/lit/ - Literature

>>15054377
partially true. but you got to understand that the identity politics of now is usually justified through postmodernist cliams of a (partially) strawmanned "Modernity" of the whiteman, racism, etc, without realising that their critique in itself also constitutes a form of modernity. I guess its an argument vs a lazy postmodernism (look at any of the types you refer to, they will justify it limpwristally with postmodernism)

> Does JP simply not know what he is talking about

Yes. There are serious right/conservative thinkers I’m sure but JBP is maximum psued and not even a good one at that

>>15054392
Going off this, is there a term for when an authority (as in the person who is making a statement) forgets that by doing so they have the ultimate immediate power.

>>15054377
Identity politics only benefits porky

"My name is Jordan Peterson and my daughter fucked a gay porn star, and I shit my pants so I went to Russia to get the stains out of my underwear, and my wife died, so I shit my pants again, but so hard I went into a coma. Now I'm coming out with a new book about my experience with shitting my pants. It's called 12 Types of Fecal: An Antidote to an Upset Bowel, so maybe you better listen up bucko."

>>15054392
>>15054398
>>15054407
What did postmodern philosophers like Deleuze and Baudrillard think of political correctness and stuff like that?

Not this again. Post-modernism means literal free-for-all between different constructions over power. So, if different reference group (the other) gets to have something I don't or I don't approve, it is all becomes that groups oppressive power.

What do postmodernists actually believe anyway? I know that they reject narratives and all that but what do they actually believe in? Is it a rejection of everything? I do not understand how it works.

If you've read any of his books, you'd know he hasn't read any of the Marxists or postmodernists he hates. It's impressive how clueless he is.

>>15054465
How about you read them

>>15054419
Baudrillard used to be accused of being racist/homophobe/eurocentric all the fucking time.

>>15054465
A lot of these so called "postmodernist" writers are actually trying to describe the contemporary cultural and economical landscape. When they say everything is fragmented, for example, it doesn't mean they're FOR fragmentation. Most of these people don't even try to offer a solution, they limit themselves to produce descriptions.

>>15054484
Wow he sounds based

>>15054377
He is an idiot.

>>15054419
I’m >>15054392 and I kind of respect focoult since he has the decency to follow through with the postmodernist mindset and conclude that whatever he thinks is moral is also contingent on the circumstance, and so refrains from being to much of a moral busybody.

>>15054512
Wasn't he a pedo?

>>15054409

>>15054491
>offer a solution, they limit themselves to produce descriptions.
Well this is a only thing they really can do, as they have tried to exist outside of everything without understanding the mere impossibility of it.

>>15054377
>Does JP simply not know what he is talking about[?]
No that's exactly it. He ventured outside of his bullshit spook field and got demolished, then he continued to blow the BTFO the fuck out of himself when he answered a literal Pornhub ad for Russian brain surgery.
I wonder if JBP posters will find a new daddy or if they'll revert to christposting and reactionary traditionalism.

He has permanent neurological damage after going into a coma in Russia to help with his drug addiction...

Buy my book on how to get your life in order, bucko!

>>15055448
you get "permanent neurological damage" if you get a concussion or get drunk.

>>15054474
>How about you read them
lol no

>>15054377
because they assert that any possible measures of difference between races and sexes are unfounded because those who measure them are doing so from a faulty motivated premise.

Postmodern is the wrong word for this but some faggot like Jordan Peterson can't be expected to grasp the subtleties. He at least noticed that the Pomos question everything, so very detached, except whether races and sexes are different, that is obviously sacred dogma nobody can even think about or you'll be physically attacked

Bunch of retarded faggots whose society will fall in the dustbin, their women raped, their men flabby weak idiots that will be murdered.

>>15054377
IDpol is an inevitable and historically predictable reality of living in a multi-polar, multi-cultural, and multi-racial/ethnic society. Not only that, it's a political necessity for any meaningful coalition building u ser such conditions, and it will continue to be the default mode of politics through sheer merit of its utility. Pinning all the blame on "post-modernism" or whatever other cope is just a scapegoat to divert all attention away from the sacred cow of liberalism itself.

>>15054377
Oh look, another /pol/ question that's nothing to do with /lit/. 6 hours & still not removed. Amazing. Saged for screw you OP, go back to your damn containment board!

“Postmodernism” doesn’t exist.

>>15054377
>post-modernism = rejection of meta narratives

God, this meme has been allowed to go on for far too long

>>15054392
>identity politics of now is usually justified through postmodernist cliams of a (partially) strawmanned "Modernity" of the whiteman, racism, etc,
No.

>>15055937
right all intelligent people know that Postmodernism is actually...

>>15055937
That is what it is, read a damn book for once in your life.

>>15055954
really? how would you describe events like France refusing to record the ethnicity of its people?

>>15055796
Always fun to play SJW or natsoc -game in these

>>15055968
You think that's somehow postmodern?

>>15055956
>>15055966
Post-modernity is a diagnosis not an ideology/ doctrine, it is describing a world following the loss of faith in meta-narratives not a call to reject them per se
This board is filled with projecting pseuds, morons the lot of you

>>15055956
Post-modernism doesn't real in philosophy. It's not a movement which exists in the minds of the figure heads though where it does exist, in the minds of the students who profess it, it is vulgar and corrupted...

>>15055980
>natsoc
No i actually dont give a shit about white people.

Ive just noticed that every single majority black city on earth is fucking trash, even every black neighborhood is trash. Im sure its a coincidence or maybe a concerted effort on the part of some global conspiracy to bring them down. Seriously though there isnt a single example of them in any way succeeding as a people.

How do your prog minds actually process this fact? It would be hilarious to me to know what memes you come up with

>>15055997
How exactly can you make a diagnosis without having an ideology to inform your appraisal of whatever information you've gathered to make it?

is adventure time a good example of postmodern media?

>>15056049
I did not say that you cannot have an ideology, I said "post-modernism" does not describe an ideology itself. Lern2reed or don't waste my time

It is a description (if you prefer that to the term diagnosis) of the world after Modernism, that is all. It's literally in the name bro

>>15054491
Anon, would you risk describing a solution?

>>15056053
What is postmodern about it?

>>15056109
not him, but my chips would be on completely revamping the model we've let the system itself built on marketing, publicity and psychological manipulation
I know it won't be done (at least willingly) but I think it'd change the world for the better

>>15056115
many things
>rejection of an overall grand narrative
>the way plots fizzle out often without resolution or inherent meaning or impact to them
>the characters themselves being references to classical ideals, but having no inherent 'weight' to their actions ie the mere existence and interaction between them is their own meaning
this isn't a criticism of the show though

>>15054491
So a postmodernist thinker could be a traditionalist reactionary using postmodern critical theory to describe the problems with today's society?

>>15056137
Ever heard of a guy called Nick Land?

>>15056024
>prog minds actually process this fact?
I curious (not) what sort of mental gymnastics did you do to brand me as a prog, when I have been fighting them my whole life.
>Seriously though there isnt a single example of them in any way succeeding as a people.
All this belongs to /pol/, so ignore the rest, the most uninteresting parts. Who do you define success: culture, wealth or population spread? Surely there are plenty of examples all around to be found. Caribbeans, Brazil, A-Americans?
And why particularity "as a people". This just reveals your twisted obsession with collectivism. YOU yourself haven't achieved shit with that standard, so stop projecting some abstractions achievements as your own property.

>>15056144
Tell me about Nick Land.

>>15055997
You can't medically diagnose something as disordered without reference to a conception of the body which is rightly ordered. The ordered form, therefor, is implicit within the diagnosis itself. The same is true of post-modern critique of modern and pre-modern society.

>>15056298
So postmodernism is inherently traditionalist?

>>15055997
>Post-modernity is a diagnosis
>This board is filled with projecting pseud
Broken clocks, eh?

>>15056313
In some senses you could say it's anti-enlightenment, it isn't traditionalist in the way you're likely thinking about it. Maybe folky you could say.

>>15054494
>>15054484
>>15054419

When people would ask why Baudrillard didn't address things like racism or engage with feminism in his texts, he'd tell them he didn't care. In the 90's he started using concepts like man/woman binary specifically to anger feminists.

Meanwhile Foucalt was dying from AIDs.

>>15056345
>In the 90's he started using concepts like man/woman binary specifically to anger feminists.
based as fuck

>>15055863
That's a very postmodernist take.

>>15056135
>this isn't a criticism of the show though
I don't believe you, pal.

>>15055848
/lit/ is just /his/ but better because we leave out the boring parts like history and reading.

>>15054377
Have you read his book?

>>15056471
12 Rules for Life sounds not that interesting, but I plan on reading Maps of Meaning eventually.

>>15054474
>How about you read them
I've never seen a single school of thought as stuffily determined to keep itself under wraps as postmodernism. Presumably because they don't want you to know they don't actually believe fucking anything, they just exist to critique and complain, with no route to making any actual claims or ways to improve oneself or society. You can ask about any -ism on the fucking planet and get a flood of responses eager to explain themselves to you and entice you, but when someone asks about postmodernism this is the response I always see them get. Nobody does this about Moby Dick. Or absurdism. Or the French Revolution. And what's with the weird, unspoken reverence everyone seems to have been brainwashed into speaking about postmodernism with, like it's a local religion that you have to pay lip service to just to be heard? That's not raising any alarms? The ivory tower and academia have fortified these concepts against criticism for decades because they're useful to them. I fucking hate this stupid shit.

>>15054491
In the (paraphrased) words of Byung-Chul Han, when philosophers begin to give really in deep analysis of situations it's because the situation is old news by now, and likely on it's way out.
It's no surprise that the postmodernist thinkers could only describe what they are seeing, they're analysing the present after all.

>>15056453
why not, friend?

>>15056024
Everything and everywhere where poor people gather is trash.

>>15056195
It's amazing how you smug retards can so confidently show your ass like this. You call someone collectivist, but when they try to talk about groups you demonstrate you are literally incapable of distinguishing between groups and the individual. It becomes either "not all black people" or "you aren't your ancestors," as if that's what anyone is actually saying. You can't have a fair discussion about what certain groups have accomplished without going haywire.

>>15056049
This is what I'm talking about when I say that postmodernists are always acting like sneaky shits, as is the nature of their bullshit. Of course you need something to inform the critique, the diagnosis, etc. What is that belief system? Don't sweat it, that's not the point, don't check behind the curtain. And the last thing you should ever do is look up examples of what political ideologis tended to influence our biggest thinkers.

>>15056074
Dodging the point. What ideology most commonly informs postmodern critique? There's a right answer.

>>15056483
>I've never seen a single school of thought as stuffily determined to keep itself under wraps as postmodernism.
You're probably coming at it with a lot of baggage then. It's like how people get flustered about there being no meta-narratives.

>>15056695
Assumption. In a dedicated thread there will usually be one anon who doesn't mind spilling, but that is definitely the common response, and it's telling since there's no point in drive-by avoidance like that when you could just as easily not respond.

>>15056482
Then how the fuck do you know what hes talking about dicklips?

>>15056691
the funny thing being that postmodern thought uses the word ideology completely different than either of you retards have used it.

>>15056726
>Assumption
Yeah, but is it? There's a reason you're not getting post-modernism and most people have issues with "bb-but you can't think thoughts like that!!" baggage. It's not a massively complicated idea, it's the attempts at all encompassing architectons/grand- or meta-narratives. Pretty much a There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

>>15056974
Then use the word how I'm using the word and answer the question. Please. Use Wikipedia and start clicking on names if you have to.

>>15056993
>there's a reason you're not getting post-modernism
I get it just fine. I'm talking about the way evasiveness and the determination to gatekeep seems to orbit this particular subject.
>Pretty much a There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Wow, that sounds pretty cool. Please, now tell me how this manifests IRL. What kind of ideas and movements does this propagate? I'm super interested now.

>>15057015
Are you asking what ideas and systems are critiqued by postmodern theory? I'm not going to click around on fucking wikipedia, I have a PhD based off research in postemodern theory.

>>15054465
>What do postmodernists actually believe anyway?

That you shouldn't believe in things that can't stand up to scrutiny. I recall Nietzsche saying something like, "If a tower looks like it can be toppled, it should be."

>>15057148
I don't care about your PhD, and trying to credit yourself with one an anonymous image board shows you're either a liar or a moron. This is simple. What ideology most commonly informs the standards of postmodern critique? There is a right answer. Should be pretty easy for someone so familiar with postmodernists.

>>15057819
>"If a tower looks like it can be toppled, it should be."
That's stupid. You can scrutinize objective reality itself into the dirt if the lens you're viewing it from is cynical enough. How does something "stand up to scrutiny" by any measure postmodernism wouldn't also scrutinize? What you're suggesting is the kind of thought that sounds great on paper, but in action just results in endless destruction. This is why towers don't get built wherever postmodernists hanging around.

>>15058390
The fact that you keep asking that question that way shows that you have no familiarity whatsoever with modernism or postmodernism. In fact it shows that your a little fucking baby that wants to be spoonfed answers that fit into preconceived notions about how postmodernism works. What you're doing is the equivalent of asking a chef what microwave brand is the best brand, then getting utterly fucking confused and repetitive when they tell you their restaurant doesn't use microwaves. Have a rare pepe as a consolation prize you normie fuck

>>15058390
Go have a schizophrenic build you a table then complain that it's unusable you uneducated fuck.

>>15054465
>i know that they reject narratives and all that
And that's all. The thing is, rejecting narratives allows you to make up your own shit from your personal standpoint.

>>15059245
t. midwit who cant read deleuze

Peterson has no clue what the fuck he is talking about. Him talking about politics is either all non-statements or comparing socialists to ethno-statists.

Don't know how anyone takes an 'intellectual' who got addicted to xanax seriously. He's a shittier aurelius for a shittier time.

>>15057148
>postemodern

>>15059290

>>15059268
I honestly haven't read the guy.

>>15054408
t. Niggerkike benefiting immensely from group cohesion

>>15059327
A big part of the constantly posted "rejection of metanarratives" comes from the fact that a lot of postmodern thinkers grew up through WW2, and were told that a better, freer world would rise from the ashes of it, only for a consumer world to arise. Marx was wrong, Hegel was wrong, Sartre was wrong. The "rejection of historical narratives" is the result of that. They're not making things up, they're dealing with the fact that many of the philosophers they were using to help understand the world ended up being completely wrong. They wanted to know why/how they were wrong.

>>15055954
Is it not? What kind of arguments do they use then

>>15059381
No clue but plenty of postmodern thinkers fundamentally reject idpol

>>15054377
Narratives aren't grand narratives

>>15054377
>Postmodernism is a rejection of such narratives.

Filtered.

>>15056483
You got memed on. The postmodernists are easier to understand than you think, but since we still live in the postmodern epoch it's harder to see the actual change in thought after ww2

>>15054491
Fragmentation is a Marxist hangover, not really postmodernism

>>15055997
>Loss of faith

No the metanarratives just aren't taught. They have no bearing on the average person's life

>>15059141
Nobody is fooled.

>>15056691
Postmodernism is only possible in advanced liberal societies. It is not an ideology itself

>>15057819
What is 'scrutiny'?

>>15059549
God's dead but his judgement remains you illiterate fuck

>>15059364
The Marxist postmodernists were still trying to prove Marx was right though. They didn't reject anything

>>15059571
Except Marx is a modernist, so you fundamentally can't be a Marxist Postmodernist. There's post-marxists, but they reject plenty of parts of Marx while showing where he was right. Marx said capitalism would soon lead to socialism, and in the ashes of ww2 it didn't. That was a big part of what fueled postmodernism.

>>15059591
>There's post-marxists
It's 'fundamentally' the same thing as Marxist post-modernists. That line between modernism and postmodernism isn't really true (which is why post-modernism retains the 'modernist' distinction), nor are the semantics of it relevant to the point. For example, is Debord a modernist or a postmodernist? He's a 'response' to both modernisms Marxism and Surrealism, but May 68 was not a postmodern movement. Are minimalists modernists or postmodernists? They're a response to modernism formalism, or a rejection of Greenbergian artistic meta-narrative, but they have more in common with modernism than the 'high' postmodern art that followed. The idea that postmodernism is a 'rejection' of meta-narratives is false because there are still meta-narratives that are believed. We still believe in emancipation, self-actualisation, utopia, etc. If you're trying to apply Marx to the 20th and 21st century you're not rejecting the grand narrative, but you're working out, due to new advances in technology, etc., on what lines is the revolution now possible, and how else are we exploited by the dominant class.

>>15059591
>while showing where he was right
Elaborate.

>>15059658
He called you a fag

>>15055831
Baste

>>15059364
I didn't exactly mean "make up your own shit" as in writing some gibberish and calling that philosophy, but still you've shown me a different approach to postmodernism than the one I'm used to.
I'm familiar with the notion of breaking free of modern philosophy after what the postmoderns considered to be disasters caused by modern thought, but I'm mostly unaware of the "they wanted to know why/how they were wrong" part.

>>15054524
Source?

Why would you take anything Peterson says outside his field seriously? He literally had to google Hegel and shit during his debate with Zizek because he's never studied philosophy or any social theory tangential to postmodernism.

Peterson or whatever simply use postmodernism as a pejorative and that's obvious if you are not a retard.

>>15056461
lmfao saved

>>15056461
I really can't argue with this at all.

>>15059658
Go read any micro econ text book that talks about exchange value, use value, and Value. Guess what, Marx said the exact same things. His concept of ideology is a big part of post-marxist theory. Another thing is commodity/money fetishism.

>>15059672
Check out the Frankfurt School, that was a big concern of theirs.

>>15054377
>he's a pedo
>he fucked a tranny
>his daughter fucked BBC
>his daughter fucked a gay man
>he's a jew
>he's a marxist
>he's a secret commie
>his goal was to disarm anyone right wing
>he's in russian for more psyop training
>he's in russia and he got brain damage

C'mon keep 'em coming.

>>15059562
Looking behind the curtain.

>>15056195
lol good job dodging the issue. theyre violent retards and everybody knows it. There is not one single majority black city anywhere on earth that anyone wants to live in. They literally even flee from themselves.

you know this on some level, you know there is absolutely no real argument to be made about it, so you have to just avoid responding to it and try to attack anyone that brings it up, because youre way too much of a coward to actually think about it

>>15060071
Why is Russia so violent?

>>15060071
>you know this on some level
What an argument. If I were your mother I'd slap you into the Earth itself if you spoke to me like that.

>>15060093
youre not though, youre just a pathetic faggot incapable of even thinking certain thoughts because you were brainwashed to see them as sin. lmao

>>15054377
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoG9zBvvLQ
This video eloquently explains how postmodern has fucked over the education system.

He basically says after WW2 economic Marxism and communism had failed so spectacularly that no sane person could claim they were an economic Marxist, even Sartre gave up on it. Marxism was the most destructive political and economic doctrine ever invented by mankind. It was catastrophic, and students are not taught this. Students have no idea what happened when Stalin was in power. Tens of millions of people killed and tortured.

But then we had the postmodernists, who were all Marxists, but to be a Marxist after WW2 was to be an anti-intellectual, so they did a slight of hand. Instead of pitting the proletariat against the bourgeois, they pit the oppressed against the oppressor. They continued the same philosophy under a slightly different name, except now it wasn't just about economics, it was about power. And since then we've seen the rapid expansion of identity politics, thanks to cultural marxists who are too stupid to admit that their ideas were complete failures responsible for the deaths of millions of people.

>>15059484
I completetly agree, thats why I specifically said it was vs LAZY postmodernism. reread my comment.

>>15060120
Patronise me more bby, you know how I like it.

>>15060120
Why is Russia so violent?

>>15060124
>He basically says after WW2 economic Marxism and communism had failed so spectacularly that no sane person could claim they were an economic Marxist, even Sartre gave up on it. Marxism was the most destructive political and economic doctrine ever invented by mankind. It was catastrophic, and students are not taught this. Students have no idea what happened when Stalin was in power. Tens of millions of people killed and tortured.
This makes no sense. The economic orthodoxy was in massive turmoil post WWII, that's why we got Bretton Woods (which also fucked up several times).

>>15060125
Yeah you're right. I'm just here to be a dick to people acting smug over their midwit interpretations of postmodernism

>>15054377
The sjw crowd is postmodern because they are ostensibly engaging with the western canon as a grand narrative that has been used as a means of opression. They wouldn't claim white people are evil as a function of biological essentialism. They simply believe whites are the constructors and beneficiaries of a false narrative that must be deconstructed. Thats why they're all so gay for Madness and Civilization.

>>15060124
At this point you may as well claim the French revolution was proto-Marxism

>>15060173
By the same token they are not postmodern because their analysis of culture stops at race rather than anything philosophical (where all the postmodernism is)

But this 'philosophy outside of philosophy' is also possible because of postmodernism so...

>>15054377
95% of the people who hate jbp on this board are simply angry that someone would talk to the average person about Nietzsche. It blows a hole in their identity (which is entirely predicated on a gamma male secret-king fantasy) if your average plumber is informed on Solzhenitsyn.

>>15060173
Foucalt was a fucking hack and I can't wait to watch his influence decline.

>>15060187
Yah ,it all goes into contidictory self reference once you are analytical about it.

>>15060174
Well the parallels between the French Revolution and Antifa are quite striking.

>>15054457
Pretty much this, isn't like Foucault the greatest representative of postmodernism? It's just another façade of materialism, with no transcendent truth whatsoever.

>>15054377
peterson is intentionally lying. hes a charlatan retard. he knows what hes saying is bullshit and still says it. it makes me sad that zizek debated him :(. jp is def a closet zizek fan but didnt want to embarass himself, which he did but like 5 x worse than he would have. god i fucking hate jp

>>15060157
Ah, I understand that. I still belileve it is the tool, or strawman for people who do espose the aforementioned veiws. Even if they themselves don't hold up to its intellectual rigor, it is the concept they champion as their proof.

Of cousre, if you follow it to a logical conclusion, their own critiques are subject to the same model, but thats usually pushed to the side.

>>15060231
meh

>>15060246
stop typing like a bitch

>>15054419
they were pedophiles

>>15060246
It's an impossible position to occupy. If they were smart enough to actual comprehend Deleuze/Derrida/Baudrillard they would be smart enough to not make those arguments.

Postmodernity is a part of modernity desu.

>>15060279
You're right, but faggots here are going to pretend that you're wrong.

>>15060174
what? everyone knows 19th century socialist came from Rousseau's arse

Bump