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/lit/ - Literature


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15455189 No.15455189 [Reply] [Original]

I often see criticism of Mahayana as being hinduism or an innovation to Buddhism has anyone defended Mahayana against Theravada?

What are some criticism of Theravada

>> No.15455228

Mahayana often refer to Theravada as Hinayana (small cart). Their position isn't one of trying to BTFO of Theravada, but rather viewing it as the least of the three paths. If you want to aim for being an arahat and get off the ride ASAP then Hinayana is there for you, but Mahayana is about taking the Bodhisattva path and universal liberation.

>> No.15455355
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15455355

>>15455228
>universal liberation

>> No.15455422

>>15455355
Is that you? Small mouth.

>> No.15455448

>>15455189
The basic response to Theravadan criticism is that all their objections can be applied to them by an outsider. Why should we believe that they accurately reflect the teachings of the Buddha? And interestingly the oldest known Buddhist text is actually mahayana.

>> No.15455488

>>15455448
>The basic response to Theravadan criticism is that all their objections can be applied to them by an outsider.
I'm not sure I understand, would you be able to elaborate by providing some examples?

>Why should we believe that they accurately reflect the teachings of the Buddha? And interestingly the oldest known Buddhist text is actually mahayana.
source?

>> No.15455515

the whole theravadin "no self" garbage makes enlightenment impossible. it is nihilism

>> No.15455519

>>15455189
>>What are some criticism of Theravada
the usual relying on commentaries, like the vipassana tradition.
It is the same with Mahayana but worse. Mahayana is a footnote to the abidhamma by the Sarvastivadins.
their view is that they started writing their sutras in 100BC, but on degradable material, so they can't be found today.

It is also not clear who came first between the jains, buddhists and hindus.
The current view is that hindus came first and buddhists and jains came just after, with the hindus being butthurt that they were 100% rituals and sacrifices so they had to adapt change their texts, like not killing animal for merit nor nirvana.

The brahmins in buddhist sutras are not really the hindus. Just some random ascetics. With the sutras dealing with the hindus having strange theme, like the Viññanam anidassanam or luminous consciousness.
Then there is also the conflict between monks in the forest and monks in the city, with the monks in the city writing the sutras. Some say devatta was nicer in the parallel sutras and vinayas, and only in theravada he is evil.


The jains have no texts at all, but some rules in the vinaya, like the non taking of fruits for monks, is like the jains.

>> No.15455523

>>15455519
>their view
the theravadin view

>> No.15455528

>>15455189
Christianity, Hinduism, Islam.. shows you the way to Heavens
although going to Heavens is a bliss, its joy is not permanent. if you use too much merit there, you can still go back to the reincarnation of Hell, Devil, Animal, Asura, Human,.. aka moving in the Samsara-the cycle of birth and death, and keep suffering

Buddhism shows you the way to escape Samsara, escape the cycle of birth and death and escape all sufferings completely.
you can get to Nirvana in two ways:
1. fast: practice the teaching in Theravada, help yourself and a limited amount of people, this could take one life, two life, or over thousand lives
2. slow: practice the teaching of Bodhisattva Way (Mahayana) to become a Buddha, with the average time of 3 Asamkhyeya Kalpas (uncountable amount of time, and uncountable loops of birth and death) by helping all beings escape the Samsara.

in Mahayana, there are two cheat sheets called Vajrayana and Pure Land Buddhism.

You can practice Vajrayana Buddhism by chanting the Mantras, like the Tibetans do. the Mantras will help shorten the cultivating time for you. have a try of 'Great Compassion Mantra' and 'Cunde Mantra'

or you can practice the Pure Land school teaching by chanting 'Namo Amita Buddha'. Amita has made a great vow that anyone who chant his name 10 times before death with focus will be reborn in his great land of Ultimate Bliss. in this great Pure Land, you will have all supports to become a Buddha, or say, you will definitely become a Buddha once being reincarnated into the Pure Land

>> No.15455532

>>15455519
>The brahmins in buddhist sutras are not really the hindus. Just some random ascetics
where can i learn more on this?

>> No.15455543

>>15455519
>The current view is that hindus came first and buddhists and jains came just after
Jains actually predate buddhists by a while

>> No.15455558

>>15455532
The brahmins who recite the Vedas are priests, they aren't some random acetics. This is what Hinduism is for most indians. The acetics who seek moksha aren't that many.

>> No.15455561

>>15455519
OH NO NO NO NO NO NO

>> No.15455562

>>15455515
It's the opposite, but you can't understand it until you stop remaining a puthujjana, and you can't talk yourself out of it through reasoning.

>> No.15455566
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15455566

What do bodhisattvas do all day?

>> No.15455577

>>15455515
>buddhism is nihilism!
>oh no I'm not going to explain why its nihilism I'm just going to say it is like a forced meme

>> No.15455586 [DELETED] 

so, what exactly happens once you achieve Buddhahood? just float around and hang out with other buddhas?

>> No.15455588

>>15455562
The no self doctrine is illogical. They claim consciousness is just one of several mental aggregates and once you destroy them all you attain nibbana. No Buddhist has actually attempted to destroy his skandhas, they just talk about it like philosophy. The error is making consciousness into another aggregate, when it is consciousness that is what is to be liberated. Buddhism doesn't lead to liberation because it is a false teaching.

>> No.15455596

>>15455515
mayahanis also subscribe to no self, except they call it emptiness, dharmakaya or tathagatagarbha

>> No.15455598

>>15455588
>Buddhism doesn't lead to liberation because it is a false teaching.
damn nigga, whats the true teaching then?
>inb4 cuckistianity

>> No.15455601

>>15455532
for the caricature of the brahmins
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/brahmins-in-buddhisms/15905/4
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/what-did-the-brahmins-believe/15250/11

I don't think there is a whole book about this. Perhaps this https://books.google.com/books?id=0OF5DwAAQBAJ
the major problem with the word brahmin in the sutta is that it means lots of thing, most of the time having nothing to with the vedas. just some generic dudes trying to be enlightened, more or less living in the forest.
You'd really need to survey all the references to Brahmins in the suttas, and form a view based on that. Looking at the search results for "Brahmins" from Sutta Central, it could take quite a while! Though you could probably get an impression quite quickly by having a browse.

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Brahmins

>> No.15455602

>>15455598
he's gonna say some form of non dual hinduism (aka crypto-buddhism)

>> No.15455607

>>15455543
The jains really fucked up with their loss of texts.

>> No.15455610
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15455610

>>15455519
>with the hindus being butthurt that they were 100% rituals and sacrifices so they had to adapt change their texts, like not killing animal for merit nor nirvana

This is simply not true, in fact most of the major teachings of Buddhism appeared first in the pre-Buddhist Upanishads (pic related). Also, the pre-Buddhist Chandogya Upanishad condemns the injuring or killing of animals aside from the special circumstance of Vedic sacrifices in verse 8.15.

>> No.15455618

>>15455610
And the vedas predate the commentaries.

>> No.15455629

>>15455532
I mean, the very last section of the Dhammapada lays out what would come to be the Buddhist view on the matter. It is the part where Buddha gives a long list to the effect of "Whoever does X, and Y, and Z is a true Brahamin".

>> No.15455632

>>15455562
>>15455596
>>15455577

'no self' doctrine is nihilism, yes. buddhist does not necessarily equal good. and nobody is going to fall for these 'no u' bullshit games, most mahayana sects are in agreement that there is an unconditioned self behind the appearances of form/emptiness, and the goal of enlightenment is to identify with that unconditioned self. the aggregated forms that we experience are 'not self', not 'no self'

>> No.15455633

>>15455607
true but the first tirthankara of jainism (basically founder) is mentioned in the rig veda book 10, which predates the buddha by a few centuries

>> No.15455636

>>15455632
>the goal of enlightenment is to identify with that unconditioned self
nope, read more sutras worldling

>> No.15455637

>>15455566
Help other beings become Bodhisattvas. They also apparently drink tea, or at least can drink tea, as Red Pine's commentary on the Heart Sutra elaborates.

>>15455586
In this life, or after death? In this life, you just continue as a human, but having understood that there's no you, generating no karma (in certain schools it's possible to backslide). The Buddha spent 40-45 years in this state after his enlightenment under the bodhi tree. It's basically being human, but eternally blissful and near omniscient. After death, you achieve Nirvana, which is more or less indescribable in a way that matters (you can't describe sight to the blind). The Mind Like Fire Unbound is an essay by Thanissaro Bhikku covering the Pali Canon's treatment of Nirvana, focused on the Buddha's usage of the metaphor of fire and the cessation of fire as being akin to the mind and Nirvana.

Nirvana is often translated as "blowing out" in reference to fire, and while that's true in the sense of fire it's more accurately "unbinding", because the Ancient Indians did not see fire as we do now. Fire exists as a pure potentiality everywhere and nowhere; it's in everything, but not found in anything. Even water, rocks, etc. It's only when this potentiality is clung to something (fuel) that it is brought into this world, where it exists as fire until it runs out of fuel and thus stops clinging. The line the Buddha asks is "so when the fire goes out, where does it go? East, west, north, south?". It doesn't "go" anywhere, it returns to its pure state of freedom, free from all bounds and limits, even conceptual ones. That's Nirvana: total freedom. Not 100% clear? Achieving this state so you can know for yourself is literally the point of Buddhism, so yes, that should be the case. The Buddha was always telling those listening to try this stuff out for yourself, and see if it makes things better; try it, and see what happens.

>>15455588
>No Buddhist has actually attempted to destroy his skandhas
Well yeah, there aren't any Skandhas to destroy, they're Empty. Realizing this, and coming to understand it, is the point of being a Monk. You can get mad that there are Buddhists on here who don't agree with your weird dualistic guenon inspired Ken Wheeler pop advaita vedanta or whatever, but you can't seriously be arguing that there aren't Buddhists monks out there in the world, right? Right?

>> No.15455649

>>15455632
>most mahayana sects are in agreement that there is an unconditioned self behind the appearances of form/emptiness
No, they aren't. At all. Not only is this not what the Buddha taught (he's pretty clear about Not-Self), but it's also not what the Mahayana believes. It's also not what the Theravada believes.

Do I have to post the Heart Sutra? The Sutra that literally defines the Mahayana view on the matter? The one Sutra that literally every Mahayana Buddhist school, doctrine, lineage, and tradition says is the summation of their views? The one that explicitly affirms Not-Self? It fits in a 4chan post, you know.

>> No.15455655

>>15455228
>universal liberation

>> No.15455662

Theravada appeals to Westerners who approach Buddhism with Protestantism as their default concept of religion, with its emphasis on a personal reading of the original scripture and a rejection of what they identify as a posteriori additions (whether text, praxy, etc) to what is canonical. This essentially assumes the Pali Canon is 'the original word of God' preserved in amber and that Sri Lanka and Thailand have maintained it such that one can pick it up from there and become a true Buddhist (not like those other Buddhists in China or Tibet or Japan, who are wrong). Of course the Pali Canon was compiled hundreds of years after the Buddha died and under the influence of powerful temporal government, and Mahayana uses many of the same sources it does in its own assembly of texts and commentaries, and East Asia received its transmission of Buddhism from India just as Thailand and Sri Lanka, but these details are not relevant to the hyperprotestant convert whose concept of religion requires he be a Theravadin. The dialectic introduced by Nagarjuna to overcome substance, or the phenomenology of Yogacara are written off, enmeshed as they are in traditions which also follow buddhabhakti or the worship of saints (which are stinky Asian catholicisms, yikes!). In truth one should read as much of the extant traditions as they can and not import their judgments from the abortion of a religious context we call contemporary Western.

>> No.15455663

>the older the better
>muh original
keep these abrahamic notions of fallen nature and true teachings revealed on specific historical moments out of buddhism pls.

>> No.15455664
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15455664

>>15455655

>> No.15455679

>>15455618
Yes, the earliest parts of the Vedas are roughly a millenium before the Upanishads. The primary Upanishads are not simply just commentaries on the Vedas though, they are held by Hindus to be revealed texts and they describe themselves as such. When you actually read them it's clear they are not commentaries per se and the Vedas are only mentioned on occasion in them instead of the Vedas being the main focus of their discussions as they would if the Upanishads were simply commentary.

>> No.15455684

>>15455637
>Well yeah, there aren't any Skandhas to destroy, they're Empty

The error is identifying consciousness as merely a skandha to be extinguished like the others. Consciousness can't be destroyed, it is what is liberated from the false self.

>dualistic guenon inspired Ken Wheeler pop advaita vedanta
Actually it's basic Hindu response to Buddhist heresy

> you can't seriously be arguing that there aren't Buddhists monks out there in the world, right?
Where did I say that ? There are Christian monks too. But what they do doesnt lead anywhere.

>> No.15455685

>>15455655
Is this the first you have heard of the Bodhisattva vow?

>> No.15455689

>>15455528
>OOOOOOOMMMMM BUDDHA PLEASE GET ME INTO POST-SAMSARIC HEAVEN OOOOOMMMM NAMO AMIDA FUTO
why do people shit on Theravada again?

>> No.15455690

>>15455664
All universalist religions end up the same. Well-intended, "spiritual" white people try to help violent world savages, who only want to steal their stuff and indulge in material pleasure, and end up getting fucked in the process.

>> No.15455691
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15455691

>>15455684
t.

>> No.15455692

>>15455636

a great guru like you shouldn't be giving out worthless responses like that

>>15455649

you drop that in an attempt to feel smart, but the heart sutra discusses the unreality of forms, i.e everything that we experience that is conditioned, temporary, the form itself is emptiness and unreal, not the substrate behind it

>> No.15455694

>>15455690
ok poltard, we get it you hate blacks

>> No.15455697

>>15455690
Third world savages

>> No.15455700
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15455700

>a great guru like you shouldn't be giving out worthless responses like that

>> No.15455704

>>15455694
I'm not wrong.

>> No.15455706

>>15455690
That's how Abrahamism works, yes, as the point is to enforce the Right Opinions. This is not how Buddhism works, as the point is showing them the Dharma. The Buddha taught that the best way to show people the Dharma is to meet them where they are, and find a way to teach the Dharma that works for them (he taught some comically large number of varieties of Dharma, like 62,000 or something). "Universal liberation" doesn't mean importing Nigerians or whatever, it means monks go to Nigeria, spread teachings that work for Nigerians, die, and Nigerians practice Buddhism. No Nigerian ever has to leave Nigeria, and no non-Nigerian (other than the initial Monks) ever has to enter Nigeria.

>> No.15455707

>>15455700

is that it? pathetic

>> No.15455708
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15455708

>Hello, do you have a moment to talk about the Tathagata?

>> No.15455710

>>15455690
fucking hell, then whitey should stick to his christianity or paganism, no one is imposing Buddhism or Hinduism on them.

>> No.15455712

>>15455694
ok plebbittard

>> No.15455714

>>15455707
>reddit spacing
you have to go back

>> No.15455720
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15455720

>>15455710
Except fuck Christianity

>> No.15455724
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15455724

>>15455710
those were originally white religions though
A European accepting paganism, hinduism or buddhism is them coming home from secular humanist atheism

>> No.15455725

>>15455189
Nagarjuna criticizes Theravadin metaphysics pretty extensively and purports to offer refutations of various Theravadin concepts like momentariness and dependent-origination being the cause of the world, but it seems like Buddhists on /lit/ don't like talking about this because they prefer to portray Buddhism as a unity, I have ever seen some go so far as to say that Nagarjuna and Therevada agree which is completely wrong

>> No.15455728

>>15455706
Niggers can't learn Dharma.

>> No.15455730

>>15455690
You think they haven't taken the fact that the life is suffering in to account? Like you can be against the notion, that's fine. But it just seems so weird that your hang up with a process that is meant to take not simply many lifetimes, but countless universes or kalpa coming and going, would be that it may attract open borders coastal whites on one particular planet.

>> No.15455736

>>15455724
>we wuz enlightened n sheeit
>the buddha wuz white
even if you support the "Aryan" theory. steppe nigger =/= European.

>> No.15455738

>>15455692
1 The noble Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva,
while practicing the deep practice of Prajnaparamita,
looked upon the Five Skandhas
and seeing they were empty of self-existence,
5 said, “Here, Shariputra,
form is emptiness, emptiness is form;
emptiness is not separate from form,
form is not separate from emptiness;
whatever is form is emptiness,
whatever is emptiness is form.
The same holds for sensation and perception,
memory and consciousness.
10 Here, Shariputra, all dharmas are defined by emptiness
not birth or destruction, purity or defilement,
completeness or deficiency.
Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness there is no form,
no sensation, no perception, no memory and no
consciousness;
no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body and no mind;
15 no shape, no sound, no smell, no taste, no feeling
and no thought;
no element of perception, from eye to conceptual
consciousness;
no causal link, from ignorance to old age and death,
and no end of causal link, from ignorance to old age and
death;
no suffering, no source, no relief, no path;
20 no knowledge, no attainment and no non-attainment.
Therefore, Shariputra, without attainment,
bodhisattavas take refuge in Prajnaparamita
and live without walls of the mind.
Without walls of the mind and thus without fears,
25 they see through delusions and finally nirvana.
All buddhas past, present and future
also take refuge in Prajnaparamita
and realize unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.
You should therefore know the great mantra of
Prajnaparamita,
30 the mantra of great magic,
the unexcelled mantra,
the mantra equal to the unequalled,
which heals all suffering and is true, not false,
the mantra in Prajnaparamita spoken thus:
‘Gate gate, paragate, parasangate, bodhi svaha.’”

>> No.15455739
File: 186 KB, 1688x1125, buddhism-in-africa-1688x1125.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15455739

>>15455728
Namaste

>> No.15455743

>>15455728
idk bruh, did anyone ever try to teach them?

>> No.15455750

>>15455637
>it returns to its pure state of freedom, free from all bounds and limits, even conceptual ones. That's Nirvana: total freedom.
Something which doesn't exist anymore doesn't have freedom. Only an existing entity can enjoy freedom, non-existence is not freedom.

>> No.15455754

>>15455736
lmao resorting to memes when you can't make an argument
this is the biggest cope
2/10

>> No.15455753

>>15455750
Correct. Nirvana is not non-existence. The Buddha is pretty clear on this, and indeed there are even Sutras where he just outright says "No, Nirvana is explicitly not non-existence".

>> No.15455756

>>15455739
>a black can close his eyes
wow such dharma

>> No.15455757

>>15455739
>muh token based black
When they get into these Western religions they are just thinking about the stupid white wymins that they can rape or trying to win the golden ticked to a Western nation so they can, you know, rape.

>> No.15455762

>>15455754
>still ignores the fact that steppe niggers aren't European
Sad, you should curse christians for erasing your tradition.

>> No.15455768

>>15455757
>western
doesn't matter how much you try to force the meme, you wuz not enlightened n shieeet

>> No.15455777
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15455777

>>15455756
There is nothing that the white man fears more than the black man waking up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZzI9Sg81Qw

>> No.15455779

>>15455762
and now changing the subject entirely because you were btfo
are you redditfags even trying

>> No.15455781

>>15455777
Holy BASED.

>> No.15455789

>>15455777
holy hylic

>> No.15455790

>>15455768
I mispoke in this one. Buddhism is not a Western religion. I'm also not the guy you're talking to. What I meant was religion brought to Africa by missionaries. That dharma nigger is probably part of some NGO social project BS. Plenty of stupid white wmyn to rape there.

>> No.15455792

>>15455738
not sure what >>15455632 was getting at, this pretty clearly denies an immortal eternal unchanging unconditioned self behind the appearances of form/emptiness to me

>> No.15455794

>>15455757
See if you were actually smart you would know that African Buddhism is a soft power play by China due to their investments in the region. But you are a big stinky dummy so you just went with bland 2016 racist buzzwords.

>> No.15455796

>>15455790
lmao alright

>> No.15455797

>>15455777
It's like seeing a dog trying to walk on his hind legs. But good for him. As long as he remains in Africa.

>> No.15455806

>>15455753
Claiming Nirvana is not non-existence is mutually incompatible with the notion many Buddhists also hold that the individual being is just the aggregates and that there is no Self separate from the aggregates and that the aggregates are destroyed and don't continue in Nirvana. If the aggregates are destroyed and then the body eventually falls and Parinirvana happens but there is no conciousness or sensations whatsoever due to the aggregates being destroyed then that's indistinguishable from nothingness and the claim that it's "not non-existence" rings hollow.

This underlying contradiction suggests that Buddhism failed to understand what Buddha taught, for by attributing both of the above positions to Buddha it results in a clear contradiction (that is, if you presume that he actually was enlightened and hence wouldn't teach inconsistent views; the other alternative is that he wasn't enlightened)

>> No.15455809

>>15455794
Ok smartass, I hope you're smart enough not to fall for your own bs. Why don't you go preach the Dharma in Africa or in some getto? That's right, because you're full of shit.

>> No.15455817

>>15455809
Absolutely seething and incoherent thrashing.

>> No.15455827

>>15455794
Lousy idea. Africa will redefine dukha as colonialism and be angry with China

>> No.15455838

>>15455488
Any accusations that scriptures are fictional, distortions of the Buddha's teachings, inaccurate etc. that a Theravadin can point at the Mahayana can also be levelled at the Theravadan canon. How do we know the Pali canon is at all accurate or true? The arguments in its favour are exactly the same as those for the Mahayana.
>source?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandh%C4%81ran_Buddhist_texts

Here's a first century Prajnaparamita text including references to bodhisattvas such as Manjushri:
https://www.academia.edu/3561115/prajnaparamita-5

>> No.15455840

>>15455827
I am not so sure. Africa is plenty undeveloped, and people who are brought in to modernity externally tend to cleave fairly closely with the culture that did it. I think if anything the danger will be similar to what has happened to Catholicism in Africa and South America, that being syncretism with folk religion and practices.

>> No.15455842

>>15455806
Your problem is that you're starting with this basic idea of Eternalism, and then getting upset when you can't find it and throwing your hands up and saying that because Eternalism isn't, it's Nihilism. That's the Eternalism-Nihilism pendulum. You can only have Nihilism if you have Eternalism, they're two sides of the same coin. Nihilism creates, indeed demands, unconditioned, eternal selfs, but then when it can't find them it gets upset because the unconditioned eternal self only exists in your head. Thus, "unicorns aren't real" actually creates unicorns, but they're in your head, and affirms the existence of unicorns (in your head), but oh how tragic, you can't find any unicorns (outside of your head)!

The point, that the Buddha teaches, is that the Unicorn is Empty. It doesn't exist, it doesn't not exist, it doesn't both at the same time, it doesn't neither at the same time, it's Empty. If it weren't Empty, it would be one of the four, all of which are non-nonsensical (Nagarjuna goes over this). Emptiness is what you're missing. Why are you missing Emptiness? Because you're focused on the Unicorn in your head. Why are you focused on the unicorn in your head? Because that's where you can find an eternal, unchanging, immortal, unconditioned self, as such things patently do not exist in the world around oyu. That's the ONLY place such a thing can possibly exist (again, Nagarjuna wrote an entire fucking book on this).

>> No.15455845

>>15455827
They will "define" shit. Africa will always shit because of Africans. Nothing ever works in Africa, liberal capitalism, socialism, welfare state, Christianity, Islam, Dharmic religions, always ends up the same. It will always be the same.

>> No.15455850

>>15455845
>Africa is an idealogical black hole, nothing goes there and survives
Based, Africans were the enlightened ones all along

>> No.15455861

Come the European colonizers. Africa takes a huge leap into the future. Blacks fuck up and everything goes to ruin.
>ooga booga me no have stuff
>whitey did this
Enter Chinese colonizers. Africa takes a huge leap into the future. Blacks fuck up and everything goes to ruin.
>ooga booga me no have stuff
>yellow man did this

>> No.15455862

>>15455806
Emptiness is arrived at through the dialectic between eternalism and annihilationism and identified with nirvana. Since emptiness is the nature of all things nirvana is already present in samsara. Ignorance and clinging to substance/self prevents one from realizing this. Aggregates are merely a cause for perception of the self and share in its emptiness

>> No.15455882

Btw only Theravada is worth a shit. Mahayana is a relapse into crude deity worship.

>> No.15455888
File: 196 KB, 1200x1200, gaudara-buddha-approx-3rd-century-bc-photo-by-eliot-elisofon_the-life-picture-collection-via-getty-images_getty-images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15455888

>>15455662
legit based post

>> No.15455889

>>15455850
Based afroyana poster

>> No.15455896

>>15455845
When Buddhism was ported to China it was read through Taoism as its vocabulary. In Africa it would have to be postcolonialism.

>> No.15455908

>>15455896
It will be ported to ooga booga gibs me dat vocabulary.

>> No.15455911

You idealist shitheads are the same kind of people who get their faces biten off by chimps

>> No.15455914

>>15455838
The proto mahayana texts have references to the vehicles of the disciples and solitary buddhas to shit on them.

>> No.15455930
File: 2.93 MB, 2122x1810, IMG_5461.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15455930

>>15455842
>Your problem is that you're starting with this basic idea of Eternalism, and then getting upset when you can't find it and throwing your hands up and saying that because Eternalism isn't, it's Nihilism. That's the Eternalism-Nihilism pendulum
No I'm not, stop being such a petulant child. You are literally unable to respond to any criticism of Buddhism without trying to relegate the opponents point to some strawman argument allegedly predicated on an incorrect basis when in actuality that has nothing to do with my real point. I'm not talking about any self or eternalism or nihilism at all.

Without taking any position on what eternalism is, without taking any position on what nihilism is, without taking any position on whether the self exists or not; the following points remain true:

1) Buddhists deny that Nirvana is non-existence
2) Buddhists simultaneously claim that the sense of being a living being is predicated on the aggregates, that conciousness is one of the aggregates and that in enlightenment the aggregates are destroyed and that in Parinirvana there is no aggregates remaining, no conciousness remaining, and nothing else having to do with a living being or entity remaining
3) This results in a contradiction where Parinirvana is denied to be nothingness but is described as something that's indistinguishable from nothingness because in both cases there are no sensations or entities whatsoever
4) The fire metaphor doesn't solve the contradiction because in the fire metaphor the flames continue in a latent state in embers but the Buddhist doesn't admit any latent existence or the continuing existence of anything in Parinirvana

Now, if you are capable of doing so, try to respond to the above contradiction without trying to make a diversion by accusing me of taking positions which I never actually claimed were true, e.g. claims about the self etc

>again, Nagarjuna wrote an entire fucking book on this
Nagarjuna is not an authority on anything, the man was literally retarded and was heavily criticized by Theravadins and Yogacharins. Multiple books and essays have been written by scholars which show how his logic collapses under serious scrutiny (i.e. Emptiness Appraised, Buddhist Illogic etc). His own ideas result in absurd infinite regresses which debunk his own teachings (pic related). Saying "Nagarjuna said this" is a red-flag that something is a dumb idea which deserves to be treated with suspicion.

>> No.15455932

>>15455662
>>15455888
samefag

>> No.15455940

>>15455662
Trusting the mental gymnastics of indian philosophers is always a mistake. And Mahayana does not use many of the same sources . Saying the contrary is moronic. See>>15455838

>> No.15455944

>>15455725
Nagarjuna never read anything related to theravadin. Also, momentariness is is pure commentary.

>> No.15455952

>>15455930
Buddhist "metaphysics" is incoherent af. And when you press them on it they will come back with lol metaphysics doesn't lead to enlightenment, skillful means bro, I can say whatever stupid and contradictory nonsense I want. Just meditate bro.

>> No.15455963
File: 219 KB, 1069x1082, Screenshot_20200526-142029_Chrome.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15455963

>>15455932

>> No.15455974

I'm a Zen Buddhist. I love weed. My friend is Rastafarian and we have butt sex (I'm a tranny).

>> No.15455977

>>15455930
Nirvana is beyond conditioned experience and cannot be given adequately in empirical terms. This isn't an issue if you accept that Buddhism is a religion and making a claim which requires faith like any other claim that is beyond knowable experience. That you can destroy Nagarjuna with facts and logic epic style doesn't disprove something you couldn't prove in the first place. Which incidentally is where emptiness becomes dialectic: rather than saying we must accept substance or not substance it rejects both. As for criticism internal to Buddhism of Nagarjuna, he is only the earliest systematizer of Madhyamika (a term he did not use to refer to a school, it was extracted from his text and applied retroactively to the legacy of his and Aryadeva's work and their successors). There are responses to the Yogacarin objections to Madhyamika, for instance (from Candrakirti), and there is also synthesis of Madhyamika-Yogacara (from Santaraksita).

>> No.15455979

>>15455952
Metaphysics is bullshit. How can you know the true nature of anything when you can't experience it?

>> No.15455984

>>15455952
agreed

>> No.15455987

>>15455952
You should read The Critique of Pure Reason, not Buddhism

>> No.15455988

>>15455930
> Multiple books and essays have been written by scholars which show how his logic collapses under serious scrutiny (i.e. Emptiness Appraised, Buddhist Illogic etc). His own ideas result in absurd infinite regresses which debunk his own teachings (pic related).
Burton's arguments are not very good at all. I responded to a post I think you made regarding that in a thread days ago, you obviously missed it.

>> No.15455994

>>15455974
Based. Wow. So this is the power of Mahayana.

>> No.15456000

>>15455930
>explain x
>okay
>NO THAT VIOLATES MY FUNDAMENTAL ASSUMPTIONS EXPLAIN IT TO ME IN A WAY THAT WILL AGREE WITH MY FUNDAMENTAL ASSUMPTIONS
>your fundamental assumptions are wrong
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
This happens literally every Buddhist thread: You ask someone to explain something unexplainable that can only be understood through lived experience (for lack of a better term), then get butthurt when someone points out at your misunderstanding of Emptiness and the lack of Selves, throw a fit about how Nagarjuna's works are "invalid" so you don't have to bother reading him even though he literally addresses everything you want addressed, and then talk about how Shankara and Ken Wheeler (lmfao) are somehow more intellectual than Nagarjuna, followed by posting that same wall of text that literally no one, not even you, has read or will bother to read because no one wants to read eight pages of someone misunderstanding Buddhist doctrine.

You want to know what Narajuna says? Stop watching Ken Wheeler videos and just read what Nagarjuna said. You want to know what Nirvana is like? Meditate and find out. It's really that simple, dude.

>> No.15456002

>>15455979
Except Buddhists clearly have a metaphysics. They will only deny they have it when someone points out the glaring contradictions.
>I was just kidding bro!

>> No.15456010

>>15456000
>2+2=5
>that's illogical
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT'S WESTERN LOGIX IN EASTERN LOGIX YOU CAN SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT
>uh, that's just nonsensical
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>> No.15456012

>>15456000
>no one wants to read eight pages of someone misunderstanding Buddhist doctrine
I read it. Turns out he misunderstood Buddhist doctrine. So much for "scholars".

>> No.15456021

>>15455930
>Burton
handwaves away the two truths doctrine because MUH ANALYTICAL PHILOSOPHY MUH THEORY OF EVERYTHING, he can safely be ignored because of this

>Saying "Nagarjuna said this" is a red-flag that something is a dumb idea which deserves to be treated with suspicion.
thats rich coming from the guy who gets his religion from some camera obsessed schizo on youtube that claims to have been given the rights to all of shankaras works via astral projection

>> No.15456022
File: 5 KB, 205x246, 1583360096506.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456022

>Nirvana = annihilation
>Buddhism = nihilism

>> No.15456036

>>15456022
Isn't Buddhism more like Kierkegaard or Camus?

>> No.15456044

>>15456021
>the two truths doctrine
Elaborate. What does this entail?

>> No.15456050

>>15455963
that can easily be faked samefag

>> No.15456056

>>15455930
funny how that only criticizes nagarjuna not the Buddha

>> No.15456089

wheeler really does make a certain person in this thread seethe, but why?

>> No.15456094
File: 1.10 MB, 704x924, 1579879017097.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456094

>>15456089
its time to stop posting Ken

>> No.15456123

>>15456094
Damn being fat and unattractive just invalidates whatever this guy is trying to put forward. It is what it is!

>> No.15456136

>>15456044
Things can be 'true' on a conventional level while on an absolute level having a different explanation. For instance, personal selfhood could 'exist' conventionally for the sake of experiencing phenomena but should not be taken as existing in a permanent unchanging way, since the nature of all things is asserted to be emptiness.

>> No.15456138

>>15456094

ken's quirks are hilarious, but if you're telling everyone to stop watching his videos, you obviously haven't taken your own advice. you don't even understand even though the form is emptiness, it is supported by the undifferentiated mass that is real. its like the guy that posted the heart sutra early and denied a substrate because it only spoke of forms. consubstantiality is hard

>> No.15456142

>>15455977
>This isn't an issue if you accept that Buddhism is a religion and making a claim which requires faith like any other claim that is beyond knowable experience.
Isn't that contradicting the suttas where Buddha says not to be lead by faith and to only follow and accept things if it makes sense though?

>>15455988
I don't remember that, maybe you can repeat it, all I remember is someone saying that the contradictions doesn't matter because the point is to give up views, which is just begging the question what if the logic Nagarjuna uses to argue that one should give up views is itself flawed? That answer is not a solution to the problem. How is there not a ridiculous infinite regress when Nagarjuna claims that all phenomena etc are conceptual constructs but that the entities making those constructs are conceptual constructs themselves? It's like a son giving birth to the father, non-entities cannot have conceptual constructions as inert objects and empty space dont have thoughts or mental consructs but in order for there to be an entity to make conceptual constructions according to Madhyamaka that very entity has to be a conceptual construct itself, but there is no way that it can "pre-construct" itself by conceptually constructing itself out of nothing before it was an entity that could have conceptual constructions, because qua not being an entity it wouldn't possess the ability to have conceptual constructs. It's nonsensical

>>15456000
If something is obviously a contradiction and your only recourse is to go "no it's supposed to LIVED! man" that's an indication it's bullshit. I'm not a Ken Wheeler fan, I actually consider him to be cringe a lot of the time.

>>15456012
cope

>>15456021
That picture is not about the two truths but offers a separate criticism, if you can't refute his points about where Nagarjuna is incoherent in that picture you can just say so

>> No.15456155

>>15456094
kek, the state of mahayana

>> No.15456170

>>15455684
Prove it.

>> No.15456175

>>15456136
Another good example would be "How can killing be bad if everything is Empty?". At a bigbrain Enlightened Ultimate level, it's not, but you're not Enlightened so you can't kill without generating Karma like an Enlightened being could (this is something they wouldn't do because of compassion and all that jazz, but you get the point).

>> No.15456181

>>15456138
>but if you're telling everyone to stop watching his videos
no im telling ken (whose schizo ass is probably in this thread)
that he needs to stop with the schizo self promotion

>> No.15456191
File: 232 KB, 900x551, 1567231642527.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456191

>> No.15456193

>>15456142
>i'm not a fan of ken wheeler
>but don't be mean to ken wheeler, he's an enlightened guru
lmfao fuck off ken

>> No.15456195

>>15456181
>self promotion
get it?

>> No.15456208

>>15455528
This clearly shows you how Mahayana, Vajrayana and the pure land retardism has absolutely nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

>> No.15456212

>>15456191

>nirvana is nihilistic

the word nirvana has become so meaningless, you could replace the buddha in the comic with kurt cobain and it would retain the same meaning

>> No.15456222

>>15455977
Maybe they cannot be adequately expressed because they don't exist. Seems like a far simpler explanation.

>> No.15456228

>>15455602
>(aka crypto-buddhism)
>one century later retards still throw this insult, despite that Advaita is older than Buddha

>> No.15456229

>>15456036
Big doubt.

>> No.15456238
File: 1.61 MB, 2756x1000, 1581090142553.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456238

>>15456094
>you now remember the time he samefagged as a female blogger named Kendra Wheelright to boost his own ego

>> No.15456241

>>15456136
Could for sure be true, but since we don't have any evidence of this emptiness we don't yet have a reason to believe in it either; and since the conventional explanation fits our everyday experiences, even if the ultimate explanation was prived to be true, like might be the case woth free will, we would still continue with our beliefs based on everyday experiences by natural course.

>> No.15456251

>>15456175
I forget which chapter exactly but somewhere in either Asanga's Mahayanasamgraha or Vasubandhu's commentary there is a passage about how a boddhisattva can kill someone if it is for the right purpose, e.g. preventing them accruing bad karma through committing a particularly heinous act. This is presented almost as an FYI and isn't really the heart of the text but meant to illustrate the limitless compassion of the boddhisattva ideal. It is not suggested (You) become a murderer.

>> No.15456255
File: 27 KB, 358x361, 1322395628136.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456255

>>15456238
>Kendra Wheelright

>> No.15456256

>>15455566
fight the jews

>> No.15456265

>>15456241

the evidence is baked into existence and requires thought to actually bridge a gap between the emptiness and the form. you're never going to create an emptiness detection machine because you need to see the damn form to know that it is changing and empty

>> No.15456278

>>15456238

why is samefagging for fun bad? the patron saint of this board (guenonfag) used samefaggotry to enlighten dozens of people

>> No.15456279

>>15456193
The other people in this thread posting about Ken and attacking the views of the Buddhists here are not me. There are actually multiple people on /lit/ who think Buddhist metaphysics are pants-on-head retarded, surprise! I have enjoyed watching some of Ken's videos before but I find it cringe how hard he focuses on the "Buddhism was actually Advaita" angle while also incorrectly promoting Buddhism as older than the Upanishads and propagating pseudo-historical claims about Prakrit being older than Sanskrit which are not accepted by scholars, it's like he wants Buddhism to be basically Advaita but at the same time to be more important and more venerable then Hinduism. If he loves his "Buddhism as Advaita" so much I think it's high time for him to realize that if that was the teaching of Buddhism that has long ago been irreversibly lost due to misintepretation and he is beating a dead horse by trying to revive it. I also disagree strongly with his condemnations of religion writ large and consider it to be poor advice that misleads people.

>> No.15456287

>>15456278
>implying Ken isn't guenonfag too

>> No.15456290
File: 21 KB, 450x565, 1573850013083.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456290

>>15456228
Yea retards such as Ramanuja who coined the term still makes Advaitins seethe 1000 years later. Unironically its Hindus who throw that word around the most, Buddhists for the large part couldn't care less whether Advaita is older or newer than Buddhism.

>> No.15456292

>>15456265
We already sense a kind of emptiness, space, by noting the differences between existing things (to discover for example vacuum).

>> No.15456305
File: 120 KB, 1199x873, 1575724066735.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456305

>>15456278
>its fun to shill my own videos and kooky ideas
ok ken doll we get it you like to astroturf, dont need to state the obvious

>> No.15456309

>>15456142
>Isn't that contradicting the suttas where Buddha says not to be lead by faith and to only follow and accept things if it makes sense though?

In theory you are supposed to arrive at these insights through jnana stages or some other form of insight meditation depending on the tradition, which would allow you to obtain the nonconceptual wisdom necessary to grasp the ultimate teachings. Html cannot do it justice. But here we again have a sort of regress where now you have to accept there is a method to transcend empirical knowledge from experience. This is a problem that isn't unique to Buddhism but Buddhism is unique in rejecting many non-empirical beliefs common to other religions, which gives rise to the notion that it is Facts and Logic the Not-Religion. And the notion that you can 'get it' merely by reading is what attracts all the hyperprotestantized Westerners. It is certainly still a religion with all that implies. That the Buddha said you have to be able to accept teachings such that they agree with you is essentially an awkward phrasing of skillful means more than a rejection of all faith. And it does not invalidate your need to be prepared to receive the teaching (and this preparation may not even be entirely in your power to accomplish, being that you are conditioned in your becoming).

>> No.15456311

The theory that everything is emptiness is emptiness
Therefore everything is not emptiness

>> No.15456322
File: 32 KB, 480x481, 1588172599385.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456322

>>15456241
Emptiness is dialectic

>> No.15456333

>>15456292

not exactly what i was referring to

>>15456305

just dump your entire ken folder dude, its obvious you are a disgruntled ex fanboy

>> No.15456334

>>15456290
Mostly seething brahmins angry that Shankara brought into the mainstream how the Upanishads are actually against pointless rituals and more about introspection.
Him creating a buddhist inspired monastical order didn't help his image in their eyes, but retards parroting the same insult today, whether buddhists or hindus, are utterly retarded.

>> No.15456342
File: 37 KB, 400x439, 1588157148794.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456342

>>15456333
Don't even know who Ken is but I could use some fresh meme

>> No.15456343

Nirvana is emptiness
Therefore those who achieved Nirvana return
Nevermind Nirvana and not returning, the whole thing was just the Buddha trolling you with skillful means bro, so you can sit down and meditate and not think about stuff
Now pass me the joint bro

>> No.15456351

The real reality is that everything is material and religion is a cope
The whole Buddhism is a skillful means for coping

>> No.15456366
File: 10 KB, 203x300, Nirvana-Kurt-Cobain-Krist-Novoselic-Dave-Grohl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456366

>>15456343

what you refer to is not nirvana. THIS is nirvana

>> No.15456373

>>15456366
Kurt Cobain was a skillfull mean bro. He didn't really exist or kill himself.

>> No.15456384

Emptiness is also a skillfull means. Nagarjuna was only trolling you because you were not ready yet yo hear the final secret truth.

>> No.15456396

Skillfull means are also skillful means to teach meta-skillfull means.

Mahayana philosophy is so profound bros! Every time there is a new plot twist.

Wow;

Mind = blown

>> No.15456416

these threads are so cringe holy shit
>>>/x/

>> No.15456453

>>15456142
>How is there not a ridiculous infinite regress when Nagarjuna claims that all phenomena etc are conceptual constructs but that the entities making those constructs are conceptual constructs themselves?
Burton conflates the two truths, i.e. conventional appearance vs. ultimate truth.
Nagarjuna's system is that it takes in claims about appearances, relative truth, and checks them for inconsistencies. The ultimate truth is what is left after an analysis has been completed where claims are checked for any illogical statements.
If claims about the nature of any given appearance's existence is logically inconsistent, the claimed way of existing cannot be real. So if you say "a mind exists because it arises from causes", but this claim is ultimately found to be nonsensical, the appearance we conventionally call "a mind" cannot really exist the way you thought it did.
From the perspective of post-analysis, i.e. ultimate truth, there is no claim being made any more that there actually is a "real mind" to be made of conceptual constructs. Because there is no claim being put forward, there cannot be a logical inconsistency. Burton talks as if there is still a claim that a mind exists from the viewpoint of post-analysis/ultimate truth. There isn't. This is why he is confused and feels like he is trying to bootstrap something into reality from non-existence. There is therefore no claim being made which can have the problem of infinite regress. As Nagarjuna claims, he is not putting forward a position, only showing the problems inherent in other people's positions. He himself has no position.

>> No.15456481
File: 590 KB, 1046x1232, 1568223226942.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456481

>>15456255
That's just the tip of the iceberg, dude is known for creating multiple amazon, ebay, reddit accounts and samefagging his autism on atman-buddhism as well as his belief that everything is fundamentally made of electricity. There's a page somewhere of someone outing his puppet accounts, I lost the link to it but it reveals a lot about his deranged mentality. He's also speculated to have posted on /p/ and shill camera products because he does photography for a living. Apparently he's a shit photographer according to /p/ and once lost a 'shootout' (photo-duel basically) to a fedora wearing creep only to take revenge months later by spreading false rumors of him denying a cancer patient refund money for his workshop which is scummy not least because Ken's own wife died to cancer.

You can tell he's posting in this thread with the reddit spacing and the 'haha samefagging is awesome bro, who is this guenonchad he's handsome in a gay way xD'. If his arguments are really well thought out, he'd not be engaging in dirty tactics and just let them speak for themselves, but he chooses to astroturf because he doesn't really believe them to be solid arguments.

His whole existence hinges on an anti-materialist 'hardcore right wing traditionalist' online proselytism, yet he himself buys the latest cameras and ipads for a living, hypocrite best describes him.

>> No.15456508
File: 59 KB, 815x755, 1560258783264.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456508

>>15456333
no problem Ken, your antics make us jest

>> No.15456515

>>15456453
>Nagarjuna's
That cringe bro. CRINGE
Don't get attached to yesterday's skillful means
The essence of Mahayana is to always come up with new stuff everyday
Buddha was a boomer we want new stuff everyday

Wow

Mahayana "philosophy" just blows you away doesn't it

>> No.15456525
File: 1.05 MB, 1216x816, 1561324517738.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456525

>>15456515

>> No.15456544

>>15456525
Nagarjuna was only using skillful means with you bro you didn't think it was the ultimate truth right?

There is always a deeper onion layer to peel off. That's the beauty of Mahayana bro.

Write your own sutras bro.

Preach your own Dharma.

>> No.15456581 [DELETED] 

Shakyamuni Buddha totally taught deity worship and tantrix sex magic bro

Find all about it in the latest sutra thta came out just now!

>> No.15456661
File: 2.21 MB, 1450x5947, 1588539647883.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456661

>>15456228
>Advaita is older than Buddha

the only people who think this are advaita cultists on quora.com. hindus don't think this, not even most advaitafags think it, academics don't think it.

>> No.15456668
File: 447 KB, 1630x1328, 1581501269200.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456668

>>15456661
also it makes sense that guenonfag is ken

>> No.15456739
File: 483 KB, 1880x2623, 1574721808209.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456739

>advaita isn't cryptobud-

>> No.15456763

>>15456739
it's funny how real advaitafags in india know this is true so they just admit it and find ways around it, but retarded indiaboos online get defensive about it. goes to show how guenonfag's weird western guenonian traditionalist internet sufism is not hinduism.

>> No.15456771

>>15456481
you forgot to mention the part where he literally stole other people's work and passed it off as his own. he's a fraud and a gearfag, everyone on p knows this

>> No.15456777

>>15456661
>>15456668
>>15456739

Is it necessary to post these in every thread about Buddhism? It's like clockwork the same pixels every few days. Trapped in a cyber samsara

>> No.15456788

>>15456777
if someone is making false claims and trying to mislead people why not? guenonfag is posting his usual garbage. people ignore him nowadays though.

>> No.15456792

>>15456777
Already brought up, see >>15456000

There's one or two vedantafags who get really butthurt about Buddhism because they want to replicate the Atheism vs Protestantism vs Catholicism vs Orthodoxy debates that Christfags have. That's all there is to it. The Buddhist intellectual tradition doesn't give a shit about Shankara or Advaita Vedanta, this is purely an e-theology thing.

>> No.15456810
File: 206 KB, 550x616, 1577461590947.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456810

>>15456788
Does the claim warrant these long form responses every single time? This seems like a highly ritualized dance between two shitposters more than a discussion of anything. Could just direct people to read TRV Murti's work on Madhyamika and be done with it.

>> No.15456825

>>15456777
Some retard starts calling advaitins crypto-buddhists in every thread, the posts the images that get debunked with the same counter images. It's the cycle of life.

>> No.15456834

>>15456810
>Could just direct people to read TRV Murti's work on Madhyamika and be done with it.
reading is hard for e-hindus, especially outside their own dogmatic texts

>> No.15456844

>>15456810
yes because he does this >>15455930

the only reason he doesn't do that 500 more times is because he knows there's no point anymore. look at this, this is what he did in every buddhism thread for several years
>>/lit/image/fG9nvXFvjBzGFskbe5usYg

>>15456825
yea debunk every academic and actual hindu with your guenonian sufism again, let's see it guenonfag

>> No.15456868
File: 65 KB, 764x269, 1589254078456.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456868

>>15456825
>some retard starts calling advaitins crypto-buddhists in every thread
probably has something to do with the 1 schizo who started spamming his cringe way back in 2015 (pic related)

>> No.15456870

>>15456844
>Everyone who disagrees with me is the guenonfag

>> No.15456878

>>15456868
Yes, that was retarded, and now we have this shit in every single thread about indian philosophy.

>> No.15456882
File: 701 KB, 1903x2697, 1561023628406.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15456882

>>15456870
>these are all different people
lol

>> No.15456890

>>15456882
No, that the fag. But not everyone who doesn't like being called a crypto-buddhist is your boogieman

>> No.15456902
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15456902

>>15456890
The only person who gets IRL asspained about being called a crypto-buddhist is you, because other people are mature enough not to make their entire life about trying to goad random Buddhists into the same argument with the same image. You're still asspained right now.

>> No.15456905

>>15456890
well at least you admit that you (I presume you meant your great acharya) don't like being called a crypto-buddhist

>> No.15456947

>>15456890
>>15456905
Is 'crypto buddhist' the mosaic distinction of electric vedanta?

>> No.15457713
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15457713

>>15456739
>*unsheathes katana*

>> No.15457921

>>15455662
I think probably one of the main reason why Theravada is more prevalent among western monks is because Theravada countries are just much much easier to get into. Mahayana nations such as Japan, China and South Korea are quite difficult to move to if you do not have a job there. So if you want to become a monk then Theravada is pretty much a given.

>> No.15457928

>>15456905
wow, you successfully redirected yet another thread talking about the glaring contradictions in Buddhism into a discussion of Advaita again, congratulations! Now try and explain how Parinirvana isn't a total annihiliation again?

>bro it's like *hits blunt* beyond annihilation and non-annihilation

>> No.15457998

>>15457921
also because other buddhisms do not view monkhood as important, especially the joke that is zen monks who live like non-monks as much as they can

>> No.15458017

>>15456481
>who is this guenonchad he's handsome in a gay way xD'
this but unironically, did you see those shirtless pics? I mean goddamn...

>> No.15458035

>>15457921
Mahayana stuff is all over the place, there's dozens of schools and lineages and traditions, and all of them have their own systems and history and they're all largely based around a religious institution (or series of institutions) with sutras that interact with sutras and commentary of commentary of commentary. This is to say nothing of the meditation systems, wherein even non-Vajrayana Mahayana meditation is in many ways alien to Western religious thought. None of this is bad, but it's a lot for a Westerner to suddenly dive into.

And then the Theravada has this nice, focused, austere, simple system, with a distinct canon, and the commentaries flow from a single piece of that canon, and everyone more or less agrees with each other and there's no big denominational splits that are more or less divorced from dogma, culminating in the Thai Forest Tradition which basically sough to focus and hone Theravada in light of Mahayana developments (namely Nagarjuna).

I think the anon you're responding to is being a little harsh on the Theravada and it's appeals, but I have to say that its simplicity and focus is certainly endearing. It's less about learning an entirely new culture and systems upon systems upon systems than Mahayana.

>> No.15458051

>>15456453
>Burton talks as if there is still a claim that a mind exists from the viewpoint of post-analysis/ultimate truth.
ummm.. who the fuck is supposed to be having this conversation right now if there are no minds?

>> No.15458078

>>15457921
It's a lot to do with the colonial history of Theravadan countries and the UK, like Burma etc.

>> No.15458082

>>15458051
The conventional appearance of phenomena is never denied in madhyamaka.

>> No.15458110

>>15458082
appearences never arise without an existing basis for them

>> No.15458127

>>15458110
The basis is dependent origination, none of which involves an essence to anything.

>> No.15458219

If the Buddha says there is no self (anatta), then how do karma and rebirth work? What exactly gets "rebirthed" when an individual's life comes to an end? Why do I have a duty to other "no-selves"? This is all a bit confusing...

>> No.15458247

>>15458219
The best short explanation is chapter 4 of Mipham Rinpoche's Gateway to Knowledge vol 1.

https://b-ok.cc/book/2040147/050ce3

>> No.15458303

>>15458127
Dependent origination cannot cause itself and co-dependent appearances cannot cause each other if there is no underlying basis to them which can get them started, that just results in an infinite regress which according to Nagarjuna is a sign that somethings wrong with your metaphysics

>> No.15458319

>>15455189
Fun fact: I do not recall a direct criticism of exactly "Theravada" in the Mahayana writings. The fact is that in the narrow sense, Theravada was born in Lanka and spread later in Southeast Asia, so that in the active period it had little contact with Mahayana.
Always in the writings we are talking about the Hinayana/Shravakayana, whether this also implies Theravada - an ambiguous question. Some do not believe that Theravada = Hinayana, believing that under the last term there are only some extinct schools of Buddhism. But these are small details.
This or that criticism of Hinayana can be found in any Mahayana composition where it is mentioned. But not as an erroneous path, but as a lower or narrow path. For example,
The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment (Lamrim Chenmo) by Tsongkhapa
Another thing is that the Mahayana adherents did not consider it particularly important to defend themselves from criticism from the side of the small chariot, believing that the advantages of the Great Chariot are so obvious and superior that Hinayana is simply not an equal opponent.

Be that as it may, now the teachers of different schools of Buddhism are trying not to bring out the old disputes 1000-2000 years ago: there are not so many Buddhists left. There are funny situations: for example, Lankan monks talked with Tibetan monks at some meeting and were greatly surprised by the similarity of the monastic charters of their cloisters, although they previously believed that they only kept the tradition.
The laity (on the Internet), of course, like to make shitstorm: Theravada vs Mahayana.
I do not support this. Mahayanists should not forget that Theravada. not only a narrow, but a "bas(ed)ic" path.


Also, by ignoring Guenonfag - you improve karma.

>> No.15458322

>>15458303
There is no start. Time is endless.

>> No.15458349

>>15458322
Time being endless doesn't change the fact that there can be no initial impetus which can cause the appearence from the non-existing basis, that's the point of the infinite regress

>> No.15458384

>>15458219
The karma, and in some formulations various bits of the first person. Buddhism doesn't (inherently) deny the existence of souls, you can still have a soul, it's just impermanent and made up of soul-stuff (this explicit rejection of dualism upsets Westerners who hold to mind-body dualism). A material example would be you, a man, impregnating a woman. You've made a new life, the kid. A part of you went into making that kid. The sperm is just made up of atoms, how can it said to be "part of you"? It isn't. Your actions have resulted in a new being being born (rebirth happens after you die, but it doesn't have to wait until then, and in a big-brain sense because "you"'re continuous you're constantly dying and being reborn). That's karma. You acted, and a being was born. This is a very literal, material example, of course, so there's more to this than just "you die, bugs eat your corpse and lay eggs in the dirt, your atoms make up the bugs".

>> No.15458408

>>15458349
>there can be no initial impetus
Yes, that's the point that there is no initial uncaused cause. The cause of any appearance of a moment of consciousness is a prior one. Read Mipham on the 12 links.
There is a discussion of the "beginning" of samsara in the Dzogchen teachings regarding the time of the basis, but I'm not discussing that. You can find some discussion here, if I'm remembering correctly: https://wisdomexperience.org/wisdom-podcast/malcolm-smith/

>> No.15458469

>>15458408
>Yes, that's the point that there is no initial uncaused cause.
Then there is no way that the co-dependent appearences could arise at all, ergo the whole theory is garbage and the fact that we perceive appearences proves that there is an existing basis for them

>There is a discussion of the "beginning" of samsara in the Dzogchen teachings regarding the time of the basis, but I'm not discussing that.
Why even bother mentioning it then?

>malcolm
kek, have you tried asking him what happened with Sogyal Rinpoche? What's the point of even taking Tibetian Buddhism seriously anymore when someone can ascend to the near top of it and head an organzation with branches in 41 countries while raping and beating people?

>> No.15458497

>>15458469
You need to actually try understanding something before having an opinion first.

>> No.15458523

>>15458469
>infinite regress doesn't make sense
>why not?
>because it would mean there are no immortal unchanging eternal impermanent Selfs for me to latch onto so my ego can exist forever
The problem isn't with Buddhism, it's with you

>> No.15458532

>>15458497
I have and it's a house of cards propped up by circular thinking

also, why are you even having this conversation if I'm just your conceptual construct?

>> No.15458551

>>15458523
No anon, that's not why it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense because if there is no existing basis then there is no way that appearences can arise

>> No.15458916

>>15457921
There are plenty of so-called Zen lineages which are active in the United States, particularly on the West Coast, which began with Japanese immigrants but have been partially integrated. And if Korea was so hard to access for Westerners it wouldn't be full of pentacostalist Christians. While there are and have been a number of high profile European and American Theravadin monks (to whom we owe many translations from Pali), plenty of Western laymen and specialists have delved into the Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, and Sanskrit texts which are considered Mahayana and brought them to Western audiences.

>>15458078
Yes this is definitely part of it, and with the grounds for understanding still being a Protestant culture

>> No.15458966
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15458966

>buddhist chantards

I can't take this concept seriously

>> No.15459226
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15459226

>crypto-buddhism
So, why is this bad again? Taking a buddhist approach at the Upanishads and coming up with the chad philosophy of advaita seems like a milestone in indian thought.

>> No.15459578

Bros how do I understand the discussing taking place in this thread? What are some books on Dharmic religions that aren't 101 level?

>> No.15459980

>>15459578
the sutras with commentary
shankaras commentaries

>> No.15460360

>>15459226
Basically my take on it too. Buddhism + vedic mythology.

Reading Buddhist poetry and myth making its clear Buddhism is severely lacking.

>> No.15460375

>>15455577
Some people view the extermination of desires and the self as a form of nihilism. And I agree because in reality if you aren't trying to fulfil desires, then wtf are you doing.

>> No.15460411

>>15459226
Because advaita vedanta actually is nihilism. Buddhism was never nihilism, it was practice with some epistemology, and later on more sophisticated epistemological method and well developed monasticism. Shankara stole the monasticism, stole the epistemology, but applied it to a monism that makes no sense because it's meaningless.

Whether you prefer theravada or mahayana, they both have points to them and things going for them. Advaitafags are like the worst of all possible worlds, and they ruin hinduism on top of that. There's a reason that only westerners and native Indians raised by the colonial regime who wanted to prove to England that India had a crypto-anglican tradition are into Advaita, it's stupid as fuck.

Bhakti is interesting if that's your thing, yoga and tantra rae interesting, various forms of emanationist and monist hinduism focused on the Upanishads are also cool and even make room for bhakti, yoga and tantra. Buddhism is also its own thing, mahayana or theravada. Why go with the worst aspects of all of them combined?

Simple answer, there's no reason to. That's why nobody gives a shit about advaita other than people on the internet who want a bit of exotic orient but have to get it through a French Muslim mystic.

>> No.15460427

>>15458966
Should I be horny or scared?

>> No.15460555

>>15460360
hard disagree

from dogen's shobogenzo

Thus, the Kannon of whom our old Master Shakyamuni spoke only had a
thousand hands and eyes, or twelve faces, or thirty-three bodies or eighty-four
thousand bodies. The Kannon of Ungan and Dōgo had ever so many hands and
eyes and is beyond any talk about quantities. When you explore through your
training the Kannon of Ungan and Dōgo, which has ever so many hands and eyes,
then you, together with all Buddhas, will realize eighty or ninety percent of
Kannon’s meditative state.

from the shurangama sutra

At that time, a hundred brilliant rays sprang from the mound of the flesh on the crown of the World Honored One’s head. A thousand-petalled precious lotus arose from amidst those rays. Upon the precious flower sat the Thus Come One’s transformation. 6:91

From the crown of its head, in turn, he emitted ten beams, each composed of a hundred rays of precious light. Every one of those glowing rays shone on lands as many as the sands of ten Ganges Rivers, while throughout empty space there were Vajra Secret- Traces Spirits, each holding aloft a mountain and wielding a pestle. 6:92

The great assembly, gazing upward, felt fearful admiration and sought the Buddha’s kind protection. Single-mindedly they listened as the Thus Come One in the light at the invisible appearance on the crown of the Buddha’s head proclaimed the spiritual mantra: 6:93

tathagatagarbha sutra

‘Never ever have I witnessed
A miraculous display like today's.
To see hundreds of thousands and millions of buddhas
Seated in the calyxes of lotus flowers,
Each emitting countless streams of light,
Filling all the fields,
Scattering the dirt of false teachers,
Adorning all the worlds!
The lotuses suddenly wilted;
There was not one which was not disgusting.
Now tell us, why did you display this conjured vision?
We see buddhas more numerous than the sands of the Ganges.’


not too mention the story of mara's defeat and the Buddha calling upon the earth for witness.

or when the stories of the Buddhas supernatural abilities.

>> No.15461696

>>15455528
>Christianity, Hinduism, Islam.. shows you the way to Heavens
Do any Buddhists actually believe this? I suppose you could connect Yahweh to the Mahabrahma but it seems kinda weird still.

>> No.15462051

>>15455963
fraud detected, if you were a real buddhist there wouldn't be any (You)

>> No.15462052
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15462052

>>15459226
Mahayana is a good introduction to buddhism, just not buddhism.

>> No.15462143

>>15462051
Well played

>> No.15462144

>>15458219
These exact questions are raised and answered by Santideva in the Bodhicaryavatara, chaoter 9

>> No.15462168

>>15461696
>Do any Buddhists actually believe this?
No. This is a condescension to Westerners and dull-witted Christards. Buddhism has a complex cosmology with many heavens presided by many deities, none of which are Yahweh or Jesus for that matter.

>> No.15462177

>>15462144
Nigga I'm not gonna look for that book just to read one chapter. Spill it out.

>> No.15462183

>>15462168
>Christards
I should say Abrahamtards

>> No.15462539

>>15460411
You do know not all advaitins in the west have read guenon, right?

>> No.15463097

>>15455189
it's funny how buddhism was started by an iranic jai hind nationalist specifically against iranic influence in the ganges plains. 500 years later persian and aramaean influences would flood india and east asia via the greater vehicle

>> No.15463134

>>15463097
Nationalism is a creation of the secular humanists a few centuries ago.

>> No.15463151

>>15463134
no shit retard. you know what i meant

>> No.15463528
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15463528

Buddhism is the religion of the urbanite, then as well as now.

>> No.15463807

>>15463528
Ok

>> No.15463809

>>15463528
and rootless cosmopolitans

>> No.15464004

>>15463528
nah

>> No.15464068

>>15455838
The gandhari texts also have buddhist sutras around 150AD, just like the mahayana sutras.

>> No.15464173

>>15455708
the rock does buddhism?

>> No.15464182
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15464182

>>15463528
So Buddhism is the Christianity of the east?

>> No.15464189

>>15463528
>>15463807
>>15463809
>>15464004
>>15464182
Universalist ideologies/religions tend to develop in rootless cosmopolitan settings

>> No.15464192

>>15464182
you're thinking of Sikhism

>> No.15464289

>>15464189
yawn. /pol/ tier reductionalism .

>> No.15464345

>>15464289
(((you)))

>The Buddhist sanghas were supported by traders and merchants. The commercial class provided support to Buddhism because, in accordance with strict Brahmanical orthodoxy, the traders and merchants, despite possessing economic wealth, were regarded as social and cultural inferiors to the Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Both Mahavira and Buddha challeneged the hereditary caste system. And unlike brahmanism, Buddhism encouraged sea voyages, which the merchants engaged in overseas trade undertook frequently. Loans and debts were taken on interest. At times letters of credit functioned as substitutes for money. The (Hindu) Gautama dharmasutra prescribes a limit on the interestt chargeable by the creditor. The lawful limit was 1.25 percent per month or 15 percent per year. The interest could not exceed the principle, however long the debt remained unpaid. Again, in Buddhism, the interests on the moneylenders were protected, and the debtors were reminded of their obligations. By contrast, the brahmanical lawgivers despised the money-lenders.

- Hinduism and the Ethics of Warfare in South Asia, Kaushik Roy pg. 41

The rise of Buddhism corresponds to the rise of the usurers, and the descent into the reign of quantity

>> No.15464352

>>15464345
OOOOOOOOOOOoy vey vey vey vey vey ey ey ey ey y y y...

>> No.15464370

>>15464345
>The rise of Buddhism corresponds to the rise of the usurers, and the descent into the reign of quantity
It's been ages since I've read Evola's work on Buddhism, but doesn't he counter this thesis?

>> No.15464422

>>15464345
>inb4 the buddha was a literal jew

could you at least make an argument thats a bit, better?

As autistic as Geunonfag is at least his points against Buddhism come from an actual school of indian philosophy dating back thousands of years.
you're just throwing a fit that merchants donated to Buddhist monks

>> No.15464535

>>15464370
Evola's book is mostly cope. There is a fundamental contradiction between the aristocratic hierarchical nature of the caste system (which Evola loved) and Buddhism which sought to upend the caste system and which preached to all without distinction. Buddhism was like the globohomo antifa of the 6th century BC, that's why Buddhists both then and today tend to be rootless cosmopolitans who have an antipathy towards tradition

>> No.15464561

>>15464535
>which sought to upend the caste system
This is entirely wrong. There is no distinction between the castes within the Monastic community, and that's that. Among the laity, the Buddha is silent on the caste system as a whole, because it's utterly irrelevant.

>> No.15464562

>>15464535
>Buddhism which sought to upend the caste system
Buddhism never sought to do this though.

>> No.15464595

>>15464535
yeah but buddhism does not care about society, this is what the leftist hate the most about this and why they go to mahayana

>> No.15464609

>>15464535
>why Buddhists both then and today tend to be rootless cosmopolitans
>ignores that Buddhist monks' temples are no where near cosmopolitans cities.

>who have an antipathy towards tradition
>ignores the fact their tradition is much older than anything in the west.

100% of your post is incorrect. see me after class

>> No.15464635

>>15464535
>Buddhists both then and today tend to be rootless cosmopolitans who have an antipathy towards tradition
and that's a good thing

>> No.15464773
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15464773

>>15464635
>and that's a good thing

>> No.15465059
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15465059

>>15464422
t.

>> No.15465120
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15465120

>>15465059