/lit/ - Literature

people are reading it

>>14934985
I'm just here to claim it's been debunked
Don't ask me how or why because I haven't read either the book or its rebuttal or the author's response to the rebuttal, but it is definitely bullshit.

>>14935255
Based desu

>>14935255
Counter-Currents wrote an impressive multi-part piece on the discussion between Nathan Cofnas and Macdonald on their website.
>https://www.counter-currents.com/2018/05/on-the-kevin-macdonald-nathan-cofnas-debate-part-1/
Cofnas read these and comments in the comment section, bitching about details and page numbers, unwilling to admit defeat by both Macdonald and Spencer J. Quinn.
>Nathan Cofnas pic related

>>14935512
For the lolz

>>14935512
>>14935546
It is very strange how Macdonald's books got praise for the first two volumes where he was ambiguous about his opinions about Jews and it was interpreted as praise, but once he took a more critical tone in the third volume or at least made it clear he wasn't praising Jews at all, the praise became outright hatred and immediate dismissal of everything he said.

Wikipedia says he is an anti-semitic conspiracy theorist

"Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) claims of MacDonald that "he put the anti-Semitism under the guise of scholarly work... Kevin MacDonald's work is nothing but gussied-up anti-Semitism. At base it says that Jews are out to get us through their agenda... His work is bandied about by just about every neo-Nazi group in America."[34]

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) includes MacDonald in its list of American extremists, "Extremism in America", and wrote a report[35] on MacDonald's views and ties. According to the ADL, his views on Jews mimic those of antisemites from the late 19th and early 20th centuries.[36]

MacDonald claims the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) "has initiated a campaign against me".[37] He holds, among other complaints, that SPLC publicity, such as "The Thirteen Scariest People in America"[38] and "Promoting Hate—California Professor is Font of Anti-Semitism",[39] contain misrepresentations and distortions of his work. MacDonald has disputed the report that he has called for Jewish quotas and Jewish taxation, saying this was a hypothetical scenario taken out of context"

>>14935888
>wikipedia
>the ADL
>the SPLC
lol

>>14934985
Tenuous evo-psych. Not surprising it's popular on 4chan since you people seem to go in for that stuff in every other sphere.

>>14935777
really makes the noggin joggin' innit

>>14935898
>Neo-nazi groups on the other hand!
yeah ok /pol/. people only bring him up because he supports their ideology. thats a pretty bad faith argument

>>14935921
Did you even read what they said? They said he sounds like he's saying things similar to what older groups said about Jews.

That's not a fucking argument lmao. I wonder why people would tend to say similar things about a group. They don't even try to address whether what he's saying is true.

>>14935777
It wasn't. He was always known as a neo-nazi ever since his first book. You can't just claim things and make believe that they are true

" The Nation reported that MacDonald's 2004 Understanding Jewish Influence: A Study in Ethnic Activism "has turned MacDonald into a celebrity within white nationalist and neo-Nazi circles."

>>14935933
>older groups like the literal nazis
give it a rest

>>14935937
his first book in the series was published in 94 retard
>>14935942
Not an argument lol. Try to argue against what he's saying rather than 'hurr durr le nazis said so can't be true'

>>14935958
Its all in bad faith if the author is a white supremacist and speaks at holocaust denial rallies

>>14935933
They're claiming he's an anti-semite, which is not a truth-apt ideology. The question 'is anti-semitism true?' does not make sense because anti-semitism is a feeling or prescriptive command rather than a truth-apt proposition.

As to why they are responding so aggressively to what he wrote, it's because they believe this type of thinking is what led to the Holocaust. Which they are right about.

>>14935968
>I-I don't have to defend my beliefs because he is a bad meanie
ok lmao

>>14935975
Again, LITERALLY not an argument
>you are this vague strawman who only believes things for irrational and hateful purposes therefore i don't have to reply to the content of your assertions
Just fucking pathetic
>if i reply to your arguments the holocaust will happen
even more pathetic

>>14935976
"Bad faith can exist not only in an individual, but in entire systems of knowledge.

Within the pseudoscience of racial eugenics, bad faith is proposed to be a motivator for self-defensive action against an objectified race of people to justifiably uphold a desire for racial supremacy; e.g., a minority group of whites who believe that blacks are inferior in bad faith to motivate the preservation of their white-race differences, while their faith is motivated in fear of elimination from within a volatile racial environment. Bad faith racial supremacist's beliefs are studied in African American Studies. In Nazi Germany, companies knowingly competed for the manufacture of efficient ovens for the concentration camps to make money with the manufacturers justified in their actions by self-deception, but intentionally so as to be in bad faith. A person can intentionally self-deceive by being inauthentic or insincere, as the Nazis organization did in holding their beliefs to justify their eugenics and genocide."

>>14936002
>your hidden motives must be the reason you believe what you do, not the mountains of evidence you are presenting, therefore i dont have to respond to your arguments
You are SO fucking bad at arguing it's unreal

>>14936016
There are no mountains of evidence made by non-neo nazis is the thing. You are the ones reaching out to a single fringe psychologist for your claims. Where are the other psychologists reaching the same conclusions huh?

>>14935994
People have responded though. What are you talking about?

>>14936042
The mountains of evidence was about race differences which that quote mentioned.

As for MacDonald's stuff about Jews, you still have to respond to what he's actually saying. Attacking his character to invalidate his assertions without addressing their content is ironically exactly the 'bad faith' you are accusing him of. You know it's a shitty, weaselly non-argument that you would immediately pounce on if someone did it to a person or group you identify with, you know and yet you use it anyway, you convince yourself it's justified here.

>>14936051
Im responding to the ludicrous contention that if you identify MacDonald as an 'antisemite', some psychological type who is apparently incapable of honesty, then you can discard everything he has said.

This is the level of argument I would expect from a small child

Anyone sumrise his points? I don't read.

>>14936066
Yet you dismiss sources like Wikipedia and the ADL. Curious

>>14936125
I explained why the ADL statement is trash, they just tarred him by association with other groups, without explaining why they disagree with what either he or those other groups said.

>>14936138
He's been widely criticized by academics and researchers as scientifically unsupportable.

Read the large criticism part
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Critique_series

>>14935888
Mark Potok also keeps post it notes on his wall of the percentage of whites in the US population by year

>>14936104
Again, Counter-Currents have a good series on both the content of the book and a recent debate between the author and some faggot>>14935512

>>14936175
And?

>>14936159
I'm aware of these criticisms and find them mostly to be on the same level of rigor as our friends at ADL. The only solid criticism of the basic points in CoC I've seen is that his evolutionary psychology theory is speculative and unsupported, which I agree with.

If you have some particular point you'd like to make then go ahead.

>>14936183
Maybe not the most unbiased source of information

>>14935937
I'm talking about the trilogy which began in the 90s
The first 2 were very well received

>>14936159
Stop grasping at the roots on the cliff: your other points have been invalidated and now you're positing Wkipedia of all sources as your defense. Look at all the supposed criticisms:
>Disregard this author
>MacDonald is wrong... because he's wrong

>>14934985
>Jews are super ethnocentric
>The fact that American Jews are 50% intermarried still proves they are ethnocentric because they want to marry powerful gentiles. His example was Chelsea Clinton married a Jewish Billionaire
this is literally his argument

>>14935975
Whether or not his way of thinking led to the holocaust is one thing, but we should still be able to address the question of how many of his claims are true.
Call him whatever you want and the guy may be an asshole irl, I don't know, but his books make specific claims, and they've been very very poorly rebutted, especially by academic standards. He got praise for the same basic theory when they thought he was praising Jewish culture, so we should be able to expect some serious discussion about specific claims he makes now that they think it's all bullshit.
I did actually read the books years ago, so can anyone give me a specific point in the book they disagree with or claim is objectively false? I'm genuinely interested in actual discussion here from either side because almost nobody actually reads this fucking book and all the criticism I've heard so far has been shit that he didn't actually say in the book, or stuff which he clarifies if you read on.
This is /lit/ where people read, so I am looking forward to some riveting discussion.

>>14936192
Im responding to the ludicrous contention that if you identify Mark as an 'biased', some psychological type who is apparently incapable of honesty, then you can discard everything he has said.

This is the level of argument I would expect from a small child

>>14936250
They're not equivalent here since one is making the argument which should be able to be attacked on it's own merits whereas the other only criticizes the argument, and mostly by ad hominem

>>14936250
fair enough but I did reply to what Mark actually said as well

>>14935026
I like this meme but I don't know where it came from

>>14936220
>t. didn't read the book

>>14936104
tl;dr Jews are ethnocentric and act in ways that benefit the Jewish people as a whole; they display in-grouo preference.

>>14936326
What's the problem with doing that?

>>14936059
Well put

>>14936326
It posits that a great number of 20th century intellectual movements have been developed by Jewish academics as a survival strategy against antisemitism, and that in many cases the few non-Jewish academics involved were picked specifically because they were not Jewish.

It is impeccably researched, no matter what people think of his conclusions.

His first two books are pretty universally praised

>>14936568
Source?

>>14936571
BloodAndSoil.net and GhostOfOdin.com

>>14936125
Pretty obvious desu, Wikipedia is just an open encyclopedia edited by literal nobodies, and the ADL is an agenda-driven lobby

>>14936571
Ifuckinglovehitler.com

>>14936673
And you neo-nazi's don't have an agenda by bringing up this literal who that just happens to spouse your anti-semitic opinions?

>>14934985
Based

>>14936700
Well his arguments make sense you see. This concept of evaluating arguments rather than attacking the person who says them, or looking for ulterior motives, is clearly foreign to you.

>>14936581
KEK

>>14936717
Its literally pseudo science that is basically denounced by every other scientist working in psychologist. "Jewish" isn't even a real thing

>>14936726
Woah these people visiting the white house just proves the /pol/ schizos right!

>>14936744
>>14936832
What are you people even doing on 4chan?

>>14936744
Jewish is such a real thing you have to take a DNA test to get Israeli citizenship.
How hard is it for people to give specific criticism instead of saying "well wikipedia says other psychologists didn't like it so it must be bullshit and he's a retard (even though they liked him until book 3 and even though some like Pinker refused to even read the book)"

>>14936870
This isn't your neo-nazi safe space

>>14934985
I've read it and I'm still a philosemite.

>>14936910
Shouldn't it be semitophile?

>>14936880
That blatantly isn't true, did /pol/ tell you that?
https://www.visa-law.co.il/immigration-to-israel-and-israeli-citizenship/

>>14936945
Surprisingly, no, I actually just decided I felt like saying it but have no idea where I heard it from. I didn't fact check it and I wont click on your link but I'll assume it's false now.
Maybe it was youtube once, idk

>>14936945
>>14936998
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-high-court-allows-dna-testing-to-prove-judaism-1.8439615

>>14937016
Yeah they allow it, that doesn't mean you have to to get in

>>14936220
One thing I don't get about these anti-semites are that they will claim you aren't white if you so much as race mix once yet Jewish people are Mediterraneans who have been mixing with other ethnic groups for centuries and yet they claim even if you are like 10% Semitic you are Jewish. In a lot of cases you can't even tell the difference between them and any other white person. Thats why people like MacDonald are bogus, you can't even properly define who and who isn't Jewish

>>14937099
jewish identity is a schelling point for organization, it's a rather unique ethno-cultural mix

>>14937118
I don't think Jewish people really think of themselves as any different than other people in their country. Why don't Irish people or whatever do the same?

>>14937141
I think Jews have a complex identity that allows them see themselves as both an eg. American and Jewish, depends on the individual of course and it's probably less true now than it ever was before.

They wouldnt even exist if this werent true they would have just merged with their various host nations centuries or thousands of years ago. Gypsies do this too but they're completely dysfunctional.

>>14934985
Great book, it really opened my eyes. All the pieces fell into place, so much finally made sense. Required reading.

It got btfo'd by Cofnas ages ago. MacDonald's response has been nothing but cope and cringe

>>14937099
>Thats why people like MacDonald are bogus, you can't even properly define who and who isn't Jewish

>>14935888
>>14935921
>>14935942
>>14935937
>>14935968
>>14936002
>>14936042
>>14936183
>>14936250
I wonder who's behind these posts

>>14937099
>>14937141
>>14937204
Jewish people pretend to be white when it's convenient and then they go back to being Jewish to serve their own interests

>>14937581
Jewish people are white

>>14937597

Jewish people and their related religions are the parasites that will end the world.
Should have gassed them before they got nukes

>>14936159
I have never seen a wikipedia page with a larger critique section. It really shows how much they hate this book. For the record though, I like Jews quite a lot. They are overrepresented in positions of influence but ordinary Jews tend to be good people in my experience.

>>14936042
A "non-neo nazi" bringing forth mountains of evidence would be branded a neo nazi. How can you not see the flaw in your logic?

>>14934985
You mean the part where he says Jews are predisposed to act a certain way? Huge generalization to the max and a brainlet take.

>>14936342
It's a 5th Holocaust to point out Jewish nepotism.

>>14939317
Even putting that aside he doesn't really have a great understanding on how genetics effects someones personality.

>>14937099
Jews are one of the best defined ethnicities in the world actually

>>14935937
>>14935937
>MacDonald is a neon-nazi
lolololololol
You clearly havent listened to any of the debates between white separatists and Christians. He thinks a mouse in a barn becomes a horse.

>>14937357
lol

>>14936342
Their agenda clashes with the interests and aspirations of the gentile they subvert.
If anyone is doing something wrong, it's the good goyim not throwing them out.

>>14940941
MacDonald is an openborderite? Is that not a Jewish a scheme?

>>14940941
Are you sure? The guy seems pretty definitely a white nationalist type at the very least

>>14936342
Absolutely nothing, but I'm not Jewish and if I display in-group preference, I'll be punished for it, despite Jews being foreigners in my homeland, and this being my homeland.

>>14941656
He believes that all people who convert to Christianity are Christians, and believes the term White is a false label that plays into Jewish power.

White Separatists however will point out that their Christianity doesnt empower Ayrans but weakens them infront of all people allowing them to be overpowered, especially by Jews.

>>14935888
The ADL was made to cover a child rape case