/lit/ - Literature

bump

>>14961108
I think part of it is grass is always greener exoticism. People assume their stuff is boring and uninteresting, while the exotic is mysterious and fascinating.

>>14961108
John of the Cross is extremely good, and unlike Eastern mysticism, which aims at extinguishing the Self so as to be free of the suffering of earthly existence, Christian mysticism is aimed at union with Christ so we may become Christ in the world. In other words, it has an enormous ethical component which the East does not.

>>14961164
yes, i thought of this as well, which is why i am trying to make it mysterious again

>>14961174
yeah, i would say the east is about detachment, but there is nothing to attach to after. the east sort o ends in death.

>>14961164

I've always been mystified by Christianity especially Catholicism, I think it's far more exotic than buddhism which is funny because I was raised evangelical protestant

>>14961239

Eastern metaphysics is about all things dissolving into their original primordial oneness. It's not nothing as much as its everything whole and complete

>>14961287
Sounds like an awfully boring goal.
>>14961239
Yeah, Eastern mysticism is nihilism. Suicide via meditation.

>>14961279
Catholicism went through a phase in the 60s where it became "hip"
where did this awful catholic stereotype come from?

>>14961287
listen to the audio i linked man, you will see how it's the same.
this guy talks about something called the "divine darkness"
that is like the most void thing. he also mentions how we are the temple of God, and like the alter is the thing where we have our god. so when it says we shall have no other gods, it means that we have no other desires.

so that only the ONE GOD is in our hearts. it's like your heart is the alter and your body is the temple.

>>14961299
>Yeah, Eastern mysticism is nihilism. Suicide via meditation.
for sure. and God is the Nothing that they search for

I'm not quite sure how you define Christian mysticism, but one of my favorite devotional books is perhaps "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas a Kempis. I appreciate the focus on humility through the mindset of Christ that he continually references.

I guess as you would describe as Christianity symbolic, which is true there are many, I would continue to say many of the theological truths are simply hidden in plain sight. This is especially true in Christ's teachings or parables. I'd encourage you though, I think if you'd ever want to cut right into the objectivity of it all you should read the book of Romans, assuming you haven't already.

>>14961341
>the theological truths are simply hidden in plain sight
yeah this is what i meant when i referred to the mundane parts of Christianity

>>14961365
I think you're missing the point though, it's intentionally mundane so you'll overlook the stronger meaning behind it all. What would you consider mundane?

>>14961108
Blessed thread

Read Dark Night of the Soul years back but was too underdeveloped to get much out of it, it's John's more advanced material as I recall.

Catholic mysticism is fantastic, and incredibly rich. It's kind of been wiped from the Church's collective memory since the Quietist controversy, but there is an absolute stack of material.

The sad thing is that people turn to Buddhism/Hinduism/Hermeticism etc for muh deep spirituality without realising how deep the Catholic tradition goes.

John's buddy Teresa de Avila is also S-rank reading, The Interior Castle is great.

John of Ruysbroeck is also an excellent read. I've got more interested in the lowlands material like Hadewijch as time's gone on

I personally think some of the less orthodox material (e.g. Marguerite Porete, Sister Catherine Treatise, Miguel de Molinos) are worth reading, regardless of how you feel about the Church's arguments against them (reading Molinos now and I personally feel that there was a lot of strawmanning from seething Jesuits at the time)

The problem I find with the John/Teresa material is that it's a little impenetrable for a layman, I suspect to make serious progress you'd need to find a (Discalced) Carmelite/ Carthusian/ etc monk as a spiritual director

>>14961174
> Christian mysticism is aimed at union with Christ so we may become Christ in the world

Depends how you look at it

Annhiliation of the self (i.e. destruction of the (w)ill to replace it with the (W)ill of God) is a big theme in a lot of Christian mysticism

The line is a little blurry as to what constitutes badwrong Quietist self-annihilation and orthodox mysticism

>>14961407
>What would you consider mundane?
something overlooked, something that doesn't seem profound

>>14961341
No such person exists, you frighteningly monstrous bot, you piece of machinery, you almost infinitely vicious, calculating bug.

>>14961418
I'm sorry I misspoke, I didn't mean the definition. What would you personally within Christian thought view as mundane?

>>14961408
thanks for the recommendations and yeah i agree with a lot you said.

>The problem I find with the John/Teresa material is that it's a little impenetrable for a layman
yeah it's almost disheartening to realize that you need like 10 years of Christian understanding to start to unravel the deeper the truths of this stuff.

>>14961422
>What would you personally within Christian thought view as mundane?
the fundamentals. i can't say more, i really tried but i can't explain it. it's like trying to explain to explain a dream.

>>14961434
Progression is an interesting one. Various saints have mapped out stages of progression but knowing where you are without guidance is difficult

(According to Molinos) Teresa reckoned you could start breaking through the basic discursive prayer stage to Contemplation in about 6 months, while Hugh de Balma apparently thought it was doable in 2 months.

Of course, that's in a monastic setting, for a layman it would work differently, and as Contemplation is the action of God rather than ourselves it's not exactly predictable.

The point should be that the deeper truths unravel themselves when you're ready, the key should really be to get yourself into a position where God can begin to work on you at a deeper level. Molinos probably took this idea to an extreme but it's also a theme of John's work. Thomas Keating tried to explain it better for the modern era (somewhat controversially)

Bear in mind that not all approaches to it are incredibly complicated, e.g. St. Therese mentions that she didn't get much out of complex theology, and advanced more through simple faith.

Considering looking for a spiritual director soon, as I feel that the potential for spinning one's wheels or self-delusion is high if you're just working from books.

Have you tried Tridentine mass, btw? I found that atmosphere is much more conducive to mystical thinking that the Novus Ordo.

>>14961448
Well, even a dream has bits and pieces that can be described. If you can't explain how the fundamentals are not seemingly profound, how are you going to consider more sophisticated concepts as so? It's beginning to sound to me like you are looking at Christianity for the sake of sophistication or complexity, in comparison to other religions rather than it's fulfilling nature.

>>14961456
you seem to be to much more knowledgeable than i am when it comes these matters. it's good to know that someone on /lit/ is into this stuff too, hopefully you are a regular, unfortunately i have to hit the hay, who knows i this thread will still be here when i wake up.

>>14961481
maybe you misunderstood. i was saying that the fundamentals are the most profound things. meaning that the things that seem the most mundane are in fact the most profound when you revisit them.

>>14961501
Not at all, I've just spent more time spinning my wheels reading, can't say I've attained very much.

It's a pretty niche topic, the only people I've met on 4chan who knew anything about this area would be on /x/, but that's obviously not just Catholic-specific, more like mysticism in general.

If it's not here when you wake up, feel free to make another thread, I'm always happy to chat about this topic.

>>14961501
Oh okay, yes I did! I'd say you're completely right then.

very blessed thread lads. Unfortunately i have nothing to contribute but i would love to see this be made into a general

>>14961610
Well pick up a book and start reading, you'll learn as you go.

Try some Teresa de Avila

>>14961108
>I have been laughed at for comparing Christianity to Buddhism and Hinduism

You are correct OP. The parallels between Buddhism and Christianity is a legitimate topic. There are even books about this: "Living Buddha, Living Christ" by T.N. Hanh. For Christianity and Taoism, there's "The Tao of Christ"

Top tier thread, will be watching closely.

Also, who else /Merton/ here?

Teresa de Avila is the most neurotic mystic i encountered. The cloud of unknowing was nice, i like very simple prayers or "mantras". One syllabul is best for me. I Would not be good with the orthodox jesus prayer.

>>14961906
>neurotic
cool it with the antisemitism

Catherine of genoa is one of my favorite Catholic saints, you could feel the love in her words as if they were a fine wine and fire. Bleeding delicious words. "Little mary" ,(Maria Valtorta) is another underrated saint from Italy. The miracle of hers was to write a more detailed gospel called the poem of the man-god. She had visions and wrote them down, they became several books worth of gospel.

>>14961935
You obviously have not read her works, but who said anything about jews? Was she a jew lol

thoughts on dionysius the areopagite?

>>14962067
Haven't read him but several authors I want to read (like Hugo de Balma and John Scotus Eriugena) based their stuff on his so I want to read him first

He's seen as the originator of a lot of the strands of Catholic mysticism that emerged over the centuries, very influential

To Be is to Be Seen: Nicholas of Cusa's "De Visione Dei" pt.1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZdVPC02Kow
To Be is to Be Seen: Nicholas of Cusa's "De Visione Dei" pt.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6vwg10l0S8
To Be is to Be Seen: Nicholas of Cusa's "De Visione Dei" pt.3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICPafOLPyUM

>>14961279
Well, in a way that is exotic. Often time the closest “other” is the most forefront in people’s mind.

>>14961972
She was a jew and converted, I just made a joke because jews tend to be neurotic.

>>14961413
None of the mystics I have read have ever talked about annihilation of the self (EO). It is the opposite actually--the Flesh and Blood and tolls like Hesychia bring out the fullness of our humanity, they don't snuff it out.

>>14962156
I think strictly speaking the annihilation-focused mysticism tends to be more like Quietism, Free Spirit etc, so slightly outside the pale for orthodoxy

Haven't read much Eckhart but as I recall he touches on this a bit

It's not so much destroying yourself as surrendering your will to do God's will instead. But as I've never undergone that process I can only speculate

I find mysticism to be incredibly depressing. Not because it is in its essence, but rather because it speaks of all these terms about love that I have never experienced.

For me, I find religion to be a reflection of my romantic life. I cannot help but feel that, for many people, this sort of mystic love is just a replacement for a real love they could never get. Yet at the same time, all wordly love is bound to fade away, so I can't even really criticize that. It is just sad reading this sort of stuff. There is such a refined sense of humanity within it, yet so too a refinement that can never truly be realized, that is always beyond one's graps.

In other words, I am going crazy because I have rejected atheist/agnostic girls in hopes to find a wife with some sort of religious values, yet I have had no luck and now feel as if I have thrown away the prime of my youth without ever having love.

I'm hardly even practicing anymore. I have become too deadened. How can the Saints demand people to find their "vocation" when a vocation to marriage such as mine has turned out completely sour

Is OP David Tibet?

>Christian Mysticism
Based
>Eckhart
Based
>Saints
Based
>Prayer
Based
>Contemplation
Based

Schopenhauer said that Christian mysticism is to the New Testament what alcohol is to wine. Purified knowledge of higher strength

Anyone have a favourite press for Catholic leatherbound books?

Baronius Press have great editions of the Catechism of Trent and Imitation of Christ, I'll try and get hold of their Interior Castle once their international shipping resumes

Angelus Press (the SSPX one) do a great 1962 missal but I'm not sure about their rest of their stuff

I'd love to get some nice editions of mystical works, a leatherbound Ascent of Mount Carmel would be great

>>14962310
You've tried to find someone in church yet?

>>14962470
Yes. No luck. Most girls my age are already taken. The Church I go to isn't in my town, so it's hard to be involved with that community in the first place.

>>14962488
Christian dating sites helped for me. It's a bit awkward to put yourself out there at first but it helped me find someone

>>14962501
I have been on one for nearly half a year without a single match. I get plenty of matches on secular dating apps, but that isn't what I want.

>>14962488
Wasn't Mary 12 when she birthed Jesus?

http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/stjoseph/formdocs/how.htm

Some interesting thoughts on how to read St. John of the Cross

He goes a bit overboard on the prep work but I like his idea about the book order (i.e. not Ascent first) and reading Ascent in a slightly modified order to help it make more sense

personally I think the only real question is how do you relate to/relate spiritual experience, where the root is common but methods vary and Islam supported by the New Testament is the straight path and God knows best.

>>14962503
That sucks. Hopefully you can find someone. Do not give up hope

>>14962551
but where what we're trying to do: as you put it OP
>so when it says we shall have no other gods, it means that we have no other desires.
which I believe the buddhists would consider to be more or less the same thing as being free of worldly attachments so that you are free to meet and mingle with the spiritual and gradually become of it, which they agree with us comes down to Love.

>>14962551
read st.john of damascuses rebuke of islam.

>>14962310
youre not practicing because youre not chasing God but women who happen to meet your egotistical values.

God will give you a woman that you deserve as an individual if you first have faith in him .

Plus mystic love is not replacement for real love, one can love both God and his wife.

>>14962600
>st John says Muhammad is antichrist
>Jesus says there will be others after him and to judge them on the fruits of their teaching
>muslim men are the mildest, kindest most humble people you'll ever meet

>>14962416
>Christian mysticism is to the New Testament what alcohol is to wine. Purified knowledge of higher strength
i like that, very true

>>14962132
Ah. Did not notice jews tend to be neurotic but holy hell she was. I am too.

>>14961164
Pretty much. I'm reading Jungs "Archetetypes and Collective Unconscious" and he talks about this right in thr beggining of the book and how it's a process who beggined since way back in the past, where people dissatisfied with Christianism would travell to Egypt and India in the search of exoteric teachings while ignorind the vast symbolism of Christianism.

>>14962551
How do you reconcile the New Testament's claim that Jesus is the Son of God against the Quran's claim that God has no son?

>>14962515
Maybe but 13 would be a better number because it is the germatria for ahavah (love), "my father", one, void. Biblewheel.com has some neat stuff though Now the author does not believe his own book.

>>14962632
>muslim men are the mildest, kindest most humble people you'll ever meet
lol

>>14962677
with difficulty
but ultimately theology is a crutch- the relationship to God is direct.
I think we're all Gods children, and that Jesus was a man whos mission it was to personify Gods mercy for the world. Therefore he was allowed to do miracles, to show that mercy beyond doubt, while still being a man. In Islam I think the equivalent to Jesus is the Qur'an. Of course these two are different approaches to the same question, namely "how should Gods mercy be communicated", and I consider them to be complementary. Muhammad said that his prophethood was the cornerstone which completed the most wondrous construct: he finished what was largely already there. I think ignoring such a big part as Jesus is in that construct is a mistake, while at the same time I think sunnah in general and salah and zakat in particular lead to a correct religious method. My own experience was that reading the New Testament I got to know and love Jesus, but I did not get a method for doing anything with that love. The Qur'an holds onto a claim of being a continuation of Abrahams original faith, which is very simple. I believe that's true: it is the simple way. Believe in and trust in God; pray; give. What Jesus gives me is that it is easier for me to understand that he loves me than it is to grasp Gods love for me, and sometimes I need to feel that love. Jesus is the ideal man to me, and the fact that he is the ideal man proves that the world is good and that God is good.

>>14962719
>Believe in and trust in God; pray; give.
now you can say that this is what the New Testament teaches too, but to me the Qur'an does so with greater effect.

>>14962632
>>muslim men are the mildest, kindest most humble people you'll ever meet

lol you must be white

>>14962719
cringe

Eckhart. Based or heretical crypto-buddhist cringe?

>>14962719
>>14962727
While I can see where you're coming from and do think somewhat similarly myself, my original question is still unanswered. The "it's all the same deep down" view may be fundamentally true but taken at face value its nothing more than a hippie-tier cheap copout that only leads to decadence. The new age movement is rooted in such vanity, that's what makes me so cautious of pursuing that route. They may be true and yet conflicting. I don't know how to go about it. I do know that the Qur'an and the New Testament make two distinctly contradictory claims regarding whether Jesus is the Son of God. I believe he is. Whether you want to go about it so as to state that God is able to overcome all contradictions and therefore the Qur'an and the New Testament do not contradict each other on a spiritual, truer, plane, you'd have to etch that one out somehow. Personally while I do not view the Qur'an in a negative light, I didn't feel the bliss of light from it as I did from understanding the theology of Christ crucified.

>>14961108
>the Christian tradition is written in mundane language that necessitates an informed reader to fully comprehend the symbolic structures.
which just means that intellectual christians [lol] are nto good at meditation. Even the hindus are shit. Only buddhist manage to speak clearly about it.

>>14962776
kinda in-between

>>14962789
>its nothing more than a hippie-tier cheap copout that only leads to decadence
oh yea no no no I absolutely think there is a superior tradition that is not what the hippies are after. Islam means submission, a muslim submits to Gods will. my theory is that while their traditions share a root with mine they come with strictly inferior methods.

I've had many theories on what that contradiction means and how it should be handled. I don't have a final answer.

>>14961174
>In other words, it has an enormous ethical component which the East does not.
I love how christians compeltelfy fail to understand Eastern mysticism. I also love how christian are devoid of morality, and that morality is their endgame, when morality is the begining in Eastern mysticism. Christians cannot get enlightened, and even get good at meditation, exactly because they pollute their mind with gods, and can only talk about meditation through deification, just like the Hindus.

>>14962824
>I've had many theories on what that contradiction means and how it should be handled. I don't have a final answer.
Same here friend. I don't think the final answer could be expressed well in the human tongue nor understood well with worldly logic, much like the life and death of Christ.

>>14962789
They all have in common the teaching of not being led around by your desires, which is where the New Agers fall down, being essentially hedonists.

>>14962794
Well of the reasons Christians meditate is so that we can give ear to good spirits and to in general notice the world of spirits more. In reading the Bible, if we do not lean on our own understanding, we might make room for a better understanding. I supposed Buddhist do something like that too?

>>14962916
I agree with this take

>>14962826
You are incorrect in believing that morality is Christianity's highest thing. But morality does happen to be one of those things that's kind of hard to escape from. I can't wait to be in heaven and see different representatives from different religions and beliefs and learn who was the closest to reality or for some expert to explain how they're all in unity and such and such. Cause for me I think reincarnation is a description of being and not a literal thing that happens in the common sense of that belief. but I would also not be surprised if some people choose to reincarnate. but choosing is already something closer to New Age. New age is probably the most hated of all "religions". They at least have a few nice terminologies.

i pity the followers of the jews

In Christian spirituality we believe that God helps us. Buddhist apparently don't believe in God but God still helps them anyways. Cuz God acts according to being and our inner intentions which create the shallow words and thoughts. He is a just judge. but I suppose they don't need the concept of Justice? They must simply cease dukka/suffering?

>>14962955
In buddhism the spirits come from hinduism, because the hindus do exactly like you described. In buddhism, meditation is about mostly the mind and perception, after the joy. The gods are not enlightened just by being devas and they cannot be trusted.
Christians are at best good at jhana 1 or 2 (for the best), hindus sometimes manage to push up to 3rd jhana. 4th jhana is the hardest, but still accessible to non enligthened people. After the fourth jhana there are 4 modes, and it is those modes which are about mind and-or devas. The point is to understand those jhanas through conditionality and how they are NOT enlightenment, instead of babbling about gods and devas and (re)births. This is why theists will always fail to get enlightenment because they confuse meditation with enlightenment.

The claim is that controlling the citta is making it peaceful + the vedana-sanna (ie feelings perceptions) are fabrications of the citta + excited citta gives displeasing vedana-sanna, ie sensuality, ie what is felt by humans and animals and ghosts, and calmed citta gives pleasant vedana-sanna, ie what is felt by devas.

So the path is to stop polluting the citta by greed, aversion and delusion, which will make vedana-sanna better than when they are polluted and resulting in sensuality, and even better they will stop like it is the case for arahants... So there is no longer any birth, ie going up in the ladder with the devas, and going down with the animals and whatever there is in hell.

>>14963069
Where do enlightened people go? Why don't Buddhist seem to like positive expression of being? We're already with God, all of this is profit and play. In the Bible we are told not to make a carved image of God which is different from God as he is. so in that sense you could say that we also do not listen to those gods that are not really enlightened.

>>14961108
Church has been its own enemy on mystic front, the few I know were persecuted by church iirc. But layman really isn't interested about mysticism or religion, few people who call themselves buddhists or bhaktis don't really know what they are talking about.
>>14961174
>which aims at extinguishing the Self
Not really, eastern religions believe in reincarnation so there is contemporary self or the current you, and eternal self that is same with every life you live.

I can't stop thinking about Catherine of Siena

>>14963475
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n22wRTV7_m8
Made me think of this

>>14962655
Ironically, Christianity has some of its hidden roots in Egypt.

Any recommended reads for someone interested in Francis of Assisi? I'm looking to pick up Bonaventure's Life of Francis but wanted to know if there's anything else I should look into.

>>14961287
They want to simply comply with entropy?
Pathetic

>>14961108
Can anyone give me a quick rundown on why i need to believe that 2000 years ago a jew born to a virgin and who turned out to be LITERALLY god, defiant of local authorities, was crucified and then bodily and literally resurrected (as in exoterically and non-mystically; it literally happened at a specific point in time and you could have recorded the event with a camera if you had been there), appeared to hundreds of people and then was never heard from again? What part of this necessarily historically contingent belief is critical to mysticism, understanding God, our existence as a soul, etc?

>>14963769
I think that is a more childish understanding of their thinking. In all of our religions we have children. So it's easy to attack childish views and put them down. God is the very Wellspring of life, so we can't really think of it as entropy. We should think of it as more coming into existence. this world is some kind of partial existence in comparison. I'm taking the bet that many Buddhists simply take too literally some of their teachings. And Buddhist seem to be very concerned about techniques and don't want to bother with much else as it is kind of a distraction in some way. Communion with God is not necessarily only how Christians are if communion with God is life itself.

>>14961108
>i think it is due to the fact that
Nah, it's because you're a moron
If you believe in christcuckery, you need to kill the heathen and the infidel, because their falsehoods make people's actual selves burn in hell forever
But no, you are concerned being 'understood'
You all need to stick your head in the oven

>>14963776
>appeared to hundreds of people and then was never heard from again?
He is still heard from all the time. I do not know how important it is to believe that he was raised in the flesh. Even swedenborg believes it. For me if he did he did and if he didn't he didn't. It does not matter to me because all of reality is being raised from the dead. If I am not raised from the dead and it does not matter if I believe he was raised from the dead in the flesh. If God broke rules of reality then he did, but I want to understand what he means by it and what it means for me.

>>14963849
>It does not matter to me
So you're actually so retarded that if the manga says his power level is over 9000 it is, internal consistently, much less REALITY matters not at all
And you keep going on and on and on about how people don't understand you...
Maybe it's because YOU'RE A FUCKING MORON

>>14963841
Turn judgment inwards and you will see the truth of all these supposed horrible things. What a mess when people only see evils outward and are unaware to see what's inside them. What is inside gives rise to what is outside. Having murder in your heart can lead to murder. So kill the Heathen inside of you. God is just and with you and will help you fight the evil ones. They will roast in Hell forever hahaha.

>>14963825
Do we view gnosticism as a part of Christian mysticism?

I would say the reason for children is to have a chance to reunite more lost souls to the pleroma.
Unless the souls of children are sucked from the pleroma in which case, fuck. Don't have children

>>14963849
>I do not know how important it is to believe that he was raised in the flesh
How is that not the absolutely most important and most fundamental part of everything that is and can be considered Christianity? If there was no resurrection literally EVERYTHING is just a bunch of human wank. In a christian context the resurrection is THE most important event EVER, in all of history, inside and outside of time. More important than Creation, more important than god's convenant with Abraham. Without the resurrection there is zero (0) foundation for Christianity. There's no reason to be a christian except for shallow aesthetic reasons.

>>14963860
Internal consistency starts with the subject not The object. Materialism is a hell of a drug.

>>14963655
Yes, I agree. But it is so difficult to find material about it. Are you aware of any book that covers this similarity between them?

>>14963877
Christianity condemned gnosticism for certain reasons such as knowledge being the way to Salvation which then condemns the simple who might have a great love & Faith in themselves. But gnosticism has spoken certain good truths as well that should be acknowledged. I view the Gnostic mythology as a kind of explanation of our perception of reality and not as something that is purely ontological. At first we don't understand reality very well and so it seems like he's an enemy. The Gnostic demiurge is to me a spook and his archons are spooklets. But they are also representative of actual evil spirits that try to lead people astray. But I do not accept that the demiurge has much power at all. His power is through lying, distortions, and ignorance.

>>14963878
But some Christians believe they will be resurrected In the Flesh in a very crude way rather than in a glorious Godly way. There is a resurrection of the flesh in it's most purified of forms, otherwise we would cease to exist when we die. The Flesh is the seed and the plant is our Celestial body. One would not wish to again become the outer shell of the seed which is only useful for a Time. Our appearance will be a reflection of how we developed as souls. That is how there will be a resurrection of Shame as well. I just use the same logic as miracles. If they are literal them they are literal. I'm open to it. in fact I was so open to it that I tried to do Miracles as well but unfortunately my eyes are not healed. But my soul has certainly been healed in some measure. One time the doctor said my mom was going to die but I prayed and she lived. Now I don't know if she would have lived or not had I not prayed but I was still thankful to God and to his servants the doctors and nurses. I know this - That Jesus Lives yeah and the Saints are alive and further that they help me.

>>14964006
No dude I mean Jesus' resurrection has to be a literally real historical event that happened in a physical and material way at a specific point in time or else the entire foundation of Christianity is vaporized.

>>14963941
The demirge doesn't lie. Is something you believe spoken in ignorance a lie?

I think siding with the demiurge is a valid path. I feel that gnosticism unlocks the potential to stay in the demiurges plane of existence or to rejoin the pleroma. There is no reason that vanilla Christian cannot be comparable with gnosticism.

Knowledge being the key to salvation is true for almost any kind of salvation. Some people might stumble upon it accidentally. The knowledge is simply that of morality and the system we exist in.

>>14964013
I'm not seeing how it would be vaporized at all. One would have to explain to me why he needs to be raised in the flesh in order to fix reality. In fact he was raised in the flesh and yet why did not people notice his appearance? Because something strange happened in this Resurrection. He was not subject to the rules as if he was merely raised from the dead. He could apparently phase to different realities. That is a characteristic of the spiritual world. So then I suppose I do believe he was raised from the dead in the flesh but with a celestial body which could materialize into this lower reality. I have not seen angels do this but in theory they might be able to or else it is only a vision that we have of them when we encounter them in this world.

>>14964032
Yes I think that often when something is condemned it is condemned because of certain dangers even if it's not the whole story of that thing which was condemned. When the Gnostics speak of a certain kind of knowledge it seems to me to be more something to do with God then with believing in or having knowledge of the right things. Funny enough a lot of Christianity heavily emphasizes right beliefs. There is danger in that even though it is also useful. The real danger is in having a "wisdom from Below" or a shallow and Petty knowledge which masquerades as the beauty of the Divine.

>>14961108

Christian mysticism tends to take on a gnostic or platonic character.

Beyond its hellenic elements, Christianity is just a barren and exoteric form of Judaism. A rebellious slave morality, and a collection of old wives tales. Nothing more really

>>14964089
You act like you can objectify a complex dynamic reality into so simple a thing. Christians have slave morals when they have slave morals. It does not mean we are all like this. it is not good to Discount the subjective nature of each soul. You summed up what you see of it and others see differently. Hopefully you are on your good path.

Has anyone read this? The premise seems really interesting but I can't tell if it gets into esoteric territory or not, which I'd prefer to avoid

>>14964089
couldn't be more wrong.
judaism is the exoteric and literalist reading of the Scriptures. Christianity doesn't fall in the hellenic rationalism nor in the Judaic literalist reading of the Scripture. In Genesis already is present the Jesus coming, the triadic God and whatnot.

The core of most mainstream interpretations of Christianity is a sort of sentimentalism. There’s a big emotional attachment to Christ, Biblical stories, following certain rules and dogmas, avoiding certain sins, being part of a community, etc. Now, none of these are very bad of themselves, but when misapplied, they can become pretty crappy. People start getting really holier-than-thou and judgmental without even noticing it. “I’m so much humbler than you, you stupid fucking New Ager Buddhist! Pffft, look at these arrogant sons-of-bitches thinking they can do anything without Jesus.”

You can find some great stuff in Gnostic interpretations of Christianity, some mystical interpretations of/writings about it, and even in Western esoteric traditions like Hermeticism, Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, etc. Unfortunately, just when it starts to get interesting, too many Christians go, “That’s heretical OCCULTISM which comes from the devil, my poor child. You are suffering from extreme pride and in opposition to God, my child. The Devil draws people to occultism and the study of different religions to puff them up with pride. I will pray for you, but even then, don’t expect too much, since you seem pretty far gone. Enjoy hell, fucking New Ager!”

All my provocativeness aside, I love Jesus.

I am putting together some titles in order to make a chart:
>"16th Century Mystics in Spain"
So far, I've got:
-Fray Luis de León: Cantar de los Cantares
-San Juan de la Cruz: his poems
-San Ignacio de Loyola: Spiritual Exercises
-Santa Teresa de Jesús: Camino de perfección, Moradas del castillo interior,
-San Juan de Ávila: "Audi filia, et vide", Epistolario espiritual para todos los estados

What do y'all think. The value of this chart both on a literary and religious level would be pretty high.

>>14964216
>People start getting really holier-than-thou and judgmental without even noticing it.
yea i just read cs lewis scretape letters and he says exactly that. he warns against pride of one's spiritual life and pride of one's humility and virtue

>>14964259
>>14964216

The fact that the Christian tradition is heavily exoteric is both positive and negative in different ways. Its positive in that some decent teachings are able to be well absorbed by the masses and allow for a church organization which encompasses the average person. The exoteric aspect of christianity is the reason for its success. The detraction is that an excess of exoteric has led to very superficial readings of christianity and is the cause for the schisms. Such instances of american protestantism in all its retardation are product of the exoteric nature of christianity.

>>14963776

Belief in Resurrection, short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Dc01HVlaM

Long version: https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Christian-Origins-Question-Vol/dp/0800626796

>>14961302
>this guy talks about something called the "divine darkness"
Honestly,sounds like gnosticism. Keep a firm grasp on scripture and dont be carried away by the excessively philosophical. Remember, philosophy is the handmaid. She is to be used, but not loved.

join this discord server gfeRNrW for intelligent discussion

no hylics, no normies, incels only

>>14964365
But the dark cloud was there to comfort Israel in the Old Testament, and was very warm at night. I wish to live here forever.

>>14964006
Russian cosmism love only needs to triumph in one of all possible universes in order to triumph in all of them

>>14964253
nice

>>14964615
:D

>>14961299
Suicide via meditation feels amazing though.

>>14964126
>I can't tell if it gets into esoteric territory or not
from my reading of Taoist texts and knowledge of Christianity; I'd say it's highly likely.

>>14964843
>Suicide via meditation feels amazing though.

>>14964253
>his poems

Spiritual Canticle maybe, or the Ascent

Francisco de Osuna's "The Third Spiritual Alphabet" might be worth including too. Haven't read it but I've heard good things

There are probably more minor mystics from this period that get overlooked, if you speak Spanish then you're in a great position to dig a few of them up. Making people aware of them would be a great use for the chart

>>14962655
And it’s not like the reverse didn’t happen either. Japanese in the pre Christian bam period, and middle easterners in the early 1800s fetishized the west and Christianity to some extent.

>>14961341
Imitation of Christ is beautiful, I'm only beginning to find faith but I was really taken by that book

>>14961514
Lurker here, also hoping for more of this tomorrow. I don't have much good to say, but I love reading the conversations.
God bless you guys.

>>14964382
THIS IS A TRANNY DOX SERVER, DO NOT ENTER DO NOT ENTER
THEY WILL TRY TO BLACKMAIL YOU INTO TAKING HRT MEDS AND POSTING PICTURES OF YOURSELF WEARING THIGH SOCKS

>>14967587
The curse of the tranny is Mankind's desire to find their other. God Love's and desires his other. You could say that mystically the Divine became the cosmos. God is trans-Cosmos. But the sinful nature of this reality is its imperfection, that is why the symbol of the tranny is imperfect and suffering.

>>14961108
People dont understand their relationship, because the religion of the West is not Christianity, but Occultism.

>>14961279
Makes sense, Buddhism evolved out of the same similar faith your ancestors practised. Its why Christianity gets mixed with Greek philosophy a lot.

>>14967185
np fren, grab a book and stick around

https://discord.gg/FFwRXKq

>>14963776
>What part of this necessarily historically contingent belief is critical to mysticism
All of God. God's providence controls all of history.

>>14964049
>He was not subject to the rules as if he was merely raised from the dead.
Retroactively refuted by Saint Thomas.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

>>14962627
>God will give you a woman that you deserve as an individual if you first have faith in him .
this. if you're not sincerely and diligently doing at least your three daily prayers you have no right to complain anon

>>14962470
How does an autistic such as myself go about doing that?

>Guru Nanak taught that living an "active, creative, and practical life" of "truthfulness, fidelity, self-control and purity" is above the metaphysical truth, and that the ideal man is one who "establishes union with God, knows His Will, and carries out that Will"

christinaity is so based from the POV of midwits that indians adopted it

>>14961279
>>14968020
Yeah buddhism is not entertaining enough according to hedonists. those people prefer lots of chanting and painting and loads of useless rituals.

>I prefer Christian mysticism because its symbolism is the same as eastern religions but more obtuse and needlessly complicated

>>14969458
Its symbolism is completely different and compared to tantric, daoist or vajrayana practices it's actually far more straightforward

But your post was intended to be contrarian, I know you have no intention of reading any of the source material

>>14962627
I mean you are right, but I tried doing that for like 4 years and it didn't get me anywhere. It's one thing to say it, its another thing to actually live it, considering i've given up opportunities with other women specifically for a religious partner.

This thread is about mysticism and mystical literature

All tfw no gf posters please move to /r9k/ rather than shitting up the thread

>>14961413
>>14962259
Synergia has absolutely nothing in common with annihilation at all. You are literally cooperating with God, retaining your autonomy and doing it with your own free will and volition.

>>14962632
>muslim men are the mildest, kindest most humble people you'll ever meet

>>14962719
>I think we're all Gods children
Quran explicitly states that refering to Allah as "Father" is a heresy.
>And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken [for Himself] a son."
>You have done an atrocious thing.
>The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation
>That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
>And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son.
>There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a >>>slave<<<
Congratulations. You literally failed in the very first sentence.

>>14961966
>Valtorta
Just want to point out that Valtorta is not yet a canonized saint, and that her work is extremely controversial.

>>14962627
I struggle with this immensely. I could find a girl to marry now, who goes to church, but I can't find women here who I am attracted to, and since this area is not so affluent (think south america) that I can't be so sure she truly is pious and not just desperate for some funds.

I do really understand how deep catholic mysticism is. One recognizes a true mystic by the contend of his character and the fruit of his actions. There's too many christian mystics to name who have proven that point again and again.

But It doesn't help me because frankly i just can't help believing that Jesus was something besides a incredibly wise, possibly divinely inspired man.
I was raised atheist and Buddhism and Hinduism especially brought me to God, but you're right in saying I went to them because they seemed more exotic, and my main interactions with Christianity at that point had been schizos screaming at me in youtube comments about how I was the devil, so I wanted to stay as far away as possible.

I've brought this up to other Christians who all give the same awful advice
>oh just pray to Jesus bro and then he'll appear and you'll know 100% he's the only way trust me
Which did nothing, I really wish I was just born into a catholic family so that I could just accept this as my path and move forward, but I wasn't and my brain isn't getting convinced by the frankly garbage arguments some Christian's here give for why only their religion is right.

So what am I supposed to get out of catholic mysticism?
The idea of the brahman means I don't have to believe in only Krishna to get something out of Dharma, but as christianity seek to lack this I feel shit out of luck.

>>14966232
Ok, thanks

>>14970350
Christianity has LOVE

>>14970350
Cradle Catholic here. I actually prefer the >emphasis on action in the west compared to >emphasis on knowledge in the east but otherwise agree that the christian exclusivism turns me off. I was into Advaita Vedanta for a while as well because of occultism interest and theosophical society influence but have since moved onto Yoga and Tantra and Gnosticism and Goetia and Theurgy.

You want the best of Christian mysticism? Ignore the orthodoxy. Eckhart was accused of heresy. Porete was condemned. I do see the dangers of the free spirit movement but there are also truths. Moreso than that, people like Guenon are nothing new. Look into prisca theologia, philosophia perennis, christian neoplatonism, christian hermeticism, christian cabala, and christian theosophy. It is all syncretic like hinduism. It is a shame that it is underground in the west...

Spiritual forces are real. And most spirits are deceivers. Even the great spirit. But as Nietzsche what is truth but a currency of lying metaphor defaced? What is the beautiful myth but a noble lie? As Asimov (Iirc) implies, perhaps a superintelligence must speak to us poetically?

>>14970504
>Cradle Catholic here. I actually prefer the >emphasis on action in the west compared to >emphasis on knowledge in the east but otherwise agree that the christian exclusivism turns me off. I was into Advaita Vedanta for a while as well because of occultism interest and theosophical society influence but have since moved onto Yoga and Tantra and Gnosticism and Goetia and Theurgy.
>You want the best of Christian mysticism? Ignore the orthodoxy. Eckhart was accused of heresy. Porete was condemned. I do see the dangers of the free spirit movement but there are also truths. Moreso than that, people like Guenon are nothing new. Look into prisca theologia, philosophia perennis, christian neoplatonism, christian hermeticism, christian cabala, and christian theosophy. It is all syncretic like hinduism. It is a shame that it is underground in the west...
>Spiritual forces are real. And most spirits are deceivers. Even the great spirit. But as Nietzsche what is truth but a currency of lying metaphor defaced? What is the beautiful myth but a noble lie? As Asimov (Iirc) implies, perhaps a superintelligence must speak to us poetically?
this is so cringe i don't evne know where to start...

>>14970504
>>14970484
>>14970350

Remember that everything is ultimately about love and forgiveness. You can get tangled up in dogmatic theology, but when you're on your death bed nothing matters except for surrender into the hands of the creator

>>14971565
I think christcuckism is a cope so it is unsurprising I receive a cringe. But I also feel any philosophy disconnected from life is worthless and my idea of a good life is not a one hour experience on weekends that involves priests wearing robes, living opulently, and raping children while spouting contradictory metaphysics cause muh bible... not that hindus are much better...


I do like some orthodoxy tho. Like desert fathers and augustine and bonaventure and de sales and de kempis and avila.

But better yet is Simone Weil! What a waifu...

>>14961413
To getaway of this trap, must see that catholic mysticism must you more charitable towards other people, be it on actions or - specially - in prayers.

>>14971657
> one hour experience on weekends
No faithful Christian believes that religion is a one hour experience on weekends.
>. But I also feel any philosophy disconnected from life is worthless
No Christian believes that religion is disconnected from life lol. If anything I usually hear of Christianity being too moral-based and not abstract enough.
> priests wearing robes,
What exactly is wrong with a robe lol
> living opulently,
In what world do you think the average Priest lives opulently? Most Churches are underfunded. If they wanted wealth there are better things to get a degree in than theology. Literally no one goes into the priesthood for the presteige you realize. This is not the middle ages.
> raping children
You know very well that the average Priest is nothing like how you vindicate them. You are more likely to be violated by a school teacher, and even that is absurd. If you were so committed to "metaphysics" as you claim though, you should be able to realize that moral actions does not take anything away from the metaphysics behind them. It is hypocritical, but not some sort of metaphysical error in the essence of the teachings.

I really can't help but see you describing something that you are not familiar with.

>>14971747
Catholic Church is incredibly wealthy. It also has covered up much sexual abuse. Not to mention basically being a mafia mystery cult. I am actually for Deleuzean horiztonal ontologies as I believe this prevents the hierarchical cuckoldry inherent to the priest as mediator or guru to initiate relation.


But in all honesty, I am what Chumbley would call dual-faith. I attend mass ocassionally with my devout mother and otherwise practice a wide variety of anthropotechnics as Sloterdijk would say that are esoteric according to the Hanegraafian definition though many would simply call them occult.


I think Hegel is superior to Advaita though I like both. Especially when viewed as an open system...

I try to be antifascist. Jesus the man is my man but I am a Nietzschean Christian -- if Christ was real he was the only true Christian and died on the cross.

My morals are complex and defined by complex systems theory and chaos.

Nondual tantra is quite similar to nondual hinduism. Except a more complex ethics.

I read a paper once about nonviolence being incompatible with ecology which makes me a warrior poet philosopher.

Sorry but the pope literally called traps nuclear weapons. He may be progressive but he's a fucking retard still. Benedict's theology was also pretty meh. Nothing rad either prog or trad.


You ever read Spengler? He is similar to Evola. But traces a cycle of yugas to civilizations. Civilization is linked to religion. We can't bring back the old but must be part of the new.

>>14972323
im not the one you are replying but jesus christ your idolatry is so cringe, you dont even seem to know what you are talking about

>>14972323
> I am actually for Deleuzean horiztonal ontologies as I believe this prevents the hierarchical cuckoldry inherent to the priest as mediator or guru to initiate relation.
It is very hard to take you seriously when you speak like that you realize. You are just throwing words around and haphazardly name dropping. I can't even understand what you mean by "hierarchical cuckoldry" and "horizontal ontology" in the context of Catholicism with responses that are just one sentence each.

>Catholic Church is incredibly wealthy.
That wasn't your original point though. You said the average priest was opulent. That's not not the case. They don't do it for the wealth , as should be obvious

>Nothing rad either prog or trad.
I don't see how being radical is any way a good thing. The Church is based on stability not radical meme ideologies that come and go.

>You ever read Spengler?
No although I intend to eventually.

> he's a fucking retard still.
Poor taste and not an argument, but even if it was the case, we don't worship the Pope or something. He ought to be good but it doesn't change the faith is it isn't.

>>14972373
Idolatry? I am not the one who identifies as Christian? Or at least not Christian alone. I am all and none of these layers. Something like an atman but also anatta and unknown to me whether equivalent with brahma in any real sense but I still gotta live in maya and all I see among Christians is unChristian behavior. The sacraments make no difference.

I went to a Catholic school. Do you know how many gays and lesbians we had? How many teacher and priest sex scandals? How many kids drinking and drugging and fucking while underaged?

The religion is a cringe cope IMO but more power to you if you think standing and kneeling and chanting on command is gonna help you make it in this life or the afterlife.

>>14972398
I fail to see how your experience is an argument about the entirety of the Catholic faith being a cope. Perhaps it is an argument against Catholic schools. Perhaps it is an argument against the manifestation of modern Catholicism. But certainly not the faith and its truth as a whole. You are making very generalized claims.

>all I see among Christians is unChristian behavior.
That's not an argument against the religion itself, but the people that make it up. Who knows how many people in your Catholic school even considered themselves to be Christian in private? Difficult to make these sort of claims as genuine arguments.

>>14972396
Priests are generally well-off. They certainly aren't starving. They hardly work.

Hierarchy implies a vertical relation. Viewing everyone equally is horizontal or flat ontology.

If christ is not my co-equal then I do not wish to follow him. If christ is my co-equal then why would I want to follow a church which places him and themselves above all?


Stability? Like meme pagan ideologies? Or jerking off while capitalism rapes and destroys the globe and Islam grows? You can preserve truth in new language. But that would assume you had truth in the first place...
>>14972418
Fair enough. I think we verge into no true scotsman land eventually. I also read the catechism and thought it was very uninspired so I don't attend.


Regardless the implication that all philosophies except catholicism are bad is IMO bad and I think it's all shades a grey ya know and I'm just searching for the light and I see darkness in the church but yaknow to each their own paths and so on so peace ya?

>>14972435
>If christ is my co-equal then why would I want to follow a church which places him and themselves above all?
Because he can help you? I sort of fail to see the premises for this. There is nothing wrong with being subordinate when it is the natural relation between two things.

>Like meme pagan ideologies? Or jerking off while capitalism rapes and destroys the globe and Islam grows?
I didn't imply any of that. Traditional Catholic theology is against Islam and liberal capitalism. The issue is not finding new stuff, its retaining control of what we once had.

>Regardless the implication that all philosophies except catholicism are bad is IMO bad and I think it's all shades a grey ya know and I'm just searching for the light and I see darkness in the church but yaknow to each their own paths and so on so peace ya?
I certainly don't hope I implied that all other philosophies are bad. I like reading about Hinduism and Nietzsche even though I don't agree with them. I just find myself returning the Church no matter what. I like the traditional mass, the lives of the saints, and the chants a lot. But I suppose you have your own path as well, even within Catholicism if that is what your will takes you to. Best of luck to you wherever you may go

>>14972398
I mean look at your attitude. I am this, I am that. I identify myself as this, I identify myself as that. Namedropping all the time. You are an idolater

>>14972788
I am just explaining alternative to your position. Christians will never have the last word in philosophy no matter how much they seethe because of the very skeptical nature of christianity. Have fun with your faith but it is philosophical suicide.

>>14972477
I don't believe subordination is ever useful.
>retaining control of what we once had
That time is over. I am interested in the future. I doubt there will be some revival.
>all philosophies
I hope you and I go to heaven but I have no faith except the belief that most christians want me in hellfire because I refuse to bow.
>you have your own path
Thank you. Ya know, funny story: I go to confession before mass sometimes and recently I told a priest I thought I was a heretic and he was just like say a rosary and follow the holy spirit and I was just thinking that's why I'm a heretic lol. Idk. Hope the holy spirit guides you too bro!

>>14961341
this pic

Ah yes, mysticism being true and universal means Christianity is mystical.
Godhead = Brahman = Father
Divine Human = Christ
Subjective replication of the Godhead within Divine Human = Atman = Holy Spirit.

Historical Christ is the Purusha, the purifying sacrifice through which creation is brought into being.

While prior mystics merely glimpsed the Divine Union, Jesus was able to submerge his will fully into the divine, entering a permanent state of mysticism. Whereas others saw nothing but Light, Jesus read the Divine Idea or Will of God from the perspective of the Almighty Himself as well.


Humanity's purpose? For one to ascend to the Father and become the second Christ.
The second Christ's purpose? To bring an end to this system and deliver divine judgement upon the earth.

The Gospel has allusions to mysticism if you look closely...
"The Kingdom of heaven is within you."
"You must be born of Water and of Spirit to enter the Kingdom."
"He who hears my word, living waters shall pour through his body."
"Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God."
"Ask, seek, and knock, for the Father loves to give his Spirit!"

>>14961108
/6agtph6

I am into Christian mysticism (especially the vaguely gnosticky sort) and see many parallels with Buddhism, especially the Pure Land traditions. My favorite Christian mystical text is "The Cloud of Unknowing."

>>14973064
Don't forget, samsara = Hell.

>>14962826
is english your forth or fifth language? and are the others straight up bushspeak? how fucking poorly written. Sure the position is valid, i dont really care; what I care about is how you subjected me to that awful fucking prose.

Every few years my University hosts an event where Buddhist monks come and make a sand mandala. The thing takes days to make and on the last day they do a big ceremony where they brush it away. During the ceremony this older lady turned to her daughter and remarked that the Buddhist must have to their chanting from Christians because her mother would chant "JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS" when she would pray. I just wanted to share the story.

>>14972977
What made me become a christian was precisely its metaphysics, its mythopoesis and Christ as the Logos-Incarnated. I love platonism as well and they are the only traditions worth dedicating your whole life studying. Hinduism is cool but still inferior to those. I am afraid you are completely clueless about Christianity though.

>>14961302
>this guy talks about something called the "divine darkness"
I ve been reading lately "the orthodox way" by Kallistos Ware. He talks about the divine darkness and even though the book is aimed towards orthodox christians, I believe you can get some thing out of it, since he explains the divine darkness you just mentioned. He also frames religiion in a way that does not scare me personally, where instead of having faith and following 100% the dogma, you can and should question beliefs. He mentions in the book that only an informed man can really believe ( I am paraphrasing here).

>>14973064
Godhead = Brahman = Father
Divine Human = Christ
Subjective replication of the Godhead within Divine Human = Atman = Holy Spirit.
couldn't be more wrong
the godhead is not the father,
christ is not ''divine human''

i know purusha means both the spiritual principle and a self-sacrificing god, but christ does not die


Humanity's purpose? For one to ascend to the Father and become the second Christ.
wrong

>>14961108
Yeah, I actually became a Christian partly because I got irritated at pagan mysticism like Buddhism. The mundane language of Christianity actually makes it better in my opinion; unlike the pagans the Christians make the mysteries open to even the most literal thinkers (I'm on the spectrum, so cryptic language is anathema to me anyway). But the other religions just hate mystical understanding when it's not the people on "their team" that have it, hence the obscurantism, which is a shame, because proper spirituality should be for everyone, not just for a select few.

Reminder to not pursue mysticism if you don't already lead a faithful life and to especially avoid pursuing it if you are currently living sinfully.
Studying these things while in such a state is very dangerous and at best will lead you to a very painful awareness of the fact that you have transgressed the law of the omnipotent God. At worst you may fall into insanity. This is not to say that trying to deepen your relationship with God is for only a select few, but that you can't jump into it in an afternoon, or take it lightly as some object of curiosity.

>>14970074
>Synergia

I'm not that familiar with Orthodox mysticism, but do you mean Theosis here?

The end goal of Orthodoxy might not be, but in the Catholic tradition this idea of full reintegration of the will has been proposed by different writers (with different levels of orthodoxy)

To be frank I'm not exactly certain where Mother Church officially draws the line between annhiliation and divinisation with free will, but certainly the more mystics you read, the more blurry it seems.

If there are any good Orthodox authors on this subject please feel free to recommend some, I know next to nothing about Orthodox mysticism

>>14962978
I do as well.

>>14963001
I pity your archaic language and poor proofing.

>>14963877
No, the gospel of John was written to combat the gnostic thought. As well as the letters of 1,2, and 3rd John.

>>14973191
I would encourage a study of german idealists and pomo frogs but to each their own...

>>14970350
>But It doesn't help me because frankly i just can't help believing that Jesus was something besides a incredibly wise, possibly divinely inspired man.

Mysticism is advance material intended for believers, I'm not certain it's a good place to look for conversion

>my main interactions with Christianity at that point had been schizos screaming at me in youtube comments about how I was the devil, so I wanted to stay as far away as possible.

This is an unfortunate consequence of Dawkins-tier stuff, where the most insane snake-handling protestants were depicted as mainstream. Traditionalist Catholicism and Orthodoxy are quite different beasts

> I really wish I was just born into a catholic family so that I could just accept this as my path and move forward

Then you'd be like the millions of people who just accept it without thinking. At least this way you're actually THINKING about Catholicism.

>So what am I supposed to get out of catholic mysticism?

Experiencing existence as humans were intended to

Sounds like you might need some different material. Don't focus on desperately finding something to allow you to believe this, just read/watch and relax. Try:

Fulton Sheen
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAW2I0pTlsw

Bl. Sheen was extremely based, he had a hit TV show in the 50s that was quite popular. Not everything he talks about is religious, pretty much all of his content is gold, so pick a topic you like and see what you think

>Mere Christianity (C.S. Lewis)

Introductory book on Christianity by the (Anglican) Narnia author, based on some radio talks he did during the War. It's Christianity explained well with a skeptical audience in mind, it's a great read, I'd highly recommend it in your case.

Take those two as a very gentle intro to Catholicism. Bear in mind that although you don't believe, your mind is being turned towards it nonetheless. Maybe that means something or maybe not, just interesting to note.

>>14970504
>You want the best of Christian mysticism? Ignore the orthodoxy

As someone who is a fan of Porete and the Sister Catherine Treatise, I'm not sure I'd agree with just ignoring orthodoxy - sometimes books were condemned for good reason.

One of the main reasons Porete was condemned, for example, was the idea that someone who has reunified with God does not need to stick to morality/tradition etc

Now, strictly speaking this is illogical because if you're doing the Will of God, then presumably his Will would also follow his doctrine, so the point would be moot.

The danger here is
>person reads book without much spiritual experience
>prays a bit and decides they've achieved theosis/divinisation, either through self-delusion or a trick of the devil (which all mystics caution against strenuously)
>decides that now they're saved so they can do whatever they want, goes out and commits lots of sins
>destroys soul in process

THAT's more the issue. Same with Molinos, you could argue that he was totally orthodox (and even the Pope's own theologian at the time approved his Guide), but the primary concern was that it would fuck people over who didn't fully understand it.

Seen in the context of broader doctrine, you can parse out the real meaning of what's being described, but the catechism should be used a a guiding light for this kind of stuff, otherwise it's easy to get lost in "I'm smarter than all those sheep lmao"

That having been said, I'm aware that a lot of the great mystics were tried for heresy, so sometimes the best work pushes the bounds of orthodoxy, I'm just saying not to throw caution to the wind on the assumption that the Church don't really get it

>>14971668
Sort of, it's the debate between being totally passive (i.e. what the Jesuits said Molinos was proposing, a "lifeless doll"), vs. activity

This debate also occurred during the Reformation, i.e. if you're saved by Faith alone then why bother doing anything?

It's a complex question, I definitely don't have enough knowledge to parse it out

>>14964089
Not always

A lot of it up to John Scottus Eriugena had a neoplatonic character, but not as much after him. Gnostic mysticism hasn't been a feature in the church since the Cathars, and even then that was short-lived.

Really since the 14th Century (in particular), it's been much more focused on Contemplative mysticism. The ritual or hierarchy-based approaches have not really been a feature for a millenium or so (this became the domain of secular groups of mainly protestants, particularly from the 18thC onwards)

>>14962955
>Well of the reasons Christians meditate is so that we can give ear to good spirits and to in general notice the world of spirits more

Different guy here, this is not correct.

Meditation in the Christian sense should increase your understanding a faith (in the Discursive phase) and then allow God to act on you internally (in the Contemplative phase)

Spirits of any kind are not relevant to the process

>>14973424
>One reunified with God need not stick to tradition/morality and this is of course incorrect.
Yeah, but then again morality has a double meaning. It can mean what God views as good/bad and what humans view as good/bad. If one's argument is that morality as promulgated by the church, the state, or people in general is just human morality, I would argue that nobody ever had to care about it in the first place. All that matters is what God approves or disapproves.

>>14973424
>>14973371
Good posts

>>14973371
For me it was dealing with a perennial catholic who finally made me realize that the path could offer a lot.
Being able to see the religion as something more than a doomsday cult which preached horrible torture for everyone who wasn't a part of it. Becauas honestly Christians don't do a good job as selling it as anything more that this.

I don't know. I don't think some ideas of catholicism I will ever be able to reconcile with the spiritual beliefs I have gain through experience, but the idea of a community based around surrender and meditation on the godhead is something that you simply can't find in the US studying eastern religions (bits and pieces sure but you're dealing with too many who have false ideas).

>Mysticism is advance material intended for believers, I'm not certain it's a good place to look for conversion
I'm not exactly looking for conversion though, I will never be able to leave behind my perennial beliefs and aren't looking for a church which tells me what I can and can't believe. I'm looking for direct experience connecting with the godhead.
My meditation and prayers sessions these days already get so intense that some idea of needing to increase that is the opposite of what I want. I'll have days which after prayer I'll spend thirty minutes lying on the floor almost unable to move it's so intense.

I want to connect to traditions around me, we are born where we are born for a reason I believe.
Still it is hard, I have read bits and pieces of "Mere Christianity", I always liked that Lewis also studied and greatly respected hindu scriptures. Theres some quote about him saying something like: "If you cant be a Christian I implore you to be a Hindu."
Thanks for the post though, send a prayer my direction brother if it's not too much to ask for.

>>14973573
>Yeah, but then again morality has a double meaning. It can mean what God views as good/bad and what humans view as good/bad

A reasonable point, however the morality of God should be the morality of the Church. This is the advantage of having 2000 years of continuous tradition that has tested every bit of the morality ruthlessly to establish the truth, compared to Pastor Bob's Salvation Shack where development of thought goes back to one man's "here's what I think".

Another way to think about this is that if the moral theology reasoned by Church thinkers for the past 2000 years is wrong or in some way contrary to morality as intended by God (i.e. that we have created a human morality and assumed it is the same as Divine morality), then it stands to reason that no one would attain this state of union anyway. I would argue that various experiences and writings of Saints, and phenomena like the incorruptability of different saints bodies, are intended as signs that the teachings and techniques of the Church are at least sufficiently on the right track to attain mystical union or closeness with the Divine, however this of course could be debated.

> All that matters is what God approves or disapproves.

Correct, this is the ultimate point.

>>14973295
Sure but if you're not willing to go astray and to go insane over seeking for God then are you even worthy of God? Why do selfish people want something out of god so much? They follow God because they don't want to be smashed by God. They are cowards and they don't even try to understand God.

>>14961108
Read Palamas

>>14973674
>I'm not exactly looking for conversion though, I will never be able to leave behind my perennial beliefs and aren't looking for a church which tells me what I can and can't believe. I'm looking for direct experience connecting with the godhead.

This is what I mean by conversion, not signing the paperwork in your local Catholic church. You're looking for more direct experience of the Divine, ultimately this is what the Church aims to offer, even if it's not always obvious these days

> the idea of a community based around surrender and meditation on the godhead is something that you simply can't find in the US studying eastern religions

Bear in mind even within the Church, the kind of people really interested in deep theological thought are the exception rather than the rule, but it does provide structures (e.g. like the Carmelite or Carthusian orders) where people devote their lives to exactly that. Just mean you might have to hunt around for what you're looking for

>My meditation and prayers sessions these days already get so intense that some idea of needing to increase that is the opposite of what I want. I'll have days which after prayer I'll spend thirty minutes lying on the floor almost unable to move it's so intense.

Good, maybe look for a spiritual director or a mentor irl to help guide you here. I wish I had done it years ago.

>I want to connect to traditions around me, we are born where we are born for a reason I believe.

Where (roughly) do you live?

If people are looking for something deeper (rather than reading a book, they want to experience or feel it), I would highly suggest attending a Tridentine mass. It really is the pinnacle of Western religious ceremony, and for a lot of people it plugs a gap that previously only Eastern ceremony did.

I think this gives a nice flavour of what it should be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV8ge-qi0l0

>Thanks for the post though, send a prayer my direction brother if it's not too much to ask for.

Of course, I hope you find what you're looking for. Keep studying scriptures from all traditions, it's not exactly Mother Church-approved but I found it helped me a lot to figure out a direction

>>14973471
How can you know what you said and then disagree with me? You just don't notice how many angels are around and how they love God and commune with God.

>>14973742
God bless you

>>14973745
I'm sure they do, but whether or not you commune with them has no bearing on your spiritual development

The process of attaining union with God can be helped by angels interceding to grant understanding, sure, but ultimately the process involves purgation and then illumination from God directly. The latter is the 'point' of Christian meditation, not spirits.

>>14973771
You only expressed a higher and more direct part of it where we are to cast out even the Saints of which none of you do or you wouldn't be so clingy to your religion. Thinking that the Angels play nearly no role is to deny God's Providence and his church. God pours himself out in each of our capacities. He fills us overflowing and it drips down to others and they overfill over to others and ect. That's one of the reasons pseudo-Dionysus talked about an hierarchy. Sometimes God can only reach us through lesser things though he seeks for us to ever approach nearer. God's kingdom is a kingdom of Souls. To say that only God's will is, is an error. There is no kingdom of God if there is only God.

>>14973811
>You only expressed a higher and more direct part of it

Yes, this is a thread about Christian Mysticism, which is the higher part of Christianity.

>where we are to cast out even the Saints

How exactly do you 'cast out' a saint? And why would you do such a thing?

Saints can be asked for intercession, but similar to angels, they are not directly involved in the process of divine union, which is between you and God.

>Thinking that the Angels play nearly no role is to deny God's Providence and his church

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. You seem to think I'm saying angels have no purpose whatsoever, which I am not (otherwise the Annunciation would have been pointless). I am arguing specifically that the point of Meditation is to commune with God, not other spirits, which was your original point.

Contemplative mysticism is a process between you and the Divine. That's not to say it can't be HELPED by outside powers, but it's a conversation between you and God at the end of the day.

>Sometimes God can only reach us through lesser things though he seeks for us to ever approach nearer

Yes, this is what I'm saying, in that other elements can help if God necessitates (such as a man on the street introducing you to Catholicism, or an angel granting a vision), but ultimately the meat of Contemplation is God working on you internally.

Hence, you meditate for increased clarity and closeness to God, rather than to give ear to spirits, which was your original point

>>14961420
I disagree, that's me.

I'm going to get a little bit ranty because I have a coffee headache.
I think this back-and-forth is kind of silly. I was just describing to you what it is to be a spirit. how can you meditate and say you're a Mystic but not notice the spiritual world! don't cast out the Saints then! and then call them God and then see how far you progressed in knowing god. I'm sure that you would suggest to me that I should go to church and participate in their religious ceremonies so I can know God better. maybe you will recommend to me someone who is lower than me and that I should submit to them. what is the point of following religious rules if you only know the description of it but you don't even understand why it was said or the wisdom of it?

>>14973224
thanks i'll check it out.

>>14962826
You're basically a nihilist. Please leave.

>>14961341
>uses metaphysics as a metric to gauge politics
this is unironically correct though

>>14962826
Morality shouldn't be the endgame for a true Christian. That doesn't mean a Christian shouldn't be moral or be mindful of their actions, but being united in Christ is the endgame because sin ultimately prevents us from any genuine moral actions.

>>14973295
>Studying these things while in such a state is very dangerous and at best will lead you to a very painful awareness of the fact that you have transgressed the law of the omnipotent God. At worst you may fall into insanity.
Very much this.

>>14974538
>>14973295
Insanity is most unlikely, it is more likely that you'll fall victim to self-delusion or be tricked by the devil into wasting your time if you don't study under someone who knows what they're doing

>>14974606
Blessed are the pure in heart because they will see God. You have no need of a teacher. Looks like the Bible already disproved the requirement of a guru. They can be useful and I know how much authoritarians love to boss each other around. But it's not required.

I remember a certain authoritarian who wanted to test a saint and so he told her to clean the closet out with her mouth so she licked up all the cobwebs and spiders. I prefer not to have to do that.

https://youtu.be/BwXpVWD_zGE

I found this fascinating -coming from a protestant background. The idea of monastacism, nuns; their hiddenness, how they have their own chapel built into the side of the church with a veil that keeps them out of the public eye, and how their lives revolve around endless devotion in a peaceful environment.

Hermit monks, habits, flashy robes with lace, all of it is very foreign to my prot-evangelical mind.

>>14970350
One thing very simple thing the church does is force people to reveal how shitty they are. It's tough to hide your shittiness in the christian world because it's pretty explicit about how one should act, confess, and conduct themselves.
This can drive people away, but once you see how the sacraments force people to reveal their hypocrisy it will help solidify your faith.

>>14970504
>Cradle Catholic here.
>I was into Advaita Vedanta for a while as well because of occultism interest and theosophical society influence but have since moved onto Yoga and Tantra and Gnosticism and Goetia and Theurgy.

Based!
https://youtu.be/t3p78ZDAPiM

>>14973674
>I will never be able to leave behind my perennial beliefs
>spiritual beliefs I have gain through experience
so you care more about the subjective garbage you reached in a clearly deluded state than letting God himself guide you towards the truth?

>>14975624
Are you calling "subjective garbage" what God gave to him? Only atheists have to believe that God is not here present with us. only staunch traditionalist have to believe that only their own traditions is what God will teach everyone. I wonder why the religious folks often hated the prophets. There is a real danger in religious people persecuting God, as jesus plainly experienced.

>>14975650
>Are you calling "subjective garbage" what God gave to him?
I'm saying that this garbage was given to him by demons when he willingly denied God's help in ridding him of his spiritual delusions. God allowing it to happen does not indicate approval. Why not just pray to God and ask him to lead you to the truth? Why outright deny even the possibility that your "perennial beliefs gained through spirituality" might be completely wrong?
>only staunch traditionalist
"staunch traditionalist" as in who just follows the religion as it was practiced until syncretists infiltrated and subervted it with their new-age nonsense?
>as jesus plainly experienced
How do you know what Christ experienced when you freely pick and choose which parts of His message you want to follow? Why was this part also not an invention by the evil church?

>>14975733
I have prayed to God daily to lead me to truth. I haven't realized these things through subjective experience or drug trips, but through wise words of realized beings.
I'm far too busy to argue any of this with you today though.
I will keep praying to God and let him lead me to truth.

>>14975733
You cannot account for all of our experiences, only your own. There are many valid ways to seek God. Everyone's obsession to walk the well defined path naturally make some of us look other places. Especially when we see over and over the worst of our brothers condemning the best. God blessed me with being an outcast. I have personality traits similar to what a prophet would have. Don't expect people like me to ever be satisfied with what God has plainly given to us. I want as much as I can get from God. So I tend to discard the crude elements of Christianity and look for the best souls within Christianity. I want communion with the Saints close to God, not with the masses that are very content with their extroverted community and set religious traditions. It's good for them but not for all of us. You underestimate my faith in God.

>>14975779
>I want communion with the Saints close to God
What makes you think you are worthy of being even remotely close to the Saints? Show me a single saint who would agree with your delusional sentiment stated here:
>not with the masses that are very content with their extroverted community and set religious traditions

>>14975750
>I have prayed to God daily to lead me to truth. I haven't realized these things through subjective experience or drug trips, but through wise words of realized beings.
>I'm far too busy to argue any of this with you today though.
>I will keep praying to God and let him lead me to truth.

>>14975779
>You cannot account for all of our experiences, only your own. There are many valid ways to seek God. Everyone's obsession to walk the well defined path naturally make some of us look other places. Especially when we see over and over the worst of our brothers condemning the best. God blessed me with being an outcast. I have personality traits similar to what a prophet would have. Don't expect people like me to ever be satisfied with what God has plainly given to us. I want as much as I can get from God. So I tend to discard the crude elements of Christianity and look for the best souls within Christianity. I want communion with the Saints close to God, not with the masses that are very content with their extroverted community and set religious traditions. It's good for them but not for all of us. You underestimate my faith in God.

>>14975750
>wise words of realized beings
what are these "realized beings"? never heard this terminology.
>I will keep praying to God
an idol of "ganesh" or "buddha" isn't God.

>>14974617
>You have no need of a teacher.
omg this! the apostles didn't need a frickin teacher to guide them they knew what they were doing just fine!

>>14975788
How about the ones that are more concerned with God than with his Souls? I can't help that God cursed me with a high level of anxiety. But that made me get closer to him. Reading books about God is far more Fellowship to me than is going to building and eatting Bread and Wine. I prefer to worship God in private. I would be a monk in a monastery if I actually thought that their way of life wasn't totally crucified from what it should be.

>>14975827
>I would be a monk in a monastery
lmao no wouldn't be. you would get thrown out immediately for trying to worship idols in a monastery.

>>14975815
Next time you try refuting me make sure that I wasn't quoting the Bible, because you just tried to refute the Bible.

>>14975827
>I prefer to
Who cares what you "subjectively" prefer to do? God clearly established proper ways of worshipping him communally for us ordinary people. Who are you to go against that?

>>14975831
If my brothers knew God and had a community like the early Christian Church, I would love to be there. But you're right I would be an outcast just like all the prophets were. I don't mind. I prefer God over men.

>>14975832
so much this omg! i just hate how these traditionalists try to say i need a teacher! i am a gifted prophet myself! i need no man to tell me what to do!

>>14975839
God said that he loves me. Does a husband care about what his wife wants or thinks? I have a great Liberty that God has given me and no one will take it away.

>>14975750
>>14975779
>>14975650
>>14975827
>>14975851
>>14975841

t. pic related

>>14975846
I don't mind that you troll me but I can't take what you say seriously. I cannot expect people to understand me as God wishes to curse me with loneliness because he's jealous.

>>14975851
>Does a husband care about what his wife wants or thinks?
why yes he does, that is why he should allow her to subjectively comfort herself with other men.

>>14975858
Hahaha that's funny. But there's a big difference in trying on different dresses and Jewelry in order to see what might he take most delight in... And in me even having the ability to escape from this Castle-prison where no one but he and I dwell, much less so me encountering a demon named Tyrone.

>>14975897
Chaste and breadpilled