/lit/ - Literature

Butterfly really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wants my dick. She is looking forward to tomorrow

because /lit/ doesn't read anything but easily digestable short philosophy books nowadays

>>14807179
I shudder when I think of how this could’ve looked without the timely intervention of Engels. Marx is such a messy writer.

>>14807189
:3333

>>14807179
I'm about to break 500 pages, my edition (DigiReads) has about 660 pages. Just about finished the chapters on wages. I'll be honest, I've been reading this book since October, it's been taking me forever. I have been keeping very close notes and being sure to reread and retain so that contributes to how long it's taken. Don't regret the time spent at all, incredibly rewarding read, has motivated me to branch out into economics. I'm very convinced by Capital at the moment but plan to read Hayek and Hicks to try and challenge that. Big commitment though it's way more demanding studying this stuff while working full time than reading fiction.

That's a funny coincidence, I'm started reading it a few days ago. I'm on chapter 3 right now. So far the early chapters are pretty dense and kinda technical, but I enjoyed the dialectic development of value forms in chapter 1, and whenever Marx allows himself to be scathing.

>>14807179
Because it's a massive waste of time.

>>14807179
>society will inevitably progress to a stateless, classless situation

>>14807179
Reminder to all the rightoids /lit/ is a Marxist board

>>14807352
O0o0o so deep based Austrian cuck. Yes, because economic liberalism is sooooooo free and not totalitarian via suggestive power structures and deception. KYS retard

>>14807344
The first few chapters are tough but it's much smoother sailing after that and imo only ramps up to that difficulty again in the chapters on fixed and relative surplus value. Those first 3 chapters are very important though, the rest of the book is built on them.

>>14807370
>>14807361
>>14807354
>>14807352
please only post if you are going to discuss Capital, or anything substantial about political economy. there are enough low effort meme politics discussions on the internet if that's what you want to do

>>14807370
Socialism is the future. All capitalists and capitalist admirers will lose

>dude people should be able to not work yet still get paid the same as people who do
really Marx? Thats retarded

>>14807352
>They have socialism in the name, COME ON!
aw damn dude, got 'im.

>>14807382
its fine nobody will abuse it lol

or the other commie answer: we will kill anyone who doesnt work(Notably more insane than capitalism)

>>14807378
Fine. Labor theory of value is correct.

>>14807380
>0% homelessness
Seems too good to be true

>>14807393
NEETs are the gravediggers of capitalism as Marx said. NEETS deserve solidarity

>>14807380
>trusting Cuban statistics
Remind me...are people fleeing the US for Cuba or is it the other way around

>>14807402
Meanwhile 600k homeless in burger land.

>>14807371
Thanks for the heads up, this is my second go at it. Last time I dropped it for other things after getting through ch.3. Doing some pre-reading on dialectics (not that I have the firmest grasp of it) made it more enjoyable, and easier to follow. Well that and taking a lot of notes.

can't get past the first 3 chapters lmao. it's such a chore.

>>14807408
The embargo placed on Cubans takes a huge toll on them. They have to rely on tourism to generate revenue and it causes a disparity among those who work in the sector and those who don't. Many Cubans struggle due to the embargo and some just want out.

>>14807419
wow, I finally understand the nuances of political economics under capitalism!

>>14807425
>iF iT WAsNT FoR tHe EmBarGo CuBa WOuld bE #1

>>14807422
Need stimulants to do it and good background knowledge of ecomonic concepts and Marxism. Book is long and boring

>>14807397
What is the "money value" this refers to? As far as I know in Marxist economics value can't be measured directly, only estimated using price and some other indicators as a barometer, so it seems strange to be able to use it as an empirical metric here. "As labor input increases value created increases" also does not seem consistent with Marxist economics considering greater efficiency of production and availability of labor decreases the value of labor-power. This chart could show value produced decreasing with more labor input, but I'm not sure exactly how it's measuring either labor input or "money value."

>>14807419
cursed boomer ignorance

>>14807430
Number 1? Take meds and cope burger

>>14807433
>>14807435
Socialism does not work.

>>14807411
Notes are great, I can't imagine retaining much without notes and annotations. And yeah I had read Hegel before Marx so the dialectics wasn't too tough to recognize in itself but the particular way he describes value relations and the commodity form is definitely tricky but it's very satisfying once it clicks and you start to realize the implications.

>>14807435
Tucker Carlson is literally gearing up the be a second Hitler

>>14807437
Capitalism is unstable and contradictory. It's doomed

>>14807450
In what fucking sense

>>14807452
Capitalism is natural order, sorry.

>>14807452
and what do you think will happen after capitalism collapses lmao? Do you think it will be the time of rainbows and sunshine and fairness?

>"dude lets just step back and pretend human nature isn't real" the book

>>14807450
In the nationalist sense or the socialist sense?

Marx was retarded because he didn't understand supply and demand. Even college business freshmen are taught about that

>>14807456
>Appealing to the poor of the country getting fucked by the elite
>prioritizing above all else the creation of families as the purpose of men and women
>castigating the elite composed of press, academia, government agencies
>praising a capitalism that is harnessed by a state that cares for its people
>rejecting immigration in favor of the people already living in the country

The guy is practically outright natsoc

>>14807382
Source?

>>14807465
>duuuuude capitalism is human nature trust me

>>14807471
What? He never denied supply and demand retard

>>14807471
Except he literally discusses it in Capital, you know, the book this thread is about.

>>14807480
Are you trying to imply that the desire to assert oneself isn't human nature?

Read Hayek.

>>14807471
based illiterate retard

>>14807465
>revolt against oppression isn't human nature

>>14807495
>Read Hayek.

Yes read Hayek

>>14807504
He completely and utterly destroys socialism, not that he needed to, socialism is self destructive.

You know, if the people criticizing Marx actually bothered to read him, they'd find plenty to critique. Instead they just parrot shit they've heard others say because they think it makes them sound smart.

>>14807507
Imagine actually believing this.

>>14807513
You should read The Road to Serfdom, every single part of Socialism is completely obliterated.

Daily reminder that Socialism has a 100% failure rate.

>>14807179
What do you mean, we get a Capital/ Marx centric thread like once per week?

>>14807515
>socialism makes way for capitalism
>SOCIALISM FAILED
>capitalism makes way for socialism
>....................

>>14807380
You know, I also heard Ingsoc also had a pretty low employment rate. Makes one wonder.

>>14807526
You realize that book was written by a socialist right?

can one of you super saavy capital anons explain to me why negative yielding bonds exist?

>>14807410
Nice numbers game faggot, proportionally that’s nothing. And almost all of them can get jobs. It’s not like the job market is tight.

>>14807507
>>14807515
Life expectancy massively increased under Chairman Mao Zedong's administration:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4331212/

From Farm to Factory, the USSR industrial revolution:
https://eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/robert-c-allen-farm-to-factory-a-reinterpretation-of-the-soviet-industrial-revolution-1.pdf

>From 1929 to 1937, average wages of Russian workers quadrupled from 700 rubles to 3000 rubles. pg. 148
>Industrial output massively increased. Electricity output increased by an order of magnitude. pg. 92-93
>For a solid 30 year period, Russia was the fastest growing economy on earth. pg 7.

Socialism has worked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEwojLs0PFw&t=1s

Soviet citizens have calorie intakes comparable to that of Westerners:
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5.pdf

Cuba has the lowest doctor-to-patient ratio in the world:
http://www.socialmedicine.org/2012/07/30/about/cuba-leads-the-world-in-lowest-patient-per-doctor-ratio-how-do-they-do-it/#:~:targetText=Cuba%20leads%20the%20world%20with,ailing%20nations%20around%20the%20world.

Cuba is the only country on earth to have achieved green sustainable economic development:
http://www.radiohc.cu/en/noticias/nacionales/110412-cuba-only-country-in-the-world-to-achieve-sustainable-development

Cuba enjoys highest life expectancy in Latin America, a higher life expectancy than most first world countries in fact, and a higher human development index than the rest of the 'liberated free-market' latin america.

>>14807515
I already read it. It is pure idiocy.

>>14807352
Bourgeoisie are such fucking solipsists. Here's what he really means "In theory, socialism may wish to enhance freedom, but in practice, it would for most, but I would not longer have a legion of workers underneath me that provide me with wealth, and I want that."

This is not a refutation, it is an affirmation of Marxist philosophy.

>>14807471
You are retarded. I disagree with Marx, but Marx isnt nearly as retarded as you are he fully understood supply and demand.

>>14807515
what is the qualification of "failure?" Is it that the system gives way to capitalism? Is this then not a condemnation of capitalism and good reason to maybe try it again? Is it perhaps that it makes the lives of people under it worse? But capitalism is guilty of this charge on millions of accounts - the lives of many of the workers have in the past, and continue to be miserable in many ways.

I've never met a communist who could bench his bodyweight, you lack the manpower to stage a revolution

>>14807567
It's scientifically proven leftists are weaker

>>14807567
>I've never met a communist who could bench his bodyweight, you lack the manpower to stage a revolution

Bench 225. Try again

>>14807596
yeah but what if you get accused of being racist or sexist, a lot of white men in your pic

>>14807599
>Western woke capitalist starts panicking.

>>14807596
Lul had to cut to 179 from 210 in a month and still didnt get that weak. Your gang of 5'9 Adidas wearing fairies wont do shit

>>14807608
if you're a communist, let me ask you a question. Do you care more about class warfare or race/gender oppression? Would you prefer a racist white communist or a black female capitalist?

>>14807618
I just started lifting again after a break, I was benching close to 300 at one point

>>14807621
there's no such thing as a racist communist. Communism is exclusive to racism because racism is a form of competition, rather than cooperation.

>>14807628
Communism is about economic class. Proletariat versus capitalists.

Do you care more about that class distinction or race? Again white racist communist or black capitalist, who do you prefer?

>>14807621
Racism and sexism are not positives, but Capitalism is far more of a danger to humanity. Identity politics is a tool that liberal capitalists use to divide the working class.

>>14807628
racism is not competition it is an empirical claim, eg. this population is dumber on average than this other one. You can be racist and still a Communist, which is an entirely separate claim about how society should be structured

>>14807638
Attitudes toward race and sex are not within the purview of government responsibility. The role of government is to safeguard the material conditions of the citizenry.

>>14807649
very nice. And you yourself, being a communist, would you prefer a white male communist who thinks women and blacks are stupid, or a black female capitalist, who believes everyone is equal, but exploits her workers?

Can you pseuds stop arguing about stupid shit and discuss the text?

>>14807422
Good. The first 3 chapters are a filter for those who aren't truly interested in the subject. Nothing of value is being lost.

>>14807471
Such a shit and yet you got 4 (5) replies. Very sad!

>>14807638
Communism is about the disappearance of economic class.

>>14807647
>You can be racist and still a Communist
No, you can't. The impulse to invent a "natural" explanation for why some people are doing better under capitalism and some are doing worse is wholly the domain of those who want to reconcile themselves with capitalism and preserve it.

>>14807324
based anon, hopefully you're not lying.

>>14807528
A Democratic Socialist, but if Orwell had balls and understood his own book correctly, he'd be a Christian Monarch though, ascribing by Tolstoy's philosophy.

Oh my fucking God Jesus Christ.

Just get the fuck out of society, the lot of you, and into Cuba. Let's see how that works out for you. Already. All of you. Why are there communists in the West. We're so evil, gtfo!

It's just mindboggling. Here is a book written by the godfather of all morons whose life is worth spitting on his grave, and his opus has led to fucking genocide. I swear it man, as soon as you remove the Frankfurt School layer from over privileged kids defending applying some downy sociology nonsense to science, and you get to the "Marx was actually right" phase, it's like man I'd pay my local militia to forcibly remove you and have you create an unassisted commune in the middle of a national park.

What fucking planet do you live in? Poland just picked up fucking Portugal economically, a mere 30 years after it abandoned communism. We're talking about the natural resource rich neighbour of fucking Germany, the most affluent nation in Europe, needing 30 years to put their shit together in order to surpass the poorest rich nation in the West.

Holy crap, we humans really are apes deep down.

>>14807804
>Just get the fuck out of society, the lot of you, and into Cuba
I agree

>Let's see how that works out for you.
dead

>Why are there communists in the West. We're so evil, gtfo!
Because they hate the west, should be killed IMO.

>It's just mindboggling. Here is a book written by the godfather of all morons whose life is worth spitting on his grave, and his opus has led to fucking genocide.
Genocide is good, every society employs it whether implicitly or explicitly, generally by skill not race.

>I swear it man, as soon as you remove the Frankfurt School layer from over privileged kids defending applying some downy sociology nonsense to science, and you get to the "Marx was actually right" phase, it's like man I'd pay my local militia to forcibly remove you and have you create an unassisted commune in the middle of a national park.
Marx was right in a sense.

>What fucking planet do you live in? Poland just picked up fucking Portugal economically, a mere 30 years after it abandoned communism. We're talking about the natural resource rich neighbour of fucking Germany, the most affluent nation in Europe, needing 30 years to put their shit together in order to surpass the poorest rich nation in the West.
Because they're European, it doesn't matter what ideology they adopt, they're genetically superior than Nigger Area.

>Holy crap, we humans really are apes deep down.
We're moor apish than apes.

>>14807804
>>14807830
holy cringe

>>14807833
retard and coward.

>when you enter this thread and realise that /lit/ full of Americans who get their political talking points from Youtubers

Terrible work because Marx was working with abstracts rather than real models. It would be nice if we can just do shit all every day and still be able to have a working economy but its just wishful thinking

>>14807533
Just little sprinkles of info
1 Mao Zhedong killed 50 million people. But wait, I guess you're denying that eventhough he explicitly admitted he was ready to sacrifice 50% of China's population in order to achieve communism.
2 USSR industrial revolution had them sitting on a bunch of rusting equipment while USA and Europe were developing the internet. Because they associated progress with Steel.
Oh, and the farmers. Good one. What happened to them in Ukraine? thought so. What happened to them between 1918-21 under Lenin? thought as much. The NEP? Mhm.
3 Money in the USSR meant nothing as all workers had access to was make up currency. Actual money was reserved to high ranking officials and the subversive CPs in the West.
4 Communism has worked only in the sick mind of mentally ill people, and actually has though if you happen to be called Fidel Castro, who in words of his ex bodyguard "lived for 30 years like a Renaissance monarch" while his people struggled to fend off starvation. Otherwise you could just explain me how you make an economy work without using free pricing and exchanges. Actually, better go explain that to the USSR luminaries who for 70 years couldn't find out.
People have fled socialist regimes for as long as they've existed. What further proof do you need. If it can't compete, it can't compete.

>>14807850
>watches one Sargon of akkad video

>>14807842
>>When the left discovers the genetic fallacy but they don't know it's a fallacy.

>>14807804
>no argument
>absolutely no argument
>ad hominem and threats
>correlation equals causation
My diagnosis: hasn't read Marx, has no intention of engaging with marxist thought. Doesn't belong in this board.

>>14807857
>> Is right by means of some socialist version of the holy spirit, and is so high on his own fart scent he thinks he can refute info with a Sargon reference

>>14807867
thank you kind sir, here's mine
>> goes around attempting to decide who get's to speak.

A socialist! Look, it took me way fewer words than it did you!

Marx did not understand economics

>>14807804
Poland was never communist. Also Frankfurt School is thoroughly anti-Marxist.

>>14807846
Models are abstractions you moron.

>>14807804
Worldwide human exploitation, big banks and oligarchs dominating governments, ecological catastrophe, the siphoning of wealth straight to the top, 32 trillion in offshore accounts, 162 billionaires have as much wealth as the bottom half of the entire world.

To put that 32 trillion into perspective 1 million seconds is 12 days, and 1 billion seconds is 31 years. How much is 32 trillion? 1 million years.

We have to come to realize the wool that has been put over the eyes of working people everywhere.

Capitalism killed at least 100 million in the 20th century

>>14807912
Oh look - an anonymous incel on the internet thinks he understands economics better than Karl fucking Marx. Hilarious.

>>14807913
What you just said about Poland must be the most ridiculous string of words I've read in some time. I mean, I'm assuming you're so deep in communist autism all efforts would be futile.

Hello where is the discussion of Capital

>>14807946
I went to school for it. Marx was literally a hobo who lived in a library and couldn't feed his family

>>14807946
Yeah well, my fucking piano understands that better than Marx judging by the proposals he made. Still waiting for the 3rd volume where he lays out why marginalism is wrong. Right.

>>14807969
>marginalism
Yikes.

>>14807966
Nobody in this thread has read Marx, yet everyone is an expert on Marx

>>14807942
Dude, let me put this softly and subtly:

ADMITTED.SYSTEMATIC.GENOCIDE.OF.YOUR.OWN.PEOPLE.SPANNING.DECADES.

Maybe like so? I do not give one single flying fuck if rich people have a mountain of money my friend. I care if my fucking mother is being sent to fucking Syberia or to an Uyghur re-education organ harvesting facility. For real, hard to believe but what do you know huh.

>>14807968
Congratulations on wasting 4 years studying neoliberal bullshit propaganda.

>>14807962
I can think of many more ridiculous ones, for example: "Poland used to be communist".
>I mean, I'm assuming you're so deep in communist autism all efforts would be futile.
If knowing what communism is qualifies as being "deep in communist autism" then yes, I'm very deep into it.

>>14807972
> marginalism bad
dis gon be good

>>14807982
You will be the first to get the rope, bootlicker.

>>14807990
t. neoliberal brainwashing victim

>>14807987
hahah or wasn't he. Cause of dead of his sons? What did he work as? What was his trade? What did he live off? Who, rather.

>>14807992
Yeah, I mean your army of overprivileged bourgeoisie wankers vs actual freedom fighters, I'm shaking here in the free world. Go eat dirt, soviet delicacy.

>>14807996
t. "marginalism bad" special needs tournament participation trophy recipient

>>14808000
And yet a moment ago you were so concerned about the safety of your mother.

>>14807179
Because history has proven him wrong about pretty much every one of his idiotic predictions.
This is not particularly surprising, since the author knew nothing about economics, and somehow even less about industry.

>>14807989
I guess you're right, 'cause if it fails it automatically becomes non-communism right.

I mean, do you guys get paid to think like that? It must be painful. Like: "You must forget who Gomulka was!" "The Polish Worker's Party wasn't a Soviet puppet!"

>>14808014
Dude, learn to read. I would be had I been living in the USSR. And so would you.

>>14808015
Marx was right about everything. You would know that if you had actually read him.

>>14808030
... And if you additionally had no problem with him having no fucking clue about how to fix the world's ills. Diagnosis is one thing, treatment is a field in its own.

>>14808030
>design full retard economic system
>people try it
>tens of millions starve to death despite massive food aid from the west

very clearly correct amirite

>>14808030
You mean like how socialism would first take off in developed first world countries before the final phase of becoming fully communist?
Oh wait, it was only ever appealing to third world retards, which caused nothing but mass genocide and starvation before finally reverting back to capitalism.

>>14807380
this. burgers will get absolutely assblasted by carona because muh wall street profits. they literally don't even want to test people for coronavirus or disclose the real case numbers in burgerland because the stock markets would dump even harder than they did this week.

>>14808037
kek & tfw tens of thousands of middle class kids just don't fucking get it

>>14808042
Yeah absolutely it's not like it has a 2% death rate, kills mostly the elderly and a stock crash would send thousands of jobs to hell. People in this thread clearly understand where priorities lie.

>>14807982
You're confused with 20th century authoritarian governments. History is not an excuse to saying nothing should be done about the present. Competent experts of Marx will tell you, yes the last century was terrible and there's no doubting that but the marxism of Lenin is over. There should be rethinking from the bottom up for new solutions. There's no 20th century bandaid to apply, that experiment is over. These problems will require international cooperation no doubt about it. Putting hands over the eyes and plugs in the ears are definitely not the solution either.

>>14808042
You're literally talking about China, not the US.
The stock market isn't falling because of coronavirus cases in the US, it's because the entire communist shithole known as China is completely shutdown, which provides many core components to a lot of American manufacturing industries.

>>14808037
You have never read Marx.

>>14808051
>There should be rethinking from the bottom up for new solutions.
I agree, which is why even though there was no reason to take Marx seriously in the first place, there's absolutely zero excuse for taking him seriously now.

>>14808054
That's the dumbest thing I ever heard.

>>14808051
>capitalist world lifts billions out of poverty and gives you massive leisure time
>marxists spend this time to worry about how bad capitalism is
>meanwhile all their experiments result in mass genocide
>but we still need to try one more time

If there is one thing capital does wrong, it is improving the lives of midwits like you *too much* ....

>>14808054
which involves pulling from all resources and taking the critique that Marx put of capitalism seriously

>>14808064
Imagine being this thoroughly brainwashed.

Just recently saw that apparently David Harvey has recorded a new 2019 version of his lectures on Capital.
To anybody that is having difficulty making their way through it, it helped me quite a bit to watch his lectures as I went along.

I'm also reading it now for the first time and I'm surprised by how easy a read it is. There are literally pop-sci books you can pick up right now that are way more convoluted than the way Marx presents his arguments. Occasionally there will be some paragraphs that make me scratch my head, probably because I haven't internalized everything he's trying to say. For example, can anyone explain what exactly is meant here?
>If then, on the one hand, finished products are not only results of the labour process, but also conditions of its existence, their induction into the process, their contact with living labour, is the sole means by which they can be made to retain their character of use-values, and be realized.

>>14807467
>>14807456
Not him but many /pol/acks and political radicals notice that Tucker is ver third positiony on many things. Take a look at his segment on elizabeth warrens plan for economic patriotism. He essentially states that the GOP are dopes who dont do something if it works in practise, only if it works in theory. He claims they are out of touch and are afraid to violate some obscure principle of Austrian economics which is why McConnel is complaining about Trumps tarriffs to mexico even though crossings are down. He essentially advocates for extreme pragmatism and an end to the false left and right dichotomy. He has done segments on wall street equity firms and their monstrous anti worker stances and he has done ones on amazon and walmart. He is cleqrly positioning to run in 2024 or 28. He will be a pragmatist, pro worker, big state, anti corporation, nationalist spirit, futurist, champion of the people type figure. Make of that what you will.

>>14808051
Thank you, it all boils down to that. You guys simply cannot live in a world where imperfect people put in place imperfect systems hoping that hey, maybe I'll live to see another day and make this world a tiny little bit more livable for my children. No. We need to introduce the "should" particle. The supreme bullshit concept where it's assumed that we can all just drop what we're doing (keeping a precarious but functioning system together, one where most of the able can eat with minimal Darwin involved) and somehow still be around tomorrow when the neverending discussion begins on what the this-time-for-real perfect utopia should look like.

There's no place for shoulds here, dude. If anything gets done (like abolishing slavery) fucking thank your god or whatever it is you pray to. It's hard enough already without you psychopaths telling me what/when/how to do shit in order to survive and try to be happier. You've killed your body count credit already. Whatever you wanna try, try it on yourselves now.

You niggers know that you can read Marx without supporting totalitarian state socialism, yes?
To quote Negri's definition of communism:

Communism is:
>‘the collective struggle for the liberation of work’
>‘the assortment of social practices leading to the transformation of consciousness and reality on every level: political and social, historical and everyday, conscious and unconscious’
>‘the establishment of a communal life style in which individuality is recognized and truly liberated, not merely opposed to the collective’
>‘the singular expression for the combined productivity of individuals and groups (“collectivites”) emphatically not reducible to each other...the process of singularization’

>>14808066
But his main critiques are all retarded.
>hurr people who own the machines don't work
The only people who would ever believe this are people who have never worked.

>>14808077
Tucker is an actual rightwingers. The GOP are lizardmen that care only about bootlicking corporations but spread some nationalist propaganda along the way to pretend they're in any way shape or form humans deep down - they're not.

>>14808071
dude, where're your numbers? 'cause his do check.

Oh wait, yet another wanker in love with his fart scent.

>>14808064
Come on Pinker even Marx praises capitalism for that don't be naive. But it's obviously a broken system and its own inherent contradictions will cause its own departure.

>>14808090
any day now

>>14808084
This is way more believable that anything Marx ever wrote, just sayin'

>>14808080
it's like institutionalized sloth

>>14808080
Marx doesn't even discuss "communism" in Das Kapital. All these moronic /pol/ crossposters ITT are shadowboxing themselves because they have no clue what Marx actually wrote about.

>>14808093
It has a crisis every 10 years and always needs rescuing. It seems convenient to lean on history but only for your own supporting arguments.

>>14808117
>It has a crisis every 10 years and always needs rescuing.
Not really. Even the Great Depression was barely a scratch on economic growth when you look at 1900 to today.

>>14808122

>>14808117
You're right. Let's start killing our own people for wrongthink, create a currency no one trusts and producing steel. That will save the day.

OR, or, we can all be thankful we weren't born in NK

>>14808128
>hurr

>>14808131
You sound like a total pussy.

>>14808142
>real men want to die in gulags

>>14808142
Glad to see you commies remain witty.

>>14808015
Why would Marx be the craziest marxist and not like Althusser

>>14808135
This graph is mostly bullshit though. Just a few of the major problems:

(1) It isn't measuring the same thing over time. In 1950 work such as childcare, babysitting, accounting work on taxes, and thousands of other economic roles done off the books by mothers at home don't get counted in GDP. This results in about a 35% increase in GDP that is artificial.

(2) The CPI is intentionally underestimated to inflate growth. Another 35-50% inflation since WW2.

(3) The US is expropriating massive amounts of foreign goods rather than being an exporter, which is a negative externality in that it is creating competition and costs down the road.

Correcting for just these three things and you're looking at real growth of somewhere around 25% rather than 300% since WW2.

>>14808154
Stop whining, you insufferable faggot.

>>14808135
You've just been caught. GDP is only a part of the story, but it doesn't say that the needs of the individuals in society have been met.

A chart to add with that one.

>>14808189
I don't think you even know what your chart is Advances in technology means that jobs have become easier than ever, which is what increases productivity; not that people are somehow working 200% as hard.

>>14808202
chart is saying*

>>14808202
Jesus christ does it have to be spelled out to you. It doesn't matter how productive it gets because you're going to get your static slave wages and you're going to like it. And where are the gains from the increasing productivity going? Welcome to marxism and enjoy your stay.

>>14808224
It means that you agree to a contract where you still make a certain amount of money no matter how bad the company does that quarter, instead of them docking your pay if they don't meet their profit goals.

Reminder pic related solved Marxism and it is an utter waste of time to read any Marxist besides him.

>>14808480
the only thing marxism and solved have in common is overpopulation

>>14808021
>The Polish Worker's Party wasn't a Soviet puppet
Of course it was. Who says it wasn't?

>>14808073
>For example, can anyone explain what exactly is meant here?
If finished products were merely outputs of the labour process, then their particular useful qualities would have no necessary connection to the labour process itself. But since we know they're also inputs, then we also know their useful quality lies precisely in their role in this or that labour process.

>>14808079
>There's no place for shoulds here
You're right. There are no categorical "shoulds" in Marxism.

>>14808080
Negri is an anti-Marxist retard, but thankfully state socialism is an oxymoron going by Marx.

>>14808108
>Marx doesn't even discuss "communism" in Das Kapital.
Yes he does. At least read the first chapter to the end before you speak about the content of the book you dumb moron. And the book is called "Capital" in English. What's with all the clueless faggots using the German title? It's like they're openly advertising their stupidity.

>>14808135
You can literally see a crisis every 10 years on this chart. You've proven their point you literal cuck.

>>14807179
Kys faggot ur going to hell for worshipping degenerate ideology

National socialism is the way of the future

>>14808887
Lol no

>>14807874
>we should put communists in concentration camps
>the communists are oppressing me!
>get's
Back to facebook, you don't belong here

How are volume 2 + 3? I've only read 1. Been putting it off because engels is really boring compared to marx.

>>14807197
Exact opposite in my opinion. Well not that Engels is 'messy' but he isn't as good or as engaging as marx to me.

>>14807471
Why do people do this?

>>14808015
Name his exact predictions and what he got wrong.

>>14808967
Wrong about ltv, falling rate of profit, and capitalism failing

>>14808982
What about his view of constant capitalist crises (business cycles in orthodox economics), absolute improvement in material conditions for the working class but relative conditions getting worse (increasing inequality), increasing centralization of capital, globalization, constant rate of unemployment for a subset of the population (reserve army of labour). These predictions have been correct, no?

>>14807750
Thanks anon, not lying but understand your suspicion, this place is a cesspit. First time on here in about a year and this thread is reminding me why I left.

>>14807850
>>14807804
it's funny to me how much this resembles the hysterical s*yboy caricature people love to associate with socialists

>>14807966
I tried anon >>14807378 but the people who have never opened the book took over the discussion immediately.

>>14808926
Mhm good luck with that, thank god 4chan isn't reddit.

All the braindead commies ITT make me realize how overrated a board /lit/ is

>>14807419
based

Well since this thread is dead and rotten I think I'll join in desecrating the corpse.

>>14807533
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4331212/

Life expectancy in Maoist China was dramatically lower than every nation surrounding in East and Southeast Asia

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?time=1950..2015&country=TWN

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/HKG/hong-kong/life-expectancy

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/MAC/macao/life-expectancy

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/KOR/south-korea/life-expectancy

>From 1929 to 1937, average wages of Russian workers quadrupled from 700 rubles to 3000 rubles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_early_Soviet_Russia

>Cuba has the lowest doctor-to-patient ratio in the world

Some experts have stated that official statistics provided by the current government should be treated skeptically.[4][5]

Berdine, Gilbert; Geloso, Vincent; Powell, Benjamin (2018). "Cuban infant mortality and longevity: health care or repression?". Health Policy and Planning. 33 (6): 755–757. doi:10.1093/heapol/czy033. PMID 29893849.

>Cuba is the only country on earth to have achieved green sustainable economic development:

Cuba's economy is orders of magnitude smaller than even haiti's.

https://tradingeconomics.com/cuba/gdp

>Cuba enjoys highest life expectancy in Latin America, a higher life expectancy than most first world countries in fact, and a higher human development index than the rest of the 'liberated free-market' latin america.

That's why Cuban's risk life and limb to go to the US, Hispaniola, Mexico etc.
As of 2017, there were 1,311,803 Cubans in the United States
There are 11 Million people in Cuba, nearly 1/10 of all Cubans don't want to live in Cuba.

>>14807628

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Soviet_Union

>>14808950
>How are volume 2 + 3? I've only read 1. Been putting it off because engels is really boring compared to marx.
They were written by Marx.

>>14809673
Maoist China, Stalinist Russia, and Cuba were/are capitalist.

>>14809700
Most of the communists in the USSR were either in a gulag or in some ditch. That is before the II World War. Afterwards they weren't at all. Anyway, any racism there was wasn't perpetrated by them.

>>14807450
absolutely, he's fused nativism with anti-capitalist rhetoric, he's going to be very dangerous for the left soon

>>14807324
Personally what convinced me to abandon Capital's economic arguments was Schumpeter's criticism of the concept of perfect competition

>>14809831
Thanks I'll check it out

>>14807435
>>14807435
i don't watch tucker but what is he suggesting here? does he propose that food/housing/utilities be publicly owned so people won't need welfare anymore to pay the private companies that own these things?

>>14807344
>but I enjoyed the dialectic development of value forms in chapter 1
Read Rubin. Chapter 1 only introduces the analytic derivation of value. Unless of course you were using the word "dialectic" more colloquially.

>>14808189
This graph is based on household wages.

>>14808178
>It isn't measuring the same thing over time.
This is a strength of measuring GDP per capita or PPP instead of, say, manufacturing GDP. Marxists rely on the circularity of SNLT for singling out manufacturing capital as an absolute measure of "rate of profit."
>which is a negative externality
That's only true if you hold that manufacturing capital is the only "real" capital. Circular.

>>14809024
None of these things have a necessary teleological relationship to the conclusions presupposed by Marx, nor were they observations originally made by Marx.

>>14810186
Engels in a letter to Marx talks about "dialectical transitions", the "dialectic of the argument" and about the ability of "thinking dialectically" being required for unaided understanding of the text, all this with regards to the first chapter. But I guess Rubin would know better.

http://www.hekmatist.com/Marx%20Engles/Marx%20&%20Engels%20Collected%20Works%20Volume%2042_%20Ka%20-%20Karl%20Marx.pdf p. 382

>>14810271
>Marxists rely on the circularity of SNLT for singling out manufacturing capital as an absolute measure of "rate of profit."
Marxists give absolute zero fucks about measuring anything or doing any other thing economists typically do. They once and for all rejected political economy with Marx's critique of it.

>>14810271
nigger you have no idea what you are talking about lmfao

>>14810580
>Marxists give absolute zero fucks about measuring anything or doing any other thing economists typically do.
I suppose that's why David Harvey and half a dozen Marxists in these threads insist upon bringing out the same three graphs measuring the "global rate of profit" again and again.
>>14810581
niggers tongue my anus roflmao XXXDDDDE

>>14810732
Harvey is not a Marxist. He's a fraud who can't even understand the basic points of book he's been lecturing on for who knows how many years. https://critisticuffs.org/texts/david-harvey
Nor are some random retards posting images 4chan. How naive can you be?

>>14810804
Who are the authentic Marxists? Surely not Marx, not with all that factory data.

>>14810858
Marx never used data to prove anything, just to illustrate a point already arrived at.

>>14810963
You're contradicting yourself.

>>14810963
>>14810963
You're contradicting yourself. As a matter of fact, I identified SNLT as the "point already arrived at" by Marxists.

op is a nigger

>>14810988
The SNLT can't even be measured.

Its an interesting theory that Marx posits, and though I disagree with it as a whole, it ceratinly has some good points that shoukd be taken into consideration. The thing that bothers me is that even in this thread you see idealogues who care not for the theory really, tbey just wanna be part of some kind of “movement,” or “anti-movement.” To imply that it is either capitalism or socialism, with no in between is a foolish notion.

This is a long way to say: mixed economies are the best.

>>14810997
Prices, which (supposedly) fluctuate around an exchange value abstracted from SNLT can (allegedly) be measured though, which is why Marxists will select sectors with high organic compositions like manufacturing whenever they're trying to demonstrate trends that they believe to be indicative of contradictions in the mode of production (TRPF, etc.).

>>14807179
It’s at least better than le memefesto
I’ve watched lectures on scholarly analysis of capital and they literally can’t get over how intelligent Marx is.
Personally, I will start reading it soon. I don’t buy into Marx based on commiefesto, found it disagreeable

>>14807437
>Food metaphors

>>14807354
>implying the hivemind plan isn't real

>>14807419
It all makes sense now! Thanks for redpilling me fellow anon! Cheers! ^_^

>>14807738
>Good. The first 3 chapters are a filter for those who aren't truly interested in the subject. Nothing of value is being lost.

No you! I'll reattempt it eventually. idk, could be my next book to read. just to prove you wrong psued-weirdo.

>>14808967
His predictions about class consciousness never came true (at least not yet at any rate).

>>14808051
You know what? Your right. It’s a new century and it’s tine for a new start. Hey maybe I’ll try doing the thing mussillini and the mustache guy were doing, but try to be a little bit better. It was horrible in the 20th century, but I think I can get it done a lot cleaner. It’s time for a new hope guys.

>>14811666
Yes, I can confirm that prices can be measured.
If by "demonstrate" you mean "clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence" (dictionary), then this is not what Marxists do, because the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is not proven by measuring prices but by examining the laws of the capital. If you mean simply "illustrate", then the incorrectness of the illustration doesn't have any bearing on the incorrectness of the law being illustrated.
I can't speak to the correctness of any of the illustrations of the TRPF based on empirical data, because I haven't seen any Marxists attempting to provide such illustration, and I never cared about attempts made by economists enough to verify them.

>>14812800
>could be my next book to read. just to prove you wrong psued-weirdo.
That's exactly what I meant by not being truly interested in the subject. People pick up the book for retarded reasons like "I'll prove this rando on 4chan wrong" and then they are surprised when it turns out reading it bores them, blaming it on the book itself.

>>14807352
>natsoc
>bad
fuck off

Just skimmed through posts in this thread. It is self evident that 90% of you have not read anything by Marx beyond maybe the Communist Manifesto. /lit/izens never cease to amaze me with the stark contrast between their inflated opinion of themselves and having near nothing to show for it.

>>14809750
>Maoist China, Stalinist Russia, and Cuba were/are capitalist.

>it doesn't count as soon as everything goes to shit, every single time

>>14813340
It doesn't count as soon as it's clear it isn't socialist. Here are documents from the 1950s in which communists deny the socialist character of China and Russia:
http://www.quinterna.org/lingue/english/historical_en/maos_china_certified_copy.htm
http://www.international-communist-party.org/English/Texts/Russia/Structure/Introduc.htm

>>14813321
It's still better than /leftypol/. I know that doesn't mean much, but if you're genuinely expecting something actually good on an active public forum then you're just naive.

Communism is for brainlets

>>14807179
It reads like shit and Marx's historical materialism is fucking asssssss. Fuck that nigger kike for flooding history with this inhuman garbage.

>>14807179
I'd appreciate an answer that isn't a shitpost or pseudery. What kind of value can a non-Marxist get out of reading Capital?

>>14814713
11 dollars