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/lit/ - Literature


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15383369 No.15383369 [Reply] [Original]

How does /lit/ interpret the story of Job?

>> No.15383408

However the Church Fathers do.

>> No.15383411

>>15383369
is he the one who got eaten by a big fish but survived or the one who sat outside a city waiting for God to destroy it?

>> No.15383430

>>15383369
Here's how I see it.

God is basically testing Job's friendship with Him. Up until when Job is tested, it was possible that Job was only friends with God because God has constantly blessed him. It's like when a person is very rich and naturally has a lot of friends. But what happens when you lose the money? Do you lose the friends also? So God temporarily removed the blessings to see if Job was a real friend who would stick around. He proves that he is by refusing to curse God.

Then there is the philosophical question that is being asked. "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Up until this point, it was common opinion that if you do good, you will be blessed, and if you do evil, you will be cursed. The natural logical consequence of this is that it must follow that if you are cursed, you must have done evil, and if you are blessed, you must have done good. In fact, this opinion persists even until the time of Jesus as in,

>John 9:1-2
>Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

Besides this, there remained the need to account for evil that happened when it was not apparent what the immediate cause was. Who should be held responsible in the case of an earthquake or a drought?

A third problem is that this idea of do good get rewarded, do evil get punished didn't seem to hold up in cases where people who did evil didn't get punished. There was not yet an idea of an afterlife, let alone Heaven, Hell and a Judgment. It also failed to account for God's grace by which those who deserved to be punished are not because of forgiveness. It makes it seem too much like you earn blessings rather than them being a gift from God. Ultimately, Christ would answer all of these questions.

The story of Job is perhaps best interpreted as a story of a man's unwavering faith and a display of godly patience, even in the face of suffering. In the end, God blessed Job even more than he had before because Job had been patient.

>Job 42:12
>So the LORD blessed Job’s latter days more than his first.

>James 5:11
>See how blessed we consider those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen the outcome from the Lord. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

>> No.15383433
File: 288 KB, 697x566, 410c6d2b6fbc8e2d3c1f7ecddd56da27373fa98c711cbe0495d91606c677b96f.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15383433

>>15383369
Man lives because God lets it, and every life will end when He demands it. We have no right (or even the preliminary understanding) to make value judgments about His decisions.

>"On what were its foundations set, or who laid its cornerstone, while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Pic related.

>> No.15383442

>>15383369
job jobbing a jobber

>> No.15383444

"This too shall pass."

>> No.15383447

You don't get rewarded in in life, except when you totally do bro.

>> No.15383460

>>15383411
Neither.

>> No.15383489

>>15383369
What a fucking waste of my time.
I read it twice and I'm still unemployed.

>> No.15383534

>>15383369
>Job
Yeah why don't you get a job lol

>> No.15383557

The thesis of the book of Job is that God is not moral and his power is its own justification for his actions. Might makes right theology

>> No.15383570
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15383570

>>15383489
>>15383534

>> No.15383573

God is an asshole

>> No.15383591

"I am beyond your pathetic morals of right and wrong ya narrowminded self righteous numbnut" God

>> No.15383593

>>15383369
God was wilding out, but at the end he still got his boy

>> No.15383608

Gods a cunt who destroyred Job’s life to show Satan that he would still be worshiped no mafter what he did.

Job was a cuck.

>> No.15383658

>>15383573
False.
God is a dj.

>> No.15383691

>>15383658
DJ Capital G.

>> No.15383852

>>15383369
God is a dick.

Satan too, but God even more.

>> No.15383871

>>15383369
you don't get to question God because you don't know shit

>> No.15383875

>>15383369
I'm not Jewish so I don't know the story nor do I care for it.

>> No.15384716

For one reason or another, we think God is obligated to bless us. Job thought God was obligated to bless him because of his good deeds. These days people don't even believe in God yet expect to be blessed by Him, and then they use their lack of blessing as proof God doesn't exist.

The fact of the matter is that we are like infants in God's eyes. Imagine if we all decided to not vaccinate our children because we didn't want to make them cry. When we get to heaven, we will look back at our time on Earth as an infancy, and it will make complete sense to us.

>> No.15384782
File: 174 KB, 480x625, job-papers.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15384782

>>15383369

>> No.15384786

>>15384716
Wrong.
One of the theories of Jobs friends is that all his suffering is for his own good ultimately. God himself says they sre wrong.
Source: book of Job

>> No.15384814

>>15383430
Good post. Gj

>> No.15384840

>>15383369
No matter how much of an asshole Jehovah was to him, he didn't break.


>I may note that in “Tasawwuf,” or Moslem Gnosticism, Pharaoh represents, like Prometheus and Job, the typical creature who upholds his own dignity and rights in presence and despite of the Creator. Sáhib the Súfí declares that the secret of man’s soul (i.e. its emanation) was first revealed when Pharaoh declared himself god; and Al-Ghazálí sees in his claim the most noble aspiration to the divine, innate in the human spirit. (Burton, Dabistan, vol. iii.).

>> No.15384999

>>15384786
I must not have explained it well enough. An infant doesn't rationally cognize good or bad like an adult but only raw pain and pleasure. Likewise we do not cognize God's understanding because the difference between us and God is even vaster than the difference between an infant and an adult. Make more sense?

>> No.15385035

what you should get from the story of job is the duality, god is not separate from even the worst evil imaginable. our concepts of good and evil need duality to exist, but God doesn't care

>> No.15385053
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15385053

Had to remake this one.

>> No.15385107

>>15383433
>pic related
>The divine boot on my neck puts me at peace.

>>15383573
This. It’s what passed for comedy back then.

>> No.15385356

>>15384999
The book of job rejects the notion lf a rational god in thr first place. The Persian zoroastrians who were in contact wkth the jews taught a dualistic cosmology where the benevolent rational god was in battle with the evil ignorant god. Job written in the persian period and refutes mutliple aspects of persian religion.
1 the satanic is part of the godhead too
2 God is the source of good and bad
3 God does not need a rational benevolent justification for his actions
Job is extremely redpilled. People dont recognize the polemic against Persian religion. Reject dualism and take the Jobpill.

>> No.15385356,1 [INTERNAL] 

>>15385356
Kys

>> No.15385665

god loves a cuck

>> No.15385681
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15385681

>>15383369
>job

>> No.15385697

>>15383369
atheists always have a hard time with this one. Trust and faith are the primary takeaways

>> No.15385700

>>15383433
lol, abrahamites are a laugh riot

>> No.15385714

>>15384999
>an omnipotent God can't make himself understood to his own creations

lol retard

>> No.15385719

>>15385107
The boot will either be divine or of the flesh, but a boot will always be there.

>> No.15385757
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15385757

>>15385719
You ensure it.

>> No.15385772

>>15385697
Sadism and Masochism, that’s the main takeaway

>> No.15385795

>>15383411
No, both of those are Jonah

>> No.15385813
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15385813

>>15385772
Fuck off, you're a shitty person

>> No.15385826

>>15384716

I like this explanation. Thanks anon

>> No.15385830

>>15385772
>>15385813
Yeesh you should honestly try not to advocate medicine. :3

God could help him in this instance...

>> No.15385831

>>15385714
Can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? You're using limited human reason to understand God.

>> No.15385842

>>15383430
thanks

>> No.15385853
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15385853

>>15385831
they don't understand the concept of transcendence. It's why they hate most non-classical art, poetry, most music, and generally avoid going outdoors.

>> No.15385868

>>15383369
God makes a bet with Satan and wins by destroy ing Job's life.
Job wants to know why he had to suffer. God is uncomfortable with telling him the true reason (the bet with Satan) so he yells at him about how he is all powerful and a mere mortal should not question God.

The moral of the story is
1. God is not good or just by human standards.
2. It's not true that bad things only happen to bad people, therefore it's ok to show sympathy to the unfortunate.

>> No.15385888

>>15385868
>It's not true that bad things only happen to bad people

Well yeah, that's the essential moral in most divine teachings.

Simply being 'successful' by how the world measures you is not an accurate indication of God's preference for you at all, especially as this success depends more and more on materialistic tendencies.

In other words God lets bad shit happen to people more divine than others all the time. It's Satan who wants to have a 'secret club' that cannot be entered.

God lets all enter and all leave, and if you leave it's because you are too stupid to see his wisdom.

>> No.15385896

>>15385888
I am :3, btw

>> No.15385904
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15385904

>>15383369
God is a schizo semitc desert demon

>> No.15386298

>>15383408
>>15383430
Based

>> No.15386575

>>15383369
Don't try to understand God; you can't.

>> No.15387102

>>15385813
>Epicurus is about Stoicism
You still haven’t fact checked this?
GO READ

>> No.15387614

>>15383430
Good quality. Thank you.

>> No.15387738

>>15387102
It was a shit video. No idea why you would suggest it to someone suicidal.

>> No.15387751

>>15383369
This story is essentially about coming to terms with natures aparent indifference and to not let it demoralise you. It teaches the virtue of patience. If you endure pain gracefully there wont be a reward like in this story (materialistic) but your grace itself will be your reward (spiritual).

>> No.15387975

>>15383369
Satan cannot bring financial and physical destruction upon us unless it is by God’s permission. God has power over what Satan can and cannot do. It is beyond our human ability to understand the "why’s" behind all the suffering in the world. The wicked will receive their just dues. We cannot always blame suffering and sin on our lifestyles. Suffering may sometimes be allowed in our lives to purify, test, teach, or strengthen the soul. God remains enough, and He deserves and requests our love and praise in all circumstances of life.

The book of Job opens with a scene in heaven where Satan comes to accuse Job before God. He insists Job only serves God because God protects him and seeks God’s permission to test Job’s faith and loyalty. God grants His permission, only within certain boundaries. Why do the righteous suffer? This is the question raised after Job loses his family, his wealth, and his health. Job’s three friends Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar, come to “comfort” him and to discuss his crushing series of tragedies. They insist his suffering is punishment for sin in his life. Job, though, remains devoted to God through all of this and contends that his life has not been one of sin. A fourth man, Elihu, tells Job he needs to humble himself and submit to God’s use of trials to purify his life. Finally, Job questions God Himself and learns valuable lessons about the sovereignty of God and his need to totally trust in the Lord. Job is then restored to health, happiness, and prosperity beyond his earlier state.

The Book of Job reminds us that there is a "cosmic conflict" going on behind the scenes that we usually know nothing about. Often we wonder why God allows something, and we question or doubt God’s goodness, without seeing the full picture. The Book of Job teaches us to trust God under all circumstances. We must trust God, not only WHEN we do not understand, but BECAUSE we do not understand. The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). If God’s ways are “perfect,” then we can trust that whatever He does—and whatever He allows—is also perfect. This may not seem possible to us, but our minds are not God’s mind. It is true that we can’t expect to understand His mind perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not.

>> No.15387986

As Job was pondering the cause of his misery, three questions came to his mind, all of which are answered only in our Lord Jesus Christ. These questions occur in chapter 14. First, in verse 4, Job asks, "Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!?" Job’s question comes from a heart that recognizes it cannot possibly please God or become justified in His sight. God is holy; we are not. Therefore, a great gulf exists between man and God, caused by sin. But the answer to Job’s anguished question is found in Jesus Christ. He has paid the penalty for our sin and has exchanged it for His righteousness, thereby making us acceptable in God’s sight (Hebrews 10:14; Colossians 1:21-23; 2 Corinthians 5:17).

Job’s second question, "But man dies and lies prostrate; Man expires, and where is he?" (vs. 10), is another question about eternity and life and death that is answered only in Christ. With Christ, the answer to ‘where is he?’ is eternal life in heaven. Without Christ, the answer is an eternity in “outer darkness” where there is “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 25:30).

Job’s third question, found in verse 14, is “If a man dies, will he live again?” Once again, the answer is found in Christ. We do indeed live again if we are in Him. “When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’ ‘Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?’” (1 Corinthians 15:54-55).

>> No.15388092

>lol u can’t know nuttin
if god is all powerful why couldn’t he have made it so that humans could understand what his purposes are? no need to treat humans like a bunch of rats in a cage to experiment with

>> No.15388256

>>15385107
>triprelated
>the dilated boot puts my wound at ease

>> No.15388277

>>15388092
If God is all-powerful why would He not be able to make us such that we do not understand His ways? Braindead "argument".

>> No.15388707

>>15383369
Do Humans care when they step on ants? So why should we expect to God to care?

>> No.15388716

>>15383557
Who are you to tell God what is moral and what isn't? You and Job don't understand anything about God so what right do you have to tell God what he is doing is wrong?

>> No.15388727

>>15384840
Wow I never thought Islam could be interesting

>> No.15388745 [DELETED] 
File: 334 KB, 941x941, 20200510_203008.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15388745

>>15385772
Woodland Hills California. Why you still delete your posts? Are you scared?

>> No.15388768 [DELETED] 

>>15388745
99.129.218.145
Country:United States
State/Region:California
City:Woodland
Hills
Latitude:34.1765(34° 10 35.40 N)
Longitude:-118.614(118° 36 50.40 W)
Postal Code:91367
IP Address 99.129.218.145
Country United States, Woodland Hills
Browser Safari (13.0.5)
Operating System Mac 10.15
Device Apple
User Agent Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/13.0.5 Safari/605.1.15
Host Name 99-129-218-145.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.netISPATT-INTERNET4

>> No.15388777 [DELETED] 

>>15388745
Why does butterfag cry about socialism when he already lives in one.

>> No.15388778 [DELETED] 

>>15388768
Hey jannie. How many times will you continue banning me? Is not going to work. I always came back. You are most likely a butterfly friend or even butterfly himself. Guess what? We got a lot of information and we plan to find butter IRL. You are not going to stop us.

>> No.15388790 [DELETED] 

>>15388777
IDK she is retarded. Also nice lucky trips. Take all of these information before janny tranny deletes it.

>> No.15388815

>>15387975
>>15387986
Coming from a Muslim, very decent post

>> No.15388818

>>15383369
>How does /lit/ interpret the story of Job?
It reminds me of masochism, abusive relationships and Stockholm syndrome. God gives just so he can take away. In the end we see Job in a new phase of having received and think his suffering has been redeemed, but isn't that indeed just a phase of a cycle? In reality he has become totally reliant and subservient on an entity that readily tortures him before healing the very wounds it created. It's kinky and monstrous, and of course what awaits Job and by extension humanity are more episodes of suffering subject to the whims of a being beyond power or reproach. One can only imagine what kind of bronze age pervert thought up the story of Job, they probably got a good laugh and a coom out of it.

>> No.15388891

>>15387975
Based.

>> No.15388947
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15388947

>>15383430
>God blessed Job even more than he had before because Job had been patient.
>dude sorry about that wife and those kids of yours I fucking killed. I'll make it up to you it's just a prank bro

>> No.15388949

>>15383430
Imagine if you dad regularly gave you gifts and spoiled you with affection, but then one day he shaved your head, killed the family dog, and cut off all your fingers to test if you would be a loyal child

>> No.15389107

>>15388949
>killed the family dog
literally what Steppenigger dads did to their sons and they became one of the most successful groups in history

>> No.15389124

>>15383369
>Why do bad things happen to good people? A fable for children who doubt God.

>> No.15389131

>>15389124
Fable implies it is a false story, friend. A fictitious tale, as it were.

In reality, Job happened.

>> No.15389426
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15389426

>>15389131
>In reality, Job happened.

>> No.15389428

>>15388815
>Coming from a Muslim
read the rest of the OT and any gospel of your choice and you'll deconvert yourself from the islamic fanfiction. Be careful though, you can never go back once you know the truth.

>> No.15389447

>>15383369
Justice for the rich looks quite harsh from their perspective.

>> No.15389466

god will assfuck you to win a bet and then you have to say "thanks god". thanks god

>> No.15389729

https://youtu.be/Z28Mi6mUyKo

>> No.15389940

>>15389428
Read the Qur'an and you'll stop associating His servant (Jesus) with Him. Deconvert yourself from blatant paganism. Be careful though, you can never go back once you know the truth.

>> No.15389992

>>15388947
yeah, Christian effortposting is getting cringier by the day

>> No.15390133

Faith defies reason.

>> No.15390168
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15390168

>>15383430
> he uses New Testaments theology to interpret the Old Testament

incredibly unbased and cringe

>> No.15390519

>>15388716
Absolutely none, which is why I have a hard time accepting it. With a divine creature, it'd only be logical to follow whatever it says. However, that's a big leap of faith to take on it's own.
>God controls everything
>Follow him
>If you don't know him, you'll be damned
>If you don't follow him, you'll be damned
>How to know him? A book of course
>There are 10s of religions like this
>Each it's own damnation, each it's own book
>Why pick mine specifically?
>Why mine's real, of course
>Source(s): dude trust me

>> No.15390627

>>15389940
>Read the Qur'an
Why? It's a cringe distorted interpretation of the Gospel and the Tanach literally conveyed by a demon who forced the poor Muhammad guy (a pagan) to read a text he didn't even want to read at first.

>the angel """"Gabriel"""" appeared before him in the year AD 610 and said, "Read", upon which he replied, "I am unable to read". Thereupon the angel caught hold of him and embraced him heavily. This happened two more times after which the angel commanded Muhammad to recite the following verses
Literally demonic possession. An angel would never torture a prophet in such a manner.

>> No.15391044

>>15383369
>>15383369
>Un-diagnosed schizo shepherds larping and ranting

>> No.15391174

I always felt it was worship no matter what, never try to understand god's will, it's a sinful pretention. If God tortures you it's for the better.

>> No.15391270

Read Shestov's "In jobs balances"

>> No.15391294

>>15388716
I am the übermensch.

>> No.15392303

>>15383430
Thanks for the nice post anon.

>> No.15392320

>>15390627
Your post is nonsense.

Allah is the one true god.

>> No.15393268

>>15385356
>Job is extremely redpilled. People dont recognize the polemic against Persian religion. Reject dualism and take the Jobpill.
Is there any good book or source which dwells into this kind of Bible development and its historical contrast ?

>> No.15393282

>>15383369
My diary desu

>> No.15393321

>>15390627
Yet a prophet of yours can have sex with his daughters and murder someone to cover up their adultery? Stop it, the only thing thats demonic is how your priests and monks rewrite the word of God.

And a demon made people feed the poor and denounce their idols to worship the God of Jesus? You should know that Jesus said that Satan would never contradict himself.

>> No.15393349

>>15383430
>In the end, God blessed Job even more than he had before because Job had been patient.

This is an abomination.

>> No.15393359

>>15387975

What distinguishes this from Atheism?

>> No.15393361

>>15383369
Enough of your jew trauma maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

>> No.15393389

Same as every Job thread:

>The story itself is ironic in that the principle of Job being innocent is completely absurd, and people taking it as dogma are themselves exemplary of Job's perverse "innocence". It is implied that God could have destroyed everyone and everything around him, and Job would have thought nothing of it. Worse still, that he only thought about it once he became afflicted, was utterly unrepentant in his ignorance, but still self-aggrandized in both refusing to admit fault and refusing to consider that, if he is indeed innocent, anyone and everyone that God likewise tormented could have been innocent as well, making him the disciple of a monster. So many mutually aggravating offenses that they indeed make lesser "Mosaic" sin redundant and Job formally innocent thereof. God's non-reply being not only perfectly adequate in mirroring Job's casual monstrosity, but quite merciful as well in letting Job carry on as usual.

>> No.15393423

Well it's the third book of wisdom, after proverbs and ecclesiastes, wherein the first assorts all the numerous rewards for living a virtous life and the second says that nothing matters (under the sun) not under the heaven.
In the book of Job the first two books come into confluence of ideas giving a run of the mill worldling a discontent vision of workings of god, It's a shortcut to rational thought as to why the bible teaching is false, at best.

Other wisdom literature at least explains as to why you suffer but the bible merely states that no matter what you don't matter.

>> No.15393478

>>15383430
i like it

>> No.15393485

>>15383489
kek

>> No.15393539

>>15385356
>God was real, and he hated us.
"The First Heretic" by (((Aaron Dembski-Bowden)))
https://youtu.be/7jcuYA714Jw?t=55

God is omnipotent (according to his own assurance), irrational, evil, and most likely insane.
The Devil is simply his deputy for evil affairs, something like the Vice-Redenter, who does the "dirty work" for the boss. Source: Book of Job.

Reject abrahamism and take the AhuraMazda/AŋraMainiiupill

>> No.15393564

>The Book of Job
>main character becomes unemployed a few pages in

>> No.15393636

His name was Ayyub

>> No.15393660

Ibn Kathir narrates the story in the following manner. Job was a very rich person with much land, and many animals and children — all of which were lost and soon he was struck with disease as a test from God. He remained steadfast and patient, so God eventually relieved him of the disease
In the Islamic version God only cured Job from disease.

>> No.15393865

>>15383369
There’s something of a Gnostic/Lovecraftian vibe in it. An almighty incomprehensible God making a deal with the Devil to let the Devil torture a good man, Job. When Job (rightly, it seems) complains about how unjust life is and how cruel God seems to be, God simply tells him to know his place and that he wasn’t there when God fashioned the universe. So God appears as terrifyingly and sublimely impersonal, having both a light side and a dark side. Of course, this is viewed as the heresy of Manichaeism by most modern Christians. His good side is merciful and loving, but his impersonal creative side is also terrifying and stern, allowing hurricanes, earthquakes, great wars and tragedies to happen.

There’s definitely something of proto-existentialism in it, too. The message basically being, “Yes, God is real, but life can still appear to be terrifying, random, chaotic, unfair and meaningless. It’s up to you how you want to respond to this void of apparent meaninglessness, although awe, worship, and humility is the best way according to God.”

>> No.15393964

>>15393660
No, in the Islamic version Job was given more than what he previously had.

Job also said to have removed maggots and worms from his skin and praised God for each maggot and worm. This is the actual state of the Prophets. Unlike biblical recordings of daughter fucking (Lot) idol worshipping (Solomon) and adultery/murder (David)

>> No.15393965

>>15384840
You have to be careful interpreting Sufi texts, writers, and thinkers, because they have often veiled their true meanings or deliberately played with seemingly blasphemous/heretical statements to make the reader think, sort of like a Zen koan. The “I am God” of the Pharoah, and al Ghazzali saying this represented the noble striving of the human soul, is a clear reference to the soul’s striving to be one with God. However, this can also easily be Satanic. A human saying “I alone am God” could either be setting up their false, lower self (the nafs, as Sufis call it in Arabic) as God, or they could be a Sufi saint like Mansur al Hallaj who is so absorbed in God he doesn’t even care if he is called blasphemous.

So when Ghazali says this is a noble aspiration to the divine, he was probably speaking with a double meaning. The narcissistic self-glorification of the nafs (the lower self, the egomaniacal Pharoah, Herod, Pharisees or whomever you will) contains in it the seed of striving for unity with God.

>> No.15393968

>>15393268
Biblical historical criticism has been going on for 150 years and continues. A lot of the study goes into the Torah and Gospels

>> No.15393998

This book is so insanely scrambled. Trying to read it in hebrew is halfway impossible. The verses are mixed up and lots of words only appear in Job and nowhere else so its hard to know what they mean. A bought a book called Job: A New Translation where the author goes through painstaking effort to recreate the text and translate it truthfully.
The last line Job takes pity on humanity against the cruelty of God. He never humbles himself or calls himself wrong

>> No.15394132

>>15383369
I agree with what Chesterton said in his essay about the Book of Job.

>> No.15394271

>>15383369
>"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?"

The moral of the story is that this book was written by people who believed that snow and hail were stored in vast drums and the reason that they rained from the sky was because a giant man poured them through the "floodgates of heaven". Think long and hard about that.

>> No.15394327

>>15389131
Blessed post

>> No.15394373

>>15394271
Atheists are so cringe and narrow minded it’s just pathetic

>> No.15394419

fucking christcucks and muzzies with their stockholm syndromes, no matter how many times YHWH presents himself as a complete asshole, they continue to suck his balls, truly the quintessential shabbos goyim

>> No.15394440

>>15394373
All I'm saying is that this book makes a lot more sense if you treat it as a collection of historical documents from ancient Judea, if you insist on treating it as a book of wisdom, you're just going to end up tying yourself into sailor's knots trying to make sense of it.

>> No.15394518

>>15394440
Job isnt historical dude its poetry
The historical part of the bible is samuel and kings

>> No.15394536

>>15383369
Basically just a test of faith, like the story of Abraham and Isaac.

>> No.15394547

>>15394518
I mean that it's "historical" in the sense that it reveals a lot about the beliefs of a now extinct civilisation (ancient Judea). Yaweh's behaviour makes a lot more sense when you consider the fact that Judea was never a very powerful country and frequently faced hardship, so the Judeans developed this idea that they are obligated to worship Yaweh, but Yaweh is not obligated to help his worshippers in order to explain their bad luck. It's very interesting from the perspective of anthropology, it's sort of an ancient Jewish answer to the problem of evil.

>> No.15394641

>>15394547
Everything you said is true but you are lacking a layer. The classical jewish answer to the problem of evil is that God punishes the wicked and rewards the loyal. This is the Deuteronomist school. Later texts like Job challenge the older ideas. Deuteronomy Job and jewish apocalypticism are all judean answers to the problem of evil and it developed with time

>> No.15394904

Bump for job

>> No.15394933

>>15383369
It's pretty sad to see a man reduced to so little, but God does make it right in the end.

>> No.15395012
File: 58 KB, 407x611, A94280C4-62A4-44D3-9B66-A7EA241D065E.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15395012

Guys where did /christianity/ go after 8can got owned

>> No.15395428
File: 70 KB, 1221x425, OT-NT.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15395428

>>15390168
They have the same author, anon.

>The Old Testament is unveiled in the New, the New veiled in the Old.

>> No.15395439

There's multiple interpretations of God's justice but the only valid one is the the one that stresses the futility of understanding a being infinitely more powerful than yourself.

>> No.15395475

>>15394419
= why, in a nutshell, Christians are the true "children of abraham."

>> No.15395505

>>15385757
How does anything that anon does ensure that God is Master of His universe?

>> No.15395542
File: 1.11 MB, 1280x720, 1508271198800.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15395542

>>15389428
>read the books that Islam agrees with and you'll deconvert

>> No.15395562

>>15390627
>Jacob wrestles with God and puts him in a headlock until he agrees to bless Jacob and the Isrealites
Definitely demonic possession, a human could never force God to do anything.
Unless... it's not semantically literal.

>> No.15395573

>>15393539
>praise angry manju
Nah

>> No.15395782
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15395782

>>15395505
There is no master of the universe, dear boy.

>> No.15396640

>>15395542
>Islam agrees with

It doesn't. It can't even explain a single book of the OT coherently. What is the Islamic exegesis on this verse from Psalm 110?

"A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The Lord shall send out a rod of power for thee out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning.
The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec.
The Lord at thy right hand has dashed in pieces kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the nations, he shall fill up the number of corpses, he shall crush the heads of many on the earth.
He shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore shall he lift up the head."

>The Lord sware, and will not repent, ****Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec.****
>I have *****begotten thee ***** from the womb *****before the morning*****

>> No.15396651

>>15395562
>God is too weak to manifest in reality, wrestle with a human and then bless him out of his own divine will
lol.

>> No.15397272

>>15393359
>no replies

Pathetic.

>> No.15397284

>>15397272
>Everyone thought it was too stupid to reply to

Pathetic.

>> No.15397286

>>15396640
Careful, you're dealing with the word of God.

As a white Muslim, I'll have you know going through Ramadan isn't easy :3

>> No.15397289

>>15383369
retarded boomer gets hilariously BTFO by a couple of CHADS

>> No.15397300

>>15397284
>dude MYDUDE everyone has sometihng to say but liek noone sayz it LOOOOOOOOOLZZZZZZZZZZ XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!111eleventeen

>> No.15397305

>>15397300
Dude, my dude! You are retarded.

>> No.15397308

>>15397305

Put up or shut up. Answer my question or fuck off.

>> No.15397319

>>15383430

Let me get this straight.
If on the end of this little fairy tale Job was not rewarded plentifully, but instead just died with nothing and didn't go to heaven, just because god is still testing him, would you people still be this excited to follow his steps?

>> No.15397388

>>15385831
>>15385853
>HURR DON'T USE HUMAN CONCEPTS TO TALK ABOUT GOD
>Also please read this book written in human language using human words and concepts about god and be convinced by my human argument constructed with human logic about god.

>> No.15397764

>>15395012
they are still there. check 8 kun dot top

>> No.15397783

>>15383369
job was a jobber lol

>> No.15397801

>>15383369
Start with the Talmudic interpretations.

>> No.15397813

>>15395012
every story has a moral and the greatest moral you can find is in suffering The greatest decicion you can take is to wonder why you suffer.You can gain widsom from suffering, widsom that an average happy on autopilot,living his life on toturial difficulty normie won't grasp.Asking yourself questions like: Have I truly been good person? Have I made right choices? Was I a virutuous man? can lead to personal catharsis and personality changes.Was dich nicht umbringt, macht dich stärker.

>> No.15398817

>>15383369
God is easily manipulated to do Satan's bidding.

>> No.15399797

The book of Job questions God's justice. Will upright and blameless Job continue to serve God if he loses everything, or will he stay faithful?

Job accuses God of acting unjustly while his friends blame him for wrongdoing. They all believe God operates the universe according to rules of justice.

Job reviews his good works and questions why God would allow him to suffer, but he sees his pain through the lens of his limited view.

God responds to Job personally with a virtual tour of the world. He reminds Job that His worldview is infinite while Job's view is limited.

God doesn't explain our suffering, but He reminds Job that we live in a complex world and asks us to trust His character and wisdom.

Throughout the book, Job, his wife, and his friends speculate on why he, an upright man, suffers. Job accuses God of being unjust and not operating the world according to principles of justice, and his friends believe that Job's sin caused his suffering. Job decides to talk directly to God.

God reminds him that the world has order and beauty but is also wild and dangerous. While we do not always know why we suffer, we can bring our pain and grief to God and trust that He is wise and knows what He's doing.

>> No.15399838

>>15399797

What distinguishes this from Atheism?

>> No.15399944

>>15399797
>>15399838

More specifically, what makes this description of God different from a mere personification of the cretinous amoral Cosmos proposed by Atheism?

>> No.15399959

>>15399944
Because he is an interactive force who can show us the correct path to take, which cares not for short-term pains or losses, but the long-term gains and glories. :3

>> No.15399969

The book of Job is not answering a theoretical question about why good people suffer. It is answering a practical question: When good people suffer, what does God want from them? The answer is, he wants our trust.

The book is driven by tensions. One, Job really was a good man (1:1, 8; 2:3). He didn’t deserve what he got. Two, neither Job nor his friends ever saw the conflict going on between God and Satan, but his friends made the mistake of thinking they were competent to judge. Three, his friends interpreted his sufferings in moralistic, overly-tidy, accusing categories (4:7-8). Thus, they did not serve Job but only intensified his sufferings further. Four, Job refused to give in either to his own despair or to their cruel insinuations. He kept looking to God, he held on, and God eventually showed up (38:1-42:17).

Even personal suffering has a social dimension, as others look on and inevitably form opinions. Suffering brings temptation both to the sufferer and to the observer. The sufferer is tempted to give up on God. The observer is tempted to point his finger at the sufferer with smug, self-serving thoughts and words: “This is all your own fault, of course. If you’d just own up, everything would start getting better.” The fallacy here is to assume that we live in a universe ruled by the simple laws of crime and punishment. Our minds dredge up these thoughts not really because we are confident in ourselves but because we are uneasy about ourselves and therefore threatened by the suffering of another: “If it’s happening to Job, it might catch up to me too.” So we cling to the illusory feeling of control by reinforcing our own self-image of moral superiority. We try, by sheer force of assertion, to re-order the moral universe in a way reassuring to our prejudices. The book of Job teaches a more honest and humble way. When we observe someone suffering, we too should trust God and sympathize with the sufferer rather than off-load our own guilty anxieties by dumping on the sufferer.

When we ourselves suffer in ways that defy easy explanation, God wants us to trust him more deeply than we ever have before. Job eventually settles into a profound place where, without answers to his questions, he trusts in the omnicompetence of God: “I know that you can do all things” (42:2). What God can do is more important than how God explains himself. What if he did tell us every mystery right now? Would we be satisfied? Would we say, “Oh, I see. Here I have your explanation for it all. That really makes everything okay now”? I doubt it. An explanation is a wonderful thing, so far as it goes. But it is an intellectual thing. It cannot touch our core being, where the anguish in fact has taken up its deepest residence. Far better to leave it all with God, as our faith deepens from questioning to waiting. We don’t live by explanations; we live by faith.

>> No.15399972

an outdated cope to inspire cringe larpers like the rest of scripture in 2020 when everybody is a social media addicted modernbrain

>> No.15400017

>>15399838
Nothing. Abrahamist religion has been in retreat for a long time now, there was nothing "allegorical" or "metaphorical" about early Christianity/Judaism/Islam, they literally believed that God was standing on top of the firmament, watching human affairs, controlling the weather, making sinners ill and making saints healthy but as that's become increasingly unlikely, they've been forced to scale back their claims more and more to the point where their religion barely means anything. All of the mainstream branches of Abrahamism have abandoned the original conception of God as a physical being with a face, a throne, a sword, etc, and now they treat him as a vague kind of energy field that exists outside the universe, because that's the only way to keep the story plausible. They've also abandoned the idea of the Bible as a factual, perfect, creation of God and have conceded that it's just a book of fables written by men, because it's absurd to say otherwise. The result, as you have said, is just atheism with some extra steps. After all, if God rarely intervenes in human affairs, why bother worshipping him? If the Bible is a flawed collection of moral fables written by men, what elevates it above "Aesop's Fables" or "Gulliver's Travels"? It's not possible to truly believe in Yaweh in the modern world, the best you can do is to convince yourself that he exists, but he does nothing, says nothing, and isn't responsible for any of the things that are attributed to him.

>> No.15400030

>>15399959

This is a LITERAL description of Darwinism.

>> No.15400039

>>15383369
Satan is a dick, God is more important than all and deserves respect. Ultimately everything will be okay

>> No.15400193

>>15399969

Would it not follow that Job is not innocent precisely because he is obstinate in trusting a God that torments him despite his innocence? His innocence thus far being mere obedience, now exposed as indistinguishable from beastly fear of beastly might, tremendously degrading to both God and Man?

See: >>15393389

>> No.15400216

>>15400030
The gratification of sexual desire, which the Lord halts, the Darwinist extols as 'sexual selection'.

I have no idea how you could possibly be saying 'evolution' espouses the ideas in Job. Please explain this ridiculous theory.

>> No.15400230

Many suggestions have been made as to the purpose of the book. However, the overriding intention seems to be to demonstrate to man the inadequacy of human reason to account for the suffering of the innocent. There is a mystery of divine freedom which does not contradict God’s goodness or sovereignty but remains elusive to man. Therefore, man is resigned to an attitude of trust and dependence on a good God whose workings man cannot fathom.

>> No.15400268

God isn't just, at least not in the conventional sense. He dosn't need to "test" us either. To think that we get what we deserve from God is hilariously juvenile to me. If we did we'd be punished and tortured endlessly

>> No.15400269

>>15400216

"Natural selection", whatever that means, is an interactive force that can show us the correct path to take, which cares not for short-term pains of losses, but for the long-term gains and glories. It's funny that you mentioned sexual desire since it is likewise annulled in Darwinism, pure reproduction of otherwise unfeeling, in the sense of desiring, machinery etc.

>> No.15400288

>>15400269
Obviously you've never read The Origin of Species, sexual selection is mentioned as a determining mechanism for whatever species survives.

What a fucking retard you are, you have no argument after all.

>> No.15400298

>>15400288
Th-thanks God believer, I sure do like how humble you are

>> No.15400304

>>15400298
I am a Muslim, I am not humble towards the infidels.

>> No.15400315

>>15400288

My point being that sexual gratification is irrelevant in Darwinism, as it is in your "Christianity". Life forms being no more gratified by sex than by defecating, as per having little no Subjectivity per se, being almost pure input-output machines.

>> No.15400357

>>15400315
Sexual gratification is irrelevant but having sex is not? How do you separate one from the other in your twisted, demented infidel brain?

Apparently you SHOULD have sex, but you DONT NEED to enjoy it? Duh, anyone could tell you that.

I'm saying the religious frequently make the argument that you SHOULD NOT have sex, and in general, that is more acceptable than Darwinism.

>> No.15400383

>>15383369
The fear of the Lord, awe and reverence before God, is the beginning of wisdom. And when we are befuddled and confused by things that we cannot understand in this world, we look not for specific answers always to specific questions, but we look to know God in His holiness, in His righteousness, in His justice, and in His mercy. Therein is the wisdom that is found in the book of Job.

>> No.15400411

>>15400357

You ARE kind of conceding that the two converge in this point, no? I am not the one separating them, you are, as you yourself say.

>> No.15400423

>>15397764
Awesome thanks

>> No.15400489

>>15383430
I don't think this post is right at all.

There was conception of the afterlife even early on. There is levitical law about consulting dead spirits (don't) and a bunch of Psalms talked about it too. There seems to have been a consistent understanding that the soul is somehow eternal in contrast to the body, Even from very early on.

Also the very last part where you say God blessed Job because he was loyal is just plain wrong and goes contrary to everything that the entire book is about

>> No.15400537

>>15400411
Right, so your original point is refuted, in some capacity Darwinism does indeed support sexual activity, and lust is a sin.

>> No.15400583

>>15387986
>>15387975
To my degree of understanding these posts are much closer to accurate than the earlier one which does not withstand any scrutiny.

>> No.15400624

>>15400489
There was an afterlife, it was called 'Sheol' and by all accounts it was not a very nice place, it wasn't a punishment though, it was just the natural end point of all human life; Ancient Near Eastern religions were quite pessimistic (compare descriptions of Sheol to the description of the afterlife given in "The Epic of Gilgamesh", they're quite similar) the idea of a "good afterlife" and the idea of posthumous judgement comes from the Diaspora Jews who lived in Egypt and picked up the idea from Egyptian beliefs about Aaru. In The New Testament, Jesus talks about good people going to The Kingdom of God and bad people going to a kind of cosmic waiting room called "Gehenna"; according to Jesus, at the end of the world the people in Gehenna will be thrown into a lake of fire and will cease to exist in any form, which is very similar to Egyptian ideas. The concept of 'Hell' as a final destination for lost souls came about centuries later and was adapted from Norse Paganism, albeit, in the Norse religion Hell was ice cold and was not a place of eternal punishment per se, but more of a disgraceful retirement home for men who had failed to die a heroic death, the idea of eternal punishment was convinced entirely by the church in years hence.

>> No.15400659

>>15393359
in principle it is distinguished from atheism because it supposes that God exists.

In practice one with that belief will only be distinguished from a lay atheist if they also 'love God and follow his commandments' (though I don't claim to understand what that means)

>> No.15400677

>>15400537

Activity yes, "desire" or "lust" no. Both Darwin and your Theology only consider sex inasmuch as they subordinate "qualia" to an alleged necessity to reproduce. In fact, I can think of no other ideas/individuals that consider it as such.

>> No.15400684

>>15400624
Come now, you're being ridiculous. The idea of Hell originated in many different cultures and religions.

Punishment for ones actions is in the Dhammapada and Gorgias, where it is stated one's soul is punished in Tartarus.

>> No.15400698

>>15400677
Religion does not consider it necessary to reproduce, retard. That's why there are 'nun's and people who are celibate. They are protecting themselves from the sins of lust.

JFC, Darwinists really have to be retarded to believe in this shit, huh? No where, not once is it mentioned in the Holy Bible that reproduction is absolutely necessary, EVERYWHERE in The Origin of Species is 'sexual selection', as a developed term, mentioned.

>> No.15400755

People that seethe over Job are those who will never be happy in life.
They cannot accept that reality does not accord to their will, that bad things can happen at any time, that living righteously does not guarantee safety.
The world is beyond us, we are subject to it, not it to us. The current pandemic exemplifies this well.
Recognize that all good in your life is a blessing, and be gracious for it. It will not last forever.

>> No.15400768

>>15400755
They are atheists, who think that believing in God necessitates absolute pleasure, ie this earthly world would become heaven, or should be heaven for them even if they don't believe in God.

They are like the whiny Jewish population being led by God in the desert whom God yelled at for being cavilers (and even killed some of them for doing this).

This is ridiculous, unbelieving behavior. It's so sad how far society has fallen.

>> No.15400806

>>15400698

Nowhere in The Origin of Species is sex described as anything but means to reproduction, indistinguishable from any other function of the body. Not only lust but sex in and of itself being otherwise null to both parties. Moreover, you deny that reproduction for its own sake, and, as you say rebuke of "lust", is likewise a tenet of Abrahamic tradition?

>> No.15400824

>>15400755
>>15400768
Blessed posts, Job himself even remarks on this at the end of chapter 1.
>Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
God does not exist for our benefit, we have been gifted by Him, and all things both seemingly good and seemingly bad which come upon us are through his divine will.
We cannot argue against the wind, rain, or stars, and especially not the creator of all.

>> No.15400842

>>15400824
*gifted life by Him

>> No.15400845

>>15400755
>>15400768
>>15400824

See: >>15399944

>> No.15400858

>>15400684
You're quite correct, many religions have concepts of posthumous judgement and both "good end" and a "bad end"; but the issue is determining how Jewish people came into contact witch those ideas, the people of Judea seem to have lead quite an insular existence, the Jewish legends about foreign countries tend to be riddled with geographical and political errors and the further from the known region of Judea the story strays, the more errors there are (consider, for example the stories about "The Land of the Giants"). Many Jewish refugees, however, did escape to Egypt during the Second Temple Period which eventually fell to Alexander the Great, it is during this time that the scriptures stray further and further away from typical Near-Eastern ideas about religion and more towards Greek/Egyptian ideas, which seems to indicate that the Diaspora were being influenced by their surroundings. If Jesus existed his knowledge of Judaic tradition was probably more influenced by Hellenic Judaism, then original sources, this is most probably why there is such a discontinuity between what Jesus preaches and what the Old Testament teaches.

>> No.15400882

>>15400858
>but the issue is determining how Jewish people came into contact witch those ideas
oh oohhh I know how.

Perhaps it was because God freed them from slavery, afflicted the Pharaoh with various diseases and plagues, and showed them the light and led them to their holy land?

Maybe that's how they came to know of this. Hmmmm.

Fuckin atheshits...

>> No.15400888

>>15400845
see
>>15399959

Answered immediately, correctly, and also absolutely ass ravaged in the following debate.

>> No.15400916

>>15400882
But the story of Exodus hinges on the idea that the Egyptian gods are either not real or not as powerful as Yaweh, assuming the Exodus is real, why would the people of Israel adopt foreign ideas about religion? Yaweh repeatedly warns them against such things.

>> No.15400919

>>15385772
Ehhh, kind of... i mean we are talking about the bible so literally every story is about that, but more specifically it is about a power dynamic between man and god. In fact it is one if the quintessential man vs god stories. Obviously it is played completely straight, but still has some interesting conversations on the role of god in the lives of those who are suffering.

>> No.15401093

>>15400916
Because they were lost. I mean, Yahweh let their people be brutally enslaved by the egyptians as well.

Just ties in to God's mentality as regards hardship: he doesn't prevent it, he just utilizes it to create a beneficial effect after.

>> No.15401097

>>15401093
Ties into this thread as well: about Job.

>> No.15401098

>>15400916
God warns the Jews about a lot of things, and if you hadn't noticed, a lot of them don't do a great job listening
The OT is filled with narratives where the Jews fall astray from righteousness and must be punished or set on the right path once again

>> No.15401188

>>15400888

Quite curious what the answer will be, I do believe he put himself in a fork here: >>15400806

>> No.15401198

>>15401093
>>15401098
That's what I was trying to get across, God always corrects his followers for any mistake, no matter how minor. Yet there's no part of the Bible where he condemns Hellenic Judaism, so assuming the Exodus actually happened, (which is a big "if" because all branches of mainstream Christianity have abandoned the idea that the Bible is historically accurate) Hellenic Judaism was not the result of the Exodus, it was the intellectual fruit of the Jewish communities living in Egypt during the Second Temple Period.

>> No.15401210

>>15401198
>it was the intellectual fruit of the Jewish communities living in Egypt during the Second Temple Period.
It was their religion the moment one of their prophets saw the face of God and received the ten commandments.

>> No.15401248

>>15401210
I'm not speaking of Judaism in general, I'm talking specifically about the idea that dead people are judged by divine forces and are then sentenced to either a divine paradise or a divine prison, that particular aspect came from foreign religions, which is why it's never mentioned in any of the Old Testament. I think Orthodox Jews still hold to the position that there is no good afterlife, but I'm not certain enough to commit myself to it.

>> No.15401289
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15401289

>>15383369
Everyone always views it as an allegory, and how Job had this happen and God did this to Job.

God wipes out a family of people to test one man. The lives of those persons mattered not one bit beyond how it would affect Job. Did they not have dreams and plans and hopes for their lives? Sins to commit or repent? The book of Job is a story of the arbitrary cruelty and callousness of YHWH, while Job himself is the Macguffin.

>> No.15401312

>>15401289
God does not kill anyone unless they deserved it.

Even if they did not deserve it, if they did well on this Earth, they will be in eternal happiness after they die. So what is death anyway except the bridge to eternal happiness?

Your portrayal of death as being something 'cruel' only hinges on the fact that there isn't anything after you die.

>> No.15401331

>>15401248
It's because Sheol was spoken of as well. They knew of hell and divine punishment just as every other major religion did.

The religions are not so different, and the similarities are striking, even despite being disparate areas of the globe. This is another way I know God is real.

>> No.15401376
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15401376

>>15401312
So although Jon was perfectly righteous his entire family was wretched and sinful? Then he has failed his family and is not perfectly righteous.

There is no heaven only eternal life for those who believe in Jesus. Which of course none of Job's family knew.

>> No.15401377

>>15401289

Indeed. See:

>>15393389
>>15400193

Peanut brain: Job's innocence.

Small brain: thinsg juts happn dudez LOL

Medium brain: God's proactive monstrosity.

Big brain: God's and Job's mutual monstrous reactivity.

Galaxy brain: Job's proactive monstrosity.

>> No.15401379

>>15401331
Are there any passages is the Old Testament which speak of Hell? I'm not trying to be a neck-beard here, I'm just interested in Jewish history and it was always my understanding that until the Diaspora, Jews thought of Sheol as the final and only destination for all souls.

>> No.15401569

>>15383369
life sucks
-> <-
thug life

>> No.15401909

>>15400017
I think atheism is like believing that humans are the only life in the entire universe because we can't prove otherwise. Or the belief that the deep ocean was completely devoid of life that people held until the 1850s.
Our understanding of the universe outside of the human experience is extremely limited. Pointing to the flaws in established religion and using it as an excuse to not believe in anything is short sighted.

>> No.15401986

>>15401909
But why elevate this particular book to the level of truth? Why not the Greek myths? Why not Buddhism? Why not Nordic mythology? The Bible was sold to humanity as a book of perfect truth channelled by a god through human prophets and yet whenever the bible speaks about something it's authors would have been familiar with: (desert warfare, the politics of Judea, the genealogies of prominent Jewish individuals) it's right. Whenever it tries to speak on matters outside of an ancient Rabbi's capabilities (Astronomy, Geology, Biology) it's wrong. The obvious evidence suggests that this book was written by human hands and therefore contains no knowledge of things beyond humanity.

>> No.15402175

>>15401986
>matters outside of an ancient Rabbi's capabilities (Astronomy, Geology, Biology) it's wrong
examples? i recall, just for example, that job contained references to spherical planets and stars, and that levitical law would have helped stop the spread of parasites. pretty impressive stuff for the time id say. this portrayal of a sword wielding God personally writing the Bible isn't actually very biblical if you read the thing cover to cover.

>> No.15402213

We haven't the capacity nor the right to understand the course of the world

>> No.15402281

>>15402175
Just off the top of my head:

.The journey from Egypt to Israel on foot should have taken at most months, not 40 years, the authors, having never made the journey, overestimated the distance.

. The bible's author's place a "Land of the Giants" somewhere in the Middle East, presumably they didn't have the whole area mapped out and like the Medieval scholars they just filled in blank spaces with monsters.

.Repeated references are made in the bible to a "firmament" which covers the (flat) Earth like a cake cover, such descriptions match up with Babylonian cosmology, but not with reality.

. Repeated references are made to the "Floodgates of Heaven" which are doors built into the firmament, though which, god pours rain and snow onto the Earth, again Babylonian cosmology.

. The heart is commonly described as the place from which a person's thoughts originate, this is typical of the Middle Eastern religions, but incongruous with modern biology.

.Snakes are described as "eating dust", which is obviously not true.

Sorry about the Reddit spacing, but I wanted it to look readable. This could all be dismissed as "metaphor" and "allegory" but once that game starts, it won't end until we've taken the whole thing apart and pretty much ignore everything it says.

>> No.15402308

The epitome of christcuckery. Job doesn't dare to react to his enemy's threats and instead waits for YAWEH to do the job he should've done by himself like a good subservient goy dog who waits to be rewarded by an asshole of an owner who doesn't give a shit about his well-being.

>> No.15402409

>>15402281
.The journey from Egypt to Israel on foot should have taken at most months, not 40 years
God intentionally strands them for most of that time.

>Repeated references are made in the bible to a "firmament"
doesn't firmament just mean sky or heaven? the sky covers the earth. i think you have to stretch this to get to flat earth, especially considering the spherical references in Job.

>Repeated references are made to the "Floodgates of Heaven"
i don't see the issue with this being language to describe rain. and i don't see what the issue is either of archaic understanding of condensation, even if this weren't poetic (which you seem to preemptively dismiss). i think your argument must rest on the bible being straight from God, and anything that would date some of the technical knowledge is kind of a "gotcha!". isn't it possible language hadn't developed to allow for anything but a poetic rendering of the idea of rain? this doesn't seem like anything definitive to me.

>The heart is commonly described as the place from which a person's thoughts originate
Do you mean, for instance, "the heart is deceitful above all things?". don't we still use the idea of the heart to mean the root of our desires and longings? no one sat down in the bible and wrote out "as an expert on biology, the heart sends electrical impulses etc"

>Snakes are described as "eating dust", which is obviously not true.
im being baited. things can be poetic in nature, even in the bible. you seem to think it must be a literal technical manual written by the divine being himself or can't hold any literal truth whatsoever.

>> No.15402485

>>15402409
I assure you, there's no bait here. As I said, you could dismiss everything as poetic language, but personally, I think the bible is infinitely more epic and beautiful when I just take it as face value, as the ancient Jews would have done, that is after all, what I do with other religions. I mean, the Solar barge could be an allegorical description of an orbiting star-ship but it's more powerful to just to interpret the words literally.

>> No.15403081
File: 53 KB, 457x422, 1589561477703.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15403081

>>15401377
That's an interesting analysis in >>15393389
Hardly anyone ever seems to care the story would be terrifying if true.

>> No.15403083

Job’s plight of undeserved suffering compels us to ask the age-old question, “Why do bad things happen to good people?” The answer given to Job may or may not satisfy the reader. God allows pain for good reason, but He may never reveal those reasons.

Job did not reject God, but Job did challenge and accuse Him. The Almighty quieted Job decisively when He finally thundered His own perspective on the situation. God did not answer Job’s question of “Why?”—He instead overwhelmed Job and his friends with the truth of His majesty and sovereignty. Job came away with a deeper sense of God’s power and splendor, trusting Him more:

“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:5–6)

Pain inevitably afflicts each one of us. Suffering is unavoidable in this life. Will your relationship with God be enough when trials come? Will you trust Him through your suffering? Read Job 38–42. Spend time with the Almighty. Pray for a stronger faith in the powerful Creator described in those chapters. Pray for a right perspective of Him so that you might see your situation through His eyes.

Instead of asking where God is in the midst of your pain, the book of Job affirms God’s control and asks us, “Where are we in our pain? Are we trusting our Creator, even though we cannot understand our circumstances?”

>> No.15403273

The book of Job is not relevant in every circumstance, but Job-like experiences are all too common. This book teaches us that this kind of suffering is not a sign of God’s anger, or even a way to improve our moral quality as Christians. It is an avenue through which God reveals himself to us more profoundly than he ever could have in our safety and comfort. Job-like suffering becomes a context to love, honor and remain faithful to God for God’s sake, irrespective of any secondary blessings he might give, as we accept his present administration of ruling over a still-dangerous creation. The book of Job narrates how these times of suffering are temporary (42:10–12) and terminate in a new vision of God as God. In so doing, this difficult and challenging book speaks in clear and strengthening ways to Christians suffering and trying to remain faithful in their agony.

Finally, the ways in which the book of Job portrays and interprets suffering in God’s economy anticipate and pre-figure the Lord Jesus. If Job was blameless and upright in his relationship with God (1:1), Jesus was even more so. If Job innocently suffered the wrath of God in order to further God’s purposes, defeat the schemes of the Accuser, and prove the all-surpassing worth of knowing God, Jesus did even more so. If Job shows us imperfect but genuine trust in God in inexplicable suffering, Jesus shows us the same theme perfectly in his prayer in garden. And if Job ends with a vision of a universe cleansed of all evil, we see in Jesus how God actually brings Job’s hope about. As Ash writes, “It is not until the New Testament that we learn what it cost God to win this victory over the Leviathan.” In sum, the book of Job shows us, in outline form, a greater Job, who suffered even more deeply than that OT saint, in whom God’s purposes were furthered even more deeply, who holds our hand as his leads us, in some measure, through his own pain.

>> No.15403283

>>15401986
I don't think that the bible is divine and actually prefer buddhism, but if I was an ardent christian I would argue that all creative influence comes from god and human flaws create the inconsistancy and divergence between religions. I think that all religion have a kernel of truth and share the same ideas.
Most religious texts are recorded telephone game style and then translated several times without preserving any of the subtle allusion and metaphor of the original. It's easy to poke holes in that but atheism just refuses to approach the questions religions are actually trying to answer. It gives a scientific answer to unanswerable philosophical questions and I'm not satisfied by that.

>> No.15403328

>>15400017
Also, ancient theists were as intelligent as we were, just not as well educated. I don't think that all the metaphor and hypothetical parables in the bible were completely lost on them.

>> No.15403345

God is not subject to your relativist morality or your judgement. He is our divine creator. God and the universe He has created will continue to exist without your understanding, without your consent, and without your existence. In spite of your existence, even.

You can struggle against this truth in vain. You can attempt to explain what you do not understand like Job's neighbors. Or you can take solace in the fact that God has recused you of the self-perceived responsibility of mastering reality. You only need to follow His word. Don't worry yourself with the "why's" of this world.

The constant "why's" are more prevalent in a society increasingly pervaded by Scientism. All of the experts have pages and pages of "how's". It's perfectly fine to observe and record and explain phenomena which, as already stated, have existed and will continue to exist in spite of you. It's quite another to assume it would ever give any insight as to "why". Man continues to remain befuddled and it angers him so he lashes out at God.

>> No.15403361

>>15403283
I'm not exactly advocating Atheism, but the endless reinterpretation of the Bible, in particular annoys me, it's a fantastic story and trying to modify it so that it can't be falsified just kills all the wonder in it as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps, in an alternate timeline Nordic Mythology caught on instead of Abrahamism and there are armies of intellectuals arguing that Thor's hammer was "just a metaphor" and Valhalla "Isn't a place, it's a state of mind" and, sure enough, the alternate timeline version of me is desperately trying to get people to see that the ancient Scandinavians actually believed in this stuff and they're ruining it by trying to turn it into some kind of surrealist poem.

>> No.15403374

>>15403083
>>15403273
Thank you Orthodox bros

>> No.15403386

>>15403345
and what better way to follow His word, than to experience reality for yourself and to know God by yourself and for yourself, not merely a "belief"

>> No.15403788

The Book of Job does not present concrete solutions about why innocent people suffer. As far as the symposium is concerned, the author's purpose seems to be none other than to challenge the view presented by both prophets and historians to the effect that suffering is in itself evidence of wrongdoing. For centuries, it was accepted as true that because Yahweh is a just ruler of the universe, the distribution of rewards and punishments must be in strict accordance with what people actually deserve. The author of the symposium is convinced that this line of reasoning is not true. In order to make his position clear, he constructs the story of a righteous man named Job. As an introduction to his theme, the author makes use of a popular folktale in which a good man suffers in order to prove to Satan that he does not serve Yahweh for selfish reasons. That the author of the symposium did not accept this solution to the problem is shown very clearly in the arguments between Job and the three friends. Job's final speech in his own defense is probably where the book originally ended.

The skeptical character of the symposium, with its challenge to time-honored views, most likely would have kept the Book of Job out of the canon of Old Testament writings had some additions not been made to the original book. The speeches of Elihu appear to be added for the purpose of giving to the book an interpretation more in accord with the older views of the prophets. Quite possibly the same is true of the nature poems, which are presented as words spoken by Yahweh. Although neither the speeches of Elihu nor the nature poems gives any direct answer to the question of why innocent persons suffer, their presence in the book as a whole suggests that there may be a reason for such suffering that human beings are unable to grasp. The epilogue is, of course, a kind of anticlimax in that it tends to support the charges made by Satan in the prologue. However, it also presents an ending to the book quite in keeping with the older and more orthodox position concerning suffering.

>> No.15404278

>>15402485
i do take it at face value, and believe every word in it. i just happen to think that, since i can look outside at the rain right now and see that it's coming from clouds, that probably not even the writers really literally believed that God is shaking a tub of water from the sky. rather that he created all things and is responsible for these natural occurrences. im a literalist, but i think you have to bend the arm of the message to get something like "the ancient jews believed in a sword wielding bearded man in the sky writing the bible himself", or even that they believed the earth to be flat. you're creating an image of what jews and christians believe and accusing that of being at odds with certain precepts. it's a strawman. you're assuming them to be dumber than they really are/were and condescendingly writing it off.

>> No.15404330

>>15393389
except later Christ reaffirms that Job is among one of the most blameless men to have existed. He lists him right alongside Noah and Moses if I remember right. Why would God posit Job as an example of an upright man if the book is actually a sneaky condemnation of Jobs mindset? I prefer what this anon posted a few threads back on this topic:

>But Job's exceptional faith in God is the reason that, despite his terrible reversal of fortune, he is able to retain faith in *himself* as a pure moral actor. If one were to play devil's advocate, he might say that -- if anything in the story could conscionably be labelled as such -- the more significant "test" of Job's faith was the cross-examination given by his wife and friends/comforters, rather than his more obvious misfortunes. For me, this is the auxillary lesson of the story: Job's comforters, though pious and well-meaning, tried to reach him through their lesser shades of faith -- either some defect on Job's part had earned him God's wrath, or else God had authored his suffering for some other theological purpose /which He intended to communicate directly to Job through his tragedy/ (this is a very important distinction). Either way, their philosophizing places some sort of onus on Job, basically making him -- and, by proxy, mankind -- the center of the universe, and a "catalyst" (through either his faith or his loss of it) for the acts of God. Job, precisely because he has too much practice in pure faith to reconcile this kind of sophistry, remains steadfast. Had he doubted himself and accepted some cockameme explanation of the nature of his torment, Job would have been guilty of a real error of faith: he would have taken the fallible word of man -- who, flawed as he is, time and again adopts pious airs and seeks to be lauded as God's intermediary -- over that which, through unblemished faith, he knows to be true. It's also a lesson in human affairs: there is no problem or tragedy in life which, through the endless vexation to which he subjects himself and others, man cannot make a lot worse. To allow this human weakness to come between onself and God -- e.g. taking the word of a philosoph about how your children are dead because you didn't pray hard enough - is an inconceivable lapse of faith.

>> No.15404343

>>15404330
other posts from that thread that helped me that don't rely on weird modern subversive takes as far as i understand what the anons are saying:

>The theme of God As Mystery is another interesting one. I believe this book, considered alongside the rest of the Old Testament (and not just by itself), seeks a more nuanced resolution of itself than just "God's mysteries transcend human understanding. Certainly, they do --but while the machinations of God's infinitely complex *universe* might be mysterious, He is not Himself a complete mystery -- that is, there are things about Him which we *can* know, and which have been revealed to us so that we might know them. For Job, any man-contrived theory of causation which contradicts the reveled truth of God, or else which enigmatizes God by making Him less "knowable" than perfect faith allows, is a deviation from ideal belief. In recognizing these things and affirming them, Job proves that he really is God's foremost servant, and so "earns" (here I venture a bit too far) a divine answer to his imprecations -- the unfathomable prospect of an audience with God, whose word is beyond all doubt and circumspection. Faith solves.

>> No.15404359

>>15404343
also

>It is absolutely about people losing the wonder of Gods glory by thinking they understand God. It became "God can't let bad things happen to good people, God must bless good people" rather than having faith and trust that he will, hence why everyone was convinced Job must have done something wrong. It illustrates the superiority of the transcendent over mechanical reason.

and

>The book of Job is not answering a theoretical question about why good people suffer. It is answering a practical question: When good people suffer, what does God want from them? The answer is, he wants our trust.

>> No.15404361

>>15404278
I think you're making the mistake of projecting modern ideas onto the people of an earlier time. Think of how mysterious the world was to the people who wrote this book: there's this stuff called "water", nobody knows exactly what it is but nothing can live without it, it falls from the sky, creatures seem to spawn in it and if you walk far enough in any direction you encounter a seemingly endless expanse of it; why wouldn't they think it was some mysterious substance that came from outside the world? Do you think the Egyptians believed that the solar barge was a metaphor? Or Native Americans thought: "The Great Spirit is a concept by which we measure our pain"? If ancient peoples knew about the water cycle and orbital mechanics and so on, why did they never write about it and humour the people who believed in the firmament? Someday, man is probably going to discover something we haven't even guessed at and he's not going to believe that we didn't know about it, because that's human nature, but things change, we don't live in the world the Ancient Hebrews did and the men of the future won't live in the world we're in.

>> No.15404402

>>15404361
Because I'm a damned "Ackshually.." guy, I've also got to point out: the Judeans didn't believe that God physically produced the bible, they believed that he wrote it and channelled it telepathically to it's human authors, the legend was that Moses wrote the Torah and all other books were written by the person who's name they bear. And the idea of God being a bearded man is a Christian invention that came from imagery of Zeus, there is only one surviving depiction of Yahweh and he looks like some kind of Leopard spotted cow-man. There are some idols of El, who was the main god before Yaweh and he looks like a sort of robed man wearing something which I can only describe either as a "tall fez" or a "brimless stovepipe hat".

>> No.15404427

>>15404361
>why wouldn't they think it was some mysterious substance that came from outside the world?
because it only rains when it's cloudy, which anybody can see, and there's four instances where the Bible uses the phrase Floodgates as far as I can tell. Each of them could be described as poetic. I don't know for sure, but considering how much else the Bible got right, and ahead of it's time (spherical space bodies, oceanic rifts) I'm not rushing to buy that the authors literally meant for us to believe in God shaking rain down from the sky. Just like I don't think they expect us to believe that the story of the Garden was literally about the conflict between a man, his wife and a snake. this conflict literally took place, but I think most Christians can agree that the "Serpent" is also far more than just a serpent. Likewise I think their use of descriptive prose in these places was more than an interpretation of weather events. The firmament, when it's used, refers to the heavens, you have to read into it a lot to transpose a flat-earth belief, especially considering other passages. this makes me suspect you haven't read the Bible.

They believed that God caused the rain, that's what I gather. and I believe that too. anything else, to me, is speculation. I don't know anything about ancient egyptians so i won't bother with that.

>> No.15404435

>>15383369
God expects you to be an actual slave to him and accept everything he does no matter how horrible, then chimps out if anyone ever dares to say that he might be wrong. God is a giant sadistic toddler and lucifer was right about everything.

>> No.15404447

>>15404361
also, even if the common ancient Jew believed that water was poured out directly from another dimension or state of reality, it obviously doesn't make it's way into doctrine. the Bible doesn't call you to believe that. that's not part of the dogma. I, for instance, can believe every word of the Bible and have a faith in Christ, the supernatural, etc without once being called to believe in astral buckets of water being poured out by angels. it's a tricky conflation you're driving at.

>> No.15404499

>>15404427
From your point of view rain falls from the clouds, from their point of view rain falls through the clouds from the floodgates. I'm not sure that Job does describe spherical planets, anyway, there's a part where he says the Earth "hangs on nothing" but that's in stark contrast to the numerous occasions when the bible describes the Earth as motionless and set upon pillars. Nowadays, of course, "firmament" is a synonym for the sky, but that's because the bible has had such a profound influence on western culture. There is a lot of interpretation when it comes to the bible, not just trying to square it with science but also with trying to square it with Christianity, the serpent, for example was supposed to be a serpent, not Satan. Note that god curses the snake by declaring that it will becomes man's enemy, given that the bible was written in an arid, desert land where snakes would be a (possibly fatal) everyday hazard, it's not surprising that the'd invent a religious story to explain it's (apparent) malevolence, now that we know snakes are territorial and easily threatened, we don't need the story.
>>15404447
It's right there in the scripture, long before god has made the Earth "God's spirit moved upon the waters" why is the water there before the planet? Because Ancient Near Eastern cultures assumed that water was the primordial substance out of which all things were made. Compare it to the Ancient Egyptian story of Ra creating himself from Nuit (the primeval waters of creation) by speaking his name and you'll see the parallels,

>> No.15404762

>>15404499
>From your point of view rain falls from the clouds, from their point of view rain falls through the clouds from the floodgates.
maybe, i don't know much about the mindset of a common ancient jew, i follow the bible, which in no way calls to believe this. it's not a tenet of judaism or christianity, which is the more important point to me. current christians may believe, for instance, in evolution and marry that to christianity, only for it to be hypothetically blown out in 100 years and never had had anything to do with the doctrine of God.

>Nowadays, of course, "firmament" is a synonym for the sky, but that's because the bible has had such a profound influence on western culture.
i personally would need a lot of citations of compelling quality and reasoning to convince me that the Bible is in any way making a case for a flat earth with the use of the word "firmament" . i find it more likely that there was an auxiliary word for "sky" or "heavens" that was commonly translated to firmament in english. working backwards from that word to "Biblical doctrine supports flat earth" is a massive stretch.

>the serpent, for example was supposed to be a serpent, not Satan. Note that god curses the snake by declaring that it will becomes man's enemy, given that the bible was written in an arid, desert land where snakes would be a (possibly fatal) everyday hazard, it's not surprising that the'd invent a religious story to explain it's (apparent) malevolence, now that we know snakes are territorial and easily threatened, we don't need the story.
see, that's your take as someone who doesn't believe, and is working backward towards attempting to disprove the dogma of judaism etc. the serpent is symbolically used to represent the adversary, satan, etc throughout the Bible. pegging it down to be a warning about snakes would require you to make some very interesting contortions to explain away the major prophets and revelations. i don't think we're meant to believe a simple snake will be the adversary of the message of Christ. that's absurd and requires you to assume the Biblical authors were borderline illiterate and incapable of abstract thought. that's a loaded assumption, one that comes from a condescension towards the abrahamic faiths. "And He shall crush your head" is considered an ancient foreshadowing of the necessity of Christ, as well as the events foretold in revelation.

>It's right there in the scripture, long before god has made the Earth "God's spirit moved upon the waters" why is the water there before the planet?

this is another red flag that you haven't read the Bible. literally one verse before this- the first words of the Bible- is "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". He didn't create the earth out of the waters, he created the land etc out of the waters.

>> No.15404778

>>15404499
as for Job and the spheres, the earth is described as circular in several places, but i remember it offhand from isaiah and job as those are my favorite books of the Bible:

Isaiah 40:21-22
Do you not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,

Job 26:10 ESV
He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

>> No.15404939

>>15404762
>"i personally would need a lot of citation.."

It's never said, just strongly implied, remember when Satan took Jesus up to a mountain and he could "see all the kingdom's of the world"? That's not possible on a spherical planet because you can only see one hemisphere at a time. You can say that it's metaphorical but (being a broken record) I must add that that line of thinking can justify any ancient religion.

>"see, that's your take.."

I read the Bible for spiritual reasons years ago (by choice) and I couldn't make heads or tails of it, I read it later when I developed an interest in foreign religions and Jewish culture and it was a magical experience finally "getting it". I will admit that I'm a little dismissive of Christianity, but that's because I recognise the Old Testament as such an important part of Jewish culture and I know about how much of it was edited to turn this ancient chronicle into, essentially, a prequel for the Christ story. Again, I'm a broken record but if the Serpent is a poetic metaphor, maybe all Ancient religions are works of metaphor and allegory.

>"It's right there in the scripture.."

You're right, I made a mistake, but I was right about the overall meaning of the story, "God created the heaven and the Earth" is the introduction, the actual account begins with the Tehom (the waters of creation) then God makes the firmament to divide "the waters above" (where rain comes from) from "the waters below" (God uses both these water sources to flood the world in the Noah story, first he opens the floodgates to let the waters above flow down, then he breaks open the land to let the waters below flow through.) Then God evacuates the dome to create dry land. At some point God installs pillars to stop the earth from sinking back down into the waters, these pillars are not mentioned in Genesis but they're mentioned quite often in the rest of the Bible.
>>15404778
I'd say it depends on the whatever word they used in the original Hebrew, "circle" could mean sphere or disc, but it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that some of the later stories might mention spherical bodies, the oldest parts of the Bible were written in the 9th century and the Masoritic text wasn't firmly settled until the second century AD, the idea of a spherical Earth was present in Greek thought as early as the 5th or 6th century, so those parts may have been written by later thinkers.

>> No.15404950

>>15404939
Oh come now, the Koran mentions 'diameters' of the world.

Doubting evolution is found in the real world ALL THE TIME.

Doubting that the Earth is spherical? Hardly anyone. What is it with 4chan and retarded fringe theories. :3

>> No.15404966

>>15404950
People in China believed that the world was flat until the 17th century, serious minded men believed in Alchemy once and I'm sure the man of the future would recoil with horror if he talked to us because I'm sure that just by existing in this particular time, we're doing things that will be regarded as primitive superstition in a few thousand years time. Never underestimate what a human will believe when he has no way of knowing otherwise.

>> No.15405709

>>15399838
>>15400806
>>15401188
>many hours later
>no more replies

Sad.

>> No.15405751

>>15404330

I have so far heard no distinction between Man not being the center of the Universe and literal Atheism. He can be moved from the center by every degree once moved by any degree, proponents of this claim have no recourse to this and, moreover, they themselves readily move him, trying to make this flawed portrait of God good by making themselves bad, breaking their backs to lift Moloch to Heaven, as it were. Nor have I heard any explanation as to why the word of Man is fallible but his faith is not likewise fallible.

>> No.15405755

>>15383369
YHVH is a semitic desert demon who likes to torture people for fun

>> No.15405789

>>15405755
Saturn / Kronos is well known in other religions as well.

>> No.15406514

>>15403361
We used to think that illness was caused by miasma and evil spirits, but as our understanding of science changed so did medicine. We used to think god was a big man with a bushy beard but now we have a more nuanced understanding of what god might mean. You're throwing out the baby with the bath water.
I completely believe that theologists would be argueing the metaphorical significance of Thor's hammer if Nordic religion had been written down and codified. But that doesn't mean Thor's hammer never had any metaphorical significance. Ancient peoples' brains were just as developed as ours, the hypothetical nature of religion wasn't completely lost on them. You should give your ancestors more credit.

>> No.15406797
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15406797

>>15403283
>I don't think that the bible is divine and actually prefer buddhism

>> No.15406851
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15406851

>ywn be this good at watercolor

>> No.15408089

>>15405751

>> No.15408213

>>15400882
Exodus is a-historical and never happened. The Israelites were never in Egypt

>> No.15408371
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15408371

>>15408213
>Exodus is a-historical and never happened. The Israelites were never in Egypt

>> No.15408394

>>15408371
Sorry but that's what the evidence shows. No amount of basedjack posting will change that. Exodus is still a great story but to say it's a literal fact is untenable.

>> No.15408428

>>15408394
What do you know about evidence? The amount of documents and evidence you have concerning things is less than it has been in the past, for this reason you should respect the sages of ages past.

Thinking we live in the best possible time for science, history, etc. is folly and is a bigoted view. You are far too prideful. Seek God and repent. :3

>> No.15408455

>>15383369
Steve Jobs was OK, I guess

>> No.15408458

>>15401376
I like how that bicycle marks the historical period and turns the presumed archetype of Father and Son into a story of drunkard who has got in the mood of teaching the kid once in a while. Imagine doing anything with an axe with that hand position.

>> No.15408859

>>15408428
I respect the sages of ages past, specifically I respect Ancient Egyptian scribes, who never mention the events of Exodus in their historical records.

>> No.15408880

>>15408859
Would they really though? It was a rather embarrassing event for their pharoah.

>> No.15408907

>>15408880
Egyptian historical records match up with records written by other counties and with archaeological discoveries, they are credible. The Torah does not match up with other countries records or archaeological records, it is not credible. All of the mainstream branches of Judaism and Christianity have conceded that the bible is not a historical account, but is a work of fiction.

>> No.15409025

>>15383369
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

>> No.15409163

>>15408907
However scientific you put it, let me educate you a little bit. History is written by the victors, never the losers.

Your pharoah enslaved the Israelites, and they were eventually ousted from this region.

There also is credible evidence for this as well. No matter how much you say that 'history doesn't match up hurrr', you cannot deny that you don't know what people did of ages past, and you do not have all the available information either. People are constantly being surprised by historical results. You are not a scientist, you are a fool, another atheistic unbeliever who will not be sent to heaven when you die.

>> No.15409314

>>15409163
>"However scientific you put it.."

In the story, the Hebews were the victors, they disarmed the entire empire and pulled off the biggest mass migration in Ancient History (6000 men + their wives and children) so they "wrote the history" by your reasoning.
>"Your pharoah.."

You've caught me, I'm a 5000 year old cat-god and I'm running interference because I think humans should be worshipping African Cat-gods instead of a Caanite cow-god.

>"There also is credible evidence for this as well.."

The mainstream churches and synagogues don't preach Biblical liberalism anymore, what you're doing is heresy.

>"you cannot deny that you don't know what people did of ages past"

They wrote some of it down, none of them said anything about the Exodus, which if it happened, would have been one of the grandest spectacles in the entire world.

>" who will not be sent to heaven when you die"

Fine with me, there are some cool people in hell, an eternity with Freddy Mercury is a lot better then an eternity with an ancient war-god.

>> No.15409380

>>15406851
/ic/ please leave

>> No.15409559

>>15405751
one has an afterlife and the other doesn't, which implies immutable consequences for this existence outside of itself. it also offers you a moral framework divorced from pure nature. there are similarities between God and an unknowable, seemingly random and callous force, but that's all they are to the Christian mindset, similarities. The belief that faith is rewarded eternally is enough to differentiate the two. i don't really see how you could conflate the them desu

>> No.15409609

>>15409559

What makes you think the former has an "afterlife"? This is precisely the kind of knowledge you seem to proudly condemn. And why is faith not likewise fallible, and the idea of it being rewarded at all, similarly, the kind of knowledge you condemn?

>> No.15409636

>>15409314
>The mainstream churches and synagogues don't preach Biblical liberalism anymore, what you're doing is heresy.
1. citation pls. i grew up baptist, and i never met a baptist who wasn't a literalist.
2. dogma of the Bible > dogma of the churches according to many Christians, myself included. you seem to think that belief for everybody will be malleable to human authority, which means you're incapable of understanding people might literally, honestly believe the Bible. that shows a crippling prejudice on your part.
3. heresy would be contradicting God and the Word, not a random church. several churches preach faith healing which is obviously not canonical and was only observed in the Christian doctrine for a brief period of time to spread the original church to other nations. there's always going to be a human authority you're committing a heresy against, since many of them don't follow the Bible. i can't even begin to understand the mindset that would say "drop your sincere faith, this structure here disagrees with you!". we didn't just suddenly drop our Bibles when the talmud claimed Christ was a subversive magician who is burning in hell, why would I drop it because a random anon claims some churches don't take the Bible literally?

again, we actually, genuinely believe in a God, and this God and his message supersede appeals to authority.

>> No.15409641

>>15383369
Job 40:11-13 is the most metal passage in the bible

>> No.15409681

>>15409609
>What makes you think the former has an "afterlife"?
The promise of Christ that he has defeated death, and that anyone who believes in Him will live even after our material death. that's what faith is to a Christian. it's not based in proofs, otherwise it wouldn't be a faith. but you're trying to equate atheism and a religious model where man is not at the center, so you have to contend with the reality of faith in the face of reason. to pure human rationality, there is no difference since you can't observe it, but we believe in something beyond our ability to observe, rationalize etc.

> This is precisely the kind of knowledge you seem to proudly condemn
what have i proudly condemned? i attempted to answer your question from the perspective of a Christian. i didn't condemn anything.

>And why is faith not likewise fallible,
this is usually where the faithful lose the faithless: by all rational human metrics, it may very well be. but we have embraced the idea that rationality is not enough, and cannot know the whole truth. we have taken a leap past that and choose to have concurrent hope and faith. faith that this doctrine is true, and hope that this faith isn't fallible. that's the whole point. we don't "know". we believe.

>and the idea of it being rewarded at all, similarly, the kind of knowledge you condemn?
you lose me here. are you saying i condemn the idea that we would be rewarded for our faith? when did i say that?

>> No.15409706

>>15409681

What exempts faith from the fallible status you ascribe to all other Epistemologies?

>> No.15409742

>>15409706
from a rational perspective? nothing. it is only because of genuine faith in the particular doctrine of Christ, and how that doctrine speaks and seems to me, that i believe it. from a human vantage point, it's entirely likely that you'll see some mesopotamian death cult and Christianity as equally possible. but because of what the dogma of Christ says about the world, how it lines up with what ive seen and felt etc, i choose to believe it, rationality not withstanding.

again, this is the whole point of faith. surely you've encountered this line of thinking before. at a certain point, we aren't speaking the same language, because i have purposefully thrown away the idea that rational can extend past my own faculties but choose to believe anyway. the center of this is love for the message of the Bible and the message of Christ. i wouldn't trade that for any amount of certainty, knowledge or exemptions.

>> No.15409810

>>15409742

This is sheer idiocy. Beasthood would be less disgraceful. My God.

>> No.15409815
File: 545 KB, 1200x896, 1588863683726.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15409815

>>15383369
The most interesting thing about Job is its finite representation of God.

The god of this book doesn't have the prescience to know Job's heart. He's insecure enough to be baited into a wager. He's insecure enough to imperiously boast about his power to a mortal. The feats he claims seem insanely petty for an omnipotent deity.

>> No.15409820

>>15409636
1. Well, what can I say, but I was wrong, I know nothing of this particular denomination, I'd heard the name before but I just assumed that being Protestants, they were more-or-less interchangeable with Anglicans.
2. I have met Christians who take the bible literally, but it was always my understanding that based on the controversial views they were espousing about god, the Catholic Church, the Queen and other matters, that they were out-of-step with mainstream Christianity, I was wrong.
3.It was my understanding that each church takes it's interpretation of the Bible to be the correct one and that, therefore, to question the interpretation of that particular church was to question the wisdom of God himself. I made the incorrect presumption that your church does not embrace Biblical Liberalism, that incorrect belief led me to the incorrect conclusion that you, yourself were heretical for embracing it. I was wrong.

>"why would I drop it because a random anon claims some churches don't take the Bible literally? "

I presumed interpretation of the Bible was something all mainstream branches of Christianity had agreed upon and that only fringe branches disagree with this. I now know that was a hasty and ill-informed judgement, I apologise.

>> No.15409890

>>15409820
that's extremely reasonable of you anon, im surprised and ashamed that im surprised at once. ill leave you to your back and forth with the other anon since my lack of knowledge about ancient religions aside from Christianity/Judaism precludes me from being useful in the conversation.

>>15409810
but hopefully you at least see the answer i was driving at? from that lack of reason we are clearly differentiated from the belief in atheism. the atheist believes in rationality and that existence ends with the material. we don't, and we act off of that assumption. from the perspective of a material rationalist, there isn't a difference in these standpoints because proof doesn't offer one, but our sincere belief in our dogma makes a world of difference. so the difference is in perspective made possible by belief. your judgements on our mentality aside, you can see that at least, right?

>> No.15409954

>>15409636
>we didn't just suddenly drop our Bibles when the talmud claimed Christ was a subversive magician who is burning in hell
I would like to know where it actually says this in a version of the Talmud I can find.
Can you post a link or a quote?

I'm not being a snarky jew. The Jerusalem Talmud does in fact say some nasty things about Jesus. But I'm aware of no version that says anything about the excrement bit. Or much at all really.

>> No.15409976

>>15383369
whenever I see something like it in film, I recognize that film as a B movie

>> No.15409992

>>15383369
I'm not reading any Jewish lit. Fuck the story of Job.

>> No.15410006

>>15409954
It's a common misconception that Jesus is in Tzoah Rotachat, a lot of people have mistakenly conflated passages in the Talmud which accuse Jesus of sorcery with passages describing Tzoah Rotachat. That's the origin of the myth as far as I know.

>> No.15410011

>>15409954
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#Specific_references
ive heard it debated that yeshua is not jesus, but i always assumed that was a cope. i have screenshots of a physical tora but im not sure where on my hard drive they are.

>> No.15410024

>>15410011
>torah
yeesh. talmud*. also, ctrl+F excrement for the relevant passage to that. i wouldn't be surprised at all if a talmudic scholar had a lot to say against that interpretation though.

>> No.15410067
File: 3.69 MB, 3240x4320, talmudquotes4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15410067

>>15410011
redundant but here's a physical screenshot. i have more that includes things like approving certain kinds of child sacrifice and pedophilia.

>> No.15410145

>>15410024
That's not in my copies of either the Jerusalem or the Babylonian Talmud.

>> No.15410715
File: 119 KB, 640x640, 1581919794499.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15410715

>>15408394
>Sorry but that's what the evidence shows.

>> No.15410912
File: 266 KB, 504x627, Destruction_of_Leviathan.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15410912

>>15383369
Might makes right?

>> No.15411665

>>15409641
I agree:

>11 Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
>and look on everyone who is proud and abase him.
>12 Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low
>and tread down the wicked where they stand.
>13 Hide them all in the dust together;
>bind their faces in the world below.

>> No.15411801

>>15397319
Paul writes in Romans that, if it was possible, he would be accursed (forfeiting the reward of Heaven) if it meant his nation would come to Christ. The Greek word for "witness" and "martyr" are the same for a reason.

So yes, I would.

>> No.15412150

>>15409742
So if something were to be proven to be untrue, at least in the literal sense, you would continue believing it anyway?

>> No.15412715

>>15409820
If you are not taking the Bible literally you are a sinner, that's all there is to it. The bible recounts tales for civilization to learn from and adapt to as they evolve. You are here spreading the heresy sinner.

You are most likely some retarded Christian who believes in evolution. You will burn in hell when you die like the rest of the unbelieving Christians.

>> No.15412756

>>15412715
>"You are most likely some retarded Christian who believes in evolution"

No, I'm not a Christian, although I must admit I respect your conviction, if somebody's going to believe in a religion, they should go all the way.

>> No.15412770

>>15412715
B-B-B-B-B-BASED

>> No.15412786

>>15383369
We and our problems are astronomically insignificant compared to the universe. He never gives Job answers, only illuminates the cosmic futility of his complaints. It’s a story that says: I have a plan and your role in it might very well involve suffering, but it is grand and great so just trust me. It’s the ultimate trick of the Bible, and the way Christfags get away with their twisted logic. Anytime you find a way to challenge them they come back here, to this loop of irrationality. Why would god allow for XYZ? Oh well he’s got an amazing plan for the universe and this is a part of it even though it sucks for me and there’s no way I can ever see any good coming out of it. So it’s all good.

>> No.15412860

>>15412715
>>15409636
May I ask why you include the particular books of the bible you do include? I don't mean to start a polemic I just want to understand. You are aware that other denominations, historically and today, include more books in their canonical Bible, some of which have important theological ramifications; like in Maccabees praying for the souls of the dead is condoned. The answer in Catholic or Orthodox circles is the Church tradition, apostolic succession, or a series of councils, but what is the American Protestants'? Even outside the mainline churches, there are other early Christian epistles like Basil's one could say are scripture, or one could exclude James for the conflict it has with salvation by faith theology. Why those 66?

I'm a lapsed ortho looking back into the church. It's very lonely outside it.

>> No.15412878

>>15383430
>He proves that he is by refusing to curse God.
why do people say this? Job basically rants about how unfair God is for like 75% of the book

>> No.15412884

>>15412878
But he doesn't stop believing.

In fact, his stopping his believing, causes God to come down and help him see that he was correct in what he was doing. Job is basically the 'anti-prophet', he performs a miracle as a mortal, by choosing to still believe in God even though God has seemingly forsaken him.

Think of the binding of Isaac, but in the form of a man.

>> No.15412945

>>15412884
>But he doesn't stop believing.
>In fact, his stopping his believing, causes God to come down
?????

>> No.15412952

>>15412945
He doesn't forsake God the ENTIRE TIME Satan ruins his life. UNTIL he does, THEN GOD comes down and rights his path of faith.

Your dumb ass could most likely not do that. Here you are, being an atheist, because of how cruel you think God is, and it's not even happening to you.

>> No.15412965

>>15383369
It's a literal Near Eastern Jewish myth you fucking slimy fucks. Stop thinking it's some awesome thing that actually happened.

>> No.15412973

>>15412952
First, not an atheist, don't know why you assume that other than cope. Second, if you read the book, God comes down and says that Job spoke the truth, and it was Job's friends defending God we blasphemed. I hate this faux theology. Haven't even read it and acting like you are an expert

>> No.15412976

>>15412965
>STOP THINKING DA BIBLE IS REAL WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Just shut the fuck up, you are the reason this site is shit, get the fuck out of this thread atheshit.

>> No.15412983

>>15412973
Job curses God and demands answers in my translation...

I'm glad you aren't an atheist.

>> No.15412988

Demiurge apologists, demiurge apologists everywhere.

>> No.15412991

>>15412983
Yes, God says Job was right to curse him and his friends who defended God were talking shit. God knows he was being unjust. That was the whole rub.

>> No.15413006

>>15412976
Not an Atheist you fucking human nematode

>> No.15413038

>>15412991
>God knows he was being unjust

LOL. No.

Also, God doesn't say Job was correct, he just corrects his course by explaining the tale of Leviathan and Behemoth.

>> No.15413042

>>15413006
If you don't think the bible literally happened, you are effectively an atheist, and you really shouldn't pretend otherwise.

>> No.15413068

>>15413038
> God doesn't say Job was correct
bro does it embarrass you to believe in a religion and not have even read the most basic and foundational books of its cannon?
>7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.
>8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

>> No.15413072

>>15413068
Those two friends were corrupted first. They were not the believers, God was. Now re-read that greentexted passage with that in mind. Job doubted God for an INSTANT, before Behemoth and Leviathan were explained to him.

You're dumb.

>> No.15413077

>>15413072
Job was the believer.

But I guess God was as well. God believed in Job.

>> No.15413078

>>15413072
>Those two friends were corrupted first. They were not the believers, God was.
his friends never doubt God, they say he is all powerful and all good and that Job must have had it coming lmao. read the bible

>> No.15413084

>>15413078
Job never doubts God either, moron. That's why God says Job spoke the truth in regards to him.

God would literally not reward someone for doubting him, it's against the tenets of a benevolent deity. I would recommend you re-read Job, because you have not even referenced Leviathan and Behemoth as a concrete example of God's existence.

>> No.15413094

>>15413084
please quote where I said Job doubts God's existence. if you cant read my posts how am I supposed to trust you to read one of the deepest works of theology in the Western cannon

>> No.15413101

>>15412878
No, he doesn’t? He curses his circumstances, but he never directly curses God - that’s part of the point

>> No.15413107

>>15413094
Your stipulation is that Job understands that God is being unjust, which while that is the complaint which causes God to chastise Job, it is simply chastisement, not a punishment. God's objective here is right Job's course.

The story of Job is much like the story of Sisyphus, this being is enduring much hardship and struggle while constantly being assailed by affliction, plagues, and misery. Despite even his wife losing her faith, he continues on, and maintains faith and belief.

You said that God was being unfair, which a) he never acknowledges in Job, and you have not posted a passage which reflects that as of yet and b) he never will because God is all-knowing and just.

>> No.15413116

>>15413107
>God's objective here is right Job's course.
no, God's objective was to prove a point to the accuser. at literally no point in the story did God EVER express the idea that this was somehow to teach Job a lesson lmao. seriously, this is like the reading they teach 6 year olds in Sunday school lmao, how old are you anon?

>> No.15413124

>>15413116
>God's objective was to prove a point to the accuser.
How is this not coeval with righting Job's course?

No offense, but YOU type like YOU are 19 years old, which is most likely a more accurate portrayal of YOUR age.

>> No.15413123

>>15413116
also
>You said that God was being unfair, which a) he never acknowledges in Job,
yes, we already went over this. Job's friends defended God and being just, Job disagrees. Job thinks there is no bigger point to this, and Job did nothing to deserve this. God explicitly agrees with Job.

>> No.15413132

>>15413124
>How is this not coeval with righting Job's course?
what was wrong with Job's course? God is extremely proud of him, and the first words of the book are literally
>There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.
I have so much textual evidence to support my reading, you have nothing but cope

>> No.15413177

>>15412150
as far as i understand, you can't prove a negative. i don't use this as rational information to convince you, more that i don't concern myself with that question since i honestly don't think God would create a world where he could be objectively proven or disproven, due to shortcomings in our nature and our chronic need to "own" the universe through understanding and certainty, whatever those really are to a creature that dies in seventy years. this is also part of the lesson of Job.

but if you brought me human evidence saying something to the effect of "physics discredits such and such" or "historical records show yadda yadda" then yes, i would write those off and continue to believe, as, out of love for what ive learned from the Bible, i have chosen to use it as the cornerstone of what i "know" and attempt to define my life around maintaining my faith in it. you couldn't bring me anything that i would believe over Biblical doctrine any more than i could convince you that you were forty feet tall.

this is all hastily written and im probably repeating myself incessantly, but only because i think Christians don't stress this enough and instead try to rationalize God and force others to come to him through rationalization, which i think is brutish and loses the beauty of Christ and faith, not to mention silly since you'll never be able to objectively prove much of anything to the point that it is incontestable, let alone the supernatural. also it's not doctrinal. God requires total faith and trust, he won't buy you off with proofs. for some reason, the ability to make that leap and let go of our own ability to judge is critical to being the kind of person He desires to have with Him and i don't question it, but instead try my best to obey it.

>> No.15413193

>>15413116
So just so we're ALL clear, just so EVERYONE is clear, this is God's response to Job

>1 Elihu continued: 2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's behalf. 3 I get my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe justice to my Maker. 4 Be assured that my words are not false; one who has perfect knowledge is with you. 5 "God is mighty, but despises no one; he is mighty, and firm in his purpose. 6 He does not keep the wicked alive but gives the afflicted their rights. 7 He does not take his eyes off the righteous; he enthrones them with kings and exalts them forever.

>> No.15413201

>>15413116
>>15413193
8 But if people are bound in chains, held fast by cords of affliction, 9 he tells them what they have done--that they have sinned arrogantly. 10 He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil. 11 If they obey and serve him, they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity and their years in contentment. 12 But if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword and die without knowledge. 13 "The godless in heart harbor resentment; even when he fetters them, they do not cry for help.

>> No.15413207

>>15413201
>>15413193
>>15413116
14 They die in their youth, among male prostitutes of the shrines. 15 But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering; he speaks to them in their affliction. 16 "He is wooing you from the jaws of distress to a spacious place free from restriction, to the comfort of your table laden with choice food. 17 But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked; judgment and justice have taken hold of you. 18 Be careful that no one entices you by riches; do not let a large bribe turn you aside. 19 Would your wealth or even all your mighty efforts sustain you so you would not be in distress? 20 Do not long for the night, to drag people away from their homes. 21 Beware of turning to evil, which you seem to prefer to affliction. 22 "God is exalted in his power. Who is a teacher like him? 23 Who has prescribed his ways for him, or said to him, 'You have done wrong'? 24 Remember to extol his work, which people have praised in song. 25 All humanity has seen it; mortals gaze on it from afar. 26 How great is God--beyond our understanding! The number of his years is past finding out. 27 "He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; 28 the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind. 29 Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion? 30 See how he scatters his lightning about him, bathing the depths of the sea. 31 This is the way he governs the nations and provides food in abundance. 32 He fills his hands with lightning and commands it to strike its mark. 33 His thunder announces the coming storm; even the cattle make known its approach.

[Job 37:1-24 NIV] 1 "At this my heart pounds and leaps from its place. 2 Listen! Listen to the roar of his voice, to the rumbling that comes from his mouth. 3 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. 4 After that comes the sound of his roar; he thunders with his majestic voice. When his voice resounds, he holds nothing back. 5 God's voice thunders in marvelous ways; he does great things beyond our understanding. 6 He says to the snow, 'Fall on the earth,' and to the rain shower, 'Be a mighty downpour.' 7 So that everyone he has made may know his work, he stops all people from their labor. 8 The animals take cover; they remain in their dens.

>> No.15413208

>>15413207
>>15413201
>>15413193
9 The tempest comes out from its chamber, the cold from the driving winds. 10 The breath of God produces ice, and the broad waters become frozen. 11 He loads the clouds with moisture; he scatters his lightning through them. 12 At his direction they swirl around over the face of the whole earth to do whatever he commands them. 13 He brings the clouds to punish people, or to water his earth and show his love. 14 "Listen to this, Job; stop and consider God's wonders. 15 Do you know how God controls the clouds and makes his lightning flash? 16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge? 17 You who swelter in your clothes when the land lies hushed under the south wind, 18 can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze? 19 "Tell us what we should say to him; we cannot draw up our case because of our darkness. 20 Should he be told that I want to speak? Would anyone ask to be swallowed up? 21 Now no one can look at the sun, bright as it is in the skies after the wind has swept them clean. 22 Out of the north he comes in golden splendor; God comes in awesome majesty. 23 The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress. 24 Therefore, people revere him, for does he not have regard for all the wise in heart?"

>> No.15413213

>>15413208
[Job 38:1-41 NIV] 1 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? 8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, 9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, 11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'? 12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken. 16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? 17 Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness? 18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this. 19 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years! 22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, 23 which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle? 24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth? 25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, 26 to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert, 27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass? 28 Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? 29 From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens 30 when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen? 31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?

>> No.15413218

>>15413213
Can you loosen Orion's belt? 32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? 33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's dominion over the earth? 34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? 35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'? 36 Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding? 37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens 38 when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together? 39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions 40 when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket? 41 Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?

God is clearly chastising Job for lapsing in judgment, he is the one the only, and for you to doubt that by saying 'HURRR GOD IS ADMITTING HE IS CRUEL' is ridiculously blasphemous. I am trying to right your course, here, anon Job. Right here and right now. Consider me your Elihu.

>> No.15413867

>>15412860
this archived thread has a conversation about it
>>15394629
basically the gist is we find that the catholic church adds books of dubious authenticity

>> No.15413873

>>15413218
not the other anon, but where did Job lapse in judgement? i always have an issue with this because brainlet. it seems to me that job is simply lamenting his lot in life, i can't find a lapse of faith in his section