/lit/ - Literature

>>15442912
just hit yourself on the head with a brick and you'll be about as enlightened as a gnostic

I'll sum it up for you, in the beggining all things were whole until Yahweh went "uh oh, stinky" and all spirit became entrapped in a cgi model reality which is a parody of the spiritual reality. Sophia saw this and cringed so hard that Jesus incarnated into the model reality to give wisdom to the entrapped souls, but the Jews crucified his hologram and ever since the world has been going through cycles of revolution

>>15442918
>>15442959
>christian gnosticism
yikes

>>15442912
Nag Hammadi Library

>>15442959
Based baudrillard poster

>>15442912
I suggest you find a couple tranny blogs on tumblr.

>>15443242
t. kike

>>15442912
Is it even a complete theological system? I can't tell. It might just be cryptopaganism or worse, cryptoplatonism.

>>15442912
Gnosticism is just judeo-christians realizing that buddhism is true.

Jacques Lacarriere - The Gnostics
Hans Jonas - The Gnostic Religion
Kurt Rudolph - Gnosticism

>>15443451
cringe take
>>15443495
based

>>15442912
Eric Voegelin talked a lot about it, although he was aggressively against it. That being said, The New Science of Politics is a good place to start.

>>15443596
Voegelin's gnosticism has nothing to do with authentic gnosticism, gnosticism is not immanentist or utopic

Anything written before the Nag Hammadi Library was found is worthless, so you can discard anything Christians say about it

>>15443482
Why would they need Buddhism? They were influenced by Hermes and Plato.

>>15442912
Books of Psalms, the Prophet Isaiah, Book of Wisdom.

>>15443634

>For the worship of abominable idols is the cause, and the beginning and end of all evil.
>For either they are mad when they are merry: or they prophesy lies, or they live unjustly, or easily forswear themselves.
>For whilst they trust in idols, which are without life, though they swear amiss, they look not to be hurt.
>But for two things they shall be justly punished, because they have thought not well of God, giving heed to idols, and have sworn unjustly, in guile despising justice.

(Wisdom 14:27-30)

>For of a truth, O Lord, the kings of the Assyrians have laid waste lands, and their countries.
>And they have cast their gods into the fire, for they were not gods, but the works of men's hands, of wood and stone: and they broke them in pieces.
>And now, O Lord our God, save us out of his hand: and let all the kingdoms of the earth know, that thou only art the Lord.

(Isaiah 37:18-20)

>The idols of the Gentiles are silver and gold, the works of men's hands.
>They have a mouth, but they speak not: they have eyes, but they see not.
>They have ears, but they hear not: neither is there any breath in their mouths.
>Let them that make them be like to them: and every one that trusteth in them.

(Psalm 134:15-18)

Reconnaissance mission, the Orion nebula, large-yield antimatter ordnance. We must.

>>15443687
Fuck off demiurge. You will not be gaining my soul with your lies.

>>15443693
Some shitter building a bomb in his garage to kill the demiurge sounds like the premise of a lost Pynchon novel.

>>15443675
Christians made sure to kill them all, destroy all their texts, etc. and the only information we had about them came in the form of defamation by Christians. This still shapes what many believe about Gnosticism.

In 1945 the Nag Hammadi Library was found. Someone had been told to destroy a bunch of Gnostic books, but instead of destroying them, he buried them. By pure chance they were found at a time when Christianity was completely impotent to do anything about it.

>>15443695
>Then the cities of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will go and cry to the gods to whom they make offerings, but they cannot save them in the time of their trouble.
Jeremiah 11:12

You think Christians seethe about atheism? Watch them turn into genocidal maniacs when it comes to Gnosticism

>>15443695
“Go and cry out to the gods whom you have chosen; let them save you in the time of your distress.”

>>15443752
fuck off brainlet christoid

>>15443733
that's because gnosticism is the real christianity

>>15443752

>>15443451
>Is it even a complete theological system?
And the Bible is? The mother of incoherence?

>gnosticism
"Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind."
(Colossians 2:18)

>>15443752
Nicean Christians have battered woman syndrome

>>15443733
Stop making up arguments in your own head, schizo.

>>15443797
Considering Christians murdered gnostics and burned their texts in the past, he's not making up arguments

>>15443797
seethe

>And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” ...
(Acts 14:13-15:29)

>>15442959
here's a nice meme so you stop being ignorant anon

>>15443809
So is there a sect of Christians still existing today who dedicate their lives to hunting down Gnostics?
Ask any Christian what they think of Gnosticism. They wont seethe. They dont even know what it is.

"For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you."
(Acts 17:23)

>>15443846
He says, while there's a Christian in this very thread having a mental breakdown and spamming Bible passages telling people they will go to hell.

>>15443846
>today
It's almost like there are secular laws that prevent Christians from acting on their deleterious and/or genocidal impulses.

>>15443196
/thread

>>15443858
Well this wouldnt be /lit/ without a resident christian schizo.

While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” At that, Paul left the Council. Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

(Acts 17:16-34)

>>15443846
If they could they would, luckily the Catholic church has for the most part been defanged

"Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf."

(1 Corinthians 10:14-17)

>>15443934
They're just going to do it to themselves. No need for any external action when idolatry degrades the soul itself.

“Those who cling to worthless idols turn away from God’s love for them."
(Jonah 2:8)

"Those who run after other gods will suffer more and more. I will not pour out libations of blood to such gods or take up their names on my lips. "
(Psalm 16:4)

>>15443898
>A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him.
this sounds like something from 4channel.

>>15443698
theres a book called 'the gnostic pynchon' if youre interested in that

>>15443898
Based. Refute this, pagans.

>>15444033
any modern writer/tv-producer/etc (especially american) is already gnostic without even realizing it. you see this degeneracy woven in everywhere.

>>15444033
I actually hate Pynchon but... I'm gonna pick this up.

>>15444077
yes I'm sure Anderson Cooper subscribes to the belief that only knowledge can liberate us from the heimarmene lol

PKD, almost all of it

>>15444109
fun game to play go on google books and search up any thinker and put either 'gnostic' or hemetic' infront of it

What is blasphemy against the holy spirit? Serious question, it's in the Christian texts, and it's in the Gnostic texts as well

>>15445580
Not an expert on it, but it's basically the highest types of sins which make you unable to ask God for repentance any longer. An example would be vehemently denying miracles and trying to explain them away with magic or tricks or science, rewriting the Gospel while calling yourself a Christian, etc (what Tolstoy did and was condemned for). Or persisting in the belief that Christ used magic or demonry in his miracles (this is what the pharisees did and where the term comes from). It's not a simple denial or even insult to God, but a complete falling away of your spirit. You're essentially denying the holyness of God and so can have no salvation, as salvation only comes from the Holy One.

I would say that claims that the Old Testament God is a different God from Christ and a demon would fall dangerously close to this as well.

>Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

>But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

>Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

>“Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

>“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

>>15445651
leave slave of saklas

>>15445651
>I would say that claims that the Old Testament God is a different God from Christ and a demon would fall dangerously close to this as well.

>>15442959
>t. hasn't read the Old Testament where Jesus Christ is identified with Sofia

Cringe.

Can someone tell me what's the relation between Jung and Gnosticism? He seems to be at the very least very interested in it.

>>15443842
What the... this spooky

>>15445676
I hate this shit and I don't know where it comes from. God kills people so he is evil?

Do some people even realize how stupid they are?

>>15445880
Have you even read the old testament? How is that God not evil, demented, and sadistic? Maybe you don't realize how stupid YOU are

>>15445857
Both ideologies spawn from the same demon.

>>15443898
why didn't they stone him or something, like this jewish niggas comes to your city and starts talking shit about how things have been for the last millenia lmao

>>15442912
just read the enneads and take the plotinus pill

>>15444024
>And fearing the news, the Stoic philosophers enquired: "Source?" while the more obstinate proclaimed: "make your way back to >>>/israel/ and never visit this counsil again"

>>15445880
>God kills people so he is evil?

Yes, retard?

>>15443695

>>15443898

>the man he has appointed

That’s a low Christology you got there, Paul.

>>15443451
There's nothing crypto about the Platonic influence on gnosticism. There were fragments of Plato's dialogues among the Nag Hammadi manuscripts. All early Christians were influenced by Platonism, jist read Justin Martyr, he directly references Plato and claims the philosopher received incomplete revelations from the Jewish/Christian God.

>>15442912

>>15442912

>>15449579
And yet the frog still fights, and wins.

>>15442912
I fully understood it a few years ago when working nightshifts in hotel security and reading Gnostic texts while drinking insane amounts of coffee and getting extremely paranoid that my boss is watching me reading through the cameras (wasn't there obviously) and experiencing the physical world as a solid prison. Thought of blowing my brains there on the entrance stairs.
Since I tried psychedelics I can't believe in dualism anymore though.

>>15450521
why

>>15450530
Mainly because of the experience of everything as one and the lack of clear division between the physical and mental/spiritual.
It also made me appreciate the beauty of the physical world much more and accept the fact that I need to live in it.

>>15442912
Shove your head in your colon and you'll understand that you are the demiurge.

>>15443842
That's actually better than most Gnostic literature, congrats.

>>15442918

>>15446734
Cause they were Greeks, not Muslims.

Is there anything more laughable than the cringe faith knows as gnosticism? It only exists as a larp on the internets.

>>15452228
gnosticism is the only faith that solves the question of evil

>>15452242
You only need to "solve" it if you assume a false understanding of evil.

>>15452252
>this cope again

Christianity can't answer the problem of evil.

>>15452257
>problem
We don't recognize it as a "problem" because it assumes a false pagan understanding of good and evil. There's nothing to "solve" if you do not adopt the philosophies of idolators.

>>15452275
Christianity is a religion of blind following, you essentially rely on a book to tell you what is good and evil. Those who have souls intuitively know.

>>15452294
>soul
>intuitively know
You rely on a fallen naturalistic world to tell you what is true.
We rely on God in the flesh and his self-revelation to tell what is true.

>>15452305
God is within, I know the light and don't rely on false duality. Unconditional love supersedes everything, you are wrong but I forgive you.

>>15452315
Which god? Why is he within a bugman? Seems like a god not worthy of worship.

>>15452323
God is the true light, God is wisdom and unconditional love. God is not like any ruler of this reality, God is not jealous or demanding of attention because God is truth itself

>>15452275
Christianity invented the theodicy you cretin.

>>15452305
Gnosis doesn't look to nature as a moral guide, this is false. Gnosticism is acosmic.

>>15452242
Zoroastrianism too. Check out Mardānfarrox's Doubt-dispelling exposition.
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/shkand-gumanig-wizar

M.A. Williams "Rethinking 'Gnosticism'" is the only book you need to read on the subject.

>>15452342
>"invented" the theodicy
What does this even mean? We only explain the concept to refute pagan bugmen. Christianity never recognizes the real existence of evil so there is no "problem" to solve.

>>15452342
>a moral guide
To be fair, gnosticism does not look to any moral guides. They are hedonist degenerates by nature.
>Gnosticism is acosmic.
And yet every gnostic bugman on 4channel relies on materialist modernity and its new discoveries of ancient texts (which only exist materially) to "practice" their "faith". Seems highly cosmic and nature-dependent to me.

>>15452375
>Christianity never recognizes the real existence of evil so there is no "problem" to solve.
Well, that's pretty vile. No wonder there are innumerable antinomian aristocratic circles practicing creepy occult and sacrificial rituals. You antinomianists are truly demons.

>>15452375
I was a Gnostic as a child, the nag hammadi texts are only letters of confirmation and consolation

>>15452375
Ascetic gnosticism is a verifiable phenomenon don't pretend there were only libertines.

Is your other argument literally "if you hate science why are you using a computer??" Lmao. If you love heaven so much why don't you kill yourself?

>>15452375
Ok, what is evil? How did it come into existence?

>>15452393
>Well, that's pretty vile.
>No wonder there are innumerable antinomian aristocratic circles practicing creepy occult and sacrificial rituals.
>You antinomianists are truly demons.

>>15452394
>I was a Gnostic as a child
Most of us in modernity were pretty deluded as children.

>>15452393
>Well, that's pretty vile
We do not go by what a bugman thinks is vile. It's completely irrelevant to us.

>>15452446
>is a verifiable phenomenon
Asceticism involves not praying to demons, as all asceticism is a cleansing from sin. Merely dropping the obvious hedonism isn't sufficient to be fully ascetic. You're still chasing intellectual/spiritual highs when you pray to the gnostic demons under the guise of "meditation".
>Is your other argument literally "if you hate science why are you using a computer??" Lmao.
No. Hating science does not mean that "science" has an actual real metaphysical influence all over the world which alters your perception of reality. If the material world is an evil demon, then relying on it exclusively to get your silly "faith" is just playing into the demon's hand. You're being tricked even under your silly gnosticism. So much for "enligthenment".
>If you love heaven so much why don't you kill yourself?
Because I do not decide when I die and suicide is a sin.

>>15452520
What demons am I praying to? The redeemer acts in the material world, so no, it isn't jettisoned completely at this stage. I have a feeling you don't know what you're talking about.

>>15452460
>what is evil?
There are only negative/apophatic definitions as "the lack of good", as it is not a comprehensible/real entity, for it were, then there would be a "lack of good", but this isn't possible because the Logos is good and omnipresent.
>How did it come into existence?
It didn't. Evil is analogous to non-existence rather than existence. It wasn't created and does not exist by essence.

>>15452538
>What demons am I praying to?
I wouldn't know. I don't call upon them when meditating. I assume each cult has its own demons in charge of deluding the practitioners.
>it isn't jettisoned completely
But the source of the "redeemer" is entirely non-material and he himself isn't material in a real way. Your entire practice relies on discovering old material books by atheist materialist hedonists. It isn't "pure ascetic intellectualist gnostics" pushing gnosticism in modernity, it's the moderns who are trying to take you down with them.

>>15452541
>trotting out privatio boni like a good cuck

Like clockwork. What is this non-existent thing with no properties that the entire drama of redemption exists to extirpate? Try harder.

@15452561
>that the entire drama of redemption exists to extirpate
Redemption is needed for theosis, not for "destroying evil". Redemption is a positive participation in Christ's glory, not a mere negation.

>>15452553
So you aren't even glancingly familiar with the most basic gnostic teachings?

>atheist materialist hedonists

Tradcaths are so cringe. Ancient gnostics from Alexandria are some soi boy caricature now. Lmao what a load. I can tell you're a mutt.

>>15452572
>most basic gnostic teachings
I'm sorry that I am not familiar with the "female godhead sophia-semen drinking" practices.
>Ancient gnostics from Alexandria are some soi boy caricature now.
They are, only an onions-boy would meditate like a good modern instead of praying like Abraham or David did.
>I can tell you're a mutt.
I'm neither a mutt nor am I a latin catholic.

>>15452568
Kek, humanity must extract itself from a negative condition that an omnipotent being can't ameloriate in any way, sure thing buster, and don't give me the free will argument you cuck, there are no constraints on an all-powerful being that prevent him from creating free beings that are essentially good.

>Pistis Sophia
>Gospel of Judas
>Gospel of Thomas

>>15452581
>no insight or understanding, just caricatures and hand-me-down augustine

Get outta here you cuck

>>15452587
>omnipotent being can't ameloriate in any way
That is what Christ did with His death and resurrection and you are free to participate in it by baptism and the other Holy Mysteries of the Church. Be thankful that His seconding coming isn't happening right now, as it won't end well for the gnostic degenerates.
>that prevent him
You are trapped in false dialectics. God willing to create us with the ability to defy His will does not imply an inability to create us in another way. You're complaining about God not following your subjective notions of how He should have created us with no ability to fall away from Him. God sovereignly decides how to create and how to deal with creation, not you.

>>15452607
Saint Augustine correctly refuted all of paganism and gnosticism. You could learn a lot from him.

>>15442912
dead sea scrolls lol theres not much there because only the oppositoon to gnostics wrote the history of them, very little besides the dead sea scrolls remain and if im correct they werent even left by a fully gnostic group?

>>15452587
>humanity must extract itself
only bugs thinks like this. you can't save yourself.

>>15452627
I can see how well he's dealing with it so far. You sound like one of Job's cuck friends. Nice of God to excuse his own duality but punish man for his, and the entire natural sphere on top of it.

>>15452633
Yawn, if you say so cringelet

>>15452648
Through the participated glory of Christ, yap yap yap, snap to it you autist

>>15452654
>I can see how well he's dealing with it so far.
You can't see reality correctly due to the gnosticism and demon prayers eroding your ability to see things as they are, in their essence, how God created them. Try cleansing your mind from all of this confusion and read the Gospel with the pure and honest desire to understand, then you may start to see.
>excuse his own duality
There are no cringe dialectic "dualities" in God.

>>15452668
>Through the participated glory of Christ, yap yap yap, snap to it you autist
>Yawn, if you say so cringelet

>>15452677
Clearly there are, if he is able to generate free creatures that capable of transgressing his law.

>>15452681
lol soijaks from channer shitter tradcaths, fucking hilarious

>>15452681
>>15452633
>>15452627
>>15452595
>>15452520
yahweh cucks unironically worship a demon, but they're so cucked they can't imagine what existence would be like without constant fear and hysteria

>>15452688
>Clearly there are
Says you, who has no truth and is in a deeply confused and fallen state. Why would I trust your testimony over the testimony of the incarnate Logos and of the saints, who cleansed themselves and are now with God?
>generate free creatures that capable of transgressing his law
God created us out of His excessive love, so that we may choose Him and love Him freely and without compulsion. You don't decide how to create and what is more valuable in creation, only God does.

>>15452704
I can't tell if this is a troll or you've got a sporangium piloting your brain stem. Remember to drink lots of water.

@15452701
>damned
All of the dead infants (and adults) before Christ came ended up in Sheol, not hell or eternal damnation. Even executing a sodomite under the Law would not send him to hell for that specific sin.

>>15452701
>NOOOO WHY CAN GOD PUNISH PEOPLE WHO ENGAGE IN IDOLATRY AND DEGENERACY THEIR JUST PRAYING TO A STATUE THERES NO FRICKIN HARM IN IT! WE NEED TO RESPECT ALL FAITHS AND ALL SEXUALITIES REGARDLESS OF GENDER!!

>>15452718
From what I understand in Christian theology, Sheol is just a waiting room before judged at the final judgement

>>15452729
Here's a picture of your daddy God, don't think just obey

>>15452729
>gnosticism is neoliberalism

Mutts need to be gassed.

>AKSHULLY YAHWEH ISN'T EVIL FOR ORDERING THE MURDER OF COUNTLESS INFANTS BECAUSE THEY ONLY WENT TO THE BETA VERSION OF HELL AND ONLY HAD TO WAIT THERE FOR CENTURIES FOT GOD TO COME BACK AND GET THEM

>>15452735
Yes, and the death penalty for idolatry would pay for the sin like an animal sacrifice would pay for a more minor sin. All will still be judged when Christ descends for the second time.

>>15452735
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particular_judgment

>>15452745
>WAIT THERE FOR CENTURIES
Why is this not better? I thought you guys hated the material world. Why not thank God for freeing the children from it?

>>15452743
It essentially is. Gnostics were bugman anti-natalists and used the same materialist arguments neoliberals do for their "open sex" policies.

>>15452743
>>gnosticism is neoliberalism

>>15452761
Name one argument.

>>15452761
>>15452743
>>15452729
Liberalism and the enlightenment is based, almost all traditional Christian countries are shitholes

>>15452767
>Body is temporary anyway, we should have fun while we can and use tantric practices to reach higher states.

>>15452774
Can you find me a single passage from the Nag Hammadi that says that?

>>15443985
If that’s the case, then why did the Christians go to war in the past.

>>15452761
>Why is this not better? I thought you guys hated the material world. Why not thank God for freeing the children from it?
ummm... maybe you could just not murder innocent babies in the first place? lol

It's not a good sign when to explain away why the Demon you worship had babies murdered you have to appeal to how it makes more sense in gnosticism anyway

>>15452784

not that guy, but it is outright slander from ancient church figures like st. iraeneus. read 'the christians as the romans saw them' for a very detailed explanation

>>15452809
Destroying the gnostics in war is preferable for the gnostic himself, so that he does not degenerate himself further.

>>15452810
>innocent
>implying original sin doesn't condemn you to death
>implying God isn't sovereign over the method he uses to enact your inevitable death

>>15452821
>>15452809
Christians can't debate Gnostics, so they just turn to violence in order silence their opposition.

>>15452784
The part where it discuses how donkeys mingle with donkeys and how we should emulate that to reach a higher state.

>>15452819
>not that guy, but it is outright slander from ancient church figures like st. iraeneus. read 'the christians as the romans saw them' for a very detailed explanation

>>15452834
Original sin is ridiculous, humans don't need to apologize for existing

>>15452839
>Christians can't debate Gnostics
Gnostics and neo-platonists were constantly being intellectually refuted by the councils. Too bad they didn't repent and turn away from their degeneracy.

>>15452848
>Original sin is ridiculous
Humans don't decide what is ridiculous or not. You don't need to apologize for Adam's sin, as you do not have the explicit guilt, but the consequence of death is still inherited so you are destined to die. Who are you to tell God how to enact this death?

>>15452834
>worshipping and defending a child-eating demon that controls space and time

kek too easy

>>15452845
I don't believe you pseud. Post sources.

>>15452858
So it's more reasonable to assume a god of infinite love condemns the universe and countless sentient beings to the miseries of death than an actual demon? why can't he rewrite the laws of sin? Why is he so constrained by the creation he is sovereign over? Lol mutt

>>15452858
>Gnostics and neo-platonists were constantly being intellectually refuted by the councils.
Gnostics never got refuted, they were murdered and had all their texts burned by the "church"
>Humans don't decide what is ridiculous or not.
Some of us possess a divine spark and are receptive to wisdom, maybe you're a hylic and genuinely don't understand anything, not everyone exists in pure darkness.

>>15452894
>Some of us possess a divine spark and are receptive to wisdom, maybe you're a hylic and genuinely don't understand anything, not everyone exists in pure darkness.

>>15452876
>more reasonable
>muh REASON

>>15452924
Unless its gnostics and neoplatonists getting btfo by the councils, then reason is heckin epicrino

>>15452894
>they were murdered and had all their texts burned by the "church"
Don't pervert the faith and repent after being refuted and this will not happen. Do you also cry about the degenerate aztecs being wiped out for their crimes against God?
>Some of us possess a divine spark
And yet you are shitposting on 4channel...

>>15452939
Reason is only good when it is enlightened by Christ. Bugmanistic gnostic 'reason' is vain and leads only to destruction.

>>15452924
confirmed retard

>>15453013
Wisdom itself is God

>>15453019
Your thinking is poisoned by modernity, a period defined by its sole hatred of traditional and true Chrisitanity. Naturally you won't be able to see the truth unless you recognize this and work to change it.

>>15453013
Yes I converse often with my bugman consumerist friends about Yaldabaoth and the fire-seas lmao

>>15453024
Then you admit that you have no wisdom if you deny Christ.

>>15452491
>>15452520
Original Sin is one of the stupidest ideas in all of theology. Also, I'm not a Gnostic, but I am very sympathetic to them and find myself influenced by then. Ditheism makes more sense than monotheism.

>>15452745
>>15452729
>>15452681
>>15452595
>>15452491
>>15452845
>>15452924
>>15452917
>>15453019
kys

>>15453028
>muh modernity
larp

>>15453028
The form of Christianity you follow was largely influenced by a North African mongrel who was filled with ressentiment, lol.

>>15453035
I don't deny Christ, I'm a Christian Gnostic afterall

>>15453037
It doesn't matter what a bug thinks is stupid or not.
>I am very sympathetic to them
We can tell by your completely confused thinking and an inability to decide on truth or even know what your position is. Gnosticism is just an amourphous blob of ideas where you pick and choose things based on your fallen and degenerated subjective preferences.

>>15453053
>bug bug bug bug
This is you https://youtu.be/Xe0fvUgvvQg

>>15453053
Your stupidity is on the level of Rapture believing kike-dick sucking Southern American rednecks. I don't believe you're European for a second. You're just making a bunch of presumptions regarding my beliefs based on what little I've said. Why don't you read some more theological texts outside of whipping yourself for kikes?

>>15453052
>Christian Gnostic
No such thing. Gnosticism is refuted in every single true gospel. Also, gnostics deny the two natures of Christ, so you cannot post that icon and call yourself a gnostic.
>I don't deny Christ
How does that manifest? You follow some vague distorted version of Chrisitanity and don't even recognize Christ's divinity and his ability to not let his teachings get instantly corrupted.

>gnosticism
so if this thread is any indication, it's basically a religion crying about how evil the Old Testament is? how is it different from the plebbit liberals?

>>15453067
>muh ecclesiastical authority

Kek

>>15453067
No, historically speaking, your form of Christianity came after Gnosticism, you illiterate dumb piece of shit. St. Augustine was much later.
Honestly, I find it hilarious how you get so worked up over Semitic beliefs. You're incapable of separating metaphysics from myth and even understanding its historical development in an unbiased, impartial manner.

>>15453079
Have you ever thought maybe there's a reason why the church™ killed people for reading the bible?

>>15442912
550-700 mg of benadryl

>>15453084
>muh free liberal interpretation of christianity

>>15453099
Marcion and many other Gnostic figures was before St. Augustine... One can understand their views through cursory overviews on encyclopedias.

>>15453099
Keep mooing faggot

>>15453104
>was
were*

>>15453089
>your form of Christianity came after Gnosticism
Historically speaking, my form of Chrisitanity began when history began with Adam. Gnosticism is just a paganized distortion of Christianity with no basis in revelation. It's just a secular philosophy trying to seem like it has anything to do with Christ's teachings.

>separating metaphysics from myth
How do you determine true metaphysics? Just follow what a modern scholar thinks is the true interpretation of Christianity?

>historical development in an unbiased, impartial manner
What makes you think that the modern atheistic skeptic way of looking at history is in any way unbiased or impartial?

>>15453118
Are you American?

>>15453104
>St. Augustine
Christianity didn't start with Saint Augustine, but with Christ and his apostles. Marcion and other degenerates were too stupid to understand the Old Testament so they started innovating and adding in their own gentile ideas into divine revelation.

>>15453128
Again, are you American?

>>15453129
No. America is just a spawn of OT-denying masonic gnosticism, exactly the stuff you've been tricked into believing.

>>15453131
You should move to America because you are genetic trash in whatever country you're in.

>>15453135
I'm the dominant ethnicity in my country, why move to a liberal melting pot? Genetic trash is a modernist notion the bugmen came up with based on materialist and gnostic delusions.

>>15453140
How is gnosticism materialist lol please tell us

>>15442912

Pre requisites:
Industrial Society and its Future
Blood Meridian
Berserk
The Bible

>>15453095
>implying reading the bible is the same as trying to pervert it with demonic messages and getting rightfully punished for it

Holy shit. I thought this thread was dying but it still teems with retarded people who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about and are just resorting to gnosticism so as to have a (faux-) faith and attack Christianity. I have posted the same thing over and over in many different threads and absolutely no one can refute it: EVIL DOES NOT EXIST. Yes, it has no existence in itself. It depends on existence, Being, Life, Power in order to be what it is. You are all intellectually amateurish, just move along and stop wasting your lives.

>>15453140
You are the genetic trash of your ethnicity, and you will be helping them by leaving. Consider it genetic winnowing. You are a complete idiot who cannot separate personal biases from impartial analysis. You lack the capacity to also disagree without coming off like a jackass. Kant disagreed with Hume without becoming a prick like you. People like you deserve to be bullied, tortured, and impaled. Go to America and eat shit. Spare your countrymen the misery of your shitbrain.

>>15453148
They are extremely related in that they are trapped at the naturalistic/created level. Gnostics get their ideas from their own created minds and from fallen angels, the same goes for materialists.

>>15453140
>>15453163
Also, there's no point in debating with someone like you who denies basic historical facts. Slit your fucking throat and suffer in excruciating agony for eternities in hell.

>>15453163
>separate personal biases from impartial analysis
Where is the impartial analysis in americanistic gnosticism? You presuppose that the Old Testament God is evil and then try extremely hard to find historical "proofs" of it and misconstrue Christianity to fit your goals. It's completely biased and incoherent.

>>15453168
>denies basic historical facts
Which historical fact did I deny?

>>15453163
>who cannot separate personal biases from impartial analysis
>he still believes in skeptical "impartial analysis" in 2020
lmao. self-refuting. your desire to be "skeptic" is a bias.

>>15453160
I'll show you evil has positive existence after I'm done with you.

>>15453165
Specifics, junior.

>>15453160

Evil is real and wants to eat you.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."

>>15453184
>>15453185
As usual, ye lack reading comprehension. Evil has no existence in itself, it is parasitic. Read what I wrote again, try to using your brains this time.

>>15453202
The parasite is coeternal with its host, deal with it.

>>15453212
>coeternal
Creation is not eternal and evil is parasitic only on creation.

>>15453202
I agree that evil is parasitic, but the question is about the origin of evil. What is the origin of evil? In your worldview, you have no choice but to say God. Gnostics say demiurge, prince of darkness, or whatever depending on the school. It's fine. It's merely a difference in metaphysics. Having a minor theological dispute makes neither side "bug people".

>>15453220
evil has cosmogonic power, deal with it. it's either that or just admit you worship the prime mover of a polarized void and that's that. what's there to worship in that?

>>15453225
>What is the origin of evil?
>In your worldview, you have no choice but to say God.
Something which does not exist does not have an origin. Non-existence isn't a real force. God is not the source of "non-existence".

>>15453239
Then what is parasitical, huh? Something has to exist to corrupt or parasitize the good.

>>15453225
>It's fine. It's merely a difference in metaphysics. Having a minor theological dispute makes neither side "bug people".

>>15453249
>Then what is parasitical
The purely grammatical construct known as "evil" by the bugmen who criticize our God for the current state of the world.

>>15453238
>evil has cosmogonic power
Only if you are a bugman. I am not, so I will not accept this.
>you worship the prime mover
I worship Christ, His Father and the Holy Spirit. God is a creator, not an abstract mover.

>>15453267
do people who freeze to death die of misrecognizing a grammatical construct because cold is the absence of heat?

>mfw a bugperson mentions the word 'evil'.

>>15453272
no lmao, it's precisely because you ARE a bugbrain that you won't accept it.

>>15453259
Dumbass, you don't even believe in the existence of evil, so your meme image makes no sense.
>>15453267
First off, that's not an argument, you smug bastard.
>bugmen
Second off, you, yourself, deserve to be disemboweled and carved into a bug.

>>15453279
>cold is the absence of heat
Only abstractly. In the material realm, cold really and actually subsists in matter such as ice, which has real existence.

>>15453290
so evil is a non-existent property with positive material existence?

>>15453285
>you don't even believe in the existence of evil
But I do believe in the existence of angels and in the angelic fall, so the image makes a lot of the sense. And realistically, it is the only actual explanation for the various heresies which are extremely similar once you look at it deeply and understand that they're all elaborate ploys with the sole goal of turning you away from the fullness of truth in Christ.

>>15453301
How can fallen angels will non-being if it doesn't exist?

>>15453301
You need to learn how to engage in respectful theological and philosophical argumentation. It is possible to debate without hurling insults. The only way you are able to maintain your faith is via hysterics and demeaning others.
>they're all elaborate ploys with the sole goal of turning you away from the fullness of truth in Christ.
These are not real arguments. I think the same thing about many people, but I am able to frame my arguments in a respectful and sophisticated manner. With you this is impossible. I hate to say it, but unless you fix your act, you genuinely deserve to die. Learn how to debate with courteous or slit your fucking throat.

>>15453296
'evil' has no subsistence, as nothing was created evil in essence.
'cold' does have real subsistence in 'ice', so it is both an absence of heat and a real subsistence. 'evil' on the other hand is only an absence.

>>15453307
they can choose to move away from God's will through their positively existing will. it is merely a foolish desire for non-being which they will never achieve, instead they will witness God's Being and Glory eternally, burning them due to their willfull hatred of God.

>>15453317
>courteous
courtesy*
I have had far more interesting conversations with Buddhists and Hindus on here fyi. I have read many their texts, and I have also read much on Catholicism, which I presume is what you follow, watched Fulton J. Sheen's videos, and much more.
Something about you orthodox Abrahamic followers genuinely makes me want to kill you. I'm not joking.

>>15453317
>you genuinely deserve to die
>engage in respectful theological and philosophical argumentation.

>>15453323
evil isn't an inert absence but a positive and living reality. I know it and you know it. stop playing games with words. I squirm thinking about the dopamine wash you get when you start capitalizing

>>15453337
>but a positive and living reality
Only if you are a bugman who trusts yourself over Christ.

>>15453335
I am saying this after you repeatedly insulted and called Gnostics "bugmen", among other things. That's not how you engage in respectful dialogue.

>>15453341
How old are you?

>>15453331
>I have had far more interesting conversations with Buddhists and Hindus on here fyi.
Cheap interest and thrills isn't what interest me. I care about truth more than praying to a cast idol made of metal which cannot speak or hear and is a mere teacher of lies, trying to lead you into literal disgusting non-being (nirvana).

>>15453341
kek nothing will transfigure this world but death, go down into the dirt apologizing for a spider like the rest of them fucking scum

>>15453355
21. I am glad that I discovered Christ early in my life and didn't have to go through 30 years of gnosticism before finally repenting on my deathbed if I'm lucky enough.

>>15453356
I am able to talk to people who I disagree with in a respectful manner unlike you. It seems you are asking for a war rather than a respectful theological dispute.

>>15453337
>evil isn't an inert absence but a positive and living reality.
It was repeated so many times it becomes dubious if you're engaging in discussions in good faith. I'll reiterate: it has no positive and living reality in itself. Whatever is positive and living is good and not evil. Evil depends on what is good (existence, life, power) to have them.

>>15453366
You're going to lose your faith much worse than the priest in Ingmar Bergman's Winter Light, and I will be there to drink your tears.

>>15453363
>kek nothing will transfigure this world but death
In a way, yes. But not how you think.

>>15453379
lol trust me, not how you think either spiderling

>>15453371
>respectful
I do not respect idolatry though. I do respect people made in the image of God and their good essence, but I will attach attributes like "bugmen" to make them understand the folly of their ways. Read any book in the Old Testament to see just how disgusting idolatry is and how God hates it.

>9 All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. 10 Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing? 11 Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together.

>12 The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. 13 The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil.[a] He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house. 14 He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it. 15 Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it. 16 Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!” 17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!”

>18 They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. 19 No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, “Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” 20 He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

- Isaiah 44:9-20

>>15453373
Even if evil depends on the good to parasitize, corrupt, and spread, that doesn't mean it has no existence. It is subordinate and dependent on the good which it corrupts, but this does not mean has no self-existence. I am going based on what you're saying. You're basically this non-existent "thing" depends on existence, life, and power, but an absence of something lacks the conditions and causes to impact anything on the living world because by definition it's not there. Thus, you're basically saying that evil doesn't exist but it still depends on the good?

Why don't you just saying everything is good then, you contradictory and smug bastard? You are 21 years old but with the mind of a 14 year old.

>>15443842
Please, I need a sequel.

>>15453398
>Why don't you just saying everything is good then
We as Christians do say that. All is good in essence/nature. Our God did not create anything evil.

>>15453398
>not mean has
not mean it has*
>You're basically
You're basically saying*

>>15453409
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

>>15453409
Your God created the conditions for evil, which is the capacity to go against the Ten Commandments or his "Will". Thus, he did create evil if you consider transgression of his Will evil.

>>15453398
First: I'm not the person to whom you are referring as being 21 years old.
Second: Existence is not evil in itself. It is positive and is therefore, naturally good.
Third: You agree that evil is parasitic but still can't understand how it cannot exist by itself, have power by itself (a kind of evil ''power'' in your imagination, I assume). Take your intellect for example. It is naturally good and positive, but you have defiled it to the degree of being unable to understand how basic all I'm saying to you is. Evil is a potentia. It has (acutalized) existence through good. Think about original sin, free will and the fall. Can you do that?

Evil can only exist if there is a real subsistence which embodies/instantiates the logos of evil (think of small-l logos as a non-paganized platonic form).
This is absurd, for either evil would have to be an eternal attribute of God, or God would have to create something evil by its very nature.

>>15453418
I wasn't aware that Isaiah spoke English.

>>15453436
So God creates the field of possibility for evil, which makes him the indirect creator of evil. You're just moving words around.

>>15453419
Your ancestors created the conditions for the existence of your parents who in turn begot you. Whatever evil you do all of them must be punished.

>>15453445
>creates the field of possibility for evil
What is this 'evil' He created the possibility for? If you want to explicitly define 'evil' as 'moving away from God's will', then it is not a real subsistence/power and you lose anyway. There is only one God, not two gods one of whom embodies uncreated eternal evil.

>>15453460
and yet this one God can't create without implicating this non-existent parasite, etc. you're basically saying God can't create without negating himself or his creatures, which renders him impotent and unworthy of worship.

>>15453472
>one God can't create without implicating this non-existent parasite
??
How? God can create whatever He wishes. He created humans with a free will and the ability to deny Him because He valued it more than creating robots. How does that limit God in any way?

>>15453479
he can't give humans freedom without also giving them the possibility for evil. he is constrained by the nature of freedom. that is a limitation.

>>15453486
>he is constrained by the nature of freedom.
Created human freedom does not exist prior to or apart from God, so he cannot be constrained by it by definition.
>can't give humans freedom without also giving them the possibility for evil
If we remove the wordgame you're trying to play with using the word 'evil', the very definition of freedom involves the ability to deny God. How is creating such a free being a problem/limitation for God? He did not create a separate 'evil' power aside from himself which the gnostics now worship as a separate god.

>>15453535
Kek, that is your failing, you can't imagine freedom without transgression. mutt rat

>>15453545
God created human will such that it would be able to deny God. This is evident. How does this creation limit God in any way? It's as retarded as saying that a book I write limits me because it ends in the way I explicitly wrote it to, and not in another way a bugman reader centuries down the line would prefer.

>>15453435
The issue is with you. Good also exists as a potentia technically speaking. One can just flip what you're saying and say everything is evil. Wouldn't it make sense to say that good and evil both exist as potentia? Anyways, I have to go. I'll be back to be more thorough later.

>nooo if i make a promise and keep it then that's a limitation on my very nature! we should be more liberal and understanding!!!

>>15453566
because he can't create humanity without also creating evil.

>>15444063
Easily. All he did was say take this random god as the face of a concept you already know which is much more developed than mine. Greeks separated anthropomorphic gods from this concept later 'God' for good reason. Fast forward to modern times and you have lots of dumb shit inherited from this shitty Jewish god and eventual nihilism.

>>15453574
>Good also exists as a potentia
No. Because Good subsists fully, really and actually in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is not merely a potential bugmanistic abstract power one has to try and actualize. Good is personal and concrete, not a potential.
>say everything is evil
Sure, if you want to be a bugman blasphemer.

>>15453578
This is not a problem with a correct non-gnostic understanding of the term "evil". In what way is a free created being a limitation for God?

>>15453605
>eventual nihilism
Only came about as a result of denying this "jewish god" you so despise. Try turning back to Christ and watch your nihilism vanish completely.

>>15453616
>This is not a problem with a correct non-gnostic understanding of the term "evil". In what way is a free created being a limitation for God?

because freedom is the condition of possibility for an evil that only the economy of sin and redemption can extirpate.

besides, free will is fucking incoherent dude, he won't limit me by denying my power to do evil, but he'll limit me by putting me in this particular body? don't bodies determine and limit my free will?

>>15453625
No because believing in a superstition like some jewish god with all his contradictions and muddiness is unfashionable in rational times, the concept originally unattached to a particular god gets ignorantly thrown out with him. we probably would've been better off with some greek god (they hadn't the political power) but godless is preferable for truth. btw it's hilarious how you ignore my entire post and then make up a strawman off two words.

>>15453643
>evil
>extirpate
There is nothing to 'extirpate' when everything is good by nature. This is a gnostic delusion. The goal of redemption (and of creation itself) is making humans into gods by grace, through a cooperation of God's will and human will. This is not a gnostic fight between good and evil, or a materialist fight between science and 'ignorance'.

>free will is fucking incoherent dude
I don't like the term because it has been poisoned by Americans so I'm not going to use it, and if I said anything like "free" then just assume it has a completely different meaning to whatever an American might think.

>but he'll limit me by putting me in this particular body
This is only a problem with an incorrect view of a human as a separated into parts abstract cringe being which is trapped into a shell.
We believe in a full resurrection of the physical flesh and that it is eternally linked to your very subsistence/personhood and soul.

I still do not understand how God creating a being distinct from Himself causes any limitations.

>>15453665
>unfashionable
>rational times
>originally unattached
>some greek god
>godless is preferable for truth

>>15453733
Because he's an all-powerful love god who can't even create the children he loves so much without killing them you fucking dunce. It's been explained again and again

>>15453616
You're not giving any arguments the way St. Thomas Aquinas did. Anyways, your faith is going to crumble in the near future. You don't know how to justify your beliefs outside of baseless assertions. I mean, if you're just conveying your own views that's fine, but the thing is, you have to insult other peoples' different views in order to make yourself feel better. It's quite pathetic.

>>15453665
>superstition
Why do you say this? Christ walked in the flesh and showed his glory in fullness to his disciples, who spread the message all over the world. He performed countless miracles and healed people, then was crucified and rose from the dead. Why would so many people willingly die over denying the resurrection? It seems like this hyper-skepticism you've been indoctrinated with is hurting you in seeing the truth as it is. People did not think in a bugman way of "let's just invent this from nothing and get more control" before modernity. There were schemers, but people genuinely believed in religion back then. You are applying a false modern lens to try and determine the past.

>>15453783
There was more diversity in thought before your bugman interpretations of Christianity became norm and denigrated this world.

>>15453783
Nicean Christianity was a parody of genuine Christianity, instead of bringing the light to the world (good news), they brought fear, shame, and darkness. It wasn't until the enlightenment that we began to recover

>>15453776
>your faith is going to crumble in the near future
It is amusing and kind of sad how it is so hard for the demon-tricked to see that people can still have true faith in the 21st century. It seems like you want to be a believer too but have been influenced too much by the times.
>You don't know how to justify your beliefs outside of baseless assertions.
I see how my life has changed after accepting Christ and I see the sad state of the people who fight against him. That is enough for me above all argumentation (of which there is plenty if you are willing to look).
>arguments the way St. Thomas Aquinas did
Rational arguments and even direct empirical evidence only go so far. You need to truly love Christ above all else to not fall away. Even Judas who was an apostle did betray Christ.

>The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.


>>15453802
>diversity in thought
Why is diversity good on its own?

>>15453854
>Nicean Christianity was a parody of genuine Christianity
what is this genuine christianity you speak of?

>>15453776
>any arguments
All argumentation must be rooted in God to be correct. Rationality is not a separate entity you can draw from which exists prior to God.

>>15442959
So what happens after death? Does something like hell exist? Is there any justice after death? That's all I'm interested in, I'm a justicefag and I want to know if bad people are rightfully punished after death or not

>>15453859
>demon-tricked to see that people can still have true faith in the 21st century.
"demon-tricked"
But I thought evil doesn't exist?
>It seems like you want to be a believer too but have been influenced too much by the times.
I am believer in a different theistic system.
>I see how my life has changed after accepting Christ and I see the sad state of the people who fight against him.
That's fine, but you're not arguing in a scholarly manner. You're debating like a Southern American redneck hillbilly. You are a bugman with your homoerotic obsession with an irrelevant Jew. They weren't even the major players of the region at that time.
>Rational arguments and even direct empirical evidence only go so far.
Then why engage in discussion? Is it because you wish to hurl insults? I can do the same thing you dumb piece of shit. Moreover, I have complex phenomenological, philosophical, and etc. arguments for my own views, though I am hesitant to share them fully because I plan to publish them in the future.
>Even Judas who was an apostle did betray Christ.
I have issues with such views. You believe even deceit and heinous crime can be forgiven if one repents on his or her deathbed. They can be cleansed of all sin then and go to the Father. Such views are disgusting to me. Certain crimes and conduct in life curse oneself to hell, and forgiveness is not possible. You are a bugman who is weak and prefers privileging faith over deeds, much like that dirty Jew of the deserts.
>Why is diversity good on its own?
Did I claim diversity was good? I am simply stating fact there was a huge diversity of thought back then and it's just coincidence that your school became commonplace, hence why you resort to shitty arguments and insults to make yourself feel better. You are ultimately weak, mentally speaking. You cannot handle people of differing views who are better at framing arguments. You would be chewed up in Athens.

>>15453887
Mainstream Abrahamic adherents don't have a monopoly on what is God. I have more respect for the philosophizing Greek who comes to the conclusion of God via his own intellect and direct experience than a weak piece of shit like you who needs some kike savior to spell everything out.

>>15453891
In the end, God will shine forth his eternal glory onto the whole world, like he did on Mt.Tabor. This will be hurtful to those who hate Christ and did not align their will with him, and it will be an eternal source of peace to those who love Christ.

>>15453925
>via his own intellect
This is idolatry. Do not worship a created intellect, but worship Christ, the creator of this intellect.
>direct experience
We do have a direct experience of Christ in this life in the Eucharist. The Greek philosopher only has a glimpse of the truth, while we have the fullness.

>>15453958
>We do have a direct experience of Christ in this life in the Eucharist.
If you were brought up in a different culture, you wouldn't even know about Christ. Your whole religion is based on faith of a divine revelation, which you weren't there to witness. It's not something you can learn through reflecting on experience, rational or empirical inquiry, or anything. You just take a bunch of desert myths regarding that kike's resurrection as fact. How do you know? Don't you realize plenty of self-proclaimed prophets existed during his time who were claimed to do miracle? Mysticism should be guided by some degree of rational insight and not just bugman blind obedience and faith.

>>15453891
My theory is that everything will be set free, those with true souls will reunite with the light and all the animals/hylics will dissolve into love energy

>>15453958
What about people who are neutral? I think that's your average person in the west now. They neither love nor hate Christ. They usually don't even think about it that much. So what about people who are unaware and just don't care? Are they still judged by the same standards? For adultery, for example, or for being an abusive parent etc.

>>15453998
Those who heard and did not follow or care do not truly love Christ. Those who did not hear will still be judged by the law inscribed onto their hearts by Christ.

"I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power.
By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just;
by me princes govern, and all nobles who rule on earth.
I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

(Proverbs 8:12-17)

>every time god shows up, he gives people diseases or tells them to murder and rape
wait, doesn't this mean god is evil, and good is the absence of god?
i mean even right now, i was enjoying my leisurely evening 4channel and then i saw a bunch of autistic bugman posting in the name of yahweh
why would yahweh be on the side of soijack posters unless he was evil?

Anonymous 05/25/20(Mon)19:07:13 No.15452924▶>>15452939 >>15453019 >>15453044
File: Gnostic Dance.gif (3.8 MB, 224x224)
3.8 MB
>>15452876
>more reasonable
>muh REASON

>>15454046
But the "god" of old testament is not Jesus

>>15454127
God forbid we use rationality instead of acting like superstitious niggers

https://discord.gg/FFwRXKq

>>15453280
>personal attacks against my enemy just like daddy irenaeus did it 1800 years ago

notice me church-father senpai

>>15454254
why are discord trannies trying to recruit trannies in a /lit/ thread?

>>15453975
>If you were brought up in a different culture, you wouldn't even know about Christ.
Many gentile nations converted to Christianity while having nothing to do with the region of Palestine or its culture.
>How do you know?
Because it is completely historical, unique, consistent and makes perfect sense of the entirety of creation once you are willing to drop your prejudiced modern thinking and hyper-skepticism (which is self-refuting and leads nowhere). Regarding witnesses, every martyr is a witness of Christ's sacrifice, emulating his willingness to lay down his life for us. We still have them to this day (see pic related, he converted many Muslims to the truth and was killed for it right in his church). Only someone influenced by modernity would say that the early martyrs who claimed to have seen the resurrection were just lying and chose death for no reason and did not actually believe in it. I trust the apostles and their account over anyone in modernity telling me otherwise.
>plenty of self-proclaimed prophets existed during his time
And where are their fruits? Where is previous prophecy alluding to them? The only major false prophet who had an impact on the world was just larping his own distorted version of nestorianized Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.
>Mysticism should be guided by some degree of rational insight
We believe that too, but this rational insight should be guided by revelation and the practice of the saints, not by personal preference.

>>15453916
>You believe even deceit and heinous crime can be forgiven if one repents on his or her deathbed.
>Such views are disgusting to me.
>I am believer in a different theistic system.
Why are you the arbiter of who can and cannot repent? Are you the god of your own theistic system?

>>15454129
> "god" of old testament is not Jesus
this was debunked so many times its not even funny.

>>15454704
Debunked by who and when

>>15454794
By Christ, when he said "I will rebuild this temple in three days".

Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”
So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
(John 2:13-21)

>>15450736
>and the lack of clear division between the physical and mental/spiritual.
But that's literally monism dipshit.

>>15453052
>Christian Gnostic

>>15449579

>>15453013

What distinguishes the two?

>>15453067

How would you qualify the first statement?

>>15453053

Does it matter that it is not Scriptural?

>>15453006

Defending massacres by normalizing them. Exclusively Catholic.

Was anyone else amused by the fact that there wasn't an ounce of Christian love or well-being emanating from the smug catholic?

>>15457913
I would have been amused if I hadn't been watching it play out repeatedly for the past two months already, and they are eastern orthodox not catholic

>>15454698
>gentile nations
Are you a kike?
>Many gentile nations converted to Christianity while having nothing to do with the region of Palestine or its culture.
And many didn't. Moreover, just because they converted doesn't mean anything. If the whole world were x or y faith, it would have no bearing on its truth. The average human being is an idiot.
Regarding witnesses, every martyr is a witness of Christ's sacrifice, emulating his willingness to lay down his life for us.

My point is you still have faith in their accounts. You weren't there to witness it. Moreover, if you never heard of it, I sincerely doubt your own mystical experiences would lead you to one small Jew as the son of God. It's just due to cultural upbringing you pick Jesus as the end all and be all.
>I trust the apostles and their account over anyone in modernity telling me otherwise.
This is why I called you weak. You are incapable of trusting yourself. You have to place faith in other's accounts because you are unable to use your own rational or empirical insight.
>And where are their fruits?
This is just an appeal to majority. You might as well say the truest religion is the one that grows the most. It's stupid.
>Where is previous prophecy alluding to them?
You're just relying on confirmation bias. It's not hard. You can do it in other traditions involving prophecies too.
>The only major false prophet who had an impact on the world was just larping his own distorted version of nestorianized Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.
Both Muhammad and Jesus were retarded Semitic figures, but the former was much more violent.
>this rational insight should be guided by revelation and the practice of the saints, not by personal preference.
It's not rational insight then. Why does your revelation or saints have more uniqueness or divinity than others? It's just based on irrelevant Jew myths, which probably wouldn't have even grown if history proceeded differently. The problem with your tradition is it places faith before good deeds, places historical revelation before metaphysics, and worships the literal flesh of a disgusting Jew.
>Why are you the arbiter of who can and cannot repent? Are you the god of your own theistic system?
I'm a prophet in my system. My tradition is still a living one which was never truly decimated, but I have renovated certain aspects of it to make it better. I am far greater than Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad. You pick charlatans over me because you're stupid.

>>15454698
>gentile nations
Are you a kike?
>Many gentile nations converted to Christianity while having nothing to do with the region of Palestine or its culture.
And many didn't. Moreover, just because they converted doesn't mean anything. If the whole world were x or y faith, it would have no bearing on its truth. The average human being is an idiot.
>Regarding witnesses, every martyr is a witness of Christ's sacrifice, emulating his willingness to lay down his life for us.
My point is you still have faith in their accounts. You weren't there to witness it. Moreover, if you never heard of it, I sincerely doubt your own mystical experiences would lead you to one small Jew as the son of God. It's just due to cultural upbringing you pick Jesus as the end all and be all.
>I trust the apostles and their account over anyone in modernity telling me otherwise.
This is why I called you weak. You are incapable of trusting yourself. You have to place faith in other's accounts because you are unable to use your own rational or empirical insight.
>And where are their fruits?
This is just an appeal to majority. You might as well say the truest religion is the one that grows the most. It's stupid.
>Where is previous prophecy alluding to them?
You're just relying on confirmation bias. It's not hard. You can do it in other traditions involving prophecies too.
>The only major false prophet who had an impact on the world was just larping his own distorted version of nestorianized Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.
Both Muhammad and Jesus were retarded Semitic figures, but the former was much more violent.
>this rational insight should be guided by revelation and the practice of the saints, not by personal preference.
It's not rational insight then. Why does your revelation or saints have more uniqueness or divinity than others? It's just based on irrelevant Jew myths, which probably wouldn't have even grown if history proceeded differently. The problem with your tradition is it places faith before good deeds, places historical revelation before metaphysics, and worships the literal flesh of a disgusting Jew.
>Why are you the arbiter of who can and cannot repent? Are you the god of your own theistic system?
I'm a prophet in my system. My tradition is still a living one which was never truly decimated, but I have renovated certain aspects of it to make it better. I am far greater than Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad. You pick charlatans over me because you're stupid.

>>15457987
I know he repeatedly denied it but there's no way he isn't American then.
There's a particular kind of person who becomes catholic because they feel a rush from psychologically "borrowing" their perceived consolidated power of the church.
For deracinated Americans that goes doubly-so when they become orthodox.
They see it as the 2deep4u exotic version of catholicism.

>>15442912
Read Eric Viegelin’s analysis of it.