[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature


View post   

File: 11 KB, 289x445, serveimage (13).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14844529 No.14844529 [Reply] [Original]

Refute it.

>> No.14844535

Heroin

>> No.14844538

>>14844529
I have never heard anyone who never existed say that it was better that way

>> No.14844551

>>14844529

You refute it by not being an incel.

>> No.14844560

>>14844551
But you can be an incel and still think life is worth living

>> No.14844614

>>14844529
Death has no value without life, or at least its value is made worse, just as life needs death to have its proper value. It is good to suffer, because that is the only way we could understand the goodness of non-existence. Meaning created from opposites, a beautiful synthesis

>> No.14844618

>>14844529
There is no asymmetry. He says absence of pleasure isn't bad, yet he says absence of pain is good. An absence is an absence. There is no goodness or badness in absence. His arguments also presuppose hedonism (in suffering being inherently bad) so just read any anti-hedonism text anyway.

>>14844614
Horrible post. Very basic arguments against Benatar that don't expose the underlying contradiction in his arguments.

>> No.14844655

the eastern religions make antinatalism irrelevant. antinatalism is all description of the problem with no way to fix it

>> No.14844684

>>14844618
>Very basic arguments against Benatar that don't expose the underlying contradiction in his arguments.
I don’t care to read his arguments. Even if I considered the ethics of reproduction, I would still have a child, since that would benefit me. My point is that death and life are complements, that is what the world has intended for us.

>> No.14844692

Corpus Hermeticum

>> No.14844702

>>14844529
I don't have to. I have testicles.

>> No.14844703

Suffering isn't that bad.

>> No.14844706
File: 80 KB, 821x767, 1578671905415.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14844706

>>14844692
As in. If morality exists, then necessarily God exists, God created us, to not create is to go against what is fundamental to reality: Generation.

>> No.14844725

I'm an antinatalist but not for any logical reason. I just don't want to create another creature that's going to die. Once you are born, death is inescapable.

>> No.14844739

>>14844725
That life is now already dead. While you could made it alive, meaning is not permanence.

>> No.14844744

>>14844739
I'm not concerned with the states of life and death, but with the physical and mental process of dying. I don't have a problem with being dead, if that makes sense.

>> No.14844748

>>14844744
What is existence without suffering? It is worse than death.

>> No.14844766

>>14844748
très basé et poetique

>> No.14844775

>>14844529
>Lives

>> No.14844784

>>14844766
This doesn't mean anything to me. I don't see how my existence is given meaning by dying in excruciating pain in a hospital bed, for example.

>> No.14844786

>>14844784
Meant for >>14844748

>> No.14844788
File: 150 KB, 1029x1455, 894984984.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14844788

>>14844784
Let me simplify his thought. Not feeling is worse than feeling. Our existence is a gift and some may say its brief duration is what makes it even better.

>> No.14844798

>>14844788
Again, this means nothing to me. I would rather not feel anything than feel pain. I would rather never be born than be born.

>> No.14844802

>>14844529
Everyone knows about the old Greek saying that “it is better for man never to have been,” but the Jewish reply is not as well known: “yes, but that rarely happens.”

>> No.14844808

>>14844798
That's cool bro. Drink yourself into oblivion since that is what you yearn for.

>> No.14844812
File: 16 KB, 578x433, 75046984-D470-44A3-BEDF-B1A08806394B.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14844812

>>14844706
>If morality exists, then necessarily God exists

>> No.14844818

>>14844808
See, this is the exact issue. The only way out of it is through dying. But what I want to avoid is dying (though I also don't want to exist eternally). Being born is a prison and I don't want to make anyone else endure this. The "kill yourself lol" response misses the entire point of what the problem is. For me it's not a problem that can be solved.

>> No.14844833
File: 3 KB, 182x277, 1552522376837.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14844833

>>14844529
The foundation for living is "The Foundation for Exploration".

>> No.14844838

>>14844818
Look I'm trying to help you out of this nihilistic trap yet you keep circling back to being immobilized by life draining thoughts. Your soul is not well and you are the one who pollutes it. There is light and darkness. You have the choice of where you reside. I truly hope you can get your mind out of this depressive slumber.

>> No.14844859

>>14844838
Have you ever watched a person waste away and die? Maybe you have, I'm not trying to claim some unique experience for myself, but that's what made me understand it, that such a thing is going to happen me. Maybe I'll get lucky and die instantaneously, or maybe I'll be unlucky and die in much worse agony, but at some point I will have to die. It's not something that I can simply ignore or move past with some platitude, it's inescapable reality.

>> No.14844872

>>14844859
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Essays_of_Montaigne/Book_I/Chapter_XIX
Please read this essay. I have watched family members pass away and I do know of the pain but you must overcome it. To give you another read, check out Novalis' biography. His fiancée died shortly after his little brother yet his grip on life never faltered besides the exact moment of their death.

>> No.14844880

>>14844872
That a family member died isn't really my problem. I mean, I cared about them, but it wasn't particularly painful for me. I'll bookmark the essay and give it a read later.

>> No.14844944

>>14844788
>Kill yourself, you'll regret it.
You Kieerkegaard fanboys have yet to justify this one.

>> No.14844963

>>14844529
No problemo, but I don't even have to do it :
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/33547929.pdf

>> No.14845009

>>14844963
>If you don't exist you can't feel pain.
>AND THAT'S A BAD THING!
Wow, Benatar really was destroyed here.

>> No.14845956

>>14844529
Refute what? A position built from the juvenile understanding of ethics that is utilitarianism?

>pain bad :(
>pleasure good :)
>absent both is neutrality

>> No.14846393

I think many do not get the asymmetry. It is not a logical asymmetry, but an axiological one; an asymmetry of value. It says that:
The presence of bad things are bad
The presence of good things are good
The absence of bad things are good
The absence of good things are not bad
The asymmetry is that we don't think that the absence of good things is bad because there is nobody there to be deprived of them; whereas we think that the absence of bad things is a good thing, even if there is nobody there to enjoy that absence. It is axiologically good that there is an absence of bad there.
I think a good way to settle is is to say that even if the antinatalist is wrong and they failed to bring somebody into existence, nobody is there to be deprived; whereas if the natalist is wrong and they have procreated, they have commited a very major bad. The antinatlist thus always wins.

>> No.14846505

>>14844833
The Sean
He destroyed his cage
yes
YES
The Sean is out

>> No.14846580

>>14844529
While anti natalist arguments are flawed, the amount of extreme suffering in the world justifies it to me personally, I feel like those who argue suffering is good are doing it from the right place but fail to grasp the reality of what suffering means, especially in the developing world. Look at those Filipino kids who are abused on webcams by their parents for sick fucks in the west, any social normativism or moral system that can justify that is fucked.

>> No.14846627

>>14844529
Suffering isn't bad.

>> No.14846642
File: 18 KB, 558x614, bbb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14846642

>>14844529
>there is no point in exercising
>it makes your body tired and muscles ache

>> No.14846664

>>14846642
see this is what's wrong with lots of the pro-natalist pseudo-stoic arguments I see on /lit/, it shows the insular privileged lifestyle of most of the people here that they think "working out" is suffering. Suffering is rape, mutilation, murder and the millions who suffer from PTSD from being the victim of and witnessing truly awful shit. The world is a pretty sick place. There's nothing wrong with the "good" kind of suffering which is really just learning self-discipline and endurance. This does not justify human existence or the massive amount of real, incurable suffering that accompanies it.

>> No.14846673

>>14844529
poop lol

>> No.14846680

>>14844529
>Benatar means Attar's son. Attar is the Arabic for "chemist/apothecary". The Hebrew equivalent Rokeach and the respective German term, Apotheker, also became Jewish surnames. Atar families are documented in Spain since the 14th century. Attar is recorded as a Jewish family name in Egypt in 1155 and in France in 1400, and Ibn Attar in the Netherlands and Benattar in Morocco in the 16th century. Attar is documented as a Jewish surname in Arles, France, in 1400 with Cregut Attar.

>> No.14846691

>>14846664
I was making an analogy. Do you happen to live in the third world to be so heavily affected by such rampant amount of death and rapes?

>> No.14846745
File: 72 KB, 1000x997, 3455666316677884.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14846745

>>14846580
>P1 Having kids is permissible
>P2 There is extreme suffering in the world
>C Abusing kids must be permissible

>> No.14847354
File: 15 KB, 333x499, 31qyK528FEL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14847354

>>14844529
blocks your path