/lit/ - Literature

>>14946824
Orthobro Christian here.

>is Hell forever?
The lake of fire at the final judgement is forever. But there might be hope for those in the underworld, prior to the final judgment, since Christ went there and spread the gospel already. "1 Peter 3:19–20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
We don't know, only God knows.
But everyone will encounter the presence of God in the afterlife, to varying degrees.... Those who are friends of the triune God and lived virtuously will experience freedom and joy. While those who worshiped idols and preferred their sin and lusts will despair and feel shame in his presence, like a man who threw away his treasures and children in exchange for dung.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
virtuous pagans get judged by the moral law written in their hearts, they have a chance. yes, do not fear because our God is merciful, see Romans 2:15

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven. Original sin doesn't impose moral guilt on us, it just means we are born in a fallen world and have certain "predispositions" towards sin, but we are not born damned.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
there's no reason to believe they are made in the image of God (have souls and moral reason) so they should not be seen as equal to man.

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Only God knows.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is beyond and above nature, he is the author of the natural laws. By understanding nature you will understand some of God's creative energies, but don't forget this world is fallen so distortions and confusions will exist...

>does God own humankin?
"No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you." John 15:15

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Sinners should be objective with themselves which means repenting and submitting to God, anything less is dishonest.

>>14946824
>>is Hell forever?
Yes
>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
All people go to hell
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Yes, but they all go to hell for being pagan
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
It's the only one
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
No, he made one and stopped
>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
He is all
>>does God own humankind?
Yes
>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Yes, they will repay him in hell

>>14946912
That even a single soul goes to hell makes god evil.
For God freely chose for that soul to exist. Knowing that its choices would lead to eternal damnation.
An eternal damnation god overlooked when he chose for this soul to be.

>>14946991
>Knowing that its choices would lead to eternal damnation.
The choices free-agents make don't transfer to their creator. Knowledge of X doesn't make him responsible. You were debunked yesterday by a few people already.

>>14947025
it's literally the trolley problem but god being the fuck who started the trolley that would have been stationary if he hadn't, a trolley that didn't have to exist at all, since god is omnipotent and absolutely free in all his actualization.
THE SOUL DIDN'T HAVE TO EXIST THIS ISN'T A QUESTION OF SOUL'S FREE WILL BUT GOD'S FREEDOM AND OMNISCIENCVE IN EVERY CREATION

>>14946922
>It's the only one
OP probably didn't mean the best of all worlds as in Everett's interpretation of QM, but as in Leibniz, "the best of all possible worlds".

>>14947056
>not a question of free-will
You keep saying this because free-will undermines your argument. You want God's foreknowledge-of-events to undermine free-will but it doesn't. Free-will always prevents our actions and their "consequences" from tainting God's moral status. God created the world and it was good and man is free. We are not robots. Part of the price of freedom is risk, and hell is something we do to ourselves by our own choices. No problems here.

>Trolley problem
technically all the people on the track who sinned deserve to be run over. So it's not much of a problem after all.

>but I'd rather not exist than go to hell!!!
Sure, but your preferences don't make God evil.

>THE SOUL DIDN'T HAVE TO EXIST
God knows better than you.

>>14947096
It's higher-order cause.
None of God's creations are necessary creations.
Because this undermines God's absolute freedom and omnipotence.
Therefore god freely, independently, willingly, without need to do so, creates every soul, chooses for it to be EX NIHILO.

And if he creates every soul for some purpose then he even more so is evil to punish this soul eternally for fulfilling their purpose, and if you say the damnation itself is good and has purpose as a thing in itself you now have a threefold evil "god".

>>14947096
It's higher-order cause.
None of God's creations are necessary creations.
Because this undermines God's absolute freedom and omnipotence.
Therefore god freely, independently, willingly, without need to do so, creates every soul, chooses for it to be EX NIHILO.
And if he creates every soul for some purpose then he even more so is evil to punish this soul eternally for fulfilling their purpose, and if you say the damnation itself is good and has purpose as a thing in itself you now have a threefold evil "god".

If however, as I believe, every soul freely choses to drink of the river of forgetfulness, and to descend into Time, then you are entirely correct that God isn't at fault for that soul's choices.

>>14947122
>/x/ is the source of all the le demiurge Gnostic schizoposters
Well at least now I know.

>>14947144
it was a parody of gnosticism just as >>14947144
is a parody of them, Christians are just blind Gnostics. Luckily, for all souls, your evil god is not real.

>>14947122
>Therefore god freely, independently, willingly, without need to do so, creates every soul, chooses for it to be EX NIHILO.
Correct.

>And if he creates every soul for some purpose then he even more so is evil to punish this soul eternally for fulfilling their purpose
>and if you say the damnation itself is good and has purpose as a thing in itself you now have a threefold evil "god".
You keep repeating the same thing and it's still wrong. There's nothing evil about creating free-agents who have a moral compass and can choose between right and wrong.

>>14947156
>It's evil to dispense fair and righteous justice on free-agents
No. Never.

>>14946824
Salafi Muslim here.
>>is Hell forever?
The majority position is yes, but I follow the minority opinion.
>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Most people will spend some time in Hell, but Islam teaches that one can be entered into Hell for a time, and be taken out after.
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
It depends on whether they adhered to their polytheism and immorality because of ignorance or choice. They might, as the Prophet (pbuh) once mentioned, receive a second chance and a new test on the Day of Judgement.
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven.
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They have something akin to a soul, and they will be judged alongside man and jinn on the Day of Judgement.
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
For it's purpose, which is to test life, yeah.
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Most likely yes, but they would all be perfect for their purpose.
>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Studying Gods word is equal to studying God. Nature is to remember Him, and to return to Him.
>>does God own humankind?
Yes.
>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
No, everyone owes Him, but their sins are first and foremost against their own selves.

>>14947164
1. The Agent chooses for that evil future to be.
2. God chooses for that agent to be (knowing what future it will freely CHOOSE).
3. God chose for that future to be.
>>14947168
not what I'm saying, the soul should be punished you dumb cunt, God should just also be punished for creating it.

Unbaptised Orthodox Christian
>is Hell forever?
I'm not sure, because the lake of fire may or may not extinguish souls after a certain point. I need to research it more. There are some who have been known to be saved from Hades though.
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Not knowable
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Probably
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Most likely Heaven
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Not eternal souls at least, we are their stewards
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Well it's a fallen world so not exactly.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Not that we know of
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is above the laws of nature but he is bound to his own nature. It is possible to know God better through studying things like math imo because that is part of the uncreated logoi.
>does God own humankin?
"Own" is an odd way of putting it, you could say God ultimately owns everything but we have total agency
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
A better way of thinking about it is that sin is a strain in your relationship with God

>>14946922
>Animals and plants go to Hell for being pagan
I have to admit, I giggled

>>14947186
>God should just also be punished for creating it.
There's nothing evil about the pure act of creating a soul for man.
So he can't be punished for that act itself. You're not making any sense now.

The punishment and attribution of evil depends on man's actions, and each man gets what he deserves. So the math checks out. Go find a new argument this one is beyond dead.

Whether they don't exist or whether they do exist, man gets what he deserves. So where is your attribution of "evil" coming from? Nowhere.

>>14947196
>be god
>hm if I create this soul she will kill millions
>but if i instead create this soul those millions won't die
>I know! I create the evil future!
>i am good

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
Yes.

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
The vast majority go to hell.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell.

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
If they die before birth in a Christian country, then they go to Heaven. Otherwise, they go to Hell.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They don't have souls.

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Yes.

>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
It's possible, but that's not something we can know.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them?
He dictates them.

>Is studying nature equal to studying God?
No, it's equivalent to studying His design.

>does God own humankin?
Yes.

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Not sure what you mean by that.

>>14947174
>They might, as the Prophet (pbuh) once mentioned, receive a second chance and a new test on the Day of Judgement.
You got a source for this, akhi? Not trying to undermine you, just curious as your brother in faith

>>14947199
>be god
This is part of your problem, you're trying to imagine a non-sense scenario. As if you know better than God in who should exist and who shouldn't...

>this soul will kill millions
Yes and she will get what she deserves.

>God is good
Yes because neither the act of creating a soul is evil, nor is distributing righteous judgement upon it evil.

You might want to use another term, like "I'd prefer God not to create certain souls..." and then try to argue why. But attributing evil to Him is dishonest or just lazy thinking on your part.

>>14947211
>Yes because neither the act of creating a soul is evil, nor is distributing righteous judgement upon it evil.
This kills the gnostics argument.

>>14947211
FREE VOLITION IN EVERY CREATION
how hard is this for you to understand you heretic, god could infinitely replace every soul with another with whom he foresees a different future.
But God doesn't, he willed for Satan to be knowing what Satan would freely choose, this God is not good.

>>14947221
>, he willed for Satan to be knowing what Satan would freely choose
>Satan would freely choose
>Satan freely chooses therefore God is the bad guy
Give it a rest, your argument fell apart already

>>14947227
If I give a suicidal man a gun I am evil.

>>14946824
American Protestant
>is Hell forever?
It would be unwise to assume otherwise, I think.
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Unknowable
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
The short answer is: it depends, but they would have been better of being Christian in all circumstances.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven, probably
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Probably not, certainly not in the same way humans do.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
The short answer is no. The real answer is yes.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
It's certainly not beyond His power to have created "other worlds", in which case the answer above still applies to them.
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
He is above the laws of nature but we can get some idea of the divine nature by studying nature.
>does God own humankind?
It depends in what you mean by "own". He is our father.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
This is question is so poorly formed I can't answer it.

>>14947215
n-no God can't dispense judgment on the basis of my freely chosen actions, the soothing visions that I get from....somewhere....tell me that's not true! It's just a bunch of kike ox herders projecting!

And I should answer this as a non-abrahamic.

Hi anons of /lit/, if you happen to be a Christian, Jewish, a muslim or if you believe in any other abrahamic religion I'm interested in your religious views about the following:
>is Hell forever?
no
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
yes, both
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
virtue transcends empty confessions of faith
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
not to hell
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
most of them they have irrational soul, meaning their have no self-reflection; but most of are still under Man in the spiritual hierarchy, so while they should be treated with rdignity espect they are our inferiors especially the one's that are our food sources.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
this is the only possible world
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
no, but there has been an infinity of cycles before this universal year, and will be after it
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God as Nous dictates them, the Ineffable One is beyond them and yet they are his light
>does God own humankin?
God is the divine anthropos
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
sin injures reality itself, thus in an ineffable way we harm God, as much as each soul is an "echo of God". A piece of Dionysus heavenly body.

>>14947254
>most of them they have irrational soul, meaning their have no self-reflection; but most of are still under Man in the spiritual hierarchy, so while they should be treated with rdignity espect they are our inferiors especially the one's that are our food sources.
and that's for writing without coffee

>>14946991
This is one uppity pot.

But no, God is good, evil is only allowed for the sake of his creatures. Even the damned soul, condemned to its own finitude, is better off existing than not.

>>14947242
>>14947234
If I give an absolutely evil future life, I am evil.
Everything that will be doomed to eternal Tartarus is absolutely evil, therefore God is evil.

>>14947278
then eternal damnation is evil, if all history serves a greater purpose of good, then the players in that symphony can't be punished forever for fulfilling a good. Even if they fulfill that good unknowingly.

>>14947280
>If I give an absolutely evil future life
The future is absolutely bright and good. God triumphs over evil my friend.

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. - Romans 14:11-12

When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28

>>14947297
>>14947287
All of this is against contradictions in Orthodoxy and Catholicism, not whether the bible can be interpreted as divine.
>He will again have compassion on us, And will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins Into the depths of the sea.
>For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
>“Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

but this is not what they teach

>>14947319
Outside it's Catholic / Orthodox tradition the reader is liable to fall into heresies, delusions and subjective speculation.

>>14947234
Eh I would argue that if you knew he was suicidal you are at least partly at fault if he kills himself. Or at the very least grossly incompetent or negligent

>>14947205
God cares about countries?

>>14947348
Basically this^
But some Prots are okay, like Kierkgaard

>>14947348
yes, exactly, and Catholic/Orthodox dogma taken to its logical extremes makes their God evil. Therefore the bible and your church is not wholly divinely inspired. Because God is Good.

>>14947211
>'Yes because neither the act of creating a soul is evil, nor is distributing righteous judgement upon it evil.'
Based.

>>14947174
They have something akin to a soul, and they will be judged alongside man and jinn on the Day of Judgement.
So there are malevolent plants and benevolent ones? Which plant (in yoir own opinion) is worthy of hell?

>>14947278
>even the damned soul is better off existing than not
So if that soul will burn forever in hell at least they got to exist on Earth? I’m calling bullshit. A guy who lives a shitty life on Earth and is also an asshole or just not Christian (I never understood why this would be such a problem to a higher power) so he burns for hell is not better off than if he just didn’t exist. Sure sure God knows better, but that’s not an actual answer. I just can’t buy all of this. It seems like most religious thinking is just mental gymnastics to the extreme.

>>14947387
christian* religious thinking
my friend

>>14947096
>God knows better than you.
there you go. the all-encompassing daddy complex of christianity. something doesn't make sense? daddy knows better than you

>>14947382
>>'Yes because neither the act of creating a soul is evil, nor is distributing righteous judgement upon it evil.'
double based

>>14947227
>he willed for Satan to be knowing what Satan would freely choose
how can there be a 'free' choice when God already knows what he will do you fucking brainlet

ITT the demiurge is trying to convince you you deserve to be in his chicken-shit version of reality.

I'm about to BTFO all of you yahwehcucks. Watch this.

The truly transcendent God is boundless and alien. (S)he does not create the world according to preexisting forms, or logic, but is the unbegotten source of everything. In other words, God does not merely actualize a possible world, but decides what possible worlds there are. If this is true, God did not just create beings with free will, and the deontic properties of free will, but also the space of possible actions that beings with free will could take. God perhaps did not create evil, but he created the possibility of evil. Limiting modal space is not equivalent to constraining entities because clearly there is already a limit to what is possible.

Here is your bind then: (1) Either Yaweh created the possibility of evil and is thus responsible for it or (2) Yaweh doesn't choose what is possible at all, and is therefore cucked and limited by logic and preexisting forms like the platonic demiurge.

>>14947441
Because the choice ultimately belongs to the agent making it?? Simply knowing an agent will choose X doesn't make you responsible for it morally.

>>14947484
>(S)he
Hard pass.

>>14947486
kek, even non-existence can't protect wicked future sinners from getting fair and righteous justice.
Based God.

>>14947486
since god is omniscient, for human he creates he knows exactly what he/she will do from the moment of creation to the end of the world. so he knew that little jimmy would become a serial killer and a rapist who will burn forever in hell BUT HE STILL FUCKING CREATED HIM.
inject some thinking serum into that cavity you call a skull

>>14947484
Go away Gnostic.
This is a battlle between 'Platonism' and erroneous Abrahamics.

This debate makes your god evil too, since he caused your evil Demiurge he is then Evil, you dumb cunt. You've just move the goal posts and made God even more terrible.

>>14947507
>BUT HE STILL FUCKING CREATED HIM.
Based. Because God loves all people and wants all to come to truth and repent. He's simply giving them all the same fair and righteous freedom, to pick heaven or to pick hell.

>>14947514

>>14946991
Then sending a single soul to heaven makes God good

>>14947506
>even non-existence can't protect wicked future sinners from getting fair and righteous justice.
Gnostics and Rapists and Platonists (both existent and non-existent) are shitting their pants.
Allah is based.

>>14947520
Yes, sure, but also evil. I'm not calling your god absolutely evil, only denying his absolute Good.

>>14947518
>hurr God should only create perfect saints
No he creates

>>14947525
>God earns and loses goodness by how many people he sends to hell or heaven
lmao is this the power of Platonism / Gnosticism?

>>14947532

>>14946824
yes, hell, limbo, limbo or hell idr, no souls but agency, no, no, yes yes, lol, no

>>14947525
>Absolute goodness means making judging people incorrectly
If his judgments are righteous it doesn't matter whether someone exists and gets sent to hell or was never born or exists and goes to heaven, all scenarios are morally appropriate and don't taint God himself.

God would only be liable for evil if he sends innocent people to hell, or rewards wicked people for their evil or just judges people incorrectly in general....But by definition he doesn't, he is all good and all knowing.

>>14947511
"Yes"

God placed himself into ignorance and became the material world. Why? because nothing could stop him and he wanted to. By obtaining gnosis, we can return to ourself and choose to forever destroy not merely actually existing evil but the possibility of evil itself. If we continue to fall into forgetfullness, we will be lost forever. God will have killed himself.

>b-but God can't kill himself
yes he can retard, God can do anything.

>>14947546
who taught you this nonsense?

>>14947543
By willing for the damned soul to be, he is willing for its damnation to be: because for him (knowing the future) it's future is a certainty before he creates the soul; but solely if he creates it, which he freely chooses to do.

>>14947566
The 'damnation' is righteously judged to the wicked.
The 'damnation' is willfully chosen by the wicked.
The creation of the original innocent soul is not wicked.

God is good.

>>14947546
This isn't entirely incorrect. Read Neoplatonism.
Read Damascius' Commentary on the Phaedo.

>>14947583
>>14947546

>>14947558
I received it by direct revelation.

>>14947608
refer to >>14947518

reminder all "orthobros" are nazi larpers

isnt the girl in the OP a literal porn star

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
We don't know. We know that we can regard hell to be the complete absence of God in your heart, but we do not know whether anyone actually gets send to hell forever and can shut out God completely out of their heart.
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
We don't know.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They are ensouled, but do not possess a human soul.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
We don't know.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
We don't know.
>does God own humankin?
No.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
No.

>>14947577
triple based
and based.

>>14947420
>humans can know everything
Nice solipsism bruh.

>>14948115
((()))

>>14946824
That pic's from porn lmao. Indigo White - Bible Study on ph

>>14948176
hello coomer my old friend.
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping

>>14946824
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell. Repent and believe. The very first and last thing Christ said on earth said was to repent and preach repentance.

>>14947056
Why argue with dogma? They aren't explaining something deduced by reason. They have a dogma and they rationalize the contradictions away. There is nothing really to argue with.

>>14948214
except everything he said beforehand was reason based, so he is arguing based on rationality and not dogma.
>Creating something good which by it's own choice becomes bad, does not make the creator bad
This is not dogma

>>14946824
>>is Hell forever?
if God wills for it to be. I do think it is, but that time is more than one-dimensional, so our "forever" is not everything. But even in our one-dimensional notion there is reason to believe that hell doesn't have to be eternal, although God should be feared sincerely.
>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
no idea.
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
no idea. If their virtue comes from believing in a universal good then probably heaven.
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
I believe they go to heaven.
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
they do not have agency. they have something like what most humans think free will is, but humans have a lot less agency than they think they do.
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Yes, because this is the world ruled by Love.
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
No. My understanding is that a world ruled by anything other than Love will tear itself appart.
>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
I wouldn't exactly call it equal since that would imply you are approachign a complete understanding, which you can not reach. To the first question I would say: both.
>>does God own humankin?
I don't the "property" as a concept makes sense in this context.
>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
I don't know. I lean towards a yes.

>>14948356
based on the Quranic and Biblical readings of a convert to Islam. not knowledgeable enough to be taken as a representative of the religion.

You are entirely focused on the exoteric shell of those particular religions. Read the sacred texts of other religions and discover the esoteric core they all share, the religio perennis.

>>14946912
>virtuous pagans get judged by the moral law written in their hearts, they have a chance. yes, do not fear because our God is merciful, see Romans 2:15
How can they go to heaven if they are going against one of the two most important commandments, see Matthew 22:36-40.

>>14948184
Did you have a big boy dream?

Jewish but don't attend Synagogue

>is Hell forever?
Judaism is pretty vague about the afterlife and hell is up to debate but people are punished after they die proportional to how sinful they were
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
It's thought that if you were almost perfect you go straight to Heaven and if you were bad you go to hell, but if you were somewhere in between you get punished until your sins are atoned for and then can go to Heaven so I would say Heaven but again Heaven and Hell don't necessarily exist in Judaism. Judaism tells us to focus on this world instead of the next.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
They would go to heaven although if we are going to believe in resurrection (some think all righteous Jews will be resurrected when the Messiah comes) they probably don't get to join on that train.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Probably reincarnated but I have no clue here.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They don't have souls but it's still wrong to treat animals cruelly.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
No, God's creation was imperfect because he gave man free will allowing us to sin. It's up to us to improve the world.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
The creation story says nothing about multiple worlds.
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God dictates the laws of nature. No.
>does God own humankin?
I'm not sure ownership would be the best word to describe the relationship.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Sinners do not owe God they have wronged him. Some sins are against God and some sins are against your fellow man. For example worshiping idols would be against God and killing someone would be against your fellow man. It's easier to be forgiven for sinning against God than your fellow man. Sinners must repent to be forgiven by God.

>>14948176
another day of regretting the vow to quit visiting porn sites forever

>is Hell forever?
Maybe. It depends on what the lower creation does. Hell may not only be forever, but may actually get worse with time. We already exist in a sort of minor hell.

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Things can't really be quantified that way. And we have little to no notion of what lies outside our material world.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Pagans don't have any advantage or disadvantage over anyone.

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
I'm not sure what you mean. There are no unborn children, so nowhere for them to go. Do you mean conceived, but not born? Then I have no idea, but it's best to just see them as people.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Everything has a 'soul' appropriate to its own nature. It is what it is, and continuous with everything else.

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
No. This world is quite bad, all things considered.


>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Most likely (though it's hard to say from our position of ignorance). Yes.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is transcendent to and immanent in those laws. Essentially, whenever God makes a world, he is LARPing. He makes them in their entirety, and they don't exist outside of his activity, but he can leave them at any time and create whichever ones he wishes, like someone playing a game (the world being the game).

>does God own humankind?
God is immanent to humankind (like all things), just like the law. He 'roleplays' as humankind. He purposefully descends into ignorance for His own amusement, and in that ignorance gives back to himself vague glimpses of his own nature, which as human He sees as both himself and coming from 'above' himself.

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
All justice is perfect, because things as a whole get exactly whatever they deserve. If the world is bad, it's because it wants to be that way.

>>14948530
>You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Christian here. I'm tired and distracted, but I'll try to provide scripture to support my take on these questions.

>is Hell forever?
Yes. Matthew 25:46.

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Probably Hell. Matthew 7:14.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
It is impossible for anyone to be virtuous in and of themselves. All virtue comes from God. God responds to those who seek him (Luke 11:9-10), and He has been revealed clearly in nature (Romans 1:20). He is also actively "waiting" for the best possible time to end this world so that more people can be saved (2 Peter 3:8-9).

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
No one goes to Heaven. Our ultimate positive destination is the new Earth (Revelation 21:1). Unborn babies do not go to Hell.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Animals have souls (soul = mind + emotion + will) but plants do not. What plants and animals lack, that makes them lower, if you will, than us is a spirit.

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
No, that world is yet to come.

>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
There's no way to know this right now.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is both above the laws of nature and the dictator of them. Studying nature is not quite equal to studying God, but it's close. See Romans 1:20.

>does God own humankind?
In some sense He does, but it is apparent that He does not view us as property, but as family.

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Only if they fail to accept the gift of salvation.

>>14946922

Based sedevacantist

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
Yes
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Heaven
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They have souls
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
This is a trap, fuck you
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Who knows what God is up to?
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Yes God is God
>does God own humankin?
Yes
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Yes

Not to be edgy but I really don't get how you can live in a modern society and believe in scriptures canonically written by humans and claimed to be resulted from communion with the divine. All I see are people referencing scriptures, as if having a numeric:label makes them valid and true. I know within Christianity there is rampant conflict on which scriptures are true, but anyone with a brain in the current year can safely assume they can all be disregarded.

>>14947199
You're arguing for a world of slaves. If God only allowed for the existence of intelligent beings who did his bidding without question that would be akin to destroying free will. Everyone is given rational agency and the right to choose their own actions. You can't have free will if anyone who doesn't do as they're told is just never created.

>>14949129
stay strong anon

>>14949565
God is omnipotent. We only feel a world of slaves is wrong because he made it so. One equals one, three times four equals twelve. Just like how we can never comprehend a four dimensional plane, we cannot comprehend the infinite worlds your suggested god can create, where one does not equal one and three times four equals an incomprehensible value.
If you suggest a God gives "free will out of morality" and is "omnipotent", then you are incorrect, as he defined and created morality in the first place. So either god is not omnipotent, god does not give us free will out of the good of his heart (due to humans misunderstanding him or him lying to us), or god is not real.

>>14949565
god damn the daftness
God foreseeing the future of your choices has no bearing on who makes those choices. God only creating the lives he foresees will choose good doesn't makes us more or less slaves than if he didn't.

>>14949577
you were supposed to...nevermind

>>14946824
>>is Hell forever?
I don't care as long it is fun
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Reincarnation
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Reincarnation
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
idk
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
not really
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
as long mankind exists perfection will just be a dream
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is good
>does God own humankind?
Yes he is the king after all
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Everyone does for no one is without sin

Also people reincarnate they don't go to hell or heaven when they die only in the end times that is decided.

>>14946991
>>14947025
>>14947056
>>14947186
>>14947254
>>14947543
>>14947535
>>14947532
>>14947525
>>14947566
>>14947577
This platonist guy is intellectually disabled, he doesn't even understand Platonism itself. I posit to him, if The Good emanates a series of processions that are not the Good and become more remote as they advance does it make the Good as good as matter?

>>14947096
Ehhh I'm a different anon but I kind of get it through the analogy of gun manufacturers. If someone make a gun and someone buys a gun then the responsibility transfers to that new person. If that person then shoots someone it is their fault.

The only thing I find sketchy is that god is in position of both gun manufacturer and judge in this scenario. He has also interceded a lot in events so it would be as nothing to intercede everywhere all the time. Mostly just in big events and certain people. But then we get into problems of interceding Hitler and WWII.
>What if something worse was going..
Intercede that to. So it kinda falls apart.

>>14949820
In the end, we are human, and we were born with our personality traits and our environment. Hitler maybe would have never committed genocide if he went to art university, so is it god's fault that the university had competitive applicants that year? Is it free will, really, if a person can be driven to a path through their environment? Is it wrong for a person to murder for their own survival, or to commit genocide because they genuinely believe the Jews are at fault for causing famine and poverty in their war-ridden country?
The whole premise of god is stupid, since I assure you the whole heaven to hell ratio is far, far higher in a post-scarcity society. If god is real, then he never intended his believers to use such aggressive recruitment techniques - believe in me or go to hell. Or maybe he did, and he is just playing around with us like green army men on a playset.

>>14949726
The issue is about eternal hell.
Emanation isn't ex nihilo.
And your question makes no sense, nor does it have any relevance to the thread.

In a way everything is the Good, in an ineffable way, as much as the One-Being which is everything is the Good (since it is beyond distinction), but this is as a whole. Evil only exists from a perspective of particularity: if Matter viewed in itself then it is pure emptiness, non-being—absolute potential being with zero actuality, just like the Indefinite Dyad, in-fact it is the Dyad but removed from the Limited Henad by being "outside" the One-Being; or perhaps matter even is the same as the the Indefinite "beforeness" of the Epistrophe of Nous that eternally forms the One-Being (God, the Harmony of the Unlimited and the Limited). But matter is only "good" when seen for what it is: that being the receptacle of all form, it is "evil" when Soul confuses the image with the archetype/forn that inheres in matter making a Body, bodies are Icons and should focus the mind to true reality (god) not draw all our attention to the body itself and become idols (if you're orthodox this should be perfectly understandable), the whole world and everything in is an Icon, and in being an Icon it fulfills its telos and thus it is the Good.
Then you might respond with saying that then everything is equally Good, but this ignores that the Good is "everything" and more than everything (panentheism), since he is also the true goal of everything. Thus he isn't everything as much as privation can be semantically argued to be "something", that if he is everything and more then he should also be every possible distinction that you can't imagine, but a shadow isn't truly something; just as [my skin and Jupiter] tho now being a category isn't a real thing, there's no Idea of this in heaven, shadows and this random category are products of human doxa and not real participations of the Ideas.

Sunni muslim here
>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
Depends. It is said that Allah will sentence people to hell a specific amount of time and will depend on how you lived. Eternity is a possibility
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
I'd say hell because theres more people that arent following islam than actual muslims.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Not sure but heard if your parents are muslim then the baby will live as a bird in heaven. Not sure about the other babies dont quote me on this.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They will turn to sand in judgement day.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
No, the 7th heaven is, there you would live with the prophet.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Dont know
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Both I believe.
>does God own humankin?
Yes.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Define owe?

>>14949942
Can you stop dodging from the questions saying ''this is not relevant to the thread'', I am addressing your positions.

>Emanation isn't ex nihilo
so what
just answer the questions, the world as a sacred temple, reflecting the hyperuranion is not different from what christianity says (and even proto-christianity) that the bible is the second book written by God, the first being the World; the question is not that matter is evil you idiot, but that it carries evil as potentia and as you said even the soul (ignorance), but then why is the Good the Good if he bestows evil as potentia, or even if there is a lesser good in proodos? do you think it is any different from what we have been saying about God?

>>14949614
Ugh.

There is no glory in slaves, the pivotal Christian virtue is sacrificing and sharing for others. Thus for God to glorify Himself and therefore do what is 'good' he must create autonomous agents which he can share with in the first place.
If God forces us to His will then there is no autonomy, we would simply be an extension of Him.
The critical story is of Adam and Eve, their story is about the acquisition of freedom and what it cost. For there to be freedom there must be a balance between the darkness and the light, thus we ate the apple. It is in this limbo state that we are bound neither to the light or the dark. God then constantly gives us opportunities to choose the light, to follow Him.

So what is freedom? It's from two things. First we need a will, we must have something which we pursue. Secondly, we need the power to pursue this will. We all have a void in us which we try and satiate and it can only be filled by God, that is what we truly long for.
On the matter of freedom it doesn't actually matter what the internal reason for our will is, only that in acknowledging this thing which is ours; this will, we are capable of pursuing it. That is what freedom is; being able to pursue what we have taken ownership of (the will).

To have a world that neither forces a person to the light or the dark (which would otherwise expunge their individual power) and provides them the capacity of self direction (pursuing the will by our own choices) (both of which are the prerequisites of freedom), God had to make sacrifices. The world will have a great deal of evil imbued in it. Still, we can find glory behind the darkness because it always serves the purposes of the Lord in the end. The world was built with one sole purpose, to share the light of the Lord to others, everything has been set to fulfill this in the best way possible. It's just that the best way has a lot of sadness imbued in its path.

>>14949614
he didn't create morality you idiot, morality is a consequence of the Fall; free will is bestowed by reason of God's goodness.

>>14950363
Matter doesn't carry anything. Free-will is good and the mystery of the free-will of souls brings with it the possibility of vice, but in the even greater scheme of things nothing is evil, for even every evil (in platonism) will bring with it good and will fulfill a greater beauty than any hypothetical "evil-less" possible world could (such a world is not possible). I like to call this the tragedy of tragedy, suffering is necessity for absolute good and beauty, and it transfigures every evil into carrying out good—but Eternal Damnation is not this, nothing good comes out of since those who will be saved are saved and the damned can't escape.

>>14950449
meant
>>14950233

>>14950363
Cont.
I'd like to note that God's initial design wasn't yet complete. People couldn't meet the high standards of God in such a world.
It was through Jesus taking up our sins that we were forgiven and given a powerful ally the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit does not control us, rather it acts as a guard railing. This is to help us on our journey towards God. However, there still is no force requiring us to follow this path. It's like God offering us a hand, all we must do is reach out. In having faith and truly desiring God, by the Grace (help) bestowed on us through the Holy Spirit and the expunging of sin through Jesus we are capable of reaching Heaven.

>>14950449
christ descended to hell

>>14950449
>even greater scheme of things nothing is evil, for even every evil (in platonism) will bring with it good and will fulfill a greater beauty than any hypothetical "evil-less" possible world could (such a world is not possible)

and how is this different from christianity jesus fucking christ, you have no idea against what you are posting, this is the same thing of felix culpa
again, hell is a mystery and even jesus went there

>>14950449
Think of Hell as the absence of God. The punishment is less God striking down those who don't believe and moreso these people tearing themselves apart.

Also it's fine to call evil things evil. That's because it's a tragedy that they exist but if it is necessary for something greater, then it's worthy of being done.

>>14950492
Because the reconstitution is only of everyone nature (this is how hell is eternal) it is not everyone's salvation.
That God chose to create a Satan that will be chained in tartarus forever, this alone, makes your god evil, since all evil comes from God choosing to create Satan. If he hadn't freely chosen this, we'd already be in paradise, untainted by Satan.
And you repeating that "it's exactly like this in Christianity" going by some dogma is the exact reason for all of this, it contradicts other dogma, making the church as a whole irreconcilable with itself.

> mfw actual religion fetish
> all those roasties and coomers gotta ruin it with promiscous, sexualized version of clergy/monks/nuns that are almost platonically cute in their actual ways
bros, I... please refrain from posting such pics.

>>14950558
don't you get tired from repeating the same things that were refuted before? i have responded how God does not create evil like 3 or 4 times in this thread and many more in the other thread from yesterday iirc. eternal damnation is the presence of God for those that hate God and don't want to get rid of their temporal notions.
you are as stubborn and blind as the most zealous puritan protestant

>>14950597
that's irrelevant, they wouldn't exist to freely hate god for eternity if god hadn't created them, as he chose to do in-spite of their damned eternal future.

>>14950395
He created the universe, didn't he? He created adam and eve, he created the laws of physics, he created the snake, he created all of it. Thus, as an omnipotent god, he knew the entire story of the universe from the start. How every molecule of water would fall, how every person would die. He could have easily changed it to not be so. He could have changed free will to be evil and mindless obedience to be good. He could have made everyone eternally happy, he could have made everyone eternally suffer. In another universe, likely one of an infinite amount, he has done so. It is all his choice.
So free will being a "necessity" and "right" is just another thing we believe, being homo sapiens born into this one of his universes. He can bend the laws of the universe to make it morally right to be obedient forever, since he can do anything.

>>14951228
>how every person would die
Not him but just because you CAN do something doesn't mean he used it. When he created Adam and Eve and gave them free will he obviously knew they could sin but he didn't look into the future to see if they would. The first time he talks about the future is after they had sinned

>>14950579
What’s that? I couldn’t hear you over how much of a VIRGIN you are

>>14951274
Okay, let us assume he used his omnipotent powers to deliberately disable his ability to look forward in time (or otherwise we just don't understand how a transcedent, omnipotent being works and he chooses not to look forward in time). He created the universe. He created humans. It's quite bold of you to assume we mean anything to him, in fact, it is downright stupid. He chose to make morality the way it is, and I'm not familiar with specific Christian scripture but from what I understand Eve was just doing what her human instincts god gave told her to do. He set her up for failure.
We could go even further and pretend every little thing in this universe is random, i.e. God is playing a game and he pressed random on the "New Universe" creation screen. Why would he care about us? We would then just be toys to him, incapable of thinking on a transcended being's level, and I'm sure there were many, many others before us. Do you care when you read a book and see the line: "A thousand men were eviscarated by the miniature nuclear warhead, torn into nothingness."? Those thousand men aren't real. They don't think, they are just an abstract of our mind. Much like we would be to an omnipotent being like god.

>>14951349
>Why would he care about us?
Because he created us. If you think about it god obviously doesn't need Jesus, angels or humans yet he created us out of love. So what do we know? His intent was: perfect human beings, they all obey god and worship him, they have families, male + female + children, eventually Earth is full so there can't be too many. So he's given us tons of gifts, a life that would be without pain and suffering etc. Peace, no sickness. So the idea of paradise wasn't supposed to be some hard-won reward. It was a gift from god. So it's not too far away from what men + women do. When it works they love each other, create babies and take care of them. That's why Jesus talked so much about love and why it's so important, shows up the most in book of John
>Do you care when you read a book and see the line: "A thousand men were eviscarated by the miniature nuclear warhead, torn into nothingness."
Jesus answered that in a simple way
>Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care
>And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered
>So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows
So the answer is yes, he really does care. Jesus also brings up an interesting point about the amount of hairs. You might think that's like unnecessary or poetic thought but it's actually logical. God is going to resurrect people in the future then he must know that kind of stuff

>>14950638
imagine repeating countless times how metaphysically shallow you are

>>14951407
>Because he created us. If you think about it god obviously doesn't need Jesus, angels or humans yet he created us out of love.
Where's the proof? Scripture, written by a large, separate body of humans in an era freed from forensic science?
>Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care
>And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered
>So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows
So basically in matter-of-fact terms, Jesus is saying "Yes, he actually does care about every one of you, even if there are an absolute shitload of you." Okay. Good for Jesus. How do we know he actually said that? How do we know God actually believes that? Faith? Why would a transcendent being even experience such simple emotion when he obviously exists in a higher plane of being we cannot hope to ever understand?

What if I had a theory that God is merely pretending to be nice since we are just a game to him, and he is just seeing what happens in one of his infinite universes to fuck around? It makes a lot more sense than him caring about an infinite number of beings through his infinite universes but still refusing to give them all decent lives because he wants to give the starving slaves in Africa "free will", as if the world that formed around a person does not determine their actions.

>>14946824
Former shia muslim here. I'm not religious anymore but these are what I was taught.

>is Hell forever?
Yes.
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Hell.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell, though they might be pardoned.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
The latter.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
No, the best of all possible worlds is heaven. We are to be tested to see if we deserve it.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Nobody knows.
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Yes to the first question, no to the second. Natural sciences are the study of God's creations.
>does God own humankin?
Yes.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Some of the sins are against God, some are against his creations. So it depends on their particular sins.

>>14946824
Former shia muslim here. I'm not religious anymore but these are what I was taught.

>is Hell forever?
Yes, but some people might be pardoned after a while.
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Hell.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell, though they might be pardoned.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
The latter.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
No, the best of all possible worlds is heaven. We are to be tested to see if we deserve it.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Nobody knows.
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Yes to the first question, no to the second. Natural sciences are the study of God's creations.
>does God own humankin?
Yes.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Some of the sins are against God, some are against his creations. So it depends on their particular sins.

>>is Hell forever?
Depends on what you mean. Hell is definitely a metaphor for how your life will become if you sin. He who is so deep into sinful nature might never "get out", so in a sense, yes. There will always be evil, sin, etc., and one could argue that this infinite being of evil is hell itself.

Now the traditional hell, no idea.

>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Assuming that there is an afterlife, I believe most people go to heaven, or a lighter versjon of Hell, like the first circle of Hell in Dante.
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven or first circle. God probably prefers a virtuous pagan rather than most these LARPers on here, cursing each other out and telling others they'll go to hell.
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven. Mat. 19:14. It's about normal children, but why would God send unborn ones to hell?
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Doesn't really matter. For all I know they can be both. What is a soul anyway.
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Doesn't really matter if it is or not. It's the only place you can live and make the best out of your life.
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Doesn't matter. They could possibly be better.
>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God isn't necesarrily a being, he's just described that way for pedagogical purposes. God is a process, a phenomenon, etc.
>>does God own humankin?
Doesn't matter or change anything. You could say that he owns us because we all live under the phenomenon of God, but idk.

>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Sinners owe themself to become better people. Sin isn't necesarrily everything the Bible says no to, it's everything you do, that you know you shouldn't be doing.

>>14951550
>separate body of humans in an era freed from forensic science?
Yet science catches up to the bible and not the other way around
>How do we know he actually said that?
God doesn't lie so neither did Jesus
>How do we know God actually believes that?
He sacrificed his son for us. I mean he tells us the solution right from the beginning how he's gonna fix things. When you read the bible you start noticing how god acts towards humans and how he sees things. He didn't just destroy random cities, he destroyed cities that were evil yet spared cities when a king was humble or if they changed like Nineveh. Or the fact he spares some random prostitute and her family because they had faith
>Why would a transcendent being even experience such simple emotion when he obviously exists in a higher plane of being we cannot hope to ever understand?
That's what it means in the beginning of the bible. We were created in his image doesn't mean we look like him literally, it's talking about love, compassion etc. And yeah, we can obviously always learn more from god and about the universe so we will never know everything like he does
>What if I had a theory that God is merely pretending to be nice since we are just a game to him
He didn't let billions of humans suffer in vain. It was to answer important questions which happened in Eden. Basically does god have the authority to rule and can humans be independent? Obviously Satan just wanted to be god and humans weren't created to be independent in the first place. That's why we have a spiritual need. It's like eating or sleeping. That's why beginning of proverbs is written the way it is. It's pleading to humans to listen
>How long, O simple ones, will you love your simple ways? How long will scoffers delight in their scorn and fools hate knowledge?
Answer of course depends on you. It's your choice if you want to listen or not

>>14951729
Okay, you're just baiting

>>14946912
>Orthobro
>posts a sandnigger
kek

>>14946824
Mormon here, so either Christian or Other Abrahamic depending on how you want to classify me. Latter-day Saint terminology is probably confusing to most so I'll avoid using it as much as possible, google Plan of Salvation if you want clarity or more specific answers.

>>is Hell forever?
There is a temporary hell between now and the last judgement, after this there is a permanent hell for the very select few who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost and the agents of Satan

>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
This is where it would be best to look up Plan of Salvation. We believe in three degrees of heaven and by far the vast majority of humanity will enter one of the three

>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven, what degree of heaven depends - individuals who would have accepted Christ and the fullness of the gospel in this life if they had known about it may receive the highest, individuals who receive it in the afterlife between now and the final judgement receive the second highest, pagans who reject it in this life but do not blaspheme against the the Holy Ghost go to the third/final

>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven of the first degree, as do children who die young

>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
For animals, obviously not in the exact same sense that humans have souls, but nor are they automatons - they have the breath of life instilled in them by God and like the rest of the cosmos will be eventually restored to existence by God. Cruelty to animals is expressly forbidden. Plants are just a part of the world, but like the rest of creation should not be wantonly destroyed.

>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Not at the moment, but it is progressing towards it, when it will be restored and completed

>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Yes, there are worlds without number and like our own they are imperfect and will be restored and completed in due time.

>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
A complicated question to answer. God is not ontologically different from the rest of existence, and things possess being independent of God, what follows from that is complex. If you want the answer of most Mormons, God did not create the laws of nature, but engages with them in ways beyond human understanding. My answer would be a bit different.

As for studying nature, no, but in doing so you gain a better understanding of God in the sense that God has a perfect understanding and by increasing your own understanding you become more like God and thus better able to understanding of Him

>>does God own humankin?
In the manner that a father 'owns' his childern

>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
What do you mean by owe?

>>14952463
and just to clarify, in my answer to 'Is Hell Forever' I meant that those who go to permanent hell are those blaspheme against the Holy Ghost OR ARE agent of Satan (demons)

>>14946824
I consider myself nothing and there i shall return.

>is Hell forever?
It can be a state of mind. As long as you live probably.

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Whoever doesn't really belive in God.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell.

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
None, like they never existed.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Why do you put humanity above animals and plants?

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Le multiverse an' shits.This the only reality your brain will ever experience.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
If you are a christian you should know God created life using The Holy Spirit, Nature(as everything else) is a manifestation of the holy spirit, not God.

>does God own humankin?
Jesus did, his Father i don't know.

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Yes.

>>14947319
Scarlet monastary?

>>14946912
Based Orthobro
Kind of unrelated, but why choose Orthodox over Catholicism? I'm a typical tradcath but I'm also beginning theological study and was curious about the perspective of my Eastern brothers in Christ

>>14951285
Why yes, I am a volcel that rejoyces in innocent attractions, how could you tell?

>>14946824
>Hi anons of /lit/, if you happen to be a Christian, Jewish, a muslim or if you believe in any other abrahamic religion I'm interested in your
>>is Hell forever?
Yes
>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Hell
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Hell
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Grabs
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Yes
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
No, Not applicable
>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Both, No
>>does God own humankin?
Partially
>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
No

>>14952684
>volcel

That’s a really nice word for coping faggot

>>14952635
>Kind of unrelated, but why choose Orthodox over Catholicism?
Kind of cliched but it chose me.

I watched this interview one day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2OtD5OkHHo , just by chance, and it had a profound impact on me, not just what the priest was saying but how he said it with his presence and gaze. It got me curious about Christianity. Although I was baptized into the EO Church as a baby I lost faith very early on, so did my parents, and I was raised agnostic/atheist most of my life. I had a lot of negative preconceptions about Christianity but studying the saints [both east and west] really helped me overcome them.

The more I learned about EO the more I thought it had the best parts of Roman Catholicism, without going too far in some respects (like papal power, watering down their mass, etc). I'm not sure what you think of the current state of the RCC, but I feel like it's going in a bad direction, specially with Pope Francis, pachamama and Vatican 2...anyway one of my favourite books is Kempis' Imitation of Christ.

How about you, why Catholic instead of Orthodox?

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
Hell doesn't exist, it's not mentioned in the Bible, it's a later invention by Catholics
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Neither
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
They will be resurrected and judged on the day of judgement
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
They will be resurrected and judged on the day of judgement
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
No souls, yes agency
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
There is only one possible world
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
No
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
He is them
>does God own humankin?
No, but he has the power to judge them on the day of judgement so they have an interest in acting right
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
They owe themselves

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
Yes.

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
No one knows. also, remember heaven is an intermediate state between dormition and the final redemption with the new heaven and earth.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Their own choice, and God is merciful.

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven. original sin is not a legal claim against us but means that we are born into a fallen state of nature with predisposition towards sin and thus perdition.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
they are not made in the image of god, but they have inherent value. (clear in genesis) their nature will also be restored, as all of creation will in the final redemption. We get glimpses of what that will look like in isaiah.

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Yes.

>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
No.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is above and beyond and dictates nature. We can know God’s energies by looking at creation. Natural theology has some value then, but not as a means of knowing the essence of God.

>does God own humankin?
Certainly humans do not ‘own’ themselves because they are not their own cause, but have been given everything they are, their very existence, as a gift from on high.

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
God is the triune source of life, truth and goodness. he created man in his image, made him for the community of love as expressed in the loving relation of father, son and spirit. Love can not exist under coercion, you cannot force someone to love; therefore part of man’s likeness to God is his free will to enter into the community of love, truth, goodness, life. But this also implies the possibility of turning this down. This is what sin is. Turning away from life, denying truth, goodness and love, denying your own nature and the inherent value of creation and thus choosing death/impertinence and perdition of your own god given will. This is what sin, death, hell is. God is not a tyrant, he does not force anyone, and the question of sin is not one of ‘debt’.

>>14951410
>None of God's creations are necessary creations.
>Because this undermines God's absolute freedom and omnipotence.
>Therefore god freely, independently, willingly, without need to do so, creates every soul, chooses for it to be EX NIHILO.
No God who chooses to create the life he knows will hate him, for an eternity in torment, is the Good.

it's important to keep it in mind that God's judgement is eternal and won't change. You can only change your destination in this earthly life.

all christians should read this book by this catholic theologian. it's a little over 100 pages.

>>14954555
forgot the pic

ITT: adult virgins

>>14952635
why become EO when oriental orthodox are coming to the church? everything follows a hierarchy in this world. it wouldn't be different with the church.

>>14946824
Catholicanon

>is Hell forever?

Yes, but as consequence of free will. The fate of Judas is emblematic here. Judas was not sentenced to Hell by God for his betrayal, he rejected forgiveness and is in Hell because he continues to reject God. Same for all sinners in Hell. Salvation and redemption are still available to them, but they are in Hell because they reject that mercy.

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?

Unknown and unknowable.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?

Heaven (eventually). Any Pagan with true Christian virtues would be visited by Jesus after death and accept Christ as savior. Like most people, you first go to Purgatory and then Heaven.

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?

Heaven.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?

They have agency, personality, and a life force, but that is very different from a soul. They do not have a soul that lives on after death.

>is this the best of all possible worlds?

No. The ideal possible world is that everyone accepts the dominion of Christ and ushers in the Kingdom of God on Earth. This is a hypothetical scenario, though, not another universe.

>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?

Not to our knowledge. It seems unlikely that God has created other creatures in his image.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?

God determines the laws of nature. Studying nature and science is studying the works of God, but that is different from studying God.

>does God own humankind?

Yes, our lives and souls belong to Christ. It is by His choice that we have free will.

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?

First, everyone of us is a sinner. The only exceptions were Christ and the Virgin Mary. Yes, all of us are in debt to Christ for having excused our sinners. Think of it like a just punishment that has been waived. If justice alone, not mercy, was applied then all humanity would be condemned to death and Hell. Instead, God has spared us even though we don't deserve it. As a result, we live constantly on His charity and grace alone.

>>14954573
what do you think about Francis, Vatican II and the direction of the RCC?

>>14954662
vatican II was a mistake. my personal feelings towards the pope are better kept as they are: irrelevant

>>14954666
>666
Checked
>keep my feelings private
Why?
Pope is infallible and top of your hierarchy. Tell us what you think about him and the direction of your church...and remember the cardinal's who elect him and his successor have many things in common...

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
it depends on how much sin you have
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
people's reincarnation will happen according to their Karma, enough good Karma, you'll go to Heaven; enough bad Karma, you'll go to Hell
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
people's reincarnation will happen according to their Karma
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
depends on the Karma they created in their past lives
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
animals do have souls, i'm quite sure about that
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
this world is a good one, but if you want to know about a dream world, google 'Pure Land of Amita Buddha'
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
not infinite, but neither countable, also there is no God
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
read "MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra" by Nagarjuna to know more about Buddha
>does God own humankind?
no, no one does
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
there is no God, no one owe anyone anything

>>14954678
pope is not infallible. papal infallibility does not grant infaillibility to each of his actions, it's rather an assurance of the infalible orthodoxy of the church to which he MUST be subject.

i don't have the sources at hand but if you look into church history and the first 8 councils you'll notice the bishop of rome indeed had a primacy over the other bishops. it was also the council of rome that set the canon list
>Why?
obedience. a thing prots and orthos need to learn. i doesn't matter in the end how i feel about the pope. most of church history was before the fast communication, many saints rarely heard from the pope.

>>14949507
Yeah, there is some debate on which scriptures are true, but that's not the case for most major scripture. As in, almost no scholars dispute the authenticity of the four primary gospels of Christianity and literally no one disputes the authenticity of the Koran.

That doesn't mean that they are divinely inspired, that's an issue of faith. But there is almost no doubt that the Koran was written by Mohammed in the late 600s and that all the major parts of the New Testament were written within 70 years of the death of Jesus.

>>14954717
mohammed could not write. the koran was dictated

>>14954707
>obedience.
>but vatican 2 was a mistake
What?

>>14954729
>the koran was dictated
nope, there is no compulsion in religion

>>14954734
not a doctrinal council, just pastoral. it is not necessary for a catholic to accept and follow CVII

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
It's as long as you want it to be. My visit was something I equated to 1.5 million years, but it's a timeless place so it only feels like that.
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Not sure, I asked not to see the good ones, and I didn't much care about the others, beyond how much I could make them suffer.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Christ didn't have an issue with Zoroastrian mages or Centurions, but he did with pharisees and his disciples.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Can't remember seeing any.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Humans are distinct on this planet. There is reincarnation on this 3D machine world, and there is a timeless realm where you are forever.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Haha, no. Here we have others limiting how good it can be, in hell I was one of the limiters to how good it could be.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
There's many, no idea how many. Look at the stars. How many are there? Even if it were finite, the number would be too great.
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Think of the world as software piling on software. God doesn't break things that often, but mystical coincidences are pretty common, no?
>does God own humankin?
Like an artist owns art. We're a 'happy accident', which is why Bob Ross is pretty much the ideal presentation of man.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Love God as you love yourself. If you hate yourself for your sins, you break against yourself and don't honor God as God would want to be honored, and as you need to.

>>14954662
I think Francis is doing a fairly good job in a difficult time for the Church. It is hard to judge because a good Pope is both a capable administrator and a holy person. Pope Benedict XVI is an inspired theologian and good Christian, but his handling of the Vatican Bank scandal showed that wasn't a very good administrator.

Big supporter of Vatican II for getting rid of ceremonial aspects of the Church that were not based in scripture and often did not conform to Christian notions of mercy. I'm ambivalent about more reform. Having married priests wouldn't be bad so long as they cannot move up the hierarchy or join Holy Orders. The Eastern Rite churches all work well with that system.

I am suspicious of a lot of the reconciliation with Islam and Judaism. They are undoubtedly our fellow travels in worshiping God, but that does not mean they are 'equally right' nor that conversion efforts should stop. Never forget the words of Pope Saint Pius IX: "Religion is immutable; not an idea, but the truth. Truth knows no change".

>>14954777
yes, truth is eternal, that's precisely why vatican 2 was a mistake
>ceremonial aspects
>notions of mercy
>married priests
i raised my eyebrows in a worried manner. big yikes & oof, brother.

>>14954793
All of the Catholic churches that practice non Latin Rite already have married priests. I don't think we *need* married priests, just that it wouldn't be the end of the world.

what aspects of Vatican 2 do you reject brother?

>>14954777
>I am suspicious of a lot of the reconciliation with Islam and Judaism. They are undoubtedly our fellow travels in worshiping God, but that does not mean they are 'equally right' nor that conversion efforts should stop.
That's one thing that turned me off quite a bit. Nice holy trips.

>>14954823
de lubac, von balthasar, ratzinger, all these theologians from the nouvelle theologie were liberals and supported V2. right after it happened though they openly said things went wrong during the council. von balthasar says: "before the council we were all liberals, right after it we were all conservatives." and that "the problem was that the council was made by theologians and not sains" (as opposed to trent)

lumen gentium #16, nostra aetate, abandonment of latin. the versus populum was also a mistake (pope benedict XVI said it was an essential part of the liturgy) and was never explicitly established, either in the council or later by paul VI in his reform of the mass. same goes for drop of clerical vestiments. i wouldn't mind if the new mass had retained latin and its ad orientem direction, and while they were not all things established in the council, they were its fruits.

Lol wtf God is not real bros

>>14954888
God is the realest.

>>14954876
saints*
pope benedict said ad orientem was an essential part of the liturgy*

what von balthasar means is that they didn't shift their position, it was the council that went further into the left in such manner that they became the opposite of what they were

>>14952635
>but why choose Orthodox over Catholicism?
Because Orthodoxy is true, while Catholicism is deluded and confused in its theology in many places where Orthodoxy would use the same type of arguments (nature-person distinction, essence-energies distinction, etc) to refute wide swaths of heresy, ranging from Arianism to Filioquism and Protestantism.

I fully and genuinely believe you'll find that out yourself soon enough if you're beginning to study theology. Just remind yourself to read Eastern stuff too.

>>14954573
>oriental orthodox are coming to the church
>stubborn schismatic church goes to this other stubborn schismatic church
That's actually what one would expect if Orthodoxy was true. Also, Orthodoxy believes in hierarchy. Even one with successors of Saint Peter at the head. We just don't ascribe magical indefectability to his office, which is a gift meant only for the Church in its entirety, not individual bishops.

>>14954707
>obedience.
>doesn't follow teachings of his supposed head and his predeccessors for the last ~50 years
what did he mean by this?

>>14955076
I agree with what you said about infallibility and that's what I mentioned earlier >>14954707. Within the apostles h Peter had a primacy that was passed to the bishop of Rome. Constantinople later would try to claim primacy in the east (over alexandria) due to the fact it was the new Rome.

>>14954777
>They are undoubtedly our fellow travels in worshiping God
>Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Both deny the Triune God, so which God are we fellow travellers in worshipping?

>>14955094
Already said the council had no teaching nature. Its aim was to set a modus operandi within modernity.

>>14955118
>I agree with what you said about infallibility
Then you shall be branded a heretic by even pre-VCII Rome, as the office of the Pope itself dogmatically has certain infallibility privlegies when teaching doctrine to the entire Church. Sedevacantism type positions inevitably lead one to either apostate completely or join orthodoxy.
>Within the apostles h Peter had a primacy that was passed to the bishop of Rome.
We agree. The only thing we would disagree with is his universal jurisdiction and immediate (unmediated) authority over ordinary matters in every single church. We also disagree with his inability to be a heretic and defect completely from the Church.

>>14955136
So your head can set a modus operandi for the entire church but that's somehow not a teaching as regards to what Christians all over the world should do? Seems like extreme levels of mental gymnastics.

>>14955136
so your popes are just figureheads and not mean to be emulated by the average Christian? i guess that explains why novus ordo degeneracy is so rare in our days and trad chapels are abundant and the default position.

>>14955148
No. Infallibility doesn't exist to protect the pope, it exists as an orthodox compass. Infallibility concerns faith and morals and was used less than 5 times. As a dogma it was established in the 19th century.

Yes, we are not bound to it.

>>14955166
>kisses a book which denies the Divinity of Christ
Lmao. How do tradcaths cope with this complete apostasy by multiple popes? I'm genuinely interested.

>>14955166
There's malice in your words as you try to catch me just like a pharisee. Begone.

>>14955172
>like a pharisee
>says the "trad"cath with ridiculous magic-tier RPG rules concerning the precise point in time when transubstantiation happens in the Eucharist

>>14946824
>>is Hell forever?
Focus on not going there anyway. Probably forever though.
>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
Hell.
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Depends if they would accept salvation on judgement.
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Limbo.
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Two separate questions and both terribly worded. They have souls of their own type.
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Yes.
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
No.
>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Of nature, yes. Of thought, no.
>>does God own humankin?
There is no scarcity to God and no one to seize from him what he doesn't let go already.
>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
They might owe God for existence.

>>14946912
Absolutely based, FPBP

>>14954137
you mad?
>>14952684
based volcel

>>14946824
Heaven or Hell are not these different places God puts you in. But a different experience of God in the afterlife so it depends of your soul how you experience it.
In the end we dont know who "goes" to heaven or hell how can we ?

>>14947387
Reminder that honourable and good men that don’t believe in God would be put in the burning pits of Hell, their only punishment is a lack of connection and love with God.

>>14955887
Would not be*

Good to see so many Christian bros here discussing things (fairly) charitably.

My question is how did jews become so materialistic and irreligious given their history?

>>14954137
i had sex at 16 and decided it's not worth anything, especially considering i don't seek a partner, relationship, and let alone marriage.
would be pretty degenerate to seek sex in that case.

>>14956362
Damn how painful was your first experience? And what's preventing you from marriage? I have a friend like that but he feels that his genetics (ugly, bald, short, frail, digestive issues and mental problems) aren't worth spreading (are you like that?)

>>14956304
Check out Sombart's book on the Jews, especially the later chapters that detail their cultural history

>>14956388
>Damn how painful was your first experience?
it was pleasant, just not my type of pleasure. i'm not a real shut-in and dont have trouble socializing, relationship is just not for me, some people are natural hermits or loners, call it whatever you want.
i'm glad to have a full understanding of it, else i'd try to pursue the "normal lifestyle" and not only waste time myself, but bring another human into a loveless, pointless relationship. even for the most believing solitude and celibacy are a valid option, and i'm pretty neutral faithwise

>>14956304
Strong materialist base and virtually no metaphysics of death and after-death. Judaism pretty much ONLY deals with the jews as long as they live. If you could reduce judaic faith to ONE book in the Tanakh, it would be the song of songs.

>>14946824
I would say pagans who are virtuous go to heaven. the failing is ours for not being capable enough to show them the way desu.

>>14956304
Killing Christ messed them up big time.

>>14952635
Eastern Catholicism exists you know. You don't have to jump ship. I used to go to Byzantine Catholic Church back when I was interested in their liturgy. Frankly, I like the Latin rite much more.

>>14956388
Coping coomer projection. Unfortunate to see

>>14947025
>choices
People ignorant of the choice still go to hell
This was a problem to Church Fathers and it exemplified in Dante, where Virgil is in limbo, just as unbaptized children are, because people couldn't explain why their 'all-knowing all-good' sky daddy would let innocents, even exemplary virtuous innocents without simply being a sad old sadistic cunt

>>14956795
Killing Christians is the only right solution, you are only doing them a favor
Every Roman who tormented and killed these pathetic frail imbeciles deserve a place in heaven just as much. Just as Judas should be at Christ's side for doing his will.

>>14949327
Pretty solid reply. I agree with the majority of this (I believe unborn children go to Heaven/are with our Lord but thats all) this, especially the part about virtuous pagans bc while a lot of other replies say otherwise, a pagan's sole object/person of worship isn't Jesus/God in the end so it doesn't matter how virtuous they are if they're still missing Him (which in turn would also change them from a pagan into a Christian).

>>14956304
>My question is how did jews become so materialistic and irreligious given their history?
I'm not sure I'd say Judaism has become irreligious. There are certainly a lot of irreligious Jews out there, but the same could be said of Christians as well. Orthodox Judaism is still going strong and still has a large presence and pull among the Jewish community, and those guys are about as far from irreligious as you can get.

If you're referring more to the Reform movement specifically, then there's a bit of history behind why and how it ended up the ambiguous mess that it is. I can go into more detail if you're interested but for the sake of brevity, the Reform movement puts the religious experience of the individual above any sort of unified structure of dogma, tradition, or doctrine. It's an inherently pluralistic approach which means it has absorbed quite a lot of modern attitudes and morality, which in turn has led to less focus on the specifics of theology, practice, and Jewish law.

As for materisliam, Judaism (or at least Rabbinic Judaism) has always been materialistic. The scripture doesn't have much to say about the afterlife or about metaphysics, and our approach to theology and religious study is very legalistic which by necessity involves a focus on the material aspects of reality. Judaism is very much focused on this world, the one we live in, rather than some higher existence or afterlife. It would rather concern itself with the mechanics and details of how to live a righteous life, than what the eventual reward for doing so is.

That's not to say Judaism isn't spiritual or doesn't care about higher truths or becoming closer to god. On the contrary, orthodox Jews are some of the most spiritual people I know. They just find their spirituality though the act of studying Gods laws and following them. Jewish spirituality puts great emphasis on the omnipresence of God. God can be found everywhere, and in every deed or action we take there is a piece of God. To Judaism you don't need divine revelation, a mystical journey, or esoteric study to become close to the divine. All you need to do is to see the piece of the divine around you in your everyday life and actions. And once you do, to respect and be thankful for the gifts you have been given. In my experience, Jewish spirituality is about finding God in the mundane, through normal, everyday actions.

>>14957713
He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
God's Judgment and the Law

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
>>14946824
the answer to all OP's questions

>>14947186
So parents should also suffer criminal sentences if their children perform crimes? They knew their child had the capacity to break the law when they conceived them, after all.

God is subject to time, prove me wrong.
Ontologically this closes a lot of monotheistic philisophical gaps or discrepancies. There's a lot of proof for it in scripture unless you just the pull the "everything God does is part of a perfect, unknowable plan, even the wrong things (which are hereby good) and the times he changes his mind".

>>14958398
You parents can't choose their child nor can they omnisciently see their entire future, you fucking idiot.

>>14958425
God can't do that either >>14958420

Hijacking this thread to ask if anyone has any good books on Padre pio or other modern saints

>>14958431
we're obviously not talking about your conception of god but the Catholic and Orthodox church dogma, you know the guys who wrote the bible and which the bible affirms as their church (although which one of the two is debatable)

>>14958448
The first thing God does in Genesis is create the world in seven days. There is nothing accounting for the transition of time, it is simply a transuniversal factor, which even God is subject to.
I am talking about the canonical Christian and Abrahamic God. I know the Churches claim that God's power exists over time, but this is clearly and proveably false. Humans developed our conception of time long before we had the faculties to even remotely recognize the vast ramifications of the concept, and thus in error we attributed God's omniscience to hold sway over even time, when that is impossible.

>>14946824
your image contradicts the idea of a traditional woman.
She's putting up her self for the sexual satisfaction of men and using an idea of tradition to create attention for herself.

>>14957713
>Comparing Dante to the Church Fathers

>>14946824
Catholic
>yes
>only God knows but seeing how deep we've fallen I'd wager hell
>neither
>neither
>no and yes
>this is the only material world
>no
>above and dictates, in a way
>yes
>yes

>>14958520
>She's putting up her self for the sexual satisfaction of men and using an idea of tradition to create attention for herself.
Sounds like the traditional woman to me.

>>14958492
we're still not talking about god in general but a false conception of god that disproves the church, which then disproves Christianity as a whole (since it is the church)

>>14958568
Yes, then we agree, what are you doing with the information?

>>14958537
Why yes, I do hold to Sola Divina Commedia, how could you tell?

>>14958705
>>14958537
Based. Dante should first of all be seen as a theologian, then a saint, then a writer.

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
Hell is a state of mind. Like Sisyphus you're unable to escape your own self-imposed grief.
>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven? Purgatory.
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Yes
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Lol this is both heaven and hell
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Probably
>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is above them because he dictates them
>>does God own humankin?
God owns all
>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Up to them

>>14946824
Guess my religion.

>is Hell forever?
no, at most it will last for ~2 years for the most severe sinners.
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
heaven.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
heaven.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
heaven.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
yes, they have souls and one should never hurt an animal or plant, doing so is evil.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
no, because it still has some evil in it. a perfect world would not have evil.
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
i think he created some test worlds before this one, but without any humans on it.
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
he is above them and he dictated them. one should study nature to study God.
>does God own humankin?
no, every human own him/her self.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
no, because God will forgive them when they go to Hell.

>>14946824
Catholic. I'll try to answer closest to Church teaching

>is Hell forever?
Hell is the state of complete separation from God that humans can choose to go into. This state transcends space-time so in a sense, yes it lasts forever as in it has no end.

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
No one knows for sure, but this is an open debate in the Church. Bishop Barron ( the Word on Fire guy) thinks that we can reasonably hope that no one is in hell. In contrast, in the Fatima visitation ( Catholics don't have to believe in the message reportedly given, just the apparition), Our Lady said that "souls fall to the fire of hell like snowflakes", implying that most people are lost.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
The Cathecism teaches that the Church is not the only way to salvation. We can hope that virtous pagans can gain Beatific Vision. However, Catholics belive that the Church was founded by Christ and is the best path to salvation.

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
The Cathecism teaches that the Church is not the only way to salvation. We can hope that virtous pagans can gain Beatific Vision. However, Catholics belive that the Church was founded by Christ and is the best path to salvation.

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
The Cathecism teaches that since God is all-merciful, yes.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They don't have souls. Only humans are "hylomorphic" as Plato would say. However, that doesn't mean that they only exist for the enjoyment of humans.

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
No, we live in a world of sin.

>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
There is no way to know this. But for practical purposes, no.

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Depends what you mean by natural law. He is above all physical laws since he wrote them for this material universe, tiny and insignificant in the scope of God. However, God can't do certain things, because doing those things are undoable for example, making a squared circle or "a rock that God can't lift" or a true falsehood exc. As for the second question, is studying the sistine chapel equal to studying Michaelangelo?

>>14946824
Cradle Catholic reporting in
>is Hell forever?
Yes
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
No way of knowing. It's up to the grace of God. We can't even guess at the answer because we don't have anything close to his divine wisdom and understanding of the hearts of men.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Again, this is up to the grace of God. It is possible that they can go to heaven, but we can't even decide if our mothers will go to heaven when they die.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
I would assume heaven, but I've never really pondered this question or cared to research it.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They don't have souls in the way the humans do. Iirc Aquinas argued that they have a "lesser" soul which explains an animal's animacy, but that it's not on the same level as our soul because we were made in the image of God, and they weren't. I'd just argue that they don't have souls at all.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Idk
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
I don't see any reason to believe that God has made multiple world's/universes/existences
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
The laws of nature flow from the universe, and the universe flows from the Lord. I do believe studying to be a form of holy persuit. As we study the creation of the Lord, we better understand the Creator Himself
>does God own humankin?
Yes
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. We owe all right praise to the Lord for He is our creator. We owe him our contrition because we are sinners and have chosen to live in a fallen state rather than accepting His love.

>>14955122
The God of Abraham.

>>14957807
thank you for your jew knowledge. I actually learned something on this site for once.

>>14946824
>is Hell forever?
Yes
>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
We do not know. The fact that Christ died on the cross for the salvation of ALL means that the salvation of every person is POSSIBLE. But that is by no means likely, and it is by the devotion of the Church that those outside may be saved.
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Virtuous is not the criteria of salvation, but it is possible that they can be saved.
>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
Heaven.
>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
They have 'non-rational souls' and the more intelligent ones have agency. They exist for the glory of God.
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
We don't know (my vote is no).
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
No.
>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
He is above them and is the author of them. To know God through the study of nature is possible, it is called natural theology.
>does God own humankin?
Yes.
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Yes and no. It really depends on whether your soteriology is based on the analogy of restitution.

>>14960383
So the Triune God? Both Jews and Muslims deny our God.

>>14946824
LDS here
>is Hell forever?
For the vast majority of people no. The concept of eternal hell in the church only applies to the Satan and those who fell from heaven with him. A question I actually have is if those fallen spirits will get a chance to return to the side of Christ after his second coming.
After death immediately there are two sorting stations, Paradise and Spirit prison. The righteous go to paradise and also preach the gospel to those in prison.
After the return and judgement of Christ the souls of men will be judged to one of three degrees of glory. Pic related

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
The bottom kingdom is still nicer than Earth. The wicked will still suffer after death but if you chose to come to this Earth and currently have a body you'll have a very nice time eventually. Only those who accept Christ and go through the covenants and ordinances will go to the top sphere

>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell
If they live good lives but don't accept Christ here or in the next life they'll probably end up in the middle, which is very nice

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
I promise you Anon all children are alive in Christ and to heaven to be with Christ

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Everything was created spiritually before it was physically, so yes your pets will be chilling in the next life. Agency is linked to intelligence, so it depends

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
This world is incredibly sinful and fallen, other worlds with children of God do officially exist. Their status is unknown

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God is the master of the universe but we can assume he acts within its laws, higher laws that we not understand
>does God own humankin?
Does a father own his children?
>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
I feel I do

>>14946824
t. muslim

>is Hell forever?
for nonbeliever yes. for a sinful believer it is temporary

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
very very very few muslim go to heaven
sinful muslim spend possibly thousands years first in hell
it was believed that
loyal Jews during the time of Moses, and loyal Christian during the time of Jesus,
and isolated cases of contemporary Christians will still go to heaven
-also the loyal follower of all the prophets prior to Muhammad (Noah, Ezekial, Job, Abraham, Adam, etc) Too many prophets to mention


>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
there are many arguments had been made about this
i think it is possible that a certain population that haven't been reach by the prophets will go to heaven

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
heaven. All children (before puberty) is considered clean, pure, sinless (they do not considered as responsible for their own action).

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
possibly up for grabs. Animals do not have aql (aqli, aqal; intellect - the ability to have a complex, comprehensive thoughts)only nafs(desire)

>is this the best of all possible worlds?
not sure. we don't know. only God knows
(the multiparallel universe implied by physics could be legit/true or it could be to be just a theory. human don't have the answer - so far)

>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
only God knows
(the multiparralel universe implied by physics could be legit/true or it could be to be just a theory. human don't have the answer - so far)

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
God created the law.
There is an hadith qudsi that describing that mankind is ruled by time,
and God (Allah) is the ruler of time

>does God own humankin?
Yes
Human have free will and desire as a test from God
the fate, everything that happened (plague, fever, graduation, married, going for shopping, timing for each raindrop to reach the leaves, the earth) is order, act, will of God - is also as a test from God
He wanted it when he wants it. Nobody knows why God does thing but we will obey him because will live under/following His creations. Regardless how shitty or how good life is, He is always be presence in everything, He knows everything all the time: whatever in the past, future and the present.
There is no different to Allah on what is in the past, future, or present. (It'll possibly will be just a meme to Him).

>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
Yes. Because God ordered a list of things for the mankind to follow.
But God does forgive ALL MISTAKE from ALL PAST.
But if you do not change your behavior before you die or do not repent before you die, then it is up to Him to decide.
even if you unable to do good, if you have a good intention, the good intention is still will be rewarded.

>>14954573
>Judas was not sentenced to Hell by God for his betrayal, he rejected forgiveness and is in Hell because he continues to reject God.
this is an enormous idea and very inspiring

>>14960695
>There is an hadith qudsi that describing that mankind is ruled by time,
>and God (Allah) is the ruler of time
I heard of this only I was told that Allah says "I am time", which is significantly different

>>14960711
>I heard of this only I was told that Allah says "I am time", which is significantly different
you are not wrong
but it meant to be taken figuratively I think.
I couldn't cited the source as of now, but if I'm not mistaken there's hadith that is claiming that the past and the future in indifferent to Allah, and scholars were implying that the time is itself a makhluk (a being, a creature, a creation), at least this is how they view time according to Islamic metaphysics. (different scholars might have different interpretation)
>(there is a few hadith about time that all lead to a different discussions however)

my personal stance in this would be the same as what that had been described that time is a malleable, observable creation

>>14946824
H

>>14946824
Theistic Satanist

Until we are strong enough to rip through the gates of heaven.
Even
Yes
Heaven
Unsure
No
No
Dictate
No
No

God is not evil for allowing eternal damnation. He makes you and gives you the choice to live a pious life and go to heaven or ignore wisdom and go to gehhena after the second coming.

If you don't ask for God's help meaning you consciounsly didn't want help then you'll end up in hell. God respected your free will of not wanting his help and thus you through your own free will as a FULLY independent agent ended up in hell.

One can even argue that God is good for allowing eternal damnation as he ultimately respects our free will even to the point of losing us, Glory to Him.

Amen.

>>14958437
accounts of Elder Porphyrios, has nice tips on prayer.

Orthochads what version of the bible do I read?

>>14946824
ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CHAD REPORTING IN

First of all, ignore the following kikes:
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>>14947191
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>>14960788
>>14962465
>>14962484
>>14962715
>>14962484


>is Hell fore-
Yes.
>do most people go to Hel-
I don't know.
>do virtuous pagans go to Hea-
Hell.
>do unborn children go to Hea-
Heaven.
>do animals and plants have so-
No.
>is this the best of all possible wo-
No.
>has God created an unlimited amount of wor-
That is not something we can know.
>is God above the laws of na-
>does God own humankin?
No.
>do sinners owe Go-
Yes.

Not that it matters.

Remember to ignore the following kikes:
>>14946912
>>14947191
>>14947363
>>14948115
>>14949327
>>14949399
>>14949942 (You)
>>14950111
>>14950111
>>14950233 Triune God? Both Jews and Muslims deny our God.
>>
Anonymous 03/27/20(Fri)06:39:23 No.14960542▶
File: The_Plan_of_Salvation.jpg (148 KB, 1080x750)
148 KB
>>14946824 (OP)
LDS here
e are two sorting stations, Paradise and Spirit prison. The righteous go to paradise and also preach the gospel to those in prison.
After the return and judgement of Christ the souls of men will be judged to one of three degrees of glory. Pic related

>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
The bottom kingdom is still nicer than Earth. The wick>>14950449
>>14950597
>>14950597
>>14950597
>14950638
>>14950597
>>14951274
can even argue that God is good for allowing eternal damnation as he ultimately respects our free will even to the point of losing us, Glory to Him.

Amen.
>>
Anonymous 03/27/20(Fri)15:21:06 No.14962484▶
>>14958437
accounts of Elder Porphyrios, has nice tips on prayer.
>>
Anonymous 03/27/20(Fri)16:14:17 No.14962715▶
Orthochads what version of the bib
>>14962465
>>14962484
>>14962715
>>14962484

>>14946824
Muslim perspective

>>is Hell forever?
For non-muslims yes
>>do most people go to Hell or Heaven?
99/100 go to hell.
>>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Virtuous pagan is an oxymoron in Islam. They go to hell
>>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
It depends on whether they acquired a soul. I believe there a specific time during pregnancy given where babies are given a soul. In the case of a baby with a soul dying, there will be a special test for them on the day of judgment
>>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Allah will destroy all planets and animals on the day of judgment
>>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Not sure what you mean
>>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?

“Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds".

Islam teaches that it’s the sins of humanity that causes imperfections.

>>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Above the laws of nature
>>does God own humankin?
Yes we are slaves to Allah
>>do sinners owe God because of their sins?
They oppress themselves first and foremost. Allah doesn’t need you. It doesn’t matter to him if you’re a sinner or saint. But you need Allah.

>>14946824
>Do most people go to Hell or Heaven? The bible states only the innocent and also the good ones will go into heaven.

But the bible makes it clear that salvation can't be bought; so things like, donating money to church, helping the poor with the sole intention of being saved, will probably and most likely not get you saved.

The bible also states that most people will be following the fake religions, they also won't be saved.

It also mentions that his words will reach everyone's ear in the world: this refers to christ's words.

It also says that people will deny christ not once, but twice. This refers to people rejecting christianism in modern days, despite of all christ's words coming to fruition

So Most people get burnt. Only the innocent(people who have no idea) and the true good ones are saved.

>do unborn children go to Heaven or Hell?
>do virtuous pagans go to Heaven or Hell?
Out of our domain. God made it clear that it is him who's going to decide who gets in and who gets out. He never made clear which people exactly. But he made it crystal clear that it's not our business to decide that for him.

>do animals and plants have souls and agency of their own or do they only exist because they're up for grabs?
Pre-Noah's Ark: People are only allowed to eat vegetable, fruits and seeds.

Post-Noah's Ark: God Allows people to eat meat. Animals exist with the sole reason of serving people. With both their flesh and soul, not to be mistaken with cumming inside their buttocks, that's still not allowed. unless they repent their ways, Furries will burn in hell.

PART 2
>is this the best of all possible worlds?
Yes, #MAGA.

>has God created an unlimited amount of worlds different from own? Is it possible that those worlds are less than perfect?
Out of our bounds. BUT god wouldn't really need to create that many many worlds, he can foresee all outcomes of his choices and make changes accordingly.

We're the best of his creations, since we were all made in his image; which means that if we strive in the path that has been enlightened for us by God we will retain our divine-like traits, like intelligence and beauty for example.

While people striving further away from god's path, will lose those divine-like traits. Since they're giving up on god, they're also giving up the idea that they were made in his image. Thus losing all their rights for denying god.

We can see that happen in our world around us when you look at countries/civilizations who have literally denied christianism & god principles that have been laid out to us and that we accepted in western society.

Mind you that the western society has started falling into that same direction those countries also have, and we're slightly showing up signs of less intelligence, less fitness, less aptitude, etc etc etc.

This can be observed Back in the days people like Leonardo da Vinci were very uncommon, but not rare; In modern days people like him don't only exist anymore, they are considered Legendary Myths, despite him being a real dude at his time.(Research his Sotry)

>is God above the laws of nature or does he dictate them? Is studying nature equal to studying God?
Yes. He is god afterall.

>Does god own humankind?
He is more than just that.
He is our master and without his guidance, western society wouldn've been able to succeed on top of other civilizations who strived away from him.

>Do sinners owe God because of their sins?
In Orthodox Christianism, there is no original sin.
Original Sin was created by catholicism in order to justify it's fusion with Paganism; Paganism being every other thing that God stands against.

Today Catholics are hailing Gretta ThunderBS as the new Hail Mary.
Today Catholics are selling out Miracles and Salvation.
Today Catholics are worshipping Statues of fake gods and fake human saints.
Today Catholics are also preaching about Globalism, which is something Orthodox Christians have always been ahead of time regarding to a Global Leader that will promise world peace, but bring destruction and poverty.

With that they're also worshipping Karl Marxist Communism, which was originally conceived as an atheist godless "religion" where man marks itself as the ultimate leader of it's goal. When history has clearly shown otherwise: godless societies have never been able to evolve into civilization.

Christianism is to be blamed for all the people turning to Modern Atheism and Modern Karl Marxism; They're working more as an anti-christ controlled group, than for christ and it's people.

Also, posting tomboys because angels.

>>14963884
>Do most people go to Hell or Heaven?

The bible states only the innocent and also the good ones will go into heaven.

FIX'D

>>14963884
>Christianism is to be blamed...
I meant Catholicism

FIX'D >.<

Here's an extra tomboy to compensate for my mistake.

PART 3: Just to complement the last paragraphs.
----------
Modern Catholicism is to be blamed for all the people turning to Modern Atheism and Modern Karl Marxism; They're working more as an anti-christ controlled group, rather than christ and it's people. They're serving the poor underserving ones, instead of the christians in need. They do that while Orthodox Christianism states that we should be saving our own first, before saving the unwilling ones. This is not being done by the Modern Catholic Church under Francis Pope. Instead, christians have been literally thrown amongst the Hyenas in order to survive in between the globalists, the communists, the atheists, etc etc etc. That's what modern catholic church is doing.

>>14958437

Bernard Ruffin biography of Padre Pio is *excellent*, highly recommended.

https://www.amazon.com/Padre-Pio-C-Bernard-Ruffin/dp/0879736739

Well-researched, and well-written.

As for other modern saints, the diary of Sister Faustina is great, as is Therese of Lisieux's memoir.

https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Soul-Diary-Sister-Faustina-Kowalska/dp/0944203043

https://www.amazon.com/Story-Soul-Lisieuxs-Autobiography-Translated/dp/0935216383