pdf

>> No.15463941

>>15463870
Teaches the same sort of rebirth as the Buddhists as far as I can tell since Atman does not actually reincarnate.

>> No.15463954

>>15463941
It's different because the subtle body persists and continues throughout every life whereas Buddhists dont admit the continuance of anything which is the same every time but their idea is more of a constantly changing stream without any stable identity or nature

>> No.15463956

Can I get a quick rundown on why him taking influence from Buddhism makes him invalid?

>> No.15463961

>>15463956
It's just butthurt Buddhists who spam that as a cope because Buddhism looks like nonsensical garbage compared to Advaita

>> No.15463969

>>15463862
>Buddhist preconceptions
No such thing. Advaita was existing as an interpretation of the Upanishads before Gaudapada and Shankara, who only added their layer of buddhist exegesis on top of it an popularised the movement.

>> No.15463975

>>15463961
>butthurt Buddhists
I don't even think they're real buddhists.Likely retards that have become so enraged bu the guenonfagging that now just attack anything related to Shankara. Actual Buddhists don't give a shit about Advaita.

>> No.15463990
File: 379 KB, 1024x1365, 1024px-Luçay-le-Male_Temple_New_Mayapur_à_Château_d'Oublaise_Innen_Salle_a_Prière_Srila_Prabhupada_2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15463990

The virgin advita Vedanta vs the chad HAre Krishnas

>> No.15464000
File: 159 KB, 369x794, IMG_5465.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464000

>>15463969

>> No.15464007

>>15463956
So there's this dude the Buddha, right, he spends 40-45 years teaching, blah blah blah, some nerds come up with this system to break reality into discrete particles that are eternal, immortal, unconditioned, etc, a bunch of other nerds come along and say that no, that's wrong, culminating in Nagarjuna, who writes what amounts to Buddhism's Summa Theologica. This text is basically a rewording of what the Buddha says in the Pali Canon and other Sutras, and has a lot of arguments for Emptiness. He does spiritual battle with various sophists, and his response to all of them is some variation of
>Show me something that is immortal, unconditioned, eternal, unchanging
and
>if it can't change, it can't be interacted with, so it doesn't exist
(This gets into a debate about whether or not Nagarjuna "has a point" or if he's just swatting away wrong views; the dominant answer is the latter)

About 600 years later this dude Shankara sets out to retroactively BTFO Buddhism by attacking Nagarjuna. He can't argue against either of Nagarjuna's two weapons, so he basically just says
>Nagarjuna is right, there's no Selves. Everything is Empty. No Self to be found! Everything is impermanent. No Selves!
>Except there actually are Selves. Why? Because I said so.

That's basically it. Shankara is sort of important in Hindu philosophy, but he's a complete literally-who in Buddhism because he fails to actually deal with Nagarjuna and just resorts to "because I said so" as he can't provide evidence of some eternal thing existing nor can he demonstrate how a thing that doesn't change can interact with the world in order to even exist in the first place.

>> No.15464045

>>15464007

Great rundown

>> No.15464077

>>15464007
It should be noted that part of the reason that Shankara is ignored in Buddhism is that he actually appears in the beginning of what is a bit of a dark age for Buddhism, as Islamic invasion into Southern Asia started about a century before he was born. Buddhism had been waning in numbers in India for some time, due to a lack of royal patronage, and the Islamic invasion of what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan (which were the centers of Buddhism outside of China) completely destroyed one of its intellectual strongholds. There was basically no one left to argue with him in India.

The Theravadans in SEA and the Chinese Buddhist centers had no interest in arguing with some random Indian dude given that they had their own opponents to deal with, and by the time Asian Buddhism would re-establish contact with India it was more or less to just harvest whatever they could (Vajrayana Buddhism's "origin story" is basically adventurers grabbing texts and teachers from India and bringing them to Tibet) and abandon the subcontinent, so who cares what some random philosopher (now dead for centuries, with his own religion have moved passed him) had to say about Buddhism?

>> No.15464105

>>15463956
Both buddhist and upanishadic advaita evolved at the same time, as a sort of counterculture to the brahminic monopoly on religion. Accusing Shankara of using buddhist terminology holds no weight considering that Buddha himself most likely created his system by using a no-self exegesis on the early Upanishads.

>> No.15464131

>>15464007
>He does spiritual battle with various sophists,
Nagarjuna himself uses common sophist tactics in his works, as detailed in the excellent book "emptiness appraised"

> He can't argue against either of Nagarjuna's two weapons, so he basically just says
Shankara considered Nagarjuna to be below criticism, although he points out in his Brahma Sutra Bhasya that Madhyamaka doesn't offer sufficient proof of the unreality of everything and so there is no need to refute something which asserts such a foolish hypothesis without any proof for it
>Nagarjuna is right, there's no Selves. Everything is Empty. No Self to be found! Everything is impermanent. No Selves!
>Except there actually are Selves. Why? Because I said so.
You just wrote two different contradictory positions and ascribed them both to Shankara you dumbass, in actuality Shankara accepted that there was an eternal unconditioned Self, based on the primary Upanishads which all say so. The pre-Buddhist Brihadaranyaka Upanishad says that everything except the Self is perishable and so Shankara accepted this as well

>He is your Self, the Inner Controller, the Immortal. Everything else but Him is perishable
- Brihadaranyaka 3.7.16.

>but he's a complete literally-who in Buddhism
Not exactly, Bhavivkea attempted to refute Vedanta in some of his works and cites Gaudapada but Bhaviveka makes the mistake of attributing Bhedebheda Vedanta positions to Advaita in his works and so he fails to really refute anything but only attacks a confused morass of contradictory views that Bhaviveka put togather from different Vedanta schools. In one of the Dzogchen tantras too, I believe the Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra they felt the need for some reason to say that Advaita and Shankara are wrong and they mention them by name despite Vedanta having basically no presence in Tibet. Shankara was largely responsible gor vanquishing Buddhism from India through his incisive critiques and this was a traumatic experience that Buddhism has never really been able to recover from.

>> No.15464156

>>15463990
Shiva is the one Brahman. Krishna is merely an avatar of Vishnu the protector deity of the trimurti.

>> No.15464164

>>15464156
>Shiva is the one Brahman
This is as retarded as the ISKON position. Pure Brahman is satcitananda alone, the attributes that mold individual devas are just a manifestation of his energies, that must not be confused for the ultimate thing.

>> No.15464179
File: 11 KB, 548x368, 1565505629187.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464179

REMINDER THAT HINDUS ARE TOO RETARDED TO UNDERSTAND THIS

The Buddha said: “Monks, abandon what is not yours. Abandoning it will lead to benefit and happiness. Now, what is it that is not yours? Form is not yours; abandon it. Abandoning it will lead to benefit and happiness. Sensation, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness are not yours; abandon them. Abandoning them will lead to benefit and happiness.

“Here is an example: suppose someone were to cut down the grass, wood, branches, leaves, and foliage here in the Jeta forest, or were to take it away or burn it, or do whatever he wished with it. What do you think? Would you think, ‘That person is cutting us, or taking us away, or burning us, or doing whatever he wished with us’?”

The monks answered, “Of course not, Venerable Sir.”

“And why is that?”

“Because this forest, Venerable Sir, is not ourselves; nor does it belong to us.”

“In just the same way, abandon what is not yours. Abandoning it will lead to benefit and happiness. In just the same way, form is not yours; abandon it. Abandoning it will lead to benefit and happiness. Sensation, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness are not yours; abandon them. Abandoning them will lead to benefit and happiness.”


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

>> No.15464193
File: 35 KB, 457x600, 1570721768827.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464193

>>15464179
>Form is not yours; abandon it. Abandoning it will lead to benefit and happiness. Sensation, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness are not yours; abandon them. Abandoning them will lead to benefit and happiness.
Done.

>> No.15464203

>>15463336
Why is Hindu art so... weird looking? I can't put my finger on what it is that makes it look offputting.

>> No.15464202

>>15464179
>abandon what is not yours
How was this distorted to mean a non-self doctrine?

>> No.15464217
File: 30 KB, 400x225, p000025144.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464217

>>15464203
I agree. If they didn't have images and you went by the teachings alone it would be badass but then you see something like pic related and you're like, uh, I probably don't want to get involved with this.

>> No.15464221

>>15463623
The Upanishads were composed by Brahmins, they extensively reference and comment on Vedic rituals, sacrifices, Vedic Gods are used as characters in their parables, Rig-Veda mantras are cited in them and they constantly refer to Vedic cosmology. Only the Brahmins memorized the Vedas and so only the Brahmins would know enough Vedic lore to work so much of it into the Upanishads. Also, the Upanishads were for a long time secret texts transmitted as part of the orally-transmitted Vedas. Texts from a non-Brahman and non-Vedic source would never have been included into the oral transmission of the texts. Even in the 11th century they were still considered somewhat secretive/esoteric and the Muslim scholar/anthropoligist al-Biruni was unable to get anyone to divulge them to him.

>> No.15464226
File: 232 KB, 900x551, 1568953083505.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464226

>>15464007
this

But I'd also add to your post the fact that Shankara hasn't actually said much about Nagarjuna and his Madhyamaka but he simply slandered it as 'nihilism' (the same label other Hindus slap Advaita with btw), unfortunately for him Nagarjuna actually dealt with this accusation in detail since the same accusations of nihilism were leveled by his contemporaries and the later Yogacarins such as Asanga.

So either Shankara didn't bother reading Madhyamaka texts and just lazily parroted what other Buddhists have been saying, or he didn't want to shine too much light on Madhyamaka to the wider Hindu audience lest they reveal his overt plagiarism. In the end it didn't work out well for him anyway, Ramanuja and Madhva pretty much pointed out the crypto-buddhism of Advaita and destroyed their chances at monopolizing hindu thought (only neo-vedantists subscribe to Advaita).

>> No.15464238
File: 843 KB, 1630x1328, 1564209508488.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464238

>the picture that makes advaitins seethe

>> No.15464243

>>15464238
based

>> No.15464246

A question: you guys do know that both Advaita Vedanta and many forms of Buddhism are historical and human creations right? Do you only read them as philosophy or do you think they are some sort of revelation or primoridal tradition?

>> No.15464257
File: 713 KB, 1903x1844, 1568728304833.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464257

>>15464246
the schizo advaitin in these threads definitely subscribes to the latter no doubt about it

>> No.15464269

>>15464246

>Shankara was not in any sense the founder, discoverer, or promulgator of a new religion or philosophy; his great work as an expositor consisted in a demonstration of the unity and consistency of Vedic doctrine and in an explanation of its apparent contradictions by a correlation of different formulations with the points of view implied in them.

http://worldwisdom.com/uploads/pdfs/149.pdf

>> No.15464276

>>15464269
Advaita couldn't explain the shift from IE sacrificial based polytheism of the Vedas to the Buddhistic austerity of the Upanishads.

>> No.15464278

>>15464238
>advaitins
Advaita didn't start with Shankara.

>> No.15464282

>>15464276
>Buddhistic austerity of the Upanishads.
You mean austeric upanishadism of buddhism

>> No.15464287

>>15464278
Shankara couldn't explain the shift from IE sacrificial based polytheism of the Vedas to the Buddhistic austerity of the Upanishads.

>> No.15464294
File: 647 KB, 1020x756, 1576673302340.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464294

>>15464282

>> No.15464298

>>15464294
Not an argument.

>> No.15464303

>>15464287
>Buddhistic austerity of the Upanishads
From those Upanishads that predate Buddha with a century or two you mean?

>> No.15464314

>>15464276
Both Samkhya and Yoga predate Buddhism and there are hints of pre-Yogic austerities (tapas) in the Brahmanas.

>> No.15464336

>>15464314
>hints
I should say evidences.
>The Rishis, doubtless, were the vital airs: inasmuch as before (the existence of) this universe, they, desiring it, wore themselves out (rish) with toil and austerity, therefore (they are called) Rishis. (Satapatha Brahmana VI.1.1.1)
>Now this Person Pragâpati desired, 'May I be more (than one), may I be reproduced!' He toiled, he practised austerity. Being worn out with toil and austerity, he created first of all the Brahman (neut.), the triple science. It became to him a foundation: hence they say, 'the Brahman (Veda) is the foundation of everything here.' Wherefore, having studied (the Veda) one rests on a foundation; for this, to wit, the Veda, is his foundation. Resting on that foundation, he (again) practised austerity. (Satapatha Brahmana VI.1.1.8)

>> No.15464351

>>15464203
>>15464217

It does suck lol

>> No.15464379

>>15464276
Incorrect, Shankara explains repeatedly in his works that the Vedic texts (which includes the last layer, the Upanishads), dispense guidence in accordance with the various desires and motivations of those who approach them. For people who desire the aquisition of various results in the form of wealth, sons or heavens, the Vedas prescribe the rites one should carry out to obtain those results. For one who is desirous of liberation from samsara the Vedas impart instruction on how to attain this in the Upanishads. The earliest Upanishads predate Buddhism, and even in the pre-Upanishad portions of the Vedas the topics of all gods being one God, the notion of maya and the idea of there being one soul in all beings are all described, the Upanishads are just further elaborations on these ideas which already appear in the pre-Upanishad portions of the Vedas.

>> No.15464380

>>15464314
book 6 of the Rig veda
>So, Indra, form us brilliant holy singers for strength, for glory, and for food and riches.
>Give Bharadvāja hero patrons, Indra Indra, be ours upon the day of trial.
>With this may we obtain strength God-appointed, and brave sons gladden us through a hundred winters.

Chandogya upanishad disavowing rig vedic ritualism
>Now follows the Udgitha of the dogs: One day, Vaka Dalbhya (literally: sage who murmurs and hums), or as he was also called, Glava son of Mitra, went forth to study the Vedas. A white dog appeared before him. Other dogs, gathering around, said to him (i.e. the white dog): "Revered Sir, please sing for us, so we may obtain food; we are hungry." He (the white dog) said to them: "Come to me here tomorrow morning." Vaka Dalbhya, or as he was also called, Glava son of Mitra, kept watch. Just as the priests move along, holding to one another, when they are about to sing praises with the Vahishpavamana hymn so did the dogs move along. Then they sat down and uttered the syllable Him. Om. Let us eat! Om. Let us drink! Om. Let the sun, who is the luminous deity (deva), the giver of rain (Varuna), the lord of creatures (Prajapati), bring food here! Now a prayer to the sun: O lord of food, bring food here, bring it here. Om.

Shankara himself invalidates the vedic rituals and delegates it to a lower priority
>Shankara, in his text Upadesasahasri, discourages ritual worship such as oblations to Deva (God), because that assumes the Self within is different from the Brahman.[78]

Meanwhile he contradicts himself since he somehow upholds the authority of the Vedas
>Shankara considered the teachings in the Vedas and Upanishads as apta vacana (testimony of the past) and a valid source of knowledge.[101]

His own arguments contradict him, most Hindus know it, most scholars know it, everyone but Advaitins insist that he somehow solved the Upanishads-Vedas schism.

He's a fraud, get over it.

>> No.15464386

>>15464238
>not a single Upanishad quoted
>just dismisses pre-Gaudapada advaita developments because they don't fit the narrative
Why is this shit image parroted around here so obsessively?

>> No.15464393

>>15464386
>pre-Gaudapada advaita developments
no such thing, they are mostly lost to history, only advaitins claim the existence of an unbroken line of advaita gurus going back to the upanishads themselves which is just wishful thinking

>> No.15464419
File: 154 KB, 665x463, samkhya_as_preliminary_stage_to_buddhism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464419

Oh no no no...

>> No.15464420

>>15464380
>Shankara himself invalidates the vedic rituals and delegates it to a lower priority
>Meanwhile he contradicts himself since he somehow upholds the authority of the Vedas

Completely incorrect, Shankara says that this is the wrong thing to do *if you are seeking liberation*, if you are not seeking liberation this would be the proper conduct. Shankara states in his commentary on Isha Upanishad verse 8 that nothing enjoined by the Vedic scriptures can ever be unworthy of performance; however as Shankara points out the Upanishads say that if someone wants complete liberation from samsara one should move beyond rituals

>> No.15464432

>>15464386
It's one mentally-ill person

>> No.15464438
File: 174 KB, 665x427, samkhya_as_preliminary_stage_to_buddhism_2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464438

OH NO NO NO!

>> No.15464440

>>15464420
>however as Shankara points out the Upanishads say that if someone wants complete liberation from samsara one should move beyond rituals
Exactly, he's just agreeing with the Shramanistic nature of the Upanishads. He can't actually explain why the Upanishads moved away from the rigorous ritualism of the Vedas, he just gives a nod to them while pretending to abide by the authority of the Rig Veda.

>> No.15464441

>>15464380
>Shankara himself invalidates the vedic rituals and delegates it to a lower priority
>Meanwhile he contradicts himself since he somehow upholds the authority of the Vedas
There is no contradiction. The Vedas offer ways both for creating good karma (lower truth) and for liberation (higher truth), as he explained himself.
And no, the two truth doctrine is not original to Nagarjuna, it is already found in Mundaka Upanishad.

>> No.15464446

>>15464432
yea advaitafag does seem fucked in the head, you're right about that much.

>> No.15464461

>>15464446
>advaitafag
cringe bro

>> No.15464465

>>15464441
>And no, the two truth doctrine is not original to Nagarjuna, it is already found in Mundaka Upanishad.
of course it isn't, its original to Buddhism itself.

>The theory of the two truths has a twenty-five century long history behind it. It has its origin in the sixth century BCE[1]. In theory of the two truths, as we know it today, may be unknown to the earliest start of Buddhist thought in India. This distinction is however not entirely disconnected from the Buddha's teachings. The antecedent hermeneutic distinctions drawn in the Aṅguttara Nikāya (AN II.60) between two linguistic concepts (paññatti) – nitattha (Skt. nitārtha) and neyyatta (Skt. neyārtha) – provides us a useful insight into the rationale basis from which later develops the formulation of the two truths distinction. This latter pair of terms deals with the hermeneutic strategies explaining the purported meaning of the Buddhist scriptural statements. Nitattha is a statement the meaning of which is "drawn out" (nita-attha), definitive and explicit, taken as its stands, and neyyattha is a statement the meaning of which is "to be drawn out" (neyya-attha) and interpretive (Karunadasa, 1996: 25). The commentary (Aṅguttaranikāya Aṭṭhakatah II.118) on the Aṅguttara Nikāya II.60 explores nitattha/neyyattha distinction's connection with the sammuti/paramattha distinction. This simple heuristic device however stimulated rich philosophical exchanges amongst the Buddhist philosophers and practitioners, not to mention the exchanges with traditional Hindu thinkers. The exchange of different ideas and views of the two truths between the early Buddhists, among other factors, gave birth to Buddhism as the philosophy we know today
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-india/

>> No.15464469
File: 701 KB, 1903x2697, 1588219566430.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464469

>>15464461
yea I agree advaitafag is quite cringe

>> No.15464479

>>15464441
>The Vedas offer ways both for creating good karma (lower truth) and for liberation (higher truth), as he explained himself.
Except its mostly sacrificial ritualism and oblation offerings, which Shankara relegated to lower truth while pretending he was faithful to the word of the Vedas.

>> No.15464481

>>15464469
>every person on lit that discusses advaita is the same person.
Yeah bro, extremely cringe cope.

>> No.15464487

>>15464479
Being of the lower truth does not invalidate it, it just draws attention to their end purpose.

>> No.15464495

>>15464481
>same picture, same filename, same content, same posting style, same message
>'its not the same person uhhhhh c-cope'
lol

>> No.15464504

>>15464495
The person in your picture is the same one. But I don't see why you bring him into this thread tho.

>> No.15464509

I challenge any Advaitin to extract Advaita from this sukta of the Rig Veda and explain how it relates to the buddhistic nature of the Upanishads

>1. YOUR well-known prompt activities aforetime needed no impulse from your faithful servant.
>Where, Indra-Varuṇa, is now that glory wherewith ye brought support to those who loved you?
>2 This man, most diligent, seeking after riches, incessantly invokes you for your favour.
>Accordant, Indra-Varuṇa, with Maruts, with Heaven and Earth, hear ye mine invocation.
>3 O Indra-Varuṇa, ours be this treasure ours be wealth, Maruts, with full store of heroes.
>May the Varūtrīs with their shelter aid us, and Bhāratī and Hotrā with the Mornings.
>4 Be pleased! with our oblations, thou loved of all Gods, Bṛhaspati:
>Give wealth to him who brings thee gifts.
>5 At sacrifices, with your hymns worship the pure Bṛhaspati—
>I pray for power which none may bend—
>6 The Bull of men, whom none deceive, the wearer of each shape at will,
>Bṛhaspati Most Excellent.
>7 Divine, resplendent Pūṣan, this our newest hymn of eulogy,
>By us is chanted forth to thee.
>8 Accept with favour this my song, be gracious to the earnest thought,
>Even as a bridegroom to his bride.
>9 May he who sees all living things, see, them together at a glance,—
>May he, may Pūṣan be our help.
>10 May we attain that excellent glory of Savitar the God:
>So May he stimulate our prayers.
>11 With understanding, earnestly, of Savitar the God we crave
>Our portion of prosperity.
>12 Men, singers worship Savitar the God with hymn and holy rites,
>Urged by the impulse of their thoughts.
>13 Soma who gives success goes forth, goes to the gathering place of Gods,
>To seat him at the seat of Law.
>14 To us and to our cattle may Soma give salutary food,
>To biped and to quadruped.
>15 May Soma, strengthening our power of life, and conquering our foes,
>In our assembly take his seat.
>16 May Mitra-Varuṇa, sapient Pair, bedew our pasturage with oil,
>With meatb the regions of the air.
>17 Far-ruling, joyful when adored, ye reign through majesty of might,
>With pure laws everlastingly.
>18 Lauded by Jamadagni's song, sit in the place of holy Law:

Protip: you can't

>> No.15464516

its all brahmanism you morons, the distinctions between schools as 'hinduism' and 'buddhism' are spurious. guenonfag didn't die for this

>> No.15464518
File: 483 KB, 1880x2623, 1587108923847.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464518

>>15464226
Yep, I always remind e-Hindus about it yet they can't seem to understand that Shankara was pretty much cancelled by most Hindus.

>> No.15464521
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15464521

>>15464481
t.

>> No.15464539
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15464539

>>15464518
>that debunked photo again
Oof

>> No.15464548

What's a good English translation of the Rig Veda? The one that is easiest to get is Wendy Doniger's and I'm weary of that.

>> No.15464551
File: 2.21 MB, 1450x5947, 1570580006064.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464551

>>15464539
it makes you seethe doesn't it?

>> No.15464564
File: 136 KB, 782x894, 1578645935554.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464564

>oh no no no no

>> No.15464572
File: 136 KB, 633x758, 1575237131351.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464572

>advaita drones ITT rn

>> No.15464578

>>15464551
>fanatically posts the pictures that people have already debunked
>makes you seethe doesn't it?
embarassing.

>> No.15464581

Where do the Jains fit into this Indian religious fight

>> No.15464588

>>15464548
If you are willing to spend the money, the one by Jamison and Brereton

>> No.15464602

>>15464581
They don't, really. This retarded fight is about what Buddhism adopted from the Upanishads and what the Upanishads adopted from the Vedas.

>> No.15464603
File: 110 KB, 500x440, 1563206568051.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464603

>>15464578
keep crying lol, shankara remains a plagiarizer

>> No.15464606

>>15464539
This doesn't debunk anything. It's some random dude on the internet quoting English translations he likes. Not even a good cope.

>>15464551
He admitted in the other thread it makes him mad.

>> No.15464614

>>15464603
>still posts recycled images
as i said, embarassing.

>> No.15464620

>Advaita derives from the rig ve-

1. THIS Agni is the Lord of great felicity and hero Strength;
Lord of wealth in herds of kine; Lord of the battles with the foe.
2 Wait, Maruts, Heroes, upon him the Prosperer in whom is bliss-increasing wealth;
Who in fights ever conquer evil-hearted men, who overcome the enemy.
3 As such, O Agni, deal us wealth and hero might, O Bounteous One!
Most lofty, very glorious, rich in progeny, free from disease and full of power.
4 He who made all that lives, who passes all in might, who orders service to the Gods,
He works among the Gods, he works in hero strength, yea, also in the praise of men.
5 Give us not up to indigence, Agni, nor want of hero sons,
Nor, Son of Strength, to lack of cattle, nor to blame. Drive. thou our enemies away.
6 Help us to strength, blest Agni! rich in progeny, abundant, in our sacrifice.
Flood us with riches yet more plenteous, bringing weal, with high renown, most Glorious One!

>> No.15464621

>>15464581
They were like an early proto-version of Buddhism, which may have arose some time between the earliest Upanishads and the rise of Buddhism. There are some arguments recorded between Jains and Hindus/Buddhists in their various texts, although the very serious asceticism demaned by Jainism sort of relegated it to being something that never had very widespread appeal, it has continuously existed in India from at least the 7th-6th century BC until now but was mostly in the background compared to other schools

>> No.15464625

>>15464226
Any idea what the devanagari in that image means?

>> No.15464630

>>15464620
>>Advaita derives from the rig veda
Noone ever claimed that. We are discussing upanishads here.

>> No.15464634

i see that all these retarded no soul theravadins are finally being cleansed from this board, between this thread and the other one. no longer will they insult the logical system of advaita or misrepresent the Buddha

>> No.15464636

>guenonfag's new thing is "stop parroting/recycling"
>any time he has a new thing he has to say it 500 times, no ability to be subtle
>no sense of the irony that he is infamous for posting the same threads/pics 10,000,000 times either

please god tell me you're back and posting regularly again, you're the most entertaining cringefest on /lit/

>> No.15464642
File: 17 KB, 840x174, 1575978132947.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15464642

>>15464606
>He admitted in the other thread it makes him mad.
oh yea that's right he did admit to that, the word really grinds his gears and I thank Ramanuja for coming up with it

>> No.15464643

>>15464588
>Jamison and Brereton
That price, ouch.
How's about the Griffith and Keith one?

Hell, just a nice list of non-Doniger-tier translations for various Dharmic texts would be nice.

>> No.15464652

>>15464643
I'm sure you can find modern English translations up in libgen

>> No.15464655

>>15464636
How many posts have you made about him in this thread so far, like 20? Just admit that you are obsessed with him man, it's embarrassing to watch

>> No.15464671

Remember folks, this is considered the highest authority of Hinduism

1. DULY enkindled after ancient customs, bringing all treasures, he is balmed with unguents,—
Flame-haired, oil-clad, the purifying Agni, skilled in fair rites, to bring the Gods for worship.
2 As thou, O Agni, skilful Jātavedas, hast sacrificed as Priest of Earth, of Heaven,
So with this offering bring the Gods, and prosper this sacrifice today as erst for Manu.
3 Three are thy times of life, O Jātavedas, and the three mornings are thy births, O Agni.
With these, well-knowing, grant the Gods’ kind favour, and help in stir and stress the man who worships.
4 Agni most bright and fair with song we honour, yea, the adorable, O Jātavedas.
Thee, envoy, messenger, oblation-bearer, the Gods have made centre of life eternal.
5 That Priest before thee, yet more skilled in worship, stablished of old, health-giver by his nature,—
After his custom offer, thou who knowest, and lay our sacrifice where Gods may taste it.

Advaitins still couldn't point out the Advaita within the Rig Veda after 3 suktas posted

>> No.15464679

>>15463862
Based. What a shame that hinduboos distort the Upanishads with their protestantized and buddhist influenced Advaita, and try to convince interested people that this is the only interpretation. Ramanuja is much richer.

>>15463956
See >>15464238 >>15464551
It doesn't make him invalid, it makes shallow wikipedia reading internet advaitins mad. Real advaitins don't care.

>> No.15464681

>>15464671
>Advaita within the Rig Veda
Noone claimed that retard. Go back.

>> No.15464689

>>15464671
This is why actual Hindus consider Shankara heretical. Even guenonfag denied the revealed nature of sruti in this thread. Even Shankara is not stupid enough to say this directly, he only hints at it because he knows it's taking his cryptobuddhist epistemology too far to full-on deny revelation.

>> No.15464704

>>15464246
Guenonfag's hallmark is that he promotes whatever is convenient and whatever he can get away with at the time. He'll abandon positions he held dearly yesterday. He has no convictions. Real practitioners and people knowledgeable about advaita have mocked him for this and he says he's "just funposting" and calls them autistic.

>> No.15464707

>>15464679
>It doesn't make him invalid
Isn't that the point of those pics tho?

>> No.15464713

>>15464681
pretty sure he claimed it when he made that challenge

>> No.15464740

>>15464419
>>15464438
Buddhafags can't respond to this

>> No.15464760

>>15464707
Why would it be? Those pics only show that Shankara took Buddhism, gave it some Upanishad sprinkles and called it Advaita. That doesn't mean the philosophy is right or wrong. Why would Buddhists invalidate their own philosophy by attacking Shankara's use of it?

>> No.15464822

>>15464760
>That doesn't mean the philosophy is right or wrong
Actually it does because advaita is not a mere secular "philosophy"as you seem to think. It claims to be an orthodox exegesis of the Vedanta based on the authority of the Brahmanical scriptures and priestly tradition. If you admit that you got it from a heterodox sect you invalidate your whole claim. You can't separate one thing from the other.

>> No.15464856

>>15464822
>If you admit that you got it from a heterodox sect
That's just Shankara's addition to the already existing advaita current. You can at most consider Shankara's writings as heterodox, but advaita existed long before him.

>> No.15464888

>>15464856
By heterodox sect I meant Buddhism

>> No.15464958

What does the Buddha say about suicide?

>> No.15464995

>>15464958

That it's dumb since you can just yeet suffering anyways

>> No.15465006

>>15464509
>>15464620
>>15464671

Calm down anon, here are some examples of Advaitic teachings being found in the pre-Upanishad portions of the Vedas

>"By knowing Brahman one attains immortality here. There is no other way to its attainment"
- Taittiriya Aranyaka 6.1.6.

"In every figure he hath been the mode, this is his only form for us to look on. Indra moves multiform by his maya; for his Bay steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred"
- Rig Veda 6.47.18.

"Lord of creation! no other than thee pervades all these that have come into being"
- Rig Veda 10.121.10

"This Purusa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be; the Lord of immortality which waxes greater still by food. So mighty is his greatness; yea greater than this is Purusa. All creatures are one-forth of him, three-forths eternal life in heaven."
- Rig Veda 10.90.2-4

"This very God pervadeth all the regions; yea, born aforetime, in the womb he dwelleth. He verily born and to be born hereafter meeteth his offspring, facing all directions"
- White Yajur Veda 32.4

"I know this mighty Purusa whose colour is like the sun, beyond the reach of darkness. He only who knows him leaves death behind him. There is no path save this alone to travel. In the womb Prajapati: he, never becoming born, is born in sundry figures. The wise discern the womb from which he springeth. In him alone stand all existing creatures".
- White Yajur Veda 31.18-19.

"The brilliant presence of the Gods hath risen, the eye of Mitra, Varuna and Agni. The soul of all that moveth not or moveth, the Sun hath filled the air and earth and heaven.
- Rig Veda 1.115.1.

"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman. To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan"
- Rig Veda 1.164.46.

"Without any want, contemplative, immortal, self-originated, sufficed with a quintessence, lacking in naught whatever: lie who knoweth that constant, ageless, and ever-youthful Spirit, knoweth indeed himself, and feareth not to die"
- Arthava Veda 10.8.44

>> No.15465010

>>15464995
So is buddhism just a way to feel smart?

>> No.15465027

>>15463500
Good. Since the first cities were built the people "living" outside of them were dumb and violent subhumans, ancestors of the modern suburbanites.

>> No.15465070

>>15465006
/thread

>> No.15465087

ease of living

>> No.15465448

>>15465006
>no replies
The buddhist fears this post.

>> No.15465573

>>15464509
I don't get it. Why is this supposed to refute Advaita?

>> No.15465586

>>15463500
no wonder they started hating life

>> No.15465716

>>15464393
>no such thing, they are mostly lost to history
Incorrect, it's long been well known that there were various Advaitins before Shankara and even Gaudapada. The 5th century Grammarian Bhartrhari was an Advaitist, although of a different sort than Shankara; Ramanuja's teacher Yamuna also refers to Bhartrhari as a pre-Shankara Advaitin. Mandana Misra was another Advaitin who was roughly contemporous with or slightly older than Shankara. Kashkrtsna who is mentioned in the Brahma Sutras may have been an Advaitin. There are also Dravidacarya and Tanka who are claimed by both Advaita and Vishishtadvaita, they were obviously non-dualists of some sort; Shankara quotes Dravidacarya to the effect that "The validity of the scriptures is derived from their negation of qualities from the Atman". The teacher Badari quoted in the Brahma Sutras also had multiple Advaita-like positions. Shankara in his Brahma Sutra commentary follows the earlier commentary of Upavarsha who Shankara refers to as Bhagavan and who was likely an Advaitist of some sort as well. The pre-Shankara scholar Brahmadatta was another pre-Shankara Advaitin, Shankara critiques some of his ideas even though he was a mayavadin according to Nakamura. And this is not even to get into the countless anonymous texts predating Shankara such as the Puranas which in certain sections mention non-dualism and maya.

>> No.15465788

>>15465716
>A Protestant theologian claims that the church was always protestant and Catholics have it all wrong

You don't say. Too bad academia and philology unilaterally disagree with you.

>> No.15465792

>>15465010

Nah, it's a way to feel chill

>> No.15465799

>>15465448
The Buddhist fears some American cherry picking quotes from an English translation of texts he's never read? Not sure why.

Good thing it's not just Buddhists though, it's unanimous in scholarship that Advaita is effectively buddhism superficially wrapped in references to the Upanishads. Most Hindus think this as well, which is why they came up with the term crypto-buddhist for Shankara's advaita right after he wrote it.

>> No.15465841

>>15465799
you are like a broken record my man

>> No.15465859

>>15465841
You admitted it bothers you to be called a crypto-buddhist. Now it's not only true and informative to say that advaita is crypto-buddhism, it's fun too!

>> No.15466242

>>15465799
>unanimous in scholarship
>ignores other competing sources cited
Easy on the autism, bro.

>> No.15466262

>>15465799
>THERE IS NO ADVAITA IN HINDUISM
>is presented with proto-advaitic verses in the veda
>NOOOO YOU FIRTHY AMERICAN CHERRYPICKING

>> No.15466298

>>15465799
You are dishonest and also disgusting.

>> No.15466364

>>15466242
None have been. Do you mean Robinson, who says Advaita is heavily influenced by Buddhism and modern advaitafags are known for distorting all of Indian tradition to be a precursor to Advaita? You used to love him, what happened?

>>15466262
>Precursors to Mormonism exist in the Bible so the Bible is Mormon!

That's stupid. Also stop samefagging.

>> No.15466371

>>15464246
The only true primordial tradition is Mimamsa

>> No.15466589

>>15466364
>Bible is Mormon!
Nobody in this thread claimed that the entire vedic history is advaita. Any advaitin acknowledges the dvaita and visishtadvaita interpretations as coexisting with advaita. You fags constantly claim that advaita is somehow Shankara's invention, and the verses above contradict that.

>> No.15466793

>>15465716
>uhhh actually this guy technically was an advaitin, m-maybe that person was also some sort of mayavadist, i-i-f you look closely advaita is mentioned here and there
Lol this is all just pure speculation. Nakamura homself admits that knowledge of a standalone advaita tradition is lost to history. You are simply retroactively claiming figures to abide by Shankara's system.

>> No.15466798

>>15466793
>Nakamura homself admits that knowledge of a standalone advaita tradition is lost to history

this is his favorite thing to do, use sources extremely selectively and then deny they're valid sources when they say things that contradict him

face it guenonfag, nobody except you and a few other white schuonians

>> No.15466804

>>15466798
>face it guenonfag, nobody except you and a few other white schuonians thinks this

fixed

>> No.15467237

>>15465006
>Calm down anon, here are some examples of Advaitic teachings being found in the pre-Upanishad portions of the Vedas
Wait what happened to ‘no one claimed Advaita from the Rig Veda’? Were you really so butthurt about 99% of the Vedas being detached from Advaita that you had to spend some time cherry picking monist verses that actually have nothing to do with advaita? lol the life of a dogmatic advaitin must be rough, I bet you lose sleep.

>> No.15467778

>>15467237
>Wait what happened to ‘no one claimed Advaita from the Rig Veda’?
I wasn't the person who wrote that, but since you were being obnoxious and made three increasingly hysterical posts (all talking to yourself as you love to do for some weird reason) about that subject I decided to show that you were wrong.

>> No.15467833

>>15467778
>guenonfag accusing others of talking to themselves

best schizo in /lit/ history as i said

>> No.15467837

>>15464572
based

>> No.15467902

>>15467833
have you ever considered how unhinged it makes you look when you make 20-30 posts about guenonchad in every single thread about eastern philosophy that appears on this board?

>> No.15467931

>>15467902
have you ever considered that /lit/ is a relatively small board and especially within a specific interest there will be a smallish number of people, small enough to remember you and occasionally comment on you

go post your nude chestlet/leglet body again and keep reposting it in "/lit/ meme threads" as if it's another person organically reposting you you fucking weirdo, then make more posts wondering why other anons start to recognize you as that one weirdo who does weird shit. here's a tip, if any time you post you are recognized and mocked by many for being a faggot, you might actually just be a bit of a faggot.

>> No.15468001

>>15467931
you are sooooo obsessed, what is the reason for it? I just don't get it

>> No.15468271

>>15464203
it's just some modern mainstream vaishnavi style
makes everything look like inflated balloons
plenty of art styles within hinduism though

>> No.15468347

>>15464625
>yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā yā śūnyatā...
'what is form is emptiness what is emptiness is form' something something

>> No.15468573

>>15465006
>Arthava Veda

>The text is the fourth Veda, but has been a late addition to the Vedic scriptures of Hinduism.

i love how white hindus are still pieces of shit

>> No.15468612

The ancient Indian tradition initially recognized only three Vedas.[5][27] The Rigveda, the verse 3.12.9.1 of Taittiriya Brahmana, the verse 5.32-33 of Aitareya Brahmana and other Vedic era texts mention only three Vedas.[3] The acceptance of the Atharvanas hymns and traditional folk practices was slow, and it was accepted as another Veda much later than the first three, by both orthodox and heterodox traditions of Indian philosophies. The early Buddhist Nikaya texts, for example, do not recognize Atharvaveda as the fourth Veda, and make references to only three Vedas.[28][29] Olson states that the ultimate acceptance of Atharvaveda as the fourth Veda probably came in the 2nd half of the 1st millennium BCE.[27] However, notes Max Muller, the hymns of Atharvaveda existed by the time Chandogya Upanishad was completed (~700 BCE), but were then referred to as "hymns of Atharvangirasah".[30]

Frits Staal states that the text may be a compilation of poetry and knowledge that developed in two different regions of ancient India, the Kuru region in northern India and the Pancalas region of eastern India.[5] The former was home to Paippalāda, whose name was derived from the sacred fig tree named Pippala (Sanskrit: पिप्पल). This school's compositions were in the Rigvedic style.[5] The Pancalas region contributions came from composer-priests Angirasas and Bhargavas, whose style was unlike the metric Rigvedic composition, and their content included forms of medical sorcery. The Atharvaveda editions now known are a combination of their compositions.[5]

The core text of the Atharvaveda falls within the classical Mantra period of Vedic Sanskrit, during the 2nd millennium BC - younger than the Rigveda, and roughly contemporary with the Yajurveda mantras, the Rigvedic Khilani, and the Sāmaveda.[31] There is no absolute dating of any Vedic text including the Atharvaveda.[8] The dating for Atharvaveda is derived from the new metals and items mentioned therein; it, for example, mentions iron (as krsna ayas, literally "black metal"), and such mentions have led the scholars to the estimate that the Atharvaveda hymns were compiled in the early Indian Iron Age, c. 1200 to 1000 BC,[8][32] corresponding to the early Kuru Kingdom.[33]

>> No.15469448

>>15468573
>the vedas were not all written at the same time and some ideas developed later than others
>THEREFORE ADVAITA FAKE
dude, stop being mentally retarded in every thread.