/lit/ - Literature

I am not even orthodox, but the orthodox and catholics have a concept of both tradition and scripture. Tradition informs the scripture and there are important elements of the faith that aren't necessarily within the Bible. I don't know why you posted this on here though. You are just going to get a petty debate and you could've gotten your question much easier from google

>>14812264
Fuck me, the second one made me upset for a second. Anon, there’s not much you can do against heretics. They have fallen for the Protestant meme. Protestants cannot understand the Bible alone isn’t enough, that you need tradition for Christianity to exists - and that tradition predates the Bible, as there was no Bible in the primitive Church.
I’d say you should pray for their conversion. You could explain to them how the Church really works, but that’d be secondary. You can quote James 2:14-26 if they lean on sola scriptura.

>>14812264
just scream NOOOOO MY HECKIN TRADITIARINOOOO

>and he said unto them, the bible contains the complete truth.
>and they muttered among themselves, saying, what is a bible?

>>14812264
There are effectively three branches of Christianity (and this isn’t even taking into account Christologies, etc.): biblical, church, and gnostic. Charismatic Christians are largely biblical (with experiential worship) so yeah, they are going to have a very different focus if you’re from a traditional orthodox or larger Catholic/Protestant background. Just try and enjoy each other’s takes although I’m quite sure at some point they’ll attempt to convince you you’re ‘doing Christianity wrong’. They have a marked tendency towards zealotry with most things.

t.former RS student

>>14812282
and where would you want me to go, anon? Reddit?

>>14812264
Bless you for the wallpaper kind sir!

>>14812264
Jay dyer

>>14812264
>needing faith
The absolute state of Christcucks.

>>14812264
Ask them how a person of sin can possibly birth someone who is sinless.

>>14812557
ya but then he has to defend the doctrine of the immaculate conception

You should all just calm down about such minor disputes like that and just trust in God as you do according to your own respective traditions. Why do you need to defend your faith from them and why do they need to defend their faith from you? Why do either of you need to convince the other that one of your traditions is right or wrong? You are all Christians who believe in the same God, so that should be what really matters. It's as bizarre as when Shia and Sunni massacre each other or as when Mahayana and Theravada Buddhists dispute whose interpretation is most true. Just like most Christian look at those conflicts and see only Muslims and Buddhists who believe mostly the same exact things, most of the rest of the world look at you and these American born-agains and just see Christians. Just tell them that you would like to simply agree to disagree like you would with any other religious group and that would like to just respect each other as different kinds of Christian.

>>14812569
nvm Forgot the difference of original sin in Rome and ancestral sin in the east

>>14812573
>t. CIA ecumenist

>>14812573
This. When I studied this, I was literally stunned at how intolerant various denominations were of each other. It’s not only Christianity but Judaism and Islam, too. Absolute pig-headedness and just a total refusal to appreciate that these religions are so massive in reach that, of course, you will get variations. But this Anonymous is 100% correct that you can take different routes to get to the same destination and it’s really not hard to accept that. Great post. Very refreshing to see.

>>14812264

Tell him that

1. The scripture is censored heavily and therefore is not the all to be.

2. The new testament is not the word of God.

>>14812817
So where do you get your guidance on how to be a Christian? Biblical Christians are big textual adherents. You can disagree with their interpretations but going so far as to suggest they aren’t Christians is not only incorrect, it’s also entirely retarded. In fact, the ONE commonality ALL +60,000 Christian denominations share is baptism. Baptism is, across all those myriad traditions, the ONE and only thing required to be a Christian. Not books, not churches, not new or ancient sects - just baptism.

>>14812573
>>14812805
Heresy is no good. It all starts with ecumenism and one quick slippery slope later you have women bishops, lgbt marriages, and more. Fuck that.

>>14812264
Ask them:
1. How do they know the bible is the word of God. ?
2. Who were the men that recognized that the bible is the word of God?
3. On what authority did those men who recognized the Holy Scriptures as being legitimate do so?
4. If these men were sufficiently Spirit-lead to recognize the true Scriptures and reject the false ones, why could they not also define the doctrines of faith, the normative way of worship, the ecclesiastical structure etc.

The protties build their entire theology on sola scriptura, all you have to do is make them justify their use of the Holy Scriptures. Obviously we as Orthodox have an even higher view of Scripture than they do, but we have Tradition which informs Scriptures which informs Tradition cyclically. Prots steal the inheritance of the Church and distort it, make poor assumptions, and come to erroneous conclusions. The key to showing them their error is in collapsing their brittle foundation. My advice would be to say all this is a friendly and not hostile tone. As Fr. Seraphim Rose says, insofar as they hold to the basic doctrine of Christianity, we must consider the protestants to be well-intentioned but mislead, not enemies of the Church but those to whom the fullness of the Truth has not yet been revealed. As much as is possible we should treat them as people who will become Orthodox if only we were better representatives of our perfect faith.

>>14813859
>we as Orthodox have an even higher view of Scripture than they do

nope

>>14812264
Ask how they can rely on scripture when they reject the councils which define the canon.

>>14812264
Jay Dyer have repeatedly pointed out that there were saints in the old testament that that they were venerated. I don't remember where though

>>14813816
Actually, the current versions of Timothy and Romans are riddled with post-Pauline interpolations (i.e. not Paul of Tarsus but anonymous authors) precisely because Gnostics (many of them female) were challenging church authorities who didn’t like it and saw them as a threat to Constantine’s attempts to control Christianity. The more you know.

>>14815302
Source?

>>14813859
Thanks for your answer, Anon! God bless you!

>>14812817
>>14812805
>>14812573
>>14812557
>>14812534
>>14812285
God bless you all, Anons!

Any Orthodox gnostics here?

>>14812557
well then where did mary come from? were her parents also sinless?

>>14813859
desu burning prots should come back

>>14815378
well its been going on continuously since the war in heaven

>>14815378
>let's burn people
That is not how you Jesus, anon.

>>14813816
>women bishops
I don't see why not, if they are working in line with God and Christ. There are many men bishops who do not carry out their duties properly and even abuse their status for personal gain or wicked things like sex abuse. Many women bishops would be bad bishops just the same as that, but I don't see why good women bishops should not be held as highly as good men bishops.
>lgbt marriages
I would rather they have their marriages recognized and be able to assimilate into mainstream society. Socially-recognized marriage is the proper and correct way to openly be lovers together. When they aren't allowed to openly be lovers together, they will still follow their romantic and sexual desires but end up going to underground gay bars where they can more easily be taken advantage of by actual wicked perverts who know the pressure to stay in the closet will keep their victims from reporting their crimes. Making it possible for homosexuals to live as normal lives as possible means the perverts and sleaze do not get to influence homosexual subculture as much. This is why these perverts and sleaze are so active in being "anti-assimilationist" and wanting to keep LGBT culture "queer" and separate from the mainstream rather than integrated completely.

don't argue with prots who are sola scriptura, it doesn't get you anywhere. Just be like St Seraphim of Sarov and acquire a peaceful spirit and others around you will take notice and ask questions

>>14817063
Profoundly based opinion.

Prayer is worship, Catholics hate the first commandment

>>14812264
>>14812282
I was raised, and returned to, non-denominational/"Bible" Christianity. But, when I was returning, I really did consider going Catholic or Ortho. I admire and respect tradition and ritual and hierarchy, and both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are more serious and less 'feel good', for lack of a better way to put it. There's something that feels, in a sense, more spiritual about both than about the churches I've attended.

With that said, I couldn't make the switch largely for the two reasons mentioned in the OP.

>Saints
It's not that I don't believe in saints in the sense that they were likely very Godly/holy people who were blessed/protected/spoken to/etc. The Bible does mention that there are saints, even if they're not given by name (aside from those that wrote the Gospels), but the idea of praying to those saints is where I draw the line. I just can't understand what the point would be, or how you can just reach out to people in Heaven. God is the be-all end-all of who you petition and praise through prayer, and the only one who can do anything in the end. Why even waste the time to pray to saints? It feels like idolatry.

>Mary
Special, of course, because she's chosen by God to be the virgin mother of Jesus, but the idea, again, that she herself has any kind of potential or power for which and to which I'd pray doesn't make sense to me. Abraham and Sarah aren't deified by Jews, though he is respected, despite being the first of the patriarchs of Judaism. I don't get why she should be worshiped, instead of simply respected and appreciated for her part in the grand plan.

I'd appreciate Orthos or Caths explaining their viewpoints.

>>14817217
People prayed to saints for almost 2000 years before Protestantism came along and had other ideas.

There's a difference between being the father of a religion and being the mother of God.

>>14817217
I’d highly recommend you read An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine by John Henry Newman. You will get a brief history of the Church there, as well as explanations on how Christian doctrine developed - saints and Mary worship included.
The Bible alone isn’t enough, anon. Tradition (Christian doctrine) is what makes the entire thing work.

Not him, but what "happens" when you pray to saints? Is it even "prayer" proper or are you just asking God to deliver a message to a person in Heaven?

>>14817267
>People prayed to saints for almost 2000 years before Protestantism came along and had other ideas.
To be fair, people have done a lot of sinful things before better practices are found. I'm not sure this is really the best argument

>There's a difference between being the father of a religion and being the mother of God.
Sure, but if Jesus was also fully man, as he was fully God, than his mother was a normal woman. Chosen, sure, but see >>14815376
And so on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mary is related to David, yes? Neither David, nor any of his progeny, were ever sinless. Many were good and godly. But not sinless.

>>14817268
Is this easily findable online? I'd, at the very least, be open to reading it.

>>14817352
What this anon posted is also one of things I want to know. How do you make God a simple messenger? And what does it say about a person's connection to God if you can't reach him through prayer? If you need saints to deliver that message?

>>14817217
>>14817352
I have had it explained to me that it is similar to asking for someone to pray to God for you. All saints prayers I've come across seem to be addressed in this manner.

And this is also applied to Mary as well. Most prayers to her, especially the Hail Mary, spend the beginning part of the prayer recognizing her holiness and the last part of the prayer asking for her to pray for us.

It is not so much worshipping the saints and Mary, but rather asking for their intercession.

>>14817352
>>14817696
You do not pray to the saints, you ask them to intercede for you in the eyes of God. Think about it like having a friend in upper management when you are trying to reach the CEO for something. Mary, on the other hand, is even more important - she is related to and loved dearly by the boss.
Read on latria, dulia, and hyperdulia to understand your relationship with God, the Saints, and Mary. It’s way more complex than what I wrote.

>>14817379
The book is really old and famous, you’ll have no trouble finding a copy or a link.

>>14817729
Oh, and, by the way, I cannot stress this enough: if you are going to do anything, pray the rosary. Do it everyday. It’s impossible to state how important and powerful it is.

To the discussion above. Under the strictest interpretation of mortal sin ones prayers are not heard in said state, unless they are begging to reenter the state of grace

>>14817731
cringe

>>14812264
how do you even end up in situations like this. this must be made up.

>>14817758
this happens all the time

>>14817757
>not trusting our Holy Mother
Now that’s cringe, man.

>>14817823
>bro god is like a ceo bro he's too busy you gotta use other channels to get through to him man, he's not omnipotent or anything.

>BROOO god doesn't care about people, you need someone important to ask him something or he won't listen!

>>14817835
I dumbed it down and you still couldn’t understand it. Amazing.

>>14812264
drink a cup of jizz faggot

>>14812264
The funny thing about these protestants, especially the boomers, is they 1) accuse Catholics and E. Orthodox (if they even know the Orthodox exist) of superstitions while being flagrantly superstitious themselves and 2) despise all early christian writings while adoring the contemporary trite that daytime television evangelists shit out. They literally treat it like scripture. (But they'll sneer at the idea of reading the homilies of John Chrysostom, if they even knew who he was!) Oh, and they do have their ersatz "saints" as well, only it's retards like Jimmy Swaggart, Billy Graham, Benny Hin and John Hagee.

I was raised in the "nondenominational christian" crowd, and most of my family is still very much in that vein. My grandfather for instance was recently ecstatic because some rabbi that wrote a facile Joel Osteen-tier commentary about contemporary christianity was coming to visit their "church". Think about that, a rabbi. That's who these people are getting their Christianity from. People who aren't even Christians. And yet when I brought up the early Church Fathers, my grandfather's response was "well what gives them authority" etc. etc. He was also convinced that the early church (the first, second and third century church) was hell bent on "prosecuting the jews"! He also thinks modern ashkenazis are exactly the same as the Judeans who followed Christ and that the modern state of Israel is the same Israel that's in the bible.

The stupidity of these people is almost paralyzing, and I strongly urge you to not bother engaging with them at all. You have to understand, they have no concept whatsoever about anything divine. Their terminology is beyond impoverished. American protestantism is nothing but materialistic capitalism but after you die you get to wear white robes and pluck a harp in McHeaven with Ronald McDonald.

Please don't let them make you question your faith. You have something infinitely more valuable than they do.

>>14817757
The rosary is meditative. There is nothing vain about meditation on the mysterious of Christ

>>14817729
>You do not pray to the saints, you ask them to intercede for you in the eyes of God. Think about it like having a friend in upper management when you are trying to reach the CEO for something
>>14817696
>I have had it explained to me that it is similar to asking for someone to pray to God for you. All saints prayers I've come across seem to be addressed in this manner.

But I think this is ultimately where the problem is for me, outside of it ringing my idolatry bells. Christ came and lived among us. He was human. His sacrifice was done to essentially cut out the middle-man of sacrifice and whatnot, and to form a relationship with us. To take on our troubles. If we all have a personal relationship with Christ - and if, in a sense, Christ himself is our mediator to God - why would we need other interlopers or intercessions? It's one thing to ask your mother to pray to you. It's another to pray to the soul of a dead saint and ask them to do the same.

>>14817920

strawman

i'm a hip-hop christian, i'm down wit da word yo

>>14817063

>>14817981
yo

>>14812573
Because it muddies the meaning and purpose of the faith. Look at how many people believe in retarded shit like the prosperity gospel or evangelicism. They are shallow and heretical interpretations of the word of God, which said absolutely nothing on 'being rich is good' or 'just feel good about yourself bro, trust in Jesus'. True faith requires an appreciation and interaction with the teachings of Jesus, and is not an autistic memorisation of bible passages to quote for every aituation you find yourself in. That's the exact opposite of what the bible is for. And while it would be okay for people to believe in this, what is not okay is the fact that these special breed of retards are also representatives of Christianity as a whole, and you get the popular belief that we're all hypocritical raging assholes like them. It's a bit late to complain now, but I still try and correct perceptions like these whenever possible.

>>14817920
Heresy and ignorance. Helluva drug.

>>14817920
Based.

>>14815330
My year of studying religious studies at degree level. It is academically accepted that one of the main reasons Christianity grew in popularity was because it became influential amongst Romans, and especially Roman women who saw the ephemeral nature of Jesus’ ‘message’ as being available to them, too.

As for Gnostics - this is a loose term that can mean a variety of things, but in relation to early Roman Christianity, it applies to gnostic christology Christians who, again, perceived of Jesus’ teachings as being available to everyone. It’s this group particularly, and especially females in it, that the early church authorities had a big issue with and so they adapted Paul of Tarsus’ writings; specifically in the admonishments that women should not speak in churches, and/or should obey they husbands, etc. These are now known as “post-Pauline interpolations” and it is academically accepted that Paul of Tarsus never wrote them. Feel free to ask me if you have any more questions.

>>14812264
Christ said that you should not follow the traditions of men. By believing in saints you are worshipping humans instead of God.

>>14818003
Based

>>14817758
I am a Romanian man who did his law degree in the UK and went to sit the New York Bar. Am staying with a boomer couple because they had a room to spare and it’s cheap.

>>14817965
The saint is not dead. He/she is a person that achieved what Adam was a before the fall, namely to be made in God’s Image

>>14812264
>saints are not in the bible
wut ahh its probably of thous semantic tards that need the world saint to be in the Bible .
Just ask him who made the Bible and why does he trusts them for the creation of the Bible but not about saints.

>>14819744
>yuropoor lawyer couchsurfing at a new york biblethumper's home
sounds even less believable

>>14819790
Pics to prove. Why would I spend 150 usd a night when I can spend 350 for the whole stay...

>>14819829
bruh you should maybe reconsider your life choices

>>14817965
That’s the thing, Jesus is both human and God. Yes, he came down and redeemed the human race. But don’t get it confused, he isn’t the middleman between you and God - he is God. The Word didn’t become flesh to cut out the middleman either, he came to save us all.
Anyways, you are not praying to the saints the same way you pray to God. When you pray to God, it’s a 1-on-1 with Him. But you are human, you are imperfect. You pray to the saints to help you convey your ideas better. Now, of course, omnipotence and all, God already knows what you want. But in praying to saints you also learn about them, their lives, and improve your ways as you pray to them. You pray to God first, to Mary second, and the saints third. In doing so, you improve. You can worship God in better, more pure ways. Role models and all.
Simply put, we do not need intercessors. But they help. They help a lot. And we need all the help we can get.

>>14818900
That’s not what he said. At all. He said not to worship tradition and not to use it as a loophole.
Protestant logic, every fucking time, man.

>>14818759
You have a book or anything about the subject, though? I’d like to know more about this.

>>14813888
They really do though. Protties insist on the most inane and pointless historical reading of the bible, to the point where they deny it any value other than as a historical record and at times instruction book.

>>14819841
what do you mean?

>>14818759
None of that happened. You shouldn't learn history from a bunch of God hating homo feminazis.

>>14819929
There are loads of academic texts on this; it’s a massive ongoing debate in RS. If you’re serious about actual authors then I recommend Lewis ‘Gnosticism: Ancient Voices, Christian Worlds’ (information-dense but she deals extensively with the pluralism of Romans and how they perceived Christianity in comparison to their own religions), Rudolph: ‘Gnosis: an Ancient Religion’ (one of the leading texts), Walker: ‘Interpolations in the Pauline Letters’ (also).

Other than that, if you have a research gateway at your university, look for anything “post-pauline interpolations”, or “early Christianity in Rome” (circa 200-400 AD)”..

If you just want something very light, there’s this wiki entry that will give a brief overview of the debate (although it’s badly written and referenced): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle_and_women..

And I strongly recommend the OUP’s small introductory texts from the “Very Short Introduction to...” series. This is deceptively-named as they’re very in-depth but designed to be accessible to non-academics. Very well-written and by experts in their fields. So:

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/paul-a-very-short-introduction-9780192854513?cc=gb&lang=en&

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-apocryphal-gospels-a-very-short-introduction-9780199236947?cc=gb&lang=en&#

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/christianity-a-very-short-introduction-9780199687749?cc=gb&lang=en&

The first two touch on the debates briefly but go into the history of especially gnostic groups in the early church and the conflicts, the last is just a very good overview text that anyone interested in the history of Christianity will enjoy.

>>14818759
>"""religious""" studies at degree level
>academically accepted

>>14818759
>studying religious studies at degree level
OH NO NO NO NO NO

>>14821086
Yeah you could do that, or you could read primary sources. But those are going to be disqualified somehow, I'm sure.
I know I for one enjoy getting my knowledge of Plato strictly from tertiary sources written by butch lesbian Angloid materialists in the 20th and 21st century who hate Plato and obviously can't allow the idea that his metaphysics might have any legitimacy at all from the start since it would cancel their worldview so they reduce it like a quaint little "just-so" narrative that flatters their own intellectual impotence.
"Academic texts"; what would we do without them?, other than, you know, read the fucking primary sources for ourselves.

>My year of studying religious studies at degree level.
A whole year! And "at degree level", meaning... not actually at a university or anything, but just on your own browsing wiki articles and reading "Short Intrductions to X"?

>>14821086
>she
OH NO NO NO NO NO

>>14818759
>It is academically accepted that
It is also academically accepted that humans are pure matter and can "change" their gender at will.

>>14819756
>The saint is not dead. He/she is a person that achieved what Adam was a before the fall, namely to be made in God’s Image
Where at all is that described in the Bible or in early teachings? This is the kind of thing I can't jump on with Caths and Orthos

>>14819905
>Anyways, you are not praying to the saints the same way you pray to God. When you pray to God, it’s a 1-on-1 with Him. But you are human, you are imperfect. You pray to the saints to help you convey your ideas better. Now, of course, omnipotence and all, God already knows what you want. But in praying to saints you also learn about them, their lives, and improve your ways as you pray to them. You pray to God first, to Mary second, and the saints third. In doing so, you improve. You can worship God in better, more pure ways. Role models and all.
Simply put, we do not need intercessors. But they help. They help a lot. And we need all the help we can get.
This makes more sense, definitely. And from the very beginning, I absolutely accept that there were saintly people - people literally more holy than thou, people who were blessed in a sense, who were selfless and victimized and did miracles. I get that learning about them is important and that they are people to look up to. But I can't really understand why I would take that jump to praying to them.

Are there any good texts about this? Christian ones, not shitty academic ones like that other anon is trying to peddle.

>>14823608
I wouldn't be able to point you, Anon, sorry. At the end of the day, with the whole saints thing, you should just go and do a pilgrimage to the relics of a saint. On the road there ask God to show the true way, have an open heart and when you get there ask the saint to pray for you. You seem like a true believer and I am sure the Holy Trinity will reveal the truth to you. God bless you, Anon, wherever you are.

>>14812285
Catholic and Orthodox traditions contradict each other in various instances though. They make claims on the same saints but have very different views of where they lived (sometimes different countries).

Also, you can at least acknowledge at a minimum that some Protestants do have valid criticism of Catholic doctrine, and similarly Orthodoxy since both are not compatible and both claim apostolic succession. Orthodoxy and Catholicism also different views on idolatry.

Crucifixes for instance did not exist during Early Christianity, the cross was not used as a symbol for Christianity until after the formal establishment of the Roman Catholic Church which is considered to be after the Roman Empire adopted it. Although there is plenty of evidence suggesting Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not outright a continuation of Early Christisn traditions. Many celebrations, traditions, and so on developed over time.

I'd also like to state that Protestantism has various degrees of views, some which are more aligned with certain Catholic traditions, others are a polar opposite (for instance Anglicanism vs Pentecostalism).

From my understanding for Catholicism, there is debates regarding writings the church claims to have been derived from certain regions, such as the Gospel of Jesus which seems eerily similar to the wishes of the emperors in Rome, to continue exercising their power. Apparently Jesus was an advocate for the pope, even if some of his supposed writings outright contradict biblical scripture. Once more there are valid criticism against Catholic doctrine.

Since I am limited on my knowledge of Orthodoxy, given how it is heavily embeeded with traditionalism, and the similarity it had to catholicism with venetrating saints, theokotos and the mediatrix in Catholicism. I'd assume similar degrees of criticism are equally applicable to Orthodoxy.

Remember both churches tend to publish their own arguements that tend to reuse their own writings as "evidence." It tends to turn into loops of disproving protestant criticism by constantly referencing (let's say for example) a Catholic rebuttal, that references other Catholic writings. Then if someone proceeds to criticize that reference in the rebuttal, it usually is rebutted by referencing another catholic source the just references another catholic rebuttal. It's a never ending cycle of rebuttal referencing other rebuttals that eventually loop.

Now I know many claims of Protestants are also absurd when criticizing Catholicism, and pressumably also Orthodoxy, although I am not referencing to Pentecostal-tier criticism. Remember even Martin Luther was not wanting to create a new sect since he was a Catholic who simply questioned church doctrine, and got hunted down by the church.

To conclude though, I don't believe Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants should fight amongst themselves. We have more in common than we have different, especially when compared to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus

>>14818074
>"Because it muddies the meaning and purpose of the faith. Look at how many people believe in retarded shit like the prosperity gospel or evangelicism. They are shallow and heretical interpretations of the word of God, which said absolutely nothing on 'being rich is good' or 'just feel good about yourself bro, trust in Jesus'"
That's just one of many sects though, similar to how you view them as diminsihing the belief, many see Orthodoxy in the same lense. Also, there are plenty of divisions within Evangelicals that dislike charasmatic christianity, or the prosperity gospel. This isn't limited to your generalization, even within the same sects people debate another. Your sect isn't unique in that regard as all Christian sects have debates within eachother.
>And while it would be okay for people to believe in this, what is not okay is the fact that these special breed of retards are also representatives of Christianity as a whole, and you get the popular belief that we're all hypocritical raging assholes like them
I hope you realize that Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox sects all have similar views of eachother as you are suggesting. In the US, almost all protestant sects see Catholicism as being made up of elitist people who are hypocrites and do not want them as "representatives of Christianity." That isn't any different from what you are claiming of them. Your view isn't unique within Christianity.

>>14819913
>He said not to worship tradition and not to use it as a loophole
He said this on the second part of his comment. It seems like you just read the first part. I hope you realize Catholicism is notorious for cults regarding saint-worship. It's common in Latin America, it can also be seen by some European Catholics who pray directly to Mary to heal them when they visit apparitions. Traditions are also not to be worshipped directly since you aren't supposed to worship a curcifix, statue, and so on. I think you misunderstood his point as I'd assume you agree with all of what I said regarding
>not worshipping traditions
Not to be confused with having traditions as a form of worship
>not worshipping saints

>>14822692
>>14822738
>>14822787
>>14822816
Yup. It’s a commonly-accepted thing in the field that religious people feel really threatened by Religious Studies. Amusing.

>>14824395
>threatened
The people are just laughing at your pozzed retroactively refuted deluded hylic views.

>>14824419
You’re ‘arguing’ dishonestly so I’m largely indifferent, I’m afraid. Do you have any actual questions?

>>14824276
>To conclude though, I don't believe Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants should fight amongst themselves.
This! It's all the same bro! All churches have problems and there is no one truth! We should just focus on bettering the world!

>>14824426
>questions
One does not ask questions of a hylic incapable of providing true non-profane knowledge. A single verse from Guénon (pbuh) is sufficient to retroactively debunk the entirety of your deluded worldview.

>>14824395
Why should they not? Everyone should fear having their traditions relativised to hell.

>>14824437
>Everyone should fear having their traditions relativised to hell.
Brother, do not despair.

>"Those who might be tempted to give way to despair should realize that nothing accomplished in this order can ever be lost, that confusion, error and darkness can win the day only apparently and in a purely ephemeral way, that all partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the greater equilibrium of the whole, and that nothing can ultimately prevail against the power of truth."

>>14824419
>>14824436
>>14824441
Holy based....

>>14812285
>the Bible alone isn't enough
You are actually the heretic.
Also, praying to "Mary" does not predate the events in the bible, it was an idea invented after Christ's death, so whatever tradition you're talking about- which you say predates the Bible- it doesn't involve praying to saints or some dead vessel for Jesus.

>>14824395
>Yup. It’s a commonly-accepted thing in the field that religious people feel really threatened by Religious Studies. Amusing.

>>14812264
Luke 1:28
>And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

>>14824436
You’re an idiot.

>>14824437
That’s a fair point but we don’t. There was a big debate about the methodology on this back in the 60s that was settled eventually to ‘methodological agnosticism’. The field is only interested in the worldviews of those who experience their religions. If you attempt to criticise or traduce those religions in any way, that’s an automatic fail.

>>14812264
>I am a Romanian man
RO: Din cauza crestinocucilor ca tine care sug pula oricarui partid vrea patriarhia a ajuns tara asa cum este
EN: Christcucks like him who cocksuck any politicans the priests shills ruined this country
Reject Christ. Embrace white pride.

>>14824447
>My head cannon tells me you are wrong, so that is that
Cringe bro

>>14823608
>Are there any good texts about this? Christian ones, not shitty academic ones like that other anon is trying to peddle.
I may have recommended it already but An essay on the development of Christian doctrine by John Henry Newman is a great starting point to understand certain things that are not in the Bible but have developed overtime and why they are important, like sainthood and Mariology.

>>14824276
>To conclude though, I don't believe Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants should fight amongst themselves. We have more in common than we have different, especially when compared to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus
I’m sorry, but fuck that. Imagine if Christians said that about Arianism back in the day? Heresy is heresy. Ecumenism can only happen between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

>>14824305
You need to understand the difference between latria and dulia, my dude.

>>14824447
>You are actually the heretic.
>sola scriptura
Oh, for the hundredth time, the Bible is a product of tradition itself. Tradition is the main source of Christianity and it has been since day 1. I’m sorry you cannot see this, I really am. But you could brush up on the Church’s history to understand it.

>>14825257
The Romanian Orthodox Church has its sins, parish priests have their sins, but Our Lord and Saviour said that whoever is sinless shall throw the first stone. I bet that IRL you are just one of those guys that meets up and has a coupe of beers with his buddies and complains about the way the country is. Your ilk is to blame for the state the country is in. I didn't agree with the building of the People's Cathedral from Day 1, but that is what the least of our prolems. You say that the Church is to blame for shilling different political parties, I then ask you this: have you ever been in a church? Because if you did, you would have seen how many people go there: not that many. A few old ladies, some theology students and that's about it.

You know how voting happens in villages? It's always somebody from X political party picking up the old and the sick to vote for them.
You know which age group has the lowest turn out during elections? The smart aleck atheists like you.

In addition to this, you fail that Romania at the moment is nothing but an American economical colony. All that happened in Romania, happened with their will and their blessing. Look at what the National Liberal Party is doing at the moment (privatising healthcare on the down-low). Look at what the nihilistic society has come to and tell me tha the wages of sin are not death. The only way forward for Romania is to make an Alliance with other Balkan countries in order to escape both the EU political sphere and the Russian political sphere? You know what will be a common denominator then? Eastern Orthodoxy.

Fellow Orthodox bros, please help me with this: what would the law be in an Orthodox society? Or, better yet, what is the kind of rule supported by Orthodoxy?
Furthermore, how can Christianity survive the future Islam conquest without a law designed for a society?

>>14812299
You need to go back.

>>14826683
Prayer beads are actually awesome. Try them before you criticize.

>>14826588
I don't think we can have an Orthodox Christian Society until after the Apocalypse. The best we can hope is for a traditionalist society in which the sovereign fears God, like in the Middle Ages, but that's about it. The Saviour Himself said that His Kingdom is not of this world, and I think any attempt would end hurting His mission more than helping. If you force Salvation upon people, it would just lead them away, look at what happened with the Catholics and the Protestant Reformation. That being said, I think we should try to resist things that are outright evil: abortion (but not other forms of contraception), sex change operations and gay propaganda in schools (but not making pederasty a crime for it would turn them into martyrs). We should not restrict freedom of speech, but instead, be more active in combating teachings with reasoning.
At the end of the day, we are not Islam in my opinion, and we shouldn't try to be. If Jesus would have wanted that, he would have said and done so. These are my two cents. I would like to hear what others think and correct me if I am wrong.

>>14826886
>not making pederasty a crime
What the fuck

>>14826886
But how can we accept the society which is the reign of the Antichrist? I feel that we should denounce it with all the might we can- once done, however, what can we offer as a replacement?

>>14826567
>The smart aleck atheists like you.
Wrong
>The only way forward for Romania is to make an Alliance with other Balkan countries in order to escape both the EU political sphere and the Russian political sphere?
>Agree with you, and we should never have left that kike Iliescu sell this country to the USA.
>You know what will be a common denominator then? Eastern Orthodoxy.
Unfortunately, cause the priests will drive us back to the Russians, because they are a greedy mafia only focused on profit, and will sell the country to whoever pays.
A secular, fascist state in the only way forward. God's business lies with every person individually, but society is man's to rule.

>>14826912
I mean, it could be a law on the books, but do you think that you could stop people from fucking themselves in the ass? That's my question. Look at the whole gay rights movement, and it began when the police tried to enforce the laws in place.

>>14826932
Well, that is what I struggle with as well, anything that we would try to enforce upon this world would be of the world, not from God. It would be man-made. I think the best we can is to have wise, God-fearing rulers, and that's it.

But this is not a realistic option at the moment, so the next best thing would be for us Orthodox to stick together, drop out of society as much as we can (I am thinking small, agricultural communities based on mutualism) and that's about it. There will come a time they will come for our Churches and our ancestral faith, and we can only pray for strength to defend and most likely die for Christ.

You shouldn't pray to Mary. What for? It's idolatry . She is not God

>>14827019
Υπεραγία Θεοτόκε σώσον ημάς. "They have not known, nor understood."

>>14826886
This is a nice post, anon, though i still think that the problem it's only going to aggravate if we just let them keep getting away with this sort of stuff. We need more restrictions. You can't combat them just with reasoning, and it's truly a shame because that would be ideal.

>>14827000
Ok, smart-aleck. Who would this secular, fascist state trade with? Who would be his military allies? The EU? I don't think so. And we don't want the Russians. I suggest you read about what's going on in other Balkan states. You will end up agreeing with me.
And I don't want a Theocracy either, look at what happened to the Catholic Church when it got involved in worldly affairs too much. What I said was that with other Balkan states, we share real cultural values, not empty bs like we do with the Western Europeans.

>>14827033
One way forward it would be that restrictions would come from the people who, as believers, will reject people engaging with the wicked. Homosexuals always existed but were marginalized. Same as with sluts. I don't say accepting them, but outright persecution will end up in their martyrdom, and we are back to where we are now.

Probably fascism (like my beer-bellied fellow Romanian is suggesting above) would be a possible way forward, but then we would be like the Jews in the Gospels. It's though, I admit. Just shows how corrupted the world is...

>>14827027
>For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)
>O This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name (Matthew 6:9).
>Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

>>14827007
>do you think that you could stop people from fucking themselves in the ass?
You meant sodomy, then, anon. Pederasty is raping kids.
If that’s what you meant, I guess that’s the best course of action. You are not lining up and shooting men because they like buttfucking each other but there’s no way you could even imply it is acceptable.

I, sometimes, wonder if riding the tiger would be acceptable as a Catholic. I know God is real, Christ is the way, Mary and the saints can intercede for us, and this world is temporary. But this world throws too much at us and I don’t know if I can handle it. Food, drink, women, money, and all the fine things in life. Can’t you use and consume them without being attached to them? Righteous living is hard, my dudes.

>>14816880
>I don't see why not
Because it's repeatedly and explicitly prohibited.
>There are many men bishops who do not carry out their duties properly and even abuse their status for personal gain or wicked things
Completely irrelevant.
>I would rather they have their marriages recognized
sodomy is a sin

>>14818759
>source: professor rosenstein told me all this guys, it's academically accepted just like trannies

>>14827210
Yeah, I meant sodomy. Fuck pederasty, those motherfuckers deserve to be hanged.

>>14827224
Anon, I suggest you read Vladimir Solovyov's "War, Progress, and the End of History: Three Conversations, Including a Short Story of the Anti-Christ".
I don't think you should think in terms of acceptable or not, but in terms of sins. Sins are what separate us from God. The more we sin, the further away we will be from God.

>Food, drink, women, money, and all the fine things in life
Who says that these things are not acceptable, if done right? Not every day is Lent, you can have a couple of drinks on the weekends with your friends (even Jesus did that), you don't have to be poor (unless you are a Franciscan) and it is recommended to have a good woman in your life. Excess of any of these is the problem. And I've seen it happen to those around me and myself: womanizing makes you bitter, too much drink turns into an alcoholic (and even before that you will feel like shit the next day) and an obsession with money will make you anxious and stressed way before you get the chance to be rich.

If you want to see Christians "riding the tiger" just look at all those evangelical mega-churches and their pastors, see what they are up to in their spare time and tell me if you still want to ride, brother?

>>14827224
> I know God is real, Christ is the way, Mary and the saints can intercede for us, and this world is temporary.
>Catholic
Ok, but how does that lead you to affirming universal jurisdiction and infallibility of a blatant apostate who literally heads the clown church.

>>14827224
>riding the tiger
I thought that meant something different, but it seems like this is just an edgy way of saying "just be a hedonist bro it doesn't matter anyway!". Also, Evola was retroactively refuted by Guenon.

>>14812264
>Help me, how I respond?
Ok, boomer.

>>14812264
>Help me, how I respond?
Start endlessly quoting Church Fathers. You do have their works memorized, right anon?

>>14827733
Have you read the Bible? Peter kept denying Christ over and over again until he realized what he was doing. Popes are not meant to be perfect.
Papal infalibility is a complex issue that you should read about, though.

>>14827749
I think (or I meant) it is living in a life-affirming way, but not actively seeking pleasure like a hedonist coomer. If the situation presents itself, you enjoy it. If not, you don't stress about it. The spiritual life is more important than anything else, but while we are down here, why not take advantage of it? As long as it doesn't distract you from the bigger picture.
Even though Evola is a meme, he's not a retarded, forced meme like Guenon is.

>>14827873
>If the situation presents itself, you enjoy it.
If my sister presents her anus for me to take, should I enjoy that? Who is to say no under the Evolan view?

>>14827873
>he's not a retarded
He larped about being initiated into deep mystical secrets while only having second-hand cursory knowledge of tradition. At least Guenon took his larp seriously and was actually respected in his traditional community as a Muslim. It's not very hard to see who was the true intellectual here.

>>14827873
Anon, I think you should go and talk to your priest about this. I think you are trying to justify sin, that it's ok as long as
>As long as it doesn't distract you from the bigger picture.
but here's the thing: It might not distract you today, it might not distract you tomorrow, but it will end up pulling you away from God. Little by little. Day by day. Seriously, talk to your priest.

>>14827904
>was actually respected in his traditional community as a Muslim
lmao I don’t know about that one tho

>>14827991
This kills me too. Deep down I know I’m trying to look for a loophole to sin my life away. Or I feel I’m too smart to let temptations get in my way, whether I indulge them or not - and yet, I’m rather weak to pull do such a thing unharmed. But the thought is there, in the back of my mind.
You are one of the good guys, anon. Thank you.

>>14827887
I don’t care about Evola, his prose suck ass and he is only an interesting figure in some sort of way. Riding the tiger is an interesting idea. Most likely a wrong one, though.
Incest is wrong, everyone.

>>14828066
Anon, I am happy to be of service. The thing is that we will sin, again and again. We might even sin in Heaven for all we know, but as my priest told me:
>It doesn't matter how often we fall, it's important to get back up again.
There is a story in Paterikon about two monks who were fasting in the desert. One night they go to the city, get drunk and commit a lot of sins. One of them says "Well, I am damned might as well make the most of it" and stays in the city. The other one repents and goes back.
Jesus died on the cross because we are weak pieces of shit and sin all the time. I attach you this prayer, read it in the morning and will put everything into perspective.
It's not about the journey, it's about the destination. God bless!

>>14828121
>we are weak pieces of shit
This phrasing wasn't well thought out. Weak, yes, but not the other part.

>>14828066
>>lmao I don’t know about that one tho
>In Cairo Guénon was initiated into the Sufic order of Shadhilites and invested with the name Abdel Wahed Yahya. He married again and lived a modest and retiring existence. “Such was his anonymity that an admirer of his writings was dumbfounded to discover that the venerable next-door neighbor whom she had known for years as Sheikh Abdel Wahed Yahya was in reality René Guénon.”[3]

>>14825484
>Ecumenism can only happen between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Why though? Didn't people have ecumenical councils where people prayed together with different faiths?

>>14827887
>If my sister presents her anus for me to take, should I enjoy that?
YES

>>14828201
>people prayed together with different faiths
That’s not what ecumenism used to be. It is what it is now, but ecumenism simply meant trying to unify the the East and West (Protestantism was considered a heresy and therefore not included).

>>14828231
>East and West
I mean Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics (I forget that literal autists post here so you have to explain everything)

>>14817920
but don't we have a duty to try to aid in their salvation?
in a lot of cases, people are like this because they were raised into it

>>14827873
>But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

>>14828183
>was dumbfounded to discover that the venerable next-door neighbor whom she had known for years as Sheikh Abdel Wahed Yahya was in reality René Guénon
Holy based... Truly an inspiring story for us to respect and love our neighbours.

>>14828478
>>14812264
OP (and all Anons), tell your boomer Protestants that Mother Mary worked a miracle on this board. Look at all other threads: they are filled with meaningless discussions, shit posting and retarded replies filled with anger and frustration. Then look upon our thread which was made under the icon of our holy mother:
>quality replies
>people helping each other
>questions that actually lead to better lived lives

I know this ain’t much, but to quote Cormac McCarthy “God speaks to the least of his creatures” and I must say that mutatis mutandes God works through the least of his miracles.
Praise to Jesus, the Holy Spirt and the Father!!! God bless you all, Anons!

>>14828711
You could say the same about Nāgārjuna and Shankara threads

>>14812264
>>Some point he says there are no saints because they are not in the Bible,

There's no divinely inspired table of contents in the bible either, to vouch for and verify which books belong in it. Protestantism + sola scriptura is a dead end.

Anyway for the question:
Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel."

Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19–31 indicates the ability of the dead to pray for the living. The intercession of the dead for the living is shown in 2 Maccabees 15:14–17; an intercession on behalf of Israel by the late high priest Onias III plus that of Jeremiah, the prophet who died almost 400 years earlier. "And Onias spoke, saying, 'This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.'


>>Then he tells me that Mother Mary is just a regular sinner and shouldn't be prayed to like we do.
Cringe.

>>14812264
He's right, stop worshipping Mary
https://youtu.be/Qh5gwQY-Bls

>>14829728
>linking Steven "the bible is your GOD!!" Anderson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xKvdU0qgrs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xKvdU0qgrs

>>14828711
Holy based...
Amen.

Based

>>14812534
>>14814353
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLOQUnw-FY

>>14812299

>>14817729
>godly things are just earthly things except god is doing them

Utterly Satanic.

>>14817920
>if they even know the Orthodox exist
>if they even knew who he was

Catholics don't even read the Bible...

>>14831264
This is the problem with Protestants. They are unable or unwilling to understand metaphors and analogies. In their eyes, everything is literal. This is troubling when you are dealing with a deeply esoteric text like the Bible.

>>14831285
You analogy is retarded because one, God cannot change his mind otherwise he would be mutable, and not God, therefore it doesn’t matter if you ask him yourself or ask Mary to do it for you, he has already decided from eternity everything that is going to happen; two, Mary is not omniscient because she’s not God (I mean even Catholics don’t think she’s a goddess right?), so she can’t hear you over the millions of other prayers that are being directed to her, and if she did she would still take an eternity to ask God to attend each wish because she is still human; and three because God is omniscient so he already knows what you’re going to ask before you ask it, so it’s pointless and superstitious to pray for saints to intercede for you.

>>14831312
In one post you implied
>there’s no free will
>time is linear in heaven
And while we are at it, you complained that I treated heavenly things as earthly here >>14831264, yet you are unable to comprehend that things are different in Heaven. You think praying to Mary is like talking to someone. You don’t even understand how prayer works or why would someone pray.
Come on, anon. You are better than this. Drop heresy. I’m not fucking with you. I sincerely recommend you, at least, try to approach a Catholic or Orthodox priest to talk about things. Whoever you meet would do a better job than I would do when it comes to dispelling your misconceptions.

I came to the shocking realisation that most Christians are not even spiritual recently. And I mean spiritual as in, there’s some sort of higher understanding, at least vaguely genuine relationship with God, actually viewing reality under the religious light and having it spur you on. Most I meet at church and so on are just that, they practice at church, but spirituality/ transcends reality isn’t a part of their daily conception of life or their fundamental sense of reality. Do people understand what I mean here? Religion isn’t something in my life that I occasionally partake in, it is my reality and my spiritual existence. I would literally not be the same person, I would literally not view the world out of my eyes, conceive of it the same way, act the same way, if I was not religious. That’s what being religious is for me

>>14831529
That's why Guénon deemed the Modern Catholic Church to be highly anti initiatic. The Clergy accepted modernity and was infected by it- the New Church endorses a kind of materialistic spirituality.

>>14831529
Yea I get you, but most people are like that but don't know it.

>>14831285
>>14831397

I'm not even the guy you were replying to, or a Protestant for that matter. I was merely saying that Theology based on Phenomenology, i.e. Catholic/Buddhist, is quite literally Satanic.

>>14831529
Salvation is for everyone. Few are called to the contemplative life, and the Church does not exist *for* those few.

>>14832456
>Salvation is for everyone.
The path is narrow, for many are called by few are chosen - Jesus Christ.

>>14832460
*but few are chosen*

>>14832456
>>14832460
However, that is not an excuse for the apathetic stance of the Church before Modernity- it's becoming no longer possible living in metropole without serving two masters.
Are the laity being saved only by saying "Lord, Lord"?

>>14832483
>However, that is not an excuse for the apathetic stance of the Church before Modernity
there was no "apathetic stance" of the church before modernity.

>>14832487
You are lying to yourself; there is. There's even an embrace, one should say.
Making myself clear, I'm talking about the Church of Rome.

>>14832496
>You are lying to yourself;
no i'm not, you're just making stuff up. The Church was extremely active in all social life from the smallest serf to the mightiest king before modernity. The entire year was based around the liturgical calendar for everyone.
>I'm talking about the Church of Rome
Yes, the Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

>>14832505
I used "before" in the sense of "in front of".
>Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.
The "New Church" is the Church of the Antichrist.

>>14832748
Are you a sede by chance?

>>14833151
No. I'm an Orthodox Christian.

>>14833609
why

>>14816527
He came to set the world on fire. Or do you think we should use the sword instead.

How to find god bros? Raised Baptist but fell away from the church. Feeling spiritually lost and dont know what to do. I just read philosophy and lift all the time. I need something more.

>>14812264
>A trollop whore that cheated on her husband and used "God used just the tip" should be prayed to.
lol

>>14834240
Showing an effort in looking for God means you are getting close to Him, anon. I’d recommend three things:
>Pray.
Learn how to do it right. In the meantime try to find your own rhythm - ask for guidance, wisdom, anything that’s good for your soul and the soul of others.
>Pray the rosary.
It’s easy to do. You will learn fundamental prayers by doing so. You’ll also learn about Christ and his time on earth. And believe me when I tell you that just like you get closer to the Father through the Son, you can get closer to the Son through Mary.
>Go to church
We can all shitpost most of the time and get serious every once in a while here, but nobody is an expert. Talk to a priest. Learn about Catholicism. Check Orthodoxy if you want. But develop a proactive attitude when it comes to reaching God.

Look for signs, too. If God exists, there is no such thing as a coincidence.

>>14815378
>>14833867
Are you sure Wahabi Islam isn't more your speed?

>>14834287
Thank you anon, god bless you

>>14815376
This was never answered. If God can make Mary sinless, then he can make Jesus sinless regardless of who gave birth to him.

>>14834349
>Implying the son is a creation

>>14834298
Are you sure Buddhism isn't more your speed?

>>14824178
Thank you for the kind thoughts and words anons. I'll take all of that into consideration, and who knows, maybe a saint's pilgrimage is in the future. God bless.

>>14834276
Kike detected.

>>14817920
>pluck a harp in McHeaven with Ronald McDonald

>>14812264
Orthodoxy (and catholicism) involves more than just the Bible. The answer, in essence, is that Orthobros don't believe in sola scriptura (because it's stupid). Scripture IS the word of God, but tradition is based.

A few things:
1) ask him WHY scripture is right--as well as at what point it became 'the word of God'. This ultimately exposes the forbidden and unspoken enormous error of Protestantism: that Luther himself removed many books from the previously established bible and wanted to remove many more. How can this possibly be reconciled?
2) In the early church days, the councils that eventually decided on canons were the same ones that were developing the traditions of the church. Why could tradition not be "the word of God", then, just as scripture is?
3) is scripture the sole place to discover/ discern truths about God? Why?

Protestantism eventually collapsed in on itself given enough time (as all heterodoxies do). I would advise, however, NOT to view this as an attack/ defend situation. Ask questions out of genuine curiosity and love-- if he insults you, let that evil end with you. Disciples cannot be easily made with argumentation-- but walk like a saint and he will follow you.


P.s., not a priest. For more qualified answers you should go see one. The blind can't lead the blind :)

Look, from my perspective I can't be persuaded to the protestant viewpoint for several reasons. First of all, the body and blood of Christ as presented by the Roman Catholic church is itself biblical, straight from Jesus himself. If you're going to say that you're a bible believing Christian, there's no way around it, and protestants pretty much universally disregard the one thing that makes the church. I don't need to defend Catholicism based on what I want to believe, I never chose the church because it's an aesthetic alt faggot identity. Frankly at times I'm terrified of the truth, but it's undeniable that Christ is King and he was, is, and ever shall be regardless of what our personal idea of good and nice is.

>>14831555

>Guénon deemed the Modern Catholic Church to be highly anti initiatic
>mainstream bad, obscure good

This is how the larper see's things